July 15, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode of "JPost sits down with...," Deputy Foreign Minister Sharren Haskel sits down with JPost Political Correspondent Eliav Breuer to discuss some of the most pressing issues surrounding the Middle East. They dive into Israel's stance on the ongoing Gaza conflict, its position on the international stage, and the implications of rising antisemitic rhetoric both in politics and social discourse. Sharren also reflects on Israel's strategic relations with neighboring countries, shedding light on how Israel must navigate these complex dynamics in the face of mounting regional challenges.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is JPO sits down with. In this episode, we
sit down with Sharon Hascal, It Israel's wuty Foreign Minister.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'd like to welcome to the studio Deputy Foreign Minister
Sharon has Scale of the United Rights Party. Sharen recently
returned from a diplomatic visit to Italy and she's been
very active in interviewing to dozens of foreign media sites
and we have a lot to talk about. So thank
you very much for coming to our studio, Sharen.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So I want to start. We're we're filming on July fourteenth,
so by the time this airs, things might have changed
and we know how things are.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Every half an hour things j.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I do want to ask, how close are we now
to reaching a hostage deal.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
We're not there yet, unfortunately. Look, there's nothing more that
we want them to bring them back home and as
quickly and as safely as possible. We've said yes now,
just in recent months three times to a cease fire. Unfortunately,
Hamas's refuse even now when whit Cough took a few
(01:04):
more steps towards Hamasa's demands and put a new proposal
on the table about two and a half weeks ago.
Israel said yes, even though we had some issues, we
said on a principle, we can resolve it when we
talk about the small details. But we said yes. And
what did Haramas do? Came with another proposal that they suggestion.
(01:27):
I mean, this is not responding positively to that offer,
to Whitkof's proposal. But even though they didn't reply positively,
we decided to send a delegation to Doha try to
see whether we can bridge the gap. And so I
told also the reporters, you know, just pace yourself. We're
not there yet. This is going to take a little
(01:49):
bit of time because there's a lot of things to
talk about. There's certain things will be able to go
towards their demands, but some of the things that request
is absolutely impossible. This is Hamas's demands. They literally one
Israel to surrender. Look, just two weeks ago, we've lost
five soldiers in Betraannon. Betronon is a neighborhood that we
(02:09):
cleaned from Hamas three times, three times. So every time
we have a ceasefire, it takes us back dramatically and
gives Kamas the opportunity to take over back a lot
of the territory, to trap, to put bombs in certain areas,
it endanger our people. We pay a grave price for it.
(02:29):
And so there's certain things that we have to make
sure will stay, to make sure Hamas will not hold
any civilian or military power. We cannot surrender to Hamas
because if we surrender to Hamas, it's only a matter
of time before they can take another two hundred and
fifty hostages and hold them in those dungeons of torture.
(02:50):
It's only a matter of time before they will go
in and commit another massacre like they did. And so
you know, the first thing in our minds is the hostages.
That's why this war is being so long, so difficult,
But we are committed for that. Israel's a country who
(03:11):
cherish life.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
What do you say to critics who say that, you know,
the hostages don't have time, whereas you know in any case,
weeding out Hamas from Gaza will take years. So why
not make a deal, even if it's a temporary surrender
so to speak. But taking into account the fact that
the hostages need to be saved now, whereas Commas can
be defeated later on.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
If you surrender to Hamas and withdraw your troop back
and you have international guarantees, including the Americans, do you
really believe we can go into another operation about that?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
What does that mean the American like guarantee you.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
At the end of the day. As we speak now
as well, do you think Hamas is not listening to it?
Do you think Hamas doesn't hear those statements of you
know exp who say, oh, just deceive Hamas and then
you know, go back after you take the hospital of course,
and listening to it. That's why they demand from the
(04:08):
Americans different guarantees, and so it doesn't work that way.
The first agenda and the first thing we want is
to bring back our family members home as quickly and
as safely as possible. We work tiresly for that. But
at the same hand, to surrender to Hamas means it's
(04:31):
only a matter of time before there are another round
of hundreds of hostages, another massacre with thousands of dead,
I mean, those crimes against humanity that were committed on
the seventh of October. My rule is to make sure
this never happens again, and to make sure we know
that Hamas cannot hold any civilian or military power. And
(04:55):
I know it seems, you know, like such a long time,
But it takes a long time because we took concession,
because we went into a ceasefire, because we wedraw our
truth time after time, and then we have to do
the whole operation over and over again. Why because we
wanted to bring them back alive and as quickly as possible.
(05:16):
This is our goal. So it's a complicated situation. Things
are not black and white like many people want to
describe it.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
So tell me a little bit about were replacing Hamas's
civilian capacities.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
So we see how Hamas is panicking, especially during the
last few weeks because of the American company, the Gaza
Humanitarian Fund, who's been working to distribute free aid. Look,
Haramas holds to power. One is the military power, one
is the civilian power. And from a full operational army,
(05:50):
they turn into what is called a gorilla group. During
the last cease fire, when Gaza was flooded with humanitarian aid,
you saw two things that were happening. One of them
was Hamas was pocketing millions of dollars from that aid,
selling it in the market, taxing it benefiting from it.
(06:13):
The second thing is how we saw Hamas empowering its
military back to its feet, meaning that was the first
time that Hamas was able to pay one hundred percent
of all Hamasa's salaries from since the seventh of October.
So first time that we saw how Haramas is able
to recruit new terrorists to find in its rows how
(06:38):
to pay for weapons and arms, and so it uses
that humanitarian aid to arm itself again, which makes our
life very difficult because then you have more terrorists. You
need to eliminate more weapons they're acquiring. Okay, and a
(06:58):
morally strong terrorist organization where it failed, it has the
upper hand. It takes you back dramatically.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Its idea is to somehow find a way to let
aid into the civilian population without.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
It, without power, without going through Haramas. I refuse the
statement or the fact that the United Nations or in
some people in the international community are trying to pose
on us which the humanitarian aid can only go through
a terrorist organization. It doesn't work like that anywhere else
(07:35):
in the world. The fact is that in Yemen, when
the routies were taking over some aid and were abducting
humanitarian aid workers. The United Nations stopped the aid to Yemen.
I mean, it's logic, and so we had to make
sure there's a facilitation of a different channel of humanitarian aid.
(07:58):
There's the old channel. It doesn't work logistically. It's being looted.
It sits and wait for trucks to come and pick
it up. That's the old mechanism. But it didn't work
properly anyway. But then there's a new channel. Okay, with
free aid. They don't need to pay for it. It
reaches directly the civilians. And HAMAS is panicking because through
(08:23):
the aid, HAMAS is in control of the civilian population.
