July 28, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode of JPost sits down with..., we sit down with Gideon Igra, a leading figure in WIZO (Women’s International Zionist Organization) who is spearheading efforts to address men’s mental health in Israeli society. While WIZO has long been known for its work empowering women and children, Gideon’s work highlights an often-overlooked issue: the emotional and psychological well-being of men. Gideon shares his personal motivations for championing men’s mental health, the stigma that still surrounds the topic, and how WIZO is expanding its programs to support men who are returning to their families after military service. His work bridges the gap between traditional support services and the growing need for inclusive mental health advocacy. Join Yuval Barnea for a powerful and timely conversation about vulnerability, resilience, and why taking care of men’s mental health is essential to building a stronger, more compassionate society.
Learn more about WIZO here.
Hosted by Yuval Barnea.
Edited and produced by Yuval Barnea and Shifra Jacobs.
Learn more about our podcasts here.
Learn more about WIZO here.
Hosted by Yuval Barnea.
Edited and produced by Yuval Barnea and Shifra Jacobs.
Learn more about our podcasts here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is jPOS sits down with and In this episode,
we sit down with Gidon Gras, an expert educator and
facilitator who is currently facilitating A Father Is Born Project,
part of the Women's International Zionist Organizations commitment to men's
mental health. If you're someone who love is struggling with
their mental health, please see resources in the description of
this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, I'm you Val Barnair, producer Jpost Studios, and I'm
here with Gideon I, a therapist and group session leader
at the Women International Zionist Organizations. A Father Is Born
Program a program which aims to help reintegrate new fathers
back into society, back into their families, and help them
end their military service in a positive and constructive way. Giddy,
(00:43):
thank you for joining.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Us, Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
How would you describe your own words? The program A
Father is Mourn.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
So Father Is Born is a program for men in
a reserve duty and this continuous war who became father
during the war. So it's like this a double challenge
of transition from from military life, from compact zone into
(01:12):
family life and combined with the challenge of expanding the family,
whether it's their first born or or a second child,
and is.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
That something we're seeing a lot of in this war,
that there are a lot of new fathers who are
having children while they're in reserve duty.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
There's there's a big demand for the program.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Maybe tell us a little bit about how the program
came about? What what? How? How long has it been around?
And I'm sure I can guess what led to it,
but how how long has it been around and how
how did it come up?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
So we are now like yesterday, I've met with the
group that I'm facilitating, and this is the first group,
so it's been around for like two or three months.
How it came about? So, Vito that the program is
led by Viso.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Could you tell just in case people don't know what
that is.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Yeah, Visa it's like a very big organization for Zionist
women issues. I don't know how to say it, but
regarding to this programs is A is helping women for
many years, especially in terms of family life, motherhood, equal
(02:29):
rights and uh empowering women. And so in the war,
they started by supporting the women who were left behind
in the in the home with the kids under a
lot of pressure, and they came about, Okay, we need
to help the men as well when they come back.
(02:51):
I can say in general that it's like a we
can see in during the war, like a regression in gender.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
World and then are out fighting and the women, yeah,
stock looking after the kids. Yeah, Yeah, I've I've seen that.
I know a few people who that's that's basically been
the situation and not not for not They're they're very
progressive feminist women who I can see this isn't exactly
how they imagined their married life, going that the husband
is out all day for months at a time.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
And for many men as well, not how they imagined
their fatherhood. It's not how they're imagined their relationship with
the kids. And I think it's a very interesting and
complex time. I mean because and also like I think,
you know other other qualities of musculinity that many many
years were we were facing the how do you say,
(03:44):
like toxic side of it.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Toxic masculinity. Yeah, And this is a bit about bringing
some element of positive masculinity.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
And also I want to like doing some positive like
pr for for musculinity because we're all now I mean,
facing war and we need those men who are out
there looking after us.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
But we also need other men back home, ringing back.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Home, and the program is about helping them reintegrate back
into the families, back into their values, back into the
men they wanted to be.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Has that impact been come increasingly clear that these men
are being kept away from their families for such a
long time that it is actually hard for them to come.
Of course, I'm back. And would you say that's I
don't know how how much you might know, But is
it worse than in previous wars? Would you say this
is or is it more due to the length?
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I think, okay, So of course the length. It's not
only the length, it's the cycles. You know, the words
of cycles, because and I heard it from from many men,
from many reserve soldiers. And the impact of this circles.
(04:54):
It's not that you finish. I mean they finish and
they go back home. The shadow of the next coming
circle is already you know, looming the present because they
can't really just let go.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
They need to.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
They in a way they are preparing for the next circle.
So the length is a big part of it. And
also I think it's very different from a previous word
war in the manner of you know, we had a
very big differences all around the Western world and in
Israel as well, concerning the role of men in the
(05:31):
house the role of women. And all of a sudden,
the women are called back into the house and the
men are calling out. But the demands didn't really change.
Women is still expected to go out and work, and
the men still I mean they're you know, providing for
(05:51):
a physical security, but the more emotional and relationships security
is still part of the expectations from them self and
the surrounding this.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I just thought of this now, But is there any
element that some of them are maybe a little bit
embarrassed or upset that they aren't the ones earning the
money for their family anymore, that they're stuck basically in
an unpaid volunteer position for a long time and they
aren't actually earning. Is there do they talk about that
at all?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
I can say that one of the challenges is like
reintegrating back into civilian life. So we talked a bit
about the family space, and we'll go back to it later,
but it's very hard to merge back into the work
as well, and some of the employers are not aware
enough for the challenge that they're facing. The guys talk
(06:45):
about like a cognitive dysfunctioning. They came back from a
really different environment and they had to function both physically,
emotionally and cognitively in a whole different manner. And so
it's hard to go back into work. And as for
(07:07):
you a question about like more money wise, I mean,
I met with a couple of father that actually were
kicked off their jobs because they were absent for so long.
