February 13, 2024 • 36 mins
Adam Kinzinger, former congressmen and author of Renegade: Defending Democracy and Liberty in Our Divided Country, joins us to talk about preserving democracy, how the GOP has lost their sense of ethics, where the US fits in in the Russia/Ukraine conflict, and toxic masculinity in politics.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Is it just me? Or havewe all lost our minds? It's a
question I've been asking myself on repeatfor the last eight years, and I
know I'm not alone in that.Is it the politics, is it the
culture? Or am I just gettingold? Hi? I'm Jennifer Horn and
I'm a former Republican strategist and partyleader turned independent sanity activist. I decided
(00:24):
to do this podcast so we couldexplore these questions. I'll bring experts to
the table from politics and media andculture. We'll have raw, insightful conversations
with the clear goal of getting tothe bottom of it all. One way
or another. We've all lost ourminds, and I hope you'll join us
on the journey to find them again. Hi, this is Jennifer Horn,
(00:46):
and you're listening to Is it justme? Or have we all lost our
minds? Unfortunately, it seems likethe answer to that question has not really
changed much since we started this podcastlast year. But now that we are
in the midst of a real presidentialcycle time, it does seem like things
are getting crazier and crazier. Andas I've said to all of you so
(01:07):
many times, I become more andmore concerned about just the basic principle of
democracy and the idea that perhaps asAmericans we are becoming lazy in its defense,
and what that could really lead to. I'm very, very happy to
have our guest with us today.He's going to be a great voice for
this topic. And I know thateveryone listening already knows who he is,
(01:30):
but former Congressman Adam Kinsinger's retired lieutenantcolonel from the Air Force. He served
from twenty eleven to twenty twenty threerepresenting the eleventh Congressional District in Illinois,
during which time I would say heprobably became best known for his votes to
impeach Donald Trump. He's the authorof New York Times bestseller The Renegade,
(01:53):
and for many has become a heroof sorts for the pro democracy movement in
this country that we talk about somuch on this podcast. Adam, thank
you so much for joining us today. It's great to have you here.
Yeah, it's good to be withyou. And you know what, we're
all losing our minds. So it'sit's not just you anymore. You just
don't have to change the name towe're all losing our minds here, that's
(02:14):
right. That's right. I kindof feel like it's true in all parts
of life at some point or another, but now in particular. Yeah,
the uh here, I'm going totell you my biggest concern. I'm going
to try to keep trapp of mynotes so we cover everything I thought of
before you got on, before youand I got on the air together.
But I want to tell you mybiggest concern, and it's what I referenced
(02:35):
in the introduction, that we havebecome desensitized to what is genuinely outrageous or
dangerous when it comes to our electedleaders and democracy in our country. And
I'm going to share with you aquick little story because it really kind of
made me realize just how important thisis. Everybody knows. I have five
(02:59):
kids. They're all adults. Now. I have a son who's thirty two,
and he's more of a libertarian thana conservative or a Democrat, which
I kind of really like in him. I admired that in him, and
he never talking very recently about this. For whatever reason in his mind,
he just can't consider voting for JoeBiden. I don't understand it. He
(03:21):
and I've talked about it in greatdepth. He just can't do it.
He won't vote for Donald Trump either. He'll likely vote for a libertarian or
write somebody in that he feels hereally can that he can support, you
know, with honor. And Ilike that about him as well. But
as we were talking and I wastalking to about democracy and what I thought
the danger of Donald Trump really is, he just couldn't embrace it the same
(03:46):
way I did. He kept thinkssaying I was overreacting that the worst thing
that happens is he's in the WhiteHouse for four years, that he'll be
surrounded by people that won't let anythingreally dramatic happen. And I had like,
did you I know he paid attentfor Trump's first four years, Like
he just can't embrace the idea thatit's genuinely dangerous and that we talked about
(04:08):
democracy a lot, the idea thatdemocracy could be at risk. And I
think he's like millions of others whofeel the same way. Like, so
what am I missing in trying toexpress that in a way that is meaningful
or what is it? What's outthere? My son's smart, he's educated,
he loves his country, loves hisfamily. What are we missing?
(04:29):
Yeah, I look I don't thinkyou're missing anything. In fact, I
think you're right, and I'm frightenedby it. And it's part of the
deal that what happens when you getin okay, you know, four years
of insanity, you kind of havemuscle memory of what it was like before
insanity, right, you know,you kind of like, okay, four
years of Donald Trump. I rememberwhat it was like under Obama, under
(04:50):
w under Clinton, under you know, HW and kind of how normal politics
worked. Well, you know,in the last four years under Joe Biden
that Joe Biden has have been bad, but there's still been this insanity in
the background. Everybody's talking about DonaldTrump. Everybody's you know, you watch
the House of Representatives are all yellingat each other. They can't get anything
done. What I worry about ifyou think about you know, your son's
(05:13):
age. He's thirty two, whichis old, and it seems old to
us if you figure it's been sincereally two thousands, since politics was kind
of a gentleman sport. If youwill, right, he was, he
would have been what Night right exactly, And so this muscle memory of how
things used to be is gone.On top of that, you know,
(05:33):
we're kind of suffering from, inessence, the luxury of not having any
outside threats. I mean, really, since nine to eleven, we haven't
had any outside threats. So theidea that democracy is a threat is kind
of foreign to us. The ideathat there are powers out there would seek
to do something to us is kindof foreign to us. And for whatever
(05:54):
reason, people have been overtaken bythis what I think is a false dichotomy
of you're either with Joe Biden oryou're with Donald Trump. You're either one
kind of crazy or another kind ofcrazy. You're either the far left or
the far right. They've bought intothat, and the truth is there's a
whole different way, but nobody's talkingabout it. And I worry that people
are being basically brainwashed into believing ifyou don't like Joe Biden, you have
(06:18):
to like Donald Trump. And that'sjust not the case. It's and it's
not that kind of a choice.And it's something I've talked about a lot.
I think you make a great pointthat we have My son and my
children are in this generation that hasonly known this kind of politics. You
know, they have only seen andwhen I can I remember when I ran
(06:40):
for Congress in two thousand and eight. That you know, one of the
things I would talk about all thetime was that I think people just say,
oh, politics, that's just theway it is. They're all corrupt
one way or another. They're allequally bad one way or another. But
we've reached and I would say,we've got to fight against that. We
can't accept that. But I thinkwe've reached a point where they're not all
bad add the same way, youknow, And it's hard for I'm most
(07:02):
former Republican. I don't know ifyou're still a registered Republican or not.
Yeah, I haven't voted Republican andI don't intend to, but I'm not
shedding the title yet. Yeah,well I did. And one of the
things that I've said is I won'tvote for any Republican who won't fully denounce
Donald Trump and trump Ism. Ifyou're not willing to acknowledge, and I
(07:27):
don't care if you say it's yourfault, it's not your fault anything else.
If you can't denounce it at thisstage in our development as as a
country, then I don't want toput my vote behind you, and I'll
join my son and so many others, and writing in somebody that I honor,
a somebody that I'll write in AdamPinsinger this year, you know,
something like that, or I'll votefor Biden. I'm open to voting for
(07:47):
Biden. So, like how,I do feel like that's part of the
I keep saying laziness, and Itruly don't want to offend people have them
when I say that, But Ithink people have lost sight of what democracy,
what it means to us personally,if democracy is truly lost, and
(08:07):
if they discount the idea that DonaldTrump is genuinely a threat to that democracy.
Yeah, and I think you knowwhat I try to remind you is,
let's flip the script here. Soif you consider yourself a Republican and
you're not offended by the idea ofDonald Trump, put Donald Trump's words in
Joe Biden's mouth, because I'm goingto tell you, if the Republicans continue
(08:28):
down this authoritarian path, there willbe a day, maybe soon, I
don't know where Democrats will win.And Democrats then will have every right to
react and hope they don't, butthey'll have every right to be just as
authoritarian, and all of a suddenyou've lost your ability to have that sense
of outrage. I got to tellyou something interesting too, which is something
that I think is uniquely happening amongmen, as particularly young men right now.
