May 9, 2024 • 41 mins
Jim Swift, Sr. Editor of The Bulwark, joins us for a wide-ranging conversation about what's happening today. Will Donald Trump "sell" fake elector seats to raise money? What does it take to make it to the shortlist for VP? And, if decline is a choice, why are so many GOP leaders making that choice?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Is it just me? Or havewe all lost our minds? It's a
question I've been asking myself on repeatfor the last eight years, and I
know I'm not alone in that.Is it the politics, is it the
culture? Or am I just gettingold? Hi? I'm Jennifer Horn and
I'm a former Republican strategist and partyleader turned independent sanity activist. I decided
(00:24):
to do this podcast so we couldexplore these questions. I'll bring experts to
the table from politics and media andculture. We'll have raw, insightful conversations
with the clear goal of getting tothe bottom of it all. One way
or another. We've all lost ourminds, and I hope you'll join us
on the journey to find them again. Hi, this is Jennifer Horn and
(00:47):
you're listening to Is it just me? Or have we all lost our minds?
And it's another one of those weekswhere I think maybe we have all
lost our minds. The primary focusthis week seems to be a former porn
actress and her former president. Idon't know what to call him. I
don't think he was her boyfriend exactly, but that's what we're all listening to
(01:10):
and learning more and more about andyet there's a lot of other things going
out in the world. I wantto make sure that we don't lose focus
on the bigger picture, on what'shappening in our democracy today. So I'm
really very happy to have our nextguest with us. I know you're all
familiar with him. He's a senioreditor at The Bulwark, formerly of The
Weekly Standard, and many times ifyou listen to any of our faces on
(01:36):
Twitter, then you've heard his voicebefore, mister Jim Swift. Jim,
thank you so much for being withus today. Thanks Jennifer. And I
think the term you were looking forwas accidental paramour. Yes, a former
porn actress and her accidental paramore andformer president of the United States. Who
ever thought, Jim, that wewould see ourselves in this situation? And
(02:00):
I remember the deep emotion I feltback during the Clinton years, you know,
when everything was coming out on himone at a time at a time,
and then his that he lied underoath. You know, I did
not have sexual relations with that woman, and still they did not think that
he should be he should be,you know, impeached for that. And
(02:23):
never did I think then that wewould experience what we are now. It's
crazy. Yeah, I mean Iwas younger, not that I'm saying you're
older, but oh no, Iacknowledge how much older I am. I
was younger when all that went down, but I was, you know,
and I had to write a paperon who I supported in the nineteen ninety
(02:46):
six election and why I was gettingpolitical at that time. And I later
worked for a member of the SenateJudiciary Committee, and we had ten Stars.
We called it the Book of Starand it was the original Star Report
to be written binder and we wouldgo and we would read through it on
Fridays, and you know, weall thought that was an anomaly, and
(03:07):
you know, that was just kindof like a low point in American history.
Now we kind of look back sortof fondly on nineties era scandals.
And then ken Starr, I thinkthis is a good lead into what you
wanted to talk about. My repeatingof Charles Krawdhemmer's decline is a choice,
yes, And you know, KenStarr fallen from grace. Bill Clinton kind
(03:30):
of in the background, and almostremember fondly by Democrats, even though he
did lie under oath and commit impeachableoffenses, but by comparison to the current
reality. Well, it's hard toeven make a comparison. It's so bad,
(03:50):
it's so different. And boy,do I miss Charles Kronthomer. You
know, we could use his voice, but you do you know, decline
is a choice. And I've seenyou you know, you've said it before,
and I just saw it the otherday, yesterday or the day before
on one of your Twitter posts aboutformer Senator Kelly AA. I'd kind of
like to get into that a littlebit more because one of the things I'm
(04:13):
really worried about, and I triedto express this before on some of these
podcasts, is that the American peoplehave become lazy defenders of democracy to the
point where I'm not sure if everybody, if most people even have a sense
of what the personal connection to themis between themselves as a citizen and democracy
(04:39):
as a principal. And then whenI see your decline as a choice,
I think that really kind of speaksto the same thing. Yeah. I
mean, I will admit upfront,having served in the US government in the
Senate alongside as a staffer around KellyAI, I was never impressed by her.
She was a a joiner, afollower. You know, Lindsey kind
(05:02):
of in the same mold as LindsayGraham, but not nearly as sycophantic.
So but he used declined as achoice, which comes from Charles Crowdhammer.
May he rest in peace. Igot the book that his son edited,
which is so old at this pointyou can get it at as steel if
you don't own it and you're listeningto Jennifer Horne's show. Not owning it
(05:25):
is criminal. In my mind,you should just go by it and reread
these essays. It will make youmiss Charles Crowdhammer. But you know,
I kind of want to keep thisphrase that he's associated with coining as it
relates to Republican politics alive, becauseKelly Ayott knows better. She may not
have been a swashbuckling John McCain orMitt Romney kind of original willing to really
(05:51):
risk their career to speak truth.You know, she goes along, she's
a party woman, but she knowsbetter. And I've used I've used this
phrase a lot. It's kind ofbecome one of my Twitter memes. And
I'm glad that you kind of catchthe shorthand those who know know it's always
(06:12):
fun to look at the comments andand see like decline, like you know,
they don't get it's it's it's shorthandfor they know better, and they're
choosing this action, and they're choosingthis path willingly. Kelly A lost to
Maggie Son, and she could havejust gone on and done something, but
on some boards, never been taintedreally by being known as super Trumpist,
(06:35):
right like Jeff Flake, Like JeffFlake. She could have just ridden off
into the sunset and done something.But now she wants to come back.
She wants to be governor governor,which might which might have been an aim
all along. I don't know whyUS senators want to become governors, but
you know, my native home stateof Ohio has Mike Dwine who was a
(06:56):
US Senator at one point, andimpressive one at that. I have to
say, and I mean to bitemy tongue for New Hampshire till we see
what happens up there. Yeah,and you know, I mean it's it's
now is a time for truth tellingand honesty. And another race I'm looking
(07:17):
at is Larry Hogan. Oh yeah, yeah, you know, Larry Hogan
kind of was a fence sitting antianti Trumper writing in dead people ghosts to
be president. I mean, veryunserious stuff. But he did a lot
of good things for Maryland and he'srunning again and it's going to be very
hard. We'll find out whose primaryopponent or his opponent is after the Maryland
(07:41):
primary ends next week. But ifI lived in Maryland, I'm not sure
I could vote for Larry Hogan.To be honest with you, I don't
because of the I don't know ifhe's got mentality. Well, if it
comes down in the Senate, dependingon the makeup of the Senate, and
(08:01):
I'm getting way into the weeds here, just like as a former Senate staffer.
So I'm just thinking, if thechips are down and it all comes
down to Larry Hogan's vote, wouldLarry hookund do the right thing? And
I haven't necessarily seen even in hiskind of I wouldn't even say acts of
defiance against Trump. I mean,it's more like he was a pest to
(08:22):
Trump. But like nowhere did heever really go to pokem in the eye?
Right? I mean, he's hadhad some flashy videos. He might
run for president, he might not, you know, kind of hearken Reaganism,
but could Larry Hogan be trusted todo the right thing? I'm not
sure, you know, when itcomes to democracy specifically, because you had
said were lazy defenders of democracy.I think that might even be too charitable
(08:43):
for a lot of people. Thereare a lot of people who, well,
they won't admit it. They're fascistcurious, they're fascist friendly. They
like the strong man. You know, they all think curious. That's a
fascinating turn. Yeah, you know, they love really speaks to the moment
in which we live. Yeah,I mean they love Victor or Bond.
(09:05):
You know, they are interested inthe idea of a theocracy. They believe
fundamentally in their heart of hearts thatAmerica is a Christian country, which no
it's not. It may be thefriendliest come for Christians and the ability to
practice Christianity as you see fit.I'm Catholics, so you get what I'm
get what I'm getting at there ofour lost brothers and sisters. But yeah,
(09:31):
we're not being I think that,not that I'm thinking you're being too
too charitable in a way that iswrong. There are some people who just
don't really see how scary after thetwenty twenty election is and how close we
came to a literal coup, andthey're trying it again now. The advantage
(09:52):
is Trump world is filled with unseeriousclowns in the legal world. I mean,
name a Trump lawyer that a haslasted or b is a really good
lawyer, right, right, wherehave they actually accomplished their goal? They
usually being a Trump lawyer isn't reallyabout being a good lawyer, right,
(10:13):
It's about being a Trump loyalist ora Trump you know speakerphone as Trump.