And whether it's like I think legally they have a
problem with it, but that they that they find a way,
you like, to go past it and to let them go.
(07:29):
Of course, that going back to the military and combat
zone is hard, but I think it's also important to
to face like the rewarding parts of it. They find
a lot of meaning, a sense of belonging. They're not alone.
They're part of a very big mission, national mission where
(07:51):
everything is very rigid and you know, and uncertain.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Do many of them feel conflicted about this that they
both see why they need to go back, but also
have difficulty going back.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Of course, it's just the point I was trying to
make it back back home. I thinks they're not as
clear as as as in the military, and of course
as a new father even more like what is my
role here? And if he was absent for many months
and you know, so the old system just life goes on.
(08:25):
So it's the void was filled with the different parts
of the family or a more role that the mother
took for herself, and so we really need to create
his own role again.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Especially if it's a young child that he hasn't been
there so.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Much, haven't been there so much, And it's always a challenge.
It's always like, of course it's a happy thing, yeah,
but it's also a crisis in the life of of
a man.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Is there one Is there any specific story or sort
of event that a lot of them talk about that
a lot of them experience sort of a very common
sort of feeling that I don't know, maybe missing the
child's first walk or words or something like this, that
a lot of them seem to be.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yeah, impact can say that a lot of they carry
a lot of guilt. Of course, they miss like important
milestones into the child's life. I heard like the circumcision. Yeah,
the one who misses his son a circumcision like first
(09:32):
steps for first words, of course, But more importantly I
think that that's it's always hard for a man to
connect with the child. I mean, the woman carries inside
her own body. She she already has a relationship relationship
(09:52):
with with the baby for nine months, and now it's
even harder. And and another point I want to make
it that while being in the military, being detached from
motion is like a really important function for your survival,
for your for for making things right. When you come
(10:16):
into the relationship zone, it's the exact exact opposite. In
order to reconnect with somebody, you have to be connected
to to yourself. So they and they don't want to
just you know, be function only like yeah, like a robot,
just doing the the going through the events and the Yeah,
(10:40):
they wanna they want to feel, and it's not always
easy because they were for many months. They made a
lot of mental effort to not feel, to be disconnected,
to avoid all sort of helplessness and and and fear.
And when they want to connect, so many times they
(11:01):
meet with all of this thing that they didn't want
to meet for a long time. And it's a complex situation.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Has there been previous efforts maybe by the IDEF or
by nonprofits to do this kind of work before.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, let's start that I think in comparison to previous war,
like part of my reserve in this war was to
do this circles of how do you say it would processing? Yeah,
which became like a huge part of this war.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
That's so so in the past it wasn't a huge like.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Yeah, in the past, it wasn't it wasn't a part.
And I think only like elite unit's got this attention
for their mental health, and now it's spread it much wider.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Do you think there's part of this is to do
with the general discussion that I would say people know us,
but it seems like everyone over the world is having
this about men's mental health. Do you think this has
been part of why it's increased.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I'm sure it is, and of course I viewed as
a very positive step. I think it's uh and this
program is part of it. It's it's part of our
responsibility as society to take care not only on the
physical health, but also for for the mental health of
(12:22):
of the warriors. And uh and and and again not
only the warriors. I met with people that were, you know,
like backstage work. They suffer from post traumatic symptoms because
many times, for many hours they had a lot of responsibility.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
And I have one friend who has it just from
the sound of drones and nothing else. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Wow, and again you know it's it's so we have
like a lot of more awareness for for this whole
issue of of of emotional impact of taking part of
a war. Yeah, and something that we need to work with.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Do you think there's been a wider discussion about this
in Israeli society? Because I know Israelis are actually quite
good about talking about their emotions I think, but not
always in the most constructive ways. Has that Do you
see it having an impact on wider Israeli society that
a lot of these soldiers are now going through psychological
(13:32):
treatment or going through this process of processing what's gone through.
Do you think that's having a wider impact on Israelis.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yes, I think it's part of a whole process concerning masculinity,
Like if we go back in a more traditional manners
of masculinity, so it's like you know, a lonesome rider
or onesome wolf who have to always manage us on
his own and never ask for helps is always is
(14:00):
I just watched the Bill barr a stand up, like
you men are allowed to be Okay, or angry. There
the two options, and of course underneath they carry the
whole spectrum of emotion. So it's as a part of
a wider change. And in Israel, especially in the last
(14:22):
couple of years, we have a very big change concerning
the PUTSD on a military background, I think, like I
don't know a lot of people. For me, I really
liked Kagan that the comedian who talks about it, so
it becomes much more legitimate is to speak up. But still,
of course there's a lot of shame and loneliness surrounding
(14:46):
the I mean, I don't want to make it like
a brighter than it is. So there's an improvement, but
still a lot of men stay alone, never ask for help,
think that something is wrong with them. And this is
a huge part of of our our choosing of of
(15:08):
a group setting, because it's much easier for a man
to take part of a group then to go on
a one on one one and not one on one session.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Is there a difference between sort of more religious soldiers
and less religious soldiers in this.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
It's an interesting question. I must say that from my
experience now, but I do know that like from literature
and theory, like a huge part of resilience is values
and belief. But belief in values are not only religious.
I mean people can be secular, but but the sense
(15:50):
that then the reality they're facing is a part of
their own choice, something that they are loyal to. That's that.
Of course it's hard, they have difficulty that they pay prices,
but you know they own it. You feel that this
is this is something that this is who I want
(16:10):
to be. This is part of my set of values.
