March 27, 2025 • 48 mins
Seems as though cruelty and meanness have become greatly valued currency in how people are treated (and maybe how you're treating people). Are we living in meaner times? Is our only path retaliating or just taking it? Liana tackles these questions and more with Jennifer Keluskar, Ph.D. a professor of Biobehavioral Health at Pennsylvania State University.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The views expressed in the following program are those of
the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of
SAGA nine sixty AM or its management.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
The following program is a peer to peer advice show
and does not diagnose mental health conditions.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
If you're seeking social.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Services, please call or text two to one one or
go to two one one dot CA. Hello listeners around
the world on radio, streaming and podcast services.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
This is is not therapy.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm Leanna Kerzner, and I am not a therapist, but
I am your source for navigating the madness of mental
health using my top ten sayings.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
For going good crazy.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
This week, I'm trying a slightly different audio configuration, so
bear with me if something sounds off. But we're also
going to talk about what I have named the cruelty economy.
I googled this term and nothing came up. So I'm
gonna say it's new and I'm coining the term, and
let me tell you what I mean by it.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Now.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
My guest this week is going to talk to us
about how to deal with meanness, rudeness, and other kind
of cruelty. Jennifer Keliscar, PhD, clinical psychologist and an assistant
teaching professor of biobehavioral health at Pennsylvania State University.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
She'll be on later to.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Help unpack this and find out alternatives to what I
call driving up inflation. In this cruelty economy, very few
people just decide I'm going to be mean right out
of the blue right. They're usually fighting back against some
sort of perceived injustice, and they think that fighting back
(01:37):
mean with more mean is the way to do that.
This makes cruelty, in my mind, a sort of currency,
and that currency gets traded around. We fixate on debits
and credits regarding cruelty, focusing on that fighting back instead
of moving forward. We're locked in a market where cruelty
(02:00):
is traded instead of opting out of this entire terrible system.
But with every false assumption that the cruelty, the hurt
feelings they were deliberate, a fresh cruelty credit is created.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
We're living in an age.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Of cruelty inflation where so many people assume that the
hurt they're experiencing was intentionally done to them, that the
rate of cruelty creation has reached an exponential rate. It's
very very unhappy math. This is why I say, listen
twice before you talk once. I listen to people for
(02:36):
a living, and something I've noticed, and now I'm hyper
aware of it is that people tend to assume ill
intent in others, but then they're confused why they themselves
didn't get benefit of the doubt that they didn't mean
to hurt somebody's feelings. If you think of assumptions of
ill intent as pain bills, well then you're gonna have
(02:59):
to pay them sometimes. Right, when you're retaliating against a
perceived cruelty with cruelty of your own, you are being cruel.
Your reasons don't change the fact that you were cruel. Now,
imagine if the person didn't actually send that pain bill
(03:21):
you were paying, Right, they're going to be very confused
as to why they're receiving a cruelty payment, aren't they,
And they're gonna want to return that cruelty because, well,
the rules you put out there are rules you have
to accept, and they don't feel like they deserve that
pain bill.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Oh but that's deliberate too.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, it doesn't matter who's paying the pain bill, you're
doing it intentionally. And so a fresh round of cruelty
economics ensues. And now We're in an all out trade
roar with increasing cruelty tariffs flying back and forth, and
the whole trade war thing was kind of got me
thinking about this because I know I'm going to need
(04:03):
a new laptop soon, and it's really annoying me because
I can't afford one immediately. I have other expenses, and
so it's frustrating that I'm probably gonna get hit with
a twenty five percent surcharge because of retaliatory tariffs.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Now, I completely.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Understand that this is politics, not sound economic policy. The
average voter would rather pay more for some things than
do absolutely nothing, even though tariffs punish the importer in
the short term as opposed to the you know, the exporter.
Tariffing computers I think is an especially terrible idea. Now
(04:41):
with Microsoft forcing everyone to upgrade to Windows eleven by
this coming October, if your computer is more than a few,
you know, a few years old, it might not run
Windows eleven. So you're going to be in the same
boat as me with having to pay more for a computer.
That's the price is gonna go down, likely when Trump
(05:02):
leaves office. But we have to fight back, right, we
have to pay that pain.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Bill I get it.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Oh, last week I had more than my fair share
of people being awful to me when I was really
at low abb I had to take a personal week,
and I just wanted to smash something. I originally took
the offal in the chin and just back down, deciding
to be the bigger person. So one of these jerks
(05:31):
decided to fight with my friends instead and then blame
me for the argument after I left it, accusing me
of dun dun da being part of a clique. The
thing that struck me was it start to finish. It
was a pointless argument, at least to me. It literally
started over the definition of a rite of passage.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Wonky stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Right, The original guy who got big mad treated someone
correcting him on objective fact acts into you know, treated
that as my friend bullying him, because apparently, in twenty
twenty five, if you don't agree with the equivalent of
two plus two equals five, you're a bully. See now,
(06:16):
some of you are chomping at the bit to fight
out who said what so you can judge who was
right and who was wrong. And that's a big part
of the problem, because, like I said, none of it
was terribly important, but fine, Okay, this is what happened.
The guy was insisting that men needing to make money
so that women will date them was a right of passage.
(06:37):
And no, no, there is nothing in that ongoing activity
that marks a transition from one stage of life to
the next. A bar mitzvah is a right of passage.
A wedding is a right of passage. A funeral is
a right of passage. The hustle is not a right
of passage. And this is the point where some people
will try to pick up that argument, and it says
(06:57):
bra had a point, though, and this is the cruelty
economy in action. You are hijacking a present conversation because
of pain you felt in the past, and you got
a pain bill to pay. So you're gonna go, oh,
you got a point. Yeah, But the point, the problem point,
was accusing somebody of bullying them because they corrected them, right,
(07:24):
And that's the thing. This guy was probably paying a
pain bill as well. Yeah, girls were mean to him
in high school.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
That sucks.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
But the person you're talking to in the present didn't
send you that pain bill. So where they're coming from,
you know, you paying them back the pain bill. You're
making this entire thing about you and to people in
the present. That's just obnoxious. Feelings are not facts, and
(07:52):
external validation is nice, but you can't demand it. The
minute you demand validation.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
It's worthless.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
In the crueltyomy, if you're walking around deep in a
pain debt, you're gonna have a hair trigger when it
comes to paying back those pain bills. Trust me, I
feel you. I spent all last week feeling stomped on
and exhausted. But in our society we put a very
high value on paying those pain bills right, and a
(08:19):
very low value on reducing cruelty inflation. So we've got
an overheated cruelty economy where the pain bills are increasing,
but our payments are fighting back, standing up for ourselves,
not taking it anymore. Well, they seem to be worth
less and less, don't they, Because inflation we need to
fight more and more and the payment on the pain
(08:42):
bills goes less and less. Far as long as cruelty
inflation keeps going up, that's not gonna get any better.
We need to apply qualitative tightening to the cruelty economy,
which means taking some cruelty out of the market. This
means not responding to every pain bill with the currency
(09:04):
of cruelty. And I have an expert who will help
us do that. Jennifer Kelluscar, PhD is a clinical psychologist
and an Assistant teaching Professor of Biobehavioral Health at Pennsylvania
State University, and she'll talk to us about better ways.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
To deal with mean and rude people.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
After the break. Do you have a story or topic
you think would be good for the show? Are you
interested in sponsoring this show? Leanna Atntherapyshow dot com. Not
Therapyshow dot com is the website at not Therapy Show
on socials.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
When we come back, how.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
To qualitatively tighten this cruelty Economy on It's Not.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Therapy, No Radio, No Problem stream is live on SAGA
ninety six am dot C.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
The following program is a peer to peer advice show
and does not diagnose mental health conditions. If you're seeking
social services, please call or text two one one or
go to two.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
We're back at It's Not Therapy.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
I'm still Leanna Kersner, I am still not a therapist,
and we are still talking about the cruelty economy. And
as promised, I have a guest that is gonna help
us navigate alternatives to inflation in the cruelty economy. I
have Jennifer Kaluscar, clinical psychologist and Assistant teaching Professor of
Biobehavioral Health at Pennsylvania State University. Jennifer, welcome. Thank you
(10:34):
for being kind enough to come on.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
It's not therapy.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
to be here now.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
We reached out to you because you did an article
on you're in the emotional regulation category of psychology today
and it was the best way to deal with meanness
and rudeness, and you told a story yourself about I'm like,
oh no, I was afraid for you because you're biking
in the snow into a canoe. That is like, that
(11:01):
is so perilous, right, And you did what people did.
A lot the roads too slushy, so you go on
the sidewalk's right, and you had the the reaction that
a lot of cyclists I think are familiar with here,
especially in downtown Toronto, of use the bike lane.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
This woman, it was a woman that just started yelling
at you yes, yeah, and you had the all too
familiar response of.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Being really shaken by that.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, And that's where I want to start, because I
think everybody can relate to that somebody just getting aggressive.