Yes, you know, we're beinga pr face on television, like Olena
Haba who comes from the parking lotindustry. You know, what's your name,
Jenna Ellis? You know Jenna Ellis? Right, went to like a
like law school that's like a stepabove a diploma mill. And these lawyers
(10:39):
don't last. You know. GeorgeConway, my now colleague, was kind
of like a Trump lawyer in thevery very early days and quickly got off.
He's got a great show at theBulwerk where he explains all of this
courtroom drama which I don't watch orpay granular attention to, because I know
George Conway will tell me. AndSarah doesn't score us I think George is
tri treaking all of this. It'sa great public great great public service,
(11:05):
but we are at this reckoning point, and I think you really got something
that people don't realize the seriousness ofthis. They think that twenty twenty was
kind of like a farcical joke.And that's because they're not they're not paying
attention. You know, you andme, who worked at high levels of
politics, I think of the Capitolas a second home. I was not
(11:26):
there on January sixth, but Ipaid very close attention to it because I'm
a member of the Congressional Press Corps, and so it's really I've paid very
close attention to this, as hasWashington. But outside of Washington, people
just kind of shrug at it,and they're trying to do it again,
(11:46):
and they don't have the good lawyers. I mean, there was an aren't
now that Lara Trump is the cochair of the r n C. So
when I worked at the r nC, Ann Wagner, a former ambassador
and future congress and current congresswoman,was the co chair of the r n
C. Now it's Trump's butter andlaw. So what do they do?
They fire there? They're actually seriouslegal counsel. Now, the price of
(12:09):
admission in Trump world is you haveto either accept or not speak out against
the big Lie. If you ifyou are just saying it's not true,
it's all a lie. There's nothingto prove any anything Trump's gone over the
century in court. It's not aconspiracy, it's just the facts. And
uh, you don't have a place. So he had one good lawyer at
(12:33):
the r n Z and he waselated that that guy got pushed out.
So Charlie, Yeah, Charlie's gone. Yeah, Charlie sp Yeah. And
you know, I'm not saying he'sa saint, but like if you if
if you were, if you wereto ask me to like rank the pro
Trump legal minds that exist out there, he'd be near the top, right,
(12:54):
no question about it. So,uh, you know they're they're they're
shooing this. The problem Charlie Spied'sfor the rn C, and his cycle
is that he might have been proTrump, but he was anti big lie.
He was anti Steel, you know, and he refused to you know,
like we say, refuse to bea speakerphone, you know, a
megaphone for that particular conspiracy theory.Yeah, and so that's why he's gone.
(13:20):
So now it's just a clown show. They're attempting it again with the
Jeffrey Clark types of the world.You know, the people who know where,
know where the guardrails are, knowwhere the bright red lines are,
and just have just decided that they'rethey're color blind and you know, not
listening, and they will jump overwhatever line. Trump says, that's the
(13:41):
real scary part about this next election. And you know, we have sort
of not we Democrats, unfortunately,I think have over relied on this is
the most important election of your lifetime, dating back to like two thousand and
four. But this really is.And some people think that because it's been
(14:03):
said every election at a prey midterm, you know, every special election,
that it's crying wolf. But it'strue. This presidential election is going
to be the most important one.So let me let me jump in here.
As before we get off of thern C, it wasn't on our
list of things to chat about,but this is something I've really tried to
(14:24):
kind of get out there, andthere's very little interest in hearing about it.
The R and C has been restructuredunder Trump and Lard Trump in these
past couple of months to be anelection disruption operation. Anytime that the rn
C says election integrity, they're talkingabout election disruption. And I don't think
(14:45):
that people understand what they are actuallyplanning for when they talk that way.
The attorneys that they have brought in, the staff that they've brought in,
the field people that they are bringingin are all people who they talk about
election integrity, you know, andhaving their hands on the ballots. They're
(15:07):
talking about, you know, havingan invasive presence like we have not seen
before from a party in the actualprecinct to precinct to precinct voting you know
operation. And if nothing else,from twenty twenty, they have learned an
awful lot about what they can getaway with and what they can't get away
(15:28):
with. And you know, Iam convinced that the whole purpose of the
RNC right now is to be preparedto challenge ballots to get legitimate votes overturned
to you know, accidentally lose ordestroy or misdirect or whatever. They are
(15:50):
not trying to make sure there isa legal, honest election operation. That
is the opposite of what they're actuallyplanning for. And they're doing it right
under our noises. Well, Ithink they're being pretty transparent about it too.
I think there the RNC now servestwo purposes, right, one which
I'll get to in a second.But the first one is funneling money to
(16:11):
pay for Trump's legal defenses. Right. It is basically now kind of Trumpet
run Ponzi schemes over the years,you know, like Trump Network consultants,
you know, rich get rich quickschemes. This is now a money grabbing
Ponzi scheme to get money to payfor these bad lawyers that keep quitting,
you know, in the suits.The other one is you accurately described,
(16:34):
is the RNC. I mean whenI worked there in two thousand and four,
were four years out from the twothousand election, and we had lawyers
in Missouri where I was working theretoo, we had one at the courthouse
for people filing lawsuits to be awareof all this kind of stuff. It
was not really like meant to seekcontroversy, but to like it was,
(16:56):
you know, like a demilitarized zone. The lawyers right there in the christ
Yeah, you know, filed filedsomething to get in the junction to keep
polls open later or something. Now, Yeah, at the heart of that
that is kind of disrupting and whatnot. But now they're much more active.
The other point of the RNC asyou think back to all of this stuff,
like with Ruby Freeman and Ruby Giulianiand all the tapes and all the
(17:21):
like people trying to like and theyactually did access to about her records in
Georgia, the RNC is like aB fifty two filled with cluster bombs that
are like legal cluster bombs, andthey're just dry. They're flying over and
dropping them on every state in theselaw in these lawyers are going to be
lunatic lawyers. And there was aguy down in Texas who ran for office
(17:45):
who had a handlebar mustache. Hewas like thirty four and he's like a
true believer, had a ridiculous name. We're going to be seeing hundreds of
these guys out there, and they'reall going to be Laura Lumer types with
video cameras and we're going to haveI think, unfortunly, do you remember
the Detroit Convention Center controversy and they'relike these are secret ballots and everything else.
(18:07):
We're going to see that everywhere becausenow Trump's team is kind of like
a raptor trying to escape from anelectrified cage. They've tested the week spots
and they know where the weak spotsare. If they gang up and they
get critical force on those week spots. But that's the legal strategy. The
pr strategy will be to flood thezone with more controversy than a normal person
(18:32):
can keep up with. And thatis the goal. That is why we
started the show with people are reluctantdefenders of democracy because they can't be bothered.
If you were to grab a morethan average and interested voter, someone
who actually listens to cable news orradio news or something just at random,
and ask them to explain the Detroitvoter controversy and why it was bunk,
(18:56):
they couldn't do it. And that'sjust I agree with. Of like twenty
controversies, at least in the twentytwenty election, we're going to have two
hundred plus of those. They're goingto be in Ohio, they're going to
be in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, Florida. They're gonna even
be in red states. They're goingto do because the controversies in red states
(19:17):
will be easy to go along withbecause they'll have local leocal officials who will
go along with this conspiracy even ifit's complainly false. Right, So I
think about the fake elector scheme,think about the fake elector scheme from last
time, that people should not assumethat that's gone away. You know,
I don't know what what, Idon't know how it manifests in twenty twenty
four yet, but they're you know, the idea of being able to choose
(19:41):
your own electors regardless of who wonthe state. Trump is. Trump is
just I think that sometimes we havebecome desensitized to just how bad he is,
to just how ill and unbalanced heis, and to how willing he
is to be openly evil in hisintent and his actions. Oh, you
(20:03):
want to get even darker than that. So the facial electors, some of
them are facing jail time right becausebecause they committed crimes. Donald Trump in
the r n C is probably goingto come up with a scheme where people
can donate money to become fake electors. Jesus, because you know these people
would not only love to get partyto the opportunity to become instant celebrity martyrs.
(20:26):
Buy your buy your way in We'regoing to see way more fake electors.
I wouldn't even even be surprised ifwe saw fake electors in states where
Trump wins handily, like Montana,you know, because then they're gonna be
like, see, it's so,it's it's it's true. Even Montana is
alternative electors. It's gonna I don'tI don't think we are prepared. And
I know this isn't on the topicof AI. AI is going to really
(20:49):
mess with this election too, ButI don't think we're prepared for the amount
of circus we're gonna get. We'regonna get way more than we wanted this
hotel. This is the year.I keep saying, this is the year
when democracy is going to truly betested in a way that it wasn't in
twenty twenty. Regardless of January sixth, it just and as long as Trump
(21:11):
is on the playing field and gettingthe kind of now they're saying, supposedly
some of his numbers are shifting withall everything that's been happening in Manhattan,
and that you know that some ofthe you know, he's going to start
losing support. I don't see ityet. I don't. I don't see
it on the ground. I don'tsee it in the polls. I don't
see anything dramatic happening yet. Andwe know that the document case is going
(21:34):
to be pushed off, and Ijust think, I think that we are
going to be tested this fall ina way that we have not been before.