It's a big part of being a resilient.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
So you started describing a little bit, Why why don't
you walk us through what happens in a typical session,
how how it starts, what's the topics of discussion, and
if you've got anything interesting that you can tell us
from any of them without revealing anyone's personal information.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
So we do have like subject for each group session,
but of course always try to be as flexible as
possible with what is being currently alive within the within
the men, we usually start with some kind of grounding,
(16:57):
physical grounding. We practice long long sessions, all sort of
emotional regulation exercise. It's always with with something physical, and
we talked about we talk about different issues like anger management,
how to communicate oneself oneself emotions and needs. First of all,
(17:22):
it's hard enough to communicate it to yourself and later
on to somebody else. But but a lot of the again,
it's it's not uncommon during I don't know to say
peace days, but it's never been peace days. But but
before October seventh, it's always been past hard. But now
(17:42):
it's even harder for for men to, you know, to
to own their own emotions. So so doing the sessions.
And we speak first of all about this, like what
what do I need? What do I feel? And sometimes
and men want to avoid the answers because they are
(18:06):
not masculine, because I feel helpless and feeling I think
this is like one of the most forbidding a feeling
for a man to feel helpless. And of course it's
inevitable during life. You don't know always what you do.
And and the way I like market this litening to
(18:30):
them is that and it's true, it's an act of
taking responsibility. If you're a father, if you want to
be a man in this world, you have to take
responsibility for your action, for your feelings. And you can't
do it. I feel in denial.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
And is that something you found is quite effective at
countering this maxculinity, asking people to take responsibility for their emotions.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yes, and and and also the group is very effective
because it's and it happens very quickly, you know, it's
always I've been facilitating men groups for many years now,
and I get the reaction many times from women like
so you just sit there for three hours and in silent.
And the fact is that men know how to talk
(19:16):
their emotions. They find a lot of value in speaking
their emotion and they give incredible support for each other.
But they just need the right conditions, which is not
that often are given to them.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
It feels like what I'm hearing is that a lot
of these men sort of they want to discuss their emotions,
They want to discuss it in a non toxic, responsible way,
but they sort of lack the space to do it.
There's not sort of a you know, it's sometimes quite
hard to talk to your own friends about it, and
it can be also much harder to talk to your
own family about substance. So are you saying that there's
(19:53):
sort of not maybe there's a need for a space
where men groups of men can come together to discuss
things like this.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, exactly. And in this space, you know, it's a
judgmental space, and every time somebody speaks up, you know,
the level of trust is rising up. The level of
shame is like lowering. You know, they are I mentioned earlier,
(20:23):
the sense of belonging, being part of something. I think
part of what we're trying to do is take they
are coming in this way, we have like a big advantage.
They already have this positive experience of being part of
a manhood of like their brother in arms. So we
want to shift this a sense of belonging, of trust
(20:47):
and shift it into civilian life where you can trust
your brother not only to protect you, have your back,
like physically, but also to support you with your daily
dilemmas as a father, the partner.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Do you think this is something that could that the
army should be implementing something like this, like on a
wider scale of having these kind of post army groups
in a sense.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
I don't know if if the army, but I but
I yeah, but but definitely the like the country and
the whole. Okay, so I don't know like the exactly,
but but but of course this is a part of
the responsibility. You're sending your men out there, and not
not only men, and I want to you know, yeah,
(21:37):
of course there are also women in reserve duties who
who are also facing very hard challenges and having difficulties
integrating back back home. And of course it's a minority.
But this minority is the society is very blind to
you because it's the minority. People are not aware enough
(22:02):
of women face face challenging challenges coming back from reserve
duty as well. And back to your question, of course,
it's a it's a it's a it's our responsibility as
a country, as a society, you know, to help them
go back home and and it's part of our resilient
(22:26):
as a society. You know, we know it when when
we neglect it. Yeah, so like people we have, you
have violent issues like domestic violence, you have.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Suicides, and yeah, that's yeah for sure. I remember the
first the week after I make Alia, there was a
soldier who and that's it that that happened the week
after I moved, and that for me really gave me
the big impact of yeah, there there has to be
(23:00):
some sort of process at the end of the army
because clearly a lot for a lot of people that
they don't leave the army in such a great state.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
And again I think I don't want to make the
picture too bright, but there's a very we progressed a lot.
We did a long way as a society. There's many
soldier going through you know, even if it's just something.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I've definitely noticed that as some of my reservest friends,
who I would not have said would have been the
most emotionally open people, I've definitely become more willing to
discuss things. And I think partially because they'd see that
so many other people are also experiencing similar things, they
feel slightly less alone. But also this what you're describing,
(23:48):
this sort of societal change that we're having towards this
type of discussion.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
And the fact that the army, you know, as for me,
it was extremely meaningful part of reserve duty. I facilitated
such groups because it's for for me personally. I was
a combat soldier back in the days and for many
years as a reserve. For instance, like okay, you know
(24:14):
like a stamp, have a quality stamp that this is important,
this is part. This is not something like how do
you say nice to have this is this is a
part part of our security.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
This is this is a must.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
That's yeah, this is a must. And and then when
the army does that, you give a very profound message
due to the soldier that yeah, don't be this is
this is part of your responsibility. This is part of
our responsibility to take care of your mental health as well.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
How much influence have you had from foreign programs? Have
other programs saying in the United States or maybe even
Ukraine where there's similar things going on that you've drown
influenced from, or have you influenced any of these?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
So personally, I'm not I don't know. The program Father
Is Born is with the help of a doctor actor
who's in Israeli and for many years he studied like
men who domestic violence And I'm not sure with the.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Like no, I'm I'm just but no.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
But it's a really interesting question because it's something that worldwide,
worldwide phenomena that we're all experiencing.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
One thing you've been talking a lot about is this
toxic masculinity, And we also hear a lot of times
that goes hand in hand with a male loneliness epidemic.
