We know that AI is going to transform the world. However, as with any new innovative technology, there are challenges we will have to overcome. How do we ameliorate AI bias, misinformation, and other ethical issues that may arise in this new era?
Join Raj as he engages in a captivating conversation with Nick Thompson – CEO of The Atlantic, author, entrepreneur and thought leader on all things tech – examining and addressing ethical AI issues and how different sectors are approaching these challenges.
Learn more about Nick’s perspective for a greater understanding of AI ethics, governance, economics, and the future of democracy.
Links Connect with Nick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholasxthompson/
Visit Nick's website: https://www.nickthompson.com/
Visit the The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/
Connect with Raj: https://www.rajverma.com/
Visit SingleStore: https://www.singlestore.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:00:02):
This is Into the
Singleverse with Raj Verma
Unfiltered conversations about the latest
trends and the tangible effects of
real-time data on pivotal industries, our
daily lives, and the future of our world.
(01:00:32):
ago and you know AI ethics and uh was a
big part of a conversation as well. What
are your views on on ethics AI governance
and compliance in a regulatory body etc?
(Silence)
(01:00:52):
(Silence) (Silence)
(01:01:17):
(Silence)
(Silence) (Silence)
(01:01:42):
(Silence) (Silence) (Silence)
(01:02:21):
(Silence) (Silence) (Silence)
(Silence) (Silence) (Silence)
(01:02:56):
(Silence) (Silence) (Silence)
(01:03:22):
(Silence) (Silence) (Silence)
(01:03:47):
to be less likely to have committed a
crime than any other race or a person of
any other race because of the inherent
biases and the Jesse incarceration
records that that the country has. So
100% I completely agree that there are so
so many inherent biases that are already
(01:04:08):
prevalent in the data sets that we use to
train the LLMs that you're right that job
is a very secure job with the future.
(01:05:46):
One of the things that I was part of at
Davos was talking about the global
regulation and the three centers of those
global regulations are going to be the US
and I'm sure you spend time with RTS or
die and EU and China and I think it was
Brad Smith of Microsoft who put it very
well that I don't think any one of those
(01:06:08):
three want the next world war to be
started by machines or our identity to be
misused by machines.(...) However the
difference between the EU manifesto and
the Chinese manifesto is the difference
between Socrates and Confucius. You know
basically how do you want to regulate
society and with America and you know
(01:06:30):
sort of the home of the free and land of
the brave sort of concept of freedom it's
just very different regulations. Are you
hopeful that there would be a global
regulation around AI in the
next 12 months? (Inaudible)
(01:07:02):
Yeah I tend to agree
with that. Yeah (Inaudible)
(01:07:29):
I tend to agree and more about what's
happening as you call one of the most
consequential years in journalism which I
tend to agree with you but you're also
uniquely qualified based on some of the
books you've written about economics and
just your your training the economics of
AI specifically where do you see the
(01:07:53):
economics of AI play out in the next
three to five years and there is the next
question which is you know your views on
the circular economics of the valley are
fascinating to me so love love to hear
about that as well yeah
(01:08:46):
I also see, you know, more unrest coming,
right? You will have job categories that
are transformed, wiped out. You will have
people needing to switch their
professions, evolve their professions at
a faster rate than before. That can be
hard depending on your organization, how
it's structured.(...) So I see a lot of I
see AI causing a lot of economic
(01:09:07):
displacement and unrest.(...) I do think
I think this is one of the most
interesting questions in AI. I do think
that net net, it will end up being more
of an advantage for people who make less
money as opposed to people who make more
money.(...) You know, we saw with the
last Internet revolution that it mostly
benefited the wealthy. I don't think
that'll be the case. I think, you know,
(01:09:28):
clearly people who are wealthier will
have access to better models, better
tools, direct lines to engineers.
