November 26, 2023 • 60 mins
Having only recently learned that a death doula is an acutal profession, I'm keen to talk to Andrea about what she does. I want to know what people regret as they are dying, what memories they cherish and what exactly a death doula does.
Find Andrea's website here: www.amdoula.com.au
Find more information on my website: www.jamiesclub.com.au
Find the Dragonlance books I was obsessed with in High School here: https://rb.gy/c4xcue
Find Andrea's website here: www.amdoula.com.au
Find more information on my website: www.jamiesclub.com.au
Find the Dragonlance books I was obsessed with in High School here: https://rb.gy/c4xcue
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Hello, and welcome to Jamie's Club. Wow, it's been a couple of
weeks since the last episode, andI was truly humbled by the amount of
messages that I got asking where's thelatest episode? And I've been working hard
for you, I can tell you. Let me start off this week with
(00:28):
a story. I once went toa speed dating night and I was going
to be working for a company hostingspeed dating, and I thought, well,
why not go along? And Iwas single at the time, so
I thought, go along, checkit out as a participant and see what
it's like. I do remember themat the start of the night saying,
(00:50):
don't ask what do you do fora living? At such a banal,
basic, overused question. And I'vebeen thinking about this ever since and I
just can't agree with that. Tome, what you do for an occupation,
what you choose to do with themajority of waking hours of your life.
(01:11):
For most of us, anyway,probably says something about the kind of
person that you are. Are youin a caring profession or something analytical or
something creative. I think it's agood entry point to getting to know a
person. Sometimes I happen across peoplewho have jobs that I have never even
(01:34):
heard of before and never knew existed. The person I'm talking with today,
I didn't meet her at a speeddating event. No, this is Andrea,
and she is a death dueler.There's a job I didn't know existed
until very very recently. So adeath doller, as I understand, it
(01:55):
is someone who assists people when theyreach end of life and as they transition
into the next life or, dependingon your belief system, just pass away,
whatever it is. They also assistthe family members of these people,
so they do a whole range ofstuff. And today I'm speaking with a
(02:19):
death dueler named Andrea. She isin Stockton in New South Wales in Australia,
and I'm interested to find out moreabout her job, about the kinds
of things that she does. Andalso I'm super curious to know what do
people talk about as they're dying,What do they regret, what do they
cherish, what's on their mind atthat time. And I really want to
(02:46):
know if she's I mean, she'ssomeone who's witnessed a lot of deaths.
Has she seen any evidence of anafterlife? Anyway? This is Andrea the
Death Doors. All right, thanksfor joining me Andrea, I really do
appreciate it, and I guess Iwant to know how do I say?
(03:10):
What what you do for a living? Thanks Jaming for having me. Yes,
I'm a dead dueler, right,and that tooler is actually a person
that attends that like everything that involvesthat, and now that has a long
(03:30):
yeah history, it comes like acultural history. We always have people they
would attend first and they would attendthat, and just over the last centuries
that just since that is more somethingmedicalized, we sort of forgot about that
that we actually need people that supportus and not in a medical way,
(03:53):
like just in all other ways,because it's had that that has a lot
of different aspects. What would getyou into this kind of work? Why
would someone choose this? I'm actuallycoming from mental health. I work since
more than thirty years mental health.I work overse clinical and non clinical here.
(04:15):
And actually it's a really personal storythat got me into and it was
my daughter lost one of her bestfriend's mom, and then my dad passed
away, he was overseas, butthen her grandfather here passed away, her
cop here passed away, and allthese people died like in a few months,
(04:41):
and she just I think she wasten years old and she just came
up with this question and said,Mom, what's happened when you died?
What do we do? What doI do? I'm a single mom.
I'm like, as you can hear, I'm from overseas, I raised my
kids on my own here and shejust came up with all these questions.
Then I started reaching out to peopleand I just found out people don't like
(05:03):
to talk about that in Australia andin my culture, I think that or
how I grew up, that wasmuch more present in life, and I
think we had a much more openconversation about it. I don't know how
it is these days, but youknow whatever, forty fifty years ago and
(05:24):
I just thought, I have tostart talking about that again, like we
have to invite that back into ourlives and take this scary part out of
it, like it's a natural part. Like there is a beginning, there
is a middle, there is anVD. Right, So where are you
originally from, Andrew, I'm fromSwitzerland, Okay, And you're saying in
(05:47):
Switzerland people view death a bit differentlythan we do in Australia. I would
say, so, like how myupbringing is yes, Like you know,
it's like or probably was my family, like you know, with with my
mother, we talked about that thatwas that was a part of life.
And I think it's also we haveto say in culture, that was always
(06:10):
a part of life, like youknow, we had we had different livings,
like you know, different generations wouldlive together and you know, there
was a child born, there wasan elder dad. Like that was just
and now I think since the sincethe industrial age, I think it's much
more that. Yeah, you know, it's it's that's why people go to
(06:31):
hospital to die, but they don'twant to die there. And in my
belief, we don't need hospitals liketo die, you know, we need
hospital to save lives, but ifthe time's there to shed the body,
then we don't need the hospitals.And we just don't have that anymore.
(06:51):
Like it just it's sort of gotlost. I think, yeah, we
just we just lost our connections,like and that's why we just did started
to be discarssing and nobody likes totalk about it anymore. If you look
back far enough in history, itwould be that if a family member passed
(07:15):
away, that the living family memberswould take care of their body and would
prepare them for burial and bury themand say goodbye and in their own way.
And now it's it's it's got thistaboo around it, like we don't
you know, often we you know, often we'll have closed casket. We
won't even see the body of ourrelative that's passed, and and we won't
(07:43):
be there certainly for any of thepreparation or involved in that at all.
It's completely hands off. And doyou think that that separating ourselves from this
has some kind of cost. Ithink it tas a big, big cost
on our lives, because I'm astrong believer if we really invite like that,
(08:05):
and you know, I'm like workingaround it, and you see,
I changed my mind, like youknow, I have how I want to
die, what's important, what's notOver the years, it's it's a process
and you know, you hear somethingand I think, oh, I never
thought of that. And but Ireally, for me personally in my personal
(08:26):
story, knowing how I want todie, it really helps me how I
want to live, you know,to know how my end is. I
know what I want in the middle, because I know it's like, yeah,
it's just you know, I forme, it's like it's sort of
probably be the game or something,but that you can do. Like you
(08:52):
know, Jamie, you go tothe doctor. I don't want to wish
anything. You're you, but whateverthe doctor says, Jamie, you have
six months to live. What doyou want the next six months? I
wait? Never thought about that.Take some postives. Do it with your
family, do it with friends,do it with it just said, come
(09:13):
on, we play these games,and then take three four postives and say
what do I want? What doI want in these six months? Is
it somebody I want to hug,somebody's a journey I want to take.
Is it a sorry I want tosay? Is it something I want to
learn? Is it something new Iwant to try? What do I want?
(09:35):
There can be little things and thentalk with somebody around and then ask
yourself the questions why don't you doit? See I do? I have
actually had this thought before, andI've thought, well, if I had
six months or twelve months to live, I'd want to empty out every savings
account of got sell all my assetsand just live it up. And I
(09:58):
can't do that right because I don'tknow when my hand date is and I'm
probably going to need money when I'meighteen ninety. If I live that long,
I'm going to need. I'm goingto need and I won't have the
capacity to earn as much. Soit can be a difficult thing to work
out. What is it I wantto do? I guess within the boundaries,
(10:18):
right is it? And is Seethat's where my question comes. Is
everything that you want to do buyingtoo money? I guess it costs money
to do things like i'd want tothat you want to do, but you
see that's why. But there arealso emotional stuff you want to do,
Like you know, there is thisfriend that you want to say, that's
(10:39):
this conversation you want to have withsomebody, the swim you want to have
at the beach, and you don'tdo like you know, we don't.
Yes, there are to be things, but how about it just start with
the smaller things. Look like visitthese frames. I haven't heard anything or
somebody that came and comes up tothe mind, like you know, it's
just go and looks at and yeahwhatever, see an exhibition that I wanted
(11:03):
to see? Like, yes,there are the big things, like you
know, but and we probably allhave that. But I for me,
it's like, you know, it'sthe little thing. It's like to be
in the presence, being in themoment, like what's important for me today
now? And if I know howmy end looks, then I find out
(11:24):
what's important to the day, Likecan I be a good person today?
Can I reach out to somebody youknow that I can, can I get
can I get this smile from somebody? Can I have a belly laugh?
You know? It's yes, thereare the big things, like you see,
that's why it's but just try itonce and even put that down,
(11:46):
you know, But then that's onone one thing. That's on one posted.
I empty my bank account and haveall the money and spend it.
But what you do with the otherthree, like, they're probably not the
big things. And that's why it'sjust an idea. Yeah, And I
think that's how I want a lotroads that we just start to think about
what do we really want in life? You know, what is important to
(12:09):
us? You're saying that just makesme think about I've got a lot of
friends that I need to make phonecalls to and return calls and just have
a chat about nothing. Yeah,well that's something I don't think about you
get so busy, you get socaught up in living and surviving and doing
(12:30):
what you need to do to getbuy in this world that you do put
a lot of things to one side, and your perspective would certainly change if
you had six months left. Andyou see, and it's the things like
I think, we are in ageneration. We accumulate all this stuff that
at the end of your life somebodyhas to take care of. You know,
when have your last looked at yourroles with all your stuff in it,
(12:54):
at your cupbets. There is somuch stuff that the world doesn't need.
And you work for agency each singlething that's in your cupboard, who
worked for it? You know?For each item you buy? You know,
And I think we get so caughtup so called life with all the
things we need, we actually forgetto live, like the real living,
(13:16):
like this real being present, beinghere, being alive, being, you
know, feel our breaths, youknow, feel our feelings. We forget
about it because you know, wewant to speak. Do you really think
at the end of your life youregret that you didn't have whatever car?
No, I'm not a card,so it wouldn't worry may at all?
