July 24, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode of 'JPost sits down with...', we sit down with Shannon Seban, a French politician, City Council Member of Rosny-sous-Bois (Seine-Saint-Denis), and advisor on European Affairs for the Combat Antisemitism Movement. Shannon has been a vocal advocate for combating discrimination and promoting French laïcité, but her Jewish identity has made her the target of both online and in-person attacks.
Shannon shares her personal experiences of facing antisemitic abuse in both public and private spaces, as well as her efforts to fight hatred through her political role. We discuss the importance of protecting the values of laïcité while also standing up against rising antisemitism in France and Europe. Her powerful story sheds light on the challenges and resilience of those fighting for equality in a time of deepening divides. Join us for an insightful conversation about the intersection of politics, identity, and the ongoing battle against antisemitism in Europe.
Hosted and edited by Shifra Jacobs.
Learn more about our podcasts here.
Shannon shares her personal experiences of facing antisemitic abuse in both public and private spaces, as well as her efforts to fight hatred through her political role. We discuss the importance of protecting the values of laïcité while also standing up against rising antisemitism in France and Europe. Her powerful story sheds light on the challenges and resilience of those fighting for equality in a time of deepening divides. Join us for an insightful conversation about the intersection of politics, identity, and the ongoing battle against antisemitism in Europe.
Hosted and edited by Shifra Jacobs.
Learn more about our podcasts here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Jpost sits down with and In this episode,
I sat down with Shannon Sabon, a city council member
of Francis San San Deni and responsible for combating discrimination
and promoting French La city. Shannon schaed with me the
challenges that come with rising antisemitism, French and Jewish identity
and more. I'm really excited for this conversation. I'd love
(00:23):
if you can kind of give me a little bit
of an introduction about who you are and tell our
audience a little bit about what you do.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Sure. Thanks a lot for your invitation at the Jerrysalem Post.
I'm really happy to be your guest today. So my
name is Shannon Subon. I was been born and raised
in France in sin Sanduni department where I am elected
today in Roni Suwa, a city of let's say fifty
thousand inhabitants, and I am elected there in charge of
(00:51):
conveating discrimination and of promoting the French concept of la cite,
which is kind of a secularism concept.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
That's so interesting. And can you tell me a bit
more about the secularism concept.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Sure. So in French we have what we say lacity.
So the concept of lacity means that there is a
separation between church and state, and it dates back nineteen
oh five. So that means that the French Republic is
protecting the right of every French citizens to practice the
religion or not to be living God or not. And
(01:25):
it's kind of a way or to protect the practice
of region. So that's a principle which is really important
for us as being French citizens, especially in the national
and international context that we know. So this is like
a French specificity that we do not have as well
as in the world. Let's say, for example, in the US,
(01:47):
you do have the concept of secularism, which is not
the same one as the French concept of lacity.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
How did you get into that field?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Into politics? Umen?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Into politics and also and that specialty.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I mean when it comes to politics, I commit into
politics very young, when I was let's say sixteen or
seventeen years old, because I had the feeling that I
need to commit myself for others and to try to
make some change for the general interest, let's say, when
it comes to lacity more specifically, and also about my
(02:22):
fight against discrimination and antisemitism, racism and any kind of discrimination.
It came also from myself the background I grew up
in because my parents came from immigration. My father was
born in Algeria, my mom was born in Morocco, and
I grew up in an environment where tolerance, respect and
(02:46):
mutual understanding were normal. And these were the values I
grew up with, and that's why I've decided to commit
it to politics by promoting those values, especially terlerance, coexistence
and laisity. And I do think that today this notion
is quite important, and ten years ago, unfortunately you had
(03:12):
in France various terrorist sorry attacks that like happen in
our country, and especially because of Islamist terrorism. That consider
that laisity is an obstacle to the practice of Islam,
which is not the true. Actually it's absolutely not the true.
(03:35):
So this is what I'm fighting for. I want to
make people understand that the Western world is not and
the enemy to the practice of the religion. It's not
the enemy to the practice of Islam. The Western world
should be the enemy of Islamism and radical Islamism, but
(03:56):
not to moderate Islam, which is a regional piece.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
At some point, yeah, let's dive in a little bit
more to that, because you have a Jewish background, and
that's kind of the place that you're coming from. I
know that you've experienced anti Semitism within your role, threats,
online threats, you've needed security at specific events. What does
that tell you about Francis climate today.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
I will be honest with you and in my political
commitment as well as in my Daia life, as I
have always been like quite clear, and I guess that
in this time period we need moral clarity and courage.
The situation in France bet al so all across Europe
and even in the world from October twenty twenty three
(04:42):
is preccupying, is proccupying because no anti Semitism is becoming normal,
is even becoming fashion at some point, especially from some
political leaders in France, from the far left. They are
nurturing Antisemetism to gain voters. They are normalizing and Chisaianism,
and they are using and Chisaiunism in order to promote
(05:05):
and tis Eemitism. And this is absolutely inacceptable and tolerable,
and I do think that we need to make things change. So,
of course, as you told it before, I have experienced
like anti semitism several times in my personal life, but
also in my political career, and that's why also I
have decided to publish a book in order to say
(05:27):
people and to tell people that, Okay, I'm Jewish. Of course,
this is my personal life. This is my personal This
is about like my personal like this is private, you know.
But I'm also French, and I do not have to
choose between my French nationality, my identity, but also my
(05:47):
religion my face. This is like two separate things, but
we can make it much at some point, you know
what I mean. This is all about respecting the value
of the countries you grew up in, and this is
like the message I would like to share. But of course,
as you told it before, I have experience anti semitism
from both the far left but also the far right,
(06:09):
and that's why I will like also today to combate Antisemetism,
racism and discrimination that are coming from the both, like
from both the far left and the far right.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Can you tell me a little bit about what that
looks like on the side of the far left and
on the side of the far right, one of them.