Do you hear a lot about it in the West?
How is that sort of impacting the soldiers. Is there
a element of them when they're coming back, falling into
bad patterns, patterns of of isolating themselves and refusing to
(26:10):
see friends and family discourse.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Yeah, So I want to say something about toxic masculinity later,
but yeah, part of like the more traditional aspect of
masculinity is, you know, just men up and suck it up,
(26:33):
let's say, which which translated into self medication, which is
a nice word to say, using drugs and alcohol in
a very destructive manner, where I would even say suicidal manner.
I met with with this aspect as well. Men who
are you know, seeking into into a prediction? Yeah, yeah,
(26:59):
and feeling alone. And it's not uncommon for a reservist too,
is coming back home to feel alone because indeed he
had this very.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
This tight knit brotherhood with his.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Electly tightness and and and then back home people. You know,
life goes on here for I think, like for November
December twenty twenty three, we're all being in this situation.
But the fact of the matter is that that life
of life goes on and and and they find themselves
you know, nobody can understand them except for their friends.
(27:37):
Who've been there with them to experience the exact experiences
and and many times they just give up. Okay, I
don't have any chance for nobody to understand me, So
it doesn't even there's no point in trying. And this
is part of of of the power of the group
(27:59):
because you know, they know that everybody in the group
has been through through several circles of reserve duty, so
they share the experience. So it's a great starting point.
And the thing I wanted to say about the toxic.
Of course I understand the question and it's okay, but
this is personally a term that that I hate. Yeah,
(28:25):
I mean, we we never say toxic, any other toxic,
any any other generalization in toxic. I don't know. There's
different qualities in in in manhood and they have, like
you know, their their ups and downs, and especially now
when we're speaking during the war and where masculinity is
(28:51):
a part of it, a huge part of it, maybe
a part of the causes, but also part of the defending.
Now and you know we're speaking now on July, we
still have hostages in Gada men because men life are
at the bottom. You know, It's like from the Titanic men,
(29:13):
women and children. First, men, life are of a less value,
and I think it's time for us to treasure men
who did masculinity. Of course, they think that we want
to change and improve as a society, but the term
toxic maximlinity always like shrinks me.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I have to say, I read something recently about that,
if I remember correctly, the British education system is trying
to get stopped teachers using this word, saying toxic masculinity
because some research is suggesting that well, the first time
any of any of the boys in school hear about masculinity,
it's as toxic masculinity, and so they end up growing
(29:54):
up with a very sort of I don't know if
what the right word is, but they grow up with
an unhealthy relationship to masculinity, feeling like they shouldn't be masculine,
but at the same time still wanting to be.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Yeah, So helping navigate the conversation here. But like I've
been working with VISA for for many years, and for
many years we did like workshop, I did workshops in schools,
in high schools, working with young boys about these exact issues.
And you can't be you know, you're very right, many
(30:31):
boys like grow up and they feel they afraid of
their own sexuality or aggression. And then it's not that's
not a healthy relationships with this identity.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
And let's let's talk a little bit about how that's
impacting their relationships with their wives, girlfriends, and then it's
his boyfriends. What's is there? I mean the coming back
from coming back from reserve duty. Do you see a
lot of I don't know what the right word is.
(31:12):
Do you see them having trouble returning to this partnership?
I guess between two people, do they have trouble with this?
Speaker 3 (31:21):
I can there's like a conflict of loyalty loyalties. No,
they want to be loyal to their friends and for
the friends, for the country, of course, but when you
go when you when you.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Go into the reserve duty, you're there for the people.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Then you're there for the people and for the mission
on the one end, and on the other end, you
want to be loyal for your girlfriend, wife, partner, whatever,
And so there they experience this conflict, and sometimes the
the other side is very angry about their choice, especially
with the continuing continuing war, because it's again and again
(32:04):
and again, there's a huge gap, you know, they experienced
being the military. Meanwhile, life goes on here. There's a
huge gap, a lot of guilt, a lot of will
for you know, for compensating for the lost time. But
many times not even in a very efficient manner.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
They're just doing whatever is the first thing that comes
to mind, or what do you mean by another very
efficient manner?
Speaker 3 (32:36):
First of all, I always stress out this point for
for for the man in my group, guilt is a
very bad.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Like a.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
It's a very bad fuel for change. It's it's not
it's not really help helping. Responsibility isn't a whole different thing.
We want to move from guilty responsibility. And by not efficient,
I mean they for example, they can be like suffering
(33:09):
from a chronic fatigue and because they want to compensate
and and and they keep on going like on a
high speed, but they're not really there. They're not really
present in their relationship. They function in they can do
a lot of things, but they're not really present because
they are still deconnected from from from themselves and in all,
(33:33):
in order to reconnect and to reintegrate, they have to
look after themselves as well. And and part of this
is going to these sessions and thank you. Yeah. And
another part of it is to to stand for like
to confront your partner that I know I've been absent
(33:56):
for such a long time, but still I need time
for myself as well. It's not that they've been on
vacation and you know, the other side had his own story.
It's very hard to stay such a long time alone
with the kids, with the taking care of the house,
so they have to I don't offer them solutions. I
(34:17):
do offer them the communicating their needs and how to
communicate them and to take responsibility.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
So basically, part of this is to help give them
the tools they need to once they properly reintegrate healthily,
reintegrate with their family and the wider civilian society basically,
and a huge.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Part of it is just to be patient, to understand
that this is a transition, a very hard transition. It's
going to take time. Do not expect from yourself. And
also I say that for the surrounding, for the families,
employees and wives expected to be like you know, yeah, instant,
(35:03):
like as if nothing ever happened. It's it's a it's
a hard condition. Maybe it will never be the same
and you have to be patient, and you have to
be compassionate and like bring a lot of softness, softness
into this transition.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Well, thank you Giddy for coming. This has been really
interesting and very eye opening. To be honest, I have
some of this stuff with stuff that I had seen
just from my friends, but hearing, hearing the impact as
it's coming from someone who's UH as part of professional help,
it's been very eye opening.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
This episode was hosted by u Val Barnea and addited
and produced by Valve Barnea and Shepherd Jacobs. For more
information about jpo's podcast, check the description of this episode.