(08:50):
I don't know if this will affectyour son or not. So there
is this and we have to behonest about it. There's been this kind
of I don't know many reduction ofmasculine traits I don't not like, but
like denegrating it. That's the wordI'm looking at where tell you they're masculinity.
(09:11):
That's right. There is toxic masculinity, but masculinity is not toxic.
Exactly what you've seen in young menparticularly is they are feeling very isolated,
they are feeling very put down,and I think that's why you're seeing a
huge number of them, particularly turninto Donald Trump. Because if you're sitting
here feeling like you, you knowwho you are, naturally is something that
(09:35):
is looked down on by society orbad. All of a sudden, this
dude comes along who unfortunately shows masculinitythrough irreverence by being a complete ahole that
can be attractive to you, andunfortunately there's nothing on the other side saying
no, masculinity is Okay, it'sa good thing. Masculinity is also kind.
(09:56):
Masculinity fights for the for the defense. It's less. Masculinity is compassionate.
Instead, you only see this thingssidesaying masculinity is great and it's toxic.
And I worry that that's why we'relosing a huge generation of men,
not just white men, we're losingAfrican American mens. Like men, You're
seeing that education and gender is becomingone of the biggest and dividing forces in
(10:20):
today's politics. That is disturbing,especially since we're just about fifty to fifty
between men and women, and theimpact that that can have. And it's
interesting that it's because we've kind ofbeen addressing that and struggling with that for
decades. You know, men inthe family and you know men in the
(10:43):
workplace, and you know these differentand to see what a really extraordinary impact
that is now having on our politics, it's it's really concerning. It's really
concerning, and anybody can whether youlook at the polling or the you know,
the focus groups, things like that. I think what you said is
absolutely true. We see it,we see it. I don't through very
clearly. So I want to talkwhen you were talking just now about masculinity,
(11:09):
toxic masculinity versus masculinity. I wasjust through my head thinking, you
know, my kids have had anawesome example in my husband and their father
as to how to be a man. What you know, how how masculinity
is balanced with sensitivity and caring andbeing there and that sort of thing.
And it sort of led me rightaway, believe it or not, to
(11:33):
the to the GOP in general,that I believe that the GOP has lost
their sense of honor and ethics,and having been a former state chair,
I think of the GOP as avery broad I don't just mean Kevin McCarthy
or Mike Johnson or somebody like that. And you know, I look at
how Rona has conducted herself running theparty. I think about some of the
(11:58):
other state chairs that I know thatthat are in seats now, and I
find that to be very disturbing thatthe GOP has sort of publicly identified that
we don't care about honor and integrityand truth anymore. We care just about
I was gonna say, we justcare about winning, but they stayed with
Trump in spite of the fact thatthey're not winning. I have a hard
(12:20):
time wrapping my head around it anddefining it like what has had what has
happened to the party from the partyperspective? Yeah, I mean, look,
here's an interesting thing that I've neverunderstood is Ronna Romney McDaniel dropping the
name Romney Right, How you couldall of a sudden be embarrassed of your
family, Not because she's probably trulyembarrassed of mitt, but because she wants
(12:45):
to not have to deal with that. And I mean I couldn't imagine having
to shed the name Kinsinger because Iwant it power. I mean, it's
foreign to me. And the problemis is the people that it's foreign to
that don't understand it. Like youand I. We got out of politics
because it just it's no longer aplace for us. There's no longer a
welcome that for So here's I heardsomebody once talking about the importance of in
(13:09):
essence shame as a tool of society. And now shame is bad. We
don't want people to have shame.But let's think about it societally. Why
is it that you know, somebodywho's racist, for instance, doesn't go
on national TV and say, youknow, a racist word. Well,
because society would shame them and pushthem aside, and and you know,
(13:30):
and detegrade them, and that societyknow that, yes, yeah, and
that was exactly but that societal shameand being picked out of a tribe,
by the way, is a verypowerful weapon. And so all of a
sudden there was this death of shamewithin the GOP. Donald Trump really accelerated
it. You know, it's it'sthe question of did Donald Trump cause it
(13:52):
or was he a result? Ireally think he was a little of both.
He was a result, but healso accelerated this where he all of
a sudden showed people you don't haveto be worried if you get accused of
rape. You don't even have tobe worried if you rape somebody. All
you have to do is stand upand say you don't care, or you
know, openly lie or say thingslike Vladimir Putin, you know, you
trust him over the words of ourown intelligence agencies. And once Donald Trump
(14:18):
gave these leaders I'll call him leadersin quotations cover, they started to realize
they could do the same thing.And then it became to the point where
they realized they had to do thesame thing. You could no longer have
a sense of honor, because ifyou showed a sense of honor, you
would be going against Donald Trump.Look at Marco Rubio this weekend saying about
Donald You know, Marco Rubio,many of us had a great deal of
(14:39):
respect for saying that he doesn't believeor doesn't care what Donald Trump had to
say inviting Russia to attack NATO.Now he got happy to feel like a
piece of garbage for that, buthe knows he had to take that approach
to stay in the tribe, andbeing kicked out of the tribe is a
very, very compelling weapon to keeppeople on line. That's fascinating. I
(15:01):
think that's exactly right when you talkabout being kicked out of the tribe.
One of the things I thought abouta lot in the last you know,
eight years, is the party base, the voters who show up in primaries
and being shocked at the outcome ofa lot of those primaries and what they're
willing to embrace and the things they'llsay on TV on election Day and things
like that. And that's the tribe. Isn't just Congress and Trump. That's
(15:24):
the tribe. Those guys are thetribe as well. And you know,
we all sort of understand the ideaof being in a tribe, not a
tribe. And I often think aboutthe members of the r n C,
you know, the one sixty eightwho are the chairman, and the too
(15:45):
minimen committee women, and just howthat kind of spreads the idea of the
tribe, and how this horrible ideaof trump Ism just becoming okay, just
becoming accepted. And you said somethingYeah, when you said something else,
I said to go, I wantedto grab And now now I'm losing it
for a minute. Was it?Yeah, this is on my list of
(16:06):
questions. You said, is itbecause of Trump? Is it not because
of Trump? That's one of thethings I was going to ask you,
like, do I don't think youcan blame Trump when it's millions and millions
and millions of Americans who are sayingI kind of like what he's saying.
He sounds good to me. I'mgoing to vote for that. Yeah,
I mean I kind of see aos, like, you know, how do
you look at a cult? Right? On the one hand, you know,
let's stick to korrec, you know. David Koresh. David Koresh was
(16:30):
the leader of the call. DavidKoresh, you know, gave the fuel
to the fire that led to alot of what you saw there. But
there were people that had to bewilling to go along with it. Why
is it that, you know,my parents, for instance, I mean,
I guess they weren't exposed to it, but why didn't they go along
with the Koresh cult. Well becausethey had a different mindset, right,
(16:52):
So David and Koresh knew what thatfertile ground was found the people who were
susceptible to that need for community.Like if you look at what MAGA is,
you know, why again, whyis it that Donald Trump can stand
up and on the one hand saytake the vaccine. On another hand say
don't take the vaccine. No matterwhat he says, people cheer. He
makes fun of Nikki Haley's husband,you know, for being the yes being
(17:17):
in the military. Yeah, it'sincredible. What happens is you need that
community, that sense of safety.There are people that feel very isolated right
now. And MAGA isn't about politicsanymore. It's not about a worldview.