I think I can kind of guess what that looks like,
but I'm interested to hear from both perspectives.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Absolutely and that's a good question, to be honest, because
most of people now in France and in Europe especially
do think that the far left are the only one
who are responsible for nurturing antisemetism. But I cannot forget
about the past, especially from the far right. In July
twenty twenty three, so that means before October seventh, I
(06:56):
have experienced antisemetism from a nil nazy activist who has
decided to escape in Japan for many years now. He
is candaigned more than twenty times, but he cannot go
to jail in France because we do not have any
agreement between friends and Japan. And this guy actually decided
to attack me online on a website where he said
(07:16):
that my nose, my Jewish knows what a threat to
the world and that I need to do something about it,
that Jewish people all a threat to the world. This
is antesimatism, and I decided to feel a complaint and
no I am waiting for the result of the trial,
and then after to October seven, one year ago. To
be honest, in June and July twenty twenty four, when
(07:39):
I was running for the French Parliament, I was facing
at the time Matil Penault, who is the leader of
Jean Luc MELANCHEMP political party at a French parliament. I
have been attacked because I was seen and considered as
being a dirty Zionist. What happened is is that they
(08:00):
deemed that because I was Jewish, that means that I
am a Zionist and a dirty Zionist that was supporting genocide.
This is what they told me, that I was a
kidders of baby and so on, and what happened to
me at the time, I really understand that something was
changing in France and know that the situation is getting
(08:20):
even worse. We can see it. Antisaianism is becoming the
new form of antisemitism. And I find that this is
particularly unfair because these people that are at the moment
boycotting my book, that are calling for boycott of artists,
of intellectuals of like any kind of like intellectuals, philosopher
(08:43):
with churches and so on, they are boycotting them because
they are Israeli are Jewish. Why is that? I mean,
why should Israeli people, why should Jewish people be responsible
of the political choices of Bigna Mina. This is something
which is quite different and I do think that today
(09:05):
moderation in our world is not seen as something which
is possible either whether you are extreme, whether you are not,
and we need to fight against this.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I think, yeah, as you were saying that, I kind
of can't help but think you know how much it
reminds me of other historical things, especially in France if
you think about how Jews were targeted, you know, more
than one hundred and fifty years ago. Even though going
back and it's sort of like the line gets blurred
between you know, when is it okay to say I'm
not okay with this and also when does it start
(09:38):
to become remnant of like fascist sort of ideologies when
people are boycotting books or when they're saying I won't
listen to this music, I won't come to your business,
I won't do this sort of thing. To me, that
is just so crazy, especially like looking at French history.
So I'm sure that that feels just very strained.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
I mean, it's not only strange, it's precupying, because at
some point in twenty twenty five right now, you can
like you can definitely see that the things that works
are moving forward is definitely the same way as they
were in thirty, like in nineteen thirteen, nineteen forty, like
this is at some point the fact that you would
(10:17):
like to boycott an artist because it's Jewish that reminds
me to the Holocaust. I'm sorry about that. And silent,
the fact that you can have like some people who
are silent that don't want to tell things with clarity
and courage. It means a lot like silence is complicity
at some point. And we should all stand together, whatever
(10:39):
our religion is, whatever our political belief is, against antisemitism,
as you need to stand against any kind of racism
and discrimination. This is about the way we are living together.
And as for me as Jewish, I cannot stand along
(11:00):
i Jewish people and I cannot fight antisemetism if I
do not fight any kind of racism and discrimination. That
means that on my daily basis, I also stand with Muslims,
Christians and any kind of people that are facing racism.
This is really important. This is our common fight to
live better together.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I'd love to ask you, I guess, like more on
your day to day role, how do you take all
of these ideals and put it into the work that
you're doing.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
So, what I think is that today in our daily life,
we need to we need to denounce. That means that
when I see that anti Semitism is becoming normal, when
I see that an anti Muslims act is happening, or
an anti Christian act is happening, my position as an
elected official is to denounce it and to say I
(11:49):
do not agree with this and we need to fight
these hates. So this is the first part to denounce it.
Then there is another part which is the solution, and
the solo according to me, is education but also justice.
And I do think that you can try to make
things change through education. We need to try to and
(12:12):
build cliche and stereotypes that are coming from education, both
at home but also at school, because it all comes
with education. You know, in the place where I am
elected in the sense on the new department, forty percent
of the population is aged less than twenty five years old.
And one of my main priority is to go into school,
(12:33):
to go in to see students and to build cliche
and stereotypes to say that not all Arabs are violent
as they would like to believe it, that all not
Jews are rich as they think about it, and that
fraternity and piece between Jews and Arabs is possible. There
(12:53):
is we need to make things. We need to make,
Like students understand that there is a difference in the
international conflict between Israel and Palestine and the situation in
France between Jews and Arabs. There's are two separate things,
and I don't find that an international conflict is the
maging our relation of peace and fraternity in France. And
(13:15):
then the third piar, I guess, is also about justice.
And I do think that we need to be more
rigorous and more stricts when it comes to punish hate online.