This is jPOS sits down with and In this episode,
we sit down with Gidon Gras, an expert educator and
facilitator who is currently facilitating A Father Is Born Project,
part of the Women's International Zionist Organizations commitment to men's
mental health. If you're someone who love is struggling with
their mental health, please see resources in the description of
this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hi, I'm you Val Barnair, producer Jpost Studios, and I'm
here with Gideon I, a therapist and group session leader
at the Women International Zionist Organizations. A Father Is Born
Program a program which aims to help reintegrate new fathers
back into society, back into their families, and help them
end their military service in a positive and constructive way. Giddy,
(00:43):
thank you for joining.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Us, Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
How would you describe your own words? The program A
Father is Mourn.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
So Father Is Born is a program for men in
a reserve duty and this continuous war who became father
during the war. So it's like this a double challenge
of transition from from military life, from compact zone into
(01:12):
family life and combined with the challenge of expanding the family,
whether it's their first born or or a second child,
and is.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
That something we're seeing a lot of in this war,
that there are a lot of new fathers who are
having children while they're in reserve duty.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
There's there's a big demand for the program.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Maybe tell us a little bit about how the program
came about? What what? How? How long has it been around?
And I'm sure I can guess what led to it,
but how how long has it been around and how
how did it come up?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
So we are now like yesterday, I've met with the
group that I'm facilitating, and this is the first group,
so it's been around for like two or three months.
How it came about? So, Vito that the program is
led by Viso.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Could you tell just in case people don't know what
that is.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Yeah, Visa it's like a very big organization for Zionist
women issues. I don't know how to say it, but
regarding to this programs is A is helping women for
many years, especially in terms of family life, motherhood, equal
(02:29):
rights and uh empowering women. And so in the war,
they started by supporting the women who were left behind
in the in the home with the kids under a
lot of pressure, and they came about, Okay, we need
to help the men as well when they come back.
(02:51):
I can say in general that it's like a we
can see in during the war, like a regression in gender.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
World and then are out fighting and the women, yeah,
stock looking after the kids. Yeah, Yeah, I've I've seen that.
I know a few people who that's that's basically been
the situation and not not for not They're they're very
progressive feminist women who I can see this isn't exactly
how they imagined their married life, going that the husband
is out all day for months at a time.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
And for many men as well, not how they imagined
their fatherhood. It's not how they're imagined their relationship with
the kids. And I think it's a very interesting and
complex time. I mean because and also like I think,
you know other other qualities of musculinity that many many
years were we were facing the how do you say,
(03:44):
like toxic side of it.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Toxic masculinity. Yeah, And this is a bit about bringing
some element of positive masculinity.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
And also I want to like doing some positive like
pr for for musculinity because we're all now I mean,
facing war and we need those men who are out
there looking after us.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
But we also need other men back home, ringing back.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Home, and the program is about helping them reintegrate back
into the families, back into their values, back into the
men they wanted to be.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Has that impact been come increasingly clear that these men
are being kept away from their families for such a
long time that it is actually hard for them to come.
Of course, I'm back. And would you say that's I
don't know how how much you might know, But is
it worse than in previous wars? Would you say this
is or is it more due to the length?
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I think, okay, So of course the length. It's not
only the length, it's the cycles. You know, the words
of cycles, because and I heard it from from many men,
from many reserve soldiers. And the impact of this circles.
(04:54):
It's not that you finish. I mean they finish and
they go back home. The shadow of the next coming
circle is already you know, looming the present because they
can't really just let go.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
They need to.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
They in a way they are preparing for the next circle.
So the length is a big part of it. And
also I think it's very different from a previous word
war in the manner of you know, we had a
very big differences all around the Western world and in
Israel as well, concerning the role of men in the
(05:31):
house the role of women. And all of a sudden,
the women are called back into the house and the
men are calling out. But the demands didn't really change.
Women is still expected to go out and work, and
the men still I mean they're you know, providing for
(05:51):
a physical security, but the more emotional and relationships security
is still part of the expectations from them self and
the surrounding this.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I just thought of this now, But is there any
element that some of them are maybe a little bit
embarrassed or upset that they aren't the ones earning the
money for their family anymore, that they're stuck basically in
an unpaid volunteer position for a long time and they
aren't actually earning. Is there do they talk about that
at all?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
I can say that one of the challenges is like
reintegrating back into civilian life. So we talked a bit
about the family space, and we'll go back to it later,
but it's very hard to merge back into the work
as well, and some of the employers are not aware
enough for the challenge that they're facing. The guys talk
(06:45):
about like a cognitive dysfunctioning. They came back from a
really different environment and they had to function both physically,
emotionally and cognitively in a whole different manner. And so
it's hard to go back into work. And as for
(07:07):
you a question about like more money wise, I mean,
I met with a couple of father that actually were
kicked off their jobs because they were absent for so long.
And whether it's like I think legally they have a
problem with it, but that they that they find a way,
you like, to go past it and to let them go.
(07:29):
Of course, that going back to the military and combat
zone is hard, but I think it's also important to
to face like the rewarding parts of it. They find
a lot of meaning, a sense of belonging. They're not alone.