It's now about do you belong towhatever this organization is so that you can
feel a sense of safety. Itdoesn't matter how crazy it is, you
(17:40):
feel a sense of safety in there. And that's what you're seeing with all
these folks. It's just like youcome along, You're like, Okay,
now I'm in this club. Idon't care what I say, I don't
care what I do, but I'mfinding this certain safety. And so Donald
Trump comes along and he provides theleadership in that life kind of safety mechanism,
(18:02):
my guest, because he provides afuel. So it's a little of
both. There was that desire forit there and then Donald Trump knew how
to harvest it. So I thinkthat, yeah, there would be a
Donald Trump that would have come alongeventually, but I don't know the party
would be in this position without him. I agree with that, and I've
had the opportunity to speak with someof the folks who were in the Capitol
(18:22):
on January sixth. One of thesomebody who you know, did time and
had been convicted, And what Ifind that is common between many of them
is that they regret doing it.And when you listen to the ones who
regret it, when you listen tothem talk about what led them there,
it's exactly what you just said thatyou know that they were part of something
(18:44):
that they thought was going to bethis extraordinary movement that they thought was going
to make them special, part ofa group that I think that's a big
part of it, and the wholeeverything we know about cults and cult leaders.
I mean, Trump is he's righton the target there, folks you're
listening to Is it just me orwe all lost our mind on Jennifer Horn
(19:07):
And we're talking to former Congressman AdamKinsinger about how to preserve democracy in America
today. And I think what itcomes down to right now is being more
more conscious and more informed in theway that you're presenting it, Adam,
you know, thinking about it.I guess more thinking about it from that
kind of perspective. Let's talk alittle bit about what's happening today in politics
(19:32):
and how this perspective and everything mightimpact it. We've got Nikki Heally running
a very far second. If we'rebeing realistic about all the numbers to Donald
Trump, you know, in theGOP primary, the Democrats are going to
elect Joe Biden. So in theend, if you're looking for primary major
(19:53):
candidates, those are going to bethe two names on the ballot. But
let's speak apart what's happening in theGOP. I left the GOP, as
I said, but I still havea depth of concern about it. I
think our country needs an honorable conservativevoice in politics. Is she taking I've
been critical of Nikki Heally and theapproach that she took. I think she
(20:15):
missed the opportunity to really be competitivetwo or three months before the Newmansire primary.
But talk to me a little bitlike is she really competitive? And
what is there a good purpose thatshe serves by staying in the race and
continuing to, you know, bethe voice that she is, at least
as Trump goes through this process.Well, first of all, I agree
(20:37):
with you. I think that firstdebate in Milwaukee, when all of them
except Chris Christy and Asa Hodgson raisedtheir hand that they would support Donald Trump
no matter what come Hell or Eyewater, that is when Donald Trump got reelected.
That was the moment I agree andgoes, Look, you know,
if you're a Republican voter, DonaldTrump is your main influencer, but there's
(20:59):
still a second tier of people youpay attention to. And everybody on that
debate stage was a second tier influencer. And when they all say like,
oh, yeah, we think DonaldTrump is a victim of a witch hunt.
Like, you're going to then believethat Donald Trump is a victim of
a witch hunt. And if youbelieve that, right, are you going
to support for President Donald Trump?The victim? Right? They sold their
(21:22):
they showed their integrity, they soldanything they say after that, The answer
is yeah, but you're going tovote for Trump. Yeah. It's incredible
and so and I so with Nikki, I've been disappointed too. I mean,
look, I I would say probably, with the exception of Chris Christy,
of all the candidates that ran,she and I would probably be the
closest in terms of what we believe. She's a you know, a hawk
(21:44):
on foreign policy, which is thething that really drew me to the GOP
ironically from the beginning. And nowthey're you know, I think I'm probably
closer to Democrats on foreign policy.Isn't that, Ozar, Isn't that a
bizarre experience have in your head asa lifelong Republican. Yeah, especially,
but I see Democrats talking about defendingUkraine and I see Republicans. You know,
(22:04):
look, and we could talk aboutthat, but I saw this Republican
Party go into Putin years ago.But anyway, so I think Nikki Haley
plays an important role and I wantto see her stay in because if anything,
yeah, she's probably gonna get beatpretty handily, but there's still a
significant number of people that are goingto vote for her, and the longer
she can hold them away from DonaldTrump, the more it's get a ball.
(22:29):
Look, I think any Republican that'snot going to vote for Donald Trump
should vote for Joe Biden, eventhough I'm not gonna love doing it,
but I think we should because it'sreally a binary choice. That said,
we also need to give people permissionto just not vote or to vote third
party, because if it's coming,I have to vote lesser of two evils,
and I just can't pull the triggerfor you know, Joe Biden.
(22:51):
Yeah, then you can vote thirdparty. That's a way to kind of
say, that's probably frankly in twentysixteen, I've gave you a Trump vote
to the other the other candidate.That's right, really fortunately either right,
yeah, that's true, but it'sbetter than voting for Donald Trump. And
and so, but the real questionis, and I think sadly we all
know the answer is when Nicky Hayleydoes drop out, what does she do
(23:12):
If she found her courage to sayI cannot support Donald Trump. He is
a bad man, X, Yand Z, then I think that those
numbers that she has peeled off willactually make a difference in the election.
I'm not holding my breath that she'sgoing to do that, because everybody else
that has had to drop out hasdebased themselves. That Tim Scott, being
(23:36):
the worst of them, has basedthemselves. Yes for Donald Trump. Yeah,
it's seeing Tim Scott in New Hampshire, but standing behind him on that
stage. I just debased is theright word. And it's sickening in a
way. It just because again becauseI feel like there's so much at stake,
and Tim Scott's another one that I'vealways admired, that I used to
(23:56):
admire, you know, another oneup there. So with Nicky though,
you know, she was one ofthe loudest anti Trump voices out there in
twenty sixteen, and she was veryactive with you know, supporting Rubio's effort.
They were everywhere. They were inspirationalin their language for people like myself.
And then he became president, shebecame his ambassador to the UN,
(24:18):
so when people say, gee,I hope she'll stand up, you know,
my thought is always I think she'skind of already shown her willingness to
stand up now that he is whohe is. But I agree with you,
I would love to see that.And she doesn't even have to endorse
by the She can just say thathe's miserable and I won't be voting for
him, and it would it wouldhave a significant impact in certain demographics within
(24:41):
the GOP. So that would beawesome. Let's go back and talk about
something you just mentioned that's not onmy list, but it's important. We
had be called were quickly are theGOP is quickly becoming very isolationist as a
nation. And we used to understandwhy that was bad, why that was
a danger to you know, asas a democratic, as a democracy,
(25:02):
as a country, and this ideathat suddenly they are listening to Carlson who's
in Russia to interview Putin, andyou know, the whole we have to
have no money go to Ukraine likeI could. But you can go through
this whole list of the crazy thingsand been said. Marjorie Taylor Green is
suddenly the party's leader on foreign policy. Explain to me and to our listeners
(25:30):
again from the perspective of how thiscould damage or undermine democracy in our own
country, much less other democratic nationsaround the world when the US won't defend
Ukraine. Yeah, I mean Olemana'sfirst off say, I think part of
the thing going on here is,you know, there are some in the
Republican Party that have always been kindof the you know, there's always been
(25:53):
this like isolation wing a little bit, but it's been small, and so
there's some that legitimately believe this,you know, that we shouldn't be doing
anything in the world. I disagree, but at least I respect a legitimate
viewpoint. Now there are some thatliterally what the Republican Party has become is
the most extreme thing ever said.Is now what we want to take You
(26:17):
remember these experiences. I think youguys had Lincoln Day dinners in New Hampshire
as well. Yeah, you goto a Lincoln Day dinner and there's always
that table of weirdos there in thecorner, you know, the ones with
the weird buttons and the science andthey're whatever theories. Well then next year,
you know, when you go backto that Lincoln Day dinner, those
few people at that weird table thatwill now be what everybody believes in the
(26:38):
room as a baseline, and thenthere will be another weird table with new
weird stuff. That's what started happeningwith Russia, and it all became about
somehow Ukraine got tied with being democratsand Russia got tied with being republicans.