And I do think that there is on this topic
especially a huge responsibility of the digital platforms and social
(13:36):
media in order to prevent the like the sharing of
hate online and so on, to remove the content when
they are deemed to be about hate, and then to punish,
to punish them with a fine if needed. But I
do think that we now have several keys to adapt
(13:56):
in order to move forward a better world.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
I think something beautiful about what you're saying, and like
just from the conversation that we're having now, is that
you've kind of experienced that hate and people have come
for you for your identity and instead of turning around
and saying, Okay, well now I'm going to be angry
and hateful towards you, You're like, no, I'm showing you
that there's a different way. I think more people need
to be like that, and I think it's it's really
(14:20):
especially people who are in politics. I think we don't
see that enough. So I'm really happy that we're seeing
it now. I also think that in terms of social media,
it's almost as if the rules only start being made
as things happen, Like we've seen a lot of times
with like big social media CEOs, they only have to
deal with an issue once there's already been some sort
of scandal, and hopefully we sort of move towards something
(14:43):
that there's almost like not enough in place because people
can do whatever they want online. They can hide behind
a screen and say whatever they like, use a different name,
even if they use their own name. There's not really
that much punishment that goes with it. Maybe sometimes people
end up getting fired because it's you know, and that
in itself is something, But so there's not enough regulation
in place. And people have said things to me as well,
(15:04):
you know, like I've had so many different anti semty
especially it's in Suction twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I definitely agree with you, and especially like online you
can know, hate orthers with all like unveiling your identity,
and that's an issue. That's an issue because we cannot
like estimate the damage that it can cause, you know,
to young students, to young children in our contributors all
(15:30):
around the world. And I don't want now to have
the hate that is becoming even more fashion. Hate is
not normal, and we all know evolving in a society
where hating orders is becoming normal, something is going wrong.
And of course you do have some benefits with social
media today in order to be informed, to be connected,
to mobilize people, or so about to cause like you
(15:54):
do have some benefits, and we should also be honest
about this. This is like the future, this is about
technology and so on. But there are also some down
sides to innovation and we need to regulate. We need
to regulate it. AI, for example, many benefits, but we
can see that we do have also some down sites
and some disadvantages to these new technologies and hate online,
(16:17):
I guess is one of the main challenges we have
to address in the coming years, and it's urgent.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Is the kind of hete maybe the you experience so
that you see going on, what inspired you to write
your book? What did you get the inspiration for that?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
So my book actually is kind of a small baby
that I am unveiling now and I'm really happy now
to present it in a role and especially to you
at the Jerusalem Post. This book was about the personal story.
In this book, I share into tel transparency my personal background,
how I grew up with a power like parents, coming
(16:58):
from immigration, from a modest family. We are not especially rich,
but like I would like to share about the values
that I believe in. I also would like to share
about the love of my country. I'm particularly proud of
being French. This is a chance for me and also
pro to be jew and this is part of my
(17:19):
identity and I respect both. So like this book is
quite important to me. And this is not like an autobiography,
and I definitely want to be especially clear on this.
I'm not pretentious. I mean, I'm only twenty nine years old.
I have a lot to learn. But this is like
(17:41):
a book when I tell about some stories I have
experience so far, and also where I try to give
some solutions in order to commit hate in order to
integrate people in France, because I do think that we
have some problem when it comes to immigration and integration
in France. But I also like to yeah, fight any
kind of racism and discrimination. I mean, this book is
(18:04):
both like a shout of alom, like I would like
to make people understand that something is going wrong, especially
with the influence, for example, of the Muslim Brotherhood, which
is quite pureccupying both in France and in Europe, but
also to give some solutions, because I do think that
it's all about solutions and hope, And I mean I
(18:28):
hope that in this book people will see some lights
in this dark period.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
I think that's really special, and I hope that not
only does it get to the people who already know you,
but also people maybe haven't heard about it and they
need that feeling of hope. I know that, like there
are I know that Jews in France may feel unsafe.
We've been hearing for years, especially since the terror attacks
started happening, like over a decade ago, and even before then.
(18:57):
So what would you kind of say to the people
who are living in France Jewish people living in France
who may feel like that isn't a good future for them.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
You know this question, I heard it like on a
daily basis. Sure, you know, like French Jewish people that
comes and say, okay, I want to live this country anymore.
I don't like my place is not in France anymore.
I need to move to Israel or Elzrael basically. And
I mean this is like, this makes me really sad,
(19:27):
because I do think that the ties between French history
and Jewish people is quite intense, and I mean there
is a link that no one can contest, and we
need now to protect this link and to make it
even more stronger, especially in a situation where French Jewish
people are facing antesimitism on a daily basis. I just
(19:48):
to remind you of figure that also can make people
who are listening to us understand the situation in France
in twenty twenty two, so that means before October sevent
twenty twenty three, you had a ron like let's say
four hundred thirty thousand anti Semitic attacks that has been
identified in France. In twenty twenty four, this number rose
(20:09):
to more than one thousand and five hundred and seventy
anti Semitic attacks in France. This is absolutely and terrible.
That means that October seven has changed everything for French
Jewish people, that our anti Zionism is becoming normal, that
is becoming normal. That you need to hide your name
(20:29):
on yuber when asking for a driver because you need
to hide your Jewish identity, That you cannot have your
Mesusa on the door because you are Jewish. That you
are afraid when you put your schooling children because you
are afraid of antisemitism. This is the reality that we
have now in France, but also in Europe and in
all around the world. Let's say that the situation even
(20:51):
in the US. I have been traveling in the US
a few months ago, and I can tell you this
is the truth. In New York, in Harvard, in many you,
university anti semitism in campuses has becoming like really proccupying,
and we need to do something about this because it's
about education. It's about like shaping the mindset of future
(21:14):
generation and schools. University campuses cannot become the refuge to hate, basically.
So that's why I can understand the fact that some
French Jewish people would like to escape. But I will
say that This is not the solution. You know. One
of my motto when I woke up in the morning
(21:35):
is that it's when it's difficult that you have to fight.
It's when it's difficult that you have to stay. So
my advice and my belief is that we need to
fight again and again. I know it's difficult, but there
is still room for hope.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
How do you think that we can convey and by way,
I mean just Jews in general, that kind of message
I think outwardly like I think Jews themselves. Now, now
we understand the anti submitum is, we understand the anti
Semitism is rising. We know what the statistics look like.