It has a biological response. It does something to our physiology,
and I think understanding why dealing with meanness and rudeness
is so difficult starts there. So what happens to our
(11:53):
bodies when somebody just comes at us like that?
Speaker 5 (11:58):
It activates are autonomic nervous system, which is basically this
part of the nervous system that is, it regulates involuntary functions,
and specifically, it activates the part of this nervous system,
of the autonomic nervous system that essentially brings about the
(12:19):
fight or flight response.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
It's a very primitive response.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
We really have little control over it happening. It's more
so how we respond to it. That's we have relatively
more control over.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, and that you know, panic response that freeze fight
for on or flight response.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
It leads to bad decisions, right.
Speaker 6 (12:44):
Yes, And sometimes I guess, you know, like sometimes it
could allow us to get away from a threat more quickly.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
But the thing is, our bodies respond to threats that
are actually threatening our lives and threats that are not
so life threatening but psychologically threatening really in the same way.
And it's the latter where we kind of get ourselves
into trouble sometimes.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah, because threats to our sense of belonging, our sense
of place in the social order are very threatening. Our
brands can't tell the difference between you know, old school, Oh,
I'm going to get eaten by a saber tooth tiger
or I'm going to get hit by a car and
I'm going to be ostracized. I've done something wrong. My
place in society is now being jeopardized, and people are
(13:35):
in a constantly heightened state that way, It seems that
the fear of being knocked out of the social order
is one of the most profound sources of anxiety that
people are dealing with.
Speaker 7 (13:49):
Now.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Have you found that in your work as well?
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Absolutely, And I'll just add that this is a fear
that is very much part of being human. We're all species.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
But I would say that the individuals I work with
who largely present with issues like anxiety disorders, it's like
even more heightened for them, and that could make daily
life stuff that happens seem less tolerable. Really.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, if every kind of negative social exchange goes from
that person's mad at me, They're going to contact my employer.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
The employer is going to think I did something wrong.
I'm gonna get fired.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Like, there's no way to walk that off when that's
the way your brain is going.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Sure, it's tough, Yeah, And I.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Find a lot of young people coming out of the
educational system with that. We call it catastrophizing, but that's
what they're told is gonna happen, right, Like, if you
don't study hard in grade nine, they're gonna look at
your grades for college and you're not gonna get into
a good school, so you're not gonna get a good job.
So you're gonna be and he listen, homeless when your
(15:01):
parents are gone, Like we do this to people.
Speaker 8 (15:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
One of my favorite research studies as of late is
a meta analysis by the perfectionism expert Thomas Curran that
basically shows that at least amongst college aged individuals, there
has been an increase in perfectionism since I believe the
nineteen eighties, And I often think about how that's really
(15:26):
related to a lot of this increase in mental health
issues and anxiety. You know, it fuels this binary thinking.
I'm either a success or I'm a failure. And if
I'm a failure, if I fail at something, I'm a
failure as a person.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, and meanness can really pick that scap all right,
when when someone is going you are a failure as
a person because you drove on the sidewalk for one intersection, Right,
That really gets to that insecurity, it's taking something that's
a seed that's already been planted and just like bombarding
(16:06):
it with radiation, so it turns into the guy from
Little Shop of Horse.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
It's amazing how unnecessary aggression, unnecessary cruelty can.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Really rattle us.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Yes, and this goes into the next part of your
article where the first thing we tend to do is
ruminate on it, right, Like just go over and over
and over it.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Yes, right, what does that do to us?
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Well, it doesn't help, that's for sure. That's for sure.
It's kind of our.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
Way of trying to problem solve or to basically make
everything okay. You know, if I if I just think
about this again and again, I'll try to find some rationale,
some reasoning for why this happened, or justification for how
(17:02):
I acted, or even if that conclusion is that well,
the world is just a terrible place, that's why this
all happened, or such a cold, rejecting place. So it
certainly is not a healthy way of coping, but it's
more like what we call.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
A maladaptive way of coping. We're trying to deal with.
Speaker 5 (17:24):
This situation, but unfortunately it is we're just digging ourselves
into a deeper and deeper rut.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
And it's understandable, right, people, this was painful, this was scary.
I don't want it to happen again. And people get
hung up on this idea that I can control it.
You know, there are people that are still dealing with
cruelties that they experienced in high school, sometimes elementary school,
and they're trying to function as adults and it is
(17:53):
just you know, piling up and up and up and up,
because it all becomes this continuum, right, everything gets flattened.
And I mean when when you hit that, it's a
full blown trauma. We're not just talking about, oh, somebody.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Was mean to you anymore.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Now, we're actually talking about time and space not functioning
psychologically the way it needs to for us to heal
and get distance. So what is a better way not
to because I don't want to jump ahead, because getting
over it is one thing, but putting its proper place
(18:29):
in the first place, I think is something a lot
of people skip. And you deal with this in your article.
You deal with this in another article that you wrote
that I also found fascinating about a justice response, a
high justice sensitivity, you called it. And I think that
(18:51):
people who have a narrative of being you know, you
talked about victimization in this, but have a narrative in
their lives of being this helpless victim of cruelty, they
have a high justice sensitivity. So let's explore that concept
because I think it's really helpful.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Yeah, yeah, so, I mean justice sensitivity.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
If you look at the literature, they are all these
different kinds of justice sensitivity, and it's just one of
those things that can be used for such good. Like
activists have a high justice sensitivity. And when we talk
about a particular kind of justice sensitivity called victim sensitivity, we're.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
Thinking about other people.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
Who are victims and we're trying to advocate for them.
So it can really be a beautiful thing, and even
beautiful for ourselves because sometimes, you know, we really are.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
The victims and we need to advocate for ourselves.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
However, it can also lead to digging ourselves into this
whole of being helpless and everyone else being the problem,
and that's when it becomes unhealthy for the person and
not very good for social relationships.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, that's I've seen that a lot in you know,
younger adults, where activism is the new rock and roll
right now, right, and they have this you know, inaccurate assumption, right,
like a fundamental attribution error, that everyone else is totally
in control and they know exactly what they're doing and
(20:30):
they've got it all figured out, and they are the
lone person that is just helplessly flailing against the world.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
And that's not true.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
The vast majority of us are just muddling through each day. Yeah,
And I do find that this idea of justice and
this idea of you know, they're being entire classes of
people who simply by existing are unjust. It's getting generations stuck.
(21:03):
And I don't want to politicize this too much. I
want to keep it in the realm of psychology. But
that idea right of oh, you drove on the bike
lane just to be a jerk, instead of it's because
the road was unsafe.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
That's part of this continuum.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Right, yes, yeah, And I'm I'm careful because I make
the smash patriarchy jokes. But at the same time, we
really have to be careful that we're not engaging with
the entire world through victimhood because that is that justice sensitivity. Right,
If you're constantly it's not fair, it's not fair, it's
(21:44):
not fair. You're never going to engage at an emotional
age of more than about six years old when that
idea starts forming, right right now.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
What are the pitfalls of this?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Because you're the expert when you're coming at these things
from the position of that person who yelled at you
for driving on the sidewalk, which I like this example
because it big deal. No one got hurt, right, it's
a guideline, but in inclement weather, it's like, you don't
listen to speed limits in inclement weather, you drive at
(22:16):
the speed it's safe, right, right, So same thing, You
were doing what you perceived to be safe. But this
person who clearly was kind of at the end of
the rope, somehow decided a good.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Idea was to yell at you for that.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
What do you think was going on with that other
person in that moment that we can relate to and
sort of not be that guy.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Oh I see, yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
I mean, if I may give the most honest answer,
I have no clue.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
I have no clue.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
And that's I think an important part of all of this.
One of my clinical supervisors years ago said something that
I'm sure many parents and mentors have said to other people,
and it's that you never really know what another.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Person is going through or has gone through.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
So maybe she was just having a bad day, right,
And as I was trying to cope with this situation,
there was this rational voice that was whispering this in
my mind, like maybe she was just having a bad day.
Maybe she's not feeling well, like something is off in
(23:30):
her body. It's making her emotions really hard to control.
And while that rational voice.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Was going on in my mind, that.
Speaker 5 (23:39):
Autonomic nervous system was still getting me activated, and I
still felt like a wreck.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
You know that that's.
Speaker 5 (23:49):
The what DBT clinicians would call the emotional mind versus
the rational mind. So all the rational good sense in
the world, but you're still going to feel awful because
of that emotional piece that It took me a while
to attend to and I can go on about.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
That a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, I think that's really important. It's a great way
to tease a break. So a hold on a second,
We're going to take a break. We're gonna come back
with Jennifer Koalascar, the PhD, Assistant Teaching Professor of behavior
bio Behavioral Health at Pennsylvania State University. I completely butchered that,
but we'll be back more with Jennifer after this on
(24:34):
It's Not Therapy.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Pastream us live at SAGA nine six am dot CA.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
The following program is a peer to peer advice show
and does not diagnose mental health conditions. If you're seeking
social services, please call or text two to one one
or go to two one one dot CA.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
We're back in It's not therapy.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I'm still lean occurs and I'm still not a therapist.