(13:37):
A boat or whatever. But youknow, but I think at the end
of the life, you know,that's the conversation I have people regret not
to have taken the trip they wanted, not to have said the sorry they
want it, you know, havinga grudge towards somebody about a minor thing
(13:58):
and not talking with this person foryears. Like that's my experience. People,
That's what at the end of thelife people struggle with. You know,
it's often the connections they didn't havewith other people, Like you know
that the loft they didn't fail,the loft they didn't gain, the time
they didn't have to play with theirkids, the time they didn't have to
(14:20):
go, you know, fishing withyour mates the time. Yeah. Well,
as just said, having this phonecall with the person, Yeah,
because you were busy with life.Hmm. It's interesting that it's those small
things that people regret. Like Iguess I would have thought that people would
regret saying, oh, I alwayswanted to drive a Ferrari and I never
(14:45):
did. And you're saying that atthe end of life, Like people don't
wish that they had bought a biggerhouse, or saved saved more money,
or or worked harder. It's likethey're not thinking about it. I never
met anybody. They are probably peopleout there they think, but you see,
you cannot take the house with you. You live it here and you
don't need it. Like what wasthe big house when you think the money,
(15:09):
the house you had to work for, this big house that you have,
could spend with your I don't know, jem, if you're married,
that you could have spent with yourwife, with you, with your parents,
with your kids, with you know, making memories. Because at the
end, yes, there is ahouse there, but at the end,
you need the bed you need youknow, you need a place where you
(15:30):
can rest your head, where youfeel safe. But you know, I
think also, like you know this, we're not there for our kids anymore,
like you know, but that's whyboth parents have to work, the
kids have to go to to takecare, the kids have to go to
So I build really strongly believe thesepeople do all a fantastic job. You
know, we outsource our our cooking. But my experience is really at the
(15:56):
end of the day, it's theconnection you have. It's like, you
know, it's these people, ourfriends, our family, because you know,
you don't need anything else, likeyou know you have usually if you
don't get buried or burn naked,you know you have one shirt and that's
it. Nothing else. You sortof born naked and you die naked.
(16:21):
And in the middle you accumulate allthis stuff that you probably don't need.
Like I just did last week.I did a clean out with my daughter,
Like we just went to the cupboards. And we have a small house,
but I just think it's so beautiful. I have now draws, not
big draws, but I have afew little draws. It's just empty.
(16:45):
There is just nothing in it.And you see that gives room, it
keeps room, it sets you free. It's like and if you clatter ourselves
in with all this stuff we don'thave, we don't have room to breed
it. We don't have room tooto feel some new things and some new
ideas and some new feelings, somenew people. That's why for me,
(17:07):
it's like that, Yes, that'sand there is a lot of practical things
we have to talk about that,but that's why, that's why I'm so
so passionate about to talk it becausefor me, it shows me so much
how I want to live or that'smy that's my journey. It sounds very
much like like minimalism. Are youare you into that you're you're aware of
(17:30):
I'm definitely, I definitely more andmore are attracted to other things than material
things. Yes, that's definitely Andthat probably comes out of a lot of
fear. Like you know, Iended up from the other side of the
world here with two kids and wassuddenly responsible for two kids. I had
(17:51):
to make a living, I hadto put food on the table, had
to pay bills. What's happening ifI'm sick? I only had casual jobs.
That just you know, a lotof fear, and I had to
start to work around it. Andthen I just so yeah, but you
know, and that's why my daughter, we had a lot of us it
(18:11):
is as you have as a familyconflict. But she was a fantastic teachers
because she asked me. I justrealized, I want to be here for
my kids. And yes, whenthe kids a little they both probably get
cranky because they didn't got the tractorlike that other one, or they didn't
got the new iPhone or whatever.There is like you know, yes,
(18:32):
kids and you know kids are reallygood. We have to be honest.
He really could to work if ourguilt. You know, they know us,
they know us, they know howto make you feel guilty. They
do. Yeah, you know,I don't know. Do you have kids.
I don't. Yes, I gotI just got the one. One
boy and he's uh, yeah,he's six years old now, and yeah,
(18:53):
he definitely wants things. But doyou believe when he's thirty, he
will tell to you, oh,you know, I'm still cranky that you
didn't buy the iPhone fifteen for me. I don't think you remember, No,
that's why. But do you thinkhe will remember that you went,
you know, to the zoo withhim, or that you went and build
(19:15):
a fire together and had some marshmallows. And you see, that's where I
come from. I think we forgotabout this. We just And that's why,
because we have so much fear ofthat, we just keep ourselves busy
with everything and clutter around ourselves inwith so much stuff that we don't have
to feel these feelings, and becausenobody talks with us about it, like
(19:40):
I grew up like That's why Iwas probably a bit more in my culture.
But you know, you have tobe good, you have to be
feel good, you have to bewhatever like you know, it's like people
were not good to deal with,you know, help when you're angry or
when you fear full or like youknow, we haven't learned to talk about
(20:03):
this this animal or this these thing. So like you know, when kids
lose their animals, then yeah,I just you know, we don't.
We try to support them, butnot really. We often say you will
be all right, you will beall right, like you know, or
that's why I often we say okay, we're gone buy another one. But
you know, to do the realwork around stuff like with kids we've lost,
(20:26):
like losing a friend, Like that'swhy it starts when we are very
little. We don't talk about lossand grief. It's like if you fail
at something or the key you alwaysget awards when you do really well.
You know, you never get awardswhen you fail. But at the end
of the day, that's where youlearn, like you know much more in
(20:49):
life. And I think that wejust I think we just lost a lot
of connections. We've just we livein these little family units these days.
You know, everybody in a house, like some people are probably more Yeah,
like if you live on the countryside, you probably have a bit more
contact with your neighbors or like youknow, through the kids with schools and
(21:12):
stuff and later on. But likethese days, like you know, people
working from home, we are veryisolated and we just don't do this work
anymore, I think. And that'sthat's where I see myself, like just
to be there and be if peoplehave questions. And another thing is about
(21:33):
that. I think everybody has astory to tell about that everybody, but
we don't hear these stories. Wedon't take the time to listen that Like,
that's my experience if I talk withpeople that they talk about like losing
their grandparents or losing whoever, andthey just you know, they haven't been
(21:55):
heard as a kid. How canyou be heard as an adult because you
just think you just talk about it. My great grandmother when she went,
I want to just tell you thisyear she was she was in a nursing
home and she was lying on thebed and she was ninety nine, and
she had her eyes closed and shewouldn't wake back up. And the nurses
said said, oh, you know, come on, wake back up.
(22:17):
We want to see you make itto one hundred. We want to see
your letter from the queen, becauseif you turn a hundred In Australia,
the queen writes you a letter.So they said, oh, we want
to see the letter from the queen, so stay with us. And my
grandma, Grandma, without opening hereyes, just said no, defiant right
to the end. And I justthink that's hilarious and that that's her.
(22:40):
And she was determined, No,I won't make it to one hundred.
I don't want to. I'm not. She was ready And what a beautiful
story do you see that? Sowe have to share these stories like they
are so important for us to hear. It informs our hearts like it's so
important and it really makes us feelalive. And I think that's the important
(23:03):
part. So as a as adeath dueler, are you there initially for
the person who is on their wayout, who is dying, and then
and then once they're gone, you'rethere for the family? Is that how
it works? Are you there morefor the family or more for the person
who's going? Look, that's whythere is actually that do us? They
(23:23):
are review around and I think everyeveryone is a bit different or it's different
what they do, like you know, some they do us they really do
the work, like with the person. They're there for the person. Often
it is also a bit like amediator, like between the person that dies
(23:45):
and the family because especially if wetalk about that, like you know,
propers through old age or if somebodyhas an illness and there is like there
is a time frame like you know, because we have different Yeah, we
see a different like you know.And my experience is also often like old
(24:07):
conflicts comesuddenly up, like between siblingsor between different family members are involved,
especially if the person probably cannot reallytalk to themselves anymore than it's especially with
ill us or with old age,that the person actually is ready to go,
(24:29):
but the one step back is theythey're not ready to let them go,
like you know, they want tohold on to them. And I
think that's why that that's one partand then you see that's why I'm somebody
I actually I like to talk withhealthy people about that. For me,
it is important that we really talkabout it. I also, I think
(24:52):
and important because coming from mental health, like it's like that people have a
voice, you know. I thinkin the whole medical system like that that
we can say okay, the doctortells us that, but you know that
we probably go for an ask andfor another opinion, and that we learn
to make our own life, youknow, because we go to the doctors
(25:15):
and they don't have the time toyou know, spend really this. You
know, that's why the time andhave these conversations. They take as much
time as they can. But it'sour medical system is not built for that
anymore. Like we all see thatjust to go to a GP, they
all these days there is a timelimit, like you even have to book
(25:36):
a long appointment. You know,it's not like that you just can go
to the doctor. And and Ithink I was in the in the hospital
like that's why. And I thinkfor me, I see to be there
like and just to listen what peoplereally need. And that's why because it
is individual and I don't even thinkthere is a right and the wrong what
we want in life, but it'sI think to know what our options are.
(26:02):
I think that's important. And thatwe learned to speak up what's important
for us and see and find theanswers, like and that's why that And
then there are adults that do us. They write down stories like you know,
if somebody had a life and said, look like my grandkids are still
little. There is so much stuff. I want to give to them,
(26:23):
but you know I probably don't,are you. I want to tell you
my story, like you know mykids. My mom was dead before my
kids were born. Like that's whymy father was always easy. He came
and visited us, but he gotthe mentor they were little when my parents
(26:44):
left, and that's why my daughterhad they were older. That's like,
and I'll her grandma is or mysons like the grandma's still alive. But
you see they're also teenagers and they'renot that interested in these stories. But
then later on you actually suddenly youknow, maybe we've thirty you are interested
what's happened, and there is somuch risk. That's why they are people
(27:07):
that they write down the stories.There are people like you know, that's
why they go and visit people likeI think that doula can work with people
at home, but that doula canwork with people also in hospital, and
they do all I can work withpeople in the host spice, like you
know, that's why. And Ithink just each doula has also their specialty
(27:32):
and that's why it's more probably likean attraction, like somebody is more attractive
to their style and feel more supportedby this person and the other one needs
somebody else. And then but yousee also like that's why it's often like
to organize everything, like if it'sreally somebody wants to die at home,
because there is a lot of organizationinvolved and that leads a lot of people.
(27:56):
That's not the job that one ortwo people can do. Ooh,
Like you see, reality is thatmost people, when you ask them,
they want to die at home.But the reality is most people die in
hospital. I think there is aroundI think around seventy to eighty percent of
people actually would like to die athome, but I think it's only around
twenty people. They really diet tooand the rest dies in hospital. And
(28:19):
then you see there is the dyingprocess, like you know that because there
are stuff involved at the end ofthe life, like how people react and
family members of friends they start topanic then during the ambulance and then the
ambulance has to take them. Butyou see, there is something like in
New South Wales. I mainly talkabout New South Wales because that's where I
(28:42):
live and that's I know, butthere is something like an ambulance care plane,
like you know that at the endof life, you can do an
ambulance care plane. That means ifyou're panicking and worry about your loved one,
you can ring the ambulance. Butboth like signed an agreement that the
ambulance come and they just can't tellyou yet not that's okay. They actually
(29:06):
can leave you there. But ifyou haven't signed one of these ambulance kale
planes or emergency planes, the ambulancehas to take you to hospital and then
they have to give you medication becausethey don't want you that you die in
the ambulance. And if it's alot of stuff going on, and we
all know emergencies are all full thesedays, and if you're come in because
(29:29):
you are in the dying, you'renot on the priority list. It sounds
horrible when I say that, though, but you know, we have to
start to be aware of stuff likethis. Then you die somewhere in the
hallway, not with your family,and you see that you're unwanted. We
start this conversation because there is stuffthat you can do. And you see
it's like you plan everything, likeyou plan your day and sometimes it doesn't
(29:53):
goes to plan, but it's stillgood. It still gives a sort of
the security, you sort of havea plan or you can go back to
the plane. And I think forme that's with the end of life too,
like what is really important? Whatdo I want? Like you know,
what medical invention do I want?What medical invention I don't want?