And I don't know where we land. No, I don't either.
And it said it's going to beIt's going to be a lot and it
could go a lot of ways too. I will say I offer this prediction
(21:56):
everyone. I think at the endof the day, Joe Biden wins by
even bigger margins than he did intwenty twenty. You know, the makeup
of who gets him there will bea little bit different. He's gonna lose
some Dems, He's going to losesome one time Biden voters, but I
think he's going to gain some others. I think it's gonna be a pretty
(22:17):
clear win. Doesn't mean it's notgoing to be messy. I think it's
gonna be very messy, and Idon't think we're prepared for how messy it
is. Agreed, and I thinkthe big key for Joe Biden is he's
got to win by enough that judgesand courts that are going to ultimately,
you know, inevitably be involved inall of this, you know, will
be forced to confront and confirm youknow, the truth and the actual outcome,
(22:41):
and not to get into the weedsand you know, demographics and all
for twenty twenty four right now.But I think for in spite of all
the insanity of Trump and the trialsand everything that's happening there, I think
in the end that women who hasstrong feelings about bodily autonomy are going to
(23:03):
end up being and it won't bejust soccer moms or just you know,
college educated white women or I thinkwhere I think that I really believe that
that is going to be a greaterinfluence than people think it is right now.
Again, because we're all so caughtup with the drama in a Manhattan
courtroom right now, and it's hard, you know, is it a drama
(23:26):
or is it a drama tee?I'm not sure sometimes, but yes it's
a tragedy. So as long aswe're going down this path, and we
do have a few minutes left still, let's talk about the GOP vice presidential
sweep sweep steaks and the craziness inthere in that. You know, I
(23:47):
can't even think who else is onthe list. I'm so the only thing
we've heard about for the past weekis Christinoam's shooting her dog, killing her
dog, her puppy, And Imean her interviews this week promoting her book
are just bizarre. It's like she'sin a different headspace from like she's in
(24:07):
a different on a different planet.Her tone, her way, her face
looks, and then the crazy thingsthat are coming out of her mouth.
Well, you know, I mean, Christineam has gotten all of the attention
because she's really seeking it, right, Yes, but I remember when Christinome
in the early two thousands was thisfresh face, pretty young congress were in
(24:29):
and go back and look, andI've tweet it was going to be the
new voice, the new face ofthe GOP. I don't need I don't
mean to make this about appearance,but she is unrecognizable from the woman who
lived across the hall from some ofmy colleagues and they had, you know,
they're like, oh, she's sopretty, like she lives across the
all unrecognizable and like the trumplification.If you if you look at Kimberly Gilfoyle,
(24:52):
Laura Trump, Yes, Ronna McDaniel, Romney yes, and her the
out of the hair color, thehair style, the face, the lips,
all this kind of stuff. It'slike they're all becoming It's like we're
approaching this singularity. It's not justthe mindset. It literally is a look
too well, and that's coming.Let me comment on that quickly before you
(25:15):
move on from there too, becauselike you, it's I don't want to
make it about yeah, I don'twant to make it about appearances. I
don't care how much you weigh orwhat your nose is shaped like, or
you you know, I dye myhair. You want to see hair color,
you'll just look at the zoom camera, but no judgment. The weirdness
of it for me is that thathas become part of what you need to
(25:36):
do to get Trump's attention, tobe in Trump's circle, or to have
any sort of influence or connection likethat has become part of it in this
day and age when we're supposed tobe freaking and in you know, becoming
more independent of all of that.That that, you know, women who
want to have power or authority anywherein the world of the GOP now has
(26:00):
got to play this bizarre appearance game. It is creepy and and it's also
for me. It makes me angry, you know, it makes it it's
very uncomfortable to watch. And howdo you confront it without someone saying to
me, Oh, why do youcare what she looks like? It's not
an appearance thing. I think shewas very pretty when she uh became a
house member. And you know,I mean, since they're ladies who care
(26:23):
about their appearance obviously, like theugliness is their personality of politics, right,
but they can't wear the red hat. So do you think they get
matching armbands or is that too soon? Yeah? I don't know. It's
just awful. It's awful no matterwhat. But yeah, everyone's moorkhing towards
(26:47):
trump Ism, right, I meanjd Vance not a surprise, not a
shot, Christina, not a surprise, not a shot. Doug Bergham a
little bit of a surprise and alittle bit of a serious I mean,
at least Stephonic if you went backin the time machine twenty years ago,
she was working for Bill Crystal.You know, she was a Harvard iop
and she won a CD in likewhen Kirsten Gillibrand was an upstate congresswoman.
(27:15):
She had an A rating from theNRA, and then now she's like the
queen of an tight gun stuff becausethe politics of upstate New York and the
city so different. But let mesay something at last. His transformation is
just it's similar, but like itmakes no sense. It's head blowing,
it's mind blowing. My nephew,my beautiful, wonderful, intelligent, highly
(27:37):
educated nephew, was on her campaignin Upstate New York when she was first
elected and so proud of what theyhad accomplished and what she stood for,
what in his mind, what hethought she stood for. And I've heard,
you know, he's as she startedto shift toward this bizarre trumplification,
as you said, like I watchedit with him personally, like it broke
(28:00):
his heart, this young man whowas really thought he was doing something that
was very principled and was going toturn it, you know, to help
change the GOP. And and youknow, so so in that way,
like it's very personal. I thinkwe forget sometimes that when they when these
these people choose decline as a choiceor to choose their own trumplification. They're
(28:22):
leaving behind people who really believed inthem and who really you know, had
a you know, we're all inand believed that they were going to be
someone special, be something different.And so as much as they're gaining,
they're losing something obviously as well.Yeah, I mean, my first Boston
politics sounds like a lot like yournephews. You may know his name,
Josh Mandel. I know who Joshis. I've been I've known Josh since
(28:47):
I was sixteen years old. Youknow, he was in law school.
I thought Josh had a very brightfuture, and he did for a while.
But to like see him now likethis total horn. I covered his
campaign because I knew he would seeit, and he knew it would be
coming for me. And you know, did I get through to him?
Obviously? Not? Like now heand his ex wife are facing jail sentences
(29:07):
for a very messy, weird divorceor to fall from grace. But you
know, when Trump first ran,he was kind of a Rubio guy,
and then he just disappeared and comesback as a Trump guy. He chose
that decline and can't say I feelbad for him, right, And they
don't necessarily see it does decline,and that's the saddest part. Obviously they
(29:29):
don't think they've declined at all orthat the country is in decline under this
Trump influence. So who else shouldwe be looking at on this dope vice
presidential sweepstakes? Now? I mean, what are the names that are realistic?
I know le Stephonic wants desperately tobe the one. Do you really
see Trump choosing a woman? No? No, no, no no.
(29:52):
I was thinking about that before westarted the show. I just don't want
to know why he doesn't. Imean, he doesn't respect me, he
doesn't respect women, and uh,what would picking a woman bring to the
table. He's not bringing a prochoice woman to the table to bring pro
choice voters into the Republican camp orsomething, you know what I mean?
Like, there's there's no female candidateout there that has a constituency that Donald
(30:15):
Trump doesn't have already, right,none of them have. No, there's
no female GOP who has a constituencythat he wants, or or the ones
that he wants he doesn't want inthe office with them. I cannot imagine
that was Mike Pence. That wasMike Pence. Sorry remark yeah, but
(30:41):
no, But but but I justthink I think he's a genuine I don't
chauven. This isn't the right word. What's the misogynist. I think he's
a misogynist in a great way.And no matter how people pushed him or
try to lay this out for him, I don't think he'll be able to
make that step. He's more likelyto choose Tim Scott and Mark or Rubio
(31:03):
than he is, at least tophonic. He has a tendency to really.
I wrote a story the Weekly Standardabout how Donald Trump kind of adheres
to the forty eight Laws of Power, which is a book by Robert Green
Machiavellian philosophy, and Donald Trump fitsit to a t. Go check out
the book from the library or readby piece if you search Donald Trump.
(31:25):
Fort do you call laws of power? Laws? But one of them involves
turning form being former enemies end upbecoming more loyal than the loyalists all along.
