Casting Call: Insider

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hello, thanks for joining me hereon Jamie's Club. Strap yourself in and
be prepared today for what's going tobe a really good chat. Relaxed shoulders
a little bit. Yep, that'sbetter. Now you're looking ready, Right,
I'm talking with Graham Devalanced today.Graham is a casting director and he
works with a Cast of Thousands.This is a business that he set up

(00:29):
with his wife Kirsty, and theyhave cast so many shows across Australia.
I'm talking stuff like Master Chef,Biggest Loser, Minute to Win It,
The Bachelor, a ton of shows. I could rattle them all off,
but I won't do them all inthe intro just here. He's also got
a new project that he's just launched, and this is called a Cast of

(00:52):
Thousands Insider. This is a subscriptionservice where he assists people in crafting better
applications so you can get the attentionof a casting director, which he'd know
how to do because he is acasting director. Right. I think this
is really cool for anyone who's reallyserious about getting on to Telly. If
that's not for you, that's fine. I suggest heading to Facebook finding a

(01:15):
cast of thousands anyway, give thema follow see what they're casting at any
given time and drop them a messagewhile you're there and say, Graham heard
you on the Jamies Club podcast.You did well, Champ. I think
that would go a long way aswell. Today I want to speak with
Graham about what got him into casting, also what makes him choose one person

(01:36):
over another when he is casting forone of these shows. I'm curious about
if people are cast specifically to bevillains or if they become villains through the
show, And is there a limiton the amount of shows that you can
do. Does it work to youradvantage or disadvantage when you've been on other
shows. If you want to findout more about a Cast of thousands Insider,

(01:57):
just google it or the links willbe attacked to this podcast. But
for now, this is Graham Devalanceof a Cast of Thousands talking about the
early days in the business. Whenwe started the Cast of Thousands in two
thousand and five, that was Kurseand I read through the business name and
Curse trading under that name and mehelping out after hours and I'd come home

(02:23):
from my job. It was abig thing, like Biggest Loser and things
like that. Then like you know, there were sort of smaller projects that
obviously through day to day she justran ran solo. And then two thousand
and eight was towards middle two thousandand eight, I was an advertising very
similar to what you're talking about interms of media and stuff, and I

(02:43):
thought, look, you know,I was really really sick of doing you
know, seventy hour weeks and thought, I need a break from this.
And we just had our first firstchild as well, and Kirsty was working
ten days after giving birth back forbecause we had someone coming to run run

(03:04):
one client that we had ongoing andthey freaked out after like a week,
so Kirsty started doing it. Andthen when it came to number two coming
on board, I just thought,look, you know, there's a time
to let go of the side ofthe pool and swim to the deep end
and see it happens. And ifthings don't work out, that's cool.
You know, you only get oneshot, you know, And we saw

(03:28):
the opportunity there, so we justran with it. And the first job
I think we got when we workedtogether full time in the office to get
a full time would have been masterChef, which first season, yeah,
first season. Yeah, So wewere lucky enough to do four regular seasons
of that two Celebrity two junior seriesand that was a massive part of our

(03:52):
life for four or so years there, and a huge part of my heart
is with that show being a realpassionate self cook myself, you know,
home cook myself. But also justthat show I think really challenged what we
needed to see as Australians in away, you know, because that show

(04:12):
really championed quite achieved is it justhad a passion and there might have been
some concerns that there might not beenough drama with people that might be,
you know, the loudest person inthe room, but you know what there
is because there's shit tons of jeopardyand they're people that we relate to,
you know. And that's still oneof the things that I think is a
real cornerstone for what I love tryingto find is an authenticity in people that

(04:41):
resonates with people at home. That'sthat's what you want to try to tap
into. Yeah, I got totell you, when Master Chef Season one
was around, I probably shouldn't evenbe admitting this, but bugger, let's
do it. I was on radioand I was saying, like oh,
so they're putting a cooking show,cooking reality show kind of into prime time.
I'm like, this is going tobe ready, steady cook at night.

(05:02):
No one's going to watch. Thiscomes out to the Grand Final and
it outrates the AFL Grand Final oneyear for the finale of it, and
I just had to eat my words. It was an absolute It's like,
so it couldn't have been more wrong. Tended to be one of the biggest
shows that ever in Australia's ever seen. It wasn't. It wasn't easy though,

(05:24):
because you know, it's such arisk adverse market in Australia. To
do a show like that that hadn'tbeen done before was a massive risk.
And Ten was so good in thisera when David Mott was running it,
not that it's not now, buthe really instilled this, I think great
culture. Whether he took took arisk for something that that's really sadly lacking

(05:46):
at the moment I think in media. But I understand why. I mean,
financially it's so hard, the marginsare so fine. To be able
to make money out of things,it's hard, but you know, there
was an opportunity there that was thatwas seen and it was taken, and
you know, we took a showthat it was very much a show for
true true foodies, being the Britishversion, and we you know, supersized

(06:10):
it for one of a better term. And you know, as we said,
you know, there was concern that, you know, are we going
to have enough big characters and allthat kind of stuff, but the format
is what brought all of that,you know, and I likened it to
the Australian idol of cooking. That'show I felt like it was going to
be when it started. But themore that you dove into it and the

(06:30):
more that you started seeing these people, I thought, now you know what
it's gonna it's going to work.And it's going to work because we're going
to be really heavily invested in thesepeople. We're going to be talking about
them. And I remember because whenKirsty and I would work together closely,
I used to like taking the leaderon reading the applications. And not that
it's it's like I'm a control freak. It's not that at all. But

(06:53):
I liked reading a lot of theI like reading a lot of the applications
back to back because I just gotmy eye in on what I thought is
required. And the second season,I read ten thousand applications over Christmas New
Year, and they were really longdays. But you know, you know
exactly what you're kind of looking for, and obviously you've got some parameters upon

(07:14):
which I think, I think theremight be something here with this person or
that person, but you kind ofhave a good idea. And I remember
opening all those applications and reading allthose applications of all those people that we
remember for the first time. Iremember reading Poe's application like she had a
self portrait as her photo for herapplication. I remember reading Chris Badenock's application,
I remember reading Julie's application because theystood out even then, and I

(07:42):
don't think they even probably no onereally knew what we were doing, and
we didn't know exactly what we werelooking for, but there was just something
about those people, and you know, you just I felt it, and
you know we felt it when wemet them. Yeah, and then Australia
felt it when we watched them workat work talking about these people the next

(08:03):
day. I know, it's crazyand it's so cool that these shows have
this huge flow on effect. Imean, I was working. I was
like a semi employed actor around themid nineties to the early two thousands,
and I was doing all kinds ofgigs in between acting gigs, and I
think, you know, when Masterschef, I was probably yeah, yeah,

(08:26):
I was doing some radio, surewhat else I was doing. But I
love it how these shows becoming entrenchedin a part of our lives. And
water cooler talk. I think that'sthe measure of it. When a show
is really touched on something, right, when people are talking about it at
the office the next day and everyone'sgot an opinion. I agree. I
mean, look, you know,it's funny because I guess is the water

(08:46):
cooler now X and Instagram? Maybethe thing still is is it's one thing
to be talking about this stuff,you know, in an electronic medium and
whatever, and like times have trainedso much in ten years, but I
still think and agree wholeheartedly that whenpeople are interacting and talking about it,
like the best anecdote that I havein terms of how much that changed popular

(09:09):
culture at the time, and that'struly what I'm most proud of is that
it gave little people that are introvertedlike me a voice because I saw a
lot of myself and a lot ofthose people. It gave him a voice,
and it also just delivered to popularculture food culture that really was in

(09:30):
a different space then. And Iremember one of the places I contacted really
early on to help get the wordout for the show was there in his
as a Victoria they call the essentialIngredient, and essentially they're like a shot
where foodies go to buy cake pansand silicon things and stuff. And anyway,
I spoke to a guy from thehead office. It was a general

(09:52):
management marketing or whatever, and hesaid, yeah, I'm happy to put
it in a DM mail out foryou guys, which is super kind of
him. And he didn't aging chargeyou, said, I was just good
to share that it's good information,good news for people it might be interested.
And I said, yeah, cool, look, thank you so much,
and came out of next year andI called him and asked him if
you do the same thing for me, and he said, you don't need
my help and haha, And Isaid, well, yeah, maybe not,

(10:15):
but I mean we want to makesure we're still talking to the right
people and whatever. And he said, well, he said, do you
know what your show did to ourstores, and for a second in my
heart just like dropped and I thought, oh, what what happened? And
he said, our sales rub overtwenty percent over the year. He said,
we had the manufacturer of the Krockenbushmold in Italy, which we have