But in general, I mean, we're seeing this
with language, just the fact that it will
allow everybody to communicate in pretty
good English and reasonably well written
English is much more of an advantage for
people who are in the developing world
than relatively well off Americans. So I
(01:09:50):
do think in general, it will increase
income inequality. It will decrease
income inequality, make the world more
equal.(...) So watching
Yeah that's the circular economics of the
(01:10:12):
valley that article that he wrote I was
fascinating I was interested in what made
you drive that and what are your views on
the valley and its future.
(01:11:32):
commitment, work ethic, all the things
that work together there, venture capital
funding, you know, all those things. It's
incredible that it continues to stay
there. I think it would be better for
America if it spread out. I have no doubt
about that. I love, you know, the work
that, say, Steve Case is doing to try to
make tech companies spring up everywhere.
I have no doubt. I actually think it
would be better for the tech industry. It
would be better for the tech industry if
it was dispersed, right?(...) And there
(01:11:53):
were senators and congresspeople who, you
Yeah no you're spot on because everywhere
I go like if you see Israel which I'm
really fascinated by the kind of
innovation that happens in Israel yeah I
think the government involvement in
Singapore to create innovation hub is
(01:12:13):
just probably some of the best actions
taken anywhere in the world right London
is of course trying every other city
Austin within America happens to try and
everywhere I go they seem to feel that I
have that secret answer to what makes the
valley tick and I actually don't and but
(01:12:34):
it's just it just continues to go on and
on and everywhere that you go even Israel
they look up to the valley
as this absolute building ground for
innovative ideas and where things
actually start to germinate and then grow
and even India if you really see a lot of
(01:12:55):
these you know companies that are
emerging from the US ultimately come to
the US and the valley to prosper so the
germ is Israel or or India but when they
come to the valley that's really where it
seems to have you know sort of yeah grow
(01:13:39):
yeah and by the way before that Google
from Russia you know and Facebook I mean
you know at least Eduardo from Brazil I
mean it's just it's just fascinating yeah
yeah it's and it's just it's fascinating
but anyways the one thing that I do want
to talk about which I've been fascinated
for the last probably year and a half and
(01:14:01):
I picked up that Atlantic issue where you
spoke about the the why wouldn't say
potential but if that was a Trump term
what would it look like and I think that
was a fascinating fascinating issue
you're a political activist before we go
(01:14:23):
into the upcoming elections what's in
your mind the correlation
between AI and democracy
(01:14:50):
AI and democracy is, of course, you know,
I should have mentioned this when you
mentioned the risks, but this is one of
the great questions for the next year,
which is can a democracy survive when you
have no idea whether you're talking to a
human or a bot? And pretty soon on
Twitter, on Reddit,(...) wherever you
(01:15:11):
are, maybe even on the phone, but that'll
take a little bit longer. You won't know,
you know, whether you're talking to
somebody or whether you're talking to a
bot and, you know, what will that do to
trust? You also won't know whether
information was created by teams of
humans or by teams of bots.(...) And the
(01:15:31):
most frightening scenario is just we come
to trust nothing. And there are parts of
the world where you don't trust anything,
right? Where you,(...) you know, somebody
offers you a deal, you don't trust them,
right? And there are parts of the world
where somebody offers you a deal and
shakes your hand and you completely trust
it even without a signed document. And
what in the places in the world where you
can trust people,(...) everything's a lot
(01:15:53):
simpler, a lot easier, and works a lot
better. And in the place of the world
where you can't, everything's a lot
harder.(...) And what I fear is the
internet becoming a place of just total
non-trust, where you don't know who
you're talking to. You don't know whether
you're being grifted at any moment.
And the question will be – and you also
don't know if anything is true, right? So
if,(...) you know, I think in this
(01:16:14):
presidential election, we'll certainly
have believable deepfakes.
And we'll also have real things that are
dismissed as deepfakes.(...) And we just,
you know, you won't know.
And so there was a paper that I read
recently about persuasion.
And what they did is they got a bunch of
(01:16:37):
political debates where everybody can
argue either side, right? Should you get
rid of the electoral college? It's easy
to see the arguments. Yes, it's easy to
see the arguments. No.