If you control who it's eat, how much, where, who
gets the shelter, who gets the medical assistant, then you're
in control of the population. If the Americans are the
one who are distributing the food and the shelter and
anything else, then HAMAS lose its power. And that's why
(08:46):
they went in order to destroy the reputation of this organization.
Fight it was it killed humanitarian aid worker, attacked the bus,
attacked American workers as well. Place the bounty a price
on the heads of any humanitarian worker so that it
becomes a hostile environment, and so they are doing everything
(09:09):
in the capability to shut that down. And the world
needs to understand that if they continue to distribute aid
through hamas it empowers them, understand, it creates a longer war,
It will have much more casualties. And the people who
are paying the worst price are the Palestinians themselves.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
So there's this idea that's come up in the cabinet
meeting last night and repeatedly over the past couple of weeks,
about this new humanitarian city idea. That are those who
are claiming that it's you know, the use of the
word concentration, concentrate the civilians. So tell me what the
idea is and how do you answer critics.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
I heard these statements, you know, including Golan. These are shameful.
I have no idea how he's capable of waking up
and looking in the mirror. He knows himself he's lying.
On the one hand, him and all the other critics
are saying, oh, give shelters to civilians, to women's to children.
What happens in Sudan and in Syria, in Afghanistan or
(10:11):
any or in Ukraine, any war zone. Okay, civilians can
flee to neighboring countries to find refuge until the end
of the war. Why don't Egypt, Jordan, Europe they accept
millions of Syrians, but no Palestinians including Egypt or how
(10:31):
come that is so different? But yet the international community
and Hire Golan is blaming the Israeli government for what
the international community have politicized and created far greater casualties
than what should have been because they turn it into
a political issue instead of a humanitarian issue that we
(10:54):
need to resolve, and so they put the responsibility on
the Israeli government. So now that the Israeli goes government
is trying to resolve it by finding a humanitarian safe
zone for civilian we've been criticizing as well. So you
need to make a choice. Either you take responsibility and
you shelter them, or you accept what we see as
(11:16):
a proper shelter for civilians. But coming and complaining and
saying you need to be responsible and not accepting the
solution is idiotic. I'm sorry, but I'm not surprised because
there's always a different sentards towards Israel. Israel always being
blamed for everything. Okay, but these are complete lines and
(11:37):
we know it we put those sounds aside, and we
will continue to do what is right. If anyone else
has a different idea on how to shelter civilians, not
through the poor per channels of what happens all around
the world, because they refuse, not by what the Israeli
government has found fit as a humanitarian program. Come and
(11:58):
bring your idea, but I'm sorry, the only other solution
for them is for us to surrender to Hamas, to
keep Hamas so that our children are going to be
in danger for generations to come. That's not acceptable. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
So explained just the idea for those who aren't familiar.
What is this idea of the humanitarian city.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
It means a humanitarian zone, a safe zone for women
people who will enter there. We will try to make
sure that these are not commases as well, and that
will be a safe area where you can also facilitate
humanitarian aid. So you bring the organizations for food, for shelter,
for medical aid, and you put them in one place
(12:39):
where they can get all their needs, where they are
safe from a war against Hamas. I mean Hamas is
using them. We've seen those images even in the start
when Palestinians were trying to flee from the north to
the south. Hamass snipers were shooting them, so they don't
(13:00):
flee into a safe zone. It was Israeli soldiers who
had to protect the Palestinians and eliminate the Hamas's snipers
so that they have a safe fruit for refuge. So
we know how Hamas is using them as a shield.
We try to find a protected area where they can
be safe until we're able to eliminate Kamas.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
So once we eliminate Kamas, you know, in the in
the in the best case scenario, we you know, we
somehow managed to build the humanitarian said he separate commas
from civilians to feed Kamas. The famous day after question
who will rule? What is Israel's strategy or policy about
who will rule gods of the day after we Defeitmas.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Okay, it's a question that doesn't you know, it's not
just Israel's to the side. What do you think, Look,
there's a few different ideas. I think that one of
the suggestions and some of the discussions that were made
around it about an international committee with our Abrahamic friends
(14:04):
that will be in charge not just of reconstruction, but
on looking after the civilian aspect of it, but the
education system and the sewage and everything that's needed. I mean,
Gaza need to be reconstructed. I think that's probably a
good idea. This will be in collaboration with Israel, with
(14:25):
the Americans to try and liberate the Palestinian society from
the whold of terrorist organizations to live a better life. Look,
one of the most important questions that I believe needs
to be talked about is the education. In the Abraham Accords,
(14:45):
one of the fundamental legs for education, they reformed their
curriculum to take out any anti Semitic content, put in
story call events like the Second World War, like the
peace Agreement with Egypt, the peace agreement with Jordan, to
(15:06):
talk about the possibility of living side by side together
in coexistence. The main conversation has to be about education.
How to deradicalize a population that's been indoctrinated for generations
by a terrorist radical organization and Nazi isis organization. That's
(15:26):
the real conversation. Because if you want to talk about
a solution, about a process, you know, let's you know,
we can talk about many things. If we want to
talk about a future or Israelis and Palestinians can live
side by side. We have to talk about education on
how to really live side by side. And I think
(15:48):
that Ron Delmeerao's representative on this issue, and he's been
having discussions since the beginning of the war, and it's
been outside of the ear of the media, rightfully, yes,
because every time something comes up, someone's trying to obliterate it.
But I think that finally a few months ago, so
(16:11):
the Arab League sat down started to have a conversation
about the day after where they refused before, which is
a good step.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
So if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is
you think at least that the solution for the day
after should be our Abrahamic partners somehow like.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
An international form that's going to govern the civilian life
until you know, maybe I don't know if it can
happen this generation, but maybe the next generation is going
to be a leader that will want to live beside
the Jews.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
So parts of your of the government is speaking otherwise
we have, you know, parts of what's my you did
it and parts of the Likud who are talking about
full Israeli control over God. So what are you is
what you're saying that that's not Israel's policy.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
As you know, it's not Israel's policy.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Those voices are quite loud in that.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
There's also extreme voices on the other side like Goolan
and the other radical idea like a Woodbrak and all
who's been speaking about very radical ideas on the left.