(10:43):
four on back order. We don'thave like eighty four on back order.
And it was this crazy story wherethat it changed that that retail business,
like fundamentally changed that retail business.And that's crazy when you start realizing that's
how much changed, like that knockon effect. You know, it changed

(11:03):
lots of things for lots of people, and I reckon, you know,
a lot of that is still influentialnow. I mean, like, you
know, you look at people likeJustine Schofield, who was also Series one.
I think I remember. I rememberher application as well. She's in
the Inner West, I'm pretty certainI remember. I mean, like looking
at her now and going like,well, she's been she's been doing every

(11:24):
Day Gourmet on Channel ten in theafternoons and they've made over a thousand episodes
of that. I mean, likeshe's been on I'm a celebrity. You
know, you'd be hard pressed,I think to find anyone you know who
probably watches, you know, casuallywatches shows are that everyone would know who
she is. You know, AdamLau, I mean, like everyone knows
Adam sbs is Darling. I mean, you know he applied when he was

(11:46):
living in Japan, still was alawyer. And you know, it's just
crazy to see where these people havegone. It's amazing, and that's what
I'm proud of. But I mean, that's store, that's the one that
you heard about and that you know, the big countless others that you just
didn't didn't hear about it at all. And affecting popular culture. I mean,
that's that's a that's a huge badgeof honor that you've got that you

(12:09):
actually have been involved in that.And I think back to the shows that
I was watching growing up. SoI'm watching I'm watching Young Talent Time with
the family. Probably show't my agea little? That's fine, And and
I'm saying, I'm saying to mygrandma while we're watching it, like I
want to do that. I wantto be on Telly. I want to
be on and Young Talent Time seemlike it, you know, we'd all

(12:30):
gather to watch. Hey, hey, it's Saturday, it's a knockout.
These are the types of shows,and then ah and then game shows.
Of course we'd be watching Supermarket Sweep. I love that. As a kid,
I was just watching people go crazyin a supermarket. We need that
back and we've got to talk tosomeone about that also, like our Sale
of the Century as it was calledback in the day. But what were

(12:50):
you watching growing up? What showsaffected you? It's funny you mentioned Supermarket
Sweep, because that is something thatI mean, maybe it was just bourbon
family thing, but I know itwas something. It was always on.
Look. I remember, I rememberloving Neighbors Weirdly, I really didn't love

(13:11):
Peter Russell Clark and I love andI loved Gabrielle Gatta as well, like
always loved the food shows. Idon't know, he's like watching just a
lot of the movies like too.Like I mean, I know it sounds
tacky again showing my age, butyou know, you ten in that era,
like young Talent time on a Sundaynight, they'd have Benny Hill Show,

(13:33):
which is so inappropriate today it justwouldn't even be on the air,
but it was so it was sowrong. It was like this like you
know, Illicit Fruit that I hadto watch and you know managed to sneak
moments of seeing that when I wasa kid. That was like to a
matter off. But then you know, Bill Collins had always had like a
movie after that, So this isprobably like mid eighties, I guess.

(13:56):
Yeah, I hate Saturday. Imean, like that was huge, like
that, God, what else?No one's ever asked me what I like?
You know, it also used tolike used to scare the but Jesus
Adam when I was a kid wasunsolved mysteries, oh, a current affair
and air as a kid, hardcopy? What about hard copy? Do
you remember hard copy? Hard copy? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(14:18):
it was really traumatic music at thestart. Yeah, it was like
a short lived like it was essentiallyas Crime Stoppers, but it was like
a short lived kind of like crimestopping type magazine soul show. I remember
that. Oh the Late Show andlike fast forward, like loved The Late
Really did you ever go on theother side of the camera. Have you
ever been a contestant on anything orasked to be an extra just as a

(14:41):
filling or something like that. No? Did you never have interest in that?
No? No, not at all. Not at all. Really,
I hadn't said I'm pretty interftred,I'm not the guy to be in front
of camera. I mean. Theweird thing is is doing this job has
probably made me much more confident inwho I am and confident in being able
to help some deliver a piece tocamera or talk nice and succinctly. I

(15:01):
mean, I did radio as akid, so when so I worked in
community radio from the age of sixteento twenty two. I had a radio
show and that was just in communityradio, and so yeah, I started
doing that when I was sixteen,and that really helped me get over a
fear of public speaking, I guessto some degree because I was speaking to

(15:24):
thousands of people but they couldn't seeme, so that that really helped.
And I also studded when I wasa kid too, and I hung on
to that through my teen years andthat probably really helped helped me move on
from that, you know. Andit's funny because years and years later,
I met lots of call people throughradio, and even though it was just
community stuff, and you know,interviewed lots of cool bands from here and

(15:46):
overseas and met lots of call people. But I never really thought anyone was
really listening, apart from these faithlesspeople that I didn't probably know, and
they'd call up every week and requesta song or whatever. But then I
bumped into this guy that I wentto school with who was a couple of
years older than me, and hewas like a cool guy from school,
and he's about ten or six yearsago, and he said, oh,
man, we all used to listento you on a Saturday night. Blah

(16:07):
blah blah. I don't think,Oh my god. Really, I had
no idea anyone listened, but Iguess everyone was too embarrassed or too shy
to say something. So I justkind of did this thing. You do
lose that. I guess that thatperception of it, that anyone's that anyone's
watching this, And I didn't careit and even said whatever I wanted to
say, Yeah, there was noakima for you to worry about. Goodness

(16:32):
me that it was. I mean, look, you know, I was
eight o'clock to ten o'clock on aSaturday night. So I did say a
couple of things that ended up gettingme in troubles. It's like a little
bit comfortable in the role. Idid push things a little bit, but
a shock jock, oh, Icall a shock job, but I said
probably a few, a few snarkyor a few probably inappropriate things. But
that's been a kid as well.But I dearly loved it, and I

(16:55):
love the immediacy of radio, andI think it's immensely vital and will never
go away, I don't think,because it's so important people need to hear
things immediately and it's delivered in away that can't really be done still today
there's only one way to do it, and that's really live TV or radio,
and radio is what is going toalways permeate far more than what TV

(17:15):
ever can I think. So whatgot you into being being involved in casting?
Then, Kirsty did so? Lookso Kersey worked worked a way up,
started with Channel nine and worked throughvarious roles as you do, and
over the years, and we met. We met in two thousand and three,

(17:41):
I think it was, and Iwas working in advertising, So I
worked in advertising in production and creativeservices roles and so similar in a lot
of ways to media, but kindof with a different perspective. And you
know, we obviously had a lotin common. Really hit it off quite
quickly and I was really I wasreally intrigued with what Curse did because she

(18:03):
was a producer then and and itwas that one of the first jobs that
she did that you know, we'vebeen together for a few months and a
guy that was ep in the showthat she was working on came out from
the US and he ep'd the showoverseas and came out to do in Australia.
And he's really lovely. He didn'tknow anyone, so he hung out

(18:26):
with us quite a bit. Andyou know, Jeff said to Curse you
on one night. He said,well, you know you're the casting director
and she said, no, I'mjust like the production coordinator. He said,
no, no, he said,in the US, you'd be a
casting director. And and we hadno idea because TV hadn't quite gotten that
far in Australia and that reality stuff, you know, the social experiment was

(18:48):
used quite a bit instead of realityTV as a flowers and it was still
an efficiency. You know, it'sstill it was a fly in the wall
documentary that was what it was calledto. And you know, Kurston working
all those shows and she just tookon finding the people and that's what it
was like. I was like,oh, well, can you just find
the people for the show. Soshe did that along with other things,
and then we realized it's actually calledcasting because you know, you can do

(19:11):
casting for reality show, it's notjust for scripted So that was kind of
the start. Yeah, and that'swhen you know, we decided in two
thousand and five. There's a coupleof years there that she was, you
know, going from gig to gig, and then we thought, well,
why don't we just because then thedate still calling it a cast one thousand
hasn't really changed the call fact thatwe both just contract contract out, and

(19:33):
you know, for a while there, you know, there was a little
bit of power in the two ofus working together, and you know,
we had a couple of people workingwith us. But those days of doing
those sorts of shows being outsourced,that doesn't happen anymore. Those shows are
all cast in house. But weboth essentially just moonlight from gig to gig,
and that's kind of you know,how it's developed, I suppose.