By the way, Russia can continueto prosecute Christians in Russia. If you
go there as a missionary, you'llbe arrest If you have a Bible in
(27:00):
Russia, you'll be arrested. Yetsomehow they think he's this fighter for that.
But the war is I think thisis the most important fight of frankly
anything in our generation, even probablynine to eleven, is the ability for
Ukraine to defend itself because look,if you look at here, we're tearing
(27:21):
ourselves apart as a country. InUkraine, you take people that were in
different political parties. The old sayingwas you'd put two people in a room
and they'd create three political parties inUkraine, so it was a very divided
country. But you'll take a welder, a musician, a businessman, and
now they are all in the trenches, fighting to defend their country to the
death, literally to the death,you know, because Vladimir Putin has said
(27:44):
it. Eventually, you just haveto take him at his word that once
he marches over Ukraine, he isgoing to test NATO, He's going to
test Estonia eleven via Lithuania. Whathappens when all the other democracies in the
world realized that nothing can stand againsthim, because in the United States has
backed the way, they will suefor peace with Russia. Russia will continue
to march in Europe. Russia willbegin to write the rules now of trade
(28:10):
and commerce. Russia will start tocreate the world's reserve currency with China,
which they're already trying to do.And if you think our economy is struggling
now, by the way, waituntil we lose the world's reserve currency status
and we can't write the rules oftrade and right, and wait until we
have to actually go to war todefend our borders or anything to try to
(28:32):
convince anybody to fight with us,when all we've done is abandon everybody that's
ever fought with us. This isa no brainer, and quite honestly,
what we're spinning in Ukraine is tenpercent of our defense budget, of which
thirty to forty percent of our defensebudget is propped up to defend against Russia.
And now we've got a bargain dealwhere we can beat them for about
(28:52):
a fraction of what we spin deposture against them every year. It is
it is nonsense that we would beopposed to this, But this is what
happens on a time where everybody justwants to quote unquote own the Libs.
They want to own the Libs,and they don't want They have this sense
of nobody, nobody. You know, we don't need that, We don't
(29:15):
need anybody out there. We don'tneed this is ridiculous, We're I was
actually in Ukraine shortly after the OrangeRevolution as part of an organization that worked
with bringing care to young people whowere affected by Chernobyl and I had a
chance to I forget it. Idon't think they call it the Presidential Square.
I can't remember exactly, but thespace where the light on, yes,
(29:40):
yes, I think so, Ithink so. But where they all
had gathered, and the young ladyI was with was maybe twenty one,
twenty two, and she had beenthere like it was the whole thing was
powered by young people for the mostpart, and I was so impressed with
her ability to articulate why this happened, what they were looking for, and
and really talk about independence and democracyin a way that nobody in the Republican
(30:06):
Party, no leader in the partytoday can articulate. And and you know,
so, I really I have asense that it's young people who are
going to get us back on trackhere in our country. But at the
same time, I worry about thefact that they had never had that experience,
They'd never had to confront what youngpeople in Ukraine had to confront growing
(30:26):
up, and what they thought theywere fighting back against. And I guess
I keep circling back while I'm talkingto you about this whole idea of you
know, preserving it and how dowe save it for I used to talk
about my children, Now I talkabout my grandchildren. So I know that
you have I could talk to youforever, and I'm trying not to do
that. I know that you haveto hit the road in a minute,
So let me ask you kind ofas a wrap up, then, like
(30:48):
what do we do? I amnot the chairman of a super pack.
I do not sing. I nolonger have any desire to sit in Congress.
You know, I'm trying to usemy voice in the way that I
know how to. But what dowe do as a mottlement? How do
we really inspire and light of fireunder the people? The number of people?
(31:11):
We need to really have a movementthat will draw us back from the
edge, because I think I thinkwe're facing you know, we're facing a
press of this year. Yeah,I think we are too. I'll give
you the broader and then the individualanswer. So the broader answer is this
is this is a year where wehave got to put aside our petty differences.
(31:32):
I can't tell you, Jennifer andyou have the same experience. How
many people I'll see you and it'sjust Twitter. But you know Twitter has
some reflection of reality where it'll belike, oh, you say all this,
but you voted for Trump's policies onceyour pro life or your whatever,
and it's like, look, okay, if you are concerned about democracy and
then you are going to nitpick thatsomebody has a different view to from you,
(31:56):
I would argue that you don't evenunderstand what democracy is if you don't
think somebody's allowed to have a differentview than you, right, Because exactly
what democracy is is taking people withdifferent views, learning to put those views
into argument and come out with somethingthat's probably better than what you ever believed.
Right. So what we need isan uncomfortable alliance between the left the
(32:21):
same right in the center. Andif we want to sit around and argue
about our differences on tax policies,we can do that after we win this
fight, because hopefully after we winthis fight, we have the luxury to
disagree with each other again, becauseotherwise we're going to be yearning for the
day when we could talk about oneof us being pro life the other being
pro choice, and how we getthrough that, because we'd be dealing with
(32:43):
the inability to not have an opinion. So, in the broader sense,
I'd say to this, like,find common cause with people that think differently
than you if they believe in democracy, because trust me, life is boring
if everybody thinks like you. Ialways joke about this money. Why do
we make friends based on who hasa certain political belief that, to me
(33:05):
is the most acidine thing I wantto make a friend on. I want
a friend who I like to drinkbeer with and hang out, not who
has a Masonian government that happens tobe the same as mine. On the
individual level, the thing I'm concernedabout more than anything over the next ten
months the magas the forces of chaosfeed on chaos. So when we wake
(33:29):
up and we read the news andit's like Donald Trump did some insane thing,
we get exhausted reading it. Ido, right, because I'm sitting
here, like, what can wesay and nobody's gonna listen and whatever,
and we have a tendency to withdrawand retreat. The forces of chaos get
energized by that. So what Iwould say to everybody is, individually,
(33:52):
take that burden you're carrying on yourshoulders right now to save the world and
just drop it. Right. It'snot on you to save the world.
It's not on me, it's noton you, it's not on anybody.
It's on us collectively. But noneof us can do it alone. And
if you carry this burden that saysI have to be the one and I'm
(34:14):
not tweeting enough and I can't dothis enough, you will sometime in the
next nine months give up. Youwill say I've had enough. And the
biggest danger is not that you didn'ttweet enough this year. The biggest danger
is that you get discouraged and giveup. So everybody has got a man
their foxhole, right. You know, we're in the middle of a battle.
(34:35):
The most heroic thing you can dois not let anybody past your foxhole.
It's not to charge the hill,it's to not let anybody pass.
That's the best thing we can doright now is hold fast and work together
as this kind of organism that somehowis gonna function, and that's how we
win. Take the burden of theworld off your shoulders and don't give up
(34:57):
the fight. I love that.I love that so much. The and
then I do think there are somany people out there who feel that,
who feel that, And I've alwayssaid, you know, Twitter is not
real life. It is a reflectionof certain things. But you know,
you don't need to individually destroy everyhuman being on Twitter who expresses a thought
different than yours. That's not goingto move us forward at all. Thank
(35:22):
you so much, Thanks so muchfor being here, folks. We've been
talking to former Congressman Adam Kinzinger.Find his book The Renegade. It was
a New York Times bestseller as soonas it came out. It is worth
to read. And then to remindme also, Kindresman, you have an
organization that you're part of now thatyou had done some great work with already
(35:43):
that I'm sure you're going to continuewith. Yeah, we've got Country Forsa's
Country the number one st dot comand uh, it's part of this,
you know, broader umbrella of thepro democracy movement. We've got academies for
new candidates. We're working on takingout pretty crazy candidates as well. That's
the one thing we want to dois defeat MAGA and uh. And then
I have a sub stack and it'sjust Adam Kinsinger. I'm just writing some
(36:06):
of my thoughts and getting it outof my system there as well. So
thank you. It's good. Itwas good to be with you. It
was great having you with us,Adam Kinsinger. Everybody check it out.