So does a least stephon a countas a former enemy? Not really,
she just was a Trumpie. Sheis not a former antagonist who's converted,
(31:45):
right, So I could see Trumppicking someone like that because they will
be more loyal, someone who's likeVivek Ramaswami. Though you can see you
can see the entertaining, you know, like Trump doing impressions of the back
and like Ramaswami, what a name. We like that name, don't we
so fun to say? Like youcan see him, you know, Yeah,
(32:07):
but I absolutely can sure. Buthe's but he's always been Trumpet,
So Trump's not going to trust himto It's the rule. One has never
outshined the master, and Trump doesn'twant someone that could. Uh, you
know, in Virginia we have amurder taking place on our state flag.
He doesn't want that happening there.He doesn't want Ramaswami or someone outshining him
(32:28):
and taking over because I think Trumpis very wary that while he's got such
a stranglehold on the party, uh, there does come a point where the
party could turn on him as quicklyas they turn to him. I don't
see it happening, but it's possible, and I think he's aware of that
possibility. So he doesn't want anyonethere who he could turn his back and
(32:49):
then just get knifed. So hedoesn't want anyone like Ramaswami doing that.
He wants someone who is a sickaphan probably at a convert as someone who
isn't going to be a threat tohim or do better or be more liked
than him. So does that meana Tim Scatter or Mark a Rubyo or
somebody else that's completely off the radar. I think it's a Marco Rubio.
(33:12):
My colleague Mark Capitito is our TrumpWorld consultant, and he's done some good,
long reported work on this. Andthere is not a constitutional problem.
I mean, it's not it's funto talk about in theory, but that
was when the Constitution was written,when we made a different understanding of residency
and people moving. You know,there wasn't JK. Movers right, you
(33:37):
know, selling your estate and movingbetween states was not something that could be
done in a matter of two days. So there's not a constitutional worry about
Rubio. I would not be shockedif it's Rubio. What I would be
shocked if if it was to seeif he could pull it off, because
he hasn't really gone into full Sickafan mode. He's just gone He's gone
(34:00):
from like silent to like I don'twant to talk about it, to like
maybe it's not so bad, tobeing a somewhat active defender of Trump right
insured stuff. So I want tosee if he's got a fifth gear.
That I think is the only question, because Trump doesn't want anyone who I
mean, you remember how vigorously hecampaigned in twenty sixteen, and he do
(34:21):
that for trump Ism. I haven'tseen it yet. I'll be interested to
see if I can see it.I wonder if he really has to do
it for trump Ism. He hasto, I mean, obviously, anybody
like I mean, he has toto keep the boss happy. But once
you're chosen, regardless of what Trumpmight think, you can't go back.
Once you choose a running mate,you can't go back, and you know,
(34:42):
September or October and change your mind. And you know, so does
does somebody like a Rubio have tobecome full throatedly defending Trump or can he
be full throatedly saying I'm here toyou know, to serve I'm here to
serve the people. I'm here toserve the constitution. We need a variety
of voices, you know whatever.I know, I know that would not
(35:04):
be a typical vice presidential message,But you know, can you get away
with not directly saying you know Ithink Trump is king. No, I
mean ask President met Romney and Vicepresident. Yeah, Paul, right,
how well that worked out? Likethey didn't have the synergy. It was
always awkward. I liked both ofthem. I still do Ryan a little
bit less. Paul. Ryan's takingme off. He just talked about writing
(35:29):
someone in. Didn't he was thatyesterday or the day before. He's going
to write in somebody? Come on. Yeah, I'm glad my former recolleague
Charlie was able to really hold hisfeet to the fire in his first public
appearance about all the Fox and Trumpstuff. But like, no, he's
not going to profile and encourage andI get I get it. He is
cashing in at News Corp. Becausehe's not for money. He's not he's
not met Romney. I get it. But yeah, they didn't have synergy.
(35:53):
So I don't think they'll pick Rubioif he can't offer that kind of
vigorous twenty sixteen campaigns like Trump didn't. Trump probably laughed when he was doing
the hand thing, you know,like you know, we don't need to
go into what that means, butlike, well, just style conversation with
Stormy Daniels, that that's what you'relooking for. No, he likes that
(36:15):
style of campaign. Yeah, helikes the circus aspect, you know,
Mike Pence as much as you don'tget it from him. He was a
former talk radio shock jock. Hecould do that and he isn't. Just
well they're you know, always kindof what we're used to seeing him post
January sixth. He could do it. I've seen it. So he he
he wants twenty sixteen Rubio. Ifhe doesn't get twenty sixteen Rubio but converted,
(36:37):
he'll pass on Rubio I think.But outside of that, I mean,
my colleague Will Salaton had a list, I wouldn't have put Bergham on
it. I don't think he's thatserious of a contender. There are a
lot of people who want it,and the people who really want it the
most. I think it's Trump findsthat weird. You know, he sort
of likes this kind of unattainable genisaquaw like Mike Pence. My buddy Tom
(36:59):
lobianco Pence whisper. He and anotherformer colleague, mind Warren Rojas set up
a new publication called twenty four Sight, which I highly recommend you checking out.
Okay, not a lot of Penceworld stuff there, but really good
insight. But Lo Bianco, youknow, really watched Pence in detail and
documented the selection of Pence and howkind of tenuous it was. And so
(37:20):
Trump sort of likes this weird marriage. And Pence had an audience that Trump
couldn't get. But he now ownsit. The evangelicals, right, that's
right. He doesn't need Pence oranybody like him right now. No,
these evangelicals. We were having troublein two thousand and two thousand and four
because George W. Bush had aDUI how how I mean talk about decline
being a choice, embracing another,embracing Trump. Talk to Mike Madrid.
(37:44):
He'll tell you that they need thehe they need the you know, Jesus
Tino, they need the Latino vote. What did you say, Oh,
I wasn't saying Jesus and the Latinoabout. I was saying, y'all need,
y'all need Jesus. Yeah, Itruly truly come on, been swiftly
with the Lord. Yes, butyou know that it's the Latino vote,
and that it's Latino men that aregoing to be you know, going to
(38:07):
be you know, continuing I guessto shift over toward Trump. My my
college thesis was on Ethno religiosity anda vote by church attendants and Latinos are
very interesting because majority of Latino Catholicstended to vote Republican and the Latino Evangelicals
(38:29):
tended to be Democrat. And it'ssort of changed because there have been a
lot of people who came from Catholicbackgrounds as immigrants and then have embraced prosperity
gospel. You see this with likeyeah, Anna, Paulina Luna and then
that woman in Texas who won thatfreaking and everyone's like she's the new face.
I'm like, no, she's goingto get blown out, and she
(38:51):
did. But they they they ina previous world, based on their families,
would have been Roman Catholics, butfor whatever reason, they are not
anymore. And they're part of thisprosperity gospel, which is basically Norman Vincent
Peelee. It's not even really religious. It's all about like God wants us
to be rich. Who doesn't wantto be rich? And you know,
(39:14):
people come to America with as immigrantsbecause not I mean maybe dreams of riches,
but a better life. There isthis susceptibility to the immigrant class for
prosperity gospel, and that's going tobe a huge impact on Latino men and
(39:35):
some women, you know, thewomen Latino women. There is an abortion
factor that you have to factor in, but it's a very prevalent and I
see it and I live in aheavily Latino area, just in bumper stickers
on trucks too. Anecdotally, Idon't I'm not sure Virginia is really in
play like Trump's people think it is, but yeah, it is, it
(39:55):
is, it is something. It'sit's that is like Biden's people think it
might be either or Texas. They'rethey're wasting, they're wasting what willing out
to be billions of dollars eventually.I mean, we're seeing it in Arizona.
Eventually the demographics change and California andother state leftist states kind of lose
(40:15):
population to those kind of sunbell areas, but not this time. It's not
to say don't have a presence,but they're they're pouring good money after bad
for states. Well, and it'stoo it's just too precarious a time,
it's too precarious an election to towaste, you know, millions or billions
of dollars where you know ahead oftime, and to your point, you
(40:37):
have to have a presence, otherwisethat gradual shift doesn't happen. But it's
this is the wrong time to doit. Jim, you have been fantastic
as always. This is I don'twant to say this is the most important
election of our lifetimes because you andI it is. We've both been there
so many times. But this iscritical. We are we've got to cheap
(41:00):
critical mass on this and your yourinsights have been fascinating and we're gonna have
to have you back again. Folks, we've been talking to Jim Swift.