We are still talking to Jennifer Kloskar, PhD, Clinical psychologists
and Assistant teaching Professor of Biobehavioral Health at penn State University,
and we're talking about mean people and the effect it
has on us, and how we can stop adding to
what I call the cruelty economy. There's too much inflation
(25:24):
in the cruelty economy right now. And before the break, Jennifer,
we were talking about that emotional mind versus the rational
mind and how kind of asking questions, kind of perspective
taking can make them work better together.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I've found a DBT Dialectical behavior therapy very very very
useful for this of Okay, I am being emotional and
that's okay. One that was a huge sketch step. I
was skipping telling myself it's okay to have emotions right, right,
And I think that's a big thing when we start
(26:03):
trying to parse it from a fact based way, right, like, oh,
it was unsafe, I was driving on the sidewalk on
my bike because there was snow on the ground.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
It's okay to be rattled.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
We skip that step, right, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
And my first step really one of my first steps,
you know, because I was biking to work at the time,
so I couldn't do much other than.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
Ruminates as I was biking to work. And then I
get to my office and.
Speaker 5 (26:31):
I start calling relatives, talking to friends, and you know,
the responses were very well intentioned and out of love
and concern, but we're unintentionally invalidating at times so things like, oh, well,
technically you were breaking the rule, right really supposed to
(26:56):
you know, you're not supposed to bike on the sidewalk,
or let it roll off your back, don't let it
ruin your day.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
That's one that I'll often hear.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
And these are said with such great intention because people
are caring, but unintentionally they're invalidating the emotional stuff that's
going on at the time, because, like I said, I
already knew all the rational stuff.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
It was, you know, it was that whisper of running
through my.
Speaker 8 (27:23):
Mind, but I really needed to validate myself in the
moment and to seek valid if I'm seeking validation from others,
to seek validation in a.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Very pointed, direct, specific way, because yeah, that's how people
are going to react. They don't know how to help
or you.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
Know, they're seeing things from their perspective.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
They haven't lived in your shoes and gone through that
same exact scenario, and so it's really impossible for them
to really one hundred percent understand.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yeah, I find that don't let it get to you thinking. It's,
like you said, intended to be helpful, but it's so
unhelpful because if somebody is coming to you about something
that bothered them. It's already gotten to them, right, it's
already ruined your day. You might be able to salvage
the rest of the day, but this part of the
day officially ruined.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
Well you should say that because I'm an anxious person.
So somebody says, don't let it ruin your day, I'm like,
oh crap, now I'm gonna let it ruin my day.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Now I am not only upset, I have committed some
moral failing by letting this happen, right.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
Yeah, yes, yeah, it's going to continue to be a
screw up for.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
The rest of.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
It's the exact opposite that we know what works in
terms of emotional regulation, and yet these things are everywhere
in culture.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Yes, right.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
And I mean what I've taken to saying to people
is it's okay to be rattled by that. When I'm
in those situations, all of a sudden's yelling, someone's yelling
at you. It's like, especially when you're doing something like
riding a bike, where you have to constantly be scanning
for something that's going to indicate somebody's going to run
into you.
Speaker 9 (29:11):
Yes, yeah, so yeah, it's it's a challenge because it
is human to reach out in those moments, but often
it ends.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Up we feel worse instead of better.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yes, right, and that compounds the feeling of unfairness, and
that actually makes that mean exchange dig in even deeper.
And then then the do something brain kicks in and
we start doing really inadvisable things, right, right, So what
(29:45):
is an alternative? I mean, you did say seeking validation
in very specific ways, and I'd love to unpack that
because I think what you're saying is having the presence
of mind, which is difficult when you're anxious, but having
the presence of mind to go. I don't need to
hear I was driving on the sidewalk and that's technically illegal.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
I know.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I just need somebody to talk to about I'm freaked
out about getting yelled at.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Yeah, like being very specific and very intentional about what
you're looking for from the other person.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
Yes, And that is okay to do, you know, I
think people are reluctant to do it. I've been reluctant
to ask for validation or just to be given reassurance
that I am a good person.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
You know that I do try to follow the rules.
I do try to be respectful.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
You know, asking for that specifically is sometimes challenging because
you're thinking the other person, the other person really should
know that, or it'll feels so much more authentic if
I don't have to tell them. This is part of
just being a compassionate human being to yourself and others.
Really both is to ask very specifically for what you need.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
And the fact that you felt bad about that.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
This is what I think is cool when you start
understanding the rule of negative emotions, right, the fact that
you were even going, I'm a good person, I don't
like to break rules. Well, you're validating the fact that
you care about rules because that bothers you.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yes, right, and little things like that.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Feeling bad about something processed in a useful way can
actually be validating in its own right, right, reassuring ourselves
because when somebody is adamant that you did it on
purpose and you're just this horrible monster that did things
with absolute awareness of surroundings, right, it can make us
(31:43):
question whether we did mean to do it.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Yes, yeah, restely that self doubt factor, and I think
that's an important piece to look at because maybe there
are other people who would have yes, been rattled but
would have much more quickly than I did. I mean,
it really dampened my entire morning, right, So I need
(32:07):
to look at what are some things about me and
how I'm processing this that is contributing to you know, again,
that initial.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Rattling is very you know.
Speaker 5 (32:17):
Very universal part of how our nervous system functions. But
how can I take more control over how I'm processing
it throughout the day.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
And that's where I think being gentle with ourselves is
another thing I got from DBT is really helpful, right
because you were already riding your bike in unsafe conditions, right,
meaning you were sort of pre rattled.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Yeah, right, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
Making decisions and not being sure that I was making
the right one, you know, at every quarter.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Really yeah, And if you're a if you're a rule
abiding person who decides to break a rule for your
own safety, you're already feeling intensely vulnerable, and so somebody
punishing you for going against your nature for safety, that's like,
that's not one thing, that's three things all compounding on
(33:12):
your nervous system.
Speaker 5 (33:13):
Absolutely, And I'll tell you that one thing I did
right after that happened as I was biking to work
is I did try biking on the bike path with
the snow and ice. Well, that's something we call over correcting.
I had to follow the rule because I had just
been yelled at and follow. I had to follow the.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Rule against my own judgment.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
I had to go against what my intuition and better
sense of judgment was telling me to do.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
And it was such a bad decision. Let me tell you.
Speaker 8 (33:44):
I was.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
I had to get off my bike and walk it
for part of the commute.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, which is ultimately what you decided you were going
to do according to the article going forward is if
it's unsafe, I'm going to get off my bike, I'm
going to walk. You're allowed to be an honorary Canadian here, Jennifer,
and like take an Uber.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
When its nos you know, I know you're adding to a.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Carbon footprint, but you know the Uber driver could be
driving a priest, so you're okay. But yeah, those are
the sort of things. It just shows how complicated our
decision making is. Yeah. Yeah, And I do think that
we spend so much of our lives on this tightrope,
you know, balancing a sword on our nose. Instead in
(34:29):
terms of moral decision making and That's why that concept
of justice I think really ties in to the concept
of cruelty, because if we it's one thing to hope
something's fair, it's another thing to expect things to be fair.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Right, And you had a professor just go life's not fair.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, and this was really fundamental for you. Yes, Now,
how did you process that? Because this was a really
difficult thing for me to learn how to handle. And everybody,
i think tells a story about unfairness in their own way.
So how do you process unfairness so you can process
(35:12):
people being mean never knowing why they did it.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Yeah, well that's a great question, and I'll be honest,
I am still working on that, Like, this is not
something that I have figured out completely, because I still
have my moments where it's really hard even watching the
news and seeing, without getting too political, seeing how some
people are treating other people. It's almost like it's triggering
(35:40):
to me because it's reminding me of the past and
things that have happened where it's just like wow.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
One, it's one.
Speaker 5 (35:46):
Thing for people to be mean because they didn't get
enough sleep the night before, they're feeling, you know, they're
having a bad day.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
But another thing for them to be completely unaware of
how of how mean they are.
Speaker 5 (36:01):
But you know what, it's not my job to change that,
you know, I can't change that, and it's not my responsibility.
And I think people with high justice sensitivity they take
they tend to take on way more responsibilities than the
highest governing official whatever have on their job duties list right,
(36:23):
And if you see it more so as lessening, allowing
yourself to lessen the burden that you're carrying instead of
having to make things right, you know, because another thing
is we get very stuck in right or wrong.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
The world is more fluid than that.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
I mean, there are, of course, there are examples of
gross atrocities and of course are clearly clearly wrong. But
when you talk to people as I've talked to people
on different sides of the political spectrum.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Right, and.