I sir, have a wonderful day. We appreciate your time. You too. Take care
Is it just me? Or havewe all lost our minds? It's a
question I've been asking myself on repeatfor the last eight years, and I
know I'm not alone in that.Is it the politics, is it the
culture? Or am I just gettingold? Hi? I'm Jennifer Horn and
I'm a former Republican strategist and partyleader turned independent sanity activist. I decided
(00:24):
to do this podcast so we couldexplore these questions. I'll bring experts to
the table from politics and media andculture. We'll have raw, insightful conversations
with the clear goal of getting tothe bottom of it all. One way
or another. We've all lost ourminds, and I hope you'll join us
on the journey to find them again. Hi, this is Jennifer Horn,
(00:46):
and you're listening to Is it justme? Or have we all lost our
minds? Unfortunately, it seems likethe answer to that question has not really
changed much since we started this podcastlast year. But now that we are
in the midst of a real presidentialcycle time, it does seem like things
are getting crazier and crazier. Andas I've said to all of you so
(01:07):
many times, I become more andmore concerned about just the basic principle of
democracy and the idea that perhaps asAmericans we are becoming lazy in its defense,
and what that could really lead to. I'm very, very happy to
have our guest with us today.He's going to be a great voice for
this topic. And I know thateveryone listening already knows who he is,
(01:30):
but former Congressman Adam Kinsinger's retired lieutenantcolonel from the Air Force. He served
from twenty eleven to twenty twenty threerepresenting the eleventh Congressional District in Illinois,
during which time I would say heprobably became best known for his votes to
impeach Donald Trump. He's the authorof New York Times bestseller The Renegade,
(01:53):
and for many has become a heroof sorts for the pro democracy movement in
this country that we talk about somuch on this podcast. Adam, thank
you so much for joining us today. It's great to have you here.
Yeah, it's good to be withyou. And you know what, we're
all losing our minds. So it'sit's not just you anymore. You just
don't have to change the name towe're all losing our minds here, that's
(02:14):
right. That's right. I kindof feel like it's true in all parts
of life at some point or another, but now in particular. Yeah,
the uh here, I'm going totell you my biggest concern. I'm going
to try to keep trapp of mynotes so we cover everything I thought of
before you got on, before youand I got on the air together.
But I want to tell you mybiggest concern, and it's what I referenced
(02:35):
in the introduction, that we havebecome desensitized to what is genuinely outrageous or
dangerous when it comes to our electedleaders and democracy in our country. And
I'm going to share with you aquick little story because it really kind of
made me realize just how important thisis. Everybody knows. I have five
(02:59):
kids. They're all adults. Now. I have a son who's thirty two,
and he's more of a libertarian thana conservative or a Democrat, which
I kind of really like in him. I admired that in him, and
he never talking very recently about this. For whatever reason in his mind,
he just can't consider voting for JoeBiden. I don't understand it. He
(03:21):
and I've talked about it in greatdepth. He just can't do it.
He won't vote for Donald Trump either. He'll likely vote for a libertarian or
write somebody in that he feels hereally can that he can support, you
know, with honor. And Ilike that about him as well. But
as we were talking and I wastalking to about democracy and what I thought
the danger of Donald Trump really is, he just couldn't embrace it the same
(03:46):
way I did. He kept thinkssaying I was overreacting that the worst thing
that happens is he's in the WhiteHouse for four years, that he'll be
surrounded by people that won't let anythingreally dramatic happen. And I had like,
did you I know he paid attentfor Trump's first four years, Like
he just can't embrace the idea thatit's genuinely dangerous and that we talked about
(04:08):
democracy a lot, the idea thatdemocracy could be at risk. And I
think he's like millions of others whofeel the same way. Like, so
what am I missing in trying toexpress that in a way that is meaningful
or what is it? What's outthere? My son's smart, he's educated,
he loves his country, loves hisfamily. What are we missing?
(04:29):
Yeah, I look I don't thinkyou're missing anything. In fact, I
think you're right, and I'm frightenedby it. And it's part of the
deal that what happens when you getin okay, you know, four years
of insanity, you kind of havemuscle memory of what it was like before
insanity, right, you know,you kind of like, okay, four
years of Donald Trump. I rememberwhat it was like under Obama, under
(04:50):
w under Clinton, under you know, HW and kind of how normal politics
worked. Well, you know,in the last four years under Joe Biden
that Joe Biden has have been bad, but there's still been this insanity in
the background. Everybody's talking about DonaldTrump. Everybody's you know, you watch
the House of Representatives are all yellingat each other. They can't get anything
done. What I worry about ifyou think about you know, your son's
(05:13):
age. He's thirty two, whichis old, and it seems old to
us if you figure it's been sincereally two thousands, since politics was kind
of a gentleman sport. If youwill, right, he was, he
would have been what Night right exactly, And so this muscle memory of how
things used to be is gone.On top of that, you know,
(05:33):
we're kind of suffering from, inessence, the luxury of not having any
outside threats. I mean, really, since nine to eleven, we haven't
had any outside threats. So theidea that democracy is a threat is kind
of foreign to us. The ideathat there are powers out there would seek
to do something to us is kindof foreign to us. And for whatever
(05:54):
reason, people have been overtaken bythis what I think is a false dichotomy
of you're either with Joe Biden oryou're with Donald Trump. You're either one
kind of crazy or another kind ofcrazy. You're either the far left or
the far right. They've bought intothat, and the truth is there's a
whole different way, but nobody's talkingabout it. And I worry that people
are being basically brainwashed into believing ifyou don't like Joe Biden, you have
(06:18):
to like Donald Trump. And that'sjust not the case. It's and it's
not that kind of a choice.And it's something I've talked about a lot.
I think you make a great pointthat we have My son and my
children are in this generation that hasonly known this kind of politics. You
know, they have only seen andwhen I can I remember when I ran
(06:40):
for Congress in two thousand and eight. That you know, one of the
things I would talk about all thetime was that I think people just say,
oh, politics, that's just theway it is. They're all corrupt
one way or another. They're allequally bad one way or another. But
we've reached and I would say,we've got to fight against that. We
can't accept that. But I thinkwe've reached a point where they're not all
bad add the same way, youknow, And it's hard for I'm most
(07:02):
former Republican. I don't know ifyou're still a registered Republican or not.
Yeah, I haven't voted Republican andI don't intend to, but I'm not
shedding the title yet. Yeah,well I did. And one of the
things that I've said is I won'tvote for any Republican who won't fully denounce
Donald Trump and trump Ism. Ifyou're not willing to acknowledge, and I
(07:27):
don't care if you say it's yourfault, it's not your fault anything else.
If you can't denounce it at thisstage in our development as as a
country, then I don't want toput my vote behind you, and I'll
join my son and so many others, and writing in somebody that I honor,
a somebody that I'll write in AdamPinsinger this year, you know,
something like that, or I'll votefor Biden. I'm open to voting for
(07:47):
Biden. So, like how,I do feel like that's part of the
I keep saying laziness, and Itruly don't want to offend people have them
when I say that, But Ithink people have lost sight of what democracy,
what it means to us personally,if democracy is truly lost, and
(08:07):
if they discount the idea that DonaldTrump is genuinely a threat to that democracy.
Yeah, and I think you knowwhat I try to remind you is,
let's flip the script here. Soif you consider yourself a Republican and
you're not offended by the idea ofDonald Trump, put Donald Trump's words in
Joe Biden's mouth, because I'm goingto tell you, if the Republicans continue
(08:28):
down this authoritarian path, there willbe a day, maybe soon, I
don't know where Democrats will win.And Democrats then will have every right to
react and hope they don't, butthey'll have every right to be just as
authoritarian, and all of a suddenyou've lost your ability to have that sense
of outrage. I got to tellyou something interesting too, which is something
that I think is uniquely happening amongmen, as particularly young men right now.