That we talk about these things likeyeah, when do I want reanimation?
(30:18):
When I don't want? Like especiallywith accidents, like you know, if
somebody has a car accident, familymembers suddenly have to do decisions and you
never talked about it, and sojust as much you could be an advocate
for the person who's who's dying.Yeah, that's what it is. And
but I think you know as moreas we start now talking like we two
(30:40):
talk about that, you know,you can think about it then make yourself.
You can write it down like youcan do an advanced care plane,
and then you just change it again. For me, there are sort of
three parts, Like one is thelegal part, like the financial part,
like you know what is like witha real what's happened with the finances?
What all this stuff? And thenthere isn't everyday stuff like often we see
(31:04):
that with couples. Probably I don'tknow if this days it's a bit better
because both work and both face pills. But you know, with other people,
often just one person paid the bill. The other person does not even
know who the electricity provider is,you know, and then or like with
bank accounts, the bank account isin one name. That means if this
(31:26):
person dies or is unable because theyare in a corna in the hospital,
stuff just gets frozen and then theother person doesn't have access to these bank
accounts. I never thought about that. Yeah, you see, that's why,
and that's where I see myself oras at that tour, just that
we start to do this, likeyou know, they say, now I
(31:48):
don't know if it's already happening orit will happen soon, but that there
will be more that people on Facebookthan alive. Yes, yeah, this
and there is actually there is nowa function on Facebook that you can you
can memorialize account. Yeah, yeah, And I think that's why there is
(32:09):
so many things out there we don'tthink about. And if you write it
all down, I think, youknow, if if if you have this
all written down, like that's mybank account, that the provider and have
this advanced care somewhere accessible for peoplelike then they just can take this paper
and look it through and you knowit's whatever. Every six months or every
(32:31):
twelve months. You don't have todo that every day. It just goes
through and think, oh, yeah, my my phone provider has changed,
Like you know, that's why ifyou're ing up and you have a phone
and then I often they say,oh, are you the account hold or
not? Okay, we cannot dealwith you. Well the account holder is
that there is in a coma,there are little things, you know,
(32:52):
and then it's also what you want, what's important for you, Like if
you get dick, is it yes, if there is a change that I
get better, that I want thistreatment, But I don't want that,
like you know, I don't wantthat people have to to change me.
I don't want that people have toto feed me. For one person that's
probably okay, for another one it'snot. But we suddenly leave to other
(33:15):
people that they have to do withtraditions for us, and they're probably not
even comfortable. It's also like,you know, we have different forms of
families these days, like you know, with hatchwork, families with the same
sex or partnerships, like you know, they in the legal system. As
(33:36):
soon as you get sick. Theyprobably like, you can be have a
partner, but you're not married orwhatever, and then suddenly you're probably even
strange to your family or haven't hadmuch to do, but you were together
with your partner for ten years andthen suddenly they say, yeah, but
we don't want that because you don'thave you know, the legal rights to
(33:58):
do so. Like And that's whyI really think we have to start to
talk about it and bring that inhmm. So in your work, when
you're when you're conversing with people whoare close to death and they and they
know that it's coming, well,do you find is there is there a
(34:19):
common emotion or is there a commonthread of things that people want to talk
to you about? Is very individual? I think that it's very very individual,
yes, am I. But that'swhy it's also often, you know,
combined with mental health. It's likethey like to have you there,
but sometimes they just even like tohave you there but a bit distanced.
(34:44):
Like you know, we have sometimesthis idea we have to hold the person's
hands, but that's not always thecase, because we keep them here as
long as we hold them. Butyou know, some people they're sort of
comfortable that you're probably in the sameroom but in back. And then some
people are comfortable, like you knowthat there are people, especially when people
(35:06):
die at home, that they arein another room, that they probably can
hear them, but that they're nottoo close because it's too much. And
you see that way. It's allit's all different and people react different,
and that's why you have to writeit down, like you know. And
I think also like it's often becauseit's the family. It's if kids are
(35:28):
involved or other ones. It's likeyou know that they start doing probably white
rituals again, like you know whatwe can do because but you know,
sometimes it's also like that we canwrite something for them. But for me,
often people like especially the ones youknow, they are sick. Often
they do have medication, like youknow, they even sort of come in
(35:51):
and out of consciousness. Some peopleeven say, oh, they're psychotic.
I don't really believe they are psychoticwith my experience like working with with people,
for me, it's often that theyjust because they sometimes talk about somebody
that died before, and I don'tknow if they start you know that they
are in a between world. Ireally don't know, Like, but I
(36:15):
think often like the people I actuallysupported that they start to be the try
they could sort of come in andout of consciousness over the last few days,
and you sort of you you know, you sort of your sense,
like your sense like that, youknow that they sort of transition into something
(36:37):
else. And then you know that'swhy when when when you see them that
that person, you see that somethingsort of left, like you know,
it's really it's hard to describe,but yeah, that that's sort of my
my experience that I had. Likeand you know, if if there was
a sudden that yes, then thereis probably a different support would like you
(37:00):
know, just to deal with familism, like you know, what their options
are, what they want to havedone, Like you know, that's why
then the questions if you want aburial, if you want if you want
a cremation. I think it's alsolike you know that that's why you have
this conversation what do you want?Do you want a burial, do you
wanna do you want a cremation?How should that? How should that be?
(37:24):
Like for me, it's something thatI also always think it's interesting,
like you know, we put allthese flowers onto coffins that has actually that's
also a tradition and the thing,the reason why there are so many flowers
is because the bodies would like youknow, decay and they would smell so
(37:45):
strongly, and that the undertaker couldtake to their jobs. They put all
these flowers there. Well, neverthought about that. But these days you
have actually cool plates and cool roomsand you don't. And that's why sometimes
saying, look it is nice,but yeah, why don't you give the
flowers while the people are still alive? Like, but people don't not because
(38:09):
you know, it's something so sotypical, you know, we give flowers.
But that's actually the reason was justput the smell. Never thought about
that ever. It's just an acceptedthing that you throw flowers onto the coffin,
being that you're there, when whenpeople are actually dying in have you
(38:31):
ever seen any evidence of afterlife?I mean you see a lot of you
hear about a lot of people whotalk to or about people that have died
long before them. Do you thinkthey're actually do you think they could be
actually seeing them or or do youhave any evidence of where they're going?
(38:52):
I don't have any evidence, butI did. That's why I see people
taking con plack like with these otherpeople, like you know that already went
before them. Yes, and yousee it's it's as soon like you know,
we come to this planet and wetake a breath th and then the
(39:16):
life actually ends with a breas out. That's how it is, like you
know, and usually at the end, that's why often people get panicked.
There is a sort of like arattling noise to the breast. Yeah,
you hear about that, and yousee that. Try it just goes longer
until the next impress and then theoutbreass and then thats just But then for
(39:39):
me, it's often I have thefeeling like that that that that I have
to open the window. I dotalk with people about that before. But
for me, I often have thisfeeling that that something can be released.
Yes, yeah, but it's notlike you know, it's not like I
don't have a visual but but yousee that there is something you know leaves
(40:04):
the body and yeah, yeah,so do you do you believe in an
afterlife yourself? Look, I stilltalk with my mother, yeah, and
I always think, you like,because I had a very well we had
a challenging relationship when I was akid, and we had a lot of
(40:27):
argument a lot of fighting, alot of different opinion. I was with
my mom the last month of herlife, and we talked about like we
spent hours with each other on thebed that she told me stories, and
I'm forever grateful for this time,like I see, the last probably three
months of her life, he madeup for a whole life, Like you
(40:50):
know, we really I'm to thisstate rateful that I had this time with
her. Like but that's why Ioften say today, like it's really good
to talk with Mom because we don'thave the arguments anymore. But I'm like,
you know, I just I justwent this morning, I went down
to the beach, and you know, I just it was so beautiful that
the sun, that the ocean,and I just just said thank you,
(41:14):
Like she's still present in my life. Yes, you know, if I
really listen, I know what answersshe will give me. And sometimes I
like them and sometimes I don't likethem. But you see, the good
thing is I don't have to fightwith her anymore, and I can do
my own decision, but I alsohave to live with the consequences. But
I definitely believe there is something andI often believe that's why we have so
(41:39):
much turmoil on this world because wedon't do these transitions right anymore. We
like in so many cultures, likeyou know, they have these procedures like
especially like in India and stuff likeyou know how long the body has to
be around. And I think evenwe had that, like you know,
there was the body, then youhad that long at home and then prayers
(42:02):
like that's why religion is often withprayers and with all this stuff. But
I think because you know, tohelp these bodies to transition. And that's
why I think we just really lostat all because we don't have that much
religion in our lives anymore. Andin some cultures it's probably still much more.
(42:23):
It's very clear, like you knowthey have these days how after how
many days that you do prayers again. But I definitely believe there is something
and you see, that's why Ibelieve, Yes, I can live to
my kids are nice keepsake or whatever, and you know, it's probably nice
(42:44):
for them if they don't have theburdens of you know, have to clean
up too much after yourself. ButI think it's different things that believe as
a legacy, like and how weare in other people's conscious like, and
I think that's like building memories together. I do believe some people puzzled of
(43:06):
in between sometimes and have struggled todo the whole transitional like yes, that
left and the body is dead,but they haven't had the good a proper
transition. But I think there arepeople out there that can help. But
you see that, right, that'sa really personal belief, and it's I
don't have any proof, like that'sno science behind it or anything. That's
(43:29):
just my experience that I have.But working in mental health so many years,
it's just there is like my mindor my what I see, it's
it's just it's just a fraction ofwhat's there. And now just because I
(43:49):
can't see it doesn't mean it isnot there. I more and more strongly
believe in that there are a lotof boundaries in our mind and that's through
our upbringing, our racing, thatwe are sort of, yeah, sometimes
a bit narrow minded, and thatthere is definitely much more out there that's
(44:09):
untee or yeah, yeah. Iused to read a lot of dragon Lance
Chronicles. It was this fantasy bookseries, and they had this race on
there that were like it had anadventurous spirit and we're always looking for new
experiences. And they saw death andthis stuck with me. They saw death
(44:30):
as the last great adventure. You'regoing to find out what happens now.
And because the rest of us wedon't know. We guess, we think,
we have our own ideas, wehear other people's ideas, and maybe
there's a heaven, maybe there's ahell, maybe there's nothing. Maybe there's
(44:52):
finally be reunited with all those oldpeople and old pets that left us.