And you know what, what's beautiful about Israel. Everybody are
allowed entitle to their opinion and they can talk about it. Yeah,
(17:24):
but they're pushing towards it, right. You see what they're
doing in the media, how they're damaging Israel's reputation, lying
full out line that's happen about what's been happening here
because the political agenda. So they might not be politician,
but the title of former prime ministers is giving them
(17:44):
the authentity of trying as a political move to try
and not just line the story about the reality of
what's happening here, but to try and push to a radical,
impossible solution. So we can talk about it, we can
discuss it, but at the end of the day, the
(18:05):
ideas are coming to the cabinet, it's being voted there
and I think it's very clear what's been happening and
that's why Ron Derman is the one to lead, got
it the issue of the day after.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
So let's shift. We talk a lot about guys and
now a little bit more than we spoke about it
at length, which is great. You're the Deputy Foreign Minister,
So I want to shift a little bit to foreign policy.
Israel's international standing. Could you just, in a brief few sentences,
tell me give us a briefing about the status of
Israel's international standing at the moment in institutions such as
the UN with our partners and allies.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Okay, So I think that you need to see it
through a few glasses. One of them is that our
enemies are using the international forums to try and tie
israel hands in order to surrender to our enemies. And
they've been using it, not just now, but throughout many years.
I think since the foundation of it. They've been using them.
(19:01):
But it's very very present during this war, and how
they've abused international forms and organizations in order not just
to blacken Israel's reputation, but to destroy Israel. If we
cannot defend ourselves, how are we capable of surviving in
(19:24):
such a hostile environment? Think about it, which country had
to face six different fronts, six different entities that have
been fighting the country unprovoked. It's insane. And because we've
shown strength and we are able to push them out,
they've been trying to use the international forms the media,
(19:45):
spreading lies, propaganda, blood libels. But we know, you know,
Al Jazeera is the mouthpiece of the Muslim brotherhood. It
has a massive effect on the public opinion as well.
But you know here in is we see a lot
of the negative side of it, and there is there's
a lot of pressure. Countries like Spain, Norway, Ireland are
(20:09):
very active and very extreme in their point of view. Yeah,
supporting terrorist organization, in support of the IRGC, in support
of Hamas. These are terrorist organizations and we've been fighting
it with some of our allies and friends. You could
hear the leader, the Councelor of Germany at the G
(20:31):
seven meetings saying, Israel's doing the dirty work of the world,
and rightfully, we do. The only reason why hopefully, you know,
we don't know exactly how it's going to turn yet,
but in five years or ten years from now, they
won't be German or Italian, or British or American soldiers
on Iranian soil fighting a country with nuclear weapon, with
(20:55):
mass destruction weapon is because of what Israel did. Right now,
there's an opportunity, a window, and that leadership understand and appreciate.
We have many allies, but obviously with a biased in
many country media, those anti voices are getting a far
(21:16):
greater stage to echo their messages than others.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Has there been any harm media side in terms of
actual you know, like things that can actually damage or
sanctions or stuff like that. Has there been anything on
the UN stage that U stage or something like that
that's hurt us look especially? Or is the situation in
control and.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Loc It's a battle that we are constantly fighting. I
just returned from Rome. Guidon was in Austria with the
German councilor and the Austrian the foreign ministers together. He's
going on different missions. We are all around Europe trying
to tighten the bonds and the bridges. It's not something
and can take for granted. This is work that we're
(22:01):
actually doing to strengthen those friendship and to make sure
that our allies stay with us. Because there's always that
pressure from other leadership to push it out. It's interesting
you need to understand this is not just about Israel.
It's far greater than that. What do you mean, Look
on the rise of anti Semitism. The war is just
(22:22):
an excuse. There's a wave of hatred going through Europe.
It's being inflamed by a lot of immigration, Muslim immigration
from the Middle East, with many countries who in their
education system the curriculum is anti Semitic, is racist, some
(22:42):
of it is even Nazi. Then they're going into their
new home and instead of assimilating, they are pushing their beliefs,
their culture and their radical racist ideas about Jews in
their new country. And you see, you know, almost two
(23:03):
hundred seats, for example, in England are being dictated in
just a few votes by radical Islamist communities, very pro
Palestinian communities in parliament. Yeah, and that has a major
effect on what those representatives are going to say, what
(23:28):
they need to do in order to preserve their seats.
I'm a politician as well. I can understand that. I
think it's wrong. I think you should do first what's
right for your country, for your people, to stand beside
what's moral. But you can understand some of these politicians
who are looking after their seats and what they need
(23:51):
to voice out to please the crowd, and that plays
a major role in what you see in some European
countries as well. That created also a wave, massive wave
of anti Semitism where you know, the lack of enforcement,
it's being normalized, the lack of persecution, persecution, prosecution, prosecution,
(24:18):
you know, and then there's no deterrence, and then you
see an interesting cycle where the far left, the socialists,
the pro Palestinians, the radical Islamist or joining forces and
sometime marching together with neo Nazis on the far right
against the Jews. So the war in many cases it's
(24:39):
just an excuse. You know, the rapper that was singing
in Glastonbury a few weeks ago stating all these racist
death chants to Jews. Before that, he was chanting to
murder police in England. He hates the UK more than
(25:00):
he hates Israel. This is sort of a fashion and
anti Western democracy fashion, and it's been flooding Europe, America, Canada,
and that is very, very dangerous. You know. I wrote
an article a few weeks ago to the French newspaper
(25:22):
and I said, you know what, the Jews will always
be safe. My grandma who was attacked in Paris with
fists and kicks, eighty eight year old grandmother. I said,
there's no room for Jews in France anymore. Come home,
come to Israel. But I'm not worried about the Jews.
They will always have a shelter. What are the French
(25:43):
going to do?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Interesting say something about the French Saudi summit that we
know is coming up.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
I think, you know, it's just another attempt to gain
public international stage doesn't have a meaning. There's many countries
who declared the Palatines. They need to change reality. No,
there are more than I think. It was ninety eight
parliament member in Israel who voted against the declaration of
(26:12):
a Palestinian state. This is Israeli public after the worst
massacre of Jews and the Holocaust, and Macron is wanting
to reward the terrorist organization Hamas with a state after
the crimes against humanity they committed. Their independence day is
going to be celebrated on the seventh of October.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
It's absurd from from a foreign policy standpoint. These are
you know, these aren't just two minor countries. This is
France and Saudi Arabia. There, our allies, our partners. This
is weel worried about. You know the implications of this.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Look, I'm not worried because it doesn't have any meaning,
any effective meaning.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Than it's more declaratory than.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
I'll tell you what I'm worried about. Every declaration like
that gives Hamas a breadth of air. So when Hamas
is listening constantly to international media, to Israeli media, to
international events that are unfolding, every declaration like that, every
(27:15):
actions against Israel takes us further from AC's fire because
they think, oh, here it comes. Let's wait another month,
let's wait another week. Let's continue to say no because
here France comes and they're going to give us a
gift a state. So we just need to hold on
(27:35):
a little bit further so that we can be rewarded.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
So we designated our goals as taking out the nuclear
threat and the ballistic threat. There's been different reports as
to have we from have we obliterated the threat to
push it off to a few years now. There were
a few weeks after the end of the of the
of the operation. How successful were it and what do
(28:00):
you think the long term implication is there?