Speaker 5 (36:58):
It's amazing how everybody has their reasons and see the
different way and so from seeing the world and the
way they're seeing it. Even if I totally don't see
the world and the way they see it, everything that
they're thinking does seem right.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Often are often our error in reasoning happens right at
the beginning with our fundamental assumptions about a given problem.
And I do think that you gave some really great
advice in your article about mean and rude people.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
You said, don't expect to feel understood.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yeah, and this is a huge thing because we really
value self expression. Yes, right, We've been told people should
always validate your feelings, and we've had some scope creep
on feelings where people go, I feel and then offer
an opinion because feelings are always valid, right, But how
(37:55):
do you get I know how I do it.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
I tend to go so you know, control what you
can control.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
And I'm going to say this to be sure the
other person has all the information.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
I don't expect them to accept it.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
I'm just gonna say it because that means I know,
and I'm not making an assumption that they know something
they don't. That helps me with the rejection if somebody
doesn't get it. But it still sucks when somebody doesn't
understand you, Right, So what's your advice for that?
Speaker 5 (38:29):
You know?
Speaker 2 (38:29):
And I think it's a great caveat saying I'm still
working on it. This is the foundation of peer counseling, right,
that we don't have all the answers. We're just further
ahead than the people we're working with, but we are
still working on it. What's your process for dealing with
not being understood?
Speaker 4 (38:47):
Yes, that is definitely a tough one.
Speaker 5 (38:50):
I use creativity a lot, and imagination quite a bit
so writing the blog posts.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
As I mentioned in the Random Acts.
Speaker 5 (39:03):
Of Meanness or Best Way to deal with Mean and
Rude Behavior, one of the solutions that I mentioned, or
one of the strategies that I recommend, is writing in
a journal or doing what is best for you.
Speaker 4 (39:18):
What makes sense to you, to relieve that tension. And
that's what helped me.
Speaker 5 (39:21):
When I got to my office that morning, I just
I opened up my laptop right away and I started
typing away, and I didn't care about if it sounded
good or it was dramatically correct. It was nice, It
certainly was not nice. I'm not sharing that document with anybody.
That was the super rough draft to the blog post, right,
you know, the one that you don't share with everybody else.
(39:44):
But it's really helped me process on a blank slate. Essentially,
it helped me process what had my feelings and what
had happened without having somebody else's opinion in there with
their own their bias or expect other people to give
the just right response.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
That I was looking for. It was really me giving.
Speaker 5 (40:07):
Myself the space to work it out with myself. And
I find that this is what people are trying to
do and what I'm trying to do when I ruminate.
Speaker 4 (40:17):
But it's a healthier way of working it out with
yourself than rumination is.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
I call that the emotional baked potato.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Oh care it because you know what, it's wrapped in foil, yes,
and so you wrap it and foil so the skin
doesn't get all dried out, so the potato can bake.
And when you're going ah bor to me, it's like
baked potato brain, you know, and you don't open the
foil until you're done roasting or else you're gonna dry out, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, oh sorry.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
I think that's really really important that you have a
first draft of your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
That's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Because that means you can say anything and you know,
be as unfair as you want and get that out
and then you.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
Look at it and go, no, this isn't really what I.
Speaker 5 (41:06):
Think exactly exactly, And it allows me to because another
thing that people are often told is well, just calm down,
don't breather And it's like, no, I can't calm down.
That is like the farthest thing from what I can
do right now. And so I actually I happen to
enjoy typing. That's a strength of mind, a skill that
(41:28):
I enjoy, and so it allows my fingers to keep
moving and sometimes that motion can really help that the
emotional part of your mind.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
The idea that we can force ourselves to calm down
is another one of those horrible social things, right, because
it's physiologically impossible. Yes, we can control our breathing. Yes
we can practice mindfulness, but we need some time for
all that corticol and adrenaline.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
To get out of our system.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
You know, I think one of the best things we
could do in the world is just when someone comes
and rattled, give them that twenty minutes to the half
an hour. Yes, because they're gonna take it on their own,
or they're gonna take it around people. They might take
it out on and we have no choice there, right it.
(42:20):
And and it really is interesting how many things and
it's got to drive you crazy as a researcher that
you see what's normal and then you see what the
science as actually helps and doesn't help, and the mismatch
is incredible, right, So what's.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Something yes, I definitely see that.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Well yeah, and then you you know, you try to
have a one on one thing and they go, well
that's not normal.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
It's like, well, yes, but it does work. Just try it.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
You know, what's what's one thing that could have helped
you when you had because we know that the appear
behavior of bystanders, especially when someone's been bullied or abused,
like beyond meanness, like when it is sort of systemic,
when there's an element of deliberateness to it. What's something
(43:13):
that would have helped you in that moment?
Speaker 3 (43:16):
Because I like to leave people with something that they can.
Speaker 5 (43:19):
Do, for one validating You don't have to agree with
the person in order to validate their feelings, like, wow,
you know if such an unexpected thing happened to me,
that rattled me up that much at the beginning of
my workday and not be a good way to start
my work day. And I can hear the distress in
your voice and just noticing those little things, like I
(43:42):
can hear the distress in your voice, and that must
be so challenging.
Speaker 4 (43:46):
Can really make a big difference.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah. I think one of the difficult things about being
a therapist is that your people's skills are so much
higher than everyone else around you.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
So it's just like no, but that's not because I.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Do think that the way people talk to other people
are extensions of how they talk to themselves, and you
start realizing how negative the self talk the people around
you are in those moments, right.
Speaker 4 (44:12):
So I wish I could realize that at the moment
I have.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Gotten so.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
As a kid, they had this thing stop look and
listen where the teacher raised the hand and you were
just supposed.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
To freeze on the spot, right.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
And I catch myself as an adult when I really
get worked up, going stop, look and listen, because if
I do anything in that moment, it's going to be
fire breathing dragon and then I'm going to have to
scrape all the char marks off the walls, and I
do not want to do that.
Speaker 8 (44:44):
I love that.
Speaker 5 (44:45):
Because it's this habitual phrase that you have, right, So
it's kind of emotionally detached in a way, and it
just brings your awareness right where it needs to be.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
And I find if it's good and stupid, it will
stop me in my track.
Speaker 4 (45:00):
Oh yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, as opposed to the I am worthy or I
deserve this or all that stuff that's like on a
pillow at one of those pottery marm type stores. It's
gotta be dumb, right, because it'll make me chuckle a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Jennifer, thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
How can people find you on Psychology Today because you
have a lot of really interesting blogs, like you go
about a dozen on this topic and they're all spectacular.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
So how can people find you?
Speaker 5 (45:26):
Oh well, thank you for the compliment, first of all,
And you can find me on the Psychology Today website.
You can search for my name in the main on
the main website for Psychology Today. I also have a
website called Moodsmoothie dot org, which name thank you, I
(45:47):
saw that.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Mood smoothie. It's so good.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yes, yeah, yeah, moodsmoothie dot org mental health resources.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
Yeah there you are, okay.
Speaker 7 (45:56):
Yes, and and even I believe the link to my
Psychology Today posts is on the website for Penn State
as well.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Oh cool, okay, but you are you are here, and
it's a really easy thing to remember. Mood Smoothie like
it's got all those long o's.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
It's fantastic. Moodsmoothie dot org.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Jennifer Kaloscar PhD, Penn State. Jennifer, thank you so much
for coming on. It's not therapy and sharing you know
what was a really vulnerable moment for you as a
person as well as a professional.
Speaker 4 (46:35):
Well, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure.
This has been so much fun.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yay, we turned a discussion of cruelty into fun. And
when we come back, a few more minutes of fun,
precious few, probably ninety seconds, and we're back.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Why am I wasting time? We'll be back after this
final break.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
And it's not therapy, no radio, no problem. Stream is
live on SAGA ninety six am dot C.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
The following program is a peer to peer advice show
and does not diagnose mental health conditions. If you're seeking
social services, please call or text two to one one
or go to two one one dot CA.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
We're back, and it's not therapy. I'm still in a kursner.
I'm still not a therapist.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
I have about a minute left, so we're gonna get
right into it because.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
It's a lot to handle. And again back to the
pain bill.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
You don't have to respond to every pain bill with
the currency of cruelty. Fighting back doesn't mean fighting cruelty
with cruelty. Right, The response doesn't have to be in kind.
Don't make problems that aren't your fault lead to mistakes
that are top ten phrase right. If someone's mean, you
(47:48):
can fight back by cutting off their cruelty line of credit,
stop giving them access to you, park your emotional assets.
Believe it or not, this actually makes them angrier than
fighting with them, so it's a double whammy.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
They likely accuse you of cruelty, but they are wrong
being cruel as a choice. They made a choice. Now
you do, and you can choose to respond without cruelty. Questions, comments,
concerns Leanna at not therapyshow dot com. Not therapyshow dot
com is the website at not Therapy Show is our socials.