They're part of a very big mission, national mission where
(07:51):
everything is very rigid and you know, and uncertain.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Do many of them feel conflicted about this that they
both see why they need to go back, but also
have difficulty going back.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Of course, it's just the point I was trying to
make it back back home. I thinks they're not as
clear as as as in the military, and of course
as a new father even more like what is my
role here? And if he was absent for many months
and you know, so the old system just life goes on.
(08:25):
So it's the void was filled with the different parts
of the family or a more role that the mother
took for herself, and so we really need to create
his own role again.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Especially if it's a young child that he hasn't been
there so.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Much, haven't been there so much, And it's always a challenge.
It's always like, of course it's a happy thing, yeah,
but it's also a crisis in the life of of
a man.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Is there one Is there any specific story or sort
of event that a lot of them talk about that
a lot of them experience sort of a very common
sort of feeling that I don't know, maybe missing the
child's first walk or words or something like this, that
a lot of them seem to be.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yeah, impact can say that a lot of they carry
a lot of guilt. Of course, they miss like important
milestones into the child's life. I heard like the circumcision. Yeah,
the one who misses his son a circumcision like first
(09:32):
steps for first words, of course, But more importantly I
think that that's it's always hard for a man to
connect with the child. I mean, the woman carries inside
her own body. She she already has a relationship relationship
(09:52):
with with the baby for nine months, and now it's
even harder. And and another point I want to make
it that while being in the military, being detached from
motion is like a really important function for your survival,
for your for for making things right. When you come
(10:16):
into the relationship zone, it's the exact exact opposite. In
order to reconnect with somebody, you have to be connected
to to yourself. So they and they don't want to
just you know, be function only like yeah, like a robot,
just doing the the going through the events and the Yeah,
(10:40):
they wanna they want to feel, and it's not always
easy because they were for many months. They made a
lot of mental effort to not feel, to be disconnected,
to avoid all sort of helplessness and and and fear.
And when they want to connect, so many times they
(11:01):
meet with all of this thing that they didn't want
to meet for a long time. And it's a complex situation.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Has there been previous efforts maybe by the IDEF or
by nonprofits to do this kind of work before.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, let's start that I think in comparison to previous war,
like part of my reserve in this war was to
do this circles of how do you say it would processing? Yeah,
which became like a huge part of this war.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
That's so so in the past it wasn't a huge like.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Yeah, in the past, it wasn't it wasn't a part.
And I think only like elite unit's got this attention
for their mental health, and now it's spread it much wider.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Do you think there's part of this is to do
with the general discussion that I would say people know us,
but it seems like everyone over the world is having
this about men's mental health. Do you think this has
been part of why it's increased.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I'm sure it is, and of course I viewed as
a very positive step. I think it's uh and this
program is part of it. It's it's part of our
responsibility as society to take care not only on the
physical health, but also for for the mental health of
(12:22):
of the warriors. And uh and and and again not
only the warriors. I met with people that were, you know,
like backstage work. They suffer from post traumatic symptoms because
many times, for many hours they had a lot of responsibility.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
And I have one friend who has it just from
the sound of drones and nothing else. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Wow, and again you know it's it's so we have
like a lot of more awareness for for this whole
issue of of of emotional impact of taking part of
a war. Yeah, and something that we need to work with.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Do you think there's been a wider discussion about this
in Israeli society? Because I know Israelis are actually quite
good about talking about their emotions I think, but not
always in the most constructive ways. Has that Do you
see it having an impact on wider Israeli society that
a lot of these soldiers are now going through psychological
(13:32):
treatment or going through this process of processing what's gone through.
Do you think that's having a wider impact on Israelis.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yes, I think it's part of a whole process concerning masculinity,
Like if we go back in a more traditional manners
of masculinity, so it's like you know, a lonesome rider
or onesome wolf who have to always manage us on
his own and never ask for helps is always is
(14:00):
I just watched the Bill barr a stand up, like
you men are allowed to be Okay, or angry. There
the two options, and of course underneath they carry the
whole spectrum of emotion. So it's as a part of
a wider change. And in Israel, especially in the last
(14:22):
couple of years, we have a very big change concerning
the PUTSD on a military background, I think, like I
don't know a lot of people. For me, I really
liked Kagan that the comedian who talks about it, so
it becomes much more legitimate is to speak up. But still,
of course there's a lot of shame and loneliness surrounding
(14:46):
the I mean, I don't want to make it like
a brighter than it is. So there's an improvement, but
still a lot of men stay alone, never ask for help,
think that something is wrong with them. And this is
a huge part of of our our choosing of of
(15:08):
a group setting, because it's much easier for a man
to take part of a group then to go on
a one on one one and not one on one session.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Is there a difference between sort of more religious soldiers
and less religious soldiers in this.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
It's an interesting question. I must say that from my
experience now, but I do know that like from literature
and theory, like a huge part of resilience is values
and belief. But belief in values are not only religious.
I mean people can be secular, but but the sense
(15:50):
that then the reality they're facing is a part of
their own choice, something that they are loyal to. That's that.
Of course it's hard, they have difficulty that they pay prices,
but you know they own it. You feel that this
is this is something that this is who I want
(16:10):
to be. This is part of my set of values.
It's a big part of being a resilient.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
So you started describing a little bit, Why why don't
you walk us through what happens in a typical session,
how how it starts, what's the topics of discussion, and
if you've got anything interesting that you can tell us
from any of them without revealing anyone's personal information.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
So we do have like subject for each group session,
but of course always try to be as flexible as
possible with what is being currently alive within the within
the men, we usually start with some kind of grounding,
(16:57):
physical grounding. We practice long long sessions, all sort of
emotional regulation exercise. It's always with with something physical, and
we talked about we talk about different issues like anger management,
how to communicate oneself oneself emotions and needs. First of all,
(17:22):
it's hard enough to communicate it to yourself and later
on to somebody else. But but a lot of the again,
it's it's not uncommon during I don't know to say
peace days, but it's never been peace days. But but
before October seventh, it's always been past hard. But now
(17:42):
it's even harder for for men to, you know, to
to own their own emotions. So so doing the sessions.