(01:17:39):
(Silence) (Silence) Now, scary times,
like you rightly said, there's a lot of
opportunity, a lot of things that, you
(01:18:02):
know, we need to fear.
Let's go into something which is a little
more rapid fire of sorts, and I wouldn't
put you on the spot at
all, but book recommendations.
(01:18:43):
(Silence) Oh, that's fascinating.
Favorite running shoe?(...) (Silence)
(01:19:25):
Okay. Favorite guitarist?
(Silence)(...) Jimi Hendrix. Yeah.
Favorite live concert that you have been
(01:19:46):
to or would like to go to?(...) (Silence)
By the way, have you been to the sphere
in Vegas?(...) Oh my God, I happen to do
that.(...) (Silence) Oh, that must be
(01:20:09):
fun. Favorite person you'd like to have
dinner with? Or the favorite person
you've had dinner with? And next is that
you would have liked to have dinner with?
so, you know, my professional mentor, who
I've had dinner with many times, is David
Remnick at The New Yorker, who has been
just a...has taught me all kinds of
wonderful things about journalism, about
(01:20:30):
how to work, about how to be efficient. I
often try to think of when I'm in a
complex situation.(...) There are
actually two people at The New Yorker
who...there are a whole ton of people at
The New Yorker who I thought were great
mentors, but David Remnick and Pam
McCarthy were two people who just taught
me everything about how to work. I have
had the most extraordinary run of bosses
(01:20:52):
through my life. Charlie Peters at the
Washington Monthly, Link Kaplan at
Legal Affairs. You know, I mentioned
Chris and Bob Konellwert. I've had just
extraordinary bosses through my run. A
person who I would
like to have dinner with.
I wish I could, as an adult,(...)
either...I wish I could have dinner with
(01:21:14):
my father when he was my age and
understand more about his life. You know,
obviously I knew him extremely well. He's
passed now, you know, but I wish when
I've had the experiences I've had and
I've learned the things I've had, I wish
I could talk to him about his childhood.
And about
(01:21:34):
Oh, what an answer.(...) Favorite
vacation location? A spot?(...) Oh,
great.(...) Favorite sport to watch?
(Silence)
(01:22:00):
Playhouse, yeah.
(Silence) Oh, that's great. Favorite
(01:22:36):
wine? My favorite question.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's great.
It's been fascinating.
(01:23:26):
This is Into the
Singleverse with Raj Verma
Unfiltered conversations about the latest
trends and the tangible effects of
real-time data on pivotal industries, our
daily lives, and the future of our world.
(01:00:32):
ago and you know AI ethics and uh was a
big part of a conversation as well. What
are your views on on ethics AI governance
and compliance in a regulatory body etc?
(Silence)
(01:00:52):
(Silence) (Silence)
(01:01:17):
(Silence)
(Silence) (Silence)
(01:01:42):
(Silence) (Silence) (Silence)
(01:02:21):
(Silence) (Silence) (Silence)
(Silence) (Silence) (Silence)
(01:02:56):
(Silence) (Silence) (Silence)
(01:03:22):
(Silence) (Silence) (Silence)
(01:03:47):
to be less likely to have committed a
crime than any other race or a person of
any other race because of the inherent
biases and the Jesse incarceration
records that that the country has. So
100% I completely agree that there are so
so many inherent biases that are already
(01:04:08):
prevalent in the data sets that we use to
train the LLMs that you're right that job
is a very secure job with the future.