Speaker 3 (28:02):
So for all, I think it was very successful. You know,
you were talking about some of the isolation and what's
happening in the international community. The Middle East is looking
very closely on what Israel is doing, whether it's capable
of defending itself. We got many points. We could hear
(28:22):
the singing and the celebrations all around the Middle East
after we were able to obliterate Iran's military nuclear program.
It's not just a threat on Israel. The first threat
is the Middle East. They are the biggest cause of instability,
biggest funders of terrors.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
But is the nuclear threat over or so?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
First of all, this operation was brilliant, very professionally, and
that showed Israel's strength and it created it opened doors
that hopefully within a few months the public will know
much more about it as well.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
You're talking about diplomatic.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Or absolutely because in the Middle East, you understand strength
and people want to be close to you after they
understand also your capability. The other thing about the nuclear
program that you've asked, look our intelligence assessment and the
picture that was built. The assessment is that we were
(29:27):
able to push it back between two to three years.
Now there's two options. We're in an intersection. That's what
I said in the beginning, that we have opportunities now,
and this intersection means that Iran needs to make a decision.
Is it going to go into a diplomatic channel, not
(29:48):
like before it's lying and deceiving the international community and
build a nuclear military program and weapon behind its back,
but real diplomatic channels. They can import enriched uranium if
they want for civilian use or anything like that, but
not enrich on their land period. And if it wants,
(30:11):
then it means the Middle East is going to be
safer for generations to come. And the other one if
they want to continue the way that it was until now,
and we will have to make sure that they will
not reach not the enriched uranium and not the facilities
and not nuclear new nuclear military program.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Has there been any indication, it's a very early stage.
But to which of those two paths Eran seems to
be heading on or is too early to tell because
we've heard some so our.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Logic, you know, I would say a Western democracy, a
nation that believes in freedom and fight for freedom. Our
logic is not the IRGC logic. And I specifically say
that because the logic the Persian people is our logic,
(31:04):
but it's not their regime. This is a terrorist organization
whose goal is world Islamic dominancy sharia, a caliphate ruled
by Iran. And when your highest cause is murdered them
is death. How do you do diplomacy with that? So
(31:28):
it's difficult, and that's why intelligence and keeping your eyes
open and reality are so important. I was asked by
some reporters. They didn't have a nuclear military program. They
only had this and that they reached until sixty percent.
They had an enrichment facility, conversion facility, ballistic missile program
(31:50):
that da da da, But they don't put the dots together.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Oh really, it looks like a duck.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
So if you are a naive, you're not going to
survive in the Middle East. I'm sorry, and that somewhat
European naivity or Western democracy naivity, as if they think
the same way. Sorry, it doesn't work, And we'll have
to keep our eyes open and our intelligence flowing and
our military strength at its head at the top of
(32:21):
the age and the quality today we understand how important
is the quality of the weapons, of the technology, of
your capabilities. And Israel will have to continue and lead
that together with the Americans.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
You mentioned the opening doors. Were you referring to an
expansion of the abraham courts?
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
And can you say something about that? No, give me something.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Look, it seems like there's a few countries who would
want to go into the Abraham of courts. They're going
to enter on the right time. I think that President
Trump has unimaginable things. I think also Prime Minister Nataniell
striving towards those achievements to secure the Middle East, to
create stability and bridges is incredible. If you look back
(33:15):
a few years back, you won't imagine that's a possibility.
But as a strong leader, real leaders of the free world.
That's what it means to be a leader of the
free world, that you are strong and determine enough and
(33:36):
can be tough in order to defend freedom. And you know,
and and and I think they deserve the credit for that.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
What's going on between is round Syria.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Look, we keep our eyes open. We are very concerned.
I saw that yesterday to Key led another attack on
the Kurdish people.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Uh Israel has been supportive.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Of It's not just Israel, the Western civilization owe the
Kurdish people a debt. They fought and destroyed Isis a
serious threat for humanity. They paid a serious price and
we owe them a debt. And the regime in Syria
is going to be judged by its actions towards the
(34:31):
minority in Syria, whether it's the Kurdish, Alawi, Christian, drus
and many others.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
And what have you learned in the time since they've
taken out.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
We have to keep our eyes open, but Israel.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Is talking to the Syrian Nusian region, which is itself.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
First of all, there wasn't any reports of Israel's meeting
officials and it hasn't been happening on a fit in
like channels and things like that. We are very concerns
about the minorities. You understand our relationship also with the
Jruis community. If the needs of humanitarian aid that will
(35:15):
be provided to them and Israel did provided and the
safety of them, we're greatly concerned for that. But there's
a lot of trust that needs to be built because
don't forget this leader was the leader of al Qaida,
(35:36):
it was a leader in Isis. This is a terrorist
mind and whether it can be reformed I don't know.
Many research here in Israel shows they can't. So it's
going to be a serious.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Question Saudi Arabia, how close are we to break through?
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Look, obviously it's being discussed throughout any years, including now.
I think that the leadership needs to make a decision, and.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I think leadership here in Saudi Arabia.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
In Saudi Arabia, I heard even a statement talking how
they shouldn't sacrifice the future of the Saudi people because
of the Palestinian cause and how the Palestinian leadership have
destroyed so many opportunities. I mean, the offer for Palestinian
(36:33):
state was there on the table for years, multiple times
they refused. They didn't want it. Why because the bigger
goal was not a Palestinian state. It was to obliterate
the state of Israel, killing all the Jews in Israel
and out. It's a religious cause, it's not a territorial
aspiration in a sense of a state, but for the
(36:58):
entire and I think that the Saudi needs to make
that choice as well, like Egypt did, like Jordan did,
like the Amiratis Bahraini.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Saudi Saudi Arabia seems to be saying that they seem
to have made the choice, which is that they will
not normalize with Israel until there's a clear path to
palicity in the statehood. So are you saying that, I think.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
I think, first of all, they need to make that choice.
But as you heard, these are reports as well, and
many statements like that we've heard before. We heard it
from the Egyptians. Do we have a peace agreement? We
heard it from the Jordanians. Do we have a peace
agreement with them?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
So some pieces possible in Saudi Arabia, even if we
don't necessarily accept.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
I believe so.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Sharon Ascal, thank you very much. That was fascinating.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
The pleasure was all mine. Thank you, Thank you great much,
Thank you so much. This episode was hosted by ELIAV.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Breyer and was produced by Kashat News and addis heard
by Super Jacobs and Azra Taylor. This episode was recorded
in the j Post Studios in Jerusalem.