(19:56):
So I mean, how does itHow does it cast agent then get get
paid. Is it a thing likeper contestant that they find? Is it
just like a contract thing like you'repart of the production team and there's like
a set amount set out in thecontract for casting. How does how does
that work? Yeah, look,you know it's the first things. First
of us say that the phrase castingagent probably isn't the most accurate phrase to

(20:21):
use because sometimes it tricks people hearin that phrase. It's remember you've always
got like a talent agent and youhave and you have a casting director or
you have it or you have acasting manager. So because agents suggests that
you that you represent someone, anda casting director can never represent someone because
the casting director has to be neutral. So our job is to take in

(20:42):
everything that we can find in termsof people and present them and be able
to you know, and present themin such a way that we've curated what
we think is best. So look, you know, that would always be
our role, and sometimes it wouldmean that we do approach you know,
people that might manage other people absolutely, but you know, often for reality

(21:04):
and factual stuff, you know,you're just putting the word out there to
the general public and people respond.In terms of how it sort of works.
The way that it always worked forus when we're working on major productions
is that there would be usually abudget set aside for the casting process,

(21:26):
and we would see how close wecan get to try and to charge a
weekly rate to fit with that.Usually it wouldn't work, so you know,
we would compromise to make it worka little bit. But look,
that's just nature of the beast.Look, it's going to be honest.
I mean, looking at unless wehad work back to back, it's a

(21:47):
really hard way to make ongoing regularincome. And as it is at the
moment, even looking now, Imean I'm not working at the moment technically,
so you know, I'm chatting toa couple of people. But you
know, I don't think that evergoes away. In TV, you know,
there's always that bit of sporadic work, you know, and with that
definitely comes a bit of anxiety.That's the hard part is holding your nerve

(22:11):
because sometimes it can be tough andyou start to think shit, like,
you know, have I done somethingwrong or something like that. But often
it's just budgets are much shorter,that's smaller than what they used to be.
Media is so much more fragmented,so you know, the way things
are done, you know, ithas changed so much, and we just

(22:33):
don't have the time. You know, often clients that we used to have
years ago, that Louis to dolots of casting for, they just got
to a point where they said,we just can't afford to have casting people
anymore. It's like okay, andthen we're going to call about three or
four weeks out from them about thestart saying can you help us, And

(22:56):
at that point you can't. Imean, it's too late because like anything
in life, you know, it'stime, quality, price, choose any
too. You can't have all three. If you want great people and you
know you want to spend not asmuch on us, you're going to need
to give us some time, youknow what I mean. Like it's those
sorts of things. So trying tojuggle that is always a little bit tricky.

(23:18):
Often nowadays within the major production companies, you've got producers that can cast
as well, and you know,a lot of them do a fantastic job.
I think it can always be donebetter. But I mean, I'm
going to say that because I've gotI've got the perspective of really wanting to
be mindful of doing the best buyby the people that apply for shows.

(23:40):
I think it's really important because youdon't want to burn people and let people
have a bad experience because they haven'tgotten on a show. Because the fact
is that, as you know,like casting is a big puzzle and you're
trying to fit a lot of piecestogether, and sometimes it's a puzzle where
someone's taking the freaking lid. Soyou try to put those pieces together and
you don't know the picture right,love this metaphor, and there might be

(24:03):
people that you see that you thinkare bloody fantastic, but they just it's
just not going to work for whateverreason. And you know, it's it's
really really important that when you applyfor shows that you don't take it personally.
Again, very similar to you know, anything dramatic. You know,
if you're going to go to doa read for a part, it's not

(24:27):
just you, it's all the otherparts of the puzzle and how that fits
together. Is it going to beright for the production? And obviously,
you know, everyone's human, everyonegets it wrong. I mean I can
tell you just about every show I'veworked on, there's people that I've wanted
on the show that haven't gotten onit. Absolutely no doubt. I was
curious. Everyone's got an opinion everyone'sgot an opinion, you know, are

(24:48):
there ever, like there would haveto be some moments there amongst the casting
team that you're you're fighting hard forsomeone and other people are fighting hard for
someone else to have that slot,right, yep, absolutely, yep.
And it just comes down to whatdoes it come down to, um knowing
your place to be fair because atthe end of the day, my take

(25:12):
on it is, you know,not that it's controversial, but apart from
the fact that as a casting director, I can merely consult, that's all
I can do. I can consultand suggest, but I think is going
to work best? Dynamic lend yourexperience to the thing. Yeah, totally
totally. But you know what,everyone else has had different experiences too,
and I'm human. I'm not goingto be right all the time, and

(25:34):
other people will sometimes sugges saying different. I think, fuck, you know
what, that's actually a really goodidea. And it's part of not having
that big enough ego that you thinkyou're right all the time. There's people
you work with in TV that feelthat way, and sometimes you just have
to let them have their own wayto save yourself, but also just to

(25:55):
make sure that you keep the peacebecause part of an ensemble cast for TV
show is that you're not wanting towrite on any one person. Now I
think about it. You know,that's what an ensemble is. You know,
it's thee in all the parts.So you know what, if you
don't get one or two through,it should be okay because you've got the
structure of a great format and agreat game, a great game play whatever

(26:17):
the show is going to be,and you've got these other characters, so
it should be okay. But youknow, you may be looking hindsight and
go, oh, jeez, wouldbe nice if there was just a little
bit more of this or something.But it is what it is, and
it plays out how it does.And the fact is that as you know,
you don't know how these shows aregoing to play out, we're all
having a guess. We're all usingour experience. So and Big Brother is

(26:42):
a classic example of that, becausepeople are so keen to be on a
show like that for whatever reason itis. It's something that just really captures
people's imagination. They want to beon Big Brother. And you'll meet people
that want to be on Big Brotherat casting tours and we did, and
you know, it's a massive turnoff when people say, oh my god,

(27:02):
like I've just wanted to be onlike, you know, Big Brother
for years. It's like, mydream is to be on Big Brother.
That immediately would freak me out becauseyou're only it's really really hard, you
know, like you can't just thinkyou're going to be on this show and
it's going to be awesome and Iknow exactly what's going to happen, and
I'm going to be this personal.You just don't know. And there's many

(27:23):
examples that I can think of peoplethat have ended up on that show where
that they ended up on the show, it's almost like they were deer in
headlights and the time they got inthe show, so it's almost like they
knew what to do to get intothe interview and you know, and get
past that audition stage. But whenthe reality hit of this is what it
is, they maybe shrunk back alittle bit or whatever. And I get

(27:45):
that. You know, it's hardto be yourself because after a while,
a show and a format develops itsown sort of people that apply for it,
you know what I mean. Soit's sort of the tailor selection bias
there, right, Oh the wagwhat is it the tail wags the dog
that's saying yeah, I think so, yeah, yeah. So it's kind

(28:07):
of a bit in reverse, youknow what I mean. So it's like
someone will come on to a BigBrother audition and they're coming on to be
you know, the big you know, the guy who's going to be like
the big alpha dude blah blah blahor whatever. But he might be putting
on a bit of that bravado tobe that guy. And I appreciate maybe
trying to find who you are inthat audition process and show us that,

(28:33):
but if you're not that person,you'll probably get caught out. I know
with Big Brother, there were definitelysome that got through that worn't quite that
person. And I know in thosecouple of years of Master Chef too,
now I think about it, therewere one or two people that got through
that Master Chef audition process because becausewe used to say audition process a couple
of times over because it worked,so people knew what they needed to do

(28:56):
for that audition process and they gotthrough that. But then have in the
ability to be able to think onyour feet and think outside the box and
do different things. Are you goingto be able to do that or have
you just nailed three dishes that youneed to do for your audition and you've
got a great, wonderful, engagingpersonality. Everyone's gone, oh my god,
she's great. And then when itcomes to the show, the moment

(29:18):
the first box comes off, thefirst challenge, she wigs out because she's
never seen search and before you knowwhat I mean, Like it's and that's
sometimes good from a producer's perspective,I get, but you want people that
are able to deliver as well.So yeah, it's a tough one.
It's a tough one, you know, because I think the way that you
present yourself and your brand for aTV show is so immensely important. You

(29:42):
know, like you need to presentthe best version of you, and it's
sometimes going a little bit within toknow who you are and be comfortable in
that. You know, and foryounger people, I can imagine, and
I know for myself, as Isaid, you know, like I struggled
a little bit with stuttering, sayfor example or whatever. It was,

(30:02):
so like, you know, Iwasn't a confident guy. You know,
I wouldn't I wouldn't want to putmyself out there or whatever. But you
need to find who you are andthat's and that's and that's defining, defining
that personnelity and defining that that bitof brand that you have that you're very
comfortable playing within. You have toyou have to get hold of that and
you know, just play to thatstrength and that's your USP. That's your

(30:25):
unique selling proposition. And the wayI look at that is that you use
that. We all use those thingsevery day in our life, but we're
maybe not necessarily conscious of it.But making ourselves conscious of that USP,
our core USP as to who weare, that's a really useful thing.
And it's not just for TV,it's just everyday life. You know.
It's how you present yourself and withwhatever job you're doing, play your strengths.