We were following it all the time. The people who
are the ones who are kind of in between, the
(22:13):
people who are maybe saying I want to fight for
this cause, this feels right to me without really realizing
the undertones of what anti Semitic undertones that are. How
do we go about or in your opinion, how do
we go about trying to make people understand that maybe
the actions that they're taking are fueling hate, they are
going towards something that's a little bit more dangerous.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Actually, to answer your questions, I will say something which
is really basic, you know, like antisemitism and any kind
of racism and discrimination AIDS is about ignorance. You ignore
what you don't know about. So if we try to
and I know that this is something really hard. Is
a hard task to make people understand the roots of
(22:56):
the hevil, the roots of hate. It will make generation
to make things change, but we have to stand all together.
And I also think that there is a huge role
to play with interface dialogue. I do believe in interface
diolog in order to make changes in mindset. So on
a daily basis, I work with imams, rabbits and priests
(23:18):
in order to prove that fraternity and coexistence between religion
is possible. We are all brothers and sisters. And I
would like also to make people understand that there is
no difference because of religion. Like whatever your religion is,
we all need to fight in order to protect our values,
in order to respect others, in order to understand others.
(23:41):
And of course in France, for example, education is key,
education which is delivered by schools and teachers, and I
do think that on this field we have to protect
teachers and to like to teach them all to teach
basically interface dialogue and so on. But we also have
well to act on education at home and to make
(24:04):
like parents understand that they have also a huge role
to play in order to teach their children about peace
and mutual understanding.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
I really agree with what you're saying about interfaith dialogue
and things like that. I think we can apply those
rules also in Israel. You know, there's a lot of
spaces that still do that even after the war, which
is very special. I kind of want to talk a
little bit now about Israel and France. Where do you
think you see the best avenues for cooperation collaboration between
(24:34):
Israel and France, especially because I would say ever since
October seventh, Yeah, I think Israel and almost every other
country there are you know, strange ties in some way,
and it's very difficult for people to know how to
navigate it. So when do you see the future, I
guess for Israel and France.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I should at first, we should not forget the fact
that Israel is the only democracy in the region. That's
something which is important to remind people first, because I
know that in especially in the far left, you have
some political leaders that want to make people understand that
this is not the case, and that Israel is not
anymore democracy. Israel is the only democracy in the region.
(25:11):
This is like the basis. Then I also would like
to remind people that friends and Israel are friends. Friends
and Israel are friends, and that the ties between both
friends and Israel need to be protected whatever the international
situation is, through economic ties, cultural ties, innovation, education, like,
(25:35):
there are many things in common and we need to
cultivate it. I do not understand, to be fully honest
with you, that some artists are being boycott in friends,
boycotteds are in France because they are Jewish or Israeli.
This is like the worst situation ever. This is like
just stupid, and I do think that in France we
(25:57):
need to stand together with this artists that are just
like promoting culture, and most of them basically are promoting peace.
They are not nurturing hate. They are promoting peace through art,
through cultures, through innovations, through economy and so on. So
we have to strength these ties, and we have to
(26:19):
also to denounce what's happening here, of course, but to
make difference between Jews as welly and also the government
and the choices that have been made by some governments.
This is something which is quite different.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I think at the end of the day, what really
like stands out to me is a lot of times
with these things, I think a lot of people just
forget that there's just people who are living their lives.
Most of the time, we hear a lot about, you know,
the most extreme actions of human beings, but most of
the time people are getting up, they're trying to live
their lives. They hear bad news, they feel bad about it,
(26:56):
they want to continue on. And it feels like that's
just the content enuous sort of wave of people pointing
fingers and blaming, and I don't think that's really helping
the cause so much, definitely.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
I mean, you know, it's as I told before, it's
especially in France, you have like the politics and political
leaders that are nurturing anti semiticisms and at just that
unism in order to gain voters, especially among the Muslim community.
There are nuturing divisions between French people in order to
gain voters. And you know, I think that we know
(27:29):
how in France a toxic cocktail that means that ideology
is setting the fire. Political opportunism, like is nurturing the
flams and social tle fractures is kind of keeping the
fire alive. And we know how, we know how, I
(27:51):
guess your responsibility to play in order to denounce it,
and especially to denounce political opportunism. You know, on a
daily basis, where I am elected in Sane Sunday, the
area where I'm elected in, they are mostly people who
are from the far left, and I can see the
where they are functioning, especially a few months before the
(28:12):
municipal election that will take place in a few months
in twenty twenty six. Political opportunism from Monday to evening,
especially when it comes to the international conflict. They are
speaking of Gaza and Palestine from Monday to evening. Of course,
like we can definitely act for cause, support Palestinian people
(28:35):
and so on. This is the legitimate and I am
also standing in order to recognize at some point not
now a Palestinian state. But when you use the Palestinian
cause in order to gain voters among a certain part
of the population, this is unfair. This isn't fair, and
this is about manipulation, and I will keep fighting against this,
(28:58):
especially in the department, in the area where I'm elected in.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
You can tell from just you speaking about it, how
passionate the issue is, and also how I guess inspired.
I don't know what the right word would be, but
you are to really make change and I think we
need more people like that in the world.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
As we start to wrap up, I'm interested to know
what you would kind of want israeli is to know
a little bit more about French Jews, and what you'd
want French Jews to know a bit more about Israelis
because you've been in both places. You're trying to see
in the sometimes the divide probably or maybe I'm a surenderstanding.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I will be quite quite trothen quite clear. Friends is
a wonderful country. The link between his role and Friends
deeps and we should not forget about it. And I
will say that Israel so he's a wonderful country. He's
the Holy Land, and like we're all religion are gathered
(29:55):
all together. Is whether you are Christian, Jewish and Muslims.
You know, like when I'm going in Jerusalem, may always
have this feeling I'm really proud to be here. I
really love like as well, I really love Jerusalem, but
I'm really proud about also my country, which is Friends.
I'm really proud of being French, and I don't have
to choose between my Jewish identity and my French nationality.