This is JPO sits down with. In this episode, we
sit down with Sharon Hascal, It Israel's wuty Foreign Minister.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'd like to welcome to the studio Deputy Foreign Minister
Sharon has Scale of the United Rights Party. Sharen recently
returned from a diplomatic visit to Italy and she's been
very active in interviewing to dozens of foreign media sites
and we have a lot to talk about. So thank
you very much for coming to our studio, Sharen.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So I want to start. We're we're filming on July fourteenth,
so by the time this airs, things might have changed
and we know how things are.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Every half an hour things j.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
I do want to ask, how close are we now
to reaching a hostage deal.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
We're not there yet, unfortunately. Look, there's nothing more that
we want them to bring them back home and as
quickly and as safely as possible. We've said yes now,
just in recent months three times to a cease fire. Unfortunately,
Hamas's refuse even now when whit Cough took a few
(01:04):
more steps towards Hamasa's demands and put a new proposal
on the table about two and a half weeks ago.
Israel said yes, even though we had some issues, we
said on a principle, we can resolve it when we
talk about the small details. But we said yes. And
what did Haramas do? Came with another proposal that they suggestion.
(01:27):
I mean, this is not responding positively to that offer,
to Whitkof's proposal. But even though they didn't reply positively,
we decided to send a delegation to Doha try to
see whether we can bridge the gap. And so I
told also the reporters, you know, just pace yourself. We're
not there yet. This is going to take a little
(01:49):
bit of time because there's a lot of things to
talk about. There's certain things will be able to go
towards their demands, but some of the things that request
is absolutely impossible. This is Hamas's demands. They literally one
Israel to surrender. Look, just two weeks ago, we've lost
five soldiers in Betraannon. Betronon is a neighborhood that we
(02:09):
cleaned from Hamas three times, three times. So every time
we have a ceasefire, it takes us back dramatically and
gives Kamas the opportunity to take over back a lot
of the territory, to trap, to put bombs in certain areas,
it endanger our people. We pay a grave price for it.
(02:29):
And so there's certain things that we have to make
sure will stay, to make sure Hamas will not hold
any civilian or military power. We cannot surrender to Hamas
because if we surrender to Hamas, it's only a matter
of time before they can take another two hundred and
fifty hostages and hold them in those dungeons of torture.
(02:50):
It's only a matter of time before they will go
in and commit another massacre like they did. And so
you know, the first thing in our minds is the hostages.
That's why this war is being so long, so difficult,
But we are committed for that. Israel's a country who
(03:11):
cherish life.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
What do you say to critics who say that, you know,
the hostages don't have time, whereas you know in any case,
weeding out Hamas from Gaza will take years. So why
not make a deal, even if it's a temporary surrender
so to speak. But taking into account the fact that
the hostages need to be saved now, whereas Commas can
be defeated later on.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
If you surrender to Hamas and withdraw your troop back
and you have international guarantees, including the Americans, do you
really believe we can go into another operation about that?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
What does that mean the American like guarantee you.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
At the end of the day. As we speak now
as well, do you think Hamas is not listening to it?
Do you think Hamas doesn't hear those statements of you
know exp who say, oh, just deceive Hamas and then
you know, go back after you take the hospital of course,
and listening to it. That's why they demand from the
(04:08):
Americans different guarantees, and so it doesn't work that way.
The first agenda and the first thing we want is
to bring back our family members home as quickly and
as safely as possible. We work tiresly for that. But
at the same hand, to surrender to Hamas means it's
(04:31):
only a matter of time before there are another round
of hundreds of hostages, another massacre with thousands of dead,
I mean, those crimes against humanity that were committed on
the seventh of October. My rule is to make sure
this never happens again, and to make sure we know
that Hamas cannot hold any civilian or military power. And
(04:55):
I know it seems, you know, like such a long time,
But it takes a long time because we took concession,
because we went into a ceasefire, because we wedraw our
truth time after time, and then we have to do
the whole operation over and over again. Why because we
wanted to bring them back alive and as quickly as possible.
(05:16):
This is our goal. So it's a complicated situation. Things
are not black and white like many people want to
describe it.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
So tell me a little bit about were replacing Hamas's
civilian capacities.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
So we see how Hamas is panicking, especially during the
last few weeks because of the American company, the Gaza
Humanitarian Fund, who's been working to distribute free aid. Look,
Haramas holds to power. One is the military power, one
is the civilian power. And from a full operational army,
(05:50):
they turn into what is called a gorilla group. During
the last cease fire, when Gaza was flooded with humanitarian aid,
you saw two things that were happening. One of them
was Hamas was pocketing millions of dollars from that aid,
selling it in the market, taxing it benefiting from it.
(06:13):
The second thing is how we saw Hamas empowering its
military back to its feet, meaning that was the first
time that Hamas was able to pay one hundred percent
of all Hamasa's salaries from since the seventh of October.
So first time that we saw how Haramas is able
to recruit new terrorists to find in its rows how
(06:38):
to pay for weapons and arms, and so it uses
that humanitarian aid to arm itself again, which makes our
life very difficult because then you have more terrorists. You
need to eliminate more weapons they're acquiring. Okay, and a
(06:58):
morally strong terrorist organization where it failed, it has the
upper hand. It takes you back dramatically.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Its idea is to somehow find a way to let
aid into the civilian population without.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
It, without power, without going through Haramas. I refuse the
statement or the fact that the United Nations or in
some people in the international community are trying to pose
on us which the humanitarian aid can only go through
a terrorist organization. It doesn't work like that anywhere else
(07:35):
in the world. The fact is that in Yemen, when
the routies were taking over some aid and were abducting
humanitarian aid workers. The United Nations stopped the aid to Yemen.
I mean, it's logic, and so we had to make
sure there's a facilitation of a different channel of humanitarian aid.
(07:58):
There's the old channel. It doesn't work logistically. It's being looted.
It sits and wait for trucks to come and pick
it up. That's the old mechanism. But it didn't work
properly anyway. But then there's a new channel. Okay, with
free aid. They don't need to pay for it. It
reaches directly the civilians. And HAMAS is panicking because through
(08:23):
the aid, HAMAS is in control of the civilian population.
If you control who it's eat, how much, where, who
gets the shelter, who gets the medical assistant, then you're
in control of the population. If the Americans are the
one who are distributing the food and the shelter and
anything else, then HAMAS lose its power. And that's why
(08:46):
they went in order to destroy the reputation of this organization.