(01:05:46):
One of the things that I was part of at
Davos was talking about the global
regulation and the three centers of those
global regulations are going to be the US
and I'm sure you spend time with RTS or
die and EU and China and I think it was
Brad Smith of Microsoft who put it very
well that I don't think any one of those
(01:06:08):
three want the next world war to be
started by machines or our identity to be
misused by machines.(...) However the
difference between the EU manifesto and
the Chinese manifesto is the difference
between Socrates and Confucius. You know
basically how do you want to regulate
society and with America and you know
(01:06:30):
sort of the home of the free and land of
the brave sort of concept of freedom it's
just very different regulations. Are you
hopeful that there would be a global
regulation around AI in the
next 12 months? (Inaudible)
(01:07:02):
Yeah I tend to agree
with that. Yeah (Inaudible)
(01:07:29):
I tend to agree and more about what's
happening as you call one of the most
consequential years in journalism which I
tend to agree with you but you're also
uniquely qualified based on some of the
books you've written about economics and
just your your training the economics of
AI specifically where do you see the
(01:07:53):
economics of AI play out in the next
three to five years and there is the next
question which is you know your views on
the circular economics of the valley are
fascinating to me so love love to hear
about that as well yeah
(01:08:46):
I also see, you know, more unrest coming,
right? You will have job categories that
are transformed, wiped out. You will have
people needing to switch their
professions, evolve their professions at
a faster rate than before. That can be
hard depending on your organization, how
it's structured.(...) So I see a lot of I
see AI causing a lot of economic
(01:09:07):
displacement and unrest.(...) I do think
I think this is one of the most
interesting questions in AI. I do think
that net net, it will end up being more
of an advantage for people who make less
money as opposed to people who make more
money.(...) You know, we saw with the
last Internet revolution that it mostly
benefited the wealthy. I don't think
that'll be the case. I think, you know,
(01:09:28):
clearly people who are wealthier will
have access to better models, better
tools, direct lines to engineers.
But in general, I mean, we're seeing this
with language, just the fact that it will
allow everybody to communicate in pretty
good English and reasonably well written
English is much more of an advantage for
people who are in the developing world
than relatively well off Americans. So I
(01:09:50):
do think in general, it will increase
income inequality. It will decrease
income inequality, make the world more
equal.(...) So watching
Yeah that's the circular economics of the
(01:10:12):
valley that article that he wrote I was
fascinating I was interested in what made
you drive that and what are your views on
the valley and its future.
(01:11:32):
commitment, work ethic, all the things
that work together there, venture capital
funding, you know, all those things. It's
incredible that it continues to stay
there. I think it would be better for
America if it spread out. I have no doubt
about that. I love, you know, the work
that, say, Steve Case is doing to try to
make tech companies spring up everywhere.
I have no doubt. I actually think it
would be better for the tech industry. It
would be better for the tech industry if
it was dispersed, right?(...) And there
(01:11:53):
were senators and congresspeople who, you
Yeah no you're spot on because everywhere
I go like if you see Israel which I'm
really fascinated by the kind of
innovation that happens in Israel yeah I
think the government involvement in
Singapore to create innovation hub is
(01:12:13):
just probably some of the best actions
taken anywhere in the world right London
is of course trying every other city
Austin within America happens to try and
everywhere I go they seem to feel that I
have that secret answer to what makes the
valley tick and I actually don't and but
(01:12:34):
it's just it just continues to go on and
on and everywhere that you go even Israel
they look up to the valley
as this absolute building ground for
innovative ideas and where things
actually start to germinate and then grow
and even India if you really see a lot of
(01:12:55):
these you know companies that are
emerging from the US ultimately come to
the US and the valley to prosper so the
germ is Israel or or India but when they
come to the valley that's really where it
seems to have you know sort of yeah grow
(01:13:39):
yeah and by the way before that Google
from Russia you know and Facebook I mean
you know at least Eduardo from Brazil I
mean it's just it's just fascinating yeah
yeah it's and it's just it's fascinating
but anyways the one thing that I do want
to talk about which I've been fascinated
for the last probably year and a half and
(01:14:01):
I picked up that Atlantic issue where you
spoke about the the why wouldn't say
potential but if that was a Trump term
what would it look like and I think that
was a fascinating fascinating issue
you're a political activist before we go
(01:14:23):
into the upcoming elections what's in
your mind the correlation
between AI and democracy
(01:14:50):
AI and democracy is, of course, you know,
I should have mentioned this when you
mentioned the risks, but this is one of
the great questions for the next year,
which is can a democracy survive when you
have no idea whether you're talking to a
human or a bot? And pretty soon on
Twitter, on Reddit,(...) wherever you
(01:15:11):
are, maybe even on the phone, but that'll
take a little bit longer. You won't know,
you know, whether you're talking to
somebody or whether you're talking to a
bot and, you know, what will that do to
trust? You also won't know whether
information was created by teams of
humans or by teams of bots.(...) And the
(01:15:31):
most frightening scenario is just we come
to trust nothing. And there are parts of
the world where you don't trust anything,
right? Where you,(...) you know, somebody
offers you a deal, you don't trust them,
right? And there are parts of the world
where somebody offers you a deal and
shakes your hand and you completely trust
it even without a signed document. And
what in the places in the world where you
can trust people,(...) everything's a lot
(01:15:53):
simpler, a lot easier, and works a lot
better. And in the place of the world
where you can't, everything's a lot
harder.(...) And what I fear is the
internet becoming a place of just total
non-trust, where you don't know who
you're talking to. You don't know whether
you're being grifted at any moment.
