May 16, 2024 • 33 mins
Is Trump really an autocrat-wannabe? Or is that just overreacting by anti-Trumpers? Jill Lawerence is a longtime writer and editor whose insightful political pieces you've read in USA Today, the AP, National Journal and she's the author of "The Art Of The Political Deal." Today, she joins us to take a closer look at Trump's leadership style and argues that a second Trump term would meet the definition of autocracy.
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(00:03):
Is it just me? Or havewe all lost our minds? It's a
question I've been asking myself on repeatfor the last eight years, and I
know I'm not alone in that.Is it the politics, is it the
culture? Or am I just gettingold? Hi? I'm Jennifer Horn and
I'm a former Republican strategist and partyleader turned independent sanity activist. I decided
(00:25):
to do this podcast so we couldexplore these questions. I'll bring experts to
the table from politics and media andculture. We'll have raw, insightful conversations
with the clear goal of getting tothe bottom of it all. One way
or another. We've all lost ourminds, and I hope you'll join us
on the journey to find them again. Hi, this is Jennifer Horn and
(00:48):
you're listening to Is it just me? Or have we all lost our minds?
Again? I have to say,I don't know how many weeks in
a row. I'll be starting bysaying, if you're following the Trump trial,
the hush money trial, the StormyDaniels trial, whatever you want to
call it, then you probably feellike you've lost your mind. It is
insane. Today. We are recordingthis on Tuesday, and it's the end
(01:12):
of the Michael Cohen testimony. We'llcome back to that later this week and
share some insights on that with you. But today we have returning actually for
the podcast, a good friend ofmine, somebody who's writing and character and
integrity I had admired for many years. She is an opinion writer and editor.
(01:34):
She did some politics at USA Today, the National Journal, AOL,
the Daily Beast, the Associated Press. She's the author of Art of the
Political Deal. You can see thatshe is an experienced and talented writer.
It's very much my pleasure to welcomeback Jill Lawrence. Jill, how are
you? Thank you so much forjoining us. I'm good, Jennifer,
(01:57):
and thank you for asking me atthis front moms, aren't they all?
Though it feels fraught sometimes, doesn'tit. I'm trying to be really good
about staying positive and focusing on thestrengths and the you know, the the
uplifting moments and things like that.But there are definitely days where we sort
of just sit around and feel like, oh my god, is this just
(02:20):
is this like democracy's armor get in? Is this the end of it?
I don't know, I don't know. I do know I'm going to take
that back. I do know it'snot I believe in the people. I
believe in our country. I believein our principles. But this, you
know, the revelations that are comingout in this trial of just how dark
and dirty and heavy and awful,not just Donald Trump but everyone around him,
(02:46):
you know, how bad they reallyare. Just I hope that enough
people are watching it and paying attentionor at least catching up on it at
the end of the day to knowwhat's coming out of it. It's not
just a salacious story about an affairwith a you know, with a porn
actress. There's there's a lot moreto it. I hope people are getting
it. And you can definitely tellme I'm right at any time. You
(03:09):
always I'm right. You know,people I see people saying, oh,
well, we knew all this,Well, we didn't really. I mean
we knew of it, we didn'thave the details, and it's you know,
we didn't have the window on it, and we didn't see how much
it was all about the money andall about the power, and all about
the secrecy, and you know,it's just been very eye opening. I
(03:35):
think for a lot of people.You see a lot of this. Well.
George Conway and was one who said, you know, I didn't think
much of this, but now,and you know, I'm waiting for my
husband to get on that train.He hasn't yet. We'll see maybe.
Yeah, well, you know whatI found. I have something else I
really want to talk to you abouttoday, But I just you know,
I found Stormy Daniel's testimony very insightful. And everyone figured it was just going
(04:00):
to be salacious, it was justgoing to be you know, ucky and
dirty, and even Judge Marshaun saidsomething about we don't need to hear the
details of intercourse and none of us, frankly, have any interest in that,
but just her. You know what, by the time she was done,
I felt like we had a muchbetter understanding of just how abusive it
(04:20):
is for anyone to be in arelationship with Donald Trump. You know,
I several of the commentators and maybeeven on Cross Examine the attorney you're angry
at Donald Trump, aren't you.You'd like to see him in jail,
And she's like, yeah, I'mangry. I do want to see him
accountable, And I thought, yeah, she has a right to be angry.
(04:43):
He's dragged her through the mud.He's you know, done all sorts
of things to attack and try todestroy her. And why shouldn't she be
angry? You know, she's she'sengaged in a profession that I certainly have
no interest in participating in. Noneof that takes away her rights to dignity,
or her rights to be treated respectfullyas a human or a woman,
(05:05):
or right to be hurt in courtor anything else. Like, She's got
every right to be angry. AndI thought that her testimony was very was
even more revealing of who Donald Trumpis than it was who she is.
I think that's true, and Ithink Michael Cohen is continuing in that tradition.
(05:26):
It's you know, you just reallyget the sense that there are no
clean hands in idy is this,but only some people are willing to own
up to it. And so manyof you people have been punished. Yes,
I mean it's halling has time injail, yes, right, right,
(05:46):
And so you know he has thesame kind of you know, would
you like to you know, doyou hate him? Yes, I hate
him, you know, I mean, would you like to see him punished?
Of course? You know, Imean for this and he did it
for this guy. I mean,obviously he did it for his own money
too, but it looked kind ofiffy there for a while if he was
going to even be reimbursed. Andthen there was the whole, the whole
(06:08):
angle of you know, Trump actuallydidn't care in the least whether it came
out, whether whether Stormy came outand told everything after the election, right
because it wouldn't matter whether he gotin, It wouldn't matter whether he lost.
It wouldn't matter, you know.So it was about the election.
(06:28):
Yeah, And the other I thinkis coming out here is something I wrote
about a couple of months ago,maybe three months ago. This could have
turned the election. This was theelection expence. He was absolutely flattened.
In fact, he apologized for TheApprentice, the the you know that,
(06:48):
the Hollywood Yeah, I mean,and when has he apologized since then?
Right? Never? Never? Ido think he was, I mean,
how much of an apology. Hewas sorry that he was about to lose
the election over it. I don'tthink he was sorry for the way that
he spoke about or treated women.He said this is not me, and
(07:08):
we're all like, yeah, right, but he said that, right right,
Well, and it's something Michael Cohensaid, that was really interesting to
your point. Is part of histestimony. I think it was yesterday me.