It's an adventure, and I thinkit's an exciting chapter, you know.
And there's some people that even saythat dying you're going home, that you're
only here for a short time andyou're going to live for eternity somewhere else.
Do you think do you think thatwhen when a pet passes away,
(45:15):
it's it's such a sad time,it's awful, and you don't want your
children to be upset? Do youthink that telling the children that the pet's
gone to live on a farm thatwas a common thing to do back in
like I guess the eighties. Youknow, I was like, oh,
that the dog's gone to live ona farm. And because that, you
(45:37):
don't want your child to be upset. But are we are we robbing them
of the opportunity to learn how tomourn by doing that? I think,
so, why don't we want ourkids to be upset? Because you don't
deal with your kids, Felix?Is it like, why don't you want
your kids upset? It's it's it'sit's a feeling that these kids have,
(46:02):
Like they have all the right tofeel upset. They have the right to
be angry, you know, theyhave the right to through go through all
these emotions. That's why I reallythink we have to tell already the kids
like that's a part of life,like you like, and that's why it's
actually even like you know, youare born and whatever your cats you know
(46:29):
was born. You remember she wasthis little kid then and you know,
cats that just don't have such along life as we have. But then
make a beautiful ritual with them,like you know, don't tell them they
went somewhere else because they they thinkyou took it off them. But if
you tell them that they just diedbecause their body just didn't need anymore,
(46:49):
because they go into another world,but they still can connect with them,
you know, then you know thesedays you I think of the animals they
are cremated. And then that's whyyou even can do keep sakes these days
out of fashiest the special companies theyactually specialized in keep sakes with fascist that
you do something like this, solike you bury them in the garden and
(47:13):
they probably can can do some rocksand paint some rocks and put them there,
and then and then tell the kids, like if you're said you can
even put there a little jair orsomething what they are comfortable with, and
say, look, if you said, you always can go and you still
can talk with them, like that'swhat I would do. I say,
just because they did, you stillcan talk with them and make make clear
(47:36):
that that they are loved and thatthey still can love these animals, and
that they that they can cry likeyou know, I think, I think
you don't want your kids to beupset. That comes out of your ego
that you want don't want your kidsupset because it's really hard to deal with
these feelings. But don't be robbedthese kids from something when you take his
(48:00):
feelings away, because they are feelings. Well, why do we have these
feelings? I think we are apart of life. But that's why we
just we don't want to deal withthem, like you know, we should
be always happy. And I thinkthere's so many things we can do like
that you said, come on,we write a story together about the door.
(48:20):
We make it drawing and then stillI think sometimes we still can can
talk about that, you know,can you remember, like you know,
whatever, how the cats ever everis like you know, we have Rosy,
it's our catches. I don't knowhow in the meantime she moved in
with us whenever I was a littlecatchy, and she she lives since then
(48:40):
with us. But we already talknow about that, like you know,
we are aware that Rosy probably doesn'toutlive us, that we outlive her,
and you see that, why ifwe start to normalize that and then make
the best that I enjoy the timeas long as you have them, you
know, the best out of that. It's a good, good lesson to
(49:02):
learn. And if you can learnit from a pet, then that,
I guess is practice for for enduringthose emotions when it comes that next time
it's not a pet, next timeit's it's grandma or grandpa. And you
see the ritual, like you know, I don't know if you ever heard
like in the meantime you can cancan paint coffins like and what a lovely
(49:25):
thing for all the grandkids and allor nieces and nephews or whatever come together
and pay together the coffin or allrights and o like you know, that's
why in the meantime they have somany different options. It doesn't have to
be this odd traditional way. That'swhy doulers can show you, like what
else is there? Like people thesedays even have sometimes awake while they're still
(49:49):
alive, because they say, Iwant to be a part of the of
the fun. I want to hearall the nice things people have got to
say about me. Yeah, ifthere are any hope who what types of
people come to you as a deathdoler? What's your do you have a
(50:10):
typical customer? No? Look,one thing is we have to say because
we we we know, like peoplehave to pay me, like it's not
something like and and that's why I'mnot not in the thing to have a
free service, Like that's why I'ma single month with kids and stuff.
(50:32):
But like that's definitely something you know, do you have to have certain but
you know it's it's it's really it'sall different people, like you know,
it's it's probably mainly mainly women forme, like here in Australia, I
think it's more likely women want toask. I often it is like what
(50:57):
something? What I often hear it'slike I don't want to be a burden
to my family, like you know, and I don't want that they see
my sadness. I don't want tosee that they see my tears. And
for me, it's always like,but you know, it's actually nice to
sorry sometimes I have to laugh,but you know, it's nice to cry
(51:19):
together. I know, I getthat, you know, And I think,
but it's often I think the familyis probably be the way they're not,
like you know, they're not closelike in Australia such a big country,
like you know, especially with elderpeople, like that's why they have
the family that they're lives somewhere downin Melbourne or in Brisbane or wherever they
(51:40):
are, they just cannot just popin and be there. And then I
think it's probably people that are curious, like you know, I still you
that's why they've already done some workaround it and know they want to start
talking about it. Often people stuffhappened to them in their life, like
you know, they had some majorlife and went that sort of sort of
(52:06):
formed them, or yeah, they'reon their lives. I think that's often
that is like you know, Ithink it's probably no people that live sort
of in a pleistful ignorance kind oflife. Like it's probably more curious people,
as you said, like you know, they have questions, as you
said, oh you know, isthere en after life? Is there something?
(52:28):
You know? It's yeah, Andsometimes it's just yeah, like you
see, sometimes I just have normalconversation with people just and then they contact
me, or sometimes it's referred tosomebody like you know that a friend talks
with a friend and says, oh, my mom really struggles, and then
I get sort off the phone numberto make a contact with them. And
(52:50):
then yeah, some people they reallywon't want the guidance through the whole time.
And then some people, yeah,you just probably yeah, it be
a bit of an advisory, givethe most ideas where they can reach out
and other options they are like inthe meantime, there is a lot of
other things there are out there wherepeople can now that's like yeah, there
(53:15):
where we talk about brief and loss. That's interesting and it's it's important work
by the sounds of it, Imean in terms of like helping people from
an emotional point of view, tohelping helping the person who's passing find some
peace, helping the family find somepeace, healing some reeferens, and even
(53:37):
just down to the practical things likehow do you get access to someone's bank
account? Where do you get adeath certificate from? I wouldn't know these
things. You know, what aboutthe loans that this person's got, do
we need to have them? Howdo we organize to have them paid out?
These These are technical things that alot of it's going to hit you
(53:59):
after it happens. And I thinkto have some support would be a wonderful
thing for the people left behind.And it sounds to me like you can
be of a great service to peoplethat while they're here, and even then
for their family members after they're gone. And we'll definitely have all the links
to your contact details in the shownotes, people will find your website.
(54:22):
But it's got to be really rewardingwork, right, You've got to feel
good about what you do. You'redoing something really really important. Look,
I think it's such a privilege forme. It's a privilege if somebody chooses
with me to spend this time likebecause that people often shared and stories and
(54:45):
that's just beautiful tragic sometimes but lifestories. But you know, just to
have to trust and be with somebodyto be in this transition. I truly,
truly feel blessed can dole this work. Yes, I think it's just
it's it's a gift. Like forme, it's really really a gift and
(55:07):
also like a really good reminder aboutthe impermanent of life. I think that's
something really important today. And witheach person it's always it's like I learned
something new. It's just yeah,thanks so much for taking the time to
have a chat with me about thistoday. And I hope that this opens
(55:27):
up some conversations that people are uncomfortableabout having because I guess when I go,
I want people around me to havea sense of sadness, but I
don't also want to be creating allnegative emotions. I hope that people can
remember the things that I did tomake them laugh or make them smile,
or make them feel good about themselves. I want to leave that kind of
(55:50):
legacy behind and I think that Ithink that death doesn't have to be a
morbid, scary thing all the time, right, you see, and it
it affects everyone, like people alwayssaid, like text and that is unavoidable.
I'm not the chuol with the text, like some people really can avoid
them. But you know it islike that's what it is. Just that's
(56:15):
what it is, a part ofour life. You know, that's just
how it is. And I reallyreally believe if we start the conversation like
you see, even be like wetalked about that, but we had a
few laughs during the conversation, andthat's what it is. Don't take life
that serious, go on it lighthearted, just start like yeah, if a
(56:38):
doula start and end of life careplan, like they can't guide you through,
have this conversation. And that's whyit's not setting stone. You just
can you can change, you knowyou if you write it down today and
tomorrow you want something else, thatjust changes. That's nothing wrong. Like
(56:59):
if you think that's the medical decisionI want today, if it's really happened
and you ask it, you probablydon't want them, then change them.
You have all the right to changeyour opinions. Just start somewhere, just
start the conversation, start writing thethings down. There are also books out
there that can help you if you'renot comfortable to talk with a person.
(57:21):
But yeah, I really think startthe conversation, don't take a serious too
much, and just start probably withthe things you're comfortable and then go deeper
into the conversation. That's yeah,go from the practical side and then go
into the emotional side. And Ithink if you can let go a bit
of this fear, and if youhave got a bit organized, I really
(57:44):
truly believe we more alive, weare more here and more present because we
have a plan. We have aplan for the end of our life.
Like you know, that takes alot of fear, because fear is something
that holds us back. If youdo the decisions out of you, their
hold us back. Yeah, Andif we can set things up while we're
of sound mind and we are ina good place, then then we can
(58:07):
have them, have them in placefor when when it is our time.
And to be honest, none ofus know when that is exactly well,
not until you get a prognosis,I guess, and then and then you
do. But for a lot ofus, we just don't know when our
time's up, so yeah, Ithink too. I have these conversations ahead
of time is a valuable thing.So I really appreciate you taking the time
(58:30):
to have a talk with me today, Andrea. And as I said,
the links to your website will bein the show notes so people can find
you. Thanks so much for havinga chat. Thanks Jamie, it was
a pleasure to talk with you,and yeah, to take time out of
your life to talk with me aboutthat. I really feel grateful for that.
Thank you. Wow, I didnot expect that chat with Andrea the
(58:54):
Death Dueler to be as entertaining andenjoyable and uplifting as it was. You
know now I'm regretting that I almostdidn't talk to her because I thought,
oh, I might be a bitdepressing, it might be something we don't
want to hear about. But youknow, her philosophies on life are amazing.
(59:15):
Preparing for death can point us inthe right direction of how we want
to live, and thinking about ifwe only had a little bit of time
left can give us some real cluesabout what we want deep in our hearts
and our souls, what we wantin our life right now. Thank you
(59:36):
so much for listening into my show, and thank you to the people that
have subscribed and followed. I appreciatethat so much. You could go a
step further and help me build myaudience by sharing one of your favorite episodes
on your social media. That wouldbe so great if you would do that
(59:58):
for me. I appreciate it somuch. In the meantime, thank you
so much, just for being you, just for hanging out with me,
just for validating me sitting here inthis studio talking to myself. I appreciate
you. You're awesome. Bye.