(08:50):
I don't know if this will affectyour son or not. So there
is this and we have to behonest about it. There's been this kind
of I don't know many reduction ofmasculine traits I don't not like, but
like denegrating it. That's the wordI'm looking at where tell you they're masculinity.
(09:11):
That's right. There is toxic masculinity, but masculinity is not toxic.
Exactly what you've seen in young menparticularly is they are feeling very isolated,
they are feeling very put down,and I think that's why you're seeing a
huge number of them, particularly turninto Donald Trump. Because if you're sitting
here feeling like you, you knowwho you are, naturally is something that
(09:35):
is looked down on by society orbad. All of a sudden, this
dude comes along who unfortunately shows masculinitythrough irreverence by being a complete ahole that
can be attractive to you, andunfortunately there's nothing on the other side saying
no, masculinity is Okay, it'sa good thing. Masculinity is also kind.
(09:56):
Masculinity fights for the for the defense. It's less. Masculinity is compassionate.
Instead, you only see this thingssidesaying masculinity is great and it's toxic.
And I worry that that's why we'relosing a huge generation of men,
not just white men, we're losingAfrican American mens. Like men, You're
seeing that education and gender is becomingone of the biggest and dividing forces in
(10:20):
today's politics. That is disturbing,especially since we're just about fifty to fifty
between men and women, and theimpact that that can have. And it's
interesting that it's because we've kind ofbeen addressing that and struggling with that for
decades. You know, men inthe family and you know men in the
(10:43):
workplace, and you know these differentand to see what a really extraordinary impact
that is now having on our politics, it's it's really concerning. It's really
concerning, and anybody can whether youlook at the polling or the you know,
the focus groups, things like that. I think what you said is
absolutely true. We see it,we see it. I don't through very
clearly. So I want to talkwhen you were talking just now about masculinity,
(11:09):
toxic masculinity versus masculinity. I wasjust through my head thinking, you
know, my kids have had anawesome example in my husband and their father
as to how to be a man. What you know, how how masculinity
is balanced with sensitivity and caring andbeing there and that sort of thing.
And it sort of led me rightaway, believe it or not, to
(11:33):
the to the GOP in general,that I believe that the GOP has lost
their sense of honor and ethics,and having been a former state chair,
I think of the GOP as avery broad I don't just mean Kevin McCarthy
or Mike Johnson or somebody like that. And you know, I look at
how Rona has conducted herself running theparty. I think about some of the
(11:58):
other state chairs that I know thatthat are in seats now, and I
find that to be very disturbing thatthe GOP has sort of publicly identified that
we don't care about honor and integrityand truth anymore. We care just about
I was gonna say, we justcare about winning, but they stayed with
Trump in spite of the fact thatthey're not winning. I have a hard
(12:20):
time wrapping my head around it anddefining it like what has had what has
happened to the party from the partyperspective? Yeah, I mean, look,
here's an interesting thing that I've neverunderstood is Ronna Romney McDaniel dropping the
name Romney Right, How you couldall of a sudden be embarrassed of your
family, Not because she's probably trulyembarrassed of mitt, but because she wants
(12:45):
to not have to deal with that. And I mean I couldn't imagine having
to shed the name Kinsinger because Iwant it power. I mean, it's
foreign to me. And the problemis is the people that it's foreign to
that don't understand it. Like youand I. We got out of politics
because it just it's no longer aplace for us. There's no longer a
welcome that for So here's I heardsomebody once talking about the importance of in
(13:09):
essence shame as a tool of society. And now shame is bad. We
don't want people to have shame.But let's think about it societally. Why
is it that you know, somebodywho's racist, for instance, doesn't go
on national TV and say, youknow, a racist word. Well,
because society would shame them and pushthem aside, and and you know,
(13:30):
and detegrade them, and that societyknow that, yes, yeah, and
that was exactly but that societal shameand being picked out of a tribe,
by the way, is a verypowerful weapon. And so all of a
sudden there was this death of shamewithin the GOP. Donald Trump really accelerated
it. You know, it's it'sthe question of did Donald Trump cause it
(13:52):
or was he a result? Ireally think he was a little of both.
He was a result, but healso accelerated this where he all of
a sudden showed people you don't haveto be worried if you get accused of
rape. You don't even have tobe worried if you rape somebody. All
you have to do is stand upand say you don't care, or you
know, openly lie or say thingslike Vladimir Putin, you know, you
trust him over the words of ourown intelligence agencies. And once Donald Trump
(14:18):
gave these leaders I'll call him leadersin quotations cover, they started to realize
they could do the same thing.And then it became to the point where
they realized they had to do thesame thing. You could no longer have
a sense of honor, because ifyou showed a sense of honor, you
would be going against Donald Trump.Look at Marco Rubio this weekend saying about
Donald You know, Marco Rubio,many of us had a great deal of
(14:39):
respect for saying that he doesn't believeor doesn't care what Donald Trump had to
say inviting Russia to attack NATO.Now he got happy to feel like a
piece of garbage for that, buthe knows he had to take that approach
to stay in the tribe, andbeing kicked out of the tribe is a
very, very compelling weapon to keeppeople on line. That's fascinating. I
(15:01):
think that's exactly right when you talkabout being kicked out of the tribe.
One of the things I thought abouta lot in the last you know,
eight years, is the party base, the voters who show up in primaries
and being shocked at the outcome ofa lot of those primaries and what they're
willing to embrace and the things they'llsay on TV on election Day and things
like that. And that's the tribe. Isn't just Congress and Trump. That's
(15:24):
the tribe. Those guys are thetribe as well. And you know,
we all sort of understand the ideaof being in a tribe, not a
tribe. And I often think aboutthe members of the r n C,
you know, the one sixty eightwho are the chairman, and the too
(15:45):
minimen committee women, and just howthat kind of spreads the idea of the
tribe, and how this horrible ideaof trump Ism just becoming okay, just
becoming accepted. And you said somethingYeah, when you said something else,
I said to go, I wantedto grab And now now I'm losing it
for a minute. Was it?Yeah, this is on my list of
(16:06):
questions. You said, is itbecause of Trump? Is it not because
of Trump? That's one of thethings I was going to ask you,
like, do I don't think youcan blame Trump when it's millions and millions
and millions of Americans who are sayingI kind of like what he's saying.
He sounds good to me. I'mgoing to vote for that. Yeah,
I mean I kind of see aos, like, you know, how do
you look at a cult? Right? On the one hand, you know,
let's stick to korrec, you know. David Koresh. David Koresh was
(16:30):
the leader of the call. DavidKoresh, you know, gave the fuel
to the fire that led to alot of what you saw there. But
there were people that had to bewilling to go along with it. Why
is it that, you know,my parents, for instance, I mean,
I guess they weren't exposed to it, but why didn't they go along
with the Koresh cult. Well becausethey had a different mindset, right,
(16:52):
So David and Koresh knew what thatfertile ground was found the people who were
susceptible to that need for community.Like if you look at what MAGA is,
you know, why again, whyis it that Donald Trump can stand
up and on the one hand saytake the vaccine. On another hand say
don't take the vaccine. No matterwhat he says, people cheer. He
makes fun of Nikki Haley's husband,you know, for being the yes being
(17:17):
in the military. Yeah, it'sincredible. What happens is you need that
community, that sense of safety.There are people that feel very isolated right
now. And MAGA isn't about politicsanymore. It's not about a worldview.