And the question will be – and you also
don't know if anything is true, right? So
if,(...) you know, I think in this
(01:16:14):
presidential election, we'll certainly
have believable deepfakes.
And we'll also have real things that are
dismissed as deepfakes.(...) And we just,
you know, you won't know.
And so there was a paper that I read
recently about persuasion.
And what they did is they got a bunch of
(01:16:37):
political debates where everybody can
argue either side, right? Should you get
rid of the electoral college? It's easy
to see the arguments. Yes, it's easy to
see the arguments. No.
(01:17:39):
(Silence) (Silence) Now, scary times,
like you rightly said, there's a lot of
opportunity, a lot of things that, you
(01:18:02):
know, we need to fear.
Let's go into something which is a little
more rapid fire of sorts, and I wouldn't
put you on the spot at
all, but book recommendations.
(01:18:43):
(Silence) Oh, that's fascinating.
Favorite running shoe?(...) (Silence)
(01:19:25):
Okay. Favorite guitarist?
(Silence)(...) Jimi Hendrix. Yeah.
Favorite live concert that you have been
(01:19:46):
to or would like to go to?(...) (Silence)
By the way, have you been to the sphere
in Vegas?(...) Oh my God, I happen to do
that.(...) (Silence) Oh, that must be
(01:20:09):
fun. Favorite person you'd like to have
dinner with? Or the favorite person
you've had dinner with? And next is that
you would have liked to have dinner with?
so, you know, my professional mentor, who
I've had dinner with many times, is David
Remnick at The New Yorker, who has been
just a...has taught me all kinds of
wonderful things about journalism, about
(01:20:30):
how to work, about how to be efficient. I
often try to think of when I'm in a
complex situation.(...) There are
actually two people at The New Yorker
who...there are a whole ton of people at
The New Yorker who I thought were great
mentors, but David Remnick and Pam
McCarthy were two people who just taught
me everything about how to work. I have
had the most extraordinary run of bosses
(01:20:52):
through my life. Charlie Peters at the
Washington Monthly, Link Kaplan at
Legal Affairs. You know, I mentioned
Chris and Bob Konellwert. I've had just
extraordinary bosses through my run. A
person who I would
like to have dinner with.
I wish I could, as an adult,(...)
either...I wish I could have dinner with
(01:21:14):
my father when he was my age and
understand more about his life. You know,
obviously I knew him extremely well. He's
passed now, you know, but I wish when
I've had the experiences I've had and
I've learned the things I've had, I wish
I could talk to him about his childhood.
And about
(01:21:34):
Oh, what an answer.(...) Favorite
vacation location? A spot?(...) Oh,
great.(...) Favorite sport to watch?
(Silence)
(01:22:00):
Playhouse, yeah.
(Silence) Oh, that's great. Favorite
(01:22:36):
wine? My favorite question.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's great.
It's been fascinating.
(01:23:26):
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