I'm having trouble keeping track of allthe days in the courtroom when he
said that. One of the thingsthat Trump said was this will ruin me,
(07:30):
This will lose the election for me. He said, Uh, women
will hate it. Men might,men might get a kick out of it,
or men might, you know,think it's cool or something like that,
but women will hate it. Andit's just like he is, so
he is, so he knows whohe is. Like to me, that
was a moment, like he knowswhat. I want to call him a
(07:51):
dirtbag, but I don't think that'san appropriate phrase to use. I don't
want to be but he's a terribleperson and he knows it, and he
knows it. And yeah, andwhat I love about everything that we knew
about I would say that you andI knew about him in twenty sixteen,
(08:13):
but everything we've known about him,everything we've learned about him, everything we've
learned about him just in the lastthree weeks. Women are his He is
the He's not just narcissistic, heis so misogynistic. People have asked me,
do you think he'll choose Nicky Haleyor Christine Ohman or something like.
I can't imagine a world where DonaldTrump choose as a woman to be his
(08:33):
VP. I don't think he could. He could stand it. I don't
think he could see it. Well, yeah, I'm agree because I think
he needs, he wants the armcandy. And that's another side of the
misogyny. You know, there's alot of women like Christina who've got who've
had major makeovers to try to looklike the kind of woman he wants,
(08:54):
he usually has by his side,and she's actually, you know, she's
the season. Yeah, she doesn'tseem to be that smart politically or generally,
so I don't think she I thinkyou're right, that's a good point.
And when you say that, Ialso think I think he would probably
(09:16):
can very much embrace the idea ofthe woman being second in command, taking
his taking his orders. But Istill don't see it. I don't know.
I think that there's going to bethere's too much ego there for him
to allow it. But you seeingDoug Bergham there, I mean, what
the hell is he doing? Whowas it? This Marrine Bergham and Johnson
(09:39):
and god I saw like four orfive of them across who yes, Ram
Swanny was there and another one inthe back. I just, oh,
my gosh, it's such a beggar'sposition. It said that they put themselves
in. It's so bizarre to me. It's so bizarre to me. And
by the way, I'm going topost something on Seneca for folks who forget.
(10:01):
You can also catch my audio upat a few times a week at
senaclup dot com. I'm going tobe talking about Mike Johnson and why he
was in New York City today insteadof in DC, addressing being multiple domestic
and foreign issues at our country iscaught up in right now. What purpose
(10:22):
did he serve for the American peoplethat he's supposed to be serving by being
in New York City with Donald Trump, none somewhere that you know, they
consider their work done. They've doneThey've funded the government, they've funded Ukraine
and Israel and other foreign aids.They've apparently they already did the FAA you
(10:43):
know, reauthorizations. So whatever hashappened that needs to happen absolutely essentially happen.
All the rest is messaging. Thenmaybe he should go home and start
meeting with some of his constituents.Should be he should go. I think
you should visit America and get outsidehis strict Actually that might not be a
(11:05):
bad idea, saying there other thanDonald Trump's court room, I guess,
is my point? Well, youknow there was Okay, I'll stop,
but there was a guy who wentin there and who there was this great
I can't remember what his name was, somebody from a conservative outfit who was
covering the trial in New York andsaid, New York is not at all
what I expected. There aren't youknow, homeless people lying on the street
(11:28):
all over, and you know,everybody's not poor, and it's you know,
just kind of normal here. Whowould have known? Yeah, yeah,
maybe if you go somewhere that you'venever been before, you might learn
something not just about New York City, but about people, about humanity.
What an idea. I think it'shysterical that he said it and published it
(11:48):
or wherever he was. I lovethat. Actually, say, yeah,
okay, Jill, here's what theI don't want to miss time to chat
with you about. For folks whodon't realize it, you also do quite
a bit of writing lately for TheBulwark the Bulwark dot com. We had
Jim Swift here from The Bulwark lastweek and he said it made a very
similar comment to you that all thesewomen in politics who either want to get
(12:11):
close to Trump or have been broughtclose to Trump, these very it's like
the trumplification of the women in hiscircle, these makeovers that they all go
through. And I'm hesitant to evencomment on it because I don't want people
talking about what I look like.I don't need to talk about what they
look like. But there is somethingI think a little thick about it,
(12:31):
a little twisted about it. Andit's not just the women you name.
There are many others you can andit's obvious, and it's you know,
it's out there. It's such astrange thing. But Jim made Jim made
the same comment last week. Butthis week you wrote a great piece that
just I think. It just cameout today for The Bulwark, and the
title of it is we can't letTrump run America. He like his business.
(12:56):
It would be an autocracy like we'venever seen. And I want to
start this by just sharing the thirdparagraph with everybody with just a little bit
of it. But things have changed. It's now clear we have gone way
beyond the creepily disturbing dictator worship that'smarked Trump's political career. Way beyond installing
daughter Avanka and son in law JaredKushner in the West Wing as presidential advisors,
(13:20):
were even way beyond Trump's successful coupto make his daughter in law Lara
co chair of the Republican National Committeeand her vow that the RNC would spend
every single penny to get her fatherin law elected. I love this as
a place to start because those peoplethat I know, whether it's personal or
(13:43):
political or whatever, who are whoare? I know a lot of people
still who say they're going to votefor Trump because he's better than Biden for
this reason or that reason. Iknow he's not a good person. I
know he had an affair blah blahblah, and they don't see it.
They don't get the argument from mewhen I try to convince them that there
is an actual threat to democracy ifTrump go is in the Oval office again,
(14:09):
and they all say, what youjust said, Oh he so what
PO and so what it's good forto have a good relationship with pot And
you know, it's his his daughterand son in law. They're smart there.
He's been in business with them fortwenty years. It's good for them
to be surrounded. But you justput like that this is it, This
is the core of the concern.We have gone way beyond that creepy admiration
(14:33):
of dictators. But talk to meabout what, like what got you here?
Because you didn't always look at himand say, oh, this is
autocracy any minute now I didn't,And I you know, I've come off
through journalism with the Associated Press inthe US STAY today it's two of the
most mainstream and stayed outlets there are, so I you know, I try
to like sow instead of use usetitles like that, you know, just
(14:58):
with details. And so this timewhat set me off was at the top
of the homepage of the Washington Postwhere there were three pieces that just you
know, it was all all ina little clump and you could see that.
We have a screenshot of it,but it was, uh, you
know, in the story. Butthe headlines were top Republicans led by Trump
(15:18):
refused to commit to accept twenty twentyfour election results and what Trump promised oil
CEOs as he asked them to steerone billion dollars to his campaign, and
Baron Trump makes political debut as Floridadelegate for GOP convention, and you know,
(15:39):
Baron, it turns out, atage eighteen, his mom stepped in
two days later and said, noffingaway, right, I think we've shod
previous statements. Bodness, Thank goodnessfor that. But you know, to
me, it's like the lineup ofTrump's and Trump adjacent people on that delegate
list, it went way beyond Jaredand Ivanka. I mean we're talking,
(16:03):
you know, way beyond Lara,who of course will be in a big
role at the convention. You know, there were so many people and this
oil thing, this oil CEOs thing, was just, i mean especially blatant,
to the point where people were sostunned they were talking about it,
right, And you know, I'myou know, if you look at the
(16:26):
and then the election, I thoughtthe election acceptance was the biggest one.