Fight it was it killed humanitarian aid worker, attacked the bus,
attacked American workers as well. Place the bounty a price
on the heads of any humanitarian worker so that it
becomes a hostile environment, and so they are doing everything
(09:09):
in the capability to shut that down. And the world
needs to understand that if they continue to distribute aid
through hamas it empowers them, understand, it creates a longer war,
It will have much more casualties. And the people who
are paying the worst price are the Palestinians themselves.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
So there's this idea that's come up in the cabinet
meeting last night and repeatedly over the past couple of weeks,
about this new humanitarian city idea. That are those who
are claiming that it's you know, the use of the
word concentration, concentrate the civilians. So tell me what the
idea is and how do you answer critics.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
I heard these statements, you know, including Golan. These are shameful.
I have no idea how he's capable of waking up
and looking in the mirror. He knows himself he's lying.
On the one hand, him and all the other critics
are saying, oh, give shelters to civilians, to women's to children.
What happens in Sudan and in Syria, in Afghanistan or
(10:11):
any or in Ukraine, any war zone. Okay, civilians can
flee to neighboring countries to find refuge until the end
of the war. Why don't Egypt, Jordan, Europe they accept
millions of Syrians, but no Palestinians including Egypt or how
(10:31):
come that is so different? But yet the international community
and Hire Golan is blaming the Israeli government for what
the international community have politicized and created far greater casualties
than what should have been because they turn it into
a political issue instead of a humanitarian issue that we
(10:54):
need to resolve, and so they put the responsibility on
the Israeli government. So now that the Israeli goes government
is trying to resolve it by finding a humanitarian safe
zone for civilian we've been criticizing as well. So you
need to make a choice. Either you take responsibility and
you shelter them, or you accept what we see as
(11:16):
a proper shelter for civilians. But coming and complaining and
saying you need to be responsible and not accepting the
solution is idiotic. I'm sorry, but I'm not surprised because
there's always a different sentards towards Israel. Israel always being
blamed for everything. Okay, but these are complete lines and
(11:37):
we know it we put those sounds aside, and we
will continue to do what is right. If anyone else
has a different idea on how to shelter civilians, not
through the poor per channels of what happens all around
the world, because they refuse, not by what the Israeli
government has found fit as a humanitarian program. Come and
(11:58):
bring your idea, but I'm sorry, the only other solution
for them is for us to surrender to Hamas, to
keep Hamas so that our children are going to be
in danger for generations to come. That's not acceptable. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
So explained just the idea for those who aren't familiar.
What is this idea of the humanitarian city.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
It means a humanitarian zone, a safe zone for women
people who will enter there. We will try to make
sure that these are not commases as well, and that
will be a safe area where you can also facilitate
humanitarian aid. So you bring the organizations for food, for shelter,
for medical aid, and you put them in one place
(12:39):
where they can get all their needs, where they are
safe from a war against Hamas. I mean Hamas is
using them. We've seen those images even in the start
when Palestinians were trying to flee from the north to
the south. Hamass snipers were shooting them, so they don't
(13:00):
flee into a safe zone. It was Israeli soldiers who
had to protect the Palestinians and eliminate the Hamas's snipers
so that they have a safe fruit for refuge. So
we know how Hamas is using them as a shield.
We try to find a protected area where they can
be safe until we're able to eliminate Kamas.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
So once we eliminate Kamas, you know, in the in
the in the best case scenario, we you know, we
somehow managed to build the humanitarian said he separate commas
from civilians to feed Kamas. The famous day after question
who will rule? What is Israel's strategy or policy about
who will rule gods of the day after we Defeitmas.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Okay, it's a question that doesn't you know, it's not
just Israel's to the side. What do you think, Look,
there's a few different ideas. I think that one of
the suggestions and some of the discussions that were made
around it about an international committee with our Abrahamic friends
(14:04):
that will be in charge not just of reconstruction, but
on looking after the civilian aspect of it, but the
education system and the sewage and everything that's needed. I mean,
Gaza need to be reconstructed. I think that's probably a
good idea. This will be in collaboration with Israel, with
(14:25):
the Americans to try and liberate the Palestinian society from
the whold of terrorist organizations to live a better life. Look,
one of the most important questions that I believe needs
to be talked about is the education. In the Abraham Accords,
(14:45):
one of the fundamental legs for education, they reformed their
curriculum to take out any anti Semitic content, put in
story call events like the Second World War, like the
peace Agreement with Egypt, the peace agreement with Jordan, to
(15:06):
talk about the possibility of living side by side together
in coexistence. The main conversation has to be about education.
How to deradicalize a population that's been indoctrinated for generations
by a terrorist radical organization and Nazi isis organization. That's
(15:26):
the real conversation. Because if you want to talk about
a solution, about a process, you know, let's you know,
we can talk about many things. If we want to
talk about a future or Israelis and Palestinians can live
side by side. We have to talk about education on
how to really live side by side. And I think
(15:48):
that Ron Delmeerao's representative on this issue, and he's been
having discussions since the beginning of the war, and it's
been outside of the ear of the media, rightfully, yes,
because every time something comes up, someone's trying to obliterate it.
But I think that finally a few months ago, so
(16:11):
the Arab League sat down started to have a conversation
about the day after where they refused before, which is
a good step.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
So if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is
you think at least that the solution for the day
after should be our Abrahamic partners somehow like.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
An international form that's going to govern the civilian life
until you know, maybe I don't know if it can
happen this generation, but maybe the next generation is going
to be a leader that will want to live beside
the Jews.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
So parts of your of the government is speaking otherwise
we have, you know, parts of what's my you did
it and parts of the Likud who are talking about
full Israeli control over God. So what are you is
what you're saying that that's not Israel's policy.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
As you know, it's not Israel's policy.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Those voices are quite loud in that.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
There's also extreme voices on the other side like Goolan
and the other radical idea like a Woodbrak and all
who's been speaking about very radical ideas on the left.
And you know what, what's beautiful about Israel. Everybody are
allowed entitle to their opinion and they can talk about it. Yeah,
(17:24):
but they're pushing towards it, right. You see what they're
doing in the media, how they're damaging Israel's reputation, lying
full out line that's happen about what's been happening here
because the political agenda. So they might not be politician,
but the title of former prime ministers is giving them
(17:44):
the authentity of trying as a political move to try
and not just line the story about the reality of
what's happening here, but to try and push to a radical,
impossible solution. So we can talk about it, we can
discuss it, but at the end of the day, the
(18:05):
ideas are coming to the cabinet, it's being voted there
and I think it's very clear what's been happening and
that's why Ron Derman is the one to lead, got
it the issue of the day after.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
So let's shift. We talk a lot about guys and
now a little bit more than we spoke about it
at length, which is great. You're the Deputy Foreign Minister,
So I want to shift a little bit to foreign policy.