He is the editor of The Bulwark. You can senior senior editor, senior
editor. He's not the editor.That's that's right. You're right, you're
right. No offense intended to Iknow who. But if you if you
(41:22):
want to re record that, youcan. Okay. He is the senior
editor at The Bulwark and you canfind him on Twitter at Jim Swift d
C. I think he's one ofthe smart guys and I follow him so
that I can keep up with what'shappening in the world as well. Jim,
thank you. So much. It'sgreat to have you here. You
(41:43):
all have been listening to Is itjust me? Or have we all lost
our minds? Yes, yes,we am
Is it just me? Or havewe all lost our minds? It's a
question I've been asking myself on repeatfor the last eight years, and I
know I'm not alone in that.Is it the politics, is it the
culture? Or am I just gettingold? Hi? I'm Jennifer Horn and
I'm a former Republican strategist and partyleader turned independent sanity activist. I decided
(00:24):
to do this podcast so we couldexplore these questions. I'll bring experts to
the table from politics and media andculture. We'll have raw, insightful conversations
with the clear goal of getting tothe bottom of it all. One way
or another. We've all lost ourminds, and I hope you'll join us
on the journey to find them again. Hi, this is Jennifer Horn and
(00:47):
you're listening to Is it just me? Or have we all lost our minds?
And it's another one of those weekswhere I think maybe we have all
lost our minds. The primary focusthis week seems to be a former porn
actress and her former president. Idon't know what to call him. I
don't think he was her boyfriend exactly, but that's what we're all listening to
(01:10):
and learning more and more about andyet there's a lot of other things going
out in the world. I wantto make sure that we don't lose focus
on the bigger picture, on what'shappening in our democracy today. So I'm
really very happy to have our nextguest with us. I know you're all
familiar with him. He's a senioreditor at The Bulwark, formerly of The
Weekly Standard, and many times ifyou listen to any of our faces on
(01:36):
Twitter, then you've heard his voicebefore, mister Jim Swift. Jim,
thank you so much for being withus today. Thanks Jennifer. And I
think the term you were looking forwas accidental paramour. Yes, a former
porn actress and her accidental paramore andformer president of the United States. Who
ever thought, Jim, that wewould see ourselves in this situation? And
(02:00):
I remember the deep emotion I feltback during the Clinton years, you know,
when everything was coming out on himone at a time at a time,
and then his that he lied underoath. You know, I did
not have sexual relations with that woman, and still they did not think that
he should be he should be,you know, impeached for that. And
(02:23):
never did I think then that wewould experience what we are now. It's
crazy. Yeah, I mean Iwas younger, not that I'm saying you're
older, but oh no, Iacknowledge how much older I am. I
was younger when all that went down, but I was, you know,
and I had to write a paperon who I supported in the nineteen ninety
(02:46):
six election and why I was gettingpolitical at that time. And I later
worked for a member of the SenateJudiciary Committee, and we had ten Stars.
We called it the Book of Starand it was the original Star Report
to be written binder and we wouldgo and we would read through it on
Fridays, and you know, weall thought that was an anomaly, and
(03:07):
you know, that was just kindof like a low point in American history.
Now we kind of look back sortof fondly on nineties era scandals.
And then ken Starr, I thinkthis is a good lead into what you
wanted to talk about. My repeatingof Charles Krawdhemmer's decline is a choice,
yes, And you know, KenStarr fallen from grace. Bill Clinton kind
(03:30):
of in the background, and almostremember fondly by Democrats, even though he
did lie under oath and commit impeachableoffenses, but by comparison to the current
reality. Well, it's hard toeven make a comparison. It's so bad,
(03:50):
it's so different. And boy,do I miss Charles Kronthomer. You
know, we could use his voice, but you do you know, decline
is a choice. And I've seenyou you know, you've said it before,
and I just saw it the otherday, yesterday or the day before
on one of your Twitter posts aboutformer Senator Kelly AA. I'd kind of
like to get into that a littlebit more because one of the things I'm
(04:13):
really worried about, and I triedto express this before on some of these
podcasts, is that the American peoplehave become lazy defenders of democracy to the
point where I'm not sure if everybody, if most people even have a sense
of what the personal connection to themis between themselves as a citizen and democracy
(04:39):
as a principal. And then whenI see your decline as a choice,
I think that really kind of speaksto the same thing. Yeah. I
mean, I will admit upfront,having served in the US government in the
Senate alongside as a staffer around KellyAI, I was never impressed by her.
She was a a joiner, afollower. You know, Lindsey kind
(05:02):
of in the same mold as LindsayGraham, but not nearly as sycophantic.
So but he used declined as achoice, which comes from Charles Crowdhammer.
May he rest in peace. Igot the book that his son edited,
which is so old at this pointyou can get it at as steel if
you don't own it and you're listeningto Jennifer Horne's show. Not owning it
(05:25):
is criminal. In my mind,you should just go by it and reread
these essays. It will make youmiss Charles Crowdhammer. But you know,
I kind of want to keep thisphrase that he's associated with coining as it
relates to Republican politics alive, becauseKelly Ayott knows better. She may not
have been a swashbuckling John McCain orMitt Romney kind of original willing to really
(05:51):
risk their career to speak truth.You know, she goes along, she's
a party woman, but she knowsbetter. And I've used I've used this
phrase a lot. It's kind ofbecome one of my Twitter memes. And
I'm glad that you kind of catchthe shorthand those who know know it's always
(06:12):
fun to look at the comments andand see like decline, like you know,
they don't get it's it's it's shorthandfor they know better, and they're
choosing this action, and they're choosingthis path willingly. Kelly A lost to
Maggie Son, and she could havejust gone on and done something, but
on some boards, never been taintedreally by being known as super Trumpist,
(06:35):
right like Jeff Flake, Like JeffFlake. She could have just ridden off
into the sunset and done something.But now she wants to come back.
She wants to be governor governor,which might which might have been an aim
all along. I don't know whyUS senators want to become governors, but
you know, my native home stateof Ohio has Mike Dwine who was a
(06:56):
US Senator at one point, andimpressive one at that. I have to
say, and I mean to bitemy tongue for New Hampshire till we see
what happens up there. Yeah,and you know, I mean it's it's
now is a time for truth tellingand honesty. And another race I'm looking
(07:17):
at is Larry Hogan. Oh yeah, yeah, you know, Larry Hogan
kind of was a fence sitting antianti Trumper writing in dead people ghosts to
be president. I mean, veryunserious stuff. But he did a lot
of good things for Maryland and he'srunning again and it's going to be very
hard. We'll find out whose primaryopponent or his opponent is after the Maryland
(07:41):
primary ends next week. But ifI lived in Maryland, I'm not sure
I could vote for Larry Hogan.To be honest with you, I don't
because of the I don't know ifhe's got mentality. Well, if it
comes down in the Senate, dependingon the makeup of the Senate, and
(08:01):
I'm getting way into the weeds here, just like as a former Senate staffer.
So I'm just thinking, if thechips are down and it all comes
down to Larry Hogan's vote, wouldLarry hookund do the right thing? And
I haven't necessarily seen even in hiskind of I wouldn't even say acts of
defiance against Trump. I mean,it's more like he was a pest to
(08:22):
Trump. But like nowhere did heever really go to pokem in the eye?
Right? I mean, he's hadhad some flashy videos. He might
run for president, he might not, you know, kind of hearken Reaganism,
but could Larry Hogan be trusted todo the right thing? I'm not
sure, you know, when itcomes to democracy specifically, because you had
said were lazy defenders of democracy.I think that might even be too charitable
(08:43):
for a lot of people. Thereare a lot of people who, well,
they won't admit it. They're fascistcurious, they're fascist friendly. They
like the strong man. You know, they all think curious. That's a
fascinating turn. Yeah, you know, they love really speaks to the moment
in which we live. Yeah,I mean they love Victor or Bond.
(09:05):
You know, they are interested inthe idea of a theocracy. They believe
fundamentally in their heart of hearts thatAmerica is a Christian country, which no
it's not. It may be thefriendliest come for Christians and the ability to
practice Christianity as you see fit.I'm Catholics, so you get what I'm
get what I'm getting at there ofour lost brothers and sisters. But yeah,
(09:31):
we're not being I think that,not that I'm thinking you're being too
too charitable in a way that iswrong. There are some people who just
don't really see how scary after thetwenty twenty election is and how close we
came to a literal coup, andthey're trying it again now. The advantage
(09:52):
is Trump world is filled with unseeriousclowns in the legal world. I mean,
name a Trump lawyer that a haslasted or b is a really good
lawyer, right, right, wherehave they actually accomplished their goal? They
usually being a Trump lawyer isn't reallyabout being a good lawyer, right,
(10:13):
It's about being a Trump loyalist ora Trump you know speakerphone as Trump.
Yes, you know, we're beinga pr face on television, like Olena
Haba who comes from the parking lotindustry. You know, what's your name,
Jenna Ellis? You know Jenna Ellis? Right, went to like a
like law school that's like a stepabove a diploma mill. And these lawyers
(10:39):
don't last. You know. GeorgeConway, my now colleague, was kind
of like a Trump lawyer in thevery very early days and quickly got off.