Hello, and welcome to Jamie's Club. Wow, it's been a couple of
weeks since the last episode, andI was truly humbled by the amount of
messages that I got asking where's thelatest episode? And I've been working hard
for you, I can tell you. Let me start off this week with
(00:28):
a story. I once went toa speed dating night and I was going
to be working for a company hostingspeed dating, and I thought, well,
why not go along? And Iwas single at the time, so
I thought, go along, checkit out as a participant and see what
it's like. I do remember themat the start of the night saying,
(00:50):
don't ask what do you do fora living? At such a banal,
basic, overused question. And I'vebeen thinking about this ever since and I
just can't agree with that. Tome, what you do for an occupation,
what you choose to do with themajority of waking hours of your life.
(01:11):
For most of us, anyway,probably says something about the kind of
person that you are. Are youin a caring profession or something analytical or
something creative. I think it's agood entry point to getting to know a
person. Sometimes I happen across peoplewho have jobs that I have never even
(01:34):
heard of before and never knew existed. The person I'm talking with today,
I didn't meet her at a speeddating event. No, this is Andrea,
and she is a death dueler.There's a job I didn't know existed
until very very recently. So adeath doller, as I understand, it
(01:55):
is someone who assists people when theyreach end of life and as they transition
into the next life or, dependingon your belief system, just pass away,
whatever it is. They also assistthe family members of these people,
so they do a whole range ofstuff. And today I'm speaking with a
(02:19):
death dueler named Andrea. She isin Stockton in New South Wales in Australia,
and I'm interested to find out moreabout her job, about the kinds
of things that she does. Andalso I'm super curious to know what do
people talk about as they're dying,What do they regret, what do they
cherish, what's on their mind atthat time. And I really want to
(02:46):
know if she's I mean, she'ssomeone who's witnessed a lot of deaths.
Has she seen any evidence of anafterlife? Anyway? This is Andrea the
Death Doors. All right, thanksfor joining me Andrea, I really do
appreciate it, and I guess Iwant to know how do I say?
(03:10):
What what you do for a living? Thanks Jaming for having me. Yes,
I'm a dead dueler, right,and that tooler is actually a person
that attends that like everything that involvesthat, and now that has a long
(03:30):
yeah history, it comes like acultural history. We always have people they
would attend first and they would attendthat, and just over the last centuries
that just since that is more somethingmedicalized, we sort of forgot about that
that we actually need people that supportus and not in a medical way,
(03:53):
like just in all other ways,because it's had that that has a lot
of different aspects. What would getyou into this kind of work? Why
would someone choose this? I'm actuallycoming from mental health. I work since
more than thirty years mental health.I work overse clinical and non clinical here.
(04:15):
And actually it's a really personal storythat got me into and it was
my daughter lost one of her bestfriend's mom, and then my dad passed
away, he was overseas, butthen her grandfather here passed away, her
cop here passed away, and allthese people died like in a few months,
(04:41):
and she just I think she wasten years old and she just came
up with this question and said,Mom, what's happened when you died?
What do we do? What doI do? I'm a single mom.
I'm like, as you can hear, I'm from overseas, I raised my
kids on my own here and shejust came up with all these questions.
Then I started reaching out to peopleand I just found out people don't like
(05:03):
to talk about that in Australia andin my culture, I think that or
how I grew up, that wasmuch more present in life, and I
think we had a much more openconversation about it. I don't know how
it is these days, but youknow whatever, forty fifty years ago and
(05:24):
I just thought, I have tostart talking about that again, like we
have to invite that back into ourlives and take this scary part out of
it, like it's a natural part. Like there is a beginning, there
is a middle, there is anVD. Right, So where are you
originally from, Andrew, I'm fromSwitzerland, Okay, And you're saying in
(05:47):
Switzerland people view death a bit differentlythan we do in Australia. I would
say, so, like how myupbringing is yes, Like you know,
it's like or probably was my family, like you know, with with my
mother, we talked about that thatwas that was a part of life.
And I think it's also we haveto say in culture, that was always
(06:10):
a part of life, like youknow, we had we had different livings,
like you know, different generations wouldlive together and you know, there
was a child born, there wasan elder dad. Like that was just
and now I think since the sincethe industrial age, I think it's much
more that. Yeah, you know, it's it's that's why people go to
(06:31):
hospital to die, but they don'twant to die there. And in my
belief, we don't need hospitals liketo die, you know, we need
hospital to save lives, but ifthe time's there to shed the body,
then we don't need the hospitals.And we just don't have that anymore.
(06:51):
Like it just it's sort of gotlost. I think, yeah, we
just we just lost our connections,like and that's why we just did started
to be discarssing and nobody likes totalk about it anymore. If you look
back far enough in history, itwould be that if a family member passed
(07:15):
away, that the living family memberswould take care of their body and would
prepare them for burial and bury themand say goodbye and in their own way.
And now it's it's it's got thistaboo around it, like we don't
you know, often we you know, often we'll have closed casket. We
won't even see the body of ourrelative that's passed, and and we won't
(07:43):
be there certainly for any of thepreparation or involved in that at all.
It's completely hands off. And doyou think that that separating ourselves from this
has some kind of cost. Ithink it tas a big, big cost
on our lives, because I'm astrong believer if we really invite like that,
(08:05):
and you know, I'm like workingaround it, and you see,
I changed my mind, like youknow, I have how I want to
die, what's important, what's notOver the years, it's it's a process
and you know, you hear somethingand I think, oh, I never
thought of that. And but Ireally, for me personally in my personal
(08:26):
story, knowing how I want todie, it really helps me how I
want to live, you know,to know how my end is. I
know what I want in the middle, because I know it's like, yeah,
it's just you know, I forme, it's like it's sort of
probably be the game or something,but that you can do. Like you
(08:52):
know, Jamie, you go tothe doctor. I don't want to wish
anything. You're you, but whateverthe doctor says, Jamie, you have
six months to live. What doyou want the next six months? I
wait? Never thought about that.Take some postives. Do it with your
family, do it with friends,do it with it just said, come
(09:13):
on, we play these games,and then take three four postives and say
what do I want? What doI want in these six months? Is
it somebody I want to hug,somebody's a journey I want to take.
Is it a sorry I want tosay? Is it something I want to
learn? Is it something new Iwant to try? What do I want?
(09:35):
There can be little things and thentalk with somebody around and then ask
yourself the questions why don't you doit? See I do? I have
actually had this thought before, andI've thought, well, if I had
six months or twelve months to live, I'd want to empty out every savings
account of got sell all my assetsand just live it up. And I
(09:58):
can't do that right because I don'tknow when my hand date is and I'm
probably going to need money when I'meighteen ninety. If I live that long,
I'm going to need. I'm goingto need and I won't have the
capacity to earn as much. Soit can be a difficult thing to work
out. What is it I wantto do? I guess within the boundaries,
(10:18):
right is it? And is Seethat's where my question comes. Is
everything that you want to do buyingtoo money? I guess it costs money
to do things like i'd want tothat you want to do, but you
see that's why. But there arealso emotional stuff you want to do,
Like you know, there is thisfriend that you want to say, that's
(10:39):
this conversation you want to have withsomebody, the swim you want to have
at the beach, and you don'tdo like you know, we don't.
Yes, there are to be things, but how about it just start with
the smaller things. Look like visitthese frames. I haven't heard anything or
somebody that came and comes up tothe mind, like you know, it's
just go and looks at and yeahwhatever, see an exhibition that I wanted
(11:03):
to see? Like, yes,there are the big things, like you
know, but and we probably allhave that. But I for me,
it's like, you know, it'sthe little thing. It's like to be
in the presence, being in themoment, like what's important for me today
now? And if I know howmy end looks, then I find out
(11:24):
what's important to the day, Likecan I be a good person today?
Can I reach out to somebody youknow that I can, can I get
can I get this smile from somebody? Can I have a belly laugh?
You know? It's yes, thereare the big things, like you see,
that's why it's but just try itonce and even put that down,
(11:46):
you know, But then that's onone one thing. That's on one posted.
I empty my bank account and haveall the money and spend it.
But what you do with the otherthree, like, they're probably not the
big things. And that's why it'sjust an idea. Yeah, And I
think that's how I want a lotroads that we just start to think about
what do we really want in life? You know, what is important to
(12:09):
us? You're saying that just makesme think about I've got a lot of
friends that I need to make phonecalls to and return calls and just have
a chat about nothing. Yeah,well that's something I don't think about you
get so busy, you get socaught up in living and surviving and doing
(12:30):
what you need to do to getbuy in this world that you do put
a lot of things to one side, and your perspective would certainly change if
you had six months left. Andyou see, and it's the things like
I think, we are in ageneration. We accumulate all this stuff that
at the end of your life somebodyhas to take care of. You know,
when have your last looked at yourroles with all your stuff in it,
(12:54):
at your cupbets. There is somuch stuff that the world doesn't need.
And you work for agency each singlething that's in your cupboard, who
worked for it? You know?For each item you buy? You know,
And I think we get so caughtup so called life with all the
things we need, we actually forgetto live, like the real living,
(13:16):
like this real being present, beinghere, being alive, being, you
know, feel our breaths, youknow, feel our feelings. We forget
about it because you know, wewant to speak. Do you really think
at the end of your life youregret that you didn't have whatever car?
No, I'm not a card,so it wouldn't worry may at all?
(13:37):
A boat or whatever. But youknow, but I think at the end
of the life, you know,that's the conversation I have people regret not
to have taken the trip they wanted, not to have said the sorry they
want it, you know, havinga grudge towards somebody about a minor thing
(13:58):
and not talking with this person foryears. Like that's my experience. People,
That's what at the end of thelife people struggle with. You know,
it's often the connections they didn't havewith other people, Like you know
that the loft they didn't fail,the loft they didn't gain, the time
they didn't have to play with theirkids, the time they didn't have to
(14:20):
go, you know, fishing withyour mates the time. Yeah. Well,
as just said, having this phonecall with the person, Yeah,
because you were busy with life.Hmm. It's interesting that it's those small
things that people regret. Like Iguess I would have thought that people would
regret saying, oh, I alwayswanted to drive a Ferrari and I never
(14:45):
did. And you're saying that atthe end of life, Like people don't
wish that they had bought a biggerhouse, or saved saved more money,
or or worked harder. It's likethey're not thinking about it. I never
met anybody. They are probably peopleout there they think, but you see,
you cannot take the house with you. You live it here and you
don't need it. Like what wasthe big house when you think the money,
(15:09):
the house you had to work for, this big house that you have,
could spend with your I don't know, jem, if you're married,
that you could have spent with yourwife, with you, with your parents,
with your kids, with you know, making memories. Because at the
end, yes, there is ahouse there, but at the end,
you need the bed you need youknow, you need a place where you
(15:30):
can rest your head, where youfeel safe. But you know, I
think also, like you know this, we're not there for our kids anymore,
like you know, but that's whyboth parents have to work, the
kids have to go to to takecare, the kids have to go to
So I build really strongly believe thesepeople do all a fantastic job. You
know, we outsource our our cooking. But my experience is really at the
(15:56):
end of the day, it's theconnection you have. It's like, you
know, it's these people, ourfriends, our family, because you know,
you don't need anything else, likeyou know you have usually if you
don't get buried or burn naked,you know you have one shirt and that's
it. Nothing else. You sortof born naked and you die naked.