Israel's international standing. Could you just, in a brief few sentences,
tell me give us a briefing about the status of
Israel's international standing at the moment in institutions such as
the UN with our partners and allies.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Okay, So I think that you need to see it
through a few glasses. One of them is that our
enemies are using the international forums to try and tie
israel hands in order to surrender to our enemies. And
they've been using it, not just now, but throughout many years.
I think since the foundation of it. They've been using them.
(19:01):
But it's very very present during this war, and how
they've abused international forms and organizations in order not just
to blacken Israel's reputation, but to destroy Israel. If we
cannot defend ourselves, how are we capable of surviving in
(19:24):
such a hostile environment? Think about it, which country had
to face six different fronts, six different entities that have
been fighting the country unprovoked. It's insane. And because we've
shown strength and we are able to push them out,
they've been trying to use the international forms the media,
(19:45):
spreading lies, propaganda, blood libels. But we know, you know,
Al Jazeera is the mouthpiece of the Muslim brotherhood. It
has a massive effect on the public opinion as well.
But you know here in is we see a lot
of the negative side of it, and there is there's
a lot of pressure. Countries like Spain, Norway, Ireland are
(20:09):
very active and very extreme in their point of view. Yeah,
supporting terrorist organization, in support of the IRGC, in support
of Hamas. These are terrorist organizations and we've been fighting
it with some of our allies and friends. You could
hear the leader, the Councelor of Germany at the G
(20:31):
seven meetings saying, Israel's doing the dirty work of the world,
and rightfully, we do. The only reason why hopefully, you know,
we don't know exactly how it's going to turn yet,
but in five years or ten years from now, they
won't be German or Italian, or British or American soldiers
on Iranian soil fighting a country with nuclear weapon, with
(20:55):
mass destruction weapon is because of what Israel did. Right now,
there's an opportunity, a window, and that leadership understand and appreciate.
We have many allies, but obviously with a biased in
many country media, those anti voices are getting a far
(21:16):
greater stage to echo their messages than others.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Has there been any harm media side in terms of
actual you know, like things that can actually damage or
sanctions or stuff like that. Has there been anything on
the UN stage that U stage or something like that
that's hurt us look especially? Or is the situation in
control and.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Loc It's a battle that we are constantly fighting. I
just returned from Rome. Guidon was in Austria with the
German councilor and the Austrian the foreign ministers together. He's
going on different missions. We are all around Europe trying
to tighten the bonds and the bridges. It's not something
and can take for granted. This is work that we're
(22:01):
actually doing to strengthen those friendship and to make sure
that our allies stay with us. Because there's always that
pressure from other leadership to push it out. It's interesting
you need to understand this is not just about Israel.
It's far greater than that. What do you mean, Look
on the rise of anti Semitism. The war is just
(22:22):
an excuse. There's a wave of hatred going through Europe.
It's being inflamed by a lot of immigration, Muslim immigration
from the Middle East, with many countries who in their
education system the curriculum is anti Semitic, is racist, some
(22:42):
of it is even Nazi. Then they're going into their
new home and instead of assimilating, they are pushing their beliefs,
their culture and their radical racist ideas about Jews in
their new country. And you see, you know, almost two
(23:03):
hundred seats, for example, in England are being dictated in
just a few votes by radical Islamist communities, very pro
Palestinian communities in parliament. Yeah, and that has a major
effect on what those representatives are going to say, what
(23:28):
they need to do in order to preserve their seats.
I'm a politician as well. I can understand that. I
think it's wrong. I think you should do first what's
right for your country, for your people, to stand beside
what's moral. But you can understand some of these politicians
who are looking after their seats and what they need
(23:51):
to voice out to please the crowd, and that plays
a major role in what you see in some European
countries as well. That created also a wave, massive wave
of anti Semitism where you know, the lack of enforcement,
it's being normalized, the lack of persecution, persecution, prosecution, prosecution,
(24:18):
you know, and then there's no deterrence, and then you
see an interesting cycle where the far left, the socialists,
the pro Palestinians, the radical Islamist or joining forces and
sometime marching together with neo Nazis on the far right
against the Jews. So the war in many cases it's
(24:39):
just an excuse. You know, the rapper that was singing
in Glastonbury a few weeks ago stating all these racist
death chants to Jews. Before that, he was chanting to
murder police in England. He hates the UK more than
(25:00):
he hates Israel. This is sort of a fashion and
anti Western democracy fashion, and it's been flooding Europe, America, Canada,
and that is very, very dangerous. You know. I wrote
an article a few weeks ago to the French newspaper
(25:22):
and I said, you know what, the Jews will always
be safe. My grandma who was attacked in Paris with
fists and kicks, eighty eight year old grandmother. I said,
there's no room for Jews in France anymore. Come home,
come to Israel. But I'm not worried about the Jews.
They will always have a shelter. What are the French
(25:43):
going to do?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Interesting say something about the French Saudi summit that we
know is coming up.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
I think, you know, it's just another attempt to gain
public international stage doesn't have a meaning. There's many countries
who declared the Palatines. They need to change reality. No,
there are more than I think. It was ninety eight
parliament member in Israel who voted against the declaration of
(26:12):
a Palestinian state. This is Israeli public after the worst
massacre of Jews and the Holocaust, and Macron is wanting
to reward the terrorist organization Hamas with a state after
the crimes against humanity they committed. Their independence day is
going to be celebrated on the seventh of October.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
It's absurd from from a foreign policy standpoint. These are
you know, these aren't just two minor countries. This is
France and Saudi Arabia. There, our allies, our partners. This
is weel worried about. You know the implications of this.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Look, I'm not worried because it doesn't have any meaning,
any effective meaning.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Than it's more declaratory than.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
I'll tell you what I'm worried about. Every declaration like
that gives Hamas a breadth of air. So when Hamas
is listening constantly to international media, to Israeli media, to
international events that are unfolding, every declaration like that, every
(27:15):
actions against Israel takes us further from AC's fire because
they think, oh, here it comes. Let's wait another month,
let's wait another week. Let's continue to say no because
here France comes and they're going to give us a
gift a state. So we just need to hold on
(27:35):
a little bit further so that we can be rewarded.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
So we designated our goals as taking out the nuclear
threat and the ballistic threat. There's been different reports as
to have we from have we obliterated the threat to
push it off to a few years now. There were
a few weeks after the end of the of the
of the operation. How successful were it and what do
(28:00):
you think the long term implication is there?