And we speak first of all about this, like what
what do I need? What do I feel? And sometimes
and men want to avoid the answers because they are
(18:06):
not masculine, because I feel helpless and feeling I think
this is like one of the most forbidding a feeling
for a man to feel helpless. And of course it's
inevitable during life. You don't know always what you do.
And and the way I like market this litening to
(18:30):
them is that and it's true, it's an act of
taking responsibility. If you're a father, if you want to
be a man in this world, you have to take
responsibility for your action, for your feelings. And you can't
do it. I feel in denial.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
And is that something you found is quite effective at
countering this maxculinity, asking people to take responsibility for their emotions.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yes, and and and also the group is very effective
because it's and it happens very quickly, you know, it's
always I've been facilitating men groups for many years now,
and I get the reaction many times from women like
so you just sit there for three hours and in silent.
And the fact is that men know how to talk
(19:16):
their emotions. They find a lot of value in speaking
their emotion and they give incredible support for each other.
But they just need the right conditions, which is not
that often are given to them.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
It feels like what I'm hearing is that a lot
of these men sort of they want to discuss their emotions,
They want to discuss it in a non toxic, responsible way,
but they sort of lack the space to do it.
There's not sort of a you know, it's sometimes quite
hard to talk to your own friends about it, and
it can be also much harder to talk to your
own family about substance. So are you saying that there's
(19:53):
sort of not maybe there's a need for a space
where men groups of men can come together to discuss
things like this.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, exactly. And in this space, you know, it's a
judgmental space, and every time somebody speaks up, you know,
the level of trust is rising up. The level of
shame is like lowering. You know, they are I mentioned earlier,
(20:23):
the sense of belonging, being part of something. I think
part of what we're trying to do is take they
are coming in this way, we have like a big advantage.
They already have this positive experience of being part of
a manhood of like their brother in arms. So we
want to shift this a sense of belonging, of trust
(20:47):
and shift it into civilian life where you can trust
your brother not only to protect you, have your back,
like physically, but also to support you with your daily
dilemmas as a father, the partner.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Do you think this is something that could that the
army should be implementing something like this, like on a
wider scale of having these kind of post army groups
in a sense.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
I don't know if if the army, but I but
I yeah, but but definitely the like the country and
the whole. Okay, so I don't know like the exactly,
but but but of course this is a part of
the responsibility. You're sending your men out there, and not
not only men, and I want to you know, yeah,
(21:37):
of course there are also women in reserve duties who
who are also facing very hard challenges and having difficulties
integrating back back home. And of course it's a minority.
But this minority is the society is very blind to
you because it's the minority. People are not aware enough
(22:02):
of women face face challenging challenges coming back from reserve
duty as well. And back to your question, of course,
it's a it's a it's a it's our responsibility as
a country, as a society, you know, to help them
go back home and and it's part of our resilient
(22:26):
as a society. You know, we know it when when
we neglect it. Yeah, so like people we have, you
have violent issues like domestic violence, you have.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Suicides, and yeah, that's yeah for sure. I remember the
first the week after I make Alia, there was a
soldier who and that's it that that happened the week
after I moved, and that for me really gave me
the big impact of yeah, there there has to be
(23:00):
some sort of process at the end of the army
because clearly a lot for a lot of people that
they don't leave the army in such a great state.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
And again I think I don't want to make the
picture too bright, but there's a very we progressed a lot.
We did a long way as a society. There's many
soldier going through you know, even if it's just something.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I've definitely noticed that as some of my reservest friends,
who I would not have said would have been the
most emotionally open people, I've definitely become more willing to
discuss things. And I think partially because they'd see that
so many other people are also experiencing similar things, they
feel slightly less alone. But also this what you're describing,
(23:48):
this sort of societal change that we're having towards this
type of discussion.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
And the fact that the army, you know, as for me,
it was extremely meaningful part of reserve duty. I facilitated
such groups because it's for for me personally. I was
a combat soldier back in the days and for many
years as a reserve. For instance, like okay, you know
(24:14):
like a stamp, have a quality stamp that this is important,
this is part. This is not something like how do
you say nice to have this is this is a
part part of our security.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
This is this is a must.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
That's yeah, this is a must. And and then when
the army does that, you give a very profound message
due to the soldier that yeah, don't be this is
this is part of your responsibility. This is part of
our responsibility to take care of your mental health as well.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
How much influence have you had from foreign programs? Have
other programs saying in the United States or maybe even
Ukraine where there's similar things going on that you've drown
influenced from, or have you influenced any of these?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
So personally, I'm not I don't know. The program Father
Is Born is with the help of a doctor actor
who's in Israeli and for many years he studied like
men who domestic violence And I'm not sure with the.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Like no, I'm I'm just but no.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
But it's a really interesting question because it's something that worldwide,
worldwide phenomena that we're all experiencing.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
One thing you've been talking a lot about is this
toxic masculinity, And we also hear a lot of times
that goes hand in hand with a male loneliness epidemic.
Do you hear a lot about it in the West?
How is that sort of impacting the soldiers. Is there
a element of them when they're coming back, falling into
bad patterns, patterns of of isolating themselves and refusing to
(26:10):
see friends and family discourse.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Yeah, So I want to say something about toxic masculinity later,
but yeah, part of like the more traditional aspect of
masculinity is, you know, just men up and suck it up,
(26:33):
let's say, which which translated into self medication, which is
a nice word to say, using drugs and alcohol in
a very destructive manner, where I would even say suicidal manner.