(30:49):
Really, that's that's the core,that's the core message. Because at
the end of the day, aswe said, there's going to be pieces
of the puzzle that are from allover the floor. They are going to
come together. That's somehow going towork and you know, you might just
beat that piece of the puzzle theygo, you know what that person works.
So like I always encourage anyone whohas an interest in a show to

(31:12):
apply because you never know what they'relooking for, and it might be casting
directors are pretty and TV producers andcast directors, anyone who works in TV
is very mindful of trying to presenta really balanced cast. And it may
very well be that they get tothe end of casting and they're presented to

(31:34):
a network. There's a bunch offaces and names up on a board and
they realize, you know what,we really haven't nailed a great bloke in
his fifties or something like it,you know, and that might be you.
So you might not be on thefirst pass of the audition part,
you know process, But then theymight come back and go, well,

(31:56):
shit, they really like this person. The network really likes this person,
this person, this person, orto balance that, we're going to need
this old guy because otherwise it scu'stoo young. So all of a sudden,
boom, you're back to trying toplug a little gap, you know
what I mean. It's like that. It's like painting a picture and then
you're going back and you're just andyou're just you know, touching up and
making sure things are right. It'svery very important, you know, because

(32:19):
I think at the end of theday, with the cast as I said,
you want the cast to resonate withpeople at home. You want someone
that someone says, you know,that's me, or that that's my mom.
You know, you want people tobe able to really connect with that
individual because that's what makes you wantto you know, cheer them on and
you see a bit of yourself inthem. That's that's what you want.

(32:42):
And TV shows want to be everythingto everyone. They can't be, but
they try to. See when Idid when I did Big Brother, I
was taken aback when I came out, and people in the public were so
emotionally invested in it, so Ihad no idea that people got that people.
There was people who loved some ofus genuinely loved and say some genuinely

(33:09):
hated other people in the house,and and then there was just some some
very strange people. Once in fanmails, someone sent me their plat,
an entire plat of hair, likeall of their hair, with this creepy
note saying, I want you tohave a part of me. And it
was very Yeah, that was thatwas one of the strange things that happened.

(33:31):
But that is a pretty cool story. Yeah, and oh look there,
I I've got a hundred of thosekind of stories, and that's like
that being in the show is likesuper interesting. But then when you come
out of it and you start engagingwith everyone in the world, then that's

(33:52):
just a new level of a weirdand fantastic and amazing and terrible all at
once. It's a bit of everything. When you're casting people for a show,
Graham, are you casting everyone asa potential winner? Or are you
casting people that you know can't winthis and they're just there because they're going

(34:13):
to make good TV as they lose. Look, you know, it's it's
difficult because you know, as Isaid, you're always compromised when you're when
you do a job like this,you know it's never going to be genuinely
your decision. I always like tothink that anyone you put forward for the

(34:36):
show, it's a Stephen Brady moment. Everyone should be able to have a
decent crack at it. There reallyshould be and anyone who would argue against
that, And I'm not trying toI'm not trying to defend my I'm very
very happy with my with my consciencein terms of who I put forward for
shows. But I can see howthat people people will look and go,
oh my god, while they putthat guy in or whatever. It's so

(35:00):
sometimes the quiet ones, the onesthat don't seem that seem least likely,
that just fly under the radar.It happened every year with Big Brother,
happened every year just about because that'swhere it happened. That's a show that
relies upon votes for people to stayand go. The loud ones are usually
the ones that get voted out,and that's the and the producers are going,

(35:21):
oh shit, no, because they'rethe ones getting all the content.
So look, I would always sayno because I like to see people that
resonate with me. I like tosee people that you maybe think far out,
man, are they really going toget there? And you really want
to back them and you really wantto see them go forward. I love

(35:42):
that. I mean, I knowdefinitely. You know when you look at
formats that and they usually tend tobe quite old formats mind you, but
like older style shows, like youknow, like like a talent series like
Got Talent or you know, Idleand things like that. Yeah, definitely,
I mean, you know, thereshows, whether there's entertainment at every

(36:05):
end of the scale, there's gonnabe people that are gonna be great.
There's gonna be people that think they'regreat, there's gonna be people that aren't
as great as what they think,and there's gonna be people in the middle.
You're gonna you're going to see everyone, and then in the edit you're
going to see the best and worst. Definitely in those sorts of shows,
there's there's that element, without adoubt, But I think that just tends
to be also the way that anythinganything I think that's reproduced or recorded or

(36:28):
whatever, you know, you tendto push to extremes, you know what
I mean. So like, youknow, if you're recording an album,
you're probably gonna pop the vocals alittle bit louder and whatever. When you
look at things like TV be itexplained me saying you don't like someone,
you love them, if you don'tfeeling different to them, you probably hate
them. You know, like you'retrying to push to more extremes. And
it's because that things get lost,or they get a bit wishy washy,

(36:49):
or they're just a bit beige ifthey sort of sit in the middle.
And I agree, And even ifyou think you don't feel that way,
I guarantee you. Everyone does.You know, there'll be people you love
and be people that you don't like. That's what happens. But within any
ensemble cast, there's going to bepeople that you're going to go, I
like that person, I don't reallylike that person so much. This just
as me. People will say,well, but I like that person and

(37:13):
I don't like that person so much. You know, everyone has their own
opinion. You're going to get peoplethat love you, you get people that
hate you. And I think forpeople who are on a show, you
can't say don't worry about it,because it's huge and you're putting yourself out
there. But the thing I've seenwhen I've done media, and it might
even happen from doing this podcast,I'll have one or two messages of people

(37:37):
saying that was really cool and reallyinsightful and thank you so much, and
then I'll get someone saying I fuckinghate you. So what I've learned to
do is I just don't read thatstuff and I don't take it on board
because at the end of the day, for me, I don't think people
often mean, not even themselves.It's kind of just this gut reaction of

(37:57):
this extreme you know, it's eitherlove you or hate Kirsty and I did
a PR bias when when a castof thousands in our first year and we
were doing doing good and we thoughtthis is really cool, you know,
like who knows what's going to happennext, And I said, look,
let's let's do some publicity because Ilove a little bit of publicity. Working
working in advertising, you know,publicity is great. You know, it's

(38:21):
been really really good for us tomake sure everyone knows who we are.
So we hired a publicist a costus to fortune, and we spent a
month on a retainer for this ladyto help us out. And she was
awesome. This isn't a story ofbashing her at all. It's a story
of tame. She's incredible. Like, we still get phone calls from PR.
We did over ten years ago.We've getting money with we still get

(38:43):
we still got people that read it. And it's so what she did is
that she got us a bunch ofinterviews with you know, a couple of
TV blogs at the time and stuff. And we did an interview with The
Australian and the media section and Kirstyended up doing a what is it with
Richard Feidler Conversations with Richard Filer onAbel. Yes, Cursey's had quite an

(39:07):
interesting life and that was more abouther life, not so much about TV.
But the interview we did for TheAustralian. We thought it was an
okay interview and the lady who didit with us, the journal, Amanda
Meetch, is lovely and she wasgreat. When it came out on that
Wednesday, we were on the frontpage of the media section of The Australian,
as you imagine, and then thatnewspapers in every office of whatever it

(39:31):
is. I went up online andI remember I went in to look at
it online and there's about two hundredand eighty comments saying these people are scum
blah blah blahh. And I'm thinking, holy shit, Like I don't read
the comments. Phone number you've gotto do is google us. There's my
phone number. You know, thisis where we had an office at Screen

(39:52):
Australia at a time, like itwould be really easy to track us down,
like super easy. And I rememberjust reeking out for a split second.
Then when now you know what,I'm just closing it, and I
closed it and nothing ever came cameof it. Never had anyone contact us
again, no one threatened us directly. It was all this chatter. So

(40:13):
but you see that, and it'shard not to have that moment of going,
oh my god. It's hard,but you have to remember at the
end of the day, even thoughyou are yourself, they don't know the
real you. They're reacting to anedited version of you. They seen the
show. And people often forget,I think when they pass corment on people
saying all that person blah blah.Reality TV. It's a game show.