(30:22):
This is part of my identity and I'm proved to
be both. So I just like to make people understand.
And this is also like the topic of this book,
that you can be both French and jew and.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
So what I think that's a perfect place to end.
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Thanks
a lot about your book and for just sharing your insights.
It's really important for us to hear, so thank you
so much.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Thanks a lot for your invitation. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
This episode was hosted, produced, and edited by Sheper Jacobs.
For more information about Japo's podcast, check the description of
this episode. This episode was hosted, produced, unedited by Sheppard
(38:46):
Jacobs and recorded in the jPOS studios in Jerusalem. For
more on d Post podcast For more for more information
(39:21):
on Dpost podcasts, check the description of this episode.
This is Jpost sits down with and In this episode,
I sat down with Shannon Sabon, a city council member
of Francis San San Deni and responsible for combating discrimination
and promoting French La city. Shannon schaed with me the
challenges that come with rising antisemitism, French and Jewish identity
and more. I'm really excited for this conversation. I'd love
(00:23):
if you can kind of give me a little bit
of an introduction about who you are and tell our
audience a little bit about what you do.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Sure. Thanks a lot for your invitation at the Jerrysalem Post.
I'm really happy to be your guest today. So my
name is Shannon Subon. I was been born and raised
in France in sin Sanduni department where I am elected
today in Roni Suwa, a city of let's say fifty
thousand inhabitants, and I am elected there in charge of
(00:51):
conveating discrimination and of promoting the French concept of la cite,
which is kind of a secularism concept.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
That's so interesting. And can you tell me a bit
more about the secularism concept.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Sure. So in French we have what we say lacity.
So the concept of lacity means that there is a
separation between church and state, and it dates back nineteen
oh five. So that means that the French Republic is
protecting the right of every French citizens to practice the
religion or not to be living God or not. And
(01:25):
it's kind of a way or to protect the practice
of region. So that's a principle which is really important
for us as being French citizens, especially in the national
and international context that we know. So this is like
a French specificity that we do not have as well
as in the world. Let's say, for example, in the US,
(01:47):
you do have the concept of secularism, which is not
the same one as the French concept of lacity.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
How did you get into that field?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Into politics? Umen?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Into politics and also and that specialty.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I mean when it comes to politics, I commit into
politics very young, when I was let's say sixteen or
seventeen years old, because I had the feeling that I
need to commit myself for others and to try to
make some change for the general interest, let's say, when
it comes to lacity more specifically, and also about my
(02:22):
fight against discrimination and antisemitism, racism and any kind of discrimination.
It came also from myself the background I grew up
in because my parents came from immigration. My father was
born in Algeria, my mom was born in Morocco, and
I grew up in an environment where tolerance, respect and
(02:46):
mutual understanding were normal. And these were the values I
grew up with, and that's why I've decided to commit
it to politics by promoting those values, especially terlerance, coexistence
and laisity. And I do think that today this notion
is quite important, and ten years ago, unfortunately you had
(03:12):
in France various terrorist sorry attacks that like happen in
our country, and especially because of Islamist terrorism. That consider
that laisity is an obstacle to the practice of Islam,
which is not the true. Actually it's absolutely not the true.
(03:35):
So this is what I'm fighting for. I want to
make people understand that the Western world is not and
the enemy to the practice of the religion. It's not
the enemy to the practice of Islam. The Western world
should be the enemy of Islamism and radical Islamism, but
(03:56):
not to moderate Islam, which is a regional piece.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
At some point, yeah, let's dive in a little bit
more to that, because you have a Jewish background, and
that's kind of the place that you're coming from. I
know that you've experienced anti Semitism within your role, threats,
online threats, you've needed security at specific events. What does
that tell you about Francis climate today.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
I will be honest with you and in my political
commitment as well as in my Daia life, as I
have always been like quite clear, and I guess that
in this time period we need moral clarity and courage.
The situation in France bet al so all across Europe
and even in the world from October twenty twenty three
(04:42):
is preccupying, is proccupying because no anti Semitism is becoming normal,
is even becoming fashion at some point, especially from some
political leaders in France, from the far left. They are
nurturing Antisemetism to gain voters. They are normalizing and Chisaianism,
and they are using and Chisaiunism in order to promote
(05:05):
and tis Eemitism. And this is absolutely inacceptable and tolerable,
and I do think that we need to make things change. So,
of course, as you told it before, I have experienced
like anti semitism several times in my personal life, but
also in my political career, and that's why also I
have decided to publish a book in order to say
(05:27):
people and to tell people that, Okay, I'm Jewish. Of course,
this is my personal life. This is my personal This
is about like my personal like this is private, you know.
But I'm also French, and I do not have to
choose between my French nationality, my identity, but also my
(05:47):
religion my face. This is like two separate things, but
we can make it much at some point, you know
what I mean. This is all about respecting the value
of the countries you grew up in, and this is
like the message I would like to share. But of course,
as you told it before, I have experience anti semitism
from both the far left but also the far right,
(06:09):
and that's why I will like also today to combate Antisemetism,
racism and discrimination that are coming from the both, like
from both the far left and the far right.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Can you tell me a little bit about what that
looks like on the side of the far left and
on the side of the far right, one of them.