To me, that that's the biggestone, all right. And then apparently
in Congress the Republicans are being primedfor the same thing, even the ones
who have no chance of being vicepresident. So it's you know, so
if you look at what An autocracyis government by a single person or small
(16:48):
group that has unlimited power or authority. I mean, I just you know,
combined with all the you know,having all and Tiffany is now a
lawyer, you know, and KimberlyGuilford, the long running fiance for Don
Junior. She's on the platform committeefor the convention. She'll be, you
know, writing the platform. Youknow, everybody is in these positions where
(17:11):
they can just and the way thething that was so striking, you know,
I immediately thought of how Hope Hicks, the Trump aid at the White
House, described how it all workedand how you know, he and Jared
and Ivanka everyone reported to them.I'm sorry she she was talking about the
business, the Trump organization, andso the three of them there were Trump
(17:34):
and his two sons, and everyonereported to the family, right and at
the White House, I assume everyonereported to Trump and his daughter and son
in law. And now you know, he's going to have people inside and
outside. And when you're writing aboutTrump, there's always the question of where
do you stop, where do youlimit what you're saying, Because if you
(17:57):
could really do a lot about youknow, what about the prelude, like
so the the prelude to what's coming, the Chinese trademarks that Ivaca Goblis he
was in the White House. Yeah, the body windfall that Jared got,
the you know, that's the thirtyfour hundred I think ethics smilations conflicts of
(18:19):
interest, thirty four hundred conflicts ofinterests that Trump had, according to the
one of the watchdog groups in Washington. You know, the the money that
all of them made from the Trumphotel in Washington, where I mean,
you know, you could you couldexplain this and how it's going to get
exponentially worse when there were no safeguards, when he's eliminated the civil service,
(18:40):
you know, or you know,and installed partisan loyalists where he doesn't have
anybody with any independence in any ofthe cabinet positions or particular expertise. You
know, when he's stocking his judiciarywith more of the people who brought us,
you know, the repeal of theoverturning of Roe v. Wade and
all the other things, the stoppingthe reduction of authority for states to regulate
(19:04):
guns. I mean, just allkinds of things. So you know,
this is I don't see any impedentsto this including our court system, which
is you know this, we're talkingabout this trial which everyone thought was the
least of it because nothing else isdone. And that's well to the Supreme
Court. And it's the fault ofa Trump judge in Florida, Judge Hannon.
(19:27):
Yeah, yeah, the Trump SupremeCourt. I mean, you know,
it's I hate hear anybody say theTrump's Supreme Court. But that's there's
no question that that's what that that'sthe suffering under which you know, the
American people are living right now.So I want to talk about the part
(19:47):
about the number of high level electedRepublican to refuse to commit to accept the
outcome of the election in twenty fourin November. You know everything anybody who
follow has continued to follow the theconsequences of January sixth, twenty twenty understands
(20:07):
what that means when they say that, you know, we don't know,
we'll we'll see. Well, youknow, is I've seen so many of
them just give kind of this willsee answer. And I do wonder how
many of them are saying we'll see, it'll depend on like if Trump loses,
you know, who are they lookingat it? Like if Trump loses,
then I don't have to fight aboutthis anymore. He'll be gone.
(20:30):
Or if Trump loses, I'll bein there denying the you know, the
legitimacy of the election and leading theway to the next you know, January
sixth, the next march on theCapitol. You know what happened, you
know, remember what they were allin the process of doing. They were,
you know, confirming the election onJanuary sixth, and the outcome in
(20:52):
each state. And that's the onein and of itself that scares me the
most because it's the one that Ithink can lead to not just an I'm
saying justice the wrong word. Itcould potentially lead to an illegitimate president.
But it could very well, evenif it doesn't lead to that, lead
(21:15):
to violence literally across the country.Another second January sixth, in my opinion,
won't just take place in DC.I think that his people will be
riled up and organizing, and you'llsee it at state capitals across the country.
I think the violence could become muchmore destructive than what we saw in
(21:36):
twenty twenty. I share your fears, but I also think the Justice Department
shares your fears because I think itwas just today that they had a big
announcement about the you know, howthe attention they're going to be paying,
and how there will be you know, harsh penalties for anyone who tries to
(21:59):
to to do anything to disrupt elections, accounting and you know, people trying
to vote. You know, there'sjust a lot, a lot of preparation
now. I mean, I youknow, this is another thing that a
Trump administration would just be completely derelicton. I mean, when his own
cybersecurity guy, Chris Kreb said thatit was the most secure election that America
(22:23):
has ever had or something like that, you know, very reassuring about the
election. I guess he forced outabout a minute later. You know.
It's just it's nobody who is nowsaying the kind of people who are now
saying that this was a nightmare.And I was only there to try to
restrain his worst impulses. They're notgoing back there, and he doesn't want
(22:45):
anyone like that. He doesn't wantany I mean, it was already sort
of a central casting type thing orhow much do you hate the mission of
your agency? Great, you're hired, you know, I don't think he's
gonna even look at anyone with qualificationsor not. He's just going to put
his own people in and there willbe I think, as I said in
my piece, if he wants to, you know, destroy every single Biden
(23:08):
climate initiative, reverse it, nomatter you know, what the impact will
be and whether it means China willget the jump on us or whether it
means, you know, pollution willrise to the point of, you know,
hastening global warming. He'll be ableto do it. He will be
(23:29):
able to do it without anyone tellinghim not to. Except one of the
things whenever someone says to me,like, well, what can I do,
Like I'm not part of a biggroup, I'm not this, Like
what do I do here at home? The less Republican support he has in
Congress, the weaker he is,the less able he will be to get
(23:51):
away with what he is planning andwhat he wants to get away with.