(40:37):
It's a competitive game. So ifyou're going to go on a competitive game
and be fucking vanilla and like notruffle any feathers and not attempt to win,
why are you there? Stay home, get You'll get bashed because you
didn't. Oh they're too soft,Like you'll never win. So there's no

(40:58):
point. You just don't compete.You just can't. But when you're in
the casting process, there there aresome people on shows that come out universally
as villains, right are you ableto spot them and are you casting them
as villains or do they cast themselvesas villains once they get on there.
Well, I think it's let's behonest, I mean, you know,

(41:21):
we're all adults here, We've allgone through life. There's people you meet
in life that are polarizing. That'sjust life. Everyone you meet is not
going to like you. You're notgoing to like everyone you meet. That
is just life. I'm one personmeeting a bunch of people, and sometimes
you'll meet someone that will go fuckyou know, that person is just really
annoying. But there is something compellingabout them in some way. And that's

(41:45):
why I said before, like whenyou talk about warmth and authenticity, I
still will argue, hand on heart, everyone that you put forward for a
show, they have some degree ofwarmth and they have some authenticity as to
who they are. Authenticity doesn't alwaysmean that authentic, oh my god,
I'm the amazing. It won't bethat wow, they are a little bit

(42:05):
prickly, but you know what,they're true to who they are and if
that's their character, that's their character, and if they're willing to embrace that
on the show, more power tothem for being who they are. There's
definitely I mean, that's the thingthat is the spectrum of life. You
know, you're never going to havenot everyone is going to be super kind
if everyone was super kind and supernice, there'd been a jeopardy, which

(42:27):
is you know what a show is. Every story from the Bible onwards has
jeopardy in it because that's what astory is. If a story was everything
just went good and they lived happilyever after it, it'd be boring.
So there has to be some bumpsin the road. There has to be
some form of conflict, because that'swhat makes a show. But you know

(42:49):
what, that's what a format delivers. That's what a good format delivers those
moments. And you know, Iused to say it's like baking a cake.
I mean because people would often say, oh my god, the cast
is so amazing, that it's notall about the cast. And that's why
I'd never I always feel quite uncomfortabletaking credit for shows that we've worked on

(43:12):
because it's not all about the cast. Like it's great, you've got good
people. But unless there's a reallyrobust format and there's great storytellers that can
pull that story together and make itsuccinct and make it understandable and you can
follow it, that's an art that'san art form, and it's those elements
that come together. So it's likebaking a cake. You know, your

(43:32):
raw ingredients are your characters, andyou're sticking them together and you're mixing it
and you're sticking it in the ovenand hoping you've got it right. But
you'll get better over time. Thosetwo parts, the narrative, the format
and the way that you produce theshow, match with the people the raw
ingredients. It's those two parts thatmake it. In radio, we'd have
people that we would call prize pigs, and there's people that just do the

(43:57):
rounds of game shows and rack upprizes. When you're casting for a game
show. Is there a limits onpast amount of shows that someone's done?
Can someone have done too many?Should they wear a fake mustache and use
a different name. It's funny.I was only talking to someone about this
the other day. It's funny becausekirst and I used to call people that

(44:19):
applied for shows numerous times. Youused to call them serial offenders. But
that was when there was the luxuryof the fact that the formats were still
new and people hadn't applied for showsbefore. So if someone had been on
a show before, you're kind ofgoing, oh my god, you've already
been on a show. We don'twant to see you. But the fact
is is that that's not the waywe have one game shows. They're a

(44:39):
little bit different. I'll put themthe one side for a minute, but
I think the wheels have turned inthe fact that there's so many shows right
we need to see, you know, fresh faces as much as possible.
We don't always have that luxury ofhaving people. And the fact is is
that if there's someone who's been onthe show before that has a persona that's

(45:00):
maybe evolved from that show, morethan likely evolved from that show, they
may fit really well into another show. That's just the way the formats and
you know, TV has evolved.So yes, they've gone from being serial
offenders into oh yeah, they areon Love Island last year. Definitely,
definitely, But you know what,those people are going to be characters that

(45:21):
people are going to be drawn towanting to watch as well. And that's
something that as a network and broadcasteryou always wanted to make sure that people
are going to be enticed enough towant to watch your show. And if
it's because they recognize someone, that'san awesome thing. And if from a
production side, if it means thatas a producer. You know that this
person is going to be able togive you what you need on the show.

(45:44):
A little bit of that sometimes reallyhelps, really really helps. So
there's not an issue with that,I don't think from a game shape perspective.
I mean, I think that's probablybeen a little bit of a It's
something that's kind of always bucked thetread in and I think there's always been
people that have done my ultiple gameshows, like you know, say to
the Century, there was you know, the dude did a couple of years

(46:04):
ago and he comes back and blahblah blah. I would always put it
put it this way, right,is that, as I said at the
end of the day, with ashow like hot Seat, if you want
to be on not that you canbe on that anymore, but if you
want to be on, if youwant to be on a game show where
there's a high volume of people.Game shows are usually shot in a city,
right, They're usually shot on abudget in front of a studio audience

(46:27):
in Sydney or Melbourne, let's behonest. So if you're from Sidney or
Melbourne and you want to be onthat show, if you apply and you
do a half decent application. Iwould imagine you'd probably get a guernsey at
some point because the volume of peoplethat are required for those shows is big.
Let's be honest, it's big.And the turnstyle is quite quick too.
It might be only a day's commitment, so you know, your threshold

(46:51):
of what you need to put inis pretty low. I reckon it's not
that much of an issue. Andthat's why that you do see people that
have appeared on other game shows,and definitely people love game shows, and
we like Tipping Point. When Ihad that on Facebook while ago, I
wasn't casting it, but I putit out for endom Ale and the amount
of comments and shares and stuff Igot on that was humongous. And people

(47:15):
love that show. You know,I dearly loved that show. I had
no idea, but people love gameshows, love them they do. There's
a reason why they're a perennial.Yeah, that's the reason why they've been
around forever forever. They're probably thefirst reality show in a lot of ways
because they are everyday people playing themselves. They're not a character. This is

(47:36):
Joan from Blah. Betty from Blacktownis the classic name that our network's always
refer to. But you know,here is Betty from Blacktown. She's about
to do a run on Supermarket Sweep. She just guessed that Craft singles were
three dollars twenty four and she's,Oh, that brings back some memories.
Manam at the TV. Get themnappies. They're the most expensive. So

(47:58):
my thing, right is with withwith suid Market Sweet? You mentioned Supermarket
Sweet. I've always thought if anyonewas going to do a reality show today
for groceries and you know, aretail store like that, it should be
Aldi, and it should be likegrocery scanning and like stacking. So it's

(48:21):
almost like tetris, right, butyou have to fill a trolley in a
certain amount of time and you're workingwith it. Maybe you're in teams and
one person scans one packs. Idon't know, but there has to be
something with that, because I stilllaugh every time I go to Aldi and
the dude is shoving stuff through withno care whatsoever, and you're having it's
like being a goalie in ice hockeyand you're having like things of cat food.

(48:45):
And I remember reading the line oncesaying if you touch the hand of
the girls seven year at Aldi,does that mean you have to marry it,
which I thought was really funny becausethere's this whole awkward thing where you're
like you almost sometimes touch people andyou're taking the stuff off the minutes.
Super awkward, But I reckon Alitimight be might be right for some sort
of supermarket TV show. They absolutelyneed to do that in the middle miracle

(49:09):
aisle. That has to be involvedsomehow. That the Miracle Aisle was just
the random stuff. Oh yeah.And they do love a creative, creative
campaign and I do. And soyou're sort of saying you're taking it more
from the perspective of the people workingin the supermarket. And I think a
thousand years ago, I worked incoals and we were doing it. Was

(49:32):
it to I think it was fiftyfive cartons an hour, that's what we
were told we had to put onthe shelf. And so you would just
get those boxes and just run andjust rip them open, try and get
that stuff crammed in because you hadless than a minute per box. And
it was intense and it was aworkout. And now when I go to
the supermarkets, I see kids meanderingaround like they've don't have a care in

(49:53):
the world. Having's empty, what'sgoing on? Where's the people that are
put It's like I got absolutely floggedwhen I was working in supermarkets. Well,
maybe maybe there's this, it's howI love these conversations. Maybe there's
a factual documentary series in a supermarket. There was many years ago in the

(50:14):
UK. There's one called Iceland whichwas based on the and the Frozen the
frozen food supermarket called Iceland, whichironically enough, yeah named nice. But
yeah, maybe there's a show inMaybe there's a show in just a a
store. Who knows the scripted seriesthat I dearly loved from Sky a few
years ago in the UK. Whatwas that called? I can't remember it's