He's got a great show at theBulwerk where he explains all of this
courtroom drama which I don't watch orpay granular attention to, because I know
George Conway will tell me. AndSarah doesn't score us I think George is
tri treaking all of this. It'sa great public great great public service,
(11:05):
but we are at this reckoning point, and I think you really got something
that people don't realize the seriousness ofthis. They think that twenty twenty was
kind of like a farcical joke.And that's because they're not they're not paying
attention. You know, you andme, who worked at high levels of
politics, I think of the Capitolas a second home. I was not
(11:26):
there on January sixth, but Ipaid very close attention to it because I'm
a member of the Congressional Press Corps, and so it's really I've paid very
close attention to this, as hasWashington. But outside of Washington, people
just kind of shrug at it,and they're trying to do it again,
(11:46):
and they don't have the good lawyers. I mean, there was an aren't
now that Lara Trump is the cochair of the r n C. So
when I worked at the r nC, Ann Wagner, a former ambassador
and future congress and current congresswoman,was the co chair of the r n
C. Now it's Trump's butter andlaw. So what do they do?
They fire there? They're actually seriouslegal counsel. Now, the price of
(12:09):
admission in Trump world is you haveto either accept or not speak out against
the big Lie. If you ifyou are just saying it's not true,
it's all a lie. There's nothingto prove any anything Trump's gone over the
century in court. It's not aconspiracy, it's just the facts. And
uh, you don't have a place. So he had one good lawyer at
(12:33):
the r n Z and he waselated that that guy got pushed out.
So Charlie, Yeah, Charlie's gone. Yeah, Charlie sp Yeah. And
you know, I'm not saying he'sa saint, but like if you if
if you were, if you wereto ask me to like rank the pro
Trump legal minds that exist out there, he'd be near the top, right,
(12:54):
no question about it. So,uh, you know they're they're they're
shooing this. The problem Charlie Spied'sfor the rn C, and his cycle
is that he might have been proTrump, but he was anti big lie.
He was anti Steel, you know, and he refused to you know,
like we say, refuse to bea speakerphone, you know, a
megaphone for that particular conspiracy theory.Yeah, and so that's why he's gone.
(13:20):
So now it's just a clown show. They're attempting it again with the
Jeffrey Clark types of the world.You know, the people who know where,
know where the guardrails are, knowwhere the bright red lines are,
and just have just decided that they'rethey're color blind and you know, not
listening, and they will jump overwhatever line. Trump says, that's the
(13:41):
real scary part about this next election. And you know, we have sort
of not we Democrats, unfortunately,I think have over relied on this is
the most important election of your lifetime, dating back to like two thousand and
four. But this really is.And some people think that because it's been
(14:03):
said every election at a prey midterm, you know, every special election,
that it's crying wolf. But it'strue. This presidential election is going
to be the most important one.So let me let me jump in here.
As before we get off of thern C, it wasn't on our
list of things to chat about,but this is something I've really tried to
(14:24):
kind of get out there, andthere's very little interest in hearing about it.
The R and C has been restructuredunder Trump and Lard Trump in these
past couple of months to be anelection disruption operation. Anytime that the rn
C says election integrity, they're talkingabout election disruption. And I don't think
(14:45):
that people understand what they are actuallyplanning for when they talk that way.
The attorneys that they have brought in, the staff that they've brought in,
the field people that they are bringingin are all people who they talk about
election integrity, you know, andhaving their hands on the ballots. They're
(15:07):
talking about, you know, havingan invasive presence like we have not seen
before from a party in the actualprecinct to precinct to precinct voting you know
operation. And if nothing else,from twenty twenty, they have learned an
awful lot about what they can getaway with and what they can't get away
(15:28):
with. And you know, Iam convinced that the whole purpose of the
RNC right now is to be preparedto challenge ballots to get legitimate votes overturned
to you know, accidentally lose ordestroy or misdirect or whatever. They are
(15:50):
not trying to make sure there isa legal, honest election operation. That
is the opposite of what they're actuallyplanning for. And they're doing it right
under our noises. Well, Ithink they're being pretty transparent about it too.
I think there the RNC now servestwo purposes, right, one which
I'll get to in a second.But the first one is funneling money to
(16:11):
pay for Trump's legal defenses. Right. It is basically now kind of Trumpet
run Ponzi schemes over the years,you know, like Trump Network consultants,
you know, rich get rich quickschemes. This is now a money grabbing
Ponzi scheme to get money to payfor these bad lawyers that keep quitting,
you know, in the suits.The other one is you accurately described,
(16:34):
is the RNC. I mean whenI worked there in two thousand and four,
were four years out from the twothousand election, and we had lawyers
in Missouri where I was working theretoo, we had one at the courthouse
for people filing lawsuits to be awareof all this kind of stuff. It
was not really like meant to seekcontroversy, but to like it was,
(16:56):
you know, like a demilitarized zone. The lawyers right there in the christ
Yeah, you know, filed filedsomething to get in the junction to keep
polls open later or something. Now, Yeah, at the heart of that
that is kind of disrupting and whatnot. But now they're much more active.
The other point of the RNC asyou think back to all of this stuff,
like with Ruby Freeman and Ruby Giulianiand all the tapes and all the
(17:21):
like people trying to like and theyactually did access to about her records in
Georgia, the RNC is like aB fifty two filled with cluster bombs that
are like legal cluster bombs, andthey're just dry. They're flying over and
dropping them on every state in theselaw in these lawyers are going to be
lunatic lawyers. And there was aguy down in Texas who ran for office
(17:45):
who had a handlebar mustache. Hewas like thirty four and he's like a
true believer, had a ridiculous name. We're going to be seeing hundreds of
these guys out there, and they'reall going to be Laura Lumer types with
video cameras and we're going to haveI think, unfortunly, do you remember
the Detroit Convention Center controversy and they'relike these are secret ballots and everything else.
(18:07):
We're going to see that everywhere becausenow Trump's team is kind of like
a raptor trying to escape from anelectrified cage. They've tested the week spots
and they know where the weak spotsare. If they gang up and they
get critical force on those week spots. But that's the legal strategy. The
pr strategy will be to flood thezone with more controversy than a normal person
(18:32):
can keep up with. And thatis the goal. That is why we
started the show with people are reluctantdefenders of democracy because they can't be bothered.
If you were to grab a morethan average and interested voter, someone
who actually listens to cable news orradio news or something just at random,
and ask them to explain the Detroitvoter controversy and why it was bunk,
(18:56):
they couldn't do it. And that'sjust I agree with. Of like twenty
controversies, at least in the twentytwenty election, we're going to have two
hundred plus of those. They're goingto be in Ohio, they're going to
be in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, Florida. They're gonna even
be in red states. They're goingto do because the controversies in red states
(19:17):
will be easy to go along withbecause they'll have local leocal officials who will
go along with this conspiracy even ifit's complainly false. Right, So I
think about the fake elector scheme,think about the fake elector scheme from last
time, that people should not assumethat that's gone away. You know,
I don't know what what, Idon't know how it manifests in twenty twenty
four yet, but they're you know, the idea of being able to choose
(19:41):
your own electors regardless of who wonthe state. Trump is. Trump is
just I think that sometimes we havebecome desensitized to just how bad he is,
to just how ill and unbalanced heis, and to how willing he
is to be openly evil in hisintent and his actions. Oh, you
(20:03):
want to get even darker than that. So the facial electors, some of
them are facing jail time right becausebecause they committed crimes. Donald Trump in
the r n C is probably goingto come up with a scheme where people
can donate money to become fake electors. Jesus, because you know these people
would not only love to get partyto the opportunity to become instant celebrity martyrs.
(20:26):
Buy your buy your way in We'regoing to see way more fake electors.
I wouldn't even even be surprised ifwe saw fake electors in states where
Trump wins handily, like Montana,you know, because then they're gonna be
like, see, it's so,it's it's it's true. Even Montana is
alternative electors. It's gonna I don'tI don't think we are prepared. And
I know this isn't on the topicof AI. AI is going to really
(20:49):
mess with this election too, ButI don't think we're prepared for the amount
of circus we're gonna get. We'regonna get way more than we wanted this
hotel. This is the year.I keep saying, this is the year
when democracy is going to truly betested in a way that it wasn't in
twenty twenty. Regardless of January sixth, it just and as long as Trump
(21:11):
is on the playing field and gettingthe kind of now they're saying, supposedly
some of his numbers are shifting withall everything that's been happening in Manhattan,
and that you know that some ofthe you know, he's going to start
losing support. I don't see ityet. I don't. I don't see
it on the ground. I don'tsee it in the polls. I don't
see anything dramatic happening yet. Andwe know that the document case is going
(21:34):
to be pushed off, and Ijust think, I think that we are
going to be tested this fall ina way that we have not been before.