It's now about do you belong towhatever this organization is so that you can
feel a sense of safety. Itdoesn't matter how crazy it is, you
(17:40):
feel a sense of safety in there. And that's what you're seeing with all
these folks. It's just like youcome along, You're like, Okay,
now I'm in this club. Idon't care what I say, I don't
care what I do, but I'mfinding this certain safety. And so Donald
Trump comes along and he provides theleadership in that life kind of safety mechanism,
(18:02):
my guest, because he provides afuel. So it's a little of
both. There was that desire forit there and then Donald Trump knew how
to harvest it. So I thinkthat, yeah, there would be a
Donald Trump that would have come alongeventually, but I don't know the party
would be in this position without him. I agree with that, and I've
had the opportunity to speak with someof the folks who were in the Capitol
(18:22):
on January sixth. One of thesomebody who you know, did time and
had been convicted, And what Ifind that is common between many of them
is that they regret doing it.And when you listen to the ones who
regret it, when you listen tothem talk about what led them there,
it's exactly what you just said thatyou know that they were part of something
(18:44):
that they thought was going to bethis extraordinary movement that they thought was going
to make them special, part ofa group that I think that's a big
part of it, and the wholeeverything we know about cults and cult leaders.
I mean, Trump is he's righton the target there, folks you're
listening to Is it just me orwe all lost our mind on Jennifer Horn
(19:07):
And we're talking to former Congressman AdamKinsinger about how to preserve democracy in America
today. And I think what itcomes down to right now is being more
more conscious and more informed in theway that you're presenting it, Adam,
you know, thinking about it.I guess more thinking about it from that
kind of perspective. Let's talk alittle bit about what's happening today in politics
(19:32):
and how this perspective and everything mightimpact it. We've got Nikki Heally running
a very far second. If we'rebeing realistic about all the numbers to Donald
Trump, you know, in theGOP primary, the Democrats are going to
elect Joe Biden. So in theend, if you're looking for primary major
(19:53):
candidates, those are going to bethe two names on the ballot. But
let's speak apart what's happening in theGOP. I left the GOP, as
I said, but I still havea depth of concern about it. I
think our country needs an honorable conservativevoice in politics. Is she taking I've
been critical of Nikki Heally and theapproach that she took. I think she
(20:15):
missed the opportunity to really be competitivetwo or three months before the Newmansire primary.
But talk to me a little bitlike is she really competitive? And
what is there a good purpose thatshe serves by staying in the race and
continuing to, you know, bethe voice that she is, at least
as Trump goes through this process.Well, first of all, I agree
(20:37):
with you. I think that firstdebate in Milwaukee, when all of them
except Chris Christy and Asa Hodgson raisedtheir hand that they would support Donald Trump
no matter what come Hell or Eyewater, that is when Donald Trump got reelected.
That was the moment I agree andgoes, Look, you know,
if you're a Republican voter, DonaldTrump is your main influencer, but there's
(20:59):
still a second tier of people youpay attention to. And everybody on that
debate stage was a second tier influencer. And when they all say like,
oh, yeah, we think DonaldTrump is a victim of a witch hunt.
Like, you're going to then believethat Donald Trump is a victim of
a witch hunt. And if youbelieve that, right, are you going
to support for President Donald Trump?The victim? Right? They sold their
(21:22):
they showed their integrity, they soldanything they say after that, The answer
is yeah, but you're going tovote for Trump. Yeah. It's incredible
and so and I so with Nikki, I've been disappointed too. I mean,
look, I I would say probably, with the exception of Chris Christy,
of all the candidates that ran,she and I would probably be the
closest in terms of what we believe. She's a you know, a hawk
(21:44):
on foreign policy, which is thething that really drew me to the GOP
ironically from the beginning. And nowthey're you know, I think I'm probably
closer to Democrats on foreign policy.Isn't that, Ozar, Isn't that a
bizarre experience have in your head asa lifelong Republican. Yeah, especially,
but I see Democrats talking about defendingUkraine and I see Republicans. You know,
(22:04):
look, and we could talk aboutthat, but I saw this Republican
Party go into Putin years ago.But anyway, so I think Nikki Haley
plays an important role and I wantto see her stay in because if anything,
yeah, she's probably gonna get beatpretty handily, but there's still a
significant number of people that are goingto vote for her, and the longer
she can hold them away from DonaldTrump, the more it's get a ball.
(22:29):
Look, I think any Republican that'snot going to vote for Donald Trump
should vote for Joe Biden, eventhough I'm not gonna love doing it,
but I think we should because it'sreally a binary choice. That said,
we also need to give people permissionto just not vote or to vote third
party, because if it's coming,I have to vote lesser of two evils,
and I just can't pull the triggerfor you know, Joe Biden.
(22:51):
Yeah, then you can vote thirdparty. That's a way to kind of
say, that's probably frankly in twentysixteen, I've gave you a Trump vote
to the other the other candidate.That's right, really fortunately either right,
yeah, that's true, but it'sbetter than voting for Donald Trump. And
and so, but the real questionis, and I think sadly we all
know the answer is when Nicky Hayleydoes drop out, what does she do
(23:12):
If she found her courage to sayI cannot support Donald Trump. He is
a bad man, X, Yand Z, then I think that those
numbers that she has peeled off willactually make a difference in the election.
I'm not holding my breath that she'sgoing to do that, because everybody else
that has had to drop out hasdebased themselves. That Tim Scott, being
(23:36):
the worst of them, has basedthemselves. Yes for Donald Trump. Yeah,
it's seeing Tim Scott in New Hampshire, but standing behind him on that
stage. I just debased is theright word. And it's sickening in a
way. It just because again becauseI feel like there's so much at stake,
and Tim Scott's another one that I'vealways admired, that I used to
(23:56):
admire, you know, another oneup there. So with Nicky though,
you know, she was one ofthe loudest anti Trump voices out there in
twenty sixteen, and she was veryactive with you know, supporting Rubio's effort.
They were everywhere. They were inspirationalin their language for people like myself.
And then he became president, shebecame his ambassador to the UN,
(24:18):
so when people say, gee,I hope she'll stand up, you know,
my thought is always I think she'skind of already shown her willingness to
stand up now that he is whohe is. But I agree with you,
I would love to see that.And she doesn't even have to endorse
by the She can just say thathe's miserable and I won't be voting for
him, and it would it wouldhave a significant impact in certain demographics within
(24:41):
the GOP. So that would beawesome. Let's go back and talk about
something you just mentioned that's not onmy list, but it's important. We
had be called were quickly are theGOP is quickly becoming very isolationist as a
nation. And we used to understandwhy that was bad, why that was
a danger to you know, asas a democratic, as a democracy,
(25:02):
as a country, and this ideathat suddenly they are listening to Carlson who's
in Russia to interview Putin, andyou know, the whole we have to
have no money go to Ukraine likeI could. But you can go through
this whole list of the crazy thingsand been said. Marjorie Taylor Green is
suddenly the party's leader on foreign policy. Explain to me and to our listeners
(25:30):
again from the perspective of how thiscould damage or undermine democracy in our own
country, much less other democratic nationsaround the world when the US won't defend
Ukraine. Yeah, I mean Olemana'sfirst off say, I think part of
the thing going on here is,you know, there are some in the
Republican Party that have always been kindof the you know, there's always been
(25:53):
this like isolation wing a little bit, but it's been small, and so
there's some that legitimately believe this,you know, that we shouldn't be doing
anything in the world. I disagree, but at least I respect a legitimate
viewpoint. Now there are some thatliterally what the Republican Party has become is
the most extreme thing ever said.Is now what we want to take You
(26:17):
remember these experiences. I think youguys had Lincoln Day dinners in New Hampshire
as well. Yeah, you goto a Lincoln Day dinner and there's always
that table of weirdos there in thecorner, you know, the ones with
the weird buttons and the science andthey're whatever theories. Well then next year,
you know, when you go backto that Lincoln Day dinner, those
few people at that weird table thatwill now be what everybody believes in the
(26:38):
room as a baseline, and thenthere will be another weird table with new
weird stuff. That's what started happeningwith Russia, and it all became about
somehow Ukraine got tied with being democratsand Russia got tied with being republicans.
By the way, Russia can continueto prosecute Christians in Russia. If you
go there as a missionary, you'llbe arrest If you have a Bible in
(27:00):
Russia, you'll be arrested. Yetsomehow they think he's this fighter for that.