(50:37):
called now but yeah that was Englishbut love a good English comedy. So
yes, but maybe there is maybethere's something in that. Maybe there's something
in that. I think I thinkElder needs to get tongued in contact with
you, because that would be hugefor them to have their own show in
their own time slot, own ownertime slot. That is way better than
an ad, totally totally, andthey nail their ads, as you said,

(51:00):
they're awesome, they're bold and reverent. They fit that nice mold.
So yeah, maybe they should takethe next step and we have competitive competitive
shopping and scanning. Even if itwas part of let's say a subsection of
the Biggest Loser. You put themin a supermarket and they've got a stack
fifty five cartons an hour, don'tbreak the stock, get it into the

(51:22):
shelf, and you're getting your stockput out plus and your people are probably
paying you to do it. Right. Yeah, yeah, I love it
perfect. In one of your videosthat I was watching, you said that
there are two main types of showsreality shows, that you can divide them
into situational based and skill based.Can you tell me what's the difference between

(51:45):
those? Mind you, this isnot this is reality TV University. There's
nowhere to go to learn this stuff. And I don't know where there isn't
right or wrong. I'm just makingthis up. But this is just our
experience over time. What I've learnedis that I think there's a real distinction
betwe between that and it really onlyoccurred to me a few years ago.
Is it going through doing these shows? Because some shows you do and this

(52:05):
is the thing, people often thinkthat casting shows is really easy. You're
trying to find people to be onthe TV shows easy. It's not.
It's right, It's not easy atall. And you need to be I
think you've got to You've got tohave a really great ability to be able
to talk and engage and speak withpeople. And I never want to force
people, or I can't force people, but you don't what I feel like

(52:28):
you're telling people the wrong thing tomake them apply for a show or be
on to show whatever. You can'tdo that. People have to make informed
decisions, but you need to beopen about that. But what I've found
is that you know, and itwas one of those times when you're casting
Shaw going this show, it's superhard to cast this show. This is
really hard. And then I realizedit dawned on me. It wasn't because

(52:52):
what it was is that it wasbecause the the what it was that we
were relying upon. The format wasrelying upon a situation, and it was
relying upon a point in time inscience life. And that's hard because you
look at that and you say,right, so if you're single, right,
and I'm looking for single people,I'm looking for single people that just

(53:15):
at that moment of time and I'masking them, are they single? Happen
to be single for a start,so you're going from like this massive funnel
filter filter filter filter, that's reallyreally hard, so that situational. So
a situational show for me is adating show, any sort of relationships based

(53:35):
show. Really they're very very trickybecause it's relying upon a situation. It's
right on. People will want toapply for a show. It might be,
you know, a renovation show somethinglike that, where that you may
not necessarily have the skills, butyou know you were required you know,
you're looking to do a renovation orsomething like that. A skill based show
is different because you're not just relyingupon your personality and the situation. You're

(54:00):
relying upon a skill set that youhave too, and that skill set helps
bolster that personality. And a greatexample obviously of that is something like Master
Chef. There's a million versions inbetween, Like I mean, there's definitely
you know, and shows cast adifferent way. So with My Kitchen Rules
seven really like very pop characters andyou know, really very clearly definable people

(54:27):
on their shows. There was goodiesand baddies. Absolutely that's what they want.
It makes it really really easy foran audience to understand someone in you
know, in an instant and Ican absolutely appreciate that, you know,
but that means sometimes too, thatsort of shelters you from needing to have
someone with with an awesome with withskill sets, say, for example,

(54:47):
Mike My Kitchen Rules versus Master Chef. Guys at m K are obviously don't
have the same skill level as youknow as h on my mi Keechen Rules,
don't have the same skill set asMaster Chef. Know that they're home
cooks, that's the good. Yeah, absolutely, but they've found that little
bit of usp that they then needto try to find people to fit.

(55:07):
But they're really entertaining to watch,you know, and that's the thing you're
trying to find, that little definedbit. But yeah, skills, you
know, if you're a great dancer, if you can, if you can
you know, design clothes, ifit's project Runway, if you're a makeup
artist and it's glow up or whateverit happens to be, having a skill

(55:29):
you know, really puts that showin a particular sort of space. And
I think situational is different and alot more interpretive, you know what I
mean. So like you know,you'll be doing different things and you can't
rely upon a skill. You know, if you're on maths, it doesn't
help you that you're a really goodcook, or that you're a pt or
whatever. You've got to navigate differentsituations and scenarios you're placed in and how

(55:53):
you react as an individual. That'shard. So those shows are much harder
to cast for without a doubt.I think in my opinion, Well,
I feel like Biggest Loser almost fitsboth categories. Right. It's a moment
in someone's life when their weight mightbe out of control, and then it's
the skill of losing that weight.I mean, that's an ability of sorts,

(56:16):
right, So where would you classifythat, Well, they don't have
the skill that, Yeah, they'relearning the skill, that's true. That's
the Yeah, they're learning it.They're learning the skill. That's what our
experts are. They're there to dois to take them on the journey of
them learning that skill. That's thedifference. That's that's what you're looking for.
So that situation a situational based show. And I hate that word journey

(56:40):
as much as everyone else, butit is. It's a journey that you
go on from the beginning of ashow to the end that is the journey,
so you are learning, this isthe process you are learning. That's
that's where I place that show.And that's a really great example of a
situational reality show in my opinion.And again another one for a couple of

(57:01):
seasons there. Yes, we hadlots of applications for it, and then
you get none and then you lookat it and go right, okay,
so let's look at the Australian Bureauof Statistics. Well, another great one
for another situational one, A goodone I can give you, which is
a good real life version, Acouple of real life show. A couple
of years ago, I did thecasting for Team Mum Australia for MTV,

(57:23):
great local production company WTF, andthey asked me to cast for them on
the show. They're good people.It's gonna be a really great factual series.
You know, it's got all thosegreat moments. You know, it's
a really great sort of pop showand people love it in the US and
the UK. They're doing an Australianversion and I looked at it and looked

(57:45):
at the brief and just went,oh man, this is going to be
so hard, and I'll put itto you in these terms. If you
look up the Australian Bureau of Bureauof Statistics, which is what I did
for this show just to give myselfa bit of an idea as to what
I was aiming for. We're avery very very different country in Australia,
so we have birth control that wehave many care right so kids having babies

(58:07):
in their teens by virtue, justthat alone is far less than in other
countries. But you look at theABS statistics and children born to parents in
their teens was something like zero pointsix percent of all births in Australia.
So I look at that and yougo like, oh my god. So

(58:29):
I'm literally trying to find like Ican't remember what it was, but it's
like the three thy four hundred peoplein Australia that are potentially currently pregnant for
this show. So it was somethingas ridiculous as that. And I remember
for the first week or two Iwas freaking out, going how the hell

(58:50):
are we going to find these people? And we did have some support from
the network, which is great,you know, and social media was really
really good and too. Out ofthree people that we had come through came
through social media, one came throughbecause they saw it on MTV. Oh
no, no, no, shesaw it on MTV. But we did
approach her because we found the storyabout her and she was in Victoria and

(59:13):
that was someon of the WTFN thatfound that. And beginning to the end,
I think we probably only interviewed maybeten people and three went on the
show. Wow, usually that wouldbe nowhere near that sort of sort of
percentages. But that was a reallyhard show to find such a needle in

(59:36):
a haystack literally almost not literally figuratively, but it was. It was super
hard. But you know, itwas a really rewarding show, and I
think they did a fantastic job.And I loved the characters on that.
One girl that I really loved,Sita, lived in Western Sydney played n

(59:57):
RLW for Paramatteriels. This is yearsbefore we talking about women's sport. She's
nineteen, she became pregnant with theboyfriend, did a pregnancy test at training,
found out she was pregnant, andwe got to see her navigate that
that time, you know, withher little boy and and her fiance at

(01:00:19):
the time and her family. Shewas specific islander, you know, and
you talk about diversity and you talkabout just great stories. I just loved
her. I still do. She'sjust wonderful and I love those sorts of
stories because she you know she shedoes. She just gave us an opportunity
to see an amazingly strong woman.Yeah, there were some shows you were

(01:00:44):
involved in casting, like Emergency andParamedics and these these type and I guess
situational you're finding people who find themselvesin need of an ambulance or in hospital.
How does the casting work in that? Are you just stalking the hospit
like looking for sick people that area little bit charismatic or is the casting

(01:01:05):
more for the staff than the patients? Casting is more for the staff.
So with Emergency, I spent aweek in Royal Melbourne Hospital again WTFN with
the producers of that too, andagain they are very very skilled at factual
television. They're probably one of thebest in Australia and they're very very good