And there's another great article I thinkit was in Time magazine just a couple
of weeks ago that people should readabout Trump. He's very you know talk
about saying, you know, sayingthe quiet things out loud, very open,
very open about his planned and forthe United States and for the world,
if he becomes president again. Butthe most important thing that folks at
(24:15):
home can do, folks who arejust working in their community, is make
sure that Republicans lose the Congressional andSenate seats in your state, like,
get involved there. The less Ifeel like, the less protection he has
in Congress, the harder it's goingto be for him to get away with
a lot of these things that we'retalking about. Yeah, I mean,
that was one of the things Iwas going to say. I'm not sure
(24:37):
that everyone understands the risks of electingRepublicans, particularly to the Senate, you
know, and the workings of Congress. I created quite a stir a few
years ago when I said, don'tvote for any Republican for Congress, anyone,
even if they're fabulous. It seemslike you should reward people who voted,
(24:57):
for example, in favor of oryou know, conviction. Don't because
it doesn't matter whether these people areprinciples that stick to their principles. They're
part of a Republican majority, andthey're not going to be in control of
that Republican majority. And what thatmeans is that Republicans will control committees,
they will control what gets to thefloor. You know, people don't see
(25:19):
the cascade effect of this that willthen have many, many more justices,
you know, like Alito and youknow Gorsuch and Clarence Thomas Law and yes,
yeah, yeah, I mean we'llhave. You just can't give an
inch at this point, even ifit penalizes really good people. I have
(25:42):
nothing against Hogan. I think he'sgreat. You know, he was a
good governor, and he seems toyou know, I'm much more liberal than
he is, but he seems likea good person. And you know,
he seems more he's always stuck.He's being more moderate though, right,
he's more of a more of amodic. He's still yes, but you
(26:03):
know, to hear people that Irespect, to hear, you know,
Republicans I respect saying they're going tovote for him because they have he's going
to hold the line and you willadd to the Collins Murkowski caucus and blah
blah blah. That to me justshows no sense of how Congress works.
It will be game over. Well. I got a lot of talk about
(26:25):
getting a lot of you know,pushback back during my Lincoln Project days.
I supported When the Lincoln Project,I had a big problems with the commercial
that they've produced. However, Isupported the idea of trying to undermine Susan
Collins. I think the Collins MurkowskiCaucus has become very damaging because they're unwilling.
It only goes so far. They'renever willing to take that final giant
(26:49):
step where they're withholding their vote andsomething, you know, and actually constructing
a fence to something, actually preventingsomething from happening. It's all talk,
it's all finger wagging and and andI'd rather have and I'm I'm right of
center, and people don't believe meanymore. But I am genuinely principally right
(27:11):
of center. And I'd rather seethe Collins of the world leave the leave
the Senate. And I'd rather seea moderate Democrat at this point. And
in Maine, you have to bemoderate to get elected, no matter what
letter you put by your name.Right, Well, it's it's enabling,
That's what it is, you knowvery much. You go there as a
Republican, even if you disagree,and you are beside yourself about Trump,
(27:37):
if you I mean and and butbut you're voting to convict in a and
overthrow the government trial and nobody's joiningyou. I mean, not enough you.
Not even McConnell is joining you.And now, you know, I
always think about this, how he'sbeing done in by the court he created
with Trump. You know, hesaid, well, I'm not going to
convict him, but we have acriminal justice system and a civil system and
(28:00):
he will get his yeah, rightright when it is right. Yeah.
I mean the can In case isvery instructive because here's the judge. He
well, court, the High Courttoo, but her in particular. He
named a judge who was very inexperienced, but incredibly conservative and loyal to him.
And now we're paying the price.We have a president to We had
(28:22):
a form president who was a nationalsecurity risk who might get elected again.
And not only was he a nationalsecurity risk over the documents, he was
committing national security crimes from months,you know, within months of being inaccurate
becoming president, yes, right,with Russians in the Oval Office and disclosing
to them. You know, Ithink it was Israeli intelligence methods and posting
(28:45):
pictures of things on on social mediathat were classified. I mean, he's
a menace in the Oval Office.I'm sorry, really, it seems like
too soft a word. He reallygets to me too, And not just
because of how damaging and dangerous hewas and continues to be, but because
(29:06):
I think national security and foreign relationsget that's an area where the average voter
isn't really keyed in. Not becausethey're not intelligent or they can't understand it
or I think, but because they'rejust maxed out, you know, and
when they're looking at issues, youknow, national political issues, they that
they have time for, that theythat they want to focus on, they
(29:27):
don't get that far. I thinkthey're just not keyed in. And I
think that they underestimate how really damagingit is to get it wrong with national
security and foreign relations, and apresident who calls the president of another country
and tries to get him, youknow, the conversation with Zelensky on phone,
(29:47):
you know, tries to bribe himinto helping him with his own election
year at home. I just Imean, people die, people can die
because of disclosures like what he made, and people have been polled from their
posts. I mean, he doesn'twell, look, he's he is who
he is. We know he iswho he is. Maybe that's maybe that's
(30:10):
a good place to end it onI you know, I don't want to,
although let's I'm gonna, I'm gonna, let's try to find what is
the uplifting moment in anything that we'rethinking about or talking about today. I'm
I'm hoping, my I'm hoping thatthe more could because as I listen to
this what's coming out in the trialin New York, the more I hear,
the more, you know, I'mlearning more and more things I never
(30:33):
heard before that I find so shockingand dangerous and undermining of you know,
leadership and democracy. So I'm hopingthat there are more and more Americans who
are just catch up with the newsat six or seven o'clock at night,
and that they're hearing it too,and that they're hearing it the same way
that I hear it. That's mypositive thought for the day I need from
(30:55):
you. Yes, No, Iagree with your thought. And my own
thought is that there's so much dataand ammunition for Democrats to use on immigration
and border security, and now anew study on crime that shows Democrats have
just been presiding over falling crime,rising public safety funding. There's a lot
(31:18):
that can happen, and I don'tthink that those of us who focus on
the national situation are going to seeit necessarily, but the candidates who need
these talking points and advertising points,hopefully we'll see them, from you know,
senating candidates to House candidates, governors, state legislatures. The talking points
are there, the data is there, the record is there, and so
(31:42):
I have faith in democratic strategists andcandidates at this point that by the time
we are, you know, atLabor Day, by the time we're past
the conventions, this stuff is goingto be blanketing, blanketing America. Maybe
you know in increments that we're notpaying attention to a state legislative rates or
something. But I think right yougiving out the crime is the best one
(32:07):
for state candidates, you know,for people who are you people out there
who are looking at it or thinkingabout running or anything else, that they
should go and find those then informationon falling crime rates in America, because
it is it's kind of surprising.I saw some of that as well.
The numbers are quite surprising. Sothat's the goodness theirs Way Research Report there
you go, third that is thatis what it was. Third Way Research
(32:30):
Report. God you remember everything,Jill, Your brain is like everything,
Yeah, and we're liking Encyclopedia.Thank you so much Jill for joining us
and being here with us today.It's Jill Lawrence. Make sure you catch
her most recent article. It's inthe Bulwark Today, the Bulwark dot com.
(32:50):
You can also find her on Twitterat Jill D. Lawrence and that's
l A W R E n CE. I got it wrong the first
time I went looking for you.A lifetime of experience and knowledge and insights,
Jill. Thank you so much forsharing it with us. I appreciate
you being here. Thank you,Jennifer. It was fun conversation. Always,
(33:14):
it's always an interesting conversation when it'syou, This is Jennifer Whore and
you're listening to Is it just me? Have we all lost our minds?
