037: Tombstone History Part 1 - Uncovering the Truth Behind the Gunfight at the O.K. Corral and More

In this week’s episode of Just Foolin About with Michael Biehn, we dive into the captivating history of Tombstone, Arizona, as we explore the legendary gunfight at the O.K. Corral, and the complex lives of key figures like Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, and the Clanton and McLaury families. We delve into lesser-known details such as Wyatt Earp's controversial reputation, his ambitions for the sheriff position, and the political tensions that fueled the infamous conflict. The discussion also touches on the vendetta ride post-gunfight and the subsequent legal inquiries, providing a nuanced perspective on this iconic episode of the Old West.

YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4dHNzumLLaFOIRqm4kcaAA
INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/justfoolinabout/

CHAPTERS: 
00:00 Introduction
02:30 Current and Former Iranian Conflicts
19:21 Tombstone Movie and Wyatt Earp Discussion
40:09 The McClary Brothers and Their Reputation
45:24 Wyatt Earp's Ambitions in Tombstone
50:28 The Gunfight at the O.K. Corral
57:30 The Aftermath and Political Tensions
01:03:34 The Vendetta Ride and Hollywood Portrayals
01:06:00 Michael’s Search for Ike Clanton's Grave
01:17:44 Podcast Format Changes and Future Plans

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
I have declared or against my brain in order to see.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
That once don't seem to so long.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
So long as I know they will be on time
the start.

Speaker 4 (00:17):
The days, I don't.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Have to Are you in the orange chair today in
the yeah? The uh, the the orange chair that you
know when when we first when yeah, uh, actually Kathy
Baker one just dropped today. I even have a chance
to like listen to it. I like to listen to him.

(00:39):
But before I met Kathy, I you know, I didn't
know or I didn't know like anything about about her.
And so we met her, uh right out in front
of where we do the podcast, and she came in.

Speaker 4 (00:56):
She looked at the chairs and she's like, those are orange. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
I looked at each other and like, uh, yeah, yeah,
they're orange. There was a moment I kind of thought
everything was gonna go downhill from there because her our
chairs were orange.

Speaker 5 (01:25):
But well, she had like watched a couple of the
interviews after we had gotten that you're sitting in a
red one. We just got the other ones are orange
and they're very uncomfortable, And I think she had watched
and been like, oh, she had seen those orange the
uncomfortable ones. And like worn outfit so it wouldn't like
clash with and we were like, no, no, no, we got

(01:46):
better chairs.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
We got better chairs.

Speaker 4 (01:48):
You're right about the outfit.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
You're right.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
She did say something about the outfit. That's something that
I never really think about. Yeah, really, these are my outfit.

Speaker 5 (02:00):
What's funny because when I put like the thumbnails together
for the YouTube video, it's you and a black T shirt.
Every time I could just pick from whatever interview I wanted,
it doesn't even matter.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, well it's this is pretty much the way that
I dress normally. I've always uh uh uh dressed. Uh,
that's Adam Wingarden. I kind of have that in common.
We always ress you.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
You can throw muskin there too. Yeah, you see him
running around a black T shirt.

Speaker 4 (02:27):
Well, I don't know if.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
I want to be thrown basket. Uh, but listen, jim I.
I had a quick question for you, because you're the
person you know that that really knows everything and really
well you know I. I just wanted to get your
your take on what's the best and easiest and fastest

(02:54):
way to move a centrifuge. How do you do that?
You put that in your backpack or they have some
trucks lined and you gotta put it in the back
of the Disconnect them. How heavy are they?

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Back seat? Stack them up in the back seat. Just
put them on a roof wrack, you know, put them
on your roof wrack on your car. I don't even know.
I saw a picture once of some of these things.
They had thousands of them.

Speaker 4 (03:28):
Who had thousands of them?

Speaker 1 (03:29):
The Iranian I know, you don't just pack them up and.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
You don't you think, well, they won't be.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
That easy to disguise, you know, well, how big are they?

Speaker 4 (03:41):
If you have any idea?

Speaker 2 (03:42):
I mean, like there there were some reports of like, oh,
there's a bunch of trucks, which seemed like a little
late for the Iranians to have gone, like, you know what,
maybe we should get these centrifuges.

Speaker 4 (03:56):
Out of here.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Thod our way, maybe trying to move some of that stuff.
Huh do you think I saw a picture once of
a room of these things, and they they look like
kind of long, tall, vertical cylinders more than a foot
or two across, you know, I mean, I have a
vague picture of what a centrifuge looks like from the

(04:21):
old you know, astronaut training films when they would put
these guys in the centrifugion, spinning them around for a
little bit to see how they could handle you know,
space travel. Yeah, yeah, exactly, anything anything that spins real fast.
It's I swear, I swear that's how they separate the

(04:43):
heavier I mean physics here, which which my knowledge is
like a mile widening inch deep. But but it's basically
how they get the the the particles of the uranium
atom that are the most usable for nuclear devices to

(05:04):
separate from the rest of the parts of the uranium Adam.
I mean, that's how they're enriching it with those centrifuges
that pull the heavier parts of the element.