(01:01:27):
at making this type of TV.And I think everyone loves this kind of
stuff, even if you maybe don't. Maybe if you don't think you love
it, we've all watched it andit is actually quite compelling, and it's
because it has Jeopardy. It's gotgreat jeopardy, you know, and it's
real and it's raw, it's gotall those really wonderful elements. And they
put me up in a service departmentacross the road from Rayal Melbourne Hospital and

(01:01:52):
I spent a week there and threeof those days I spent interviewing staff,
and the a couple of days Ispent just hanging out in ed which was
pretty cool. So you know whatI helped to do in those early stages
the show was commissioned and I helped. I helped them understand a little bit
about the process of how things happenedand the different roles. And obviously they

(01:02:14):
have producers doing that too, butI'm almost an extra. I was an
extra pair of hands there to assistin that process and reporting back and working
with their crab director. But Iwas an interviewing staff as well. And
it's not so much necessarily casting,but it's really been able to well maybe
it is casting. I'm just havinga general chat with lots of different people,
from the orderly and from the securityguard through to the head of trauma

(01:02:38):
surgery or whoever it happened to beat the time, and I'm just getting
to eke out those personalities and ekeout who those people are that are quite
good at being able to chat andspeak and speak on camera and just hold
the conversation and stuff too, becauseagain in a situational based show, whether
you're meeting lots of different people,what's different backgrounds, different industries. Some

(01:02:59):
industry is aren't great talkers, anddoctors are probably one, as you'd say
with like you know bedside manner,the old phrase, you know, he's
got terrible bedside matter. Some doctorsaren't great at articulate and are explaining things.
And you know, obviously with theshow, you know it showed me,
not tell me, but you stillneed to be able to tell me
as well, and we need tosee that. So that was a lot

(01:03:22):
of that process is just trying tounderstand who can speak well, articulate me
and tell a story. You know, it might be you're asking that you
know, tell me about you know, someone that you've treated that's really stayed
with you, and they would justif they're good, they're able to rattle
off and tell you something. Sowhat we then know is that from a
production perspective, say for example,from that you know, those three days,

(01:03:45):
I interviewed sixty people. I thinkit was a super intense few days
of interviewing people like you are.I cannot begin to tell you how exhausting
that is. It's like doing thisbut a little bit more jeopardy because it's
my job, but then doing itfor like ten hours. We're like a
five minute break and eating a reallyshitty sandwich in the middle of it.
But but what you hospital sandwich?You're then looking at You're then looking at

(01:04:11):
all these people that I've got photosof and going, oh, we look,
I met this person. She wasreally interesting. This guy was great,
He was great, And you're justfinding these bits of story and they're
going, Okay, now, isthat enough people that we're going to follow?
Because it's not that we're not goingto follow other people, but we
just know that these ones are probablygoing to be a little bit better at
delivering the story. We obviously couldn't, you know, manipulate what's going to

(01:04:35):
happen in terms of a patient comingthrough the door, because no one knows
what's going to happen. No oneknows who that patient is going to see,
and we don't know what speciality isrequired for that patient. But we
just know that these are people thatwe're probably going to lean towards, wanting
to wanting to shoot a little bitmore with. And that's how that kind
of plays out. I imagine you'resitting around the hospital and then you're sitting

(01:04:58):
by the front door and then you'relike, hang on, a really hot
person with a broken leg showed up. Quick. Let's go mobilize the cameras
and get that quickly. I mean, look, you know the way that
I look at that too, though, is that that's that's a pretty that's
a pretty good sugar hit though.But then as long as there's a good
story to accommodate it, and we'regoing to be able, we've got something
compelling to see through that. Butyes, I mean yeah, you would,

(01:05:19):
of course it would. You know, you shoot everything and you're can
take the best bits of everything youfind. But that might be a B
story or a C story, itmight not be an A story. So
obviously, you know you've got multiplestories running through any show. You know,
it just might be that that mightnot be the biggest story, or
it might be that it is.But that's the beauty of factual that I
really love is that there's the unknowne. You just don't know what's going to

(01:05:42):
come through. And that's hard becausefrom a financial perspective, it's not like
a reality show saying, right,well, we've got people for two weeks
or three months or whatever it is, and this is what we're doing.
You've got a window of shooting.So if you're shooting a show, you
might have twelve weeks, might havesix weeks, have less, and you've
just got to hope that you've gotenough content. And that's always going to

(01:06:03):
be I think the default that welook at whether you're developing a show.
I've worked in that space development aswell. But the key thing you're always
worrying about is we gonna have enoughcontent here. That's the key thing.
Because you could do a show aboutI don't know what you know, surfboard
makers, which is one that Idid actually investigate years ago, but is

(01:06:27):
it really that interesting? Is therereally gonna be enough volume of stuff happening?
Probably not, So it's maybe morelike audience, Yeah, maybe it's
more like that. Maybe it's moreabout the eccentric personality, is not so
much the art or the craft.But yeah, you've got to you've got
to sort of you've got to sortof make sure that you've got enough of
that content. There's enough exciting stuffhappening. I see that lately, along
with cooking shows and renovation shows,there's there's a ton of dating shows casting

(01:06:51):
at the moment. Do you seethings come in waves and in trends in
your experience? I mean, look, you know I always liken it whether
it's right or wrong. But youknow, year nine United Science, I
think it is all whatever sociology orit is doing up like Maslow's hierarchy,
if needs I always look at thatway and go, what was it?

(01:07:11):
It's like food Shelter Love. Wethink of that. I know Wi Fi
now sits above that, but ifyou look at food Shelter Love, it
does almost every show really sort oftends to orbit around these things. And
I get it why, And it'sbecause that it's it's something that we can
all relate to, and that's whatwe we're all trying to make sure that

(01:07:31):
we seek out networks, especially desperatelytrying to seek out is what is it's
really going to resonate with people.And you know, if you're looking at
Food Shelter Love, it's something thatwe all know about, we all have
some interaction with, we all crave, we all need it, you know,
we all need it to survive andthat and that is what makes it
compelling if it's told in the rightway. It's one of those things.

(01:07:56):
Yeah, And for shows, thereseems to be less that calls these days.
Are they a thing of the pastnow in my experience, yes,
yeah, I mean, look,COVID probably put the last name on the
coffin of that. The zoom meetingis probably the default first meeting for a
show nowadays, and that was onlyin the past. That was a skype

(01:08:19):
chat and that was something you're onlyif someone couldn't make it into audition,
and it was pretty rare, youknow, because you always want to see
someone in the flesh. And Istill think that's how you need to cast.
You still really need to see peoplein the flesh. And in most
times you are going to see themin the flesh at some part. If
it's a show that's got a lotof volume of people on the show,

(01:08:40):
maybe you're not going to see themin person, as long as you've got
enough to feel quite confident that youknow what you see is what you're going
to get. But I still thinkyou get a different flavor when you meet
someone in person, but also it'sa different flavor meeting someone on Zoom too,
because the end of the day,this is how we're going to see
you. Is in this interface,we're not going to see you face to

(01:09:00):
face, but you know, seeingsomeone face to face though, it does
enable you to sort of maybe thinkon your feet a little bit more and
all that sort of stuff. Andeven just a simple thing I learned ages
ago from a US casting director isthat if you sit down for an interview,
you're a bit closed, like yourchest is a bit like closed,
and you know, you tend tobe a little bit more whieter and introspective.

(01:09:21):
Right if you stand up, standup, you know, chest out,
shoulders back, and just going torelax into having a chat with someone,
you'll tend to be a little bitmore open and a little bit more
gregarious because it enables you to relaxinto who you are, being able to
stand up and just move a littlebit and not being so restricted. And

(01:09:41):
even something as simple as that canreally help. And sometimes you know,
in the past, when I dointerviews, you'd find that or I might
go and meet someone and then go, you know what, let's let's just
let's just chat a little bit more. Let's go and stand up and move
over here. So I used togo and meet people in at their home
for some different home show I've workedon, and that was sometimes ended up
being saying that I'd end up doing. Is it you meet? You meet

(01:10:03):
some people on the couch and youthink, yeah, this isn't too bad.
They're big enough personality, you know, and I'm getting enough out of
them. And then sometimes let's standup. Let's go and move around and
get them feeling more comfortable. Youknow, we'll show me the space that
you need to renovate, you know, what's wrong with it, and get
people up gesticulate and show me what'shappening. But the cattle call, I

(01:10:25):
think it's gone. I think it'sgone. You know, shows like Big
Brother were you know, synonymous withthe cattle call. Those casting tours.
I did two series of Big Brother. They were mammoth. They were so
tiring, you know, they weretruly, you know, pretty much a

(01:10:45):
cattle call. But even like MasterChef back in the day. I don't
know how they cast Master Chef now, But when Master chef was cast years
ago, and I'd read the thousandsof applications. We'd still meet like five
we had, we had some prettywide parameters. We still met like five
six hundred people. I wouldn't callthat. That's not an open casting call.
That's not a cattle call. Butyou're meeting a lot of people.