I appreciate you tuning in, Iappreciate you caring, and we will,
as always be back again next week. Thank you for tuning in, Jill,
Thanks for being here.
Is it just me? Or havewe all lost our minds? It's a
question I've been asking myself on repeatfor the last eight years, and I
know I'm not alone in that.Is it the politics, is it the
culture? Or am I just gettingold? Hi? I'm Jennifer Horn and
I'm a former Republican strategist and partyleader turned independent sanity activist. I decided
(00:25):
to do this podcast so we couldexplore these questions. I'll bring experts to
the table from politics and media andculture. We'll have raw, insightful conversations
with the clear goal of getting tothe bottom of it all. One way
or another. We've all lost ourminds, and I hope you'll join us
on the journey to find them again. Hi, this is Jennifer Horn and
(00:48):
you're listening to Is it just me? Or have we all lost our minds?
Again? I have to say,I don't know how many weeks in
a row. I'll be starting bysaying, if you're following the Trump trial,
the hush money trial, the StormyDaniels trial, whatever you want to
call it, then you probably feellike you've lost your mind. It is
insane. Today. We are recordingthis on Tuesday, and it's the end
(01:12):
of the Michael Cohen testimony. We'llcome back to that later this week and
share some insights on that with you. But today we have returning actually for
the podcast, a good friend ofmine, somebody who's writing and character and
integrity I had admired for many years. She is an opinion writer and editor.
(01:34):
She did some politics at USA Today, the National Journal, AOL,
the Daily Beast, the Associated Press. She's the author of Art of the
Political Deal. You can see thatshe is an experienced and talented writer.
It's very much my pleasure to welcomeback Jill Lawrence. Jill, how are
you? Thank you so much forjoining us. I'm good, Jennifer,
(01:57):
and thank you for asking me atthis front moms, aren't they all?
Though it feels fraught sometimes, doesn'tit. I'm trying to be really good
about staying positive and focusing on thestrengths and the you know, the the
uplifting moments and things like that.But there are definitely days where we sort
of just sit around and feel like, oh my god, is this just
(02:20):
is this like democracy's armor get in? Is this the end of it?
I don't know, I don't know. I do know I'm going to take
that back. I do know it'snot I believe in the people. I
believe in our country. I believein our principles. But this, you
know, the revelations that are comingout in this trial of just how dark
and dirty and heavy and awful,not just Donald Trump but everyone around him,
(02:46):
you know, how bad they reallyare. Just I hope that enough
people are watching it and paying attentionor at least catching up on it at
the end of the day to knowwhat's coming out of it. It's not
just a salacious story about an affairwith a you know, with a porn
actress. There's there's a lot moreto it. I hope people are getting
it. And you can definitely tellme I'm right at any time. You
(03:09):
always I'm right. You know,people I see people saying, oh,
well, we knew all this,Well, we didn't really. I mean
we knew of it, we didn'thave the details, and it's you know,
we didn't have the window on it, and we didn't see how much
it was all about the money andall about the power, and all about
the secrecy, and you know,it's just been very eye opening. I
(03:35):
think for a lot of people.You see a lot of this. Well.
George Conway and was one who said, you know, I didn't think
much of this, but now,and you know, I'm waiting for my
husband to get on that train.He hasn't yet. We'll see maybe.
Yeah, well, you know whatI found. I have something else I
really want to talk to you abouttoday, But I just you know,
I found Stormy Daniel's testimony very insightful. And everyone figured it was just going
(04:00):
to be salacious, it was justgoing to be you know, ucky and
dirty, and even Judge Marshaun saidsomething about we don't need to hear the
details of intercourse and none of us, frankly, have any interest in that,
but just her. You know what, by the time she was done,
I felt like we had a muchbetter understanding of just how abusive it
(04:20):
is for anyone to be in arelationship with Donald Trump. You know,
I several of the commentators and maybeeven on Cross Examine the attorney you're angry
at Donald Trump, aren't you.You'd like to see him in jail,
And she's like, yeah, I'mangry. I do want to see him
accountable, And I thought, yeah, she has a right to be angry.
(04:43):
He's dragged her through the mud.He's you know, done all sorts
of things to attack and try todestroy her. And why shouldn't she be
angry? You know, she's she'sengaged in a profession that I certainly have
no interest in participating in. Noneof that takes away her rights to dignity,
or her rights to be treated respectfullyas a human or a woman,
(05:05):
or right to be hurt in courtor anything else. Like, She's got
every right to be angry. AndI thought that her testimony was very was
even more revealing of who Donald Trumpis than it was who she is.
I think that's true, and Ithink Michael Cohen is continuing in that tradition.
(05:26):
It's you know, you just reallyget the sense that there are no
clean hands in idy is this,but only some people are willing to own
up to it. And so manyof you people have been punished. Yes,
I mean it's halling has time injail, yes, right, right,
(05:46):
And so you know he has thesame kind of you know, would
you like to you know, doyou hate him? Yes, I hate
him, you know, I mean, would you like to see him punished?
Of course? You know, Imean for this and he did it
for this guy. I mean,obviously he did it for his own money
too, but it looked kind ofiffy there for a while if he was
going to even be reimbursed. Andthen there was the whole, the whole
(06:08):
angle of you know, Trump actuallydidn't care in the least whether it came
out, whether whether Stormy came outand told everything after the election, right
because it wouldn't matter whether he gotin, It wouldn't matter whether he lost.
It wouldn't matter, you know.So it was about the election.
(06:28):
Yeah, And the other I thinkis coming out here is something I wrote
about a couple of months ago,maybe three months ago. This could have
turned the election. This was theelection expence. He was absolutely flattened.
In fact, he apologized for TheApprentice, the the you know that,
(06:48):
the Hollywood Yeah, I mean,and when has he apologized since then?
Right? Never? Never? Ido think he was, I mean,
how much of an apology. Hewas sorry that he was about to lose
the election over it. I don'tthink he was sorry for the way that
he spoke about or treated women.He said this is not me, and
(07:08):
we're all like, yeah, right, but he said that, right right,
Well, and it's something Michael Cohensaid, that was really interesting to
your point. Is part of histestimony. I think it was yesterday me.
I'm having trouble keeping track of allthe days in the courtroom when he
said that. One of the thingsthat Trump said was this will ruin me,
(07:30):
This will lose the election for me. He said, Uh, women
will hate it. Men might,men might get a kick out of it,
or men might, you know,think it's cool or something like that,
but women will hate it. Andit's just like he is, so
he is, so he knows whohe is. Like to me, that
was a moment, like he knowswhat. I want to call him a
(07:51):
dirtbag, but I don't think that'san appropriate phrase to use. I don't
want to be but he's a terribleperson and he knows it, and he
knows it. And yeah, andwhat I love about everything that we knew
about I would say that you andI knew about him in twenty sixteen,
(08:13):
but everything we've known about him,everything we've learned about him, everything we've
learned about him just in the lastthree weeks. Women are his He is
the He's not just narcissistic, heis so misogynistic. People have asked me,
do you think he'll choose Nicky Haleyor Christine Ohman or something like.