(48:24):
Time is a cruel mistress and we are out of it.
You're crazy is only a problem if it's hurting you.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
Stream us live at SAGA nine am dot CA.
The views expressed in the following program are those of
the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of
SAGA nine sixty AM or its management.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
The following program is a peer to peer advice show
and does not diagnose mental health conditions.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
If you're seeking social.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Services, please call or text two to one one or
go to two one one dot CA. Hello listeners around
the world on radio, streaming and podcast services.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
This is is not therapy.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm Leanna Kerzner, and I am not a therapist, but
I am your source for navigating the madness of mental
health using my top ten sayings.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
For going good crazy.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
This week, I'm trying a slightly different audio configuration, so
bear with me if something sounds off. But we're also
going to talk about what I have named the cruelty economy.
I googled this term and nothing came up. So I'm
gonna say it's new and I'm coining the term, and
let me tell you what I mean by it.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Now.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
My guest this week is going to talk to us
about how to deal with meanness, rudeness, and other kind
of cruelty. Jennifer Keliscar, PhD, clinical psychologist and an assistant
teaching professor of biobehavioral health at Pennsylvania State University.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
She'll be on later to.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Help unpack this and find out alternatives to what I
call driving up inflation. In this cruelty economy, very few
people just decide I'm going to be mean right out
of the blue right. They're usually fighting back against some
sort of perceived injustice, and they think that fighting back
(01:37):
mean with more mean is the way to do that.
This makes cruelty, in my mind, a sort of currency,
and that currency gets traded around. We fixate on debits
and credits regarding cruelty, focusing on that fighting back instead
of moving forward. We're locked in a market where cruelty
(02:00):
is traded instead of opting out of this entire terrible system.
But with every false assumption that the cruelty, the hurt
feelings they were deliberate, a fresh cruelty credit is created.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
We're living in an age.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Of cruelty inflation where so many people assume that the
hurt they're experiencing was intentionally done to them, that the
rate of cruelty creation has reached an exponential rate. It's
very very unhappy math. This is why I say, listen
twice before you talk once. I listen to people for
(02:36):
a living, and something I've noticed, and now I'm hyper
aware of it is that people tend to assume ill
intent in others, but then they're confused why they themselves
didn't get benefit of the doubt that they didn't mean
to hurt somebody's feelings. If you think of assumptions of
ill intent as pain bills, well then you're gonna have
(02:59):
to pay them sometimes. Right, when you're retaliating against a
perceived cruelty with cruelty of your own, you are being cruel.
Your reasons don't change the fact that you were cruel. Now,
imagine if the person didn't actually send that pain bill
(03:21):
you were paying, Right, they're going to be very confused
as to why they're receiving a cruelty payment, aren't they,
And they're gonna want to return that cruelty because, well,
the rules you put out there are rules you have
to accept, and they don't feel like they deserve that
pain bill.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Oh but that's deliberate too.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, it doesn't matter who's paying the pain bill, you're
doing it intentionally. And so a fresh round of cruelty
economics ensues. And now We're in an all out trade
roar with increasing cruelty tariffs flying back and forth, and
the whole trade war thing was kind of got me
thinking about this because I know I'm going to need
(04:03):
a new laptop soon, and it's really annoying me because
I can't afford one immediately. I have other expenses, and
so it's frustrating that I'm probably gonna get hit with
a twenty five percent surcharge because of retaliatory tariffs.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Now, I completely.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Understand that this is politics, not sound economic policy. The
average voter would rather pay more for some things than
do absolutely nothing, even though tariffs punish the importer in
the short term as opposed to the you know, the exporter.
Tariffing computers I think is an especially terrible idea. Now
(04:41):
with Microsoft forcing everyone to upgrade to Windows eleven by
this coming October, if your computer is more than a few,
you know, a few years old, it might not run
Windows eleven. So you're going to be in the same
boat as me with having to pay more for a computer.
That's the price is gonna go down, likely when Trump
(05:02):
leaves office. But we have to fight back, right, we
have to pay that pain.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Bill I get it.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Oh, last week I had more than my fair share
of people being awful to me when I was really
at low abb I had to take a personal week,
and I just wanted to smash something. I originally took
the offal in the chin and just back down, deciding
to be the bigger person. So one of these jerks
(05:31):
decided to fight with my friends instead and then blame
me for the argument after I left it, accusing me
of dun dun da being part of a clique. The
thing that struck me was it start to finish. It
was a pointless argument, at least to me. It literally
started over the definition of a rite of passage.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Wonky stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Right, The original guy who got big mad treated someone
correcting him on objective fact acts into you know, treated
that as my friend bullying him, because apparently, in twenty
twenty five, if you don't agree with the equivalent of
two plus two equals five, you're a bully. See now,
(06:16):
some of you are chomping at the bit to fight
out who said what so you can judge who was
right and who was wrong. And that's a big part
of the problem, because, like I said, none of it
was terribly important, but fine, Okay, this is what happened.
The guy was insisting that men needing to make money
so that women will date them was a right of passage.
(06:37):
And no, no, there is nothing in that ongoing activity
that marks a transition from one stage of life to
the next. A bar mitzvah is a right of passage.
A wedding is a right of passage. A funeral is
a right of passage. The hustle is not a right
of passage. And this is the point where some people
will try to pick up that argument, and it says
(06:57):
bra had a point, though, and this is the cruelty
economy in action. You are hijacking a present conversation because
of pain you felt in the past, and you got
a pain bill to pay. So you're gonna go, oh,
you got a point. Yeah, But the point, the problem point,
was accusing somebody of bullying them because they corrected them, right,
(07:24):
And that's the thing. This guy was probably paying a
pain bill as well. Yeah, girls were mean to him
in high school.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
That sucks.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
But the person you're talking to in the present didn't
send you that pain bill. So where they're coming from,
you know, you paying them back the pain bill. You're
making this entire thing about you and to people in
the present. That's just obnoxious. Feelings are not facts, and
(07:52):
external validation is nice, but you can't demand it. The
minute you demand validation.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
It's worthless.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
In the crueltyomy, if you're walking around deep in a
pain debt, you're gonna have a hair trigger when it
comes to paying back those pain bills. Trust me, I
feel you. I spent all last week feeling stomped on
and exhausted. But in our society we put a very
high value on paying those pain bills right, and a
(08:19):
very low value on reducing cruelty inflation. So we've got
an overheated cruelty economy where the pain bills are increasing,
but our payments are fighting back, standing up for ourselves,
not taking it anymore. Well, they seem to be worth
less and less, don't they, Because inflation we need to
fight more and more and the payment on the pain
(08:42):
bills goes less and less. Far as long as cruelty
inflation keeps going up, that's not gonna get any better.
We need to apply qualitative tightening to the cruelty economy,
which means taking some cruelty out of the market. This
means not responding to every pain bill with the currency
(09:04):
of cruelty. And I have an expert who will help
us do that. Jennifer Kelluscar, PhD is a clinical psychologist
and an Assistant teaching Professor of Biobehavioral Health at Pennsylvania
State University, and she'll talk to us about better ways.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
To deal with mean and rude people.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
After the break. Do you have a story or topic
you think would be good for the show? Are you
interested in sponsoring this show? Leanna Atntherapyshow dot com. Not
Therapyshow dot com is the website at not Therapy Show
on socials.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
When we come back, how.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
To qualitatively tighten this cruelty Economy on It's Not.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Therapy, No Radio, No Problem stream is live on SAGA
ninety six am dot C.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
The following program is a peer to peer advice show
and does not diagnose mental health conditions. If you're seeking
social services, please call or text two one one or
go to two.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
We're back at It's Not Therapy.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
I'm still Leanna Kersner, I am still not a therapist,
and we are still talking about the cruelty economy. And
as promised, I have a guest that is gonna help
us navigate alternatives to inflation in the cruelty economy. I
have Jennifer Kaluscar, clinical psychologist and Assistant teaching Professor of
Biobehavioral Health at Pennsylvania State University. Jennifer, welcome. Thank you
(10:34):
for being kind enough to come on.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
It's not therapy.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited
to be here now.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
We reached out to you because you did an article
on you're in the emotional regulation category of psychology today
and it was the best way to deal with meanness
and rudeness, and you told a story yourself about I'm like,
oh no, I was afraid for you because you're biking
in the snow into a canoe. That is like, that
(11:01):
is so perilous, right, And you did what people did.
A lot the roads too slushy, so you go on
the sidewalk's right, and you had the the reaction that
a lot of cyclists I think are familiar with here,
especially in downtown Toronto, of use the bike lane.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
This woman, it was a woman that just started yelling
at you yes, yeah, and you had the all too
familiar response of.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Being really shaken by that.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, And that's where I want to start, because I
think everybody can relate to that somebody just getting aggressive.
It has a biological response. It does something to our physiology,
and I think understanding why dealing with meanness and rudeness
is so difficult starts there. So what happens to our
(11:53):
bodies when somebody just comes at us like that?