(16:21):
And in the middle you accumulate allthis stuff that you probably don't need.
Like I just did last week.I did a clean out with my daughter,
Like we just went to the cupboards. And we have a small house,
but I just think it's so beautiful. I have now draws, not
big draws, but I have afew little draws. It's just empty.
(16:45):
There is just nothing in it.And you see that gives room, it
keeps room, it sets you free. It's like and if you clatter ourselves
in with all this stuff we don'thave, we don't have room to breed
it. We don't have room tooto feel some new things and some new
ideas and some new feelings, somenew people. That's why for me,
(17:07):
it's like that, Yes, that'sand there is a lot of practical things
we have to talk about that,but that's why, that's why I'm so
so passionate about to talk it becausefor me, it shows me so much
how I want to live or that'smy that's my journey. It sounds very
much like like minimalism. Are youare you into that you're you're aware of
(17:30):
I'm definitely, I definitely more andmore are attracted to other things than material
things. Yes, that's definitely Andthat probably comes out of a lot of
fear. Like you know, Iended up from the other side of the
world here with two kids and wassuddenly responsible for two kids. I had
(17:51):
to make a living, I hadto put food on the table, had
to pay bills. What's happening ifI'm sick? I only had casual jobs.
That just you know, a lotof fear, and I had to
start to work around it. Andthen I just so yeah, but you
know, and that's why my daughter, we had a lot of us it
(18:11):
is as you have as a familyconflict. But she was a fantastic teachers
because she asked me. I justrealized, I want to be here for
my kids. And yes, whenthe kids a little they both probably get
cranky because they didn't got the tractorlike that other one, or they didn't
got the new iPhone or whatever.There is like you know, yes,
(18:32):
kids and you know kids are reallygood. We have to be honest.
He really could to work if ourguilt. You know, they know us,
they know us, they know howto make you feel guilty. They
do. Yeah, you know,I don't know. Do you have kids.
I don't. Yes, I gotI just got the one. One
boy and he's uh, yeah,he's six years old now, and yeah,
(18:53):
he definitely wants things. But doyou believe when he's thirty, he
will tell to you, oh,you know, I'm still cranky that you
didn't buy the iPhone fifteen for me. I don't think you remember, No,
that's why. But do you thinkhe will remember that you went,
you know, to the zoo withhim, or that you went and build
(19:15):
a fire together and had some marshmallows. And you see, that's where I
come from. I think we forgotabout this. We just And that's why,
because we have so much fear ofthat, we just keep ourselves busy
with everything and clutter around ourselves inwith so much stuff that we don't have
to feel these feelings, and becausenobody talks with us about it, like
(19:40):
I grew up like That's why Iwas probably a bit more in my culture.
But you know, you have tobe good, you have to be
feel good, you have to bewhatever like you know, it's like people
were not good to deal with,you know, help when you're angry or
when you fear full or like youknow, we haven't learned to talk about
(20:03):
this this animal or this these thing. So like you know, when kids
lose their animals, then yeah,I just you know, we don't.
We try to support them, butnot really. We often say you will
be all right, you will beall right, like you know, or
that's why I often we say okay, we're gone buy another one. But
you know, to do the realwork around stuff like with kids we've lost,
(20:26):
like losing a friend, Like that'swhy it starts when we are very
little. We don't talk about lossand grief. It's like if you fail
at something or the key you alwaysget awards when you do really well.
You know, you never get awardswhen you fail. But at the end
of the day, that's where youlearn, like you know much more in
(20:49):
life. And I think that wejust I think we just lost a lot
of connections. We've just we livein these little family units these days.
You know, everybody in a house, like some people are probably more Yeah,
like if you live on the countryside, you probably have a bit more
contact with your neighbors or like youknow, through the kids with schools and
(21:12):
stuff and later on. But likethese days, like you know, people
working from home, we are veryisolated and we just don't do this work
anymore, I think. And that'sthat's where I see myself, like just
to be there and be if peoplehave questions. And another thing is about
(21:33):
that. I think everybody has astory to tell about that everybody, but
we don't hear these stories. Wedon't take the time to listen that Like,
that's my experience if I talk withpeople that they talk about like losing
their grandparents or losing whoever, andthey just you know, they haven't been
(21:55):
heard as a kid. How canyou be heard as an adult because you
just think you just talk about it. My great grandmother when she went,
I want to just tell you thisyear she was she was in a nursing
home and she was lying on thebed and she was ninety nine, and
she had her eyes closed and shewouldn't wake back up. And the nurses
said said, oh, you know, come on, wake back up.
(22:17):
We want to see you make itto one hundred. We want to see
your letter from the queen, becauseif you turn a hundred In Australia,
the queen writes you a letter.So they said, oh, we want
to see the letter from the queen, so stay with us. And my
grandma, Grandma, without opening hereyes, just said no, defiant right
to the end. And I justthink that's hilarious and that that's her.
(22:40):
And she was determined, No,I won't make it to one hundred.
I don't want to. I'm not. She was ready And what a beautiful
story do you see that? Sowe have to share these stories like they
are so important for us to hear. It informs our hearts like it's so
important and it really makes us feelalive. And I think that's the important
(23:03):
part. So as a as adeath dueler, are you there initially for
the person who is on their wayout, who is dying, and then
and then once they're gone, you'rethere for the family? Is that how
it works? Are you there morefor the family or more for the person
who's going? Look, that's whythere is actually that do us? They
(23:23):
are review around and I think everyeveryone is a bit different or it's different
what they do, like you know, some they do us they really do
the work, like with the person. They're there for the person. Often
it is also a bit like amediator, like between the person that dies
(23:45):
and the family because especially if wetalk about that, like you know,
propers through old age or if somebodyhas an illness and there is like there
is a time frame like you know, because we have different Yeah, we
see a different like you know.And my experience is also often like old
(24:07):
conflicts comesuddenly up, like between siblingsor between different family members are involved,
especially if the person probably cannot reallytalk to themselves anymore than it's especially with
ill us or with old age,that the person actually is ready to go,
(24:29):
but the one step back is theythey're not ready to let them go,
like you know, they want tohold on to them. And I
think that's why that that's one partand then you see that's why I'm somebody
I actually I like to talk withhealthy people about that. For me,
it is important that we really talkabout it. I also, I think
(24:52):
and important because coming from mental health, like it's like that people have a
voice, you know. I thinkin the whole medical system like that that
we can say okay, the doctortells us that, but you know that
we probably go for an ask andfor another opinion, and that we learn
to make our own life, youknow, because we go to the doctors
(25:15):
and they don't have the time toyou know, spend really this. You
know, that's why the time andhave these conversations. They take as much
time as they can. But it'sour medical system is not built for that
anymore. Like we all see thatjust to go to a GP, they
all these days there is a timelimit, like you even have to book
(25:36):
a long appointment. You know,it's not like that you just can go
to the doctor. And and Ithink I was in the in the hospital
like that's why. And I thinkfor me, I see to be there
like and just to listen what peoplereally need. And that's why because it
is individual and I don't even thinkthere is a right and the wrong what
we want in life, but it'sI think to know what our options are.
(26:02):
I think that's important. And thatwe learned to speak up what's important
for us and see and find theanswers, like and that's why that And
then there are adults that do us. They write down stories like you know,
if somebody had a life and said, look like my grandkids are still
little. There is so much stuff. I want to give to them,
(26:23):
but you know I probably don't,are you. I want to tell you
my story, like you know mykids. My mom was dead before my
kids were born. Like that's whymy father was always easy. He came
and visited us, but he gotthe mentor they were little when my parents
(26:44):
left, and that's why my daughterhad they were older. That's like,
and I'll her grandma is or mysons like the grandma's still alive. But
you see they're also teenagers and they'renot that interested in these stories. But
then later on you actually suddenly youknow, maybe we've thirty you are interested
what's happened, and there is somuch risk. That's why they are people
(27:07):
that they write down the stories.There are people like you know, that's
why they go and visit people likeI think that doula can work with people
at home, but that doula canwork with people also in hospital, and
they do all I can work withpeople in the host spice, like you
know, that's why. And Ithink just each doula has also their specialty
(27:32):
and that's why it's more probably likean attraction, like somebody is more attractive
to their style and feel more supportedby this person and the other one needs
somebody else. And then but yousee also like that's why it's often like
to organize everything, like if it'sreally somebody wants to die at home,
because there is a lot of organizationinvolved and that leads a lot of people.
(27:56):
That's not the job that one ortwo people can do. Ooh,
Like you see, reality is thatmost people, when you ask them,
they want to die at home.But the reality is most people die in
hospital. I think there is aroundI think around seventy to eighty percent of
people actually would like to die athome, but I think it's only around
twenty people. They really diet tooand the rest dies in hospital. And
(28:19):
then you see there is the dyingprocess, like you know that because there
are stuff involved at the end ofthe life, like how people react and
family members of friends they start topanic then during the ambulance and then the
ambulance has to take them. Butyou see, there is something like in
New South Wales. I mainly talkabout New South Wales because that's where I
(28:42):
live and that's I know, butthere is something like an ambulance care plane,
like you know that at the endof life, you can do an
ambulance care plane. That means ifyou're panicking and worry about your loved one,
you can ring the ambulance. Butboth like signed an agreement that the
ambulance come and they just can't tellyou yet not that's okay. They actually
(29:06):
can leave you there. But ifyou haven't signed one of these ambulance kale
planes or emergency planes, the ambulancehas to take you to hospital and then
they have to give you medication becausethey don't want you that you die in
the ambulance. And if it's alot of stuff going on, and we
all know emergencies are all full thesedays, and if you're come in because
(29:29):
you are in the dying, you'renot on the priority list. It sounds
horrible when I say that, though, but you know, we have to
start to be aware of stuff likethis. Then you die somewhere in the
hallway, not with your family,and you see that you're unwanted. We
start this conversation because there is stuffthat you can do. And you see
it's like you plan everything, likeyou plan your day and sometimes it doesn't
(29:53):
goes to plan, but it's stillgood. It still gives a sort of
the security, you sort of havea plan or you can go back to
the plane. And I think forme that's with the end of life too,
like what is really important? Whatdo I want? Like you know,
what medical invention do I want?What medical invention I don't want?