I think I can kind of guess what that looks like,
but I'm interested to hear from both perspectives.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Absolutely and that's a good question, to be honest, because
most of people now in France and in Europe especially
do think that the far left are the only one
who are responsible for nurturing antisemetism. But I cannot forget
about the past, especially from the far right. In July
twenty twenty three, so that means before October seventh, I
(06:56):
have experienced antisemetism from a nil nazy activist who has
decided to escape in Japan for many years now. He
is candaigned more than twenty times, but he cannot go
to jail in France because we do not have any
agreement between friends and Japan. And this guy actually decided
to attack me online on a website where he said
(07:16):
that my nose, my Jewish knows what a threat to
the world and that I need to do something about it,
that Jewish people all a threat to the world. This
is antesimatism, and I decided to feel a complaint and
no I am waiting for the result of the trial,
and then after to October seven, one year ago. To
be honest, in June and July twenty twenty four, when
(07:39):
I was running for the French Parliament, I was facing
at the time Matil Penault, who is the leader of
Jean Luc MELANCHEMP political party at a French parliament. I
have been attacked because I was seen and considered as
being a dirty Zionist. What happened is is that they
(08:00):
deemed that because I was Jewish, that means that I
am a Zionist and a dirty Zionist that was supporting genocide.
This is what they told me, that I was a
kidders of baby and so on, and what happened to
me at the time, I really understand that something was
changing in France and know that the situation is getting
(08:20):
even worse. We can see it. Antisaianism is becoming the
new form of antisemitism. And I find that this is
particularly unfair because these people that are at the moment
boycotting my book, that are calling for boycott of artists,
of intellectuals of like any kind of like intellectuals, philosopher
(08:43):
with churches and so on, they are boycotting them because
they are Israeli are Jewish. Why is that? I mean,
why should Israeli people, why should Jewish people be responsible
of the political choices of Bigna Mina. This is something
which is quite different and I do think that today
(09:05):
moderation in our world is not seen as something which
is possible either whether you are extreme, whether you are not,
and we need to fight against this.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I think, yeah, as you were saying that, I kind
of can't help but think you know how much it
reminds me of other historical things, especially in France if
you think about how Jews were targeted, you know, more
than one hundred and fifty years ago. Even though going
back and it's sort of like the line gets blurred
between you know, when is it okay to say I'm
not okay with this and also when does it start
(09:38):
to become remnant of like fascist sort of ideologies when
people are boycotting books or when they're saying I won't
listen to this music, I won't come to your business,
I won't do this sort of thing. To me, that
is just so crazy, especially like looking at French history.
So I'm sure that that feels just very strained.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
I mean, it's not only strange, it's precupying, because at
some point in twenty twenty five right now, you can
like you can definitely see that the things that works
are moving forward is definitely the same way as they
were in thirty, like in nineteen thirteen, nineteen forty, like
this is at some point the fact that you would
(10:17):
like to boycott an artist because it's Jewish that reminds
me to the Holocaust. I'm sorry about that. And silent,
the fact that you can have like some people who
are silent that don't want to tell things with clarity
and courage. It means a lot like silence is complicity
at some point. And we should all stand together, whatever
(10:39):
our religion is, whatever our political belief is, against antisemitism,
as you need to stand against any kind of racism
and discrimination. This is about the way we are living together.
And as for me as Jewish, I cannot stand along
(11:00):
i Jewish people and I cannot fight antisemetism if I
do not fight any kind of racism and discrimination. That
means that on my daily basis, I also stand with Muslims,
Christians and any kind of people that are facing racism.
This is really important. This is our common fight to
live better together.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I'd love to ask you, I guess, like more on
your day to day role, how do you take all
of these ideals and put it into the work that
you're doing.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
So, what I think is that today in our daily life,
we need to we need to denounce. That means that
when I see that anti Semitism is becoming normal, when
I see that an anti Muslims act is happening, or
an anti Christian act is happening, my position as an
elected official is to denounce it and to say I
(11:49):
do not agree with this and we need to fight
these hates. So this is the first part to denounce it.
Then there is another part which is the solution, and
the solo according to me, is education but also justice.
And I do think that you can try to make
things change through education. We need to try to and
(12:12):
build cliche and stereotypes that are coming from education, both
at home but also at school, because it all comes
with education. You know, in the place where I am
elected in the sense on the new department, forty percent
of the population is aged less than twenty five years old.
And one of my main priority is to go into school,
(12:33):
to go in to see students and to build cliche
and stereotypes to say that not all Arabs are violent
as they would like to believe it, that all not
Jews are rich as they think about it, and that
fraternity and piece between Jews and Arabs is possible. There
(12:53):
is we need to make things. We need to make,
Like students understand that there is a difference in the
international conflict between Israel and Palestine and the situation in
France between Jews and Arabs. There's are two separate things,
and I don't find that an international conflict is the
maging our relation of peace and fraternity in France. And
(13:15):
then the third piar, I guess, is also about justice.
And I do think that we need to be more
rigorous and more stricts when it comes to punish hate online.
And I do think that there is on this topic
especially a huge responsibility of the digital platforms and social
(13:36):
media in order to prevent the like the sharing of
hate online and so on, to remove the content when
they are deemed to be about hate, and then to punish,
to punish them with a fine if needed. But I
do think that we now have several keys to adapt
(13:56):
in order to move forward a better world.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
I think something beautiful about what you're saying, and like
just from the conversation that we're having now, is that
you've kind of experienced that hate and people have come
for you for your identity and instead of turning around
and saying, Okay, well now I'm going to be angry
and hateful towards you, You're like, no, I'm showing you
that there's a different way. I think more people need
to be like that, and I think it's it's really
(14:20):
especially people who are in politics. I think we don't
see that enough. So I'm really happy that we're seeing
it now. I also think that in terms of social media,
it's almost as if the rules only start being made
as things happen, Like we've seen a lot of times
with like big social media CEOs, they only have to
deal with an issue once there's already been some sort
of scandal, and hopefully we sort of move towards something
(14:43):
that there's almost like not enough in place because people
can do whatever they want online. They can hide behind
a screen and say whatever they like, use a different name,
even if they use their own name. There's not really
that much punishment that goes with it. Maybe sometimes people
end up getting fired because it's you know, and that
in itself is something, But so there's not enough regulation
in place. And people have said things to me as well,
(15:04):
you know, like I've had so many different anti semty
especially it's in Suction twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I definitely agree with you, and especially like online you
can know, hate orthers with all like unveiling your identity,
and that's an issue. That's an issue because we cannot
like estimate the damage that it can cause, you know,
to young students, to young children in our contributors all
(15:30):
around the world. And I don't want now to have
the hate that is becoming even more fashion. Hate is
not normal, and we all know evolving in a society
where hating orders is becoming normal, something is going wrong.