And I don't know where we land. No, I don't either.
And it said it's going to beIt's going to be a lot and it
could go a lot of ways too. I will say I offer this prediction
(21:56):
everyone. I think at the endof the day, Joe Biden wins by
even bigger margins than he did intwenty twenty. You know, the makeup
of who gets him there will bea little bit different. He's gonna lose
some Dems, He's going to losesome one time Biden voters, but I
think he's going to gain some others. I think it's gonna be a pretty
(22:17):
clear win. Doesn't mean it's notgoing to be messy. I think it's
gonna be very messy, and Idon't think we're prepared for how messy it
is. Agreed, and I thinkthe big key for Joe Biden is he's
got to win by enough that judgesand courts that are going to ultimately,
you know, inevitably be involved inall of this, you know, will
be forced to confront and confirm youknow, the truth and the actual outcome,
(22:41):
and not to get into the weedsand you know, demographics and all
for twenty twenty four right now.But I think for in spite of all
the insanity of Trump and the trialsand everything that's happening there, I think
in the end that women who hasstrong feelings about bodily autonomy are going to
(23:03):
end up being and it won't bejust soccer moms or just you know,
college educated white women or I thinkwhere I think that I really believe that
that is going to be a greaterinfluence than people think it is right now.
Again, because we're all so caughtup with the drama in a Manhattan
courtroom right now, and it's hard, you know, is it a drama
(23:26):
or is it a drama tee?I'm not sure sometimes, but yes it's
a tragedy. So as long aswe're going down this path, and we
do have a few minutes left still, let's talk about the GOP vice presidential
sweep sweep steaks and the craziness inthere in that. You know, I
(23:47):
can't even think who else is onthe list. I'm so the only thing
we've heard about for the past weekis Christinoam's shooting her dog, killing her
dog, her puppy, And Imean her interviews this week promoting her book
are just bizarre. It's like she'sin a different headspace from like she's in
(24:07):
a different on a different planet.Her tone, her way, her face
looks, and then the crazy thingsthat are coming out of her mouth.
Well, you know, I mean, Christineam has gotten all of the attention
because she's really seeking it, right, Yes, but I remember when Christinome
in the early two thousands was thisfresh face, pretty young congress were in
(24:29):
and go back and look, andI've tweet it was going to be the
new voice, the new face ofthe GOP. I don't need I don't
mean to make this about appearance,but she is unrecognizable from the woman who
lived across the hall from some ofmy colleagues and they had, you know,
they're like, oh, she's sopretty, like she lives across the
all unrecognizable and like the trumplification.If you if you look at Kimberly Gilfoyle,
(24:52):
Laura Trump, Yes, Ronna McDaniel, Romney yes, and her the
out of the hair color, thehair style, the face, the lips,
all this kind of stuff. It'slike they're all becoming It's like we're
approaching this singularity. It's not justthe mindset. It literally is a look
too well, and that's coming.Let me comment on that quickly before you
(25:15):
move on from there too, becauselike you, it's I don't want to
make it about yeah, I don'twant to make it about appearances. I
don't care how much you weigh orwhat your nose is shaped like, or
you you know, I dye myhair. You want to see hair color,
you'll just look at the zoom camera, but no judgment. The weirdness
of it for me is that thathas become part of what you need to
(25:36):
do to get Trump's attention, tobe in Trump's circle, or to have
any sort of influence or connection likethat has become part of it in this
day and age when we're supposed tobe freaking and in you know, becoming
more independent of all of that.That that, you know, women who
want to have power or authority anywherein the world of the GOP now has
(26:00):
got to play this bizarre appearance game. It is creepy and and it's also
for me. It makes me angry, you know, it makes it it's
very uncomfortable to watch. And howdo you confront it without someone saying to
me, Oh, why do youcare what she looks like? It's not
an appearance thing. I think shewas very pretty when she uh became a
house member. And you know,I mean, since they're ladies who care
(26:23):
about their appearance obviously, like theugliness is their personality of politics, right,
but they can't wear the red hat. So do you think they get
matching armbands or is that too soon? Yeah? I don't know. It's
just awful. It's awful no matterwhat. But yeah, everyone's moorkhing towards
(26:47):
trump Ism, right, I meanjd Vance not a surprise, not a
shot, Christina, not a surprise, not a shot. Doug Bergham a
little bit of a surprise and alittle bit of a serious I mean,
at least Stephonic if you went backin the time machine twenty years ago,
she was working for Bill Crystal.You know, she was a Harvard iop
and she won a CD in likewhen Kirsten Gillibrand was an upstate congresswoman.
(27:15):
She had an A rating from theNRA, and then now she's like the
queen of an tight gun stuff becausethe politics of upstate New York and the
city so different. But let mesay something at last. His transformation is
just it's similar, but like itmakes no sense. It's head blowing,
it's mind blowing. My nephew,my beautiful, wonderful, intelligent, highly
(27:37):
educated nephew, was on her campaignin Upstate New York when she was first
elected and so proud of what theyhad accomplished and what she stood for,
what in his mind, what hethought she stood for. And I've heard,
you know, he's as she startedto shift toward this bizarre trumplification,
as you said, like I watchedit with him personally, like it broke
(28:00):
his heart, this young man whowas really thought he was doing something that
was very principled and was going toturn it, you know, to help
change the GOP. And and youknow, so so in that way,
like it's very personal. I thinkwe forget sometimes that when they when these
these people choose decline as a choiceor to choose their own trumplification. They're
(28:22):
leaving behind people who really believed inthem and who really you know, had
a you know, we're all inand believed that they were going to be
someone special, be something different.And so as much as they're gaining,
they're losing something obviously as well.Yeah, I mean, my first Boston
politics sounds like a lot like yournephews. You may know his name,
Josh Mandel. I know who Joshis. I've been I've known Josh since
(28:47):
I was sixteen years old. Youknow, he was in law school.
I thought Josh had a very brightfuture, and he did for a while.
But to like see him now likethis total horn. I covered his
campaign because I knew he would seeit, and he knew it would be
coming for me. And you know, did I get through to him?
Obviously? Not? Like now heand his ex wife are facing jail sentences
(29:07):
for a very messy, weird divorceor to fall from grace. But you
know, when Trump first ran,he was kind of a Rubio guy,
and then he just disappeared and comesback as a Trump guy. He chose
that decline and can't say I feelbad for him, right, And they
don't necessarily see it does decline,and that's the saddest part. Obviously they
(29:29):
don't think they've declined at all orthat the country is in decline under this
Trump influence. So who else shouldwe be looking at on this dope vice
presidential sweepstakes? Now? I mean, what are the names that are realistic?
I know le Stephonic wants desperately tobe the one. Do you really
see Trump choosing a woman? No? No, no, no no.
(29:52):
I was thinking about that before westarted the show. I just don't want
to know why he doesn't. Imean, he doesn't respect me, he
doesn't respect women, and uh,what would picking a woman bring to the
table. He's not bringing a prochoice woman to the table to bring pro
choice voters into the Republican camp orsomething, you know what I mean?
Like, there's there's no female candidateout there that has a constituency that Donald
(30:15):
Trump doesn't have already, right,none of them have. No, there's
no female GOP who has a constituencythat he wants, or or the ones
that he wants he doesn't want inthe office with them. I cannot imagine
that was Mike Pence. That wasMike Pence. Sorry remark yeah, but
(30:41):
no, But but but I justthink I think he's a genuine I don't
chauven. This isn't the right word. What's the misogynist. I think he's
a misogynist in a great way.And no matter how people pushed him or
try to lay this out for him, I don't think he'll be able to
make that step. He's more likelyto choose Tim Scott and Mark or Rubio
(31:03):
than he is, at least tophonic. He has a tendency to really.
I wrote a story the Weekly Standardabout how Donald Trump kind of adheres
to the forty eight Laws of Power, which is a book by Robert Green
Machiavellian philosophy, and Donald Trump fitsit to a t. Go check out
the book from the library or readby piece if you search Donald Trump.
(31:25):
Fort do you call laws of power? Laws? But one of them involves
turning form being former enemies end upbecoming more loyal than the loyalists all along.
So does a least stephon a countas a former enemy? Not really,
she just was a Trumpie. Sheis not a former antagonist who's converted,
(31:45):
right, So I could see Trumppicking someone like that because they will
be more loyal, someone who's likeVivek Ramaswami. Though you can see you
can see the entertaining, you know, like Trump doing impressions of the back
and like Ramaswami, what a name. We like that name, don't we
so fun to say? Like youcan see him, you know, Yeah,
(32:07):
but I absolutely can sure. Buthe's but he's always been Trumpet,
So Trump's not going to trust himto It's the rule. One has never
outshined the master, and Trump doesn'twant someone that could. Uh, you
know, in Virginia we have amurder taking place on our state flag.