That we talk about these things likeyeah, when do I want reanimation?
(30:18):
When I don't want? Like especiallywith accidents, like you know, if
somebody has a car accident, familymembers suddenly have to do decisions and you
never talked about it, and sojust as much you could be an advocate
for the person who's who's dying.Yeah, that's what it is. And
but I think you know as moreas we start now talking like we two
(30:40):
talk about that, you know,you can think about it then make yourself.
You can write it down like youcan do an advanced care plane,
and then you just change it again. For me, there are sort of
three parts, Like one is thelegal part, like the financial part,
like you know what is like witha real what's happened with the finances?
What all this stuff? And thenthere isn't everyday stuff like often we see
(31:04):
that with couples. Probably I don'tknow if this days it's a bit better
because both work and both face pills. But you know, with other people,
often just one person paid the bill. The other person does not even
know who the electricity provider is,you know, and then or like with
bank accounts, the bank account isin one name. That means if this
(31:26):
person dies or is unable because theyare in a corna in the hospital,
stuff just gets frozen and then theother person doesn't have access to these bank
accounts. I never thought about that. Yeah, you see, that's why,
and that's where I see myself oras at that tour, just that
we start to do this, likeyou know, they say, now I
(31:48):
don't know if it's already happening orit will happen soon, but that there
will be more that people on Facebookthan alive. Yes, yeah, this
and there is actually there is nowa function on Facebook that you can you
can memorialize account. Yeah, yeah, And I think that's why there is
(32:09):
so many things out there we don'tthink about. And if you write it
all down, I think, youknow, if if if you have this
all written down, like that's mybank account, that the provider and have
this advanced care somewhere accessible for peoplelike then they just can take this paper
and look it through and you knowit's whatever. Every six months or every
(32:31):
twelve months. You don't have todo that every day. It just goes
through and think, oh, yeah, my my phone provider has changed,
Like you know, that's why ifyou're ing up and you have a phone
and then I often they say,oh, are you the account hold or
not? Okay, we cannot dealwith you. Well the account holder is
that there is in a coma,there are little things, you know,
(32:52):
and then it's also what you want, what's important for you, Like if
you get dick, is it yes, if there is a change that I
get better, that I want thistreatment, But I don't want that,
like you know, I don't wantthat people have to to change me.
I don't want that people have toto feed me. For one person that's
probably okay, for another one it'snot. But we suddenly leave to other
(33:15):
people that they have to do withtraditions for us, and they're probably not
even comfortable. It's also like,you know, we have different forms of
families these days, like you know, with hatchwork, families with the same
sex or partnerships, like you know, they in the legal system. As
(33:36):
soon as you get sick. Theyprobably like, you can be have a
partner, but you're not married orwhatever, and then suddenly you're probably even
strange to your family or haven't hadmuch to do, but you were together
with your partner for ten years andthen suddenly they say, yeah, but
we don't want that because you don'thave you know, the legal rights to
(33:58):
do so. Like And that's whyI really think we have to start to
talk about it and bring that inhmm. So in your work, when
you're when you're conversing with people whoare close to death and they and they
know that it's coming, well,do you find is there is there a
(34:19):
common emotion or is there a commonthread of things that people want to talk
to you about? Is very individual? I think that it's very very individual,
yes, am I. But that'swhy it's also often, you know,
combined with mental health. It's likethey like to have you there,
but sometimes they just even like tohave you there but a bit distanced.
(34:44):
Like you know, we have sometimesthis idea we have to hold the person's
hands, but that's not always thecase, because we keep them here as
long as we hold them. Butyou know, some people they're sort of
comfortable that you're probably in the sameroom but in back. And then some
people are comfortable, like you knowthat there are people, especially when people
(35:06):
die at home, that they arein another room, that they probably can
hear them, but that they're nottoo close because it's too much. And
you see that way. It's allit's all different and people react different,
and that's why you have to writeit down, like you know. And
I think also like it's often becauseit's the family. It's if kids are
(35:28):
involved or other ones. It's likeyou know that they start doing probably white
rituals again, like you know whatwe can do because but you know,
sometimes it's also like that we canwrite something for them. But for me,
often people like especially the ones youknow, they are sick. Often
they do have medication, like youknow, they even sort of come in
(35:51):
and out of consciousness. Some peopleeven say, oh, they're psychotic.
I don't really believe they are psychoticwith my experience like working with with people,
for me, it's often that theyjust because they sometimes talk about somebody
that died before, and I don'tknow if they start you know that they
are in a between world. Ireally don't know, Like, but I
(36:15):
think often like the people I actuallysupported that they start to be the try
they could sort of come in andout of consciousness over the last few days,
and you sort of you you know, you sort of your sense,
like your sense like that, youknow that they sort of transition into something
(36:37):
else. And then you know that'swhy when when when you see them that
that person, you see that somethingsort of left, like you know,
it's really it's hard to describe,but yeah, that that's sort of my
my experience that I had. Likeand you know, if if there was
a sudden that yes, then thereis probably a different support would like you
(37:00):
know, just to deal with familism, like you know, what their options
are, what they want to havedone, Like you know, that's why
then the questions if you want aburial, if you want if you want
a cremation. I think it's alsolike you know that that's why you have
this conversation what do you want?Do you want a burial, do you
wanna do you want a cremation?How should that? How should that be?
(37:24):
Like for me, it's something thatI also always think it's interesting,
like you know, we put allthese flowers onto coffins that has actually that's
also a tradition and the thing,the reason why there are so many flowers
is because the bodies would like youknow, decay and they would smell so
(37:45):
strongly, and that the undertaker couldtake to their jobs. They put all
these flowers there. Well, neverthought about that. But these days you
have actually cool plates and cool roomsand you don't. And that's why sometimes
saying, look it is nice,but yeah, why don't you give the
flowers while the people are still alive? Like, but people don't not because
(38:09):
you know, it's something so sotypical, you know, we give flowers.
But that's actually the reason was justput the smell. Never thought about
that ever. It's just an acceptedthing that you throw flowers onto the coffin,
being that you're there, when whenpeople are actually dying in have you
(38:31):
ever seen any evidence of afterlife?I mean you see a lot of you
hear about a lot of people whotalk to or about people that have died
long before them. Do you thinkthey're actually do you think they could be
actually seeing them or or do youhave any evidence of where they're going?
(38:52):
I don't have any evidence, butI did. That's why I see people
taking con plack like with these otherpeople, like you know that already went
before them. Yes, and yousee it's it's as soon like you know,
we come to this planet and wetake a breath th and then the
(39:16):
life actually ends with a breas out. That's how it is, like you
know, and usually at the end, that's why often people get panicked.
There is a sort of like arattling noise to the breast. Yeah,
you hear about that, and yousee that. Try it just goes longer
until the next impress and then theoutbreass and then thats just But then for
(39:39):
me, it's often I have thefeeling like that that that that I have
to open the window. I dotalk with people about that before. But
for me, I often have thisfeeling that that something can be released.
Yes, yeah, but it's notlike you know, it's not like I
don't have a visual but but yousee that there is something you know leaves
(40:04):
the body and yeah, yeah,so do you do you believe in an
afterlife yourself? Look, I stilltalk with my mother, yeah, and
I always think, you like,because I had a very well we had
a challenging relationship when I was akid, and we had a lot of
(40:27):
argument a lot of fighting, alot of different opinion. I was with
my mom the last month of herlife, and we talked about like we
spent hours with each other on thebed that she told me stories, and
I'm forever grateful for this time,like I see, the last probably three
months of her life, he madeup for a whole life, Like you
(40:50):
know, we really I'm to thisstate rateful that I had this time with
her. Like but that's why Ioften say today, like it's really good
to talk with Mom because we don'thave the arguments anymore. But I'm like,
you know, I just I justwent this morning, I went down
to the beach, and you know, I just it was so beautiful that
the sun, that the ocean,and I just just said thank you,
(41:14):
Like she's still present in my life. Yes, you know, if I
really listen, I know what answersshe will give me. And sometimes I
like them and sometimes I don't likethem. But you see, the good
thing is I don't have to fightwith her anymore, and I can do
my own decision, but I alsohave to live with the consequences. But
I definitely believe there is something andI often believe that's why we have so
(41:39):
much turmoil on this world because wedon't do these transitions right anymore. We
like in so many cultures, likeyou know, they have these procedures like
especially like in India and stuff likeyou know how long the body has to
be around. And I think evenwe had that, like you know,
there was the body, then youhad that long at home and then prayers
(42:02):
like that's why religion is often withprayers and with all this stuff. But
I think because you know, tohelp these bodies to transition. And that's
why I think we just really lostat all because we don't have that much
religion in our lives anymore. Andin some cultures it's probably still much more.
(42:23):
It's very clear, like you knowthey have these days how after how
many days that you do prayers again. But I definitely believe there is something
and you see, that's why Ibelieve, Yes, I can live to
my kids are nice keepsake or whatever, and you know, it's probably nice
(42:44):
for them if they don't have theburdens of you know, have to clean
up too much after yourself. ButI think it's different things that believe as
a legacy, like and how weare in other people's conscious like, and
I think that's like building memories together. I do believe some people puzzled of
(43:06):
in between sometimes and have struggled todo the whole transitional like yes, that
left and the body is dead,but they haven't had the good a proper
transition. But I think there arepeople out there that can help. But
you see that, right, that'sa really personal belief, and it's I
don't have any proof, like that'sno science behind it or anything. That's
(43:29):
just my experience that I have.But working in mental health so many years,
it's just there is like my mindor my what I see, it's
it's just it's just a fraction ofwhat's there. And now just because I
(43:49):
can't see it doesn't mean it isnot there. I more and more strongly
believe in that there are a lotof boundaries in our mind and that's through
our upbringing, our racing, thatwe are sort of, yeah, sometimes
a bit narrow minded, and thatthere is definitely much more out there that's
(44:09):
untee or yeah, yeah. Iused to read a lot of dragon Lance
Chronicles. It was this fantasy bookseries, and they had this race on
there that were like it had anadventurous spirit and we're always looking for new
experiences. And they saw death andthis stuck with me. They saw death
(44:30):
as the last great adventure. You'regoing to find out what happens now.
And because the rest of us wedon't know. We guess, we think,
we have our own ideas, wehear other people's ideas, and maybe
there's a heaven, maybe there's ahell, maybe there's nothing. Maybe there's
(44:52):
finally be reunited with all those oldpeople and old pets that left us.
It's an adventure, and I thinkit's an exciting chapter, you know.
And there's some people that even saythat dying you're going home, that you're
only here for a short time andyou're going to live for eternity somewhere else.