And of course you do have some benefits with social
media today in order to be informed, to be connected,
to mobilize people, or so about to cause like you
(15:54):
do have some benefits, and we should also be honest
about this. This is like the future, this is about
technology and so on. But there are also some down
sides to innovation and we need to regulate. We need
to regulate it. AI, for example, many benefits, but we
can see that we do have also some down sites
and some disadvantages to these new technologies and hate online,
(16:17):
I guess is one of the main challenges we have
to address in the coming years, and it's urgent.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Is the kind of hete maybe the you experience so
that you see going on, what inspired you to write
your book? What did you get the inspiration for that?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
So my book actually is kind of a small baby
that I am unveiling now and I'm really happy now
to present it in a role and especially to you
at the Jerusalem Post. This book was about the personal story.
In this book, I share into tel transparency my personal background,
how I grew up with a power like parents, coming
(16:58):
from immigration, from a modest family. We are not especially rich,
but like I would like to share about the values
that I believe in. I also would like to share
about the love of my country. I'm particularly proud of
being French. This is a chance for me and also
pro to be jew and this is part of my
(17:19):
identity and I respect both. So like this book is
quite important to me. And this is not like an autobiography,
and I definitely want to be especially clear on this.
I'm not pretentious. I mean, I'm only twenty nine years old.
I have a lot to learn. But this is like
(17:41):
a book when I tell about some stories I have
experience so far, and also where I try to give
some solutions in order to commit hate in order to
integrate people in France, because I do think that we
have some problem when it comes to immigration and integration
in France. But I also like to yeah, fight any
kind of racism and discrimination. I mean, this book is
(18:04):
both like a shout of alom, like I would like
to make people understand that something is going wrong, especially
with the influence, for example, of the Muslim Brotherhood, which
is quite pureccupying both in France and in Europe, but
also to give some solutions, because I do think that
it's all about solutions and hope, And I mean I
(18:28):
hope that in this book people will see some lights
in this dark period.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
I think that's really special, and I hope that not
only does it get to the people who already know you,
but also people maybe haven't heard about it and they
need that feeling of hope. I know that, like there
are I know that Jews in France may feel unsafe.
We've been hearing for years, especially since the terror attacks
started happening, like over a decade ago, and even before then.
(18:57):
So what would you kind of say to the people
who are living in France Jewish people living in France
who may feel like that isn't a good future for them.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
You know this question, I heard it like on a
daily basis. Sure, you know, like French Jewish people that
comes and say, okay, I want to live this country anymore.
I don't like my place is not in France anymore.
I need to move to Israel or Elzrael basically. And
I mean this is like, this makes me really sad,
(19:27):
because I do think that the ties between French history
and Jewish people is quite intense, and I mean there
is a link that no one can contest, and we
need now to protect this link and to make it
even more stronger, especially in a situation where French Jewish
people are facing antesimitism on a daily basis. I just
(19:48):
to remind you of figure that also can make people
who are listening to us understand the situation in France
in twenty twenty two, so that means before October sevent
twenty twenty three, you had a ron like let's say
four hundred thirty thousand anti Semitic attacks that has been
identified in France. In twenty twenty four, this number rose
(20:09):
to more than one thousand and five hundred and seventy
anti Semitic attacks in France. This is absolutely and terrible.
That means that October seven has changed everything for French
Jewish people, that our anti Zionism is becoming normal, that
is becoming normal. That you need to hide your name
(20:29):
on yuber when asking for a driver because you need
to hide your Jewish identity, That you cannot have your
Mesusa on the door because you are Jewish. That you
are afraid when you put your schooling children because you
are afraid of antisemitism. This is the reality that we
have now in France, but also in Europe and in
all around the world. Let's say that the situation even
(20:51):
in the US. I have been traveling in the US
a few months ago, and I can tell you this
is the truth. In New York, in Harvard, in many you,
university anti semitism in campuses has becoming like really proccupying,
and we need to do something about this because it's
about education. It's about like shaping the mindset of future
(21:14):
generation and schools. University campuses cannot become the refuge to hate, basically.
So that's why I can understand the fact that some
French Jewish people would like to escape. But I will
say that This is not the solution. You know. One
of my motto when I woke up in the morning
(21:35):
is that it's when it's difficult that you have to fight.
It's when it's difficult that you have to stay. So
my advice and my belief is that we need to
fight again and again. I know it's difficult, but there
is still room for hope.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
How do you think that we can convey and by way,
I mean just Jews in general, that kind of message
I think outwardly like I think Jews themselves. Now, now
we understand the anti submitum is, we understand the anti
Semitism is rising. We know what the statistics look like.
We were following it all the time. The people who
are the ones who are kind of in between, the
(22:13):
people who are maybe saying I want to fight for
this cause, this feels right to me without really realizing
the undertones of what anti Semitic undertones that are. How
do we go about or in your opinion, how do
we go about trying to make people understand that maybe
the actions that they're taking are fueling hate, they are
going towards something that's a little bit more dangerous.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Actually, to answer your questions, I will say something which
is really basic, you know, like antisemitism and any kind
of racism and discrimination AIDS is about ignorance. You ignore
what you don't know about. So if we try to
and I know that this is something really hard. Is
a hard task to make people understand the roots of
(22:56):
the hevil, the roots of hate. It will make generation
to make things change, but we have to stand all together.