Speaker 5 (11:58):
It activates are autonomic nervous system, which is basically this
part of the nervous system that is, it regulates involuntary functions,
and specifically, it activates the part of this nervous system,
of the autonomic nervous system that essentially brings about the
(12:19):
fight or flight response.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
It's a very primitive response.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
We really have little control over it happening. It's more
so how we respond to it. That's we have relatively
more control over.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, and that you know, panic response that freeze fight
for on or flight response.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
It leads to bad decisions, right.
Speaker 6 (12:44):
Yes, And sometimes I guess, you know, like sometimes it
could allow us to get away from a threat more quickly.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
But the thing is, our bodies respond to threats that
are actually threatening our lives and threats that are not
so life threatening but psychologically threatening really in the same way.
And it's the latter where we kind of get ourselves
into trouble sometimes.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah, because threats to our sense of belonging, our sense
of place in the social order are very threatening. Our
brands can't tell the difference between you know, old school, Oh,
I'm going to get eaten by a saber tooth tiger
or I'm going to get hit by a car and
I'm going to be ostracized. I've done something wrong. My
place in society is now being jeopardized, and people are
(13:35):
in a constantly heightened state that way, It seems that
the fear of being knocked out of the social order
is one of the most profound sources of anxiety that
people are dealing with.
Speaker 7 (13:49):
Now.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Have you found that in your work as well?
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Absolutely, And I'll just add that this is a fear
that is very much part of being human. We're all species.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
But I would say that the individuals I work with
who largely present with issues like anxiety disorders, it's like
even more heightened for them, and that could make daily
life stuff that happens seem less tolerable. Really.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, if every kind of negative social exchange goes from
that person's mad at me, They're going to contact my employer.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
The employer is going to think I did something wrong.
I'm gonna get fired.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Like, there's no way to walk that off when that's
the way your brain is going.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Sure, it's tough, Yeah, And I.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Find a lot of young people coming out of the
educational system with that. We call it catastrophizing, but that's
what they're told is gonna happen, right, Like, if you
don't study hard in grade nine, they're gonna look at
your grades for college and you're not gonna get into
a good school, so you're not gonna get a good job.
So you're gonna be and he listen, homeless when your
(15:01):
parents are gone, Like we do this to people.
Speaker 8 (15:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
One of my favorite research studies as of late is
a meta analysis by the perfectionism expert Thomas Curran that
basically shows that at least amongst college aged individuals, there
has been an increase in perfectionism since I believe the
nineteen eighties, And I often think about how that's really
(15:26):
related to a lot of this increase in mental health
issues and anxiety. You know, it fuels this binary thinking.
I'm either a success or I'm a failure. And if
I'm a failure, if I fail at something, I'm a
failure as a person.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, and meanness can really pick that scap all right,
when when someone is going you are a failure as
a person because you drove on the sidewalk for one intersection, Right,
That really gets to that insecurity, it's taking something that's
a seed that's already been planted and just like bombarding
(16:06):
it with radiation, so it turns into the guy from
Little Shop of Horse.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
It's amazing how unnecessary aggression, unnecessary cruelty can.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Really rattle us.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Yes, and this goes into the next part of your
article where the first thing we tend to do is
ruminate on it, right, Like just go over and over
and over it.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Yes, right, what does that do to us?
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Well, it doesn't help, that's for sure. That's for sure.
It's kind of our.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
Way of trying to problem solve or to basically make
everything okay. You know, if I if I just think
about this again and again, I'll try to find some rationale,
some reasoning for why this happened, or justification for how
(17:02):
I acted, or even if that conclusion is that well,
the world is just a terrible place, that's why this
all happened, or such a cold, rejecting place. So it
certainly is not a healthy way of coping, but it's
more like what we call.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
A maladaptive way of coping. We're trying to deal with.
Speaker 5 (17:24):
This situation, but unfortunately it is we're just digging ourselves
into a deeper and deeper rut.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
And it's understandable, right, people, this was painful, this was scary.
I don't want it to happen again. And people get
hung up on this idea that I can control it.
You know, there are people that are still dealing with
cruelties that they experienced in high school, sometimes elementary school,
and they're trying to function as adults and it is
(17:53):
just you know, piling up and up and up and up,
because it all becomes this continuum, right, everything gets flattened.
And I mean when when you hit that, it's a
full blown trauma. We're not just talking about, oh, somebody.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Was mean to you anymore.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Now, we're actually talking about time and space not functioning
psychologically the way it needs to for us to heal
and get distance. So what is a better way not
to because I don't want to jump ahead, because getting
over it is one thing, but putting its proper place
(18:29):
in the first place, I think is something a lot
of people skip. And you deal with this in your article.
You deal with this in another article that you wrote
that I also found fascinating about a justice response, a
high justice sensitivity, you called it. And I think that
(18:51):
people who have a narrative of being you know, you
talked about victimization in this, but have a narrative in
their lives of being this helpless victim of cruelty, they
have a high justice sensitivity. So let's explore that concept
because I think it's really helpful.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Yeah, yeah, so, I mean justice sensitivity.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
If you look at the literature, they are all these
different kinds of justice sensitivity, and it's just one of
those things that can be used for such good. Like
activists have a high justice sensitivity. And when we talk
about a particular kind of justice sensitivity called victim sensitivity, we're.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
Thinking about other people.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
Who are victims and we're trying to advocate for them.
So it can really be a beautiful thing, and even
beautiful for ourselves because sometimes, you know, we really are.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
The victims and we need to advocate for ourselves.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
However, it can also lead to digging ourselves into this
whole of being helpless and everyone else being the problem,
and that's when it becomes unhealthy for the person and
not very good for social relationships.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, that's I've seen that a lot in you know,
younger adults, where activism is the new rock and roll
right now, right, and they have this you know, inaccurate assumption, right,
like a fundamental attribution error, that everyone else is totally
in control and they know exactly what they're doing and
(20:30):
they've got it all figured out, and they are the
lone person that is just helplessly flailing against the world.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
And that's not true.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
The vast majority of us are just muddling through each day. Yeah,
And I do find that this idea of justice and
this idea of you know, they're being entire classes of
people who simply by existing are unjust. It's getting generations stuck.
(21:03):
And I don't want to politicize this too much. I
want to keep it in the realm of psychology. But
that idea right of oh, you drove on the bike
lane just to be a jerk, instead of it's because
the road was unsafe.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
That's part of this continuum.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Right, yes, yeah, And I'm I'm careful because I make
the smash patriarchy jokes. But at the same time, we
really have to be careful that we're not engaging with
the entire world through victimhood because that is that justice sensitivity. Right,
If you're constantly it's not fair, it's not fair, it's
(21:44):
not fair. You're never going to engage at an emotional
age of more than about six years old when that
idea starts forming, right right now.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
What are the pitfalls of this?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Because you're the expert when you're coming at these things
from the position of that person who yelled at you
for driving on the sidewalk, which I like this example
because it big deal. No one got hurt, right, it's
a guideline, but in inclement weather, it's like, you don't
listen to speed limits in inclement weather, you drive at
(22:16):
the speed it's safe, right, right, So same thing, You
were doing what you perceived to be safe. But this
person who clearly was kind of at the end of
the rope, somehow decided a good.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Idea was to yell at you for that.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
What do you think was going on with that other
person in that moment that we can relate to and
sort of not be that guy.
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Oh I see, yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
I mean, if I may give the most honest answer,
I have no clue.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
I have no clue.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
And that's I think an important part of all of this.
One of my clinical supervisors years ago said something that
I'm sure many parents and mentors have said to other people,
and it's that you never really know what another.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Person is going through or has gone through.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
So maybe she was just having a bad day, right,
And as I was trying to cope with this situation,
there was this rational voice that was whispering this in
my mind, like maybe she was just having a bad day.
Maybe she's not feeling well, like something is off in
(23:30):
her body. It's making her emotions really hard to control.
And while that rational voice.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Was going on in my mind, that.
Speaker 5 (23:39):
Autonomic nervous system was still getting me activated, and I
still felt like a wreck.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
You know that that's.
Speaker 5 (23:49):
The what DBT clinicians would call the emotional mind versus
the rational mind. So all the rational good sense in
the world, but you're still going to feel awful because
of that emotional piece that It took me a while
to attend to and I can go on about.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
That a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, I think that's really important. It's a great way
to tease a break. So a hold on a second,
We're going to take a break. We're gonna come back
with Jennifer Koalascar, the PhD, Assistant Teaching Professor of behavior
bio Behavioral Health at Pennsylvania State University. I completely butchered that,
but we'll be back more with Jennifer after this on
(24:34):
It's Not Therapy.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Pastream us live at SAGA nine six am dot CA.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
The following program is a peer to peer advice show
and does not diagnose mental health conditions. If you're seeking
social services, please call or text two to one one
or go to two one one dot CA.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
We're back in It's not therapy.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I'm still lean occurs and I'm still not a therapist.