Speaker 3 (28:02):
So for all, I think it was very successful. You know,
you were talking about some of the isolation and what's
happening in the international community. The Middle East is looking
very closely on what Israel is doing, whether it's capable
of defending itself. We got many points. We could hear
(28:22):
the singing and the celebrations all around the Middle East
after we were able to obliterate Iran's military nuclear program.
It's not just a threat on Israel. The first threat
is the Middle East. They are the biggest cause of instability,
biggest funders of terrors.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
But is the nuclear threat over or so?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
First of all, this operation was brilliant, very professionally, and
that showed Israel's strength and it created it opened doors
that hopefully within a few months the public will know
much more about it as well.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
You're talking about diplomatic.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Or absolutely because in the Middle East, you understand strength
and people want to be close to you after they
understand also your capability. The other thing about the nuclear
program that you've asked, look our intelligence assessment and the
picture that was built. The assessment is that we were
(29:27):
able to push it back between two to three years.
Now there's two options. We're in an intersection. That's what
I said in the beginning, that we have opportunities now,
and this intersection means that Iran needs to make a decision.
Is it going to go into a diplomatic channel, not
(29:48):
like before it's lying and deceiving the international community and
build a nuclear military program and weapon behind its back,
but real diplomatic channels. They can import enriched uranium if
they want for civilian use or anything like that, but
not enrich on their land period. And if it wants,
(30:11):
then it means the Middle East is going to be
safer for generations to come. And the other one if
they want to continue the way that it was until now,
and we will have to make sure that they will
not reach not the enriched uranium and not the facilities
and not nuclear new nuclear military program.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Has there been any indication, it's a very early stage.
But to which of those two paths Eran seems to
be heading on or is too early to tell because
we've heard some so our.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Logic, you know, I would say a Western democracy, a
nation that believes in freedom and fight for freedom. Our
logic is not the IRGC logic. And I specifically say
that because the logic the Persian people is our logic,
(31:04):
but it's not their regime. This is a terrorist organization
whose goal is world Islamic dominancy sharia, a caliphate ruled
by Iran. And when your highest cause is murdered them
is death. How do you do diplomacy with that? So
(31:28):
it's difficult, and that's why intelligence and keeping your eyes
open and reality are so important. I was asked by
some reporters. They didn't have a nuclear military program. They
only had this and that they reached until sixty percent.
They had an enrichment facility, conversion facility, ballistic missile program
(31:50):
that da da da, But they don't put the dots together.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Oh really, it looks like a duck.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
So if you are a naive, you're not going to
survive in the Middle East. I'm sorry, and that somewhat
European naivity or Western democracy naivity, as if they think
the same way. Sorry, it doesn't work, And we'll have
to keep our eyes open and our intelligence flowing and
our military strength at its head at the top of
(32:21):
the age and the quality today we understand how important
is the quality of the weapons, of the technology, of
your capabilities. And Israel will have to continue and lead
that together with the Americans.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
You mentioned the opening doors. Were you referring to an
expansion of the abraham courts?
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
And can you say something about that? No, give me something.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Look, it seems like there's a few countries who would
want to go into the Abraham of courts. They're going
to enter on the right time. I think that President
Trump has unimaginable things. I think also Prime Minister Nataniell
striving towards those achievements to secure the Middle East, to
create stability and bridges is incredible. If you look back
(33:15):
a few years back, you won't imagine that's a possibility.
But as a strong leader, real leaders of the free world.
That's what it means to be a leader of the
free world, that you are strong and determine enough and
(33:36):
can be tough in order to defend freedom. And you know,
and and and I think they deserve the credit for that.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
What's going on between is round Syria.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Look, we keep our eyes open. We are very concerned.
I saw that yesterday to Key led another attack on
the Kurdish people.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Uh Israel has been supportive.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Of It's not just Israel, the Western civilization owe the
Kurdish people a debt. They fought and destroyed Isis a
serious threat for humanity. They paid a serious price and
we owe them a debt. And the regime in Syria
is going to be judged by its actions towards the
(34:31):
minority in Syria, whether it's the Kurdish, Alawi, Christian, drus
and many others.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
And what have you learned in the time since they've
taken out.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
We have to keep our eyes open, but Israel.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Is talking to the Syrian Nusian region, which is itself.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
First of all, there wasn't any reports of Israel's meeting
officials and it hasn't been happening on a fit in
like channels and things like that. We are very concerns
about the minorities. You understand our relationship also with the
Jruis community. If the needs of humanitarian aid that will
(35:15):
be provided to them and Israel did provided and the
safety of them, we're greatly concerned for that. But there's
a lot of trust that needs to be built because
don't forget this leader was the leader of al Qaida,
(35:36):
it was a leader in Isis. This is a terrorist
mind and whether it can be reformed I don't know.
Many research here in Israel shows they can't. So it's
going to be a serious.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Question Saudi Arabia, how close are we to break through?
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Look, obviously it's being discussed throughout any years, including now.
I think that the leadership needs to make a decision, and.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I think leadership here in Saudi Arabia.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
In Saudi Arabia, I heard even a statement talking how
they shouldn't sacrifice the future of the Saudi people because
of the Palestinian cause and how the Palestinian leadership have
destroyed so many opportunities. I mean, the offer for Palestinian
(36:33):
state was there on the table for years, multiple times
they refused. They didn't want it. Why because the bigger
goal was not a Palestinian state. It was to obliterate
the state of Israel, killing all the Jews in Israel
and out. It's a religious cause, it's not a territorial
aspiration in a sense of a state, but for the
(36:58):
entire and I think that the Saudi needs to make
that choice as well, like Egypt did, like Jordan did,
like the Amiratis Bahraini.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Saudi Saudi Arabia seems to be saying that they seem
to have made the choice, which is that they will
not normalize with Israel until there's a clear path to
palicity in the statehood. So are you saying that, I think.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
I think, first of all, they need to make that choice.
But as you heard, these are reports as well, and
many statements like that we've heard before. We heard it
from the Egyptians. Do we have a peace agreement? We
heard it from the Jordanians. Do we have a peace
agreement with them?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
So some pieces possible in Saudi Arabia, even if we
don't necessarily accept.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
I believe so.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Sharon Ascal, thank you very much. That was fascinating.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
The pleasure was all mine. Thank you, Thank you great much,
Thank you so much. This episode was hosted by ELIAV.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Breyer and was produced by Kashat News and addis heard
by Super Jacobs and Azra Taylor. This episode was recorded
in the j Post Studios in Jerusalem.
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