(01:11:05):
So you have to see people ina group interview, and then you have
to think who's going to who's goingto be really really good or who's you
know, seems to be quite engagingfrom a personality perspective, who's cooking great
food? And who have I gota question mark over? And there the
people will go through to maybe likea one on one because you don't want
to you want to make sure youdon't miss anyone, you know, like

(01:11:26):
you can't have one net, You'vegot to have a second net just to
make sure. And if there's anyonethat you're iffy on or that you really
want to make a pick on thatno, I really think there's something with
that person sticking through because you know, you don't want to miss that,
you know, and I miss alittle bit of that. But yeah,
look, I think things just change. Things just changed, and they evolve
well. In the olden days,when you want it to be considered for

(01:11:48):
a show, you've sent your VHStape in the mail and hope that a
casting director eventually viewed it and hopefullyit worked and didn't get chewed up.
And now it's pretty common, asyou said, like zoom and is this
the future or is there another stephere? Where are we going for the

(01:12:08):
future. I think it's going tocontinue on this way. I mean,
you know, doing a digital applicationis how that every show is cast.
So you need to do You needto do an online application. You cannot
avoid that. There's no cattle gulls. So it doesn't matter what show you
want to be on, You've gotto do an application. So you've got

(01:12:29):
to make sure that you do areally great application to make sure that you
get the attention of someone to readit. And you need to you need
to know, as I said,I was talking about with you getting a
really good understanding as to who youare and your brand and making sure you
put your best foot forward. Youneed to do that in your application.
So you need to make sure alot of that. A lot of applications

(01:12:51):
is actually have to do a videoto even submit, and there's a lot
of questions. It's not like it'sthree questions to submit. You're done in
ten minutes. You know, itmight take you an hour and a half
two hours to do an application,but you have to go through that process.
If you want to do a showand you have to do a good
job, don't give three word answers. You need to articulate a good answer.

(01:13:13):
You need to really think about whatyou're doing. And the way I'd
like in it is that if thisshow is potentially you've been on TV,
having a new career and winning quarterof a million dollars, are you going
to spend ten minutes on the applicationor whilch you maybe spend an hour.
That's the way I look at it. You've got to spend the time on
it, and you'll get better atit too. And you can't imagine that

(01:13:35):
you're going to get your first radiothe first time you apply. But here's
the rub. Right, if youget it right and you do a really
good job and someone interacts with you, even if you don't get on the
show, those people that have seenyour application, you're probably going to be
stuck in their head at some pointand you then know you then might get

(01:13:55):
a call for something else you neverknow. But that that was as you're
asking before about what I've created withthe subscription service, that was really the
genesis there for that was to say, right, well, if you read
applications, and I'm putting through onaverage one in twenty to one thirty that
I think read compelling enough to wantto chat too. Further, if I

(01:14:18):
could get two out of twenty,I've doubled the people that I've shortlisted for
a show, and nineteen percent ofthe time I'd be almost shortlisting people if
they just filled in the application properly. They really gave me some really great
answers and really thought about it,and they did something good in terms of
a really great photo and a goodvideo doesn't mean it has to be you

(01:14:41):
know, you don't have to haveSoundy Kubrick producing short clip, but just
make it entertaining and tell me whoyou are. And that's the sort of
stuff I want to make sure thatI can try to get across to people
and get them confident in doing thosethings, because knowing yourself is what's going
to enable you to sell yourself,and not just for TV shape, but
for every everyday life. You know, like know what you know, it

(01:15:03):
turns you on, and you knowwhat you're good at and all that sort
of stuff. It's going to helpyou make good decisions. You know,
it doesn't matter what you're doing,whether you're looking for a partner or whether
you're looking for a job or whatever. You know yourself better. You know,
that's usually the key to things workingin life is knowing yourself and being
in the right frame of mind forthose things to flow. And if this

(01:15:24):
helps you get to know who youare, I reckon it's a good thing.
And when you say that you wantto work on your application and put
in a good application, that that'sgoing to be the question that people have
got in their minds when they wantto apply for a show. They're thinking,
well, how do I make agood application? What makes a good
photo, what makes a good answer, what makes a good what makes a

(01:15:45):
good anything? And I think thesubscription service that you're working on for a
cast of thousands insider, I thinkthat that is just an amazing thing because
it's it's very very cheap for acticeby the way, because when I was
a semi employed actor, we werepaying fifty to one hundred bucks to perform
a two minute scene in front ofa casting director when they weren't really casting

(01:16:08):
for anything in particular. It wasjust a showcase. And being that you
know, the insider is nowhere nearthat cost, I think that it's an
outstanding value for anyone who's interesting,interested in getting into a show. And
that's how you work on making abetter application. So the person submitting it
is winning, the casting directors aregetting a better quality of applications. They're

(01:16:31):
winning, and it's great for everyoneabsolutely. I mean think about it this
way, right, like with AI, even at the point now where that
if you're applying for a job,often jobs are asking you to do a
video as part of your application.So that's a common thing now for large
organizations. So they don't even interviewyou, right, so your resumet is

(01:16:56):
read by an AI piece of software, but they ask you to submit a
video. So it's in your bestinterests to be able to deliver a really
great little piece to camera that sayswho you are, what you do,
what you're looking for, and whatyou're about. You know, and being
able to just drill down into thatI think gives you a massive leg up

(01:17:17):
it's not, as I said,it's not just for TV. It's everyday
life. It's it's it's important.You know it's important. But you know
the first thing you do when youregister for a show, and I often
like, will do this for ashow when I'm casting that I'll just use
you know, a Gmail address.I'll go and just copy all the questions

(01:17:40):
sticking into all word document and thenyou sit down and craft your application.
It's not trying to tell the mostfabulous stories or you know, oh my
god, they're going to want thisreally insane backstory like I need, you
know, I need to have beenkidnapped by you know, the ETI or
whatever. It would be interesting.It's not. It's not that. It's
the of who you are to thispoint. You've been on you've been on

(01:18:02):
a journey. You've been on apathway to get to where you are now.
Everyone has things, those little nicksand bumps and scrapes of life along
the way, the good things andthe bad things. It's not always just
bad things. There's good things thathappen too, but they shape who you
are and they shape your soul.And that's and that's what you're trying to

(01:18:23):
share with someone. And those littlestories, they're the stories that you tell
someone drunkenly when you're three or fourwinds in something and you're telling about something
that happened to you. That's yourbackstory. That's it. That's it.
It's as simple as that. Youdon't need to overthink it. Everyone's got
one. And I love those stories. I love hearing those people's stories because

(01:18:45):
that enriches my life. And that'swhat those stories do to people at home.
We may see you so that itenriches their lives too. Gives you
context, gives you purpose, givesyou perspective, that's all. And I
can see that you approach your worknot just with your mind, but with
your heart as well. You doput so much love into the casting that

(01:19:08):
you do. Graham. It's awesometo see and it just shines out of
you when you talk about it.Man it's it's been such a pleasure to
talk with you today. I reallydo appreciate it. Yeah, thanks a
lot, Mane. That's awesome,and well, thank you for your opportunity.
That is Graham devalance of a castof thousands. If you are interested

(01:19:29):
in a cast of thousands, insider, you can follow the links attached to
this podcast, or you can googleit later if you like. I think
that it's great for anyone really interestedin getting themselves onto Telly. But the
chat with Graham is just so greatin part because I'm finding myself really inspired
by people who who just have ago start their own business, follow their

(01:19:54):
dreams, and take a risk.And I just think that is brilliant.
Inspires me, and I hope thatlistening to my show can be inspiring for
you as well. Also, Ireally like hearing about how people progressed in
their careers and how they got intotheir careers in the first place. I
guess often it seems like just chancethat things come about, and I love

(01:20:18):
those kind of stories. Hey,you can help me out a little more.
I'm probably pushing our friendship, butrate this show this episode to the
maximum stars you can on the platformyou're listening to. That would be so
awesome. And thank you to everyonewho has already done that. I appreciate
it more than you will ever know. Also, leaving a comment there,

(01:20:39):
the algorithm loves that kind of stuff, so nice positive comment would be very
very cool. Until next time,thanks for listening in. I'm Jamie's Club,

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Casting Call: Insider

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Breakfast Club

All Episodes

Casting Call: Insider

Stuff You Should Know