We are still talking to Jennifer Kloskar, PhD, Clinical psychologists
and Assistant teaching Professor of Biobehavioral Health at penn State University,
and we're talking about mean people and the effect it
has on us, and how we can stop adding to
what I call the cruelty economy. There's too much inflation
(25:24):
in the cruelty economy right now. And before the break, Jennifer,
we were talking about that emotional mind versus the rational
mind and how kind of asking questions, kind of perspective
taking can make them work better together.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I've found a DBT Dialectical behavior therapy very very very
useful for this of Okay, I am being emotional and
that's okay. One that was a huge sketch step. I
was skipping telling myself it's okay to have emotions right, right,
And I think that's a big thing when we start
(26:03):
trying to parse it from a fact based way, right, like, oh,
it was unsafe, I was driving on the sidewalk on
my bike because there was snow on the ground.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
It's okay to be rattled.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
We skip that step, right, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
And my first step really one of my first steps,
you know, because I was biking to work at the time,
so I couldn't do much other than.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
Ruminates as I was biking to work. And then I
get to my office and.
Speaker 5 (26:31):
I start calling relatives, talking to friends, and you know,
the responses were very well intentioned and out of love
and concern, but we're unintentionally invalidating at times so things like, oh, well,
technically you were breaking the rule, right really supposed to
(26:56):
you know, you're not supposed to bike on the sidewalk,
or let it roll off your back, don't let it
ruin your day.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
That's one that I'll often hear.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
And these are said with such great intention because people
are caring, but unintentionally they're invalidating the emotional stuff that's
going on at the time, because, like I said, I
already knew all the rational stuff.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
It was, you know, it was that whisper of running
through my.
Speaker 8 (27:23):
Mind, but I really needed to validate myself in the
moment and to seek valid if I'm seeking validation from others,
to seek validation in a.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Very pointed, direct, specific way, because yeah, that's how people
are going to react. They don't know how to help
or you.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
Know, they're seeing things from their perspective.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
They haven't lived in your shoes and gone through that
same exact scenario, and so it's really impossible for them
to really one hundred percent understand.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yeah, I find that don't let it get to you thinking. It's,
like you said, intended to be helpful, but it's so
unhelpful because if somebody is coming to you about something
that bothered them. It's already gotten to them, right, it's
already ruined your day. You might be able to salvage
the rest of the day, but this part of the
day officially ruined.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
Well you should say that because I'm an anxious person.
So somebody says, don't let it ruin your day, I'm like,
oh crap, now I'm gonna let it ruin my day.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Now I am not only upset, I have committed some
moral failing by letting this happen, right.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
Yeah, yes, yeah, it's going to continue to be a
screw up for.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
The rest of.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
It's the exact opposite that we know what works in
terms of emotional regulation, and yet these things are everywhere
in culture.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Yes, right.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
And I mean what I've taken to saying to people
is it's okay to be rattled by that. When I'm
in those situations, all of a sudden's yelling, someone's yelling
at you. It's like, especially when you're doing something like
riding a bike, where you have to constantly be scanning
for something that's going to indicate somebody's going to run
into you.
Speaker 9 (29:11):
Yes, yeah, so yeah, it's it's a challenge because it
is human to reach out in those moments, but often
it ends.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Up we feel worse instead of better.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yes, right, and that compounds the feeling of unfairness, and
that actually makes that mean exchange dig in even deeper.
And then then the do something brain kicks in and
we start doing really inadvisable things, right, right, So what
(29:45):
is an alternative? I mean, you did say seeking validation
in very specific ways, and I'd love to unpack that
because I think what you're saying is having the presence
of mind, which is difficult when you're anxious, but having
the presence of mind to go. I don't need to
hear I was driving on the sidewalk and that's technically illegal.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
I know.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I just need somebody to talk to about I'm freaked
out about getting yelled at.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Yeah, like being very specific and very intentional about what
you're looking for from the other person.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
Yes, And that is okay to do, you know, I
think people are reluctant to do it. I've been reluctant
to ask for validation or just to be given reassurance
that I am a good person.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
You know that I do try to follow the rules.
I do try to be respectful.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
You know, asking for that specifically is sometimes challenging because
you're thinking the other person, the other person really should
know that, or it'll feels so much more authentic if
I don't have to tell them. This is part of
just being a compassionate human being to yourself and others.
Really both is to ask very specifically for what you need.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
And the fact that you felt bad about that.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
This is what I think is cool when you start
understanding the rule of negative emotions, right, the fact that
you were even going, I'm a good person, I don't
like to break rules. Well, you're validating the fact that
you care about rules because that bothers you.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yes, right, and little things like that.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Feeling bad about something processed in a useful way can
actually be validating in its own right, right, reassuring ourselves
because when somebody is adamant that you did it on
purpose and you're just this horrible monster that did things
with absolute awareness of surroundings, right, it can make us
(31:43):
question whether we did mean to do it.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
Yes, yeah, restely that self doubt factor, and I think
that's an important piece to look at because maybe there
are other people who would have yes, been rattled but
would have much more quickly than I did. I mean,
it really dampened my entire morning, right, So I need
(32:07):
to look at what are some things about me and
how I'm processing this that is contributing to you know, again,
that initial.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Rattling is very you know.
Speaker 5 (32:17):
Very universal part of how our nervous system functions. But
how can I take more control over how I'm processing
it throughout the day.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
And that's where I think being gentle with ourselves is
another thing I got from DBT is really helpful, right
because you were already riding your bike in unsafe conditions, right,
meaning you were sort of pre rattled.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Yeah, right, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
Making decisions and not being sure that I was making
the right one, you know, at every quarter.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Really yeah, And if you're a if you're a rule
abiding person who decides to break a rule for your
own safety, you're already feeling intensely vulnerable, and so somebody
punishing you for going against your nature for safety, that's like,
that's not one thing, that's three things all compounding on
(33:12):
your nervous system.
Speaker 5 (33:13):
Absolutely, And I'll tell you that one thing I did
right after that happened as I was biking to work
is I did try biking on the bike path with
the snow and ice. Well, that's something we call over correcting.
I had to follow the rule because I had just
been yelled at and follow. I had to follow the.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Rule against my own judgment.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
I had to go against what my intuition and better
sense of judgment was telling me to do.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
And it was such a bad decision. Let me tell you.
Speaker 8 (33:44):
I was.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
I had to get off my bike and walk it
for part of the commute.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, which is ultimately what you decided you were going
to do according to the article going forward is if
it's unsafe, I'm going to get off my bike, I'm
going to walk. You're allowed to be an honorary Canadian here, Jennifer,
and like take an Uber.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
When its nos you know, I know you're adding to a.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Carbon footprint, but you know the Uber driver could be
driving a priest, so you're okay. But yeah, those are
the sort of things. It just shows how complicated our
decision making is. Yeah. Yeah, And I do think that
we spend so much of our lives on this tightrope,
you know, balancing a sword on our nose. Instead in
(34:29):
terms of moral decision making and That's why that concept
of justice I think really ties in to the concept
of cruelty, because if we it's one thing to hope
something's fair, it's another thing to expect things to be fair.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Right, And you had a professor just go life's not fair.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, and this was really fundamental for you. Yes, Now,
how did you process that? Because this was a really
difficult thing for me to learn how to handle. And everybody,
i think tells a story about unfairness in their own way.
So how do you process unfairness so you can process
(35:12):
people being mean never knowing why they did it.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Yeah, well that's a great question, and I'll be honest,
I am still working on that, Like, this is not
something that I have figured out completely, because I still
have my moments where it's really hard even watching the
news and seeing, without getting too political, seeing how some
people are treating other people. It's almost like it's triggering
(35:40):
to me because it's reminding me of the past and
things that have happened where it's just like wow.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
One, it's one.
Speaker 5 (35:46):
Thing for people to be mean because they didn't get
enough sleep the night before, they're feeling, you know, they're
having a bad day.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
But another thing for them to be completely unaware of
how of how mean they are.
Speaker 5 (36:01):
But you know what, it's not my job to change that,
you know, I can't change that, and it's not my responsibility.
And I think people with high justice sensitivity they take
they tend to take on way more responsibilities than the
highest governing official whatever have on their job duties list right,
(36:23):
And if you see it more so as lessening, allowing
yourself to lessen the burden that you're carrying instead of
having to make things right, you know, because another thing
is we get very stuck in right or wrong.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
The world is more fluid than that.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
I mean, there are, of course, there are examples of
gross atrocities and of course are clearly clearly wrong. But
when you talk to people as I've talked to people
on different sides of the political spectrum.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Right, and.
Speaker 5 (36:58):
It's amazing how everybody has their reasons and see the
different way and so from seeing the world and the
way they're seeing it. Even if I totally don't see
the world and the way they see it, everything that
they're thinking does seem right.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Often are often our error in reasoning happens right at
the beginning with our fundamental assumptions about a given problem.