I can't imagine a world where DonaldTrump choose as a woman to be his
(08:33):
VP. I don't think he could. He could stand it. I don't
think he could see it. Well, yeah, I'm agree because I think
he needs, he wants the armcandy. And that's another side of the
misogyny. You know, there's alot of women like Christina who've got who've
had major makeovers to try to looklike the kind of woman he wants,
(08:54):
he usually has by his side,and she's actually, you know, she's
the season. Yeah, she doesn'tseem to be that smart politically or generally,
so I don't think she I thinkyou're right, that's a good point.
And when you say that, Ialso think I think he would probably
(09:16):
can very much embrace the idea ofthe woman being second in command, taking
his taking his orders. But Istill don't see it. I don't know.
I think that there's going to bethere's too much ego there for him
to allow it. But you seeingDoug Bergham there, I mean, what
the hell is he doing? Whowas it? This Marrine Bergham and Johnson
(09:39):
and god I saw like four orfive of them across who yes, Ram
Swanny was there and another one inthe back. I just, oh,
my gosh, it's such a beggar'sposition. It said that they put themselves
in. It's so bizarre to me. It's so bizarre to me. And
by the way, I'm going topost something on Seneca for folks who forget.
(10:01):
You can also catch my audio upat a few times a week at
senaclup dot com. I'm going tobe talking about Mike Johnson and why he
was in New York City today insteadof in DC, addressing being multiple domestic
and foreign issues at our country iscaught up in right now. What purpose
(10:22):
did he serve for the American peoplethat he's supposed to be serving by being
in New York City with Donald Trump, none somewhere that you know, they
consider their work done. They've doneThey've funded the government, they've funded Ukraine
and Israel and other foreign aids.They've apparently they already did the FAA you
(10:43):
know, reauthorizations. So whatever hashappened that needs to happen absolutely essentially happen.
All the rest is messaging. Thenmaybe he should go home and start
meeting with some of his constituents.Should be he should go. I think
you should visit America and get outsidehis strict Actually that might not be a
(11:05):
bad idea, saying there other thanDonald Trump's court room, I guess,
is my point? Well, youknow there was Okay, I'll stop,
but there was a guy who wentin there and who there was this great
I can't remember what his name was, somebody from a conservative outfit who was
covering the trial in New York andsaid, New York is not at all
what I expected. There aren't youknow, homeless people lying on the street
(11:28):
all over, and you know,everybody's not poor, and it's you know,
just kind of normal here. Whowould have known? Yeah, yeah,
maybe if you go somewhere that you'venever been before, you might learn
something not just about New York City, but about people, about humanity.
What an idea. I think it'shysterical that he said it and published it
(11:48):
or wherever he was. I lovethat. Actually, say, yeah,
okay, Jill, here's what theI don't want to miss time to chat
with you about. For folks whodon't realize it, you also do quite
a bit of writing lately for TheBulwark the Bulwark dot com. We had
Jim Swift here from The Bulwark lastweek and he said it made a very
similar comment to you that all thesewomen in politics who either want to get
(12:11):
close to Trump or have been broughtclose to Trump, these very it's like
the trumplification of the women in hiscircle, these makeovers that they all go
through. And I'm hesitant to evencomment on it because I don't want people
talking about what I look like.I don't need to talk about what they
look like. But there is somethingI think a little thick about it,
(12:31):
a little twisted about it. Andit's not just the women you name.
There are many others you can andit's obvious, and it's you know,
it's out there. It's such astrange thing. But Jim made Jim made
the same comment last week. Butthis week you wrote a great piece that
just I think. It just cameout today for The Bulwark, and the
title of it is we can't letTrump run America. He like his business.
(12:56):
It would be an autocracy like we'venever seen. And I want to
start this by just sharing the thirdparagraph with everybody with just a little bit
of it. But things have changed. It's now clear we have gone way
beyond the creepily disturbing dictator worship that'smarked Trump's political career. Way beyond installing
daughter Avanka and son in law JaredKushner in the West Wing as presidential advisors,
(13:20):
were even way beyond Trump's successful coupto make his daughter in law Lara
co chair of the Republican National Committeeand her vow that the RNC would spend
every single penny to get her fatherin law elected. I love this as
a place to start because those peoplethat I know, whether it's personal or
(13:43):
political or whatever, who are whoare? I know a lot of people
still who say they're going to votefor Trump because he's better than Biden for
this reason or that reason. Iknow he's not a good person. I
know he had an affair blah blahblah, and they don't see it.
They don't get the argument from mewhen I try to convince them that there
is an actual threat to democracy ifTrump go is in the Oval office again,
(14:09):
and they all say, what youjust said, Oh he so what
PO and so what it's good forto have a good relationship with pot And
you know, it's his his daughterand son in law. They're smart there.
He's been in business with them fortwenty years. It's good for them
to be surrounded. But you justput like that this is it, This
is the core of the concern.We have gone way beyond that creepy admiration
(14:33):
of dictators. But talk to meabout what, like what got you here?
Because you didn't always look at himand say, oh, this is
autocracy any minute now I didn't,And I you know, I've come off
through journalism with the Associated Press inthe US STAY today it's two of the
most mainstream and stayed outlets there are, so I you know, I try
to like sow instead of use usetitles like that, you know, just
(14:58):
with details. And so this timewhat set me off was at the top
of the homepage of the Washington Postwhere there were three pieces that just you
know, it was all all ina little clump and you could see that.
We have a screenshot of it,but it was, uh, you
know, in the story. Butthe headlines were top Republicans led by Trump
(15:18):
refused to commit to accept twenty twentyfour election results and what Trump promised oil
CEOs as he asked them to steerone billion dollars to his campaign, and
Baron Trump makes political debut as Floridadelegate for GOP convention, and you know,
(15:39):
Baron, it turns out, atage eighteen, his mom stepped in
two days later and said, noffingaway, right, I think we've shod
previous statements. Bodness, Thank goodnessfor that. But you know, to
me, it's like the lineup ofTrump's and Trump adjacent people on that delegate
list, it went way beyond Jaredand Ivanka. I mean we're talking,
(16:03):
you know, way beyond Lara,who of course will be in a big
role at the convention. You know, there were so many people and this
oil thing, this oil CEOs thing, was just, i mean especially blatant,
to the point where people were sostunned they were talking about it,
right, And you know, I'myou know, if you look at the
(16:26):
and then the election, I thoughtthe election acceptance was the biggest one.