And I also think that there is a huge role
to play with interface dialogue. I do believe in interface
diolog in order to make changes in mindset. So on
a daily basis, I work with imams, rabbits and priests
(23:18):
in order to prove that fraternity and coexistence between religion
is possible. We are all brothers and sisters. And I
would like also to make people understand that there is
no difference because of religion. Like whatever your religion is,
we all need to fight in order to protect our values,
in order to respect others, in order to understand others.
(23:41):
And of course in France, for example, education is key,
education which is delivered by schools and teachers, and I
do think that on this field we have to protect
teachers and to like to teach them all to teach
basically interface dialogue and so on. But we also have
well to act on education at home and to make
(24:04):
like parents understand that they have also a huge role
to play in order to teach their children about peace
and mutual understanding.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
I really agree with what you're saying about interfaith dialogue
and things like that. I think we can apply those
rules also in Israel. You know, there's a lot of
spaces that still do that even after the war, which
is very special. I kind of want to talk a
little bit now about Israel and France. Where do you
think you see the best avenues for cooperation collaboration between
(24:34):
Israel and France, especially because I would say ever since
October seventh, Yeah, I think Israel and almost every other
country there are you know, strange ties in some way,
and it's very difficult for people to know how to
navigate it. So when do you see the future, I
guess for Israel and France.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I should at first, we should not forget the fact
that Israel is the only democracy in the region. That's
something which is important to remind people first, because I
know that in especially in the far left, you have
some political leaders that want to make people understand that
this is not the case, and that Israel is not
anymore democracy. Israel is the only democracy in the region.
(25:11):
This is like the basis. Then I also would like
to remind people that friends and Israel are friends. Friends
and Israel are friends, and that the ties between both
friends and Israel need to be protected whatever the international
situation is, through economic ties, cultural ties, innovation, education, like,
(25:35):
there are many things in common and we need to
cultivate it. I do not understand, to be fully honest
with you, that some artists are being boycott in friends,
boycotteds are in France because they are Jewish or Israeli.
This is like the worst situation ever. This is like
just stupid, and I do think that in France we
(25:57):
need to stand together with this artists that are just
like promoting culture, and most of them basically are promoting peace.
They are not nurturing hate. They are promoting peace through art,
through cultures, through innovations, through economy and so on. So
we have to strength these ties, and we have to
(26:19):
also to denounce what's happening here, of course, but to
make difference between Jews as welly and also the government
and the choices that have been made by some governments.
This is something which is quite different.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I think at the end of the day, what really
like stands out to me is a lot of times
with these things, I think a lot of people just
forget that there's just people who are living their lives.
Most of the time, we hear a lot about, you know,
the most extreme actions of human beings, but most of
the time people are getting up, they're trying to live
their lives. They hear bad news, they feel bad about it,
(26:56):
they want to continue on. And it feels like that's
just the content enuous sort of wave of people pointing
fingers and blaming, and I don't think that's really helping
the cause so much, definitely.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
I mean, you know, it's as I told before, it's
especially in France, you have like the politics and political
leaders that are nurturing anti semiticisms and at just that
unism in order to gain voters, especially among the Muslim community.
There are nuturing divisions between French people in order to
gain voters. And you know, I think that we know
(27:29):
how in France a toxic cocktail that means that ideology
is setting the fire. Political opportunism, like is nurturing the
flams and social tle fractures is kind of keeping the
fire alive. And we know how, we know how, I
(27:51):
guess your responsibility to play in order to denounce it,
and especially to denounce political opportunism. You know, on a
daily basis, where I am elected in Sane Sunday, the
area where I'm elected in, they are mostly people who
are from the far left, and I can see the
where they are functioning, especially a few months before the
(28:12):
municipal election that will take place in a few months
in twenty twenty six. Political opportunism from Monday to evening,
especially when it comes to the international conflict. They are
speaking of Gaza and Palestine from Monday to evening. Of course,
like we can definitely act for cause, support Palestinian people
(28:35):
and so on. This is the legitimate and I am
also standing in order to recognize at some point not
now a Palestinian state. But when you use the Palestinian
cause in order to gain voters among a certain part
of the population, this is unfair. This isn't fair, and
this is about manipulation, and I will keep fighting against this,
(28:58):
especially in the department, in the area where I'm elected in.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
You can tell from just you speaking about it, how
passionate the issue is, and also how I guess inspired.
I don't know what the right word would be, but
you are to really make change and I think we
need more people like that in the world.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
As we start to wrap up, I'm interested to know
what you would kind of want israeli is to know
a little bit more about French Jews, and what you'd
want French Jews to know a bit more about Israelis
because you've been in both places. You're trying to see
in the sometimes the divide probably or maybe I'm a surenderstanding.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I will be quite quite trothen quite clear. Friends is
a wonderful country. The link between his role and Friends
deeps and we should not forget about it. And I
will say that Israel so he's a wonderful country. He's
the Holy Land, and like we're all religion are gathered
(29:55):
all together. Is whether you are Christian, Jewish and Muslims.
You know, like when I'm going in Jerusalem, may always
have this feeling I'm really proud to be here. I
really love like as well, I really love Jerusalem, but
I'm really proud about also my country, which is Friends.
I'm really proud of being French, and I don't have
to choose between my Jewish identity and my French nationality.
(30:22):
This is part of my identity and I'm proved to
be both. So I just like to make people understand.
And this is also like the topic of this book,
that you can be both French and jew and.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
So what I think that's a perfect place to end.
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Thanks
a lot about your book and for just sharing your insights.
It's really important for us to hear, so thank you
so much.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Thanks a lot for your invitation. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
This episode was hosted, produced, and edited by Sheper Jacobs.
For more information about Japo's podcast, check the description of
this episode. This episode was hosted, produced, unedited by Sheppard
(38:46):
Jacobs and recorded in the jPOS studios in Jerusalem. For
more on d Post podcast For more for more information
(39:21):
on Dpost podcasts, check the description of this episode.
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