I met with with this aspect as well. Men who
are you know, seeking into into a prediction? Yeah, yeah,
(26:59):
and feeling alone. And it's not uncommon for a reservist too,
is coming back home to feel alone because indeed he
had this very.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
This tight knit brotherhood with his.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Electly tightness and and and then back home people. You know,
life goes on here for I think, like for November
December twenty twenty three, we're all being in this situation.
But the fact of the matter is that that life
of life goes on and and and they find themselves
you know, nobody can understand them except for their friends.
(27:37):
Who've been there with them to experience the exact experiences
and and many times they just give up. Okay, I
don't have any chance for nobody to understand me, So
it doesn't even there's no point in trying. And this
is part of of of the power of the group
(27:59):
because you know, they know that everybody in the group
has been through through several circles of reserve duty, so
they share the experience. So it's a great starting point.
And the thing I wanted to say about the toxic.
Of course I understand the question and it's okay, but
this is personally a term that that I hate. Yeah,
(28:25):
I mean, we we never say toxic, any other toxic,
any any other generalization in toxic. I don't know. There's
different qualities in in in manhood and they have, like
you know, their their ups and downs, and especially now
when we're speaking during the war and where masculinity is
(28:51):
a part of it, a huge part of it, maybe
a part of the causes, but also part of the defending.
Now and you know we're speaking now on July, we
still have hostages in Gada men because men life are
at the bottom. You know, It's like from the Titanic men,
(29:13):
women and children. First, men, life are of a less value,
and I think it's time for us to treasure men
who did masculinity. Of course, they think that we want
to change and improve as a society, but the term
toxic maximlinity always like shrinks me.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I have to say, I read something recently about that,
if I remember correctly, the British education system is trying
to get stopped teachers using this word, saying toxic masculinity
because some research is suggesting that well, the first time
any of any of the boys in school hear about masculinity,
it's as toxic masculinity, and so they end up growing
(29:54):
up with a very sort of I don't know if
what the right word is, but they grow up with
an unhealthy relationship to masculinity, feeling like they shouldn't be masculine,
but at the same time still wanting to be.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Yeah, So helping navigate the conversation here. But like I've
been working with VISA for for many years, and for
many years we did like workshop, I did workshops in schools,
in high schools, working with young boys about these exact issues.
And you can't be you know, you're very right, many
(30:31):
boys like grow up and they feel they afraid of
their own sexuality or aggression. And then it's not that's
not a healthy relationships with this identity.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
And let's let's talk a little bit about how that's
impacting their relationships with their wives, girlfriends, and then it's
his boyfriends. What's is there? I mean the coming back
from coming back from reserve duty. Do you see a
lot of I don't know what the right word is.
(31:12):
Do you see them having trouble returning to this partnership?
I guess between two people, do they have trouble with this?
Speaker 3 (31:21):
I can there's like a conflict of loyalty loyalties. No,
they want to be loyal to their friends and for
the friends, for the country, of course, but when you
go when you when you.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Go into the reserve duty, you're there for the people.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Then you're there for the people and for the mission
on the one end, and on the other end, you
want to be loyal for your girlfriend, wife, partner, whatever,
And so there they experience this conflict, and sometimes the
the other side is very angry about their choice, especially
with the continuing continuing war, because it's again and again
(32:04):
and again, there's a huge gap, you know, they experienced
being the military. Meanwhile, life goes on here. There's a
huge gap, a lot of guilt, a lot of will
for you know, for compensating for the lost time. But
many times not even in a very efficient manner.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
They're just doing whatever is the first thing that comes
to mind, or what do you mean by another very
efficient manner?
Speaker 3 (32:36):
First of all, I always stress out this point for
for for the man in my group, guilt is a
very bad.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Like a.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
It's a very bad fuel for change. It's it's not
it's not really help helping. Responsibility isn't a whole different thing.
We want to move from guilty responsibility. And by not efficient,
I mean they for example, they can be like suffering
(33:09):
from a chronic fatigue and because they want to compensate
and and and they keep on going like on a
high speed, but they're not really there. They're not really
present in their relationship. They function in they can do
a lot of things, but they're not really present because
they are still deconnected from from from themselves and in all,
(33:33):
in order to reconnect and to reintegrate, they have to
look after themselves as well. And and part of this
is going to these sessions and thank you. Yeah. And
another part of it is to to stand for like
to confront your partner that I know I've been absent
(33:56):
for such a long time, but still I need time
for myself as well. It's not that they've been on
vacation and you know, the other side had his own story.
It's very hard to stay such a long time alone
with the kids, with the taking care of the house,
so they have to I don't offer them solutions. I
(34:17):
do offer them the communicating their needs and how to
communicate them and to take responsibility.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
So basically, part of this is to help give them
the tools they need to once they properly reintegrate healthily,
reintegrate with their family and the wider civilian society basically,
and a huge.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Part of it is just to be patient, to understand
that this is a transition, a very hard transition. It's
going to take time. Do not expect from yourself. And
also I say that for the surrounding, for the families,
employees and wives expected to be like you know, yeah, instant,
(35:03):
like as if nothing ever happened. It's it's a it's
a hard condition. Maybe it will never be the same
and you have to be patient, and you have to
be compassionate and like bring a lot of softness, softness
into this transition.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Well, thank you Giddy for coming. This has been really
interesting and very eye opening. To be honest, I have
some of this stuff with stuff that I had seen
just from my friends, but hearing, hearing the impact as
it's coming from someone who's UH as part of professional help,
it's been very eye opening.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
This episode was hosted by u Val Barnea and addited
and produced by Valve Barnea and Shepherd Jacobs. For more
information about jpo's podcast, check the description of this episode.
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