To me, that that's the biggestone, all right. And then apparently
in Congress the Republicans are being primedfor the same thing, even the ones
who have no chance of being vicepresident. So it's you know, so
if you look at what An autocracyis government by a single person or small
(16:48):
group that has unlimited power or authority. I mean, I just you know,
combined with all the you know,having all and Tiffany is now a
lawyer, you know, and KimberlyGuilford, the long running fiance for Don
Junior. She's on the platform committeefor the convention. She'll be, you
know, writing the platform. Youknow, everybody is in these positions where
(17:11):
they can just and the way thething that was so striking, you know,
I immediately thought of how Hope Hicks, the Trump aid at the White
House, described how it all workedand how you know, he and Jared
and Ivanka everyone reported to them.I'm sorry she she was talking about the
business, the Trump organization, andso the three of them there were Trump
(17:34):
and his two sons, and everyonereported to the family, right and at
the White House, I assume everyonereported to Trump and his daughter and son
in law. And now you know, he's going to have people inside and
outside. And when you're writing aboutTrump, there's always the question of where
do you stop, where do youlimit what you're saying, Because if you
(17:57):
could really do a lot about youknow, what about the prelude, like
so the the prelude to what's coming, the Chinese trademarks that Ivaca Goblis he
was in the White House. Yeah, the body windfall that Jared got,
the you know, that's the thirtyfour hundred I think ethics smilations conflicts of
(18:19):
interest, thirty four hundred conflicts ofinterests that Trump had, according to the
one of the watchdog groups in Washington. You know, the the money that
all of them made from the Trumphotel in Washington, where I mean,
you know, you could you couldexplain this and how it's going to get
exponentially worse when there were no safeguards, when he's eliminated the civil service,
(18:40):
you know, or you know,and installed partisan loyalists where he doesn't have
anybody with any independence in any ofthe cabinet positions or particular expertise. You
know, when he's stocking his judiciarywith more of the people who brought us,
you know, the repeal of theoverturning of Roe v. Wade and
all the other things, the stoppingthe reduction of authority for states to regulate
(19:04):
guns. I mean, just allkinds of things. So you know,
this is I don't see any impedentsto this including our court system, which
is you know this, we're talkingabout this trial which everyone thought was the
least of it because nothing else isdone. And that's well to the Supreme
Court. And it's the fault ofa Trump judge in Florida, Judge Hannon.
(19:27):
Yeah, yeah, the Trump SupremeCourt. I mean, you know,
it's I hate hear anybody say theTrump's Supreme Court. But that's there's
no question that that's what that that'sthe suffering under which you know, the
American people are living right now.So I want to talk about the part
(19:47):
about the number of high level electedRepublican to refuse to commit to accept the
outcome of the election in twenty fourin November. You know everything anybody who
follow has continued to follow the theconsequences of January sixth, twenty twenty understands
(20:07):
what that means when they say that, you know, we don't know,
we'll we'll see. Well, youknow, is I've seen so many of
them just give kind of this willsee answer. And I do wonder how
many of them are saying we'll see, it'll depend on like if Trump loses,
you know, who are they lookingat it? Like if Trump loses,
then I don't have to fight aboutthis anymore. He'll be gone.
(20:30):
Or if Trump loses, I'll bein there denying the you know, the
legitimacy of the election and leading theway to the next you know, January
sixth, the next march on theCapitol. You know what happened, you
know, remember what they were allin the process of doing. They were,
you know, confirming the election onJanuary sixth, and the outcome in
(20:52):
each state. And that's the onein and of itself that scares me the
most because it's the one that Ithink can lead to not just an I'm
saying justice the wrong word. Itcould potentially lead to an illegitimate president.
But it could very well, evenif it doesn't lead to that, lead
(21:15):
to violence literally across the country.Another second January sixth, in my opinion,
won't just take place in DC.I think that his people will be
riled up and organizing, and you'llsee it at state capitals across the country.
I think the violence could become muchmore destructive than what we saw in
(21:36):
twenty twenty. I share your fears, but I also think the Justice Department
shares your fears because I think itwas just today that they had a big
announcement about the you know, howthe attention they're going to be paying,
and how there will be you know, harsh penalties for anyone who tries to
(21:59):
to to do anything to disrupt elections, accounting and you know, people trying
to vote. You know, there'sjust a lot, a lot of preparation
now. I mean, I youknow, this is another thing that a
Trump administration would just be completely derelicton. I mean, when his own
cybersecurity guy, Chris Kreb said thatit was the most secure election that America
(22:23):
has ever had or something like that, you know, very reassuring about the
election. I guess he forced outabout a minute later. You know.
It's just it's nobody who is nowsaying the kind of people who are now
saying that this was a nightmare.And I was only there to try to
restrain his worst impulses. They're notgoing back there, and he doesn't want
(22:45):
anyone like that. He doesn't wantany I mean, it was already sort
of a central casting type thing orhow much do you hate the mission of
your agency? Great, you're hired, you know, I don't think he's
gonna even look at anyone with qualificationsor not. He's just going to put
his own people in and there willbe I think, as I said in
my piece, if he wants to, you know, destroy every single Biden
(23:08):
climate initiative, reverse it, nomatter you know, what the impact will
be and whether it means China willget the jump on us or whether it
means, you know, pollution willrise to the point of, you know,
hastening global warming. He'll be ableto do it. He will be
(23:29):
able to do it without anyone tellinghim not to. Except one of the
things whenever someone says to me,like, well, what can I do,
Like I'm not part of a biggroup, I'm not this, Like
what do I do here at home? The less Republican support he has in
Congress, the weaker he is,the less able he will be to get
(23:51):
away with what he is planning andwhat he wants to get away with.
And there's another great article I thinkit was in Time magazine just a couple
of weeks ago that people should readabout Trump. He's very you know talk
about saying, you know, sayingthe quiet things out loud, very open,
very open about his planned and forthe United States and for the world,
if he becomes president again. Butthe most important thing that folks at
(24:15):
home can do, folks who arejust working in their community, is make
sure that Republicans lose the Congressional andSenate seats in your state, like,
get involved there. The less Ifeel like, the less protection he has
in Congress, the harder it's goingto be for him to get away with
a lot of these things that we'retalking about. Yeah, I mean,
that was one of the things Iwas going to say. I'm not sure
(24:37):
that everyone understands the risks of electingRepublicans, particularly to the Senate, you
know, and the workings of Congress. I created quite a stir a few
years ago when I said, don'tvote for any Republican for Congress, anyone,
even if they're fabulous. It seemslike you should reward people who voted,
(24:57):
for example, in favor of oryou know, conviction. Don't because
it doesn't matter whether these people areprinciples that stick to their principles. They're
part of a Republican majority, andthey're not going to be in control of
that Republican majority. And what thatmeans is that Republicans will control committees,
they will control what gets to thefloor. You know, people don't see
(25:19):
the cascade effect of this that willthen have many, many more justices,
you know, like Alito and youknow Gorsuch and Clarence Thomas Law and yes,
yeah, yeah, I mean we'llhave. You just can't give an
inch at this point, even ifit penalizes really good people. I have
(25:42):
nothing against Hogan. I think he'sgreat. You know, he was a
good governor, and he seems toyou know, I'm much more liberal than
he is, but he seems likea good person. And you know,
he seems more he's always stuck.He's being more moderate though, right,
he's more of a more of amodic. He's still yes, but you
(26:03):
know, to hear people that Irespect, to hear, you know,
Republicans I respect saying they're going tovote for him because they have he's going
to hold the line and you willadd to the Collins Murkowski caucus and blah
blah blah. That to me justshows no sense of how Congress works.