Do you think do you think thatwhen when a pet passes away,
(45:15):
it's it's such a sad time,it's awful, and you don't want your
children to be upset? Do youthink that telling the children that the pet's
gone to live on a farm thatwas a common thing to do back in
like I guess the eighties. Youknow, I was like, oh,
that the dog's gone to live ona farm. And because that, you
(45:37):
don't want your child to be upset. But are we are we robbing them
of the opportunity to learn how tomourn by doing that? I think,
so, why don't we want ourkids to be upset? Because you don't
deal with your kids, Felix?Is it like, why don't you want
your kids upset? It's it's it'sit's a feeling that these kids have,
(46:02):
Like they have all the right tofeel upset. They have the right to
be angry, you know, theyhave the right to through go through all
these emotions. That's why I reallythink we have to tell already the kids
like that's a part of life,like you like, and that's why it's
actually even like you know, youare born and whatever your cats you know
(46:29):
was born. You remember she wasthis little kid then and you know,
cats that just don't have such along life as we have. But then
make a beautiful ritual with them,like you know, don't tell them they
went somewhere else because they they thinkyou took it off them. But if
you tell them that they just diedbecause their body just didn't need anymore,
(46:49):
because they go into another world,but they still can connect with them,
you know, then you know thesedays you I think of the animals they
are cremated. And then that's whyyou even can do keep sakes these days
out of fashiest the special companies theyactually specialized in keep sakes with fascist that
you do something like this, solike you bury them in the garden and
(47:13):
they probably can can do some rocksand paint some rocks and put them there,
and then and then tell the kids, like if you're said you can
even put there a little jair orsomething what they are comfortable with, and
say, look, if you said, you always can go and you still
can talk with them, like that'swhat I would do. I say,
just because they did, you stillcan talk with them and make make clear
(47:36):
that that they are loved and thatthey still can love these animals, and
that they that they can cry likeyou know, I think, I think
you don't want your kids to beupset. That comes out of your ego
that you want don't want your kidsupset because it's really hard to deal with
these feelings. But don't be robbedthese kids from something when you take his
(48:00):
feelings away, because they are feelings. Well, why do we have these
feelings? I think we are apart of life. But that's why we
just we don't want to deal withthem, like you know, we should
be always happy. And I thinkthere's so many things we can do like
that you said, come on,we write a story together about the door.
(48:20):
We make it drawing and then stillI think sometimes we still can can
talk about that, you know,can you remember, like you know,
whatever, how the cats ever everis like you know, we have Rosy,
it's our catches. I don't knowhow in the meantime she moved in
with us whenever I was a littlecatchy, and she she lives since then
(48:40):
with us. But we already talknow about that, like you know,
we are aware that Rosy probably doesn'toutlive us, that we outlive her,
and you see that, why ifwe start to normalize that and then make
the best that I enjoy the timeas long as you have them, you
know, the best out of that. It's a good, good lesson to
(49:02):
learn. And if you can learnit from a pet, then that,
I guess is practice for for enduringthose emotions when it comes that next time
it's not a pet, next timeit's it's grandma or grandpa. And you
see the ritual, like you know, I don't know if you ever heard
like in the meantime you can cancan paint coffins like and what a lovely
(49:25):
thing for all the grandkids and allor nieces and nephews or whatever come together
and pay together the coffin or allrights and o like you know, that's
why in the meantime they have somany different options. It doesn't have to
be this odd traditional way. That'swhy doulers can show you, like what
else is there? Like people thesedays even have sometimes awake while they're still
(49:49):
alive, because they say, Iwant to be a part of the of
the fun. I want to hearall the nice things people have got to
say about me. Yeah, ifthere are any hope who what types of
people come to you as a deathdoler? What's your do you have a
(50:10):
typical customer? No? Look,one thing is we have to say because
we we we know, like peoplehave to pay me, like it's not
something like and and that's why I'mnot not in the thing to have a
free service, Like that's why I'ma single month with kids and stuff.
(50:32):
But like that's definitely something you know, do you have to have certain but
you know it's it's it's really it'sall different people, like you know,
it's it's probably mainly mainly women forme, like here in Australia, I
think it's more likely women want toask. I often it is like what
(50:57):
something? What I often hear it'slike I don't want to be a burden
to my family, like you know, and I don't want that they see
my sadness. I don't want tosee that they see my tears. And
for me, it's always like,but you know, it's actually nice to
sorry sometimes I have to laugh,but you know, it's nice to cry
(51:19):
together. I know, I getthat, you know, And I think,
but it's often I think the familyis probably be the way they're not,
like you know, they're not closelike in Australia such a big country,
like you know, especially with elderpeople, like that's why they have
the family that they're lives somewhere downin Melbourne or in Brisbane or wherever they
(51:40):
are, they just cannot just popin and be there. And then I
think it's probably people that are curious, like you know, I still you
that's why they've already done some workaround it and know they want to start
talking about it. Often people stuffhappened to them in their life, like
you know, they had some majorlife and went that sort of sort of
(52:06):
formed them, or yeah, they'reon their lives. I think that's often
that is like you know, Ithink it's probably no people that live sort
of in a pleistful ignorance kind oflife. Like it's probably more curious people,
as you said, like you know, they have questions, as you
said, oh you know, isthere en after life? Is there something?
(52:28):
You know? It's yeah, Andsometimes it's just yeah, like you
see, sometimes I just have normalconversation with people just and then they contact
me, or sometimes it's referred tosomebody like you know that a friend talks
with a friend and says, oh, my mom really struggles, and then
I get sort off the phone numberto make a contact with them. And
(52:50):
then yeah, some people they reallywon't want the guidance through the whole time.
And then some people, yeah,you just probably yeah, it be
a bit of an advisory, givethe most ideas where they can reach out
and other options they are like inthe meantime, there is a lot of
other things there are out there wherepeople can now that's like yeah, there
(53:15):
where we talk about brief and loss. That's interesting and it's it's important work
by the sounds of it, Imean in terms of like helping people from
an emotional point of view, tohelping helping the person who's passing find some
peace, helping the family find somepeace, healing some reeferens, and even
(53:37):
just down to the practical things likehow do you get access to someone's bank
account? Where do you get adeath certificate from? I wouldn't know these
things. You know, what aboutthe loans that this person's got, do
we need to have them? Howdo we organize to have them paid out?
These These are technical things that alot of it's going to hit you
(53:59):
after it happens. And I thinkto have some support would be a wonderful
thing for the people left behind.And it sounds to me like you can
be of a great service to peoplethat while they're here, and even then
for their family members after they're gone. And we'll definitely have all the links
to your contact details in the shownotes, people will find your website.
(54:22):
But it's got to be really rewardingwork, right, You've got to feel
good about what you do. You'redoing something really really important. Look,
I think it's such a privilege forme. It's a privilege if somebody chooses
with me to spend this time likebecause that people often shared and stories and
(54:45):
that's just beautiful tragic sometimes but lifestories. But you know, just to
have to trust and be with somebodyto be in this transition. I truly,
truly feel blessed can dole this work. Yes, I think it's just
it's it's a gift. Like forme, it's really really a gift and
(55:07):
also like a really good reminder aboutthe impermanent of life. I think that's
something really important today. And witheach person it's always it's like I learned
something new. It's just yeah,thanks so much for taking the time to
have a chat with me about thistoday. And I hope that this opens
(55:27):
up some conversations that people are uncomfortableabout having because I guess when I go,
I want people around me to havea sense of sadness, but I
don't also want to be creating allnegative emotions. I hope that people can
remember the things that I did tomake them laugh or make them smile,
or make them feel good about themselves. I want to leave that kind of
(55:50):
legacy behind and I think that Ithink that death doesn't have to be a
morbid, scary thing all the time, right, you see, and it
it affects everyone, like people alwayssaid, like text and that is unavoidable.
I'm not the chuol with the text, like some people really can avoid
them. But you know it islike that's what it is. Just that's
(56:15):
what it is, a part ofour life. You know, that's just
how it is. And I reallyreally believe if we start the conversation like
you see, even be like wetalked about that, but we had a
few laughs during the conversation, andthat's what it is. Don't take life
that serious, go on it lighthearted, just start like yeah, if a
(56:38):
doula start and end of life careplan, like they can't guide you through,
have this conversation. And that's whyit's not setting stone. You just
can you can change, you knowyou if you write it down today and
tomorrow you want something else, thatjust changes. That's nothing wrong. Like
(56:59):
if you think that's the medical decisionI want today, if it's really happened
and you ask it, you probablydon't want them, then change them.
You have all the right to changeyour opinions. Just start somewhere, just
start the conversation, start writing thethings down. There are also books out
there that can help you if you'renot comfortable to talk with a person.
(57:21):
But yeah, I really think startthe conversation, don't take a serious too
much, and just start probably withthe things you're comfortable and then go deeper
into the conversation. That's yeah,go from the practical side and then go
into the emotional side. And Ithink if you can let go a bit
of this fear, and if youhave got a bit organized, I really
(57:44):
truly believe we more alive, weare more here and more present because we
have a plan. We have aplan for the end of our life.
Like you know, that takes alot of fear, because fear is something
that holds us back. If youdo the decisions out of you, their
hold us back. Yeah, Andif we can set things up while we're
of sound mind and we are ina good place, then then we can
(58:07):
have them, have them in placefor when when it is our time.
And to be honest, none ofus know when that is exactly well,
not until you get a prognosis,I guess, and then and then you
do. But for a lot ofus, we just don't know when our
time's up, so yeah, Ithink too. I have these conversations ahead
of time is a valuable thing.So I really appreciate you taking the time
(58:30):
to have a talk with me today, Andrea. And as I said,
the links to your website will bein the show notes so people can find
you. Thanks so much for havinga chat. Thanks Jamie, it was
a pleasure to talk with you,and yeah, to take time out of
your life to talk with me aboutthat. I really feel grateful for that.
Thank you. Wow, I didnot expect that chat with Andrea the
(58:54):
Death Dueler to be as entertaining andenjoyable and uplifting as it was. You
know now I'm regretting that I almostdidn't talk to her because I thought,
oh, I might be a bitdepressing, it might be something we don't
want to hear about. But youknow, her philosophies on life are amazing.
(59:15):
Preparing for death can point us inthe right direction of how we want
to live, and thinking about ifwe only had a little bit of time
left can give us some real cluesabout what we want deep in our hearts
and our souls, what we wantin our life right now. Thank you
(59:36):
so much for listening into my show, and thank you to the people that
have subscribed and followed. I appreciatethat so much. You could go a
step further and help me build myaudience by sharing one of your favorite episodes
on your social media. That wouldbe so great if you would do that
(59:58):
for me. I appreciate it somuch. In the meantime, thank you
so much, just for being you, just for hanging out with me,
just for validating me sitting here inthis studio talking to myself. I appreciate
you. You're awesome. Bye.
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