He doesn't want that happening there.He doesn't want Ramaswami or someone outshining him
(32:28):
and taking over because I think Trumpis very wary that while he's got such
a stranglehold on the party, uh, there does come a point where the
party could turn on him as quicklyas they turn to him. I don't
see it happening, but it's possible, and I think he's aware of that
possibility. So he doesn't want anyonethere who he could turn his back and
(32:49):
then just get knifed. So hedoesn't want anyone like Ramaswami doing that.
He wants someone who is a sickaphan probably at a convert as someone who
isn't going to be a threat tohim or do better or be more liked
than him. So does that meana Tim Scatter or Mark a Rubyo or
somebody else that's completely off the radar. I think it's a Marco Rubio.
(33:12):
My colleague Mark Capitito is our TrumpWorld consultant, and he's done some good,
long reported work on this. Andthere is not a constitutional problem.
I mean, it's not it's funto talk about in theory, but that
was when the Constitution was written,when we made a different understanding of residency
and people moving. You know,there wasn't JK. Movers right, you
(33:37):
know, selling your estate and movingbetween states was not something that could be
done in a matter of two days. So there's not a constitutional worry about
Rubio. I would not be shockedif it's Rubio. What I would be
shocked if if it was to seeif he could pull it off, because
he hasn't really gone into full Sickafan mode. He's just gone He's gone
(34:00):
from like silent to like I don'twant to talk about it, to like
maybe it's not so bad, tobeing a somewhat active defender of Trump right
insured stuff. So I want tosee if he's got a fifth gear.
That I think is the only question, because Trump doesn't want anyone who I
mean, you remember how vigorously hecampaigned in twenty sixteen, and he do
(34:21):
that for trump Ism. I haven'tseen it yet. I'll be interested to
see if I can see it.I wonder if he really has to do
it for trump Ism. He hasto, I mean, obviously, anybody
like I mean, he has toto keep the boss happy. But once
you're chosen, regardless of what Trumpmight think, you can't go back.
Once you choose a running mate,you can't go back, and you know,
(34:42):
September or October and change your mind. And you know, so does
does somebody like a Rubio have tobecome full throatedly defending Trump or can he
be full throatedly saying I'm here toyou know, to serve I'm here to
serve the people. I'm here toserve the constitution. We need a variety
of voices, you know whatever.I know, I know that would not
(35:04):
be a typical vice presidential message,But you know, can you get away
with not directly saying you know Ithink Trump is king. No, I
mean ask President met Romney and Vicepresident. Yeah, Paul, right,
how well that worked out? Likethey didn't have the synergy. It was
always awkward. I liked both ofthem. I still do Ryan a little
bit less. Paul. Ryan's takingme off. He just talked about writing
(35:29):
someone in. Didn't he was thatyesterday or the day before. He's going
to write in somebody? Come on. Yeah, I'm glad my former recolleague
Charlie was able to really hold hisfeet to the fire in his first public
appearance about all the Fox and Trumpstuff. But like, no, he's
not going to profile and encourage andI get I get it. He is
cashing in at News Corp. Becausehe's not for money. He's not he's
not met Romney. I get it. But yeah, they didn't have synergy.
(35:53):
So I don't think they'll pick Rubioif he can't offer that kind of
vigorous twenty sixteen campaigns like Trump didn't. Trump probably laughed when he was doing
the hand thing, you know,like you know, we don't need to
go into what that means, butlike, well, just style conversation with
Stormy Daniels, that that's what you'relooking for. No, he likes that
(36:15):
style of campaign. Yeah, helikes the circus aspect, you know,
Mike Pence as much as you don'tget it from him. He was a
former talk radio shock jock. Hecould do that and he isn't. Just
well they're you know, always kindof what we're used to seeing him post
January sixth. He could do it. I've seen it. So he he
he wants twenty sixteen Rubio. Ifhe doesn't get twenty sixteen Rubio but converted,
(36:37):
he'll pass on Rubio I think.But outside of that, I mean,
my colleague Will Salaton had a list, I wouldn't have put Bergham on
it. I don't think he's thatserious of a contender. There are a
lot of people who want it,and the people who really want it the
most. I think it's Trump findsthat weird. You know, he sort
of likes this kind of unattainable genisaquaw like Mike Pence. My buddy Tom
(36:59):
lobianco Pence whisper. He and anotherformer colleague, mind Warren Rojas set up
a new publication called twenty four Sight, which I highly recommend you checking out.
Okay, not a lot of Penceworld stuff there, but really good
insight. But Lo Bianco, youknow, really watched Pence in detail and
documented the selection of Pence and howkind of tenuous it was. And so
(37:20):
Trump sort of likes this weird marriage. And Pence had an audience that Trump
couldn't get. But he now ownsit. The evangelicals, right, that's
right. He doesn't need Pence oranybody like him right now. No,
these evangelicals. We were having troublein two thousand and two thousand and four
because George W. Bush had aDUI how how I mean talk about decline
being a choice, embracing another,embracing Trump. Talk to Mike Madrid.
(37:44):
He'll tell you that they need thehe they need the you know, Jesus
Tino, they need the Latino vote. What did you say, Oh,
I wasn't saying Jesus and the Latinoabout. I was saying, y'all need,
y'all need Jesus. Yeah, Itruly truly come on, been swiftly
with the Lord. Yes, butyou know that it's the Latino vote,
and that it's Latino men that aregoing to be you know, going to
(38:07):
be you know, continuing I guessto shift over toward Trump. My my
college thesis was on Ethno religiosity anda vote by church attendants and Latinos are
very interesting because majority of Latino Catholicstended to vote Republican and the Latino Evangelicals
(38:29):
tended to be Democrat. And it'ssort of changed because there have been a
lot of people who came from Catholicbackgrounds as immigrants and then have embraced prosperity
gospel. You see this with likeyeah, Anna, Paulina Luna and then
that woman in Texas who won thatfreaking and everyone's like she's the new face.
I'm like, no, she's goingto get blown out, and she
(38:51):
did. But they they they ina previous world, based on their families,
would have been Roman Catholics, butfor whatever reason, they are not
anymore. And they're part of thisprosperity gospel, which is basically Norman Vincent
Peelee. It's not even really religious. It's all about like God wants us
to be rich. Who doesn't wantto be rich? And you know,
(39:14):
people come to America with as immigrantsbecause not I mean maybe dreams of riches,
but a better life. There isthis susceptibility to the immigrant class for
prosperity gospel, and that's going tobe a huge impact on Latino men and
(39:35):
some women, you know, thewomen Latino women. There is an abortion
factor that you have to factor in, but it's a very prevalent and I
see it and I live in aheavily Latino area, just in bumper stickers
on trucks too. Anecdotally, Idon't I'm not sure Virginia is really in
play like Trump's people think it is, but yeah, it is, it
(39:55):
is, it is something. It'sit's that is like Biden's people think it
might be either or Texas. They'rethey're wasting, they're wasting what willing out
to be billions of dollars eventually.I mean, we're seeing it in Arizona.
Eventually the demographics change and California andother state leftist states kind of lose
(40:15):
population to those kind of sunbell areas, but not this time. It's not
to say don't have a presence,but they're they're pouring good money after bad
for states. Well, and it'stoo it's just too precarious a time,
it's too precarious an election to towaste, you know, millions or billions
of dollars where you know ahead oftime, and to your point, you
(40:37):
have to have a presence, otherwisethat gradual shift doesn't happen. But it's
this is the wrong time to doit. Jim, you have been fantastic
as always. This is I don'twant to say this is the most important
election of our lifetimes because you andI it is. We've both been there
so many times. But this iscritical. We are we've got to cheap
(41:00):
critical mass on this and your yourinsights have been fascinating and we're gonna have
to have you back again. Folks, we've been talking to Jim Swift.
He is the editor of The Bulwark. You can senior senior editor, senior
editor. He's not the editor.That's that's right. You're right, you're
right. No offense intended to Iknow who. But if you if you
(41:22):
want to re record that, youcan. Okay. He is the senior
editor at The Bulwark and you canfind him on Twitter at Jim Swift d
C. I think he's one ofthe smart guys and I follow him so
that I can keep up with what'shappening in the world as well. Jim,
thank you. So much. It'sgreat to have you here. You
(41:43):
all have been listening to Is itjust me? Or have we all lost
our minds? Yes, yes,we am
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