And I do think that you gave some really great
advice in your article about mean and rude people.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
You said, don't expect to feel understood.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yeah, and this is a huge thing because we really
value self expression. Yes, right, We've been told people should
always validate your feelings, and we've had some scope creep
on feelings where people go, I feel and then offer
an opinion because feelings are always valid, right, But how
(37:55):
do you get I know how I do it.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
I tend to go so you know, control what you
can control.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
And I'm going to say this to be sure the
other person has all the information.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
I don't expect them to accept it.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
I'm just gonna say it because that means I know,
and I'm not making an assumption that they know something
they don't. That helps me with the rejection if somebody
doesn't get it. But it still sucks when somebody doesn't
understand you, Right, So what's your advice for that?
Speaker 5 (38:29):
You know?
Speaker 2 (38:29):
And I think it's a great caveat saying I'm still
working on it. This is the foundation of peer counseling, right,
that we don't have all the answers. We're just further
ahead than the people we're working with, but we are
still working on it. What's your process for dealing with
not being understood?
Speaker 4 (38:47):
Yes, that is definitely a tough one.
Speaker 5 (38:50):
I use creativity a lot, and imagination quite a bit
so writing the blog posts.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
As I mentioned in the Random Acts.
Speaker 5 (39:03):
Of Meanness or Best Way to deal with Mean and
Rude Behavior, one of the solutions that I mentioned, or
one of the strategies that I recommend, is writing in
a journal or doing what is best for you.
Speaker 4 (39:18):
What makes sense to you, to relieve that tension. And
that's what helped me.
Speaker 5 (39:21):
When I got to my office that morning, I just
I opened up my laptop right away and I started
typing away, and I didn't care about if it sounded
good or it was dramatically correct. It was nice, It
certainly was not nice. I'm not sharing that document with anybody.
That was the super rough draft to the blog post, right,
you know, the one that you don't share with everybody else.
(39:44):
But it's really helped me process on a blank slate. Essentially,
it helped me process what had my feelings and what
had happened without having somebody else's opinion in there with
their own their bias or expect other people to give
the just right response.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
That I was looking for. It was really me giving.
Speaker 5 (40:07):
Myself the space to work it out with myself. And
I find that this is what people are trying to
do and what I'm trying to do when I ruminate.
Speaker 4 (40:17):
But it's a healthier way of working it out with
yourself than rumination is.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
I call that the emotional baked potato.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Oh care it because you know what, it's wrapped in foil, yes,
and so you wrap it and foil so the skin
doesn't get all dried out, so the potato can bake.
And when you're going ah bor to me, it's like
baked potato brain, you know, and you don't open the
foil until you're done roasting or else you're gonna dry out, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, oh sorry.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
I think that's really really important that you have a
first draft of your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
That's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Because that means you can say anything and you know,
be as unfair as you want and get that out
and then you.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
Look at it and go, no, this isn't really what I.
Speaker 5 (41:06):
Think exactly exactly, And it allows me to because another
thing that people are often told is well, just calm down,
don't breather And it's like, no, I can't calm down.
That is like the farthest thing from what I can
do right now. And so I actually I happen to
enjoy typing. That's a strength of mind, a skill that
(41:28):
I enjoy, and so it allows my fingers to keep
moving and sometimes that motion can really help that the
emotional part of your mind.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
The idea that we can force ourselves to calm down
is another one of those horrible social things, right, because
it's physiologically impossible. Yes, we can control our breathing. Yes
we can practice mindfulness, but we need some time for
all that corticol and adrenaline.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
To get out of our system.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
You know, I think one of the best things we
could do in the world is just when someone comes
and rattled, give them that twenty minutes to the half
an hour. Yes, because they're gonna take it on their own,
or they're gonna take it around people. They might take
it out on and we have no choice there, right it.
(42:20):
And and it really is interesting how many things and
it's got to drive you crazy as a researcher that
you see what's normal and then you see what the
science as actually helps and doesn't help, and the mismatch
is incredible, right, So what's.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Something yes, I definitely see that.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Well yeah, and then you you know, you try to
have a one on one thing and they go, well
that's not normal.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
It's like, well, yes, but it does work. Just try it.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
You know, what's what's one thing that could have helped
you when you had because we know that the appear
behavior of bystanders, especially when someone's been bullied or abused,
like beyond meanness, like when it is sort of systemic,
when there's an element of deliberateness to it. What's something
(43:13):
that would have helped you in that moment?
Speaker 3 (43:16):
Because I like to leave people with something that they can.
Speaker 5 (43:19):
Do, for one validating You don't have to agree with
the person in order to validate their feelings, like, wow,
you know if such an unexpected thing happened to me,
that rattled me up that much at the beginning of
my workday and not be a good way to start
my work day. And I can hear the distress in
your voice and just noticing those little things, like I
(43:42):
can hear the distress in your voice, and that must
be so challenging.
Speaker 4 (43:46):
Can really make a big difference.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah. I think one of the difficult things about being
a therapist is that your people's skills are so much
higher than everyone else around you.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
So it's just like no, but that's not because I.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Do think that the way people talk to other people
are extensions of how they talk to themselves, and you
start realizing how negative the self talk the people around
you are in those moments, right.
Speaker 4 (44:12):
So I wish I could realize that at the moment
I have.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Gotten so.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
As a kid, they had this thing stop look and
listen where the teacher raised the hand and you were
just supposed.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
To freeze on the spot, right.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
And I catch myself as an adult when I really
get worked up, going stop, look and listen, because if
I do anything in that moment, it's going to be
fire breathing dragon and then I'm going to have to
scrape all the char marks off the walls, and I
do not want to do that.
Speaker 8 (44:44):
I love that.
Speaker 5 (44:45):
Because it's this habitual phrase that you have, right, So
it's kind of emotionally detached in a way, and it
just brings your awareness right where it needs to be.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
And I find if it's good and stupid, it will
stop me in my track.
Speaker 4 (45:00):
Oh yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, as opposed to the I am worthy or I
deserve this or all that stuff that's like on a
pillow at one of those pottery marm type stores. It's
gotta be dumb, right, because it'll make me chuckle a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Jennifer, thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
How can people find you on Psychology Today because you
have a lot of really interesting blogs, like you go
about a dozen on this topic and they're all spectacular.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
So how can people find you?
Speaker 5 (45:26):
Oh well, thank you for the compliment, first of all,
And you can find me on the Psychology Today website.
You can search for my name in the main on
the main website for Psychology Today. I also have a
website called Moodsmoothie dot org, which name thank you, I
(45:47):
saw that.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Mood smoothie. It's so good.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yes, yeah, yeah, moodsmoothie dot org mental health resources.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
Yeah there you are, okay.
Speaker 7 (45:56):
Yes, and and even I believe the link to my
Psychology Today posts is on the website for Penn State
as well.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Oh cool, okay, but you are you are here, and
it's a really easy thing to remember. Mood Smoothie like
it's got all those long o's.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
It's fantastic. Moodsmoothie dot org.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Jennifer Kaloscar PhD, Penn State. Jennifer, thank you so much
for coming on. It's not therapy and sharing you know
what was a really vulnerable moment for you as a
person as well as a professional.
Speaker 4 (46:35):
Well, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure.
This has been so much fun.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yay, we turned a discussion of cruelty into fun. And
when we come back, a few more minutes of fun,
precious few, probably ninety seconds, and we're back.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Why am I wasting time? We'll be back after this
final break.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
And it's not therapy, no radio, no problem. Stream is
live on SAGA ninety six am dot C.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
The following program is a peer to peer advice show
and does not diagnose mental health conditions. If you're seeking
social services, please call or text two to one one
or go to two one one dot CA.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
We're back, and it's not therapy. I'm still in a kursner.
I'm still not a therapist.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
I have about a minute left, so we're gonna get
right into it because.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
It's a lot to handle. And again back to the
pain bill.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
You don't have to respond to every pain bill with
the currency of cruelty. Fighting back doesn't mean fighting cruelty
with cruelty. Right, The response doesn't have to be in kind.
Don't make problems that aren't your fault lead to mistakes
that are top ten phrase right. If someone's mean, you
(47:48):
can fight back by cutting off their cruelty line of credit,
stop giving them access to you, park your emotional assets.
Believe it or not, this actually makes them angrier than
fighting with them, so it's a double whammy.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
They likely accuse you of cruelty, but they are wrong
being cruel as a choice. They made a choice. Now
you do, and you can choose to respond without cruelty. Questions, comments,
concerns Leanna at not therapyshow dot com. Not therapyshow dot
com is the website at not Therapy Show is our socials.
(48:24):
Time is a cruel mistress and we are out of it.
You're crazy is only a problem if it's hurting you.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
Stream us live at SAGA nine am dot CA.
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