But the war is I think thisis the most important fight of frankly
anything in our generation, even probablynine to eleven, is the ability for
Ukraine to defend itself because look,if you look at here, we're tearing
(27:21):
ourselves apart as a country. InUkraine, you take people that were in
different political parties. The old sayingwas you'd put two people in a room
and they'd create three political parties inUkraine, so it was a very divided
country. But you'll take a welder, a musician, a businessman, and
now they are all in the trenches, fighting to defend their country to the
death, literally to the death,you know, because Vladimir Putin has said
(27:44):
it. Eventually, you just haveto take him at his word that once
he marches over Ukraine, he isgoing to test NATO, He's going to
test Estonia eleven via Lithuania. Whathappens when all the other democracies in the
world realized that nothing can stand againsthim, because in the United States has
backed the way, they will suefor peace with Russia. Russia will continue
to march in Europe. Russia willbegin to write the rules now of trade
(28:10):
and commerce. Russia will start tocreate the world's reserve currency with China,
which they're already trying to do.And if you think our economy is struggling
now, by the way, waituntil we lose the world's reserve currency status
and we can't write the rules oftrade and right, and wait until we
have to actually go to war todefend our borders or anything to try to
(28:32):
convince anybody to fight with us,when all we've done is abandon everybody that's
ever fought with us. This isa no brainer, and quite honestly,
what we're spinning in Ukraine is tenpercent of our defense budget, of which
thirty to forty percent of our defensebudget is propped up to defend against Russia.
And now we've got a bargain dealwhere we can beat them for about
(28:52):
a fraction of what we spin deposture against them every year. It is
it is nonsense that we would beopposed to this, But this is what
happens on a time where everybody justwants to quote unquote own the Libs.
They want to own the Libs,and they don't want They have this sense
of nobody, nobody. You know, we don't need that, We don't
(29:15):
need anybody out there. We don'tneed this is ridiculous, We're I was
actually in Ukraine shortly after the OrangeRevolution as part of an organization that worked
with bringing care to young people whowere affected by Chernobyl and I had a
chance to I forget it. Idon't think they call it the Presidential Square.
I can't remember exactly, but thespace where the light on, yes,
(29:40):
yes, I think so, Ithink so. But where they all
had gathered, and the young ladyI was with was maybe twenty one,
twenty two, and she had beenthere like it was the whole thing was
powered by young people for the mostpart, and I was so impressed with
her ability to articulate why this happened, what they were looking for, and
and really talk about independence and democracyin a way that nobody in the Republican
(30:06):
Party, no leader in the partytoday can articulate. And and you know,
so, I really I have asense that it's young people who are
going to get us back on trackhere in our country. But at the
same time, I worry about thefact that they had never had that experience,
They'd never had to confront what youngpeople in Ukraine had to confront growing
(30:26):
up, and what they thought theywere fighting back against. And I guess
I keep circling back while I'm talkingto you about this whole idea of you
know, preserving it and how dowe save it for I used to talk
about my children, Now I talkabout my grandchildren. So I know that
you have I could talk to youforever, and I'm trying not to do
that. I know that you haveto hit the road in a minute,
So let me ask you kind ofas a wrap up, then, like
(30:48):
what do we do? I amnot the chairman of a super pack.
I do not sing. I nolonger have any desire to sit in Congress.
You know, I'm trying to usemy voice in the way that I
know how to. But what dowe do as a mottlement? How do
we really inspire and light of fireunder the people? The number of people?
(31:11):
We need to really have a movementthat will draw us back from the
edge, because I think I thinkwe're facing you know, we're facing a
press of this year. Yeah,I think we are too. I'll give
you the broader and then the individualanswer. So the broader answer is this
is this is a year where wehave got to put aside our petty differences.
(31:32):
I can't tell you, Jennifer andyou have the same experience. How
many people I'll see you and it'sjust Twitter. But you know Twitter has
some reflection of reality where it'll belike, oh, you say all this,
but you voted for Trump's policies onceyour pro life or your whatever,
and it's like, look, okay, if you are concerned about democracy and
then you are going to nitpick thatsomebody has a different view to from you,
(31:56):
I would argue that you don't evenunderstand what democracy is if you don't
think somebody's allowed to have a differentview than you, right, Because exactly
what democracy is is taking people withdifferent views, learning to put those views
into argument and come out with somethingthat's probably better than what you ever believed.
Right. So what we need isan uncomfortable alliance between the left the
(32:21):
same right in the center. Andif we want to sit around and argue
about our differences on tax policies,we can do that after we win this
fight, because hopefully after we winthis fight, we have the luxury to
disagree with each other again, becauseotherwise we're going to be yearning for the
day when we could talk about oneof us being pro life the other being
pro choice, and how we getthrough that, because we'd be dealing with
(32:43):
the inability to not have an opinion. So, in the broader sense,
I'd say to this, like,find common cause with people that think differently
than you if they believe in democracy, because trust me, life is boring
if everybody thinks like you. Ialways joke about this money. Why do
we make friends based on who hasa certain political belief that, to me
(33:05):
is the most acidine thing I wantto make a friend on. I want
a friend who I like to drinkbeer with and hang out, not who
has a Masonian government that happens tobe the same as mine. On the
individual level, the thing I'm concernedabout more than anything over the next ten
months the magas the forces of chaosfeed on chaos. So when we wake
(33:29):
up and we read the news andit's like Donald Trump did some insane thing,
we get exhausted reading it. Ido, right, because I'm sitting
here, like, what can wesay and nobody's gonna listen and whatever,
and we have a tendency to withdrawand retreat. The forces of chaos get
energized by that. So what Iwould say to everybody is, individually,
(33:52):
take that burden you're carrying on yourshoulders right now to save the world and
just drop it. Right. It'snot on you to save the world.
It's not on me, it's noton you, it's not on anybody.
It's on us collectively. But noneof us can do it alone. And
if you carry this burden that saysI have to be the one and I'm
(34:14):
not tweeting enough and I can't dothis enough, you will sometime in the
next nine months give up. Youwill say I've had enough. And the
biggest danger is not that you didn'ttweet enough this year. The biggest danger
is that you get discouraged and giveup. So everybody has got a man
their foxhole, right. You know, we're in the middle of a battle.
(34:35):
The most heroic thing you can dois not let anybody past your foxhole.
It's not to charge the hill,it's to not let anybody pass.
That's the best thing we can doright now is hold fast and work together
as this kind of organism that somehowis gonna function, and that's how we
win. Take the burden of theworld off your shoulders and don't give up
(34:57):
the fight. I love that.I love that so much. The and
then I do think there are somany people out there who feel that,
who feel that, And I've alwayssaid, you know, Twitter is not
real life. It is a reflectionof certain things. But you know,
you don't need to individually destroy everyhuman being on Twitter who expresses a thought
different than yours. That's not goingto move us forward at all. Thank
(35:22):
you so much, Thanks so muchfor being here, folks. We've been
talking to former Congressman Adam Kinzinger.Find his book The Renegade. It was
a New York Times bestseller as soonas it came out. It is worth
to read. And then to remindme also, Kindresman, you have an
organization that you're part of now thatyou had done some great work with already
(35:43):
that I'm sure you're going to continuewith. Yeah, we've got Country Forsa's
Country the number one st dot comand uh, it's part of this,
you know, broader umbrella of thepro democracy movement. We've got academies for
new candidates. We're working on takingout pretty crazy candidates as well. That's
the one thing we want to dois defeat MAGA and uh. And then
I have a sub stack and it'sjust Adam Kinsinger. I'm just writing some
(36:06):
of my thoughts and getting it outof my system there as well. So
thank you. It's good. Itwas good to be with you. It
was great having you with us,Adam Kinsinger. Everybody check it out.
I sir, have a wonderful day. We appreciate your time. You too. Take care
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