It will be game over. Well. I got a lot of talk about
(26:25):
getting a lot of you know,pushback back during my Lincoln Project days.
I supported When the Lincoln Project,I had a big problems with the commercial
that they've produced. However, Isupported the idea of trying to undermine Susan
Collins. I think the Collins MurkowskiCaucus has become very damaging because they're unwilling.
It only goes so far. They'renever willing to take that final giant
(26:49):
step where they're withholding their vote andsomething, you know, and actually constructing
a fence to something, actually preventingsomething from happening. It's all talk,
it's all finger wagging and and andI'd rather have and I'm I'm right of
center, and people don't believe meanymore. But I am genuinely principally right
(27:11):
of center. And I'd rather seethe Collins of the world leave the leave
the Senate. And I'd rather seea moderate Democrat at this point. And
in Maine, you have to bemoderate to get elected, no matter what
letter you put by your name.Right, Well, it's it's enabling,
That's what it is, you knowvery much. You go there as a
Republican, even if you disagree,and you are beside yourself about Trump,
(27:37):
if you I mean and and butbut you're voting to convict in a and
overthrow the government trial and nobody's joiningyou. I mean, not enough you.
Not even McConnell is joining you.And now, you know, I
always think about this, how he'sbeing done in by the court he created
with Trump. You know, hesaid, well, I'm not going to
convict him, but we have acriminal justice system and a civil system and
(28:00):
he will get his yeah, rightright when it is right. Yeah.
I mean the can In case isvery instructive because here's the judge. He
well, court, the High Courttoo, but her in particular. He
named a judge who was very inexperienced, but incredibly conservative and loyal to him.
And now we're paying the price.We have a president to We had
(28:22):
a form president who was a nationalsecurity risk who might get elected again.
And not only was he a nationalsecurity risk over the documents, he was
committing national security crimes from months,you know, within months of being inaccurate
becoming president, yes, right,with Russians in the Oval Office and disclosing
to them. You know, Ithink it was Israeli intelligence methods and posting
(28:45):
pictures of things on on social mediathat were classified. I mean, he's
a menace in the Oval Office.I'm sorry, really, it seems like
too soft a word. He reallygets to me too, And not just
because of how damaging and dangerous hewas and continues to be, but because
(29:06):
I think national security and foreign relationsget that's an area where the average voter
isn't really keyed in. Not becausethey're not intelligent or they can't understand it
or I think, but because they'rejust maxed out, you know, and
when they're looking at issues, youknow, national political issues, they that
they have time for, that theythat they want to focus on, they
(29:27):
don't get that far. I thinkthey're just not keyed in. And I
think that they underestimate how really damagingit is to get it wrong with national
security and foreign relations, and apresident who calls the president of another country
and tries to get him, youknow, the conversation with Zelensky on phone,
(29:47):
you know, tries to bribe himinto helping him with his own election
year at home. I just Imean, people die, people can die
because of disclosures like what he made, and people have been polled from their
posts. I mean, he doesn'twell, look, he's he is who
he is. We know he iswho he is. Maybe that's maybe that's
(30:10):
a good place to end it onI you know, I don't want to,
although let's I'm gonna, I'm gonna, let's try to find what is
the uplifting moment in anything that we'rethinking about or talking about today. I'm
I'm hoping, my I'm hoping thatthe more could because as I listen to
this what's coming out in the trialin New York, the more I hear,
the more, you know, I'mlearning more and more things I never
(30:33):
heard before that I find so shockingand dangerous and undermining of you know,
leadership and democracy. So I'm hopingthat there are more and more Americans who
are just catch up with the newsat six or seven o'clock at night,
and that they're hearing it too,and that they're hearing it the same way
that I hear it. That's mypositive thought for the day I need from
(30:55):
you. Yes, No, Iagree with your thought. And my own
thought is that there's so much dataand ammunition for Democrats to use on immigration
and border security, and now anew study on crime that shows Democrats have
just been presiding over falling crime,rising public safety funding. There's a lot
(31:18):
that can happen, and I don'tthink that those of us who focus on
the national situation are going to seeit necessarily, but the candidates who need
these talking points and advertising points,hopefully we'll see them, from you know,
senating candidates to House candidates, governors, state legislatures. The talking points
are there, the data is there, the record is there, and so
(31:42):
I have faith in democratic strategists andcandidates at this point that by the time
we are, you know, atLabor Day, by the time we're past
the conventions, this stuff is goingto be blanketing, blanketing America. Maybe
you know in increments that we're notpaying attention to a state legislative rates or
something. But I think right yougiving out the crime is the best one
(32:07):
for state candidates, you know,for people who are you people out there
who are looking at it or thinkingabout running or anything else, that they
should go and find those then informationon falling crime rates in America, because
it is it's kind of surprising.I saw some of that as well.
The numbers are quite surprising. Sothat's the goodness theirs Way Research Report there
you go, third that is thatis what it was. Third Way Research
(32:30):
Report. God you remember everything,Jill, Your brain is like everything,
Yeah, and we're liking Encyclopedia.Thank you so much Jill for joining us
and being here with us today.It's Jill Lawrence. Make sure you catch
her most recent article. It's inthe Bulwark Today, the Bulwark dot com.
(32:50):
You can also find her on Twitterat Jill D. Lawrence and that's
l A W R E n CE. I got it wrong the first
time I went looking for you.A lifetime of experience and knowledge and insights,
Jill. Thank you so much forsharing it with us. I appreciate
you being here. Thank you,Jennifer. It was fun conversation. Always,
(33:14):
it's always an interesting conversation when it'syou, This is Jennifer Whore and
you're listening to Is it just me? Have we all lost our minds?
I appreciate you tuning in, Iappreciate you caring, and we will,
as always be back again next week. Thank you for tuning in, Jill,
Thanks for being here.
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