Speaker 5 (05:14):
I mean, I just did a quick Google search, and
this is just an AI answer to a very basic question.
But it says the Iranian centrifuge just specifically the ir
one model or cylindrical in shape, and are typically around
five feet long, so I guess they're not that big.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah, it seemed like they'd be pretty easy to move around.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
You could a milk truck full of.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
Well. I I spoke to you yesterday, Jim, and it
was just about the time that the Iranians were retaliating
for their centrifugus being all smashed. You know, you know,
I don't, you know, stay away from really politics in

(06:05):
this show, but just to talk about like you know,
when our president comes out and says, you know, that
statement sounded like a lot of statements I've heard.

Speaker 4 (06:18):
This is the greatest.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
This was like the biggest, mostaated.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
Like nothing we have ever seen before. Big LEI abliterating,
Big Lee.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, I uh, I you know, I just I what.
Let me ask you this, Jim, because why is it
because of their proximity? Uh uh?

Speaker 4 (06:50):
That? Why is uh to the proximity to Israel?

Speaker 1 (06:55):
That?

Speaker 2 (06:56):
Why is Iran? First of all, how many kinds trees
have nuclear? As as as Lynda Hamberton. I just said
this before, Linda Hamilton nuclear nuclear. I used to say nuclear, No, Michael, no, Michael,
neucular not nuclear, all right.

Speaker 4 (07:15):
Linda, Like.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
Just you know, I don't know off hand there are
I think it's like under ten.

Speaker 5 (07:25):
There's nine countries with nuclear weapons Russia, United States, China, France, UK, Pakistan, India, Israel,
and North Korea.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, those are the ones I was gonna Benna.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
Name why is it?

Speaker 1 (07:41):
I think Brazil? You know, could make one if they
wanted to. They have enough of stuff, but they haven't
really shown that interest yet. South Africa supposed we have
a pretty active development program going, but they stopped short
of actually you know, making weapons grade urine meum. So
there are some countries that were kind of on the

(08:03):
bird or could could do it if they chose, but
have chosen not to for probably incentives not to. So
you know, I knew they were under ten what.

Speaker 4 (08:15):
Yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
What would you think would be like you know, like
so the Iranians have been trying to do this for
thirty years, according to bebe uh and.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
That's a pretty important qualifier there, you know, according to
bebe nicky might stretch the truth.

Speaker 4 (08:40):
Well, we just it was I think it was.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
It was they probably have, They probably have in summer.
So you know, what's kind of ironic about this in
the sense is that you and I were roommates years
ago when when the Iranians grabbed those American hostages remember
the revolution and of course the revolution of course when
the Iotola came to power and they grabbed those hostages

(09:04):
for a year and it you know, and they and
and Carter tried to stage that raid that went disasterrously
wrong in the middle of the desert.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
It was poor Jimmy, you know nothing.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
I couldn't catch a break.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
You know, interest race for like double eighteen.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
Unemployment was fifteen percent. It was it was a bitch.
And then he told us to put on sweaters and
not have them away. That didn't help too much.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
And then Reagan came in and they released them that day.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
I remember I was, I was in them. I was
in in Brentwood or on my way home from work,
I think around six thirty or so, and I was
going to go vote and when the reaction was overall
ready we already called. But you know, I mean I
think I dived to nineteen eighty.

Speaker 4 (09:58):
That was nineteen eighty.

Speaker 5 (09:59):
Yeah, that was like Argo. That's what Argo was based on, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, ardro set during that crisis that the Canadians actually
did help us get get six Americans out. Yeah, that
was a real operation.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Familiar with that movie as I probably should be.

Speaker 5 (10:20):
Like that was like Ben Affleck, who was definitely very famous,
but I think right before that, he right before that,
he did the Town. Yeah Town, It's a fucking awesomest Yeah,
and then followed up with that one, and then I
think that's when everyone went like, all right, Ben affleck, yeah,
you're good.

Speaker 6 (10:35):
All right.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah. I like Air. I liked Air the movie with
Matt Damon. You know, I thought that was a very
good job. So for sure.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
Uh, I was uh trying to think, what were we
talking about right before? Well, I just wanted yeah, yeah,
but I just wanted to mention that during in nineteen eighty,

(11:08):
I was living in the House of man I as
you were probably there too, Jim and maybe yeah. Yeah,
I remember watching television and that election being called, and
you know, an hour later, we had somebody knocking on
the door and there were two people, uh telling me

(11:31):
to get out and vote for whoever Reagan was running against,
you know that we need that, we needed every vote.
And I said, well, come on in and take a
look at the television here. I think you might want
to and then you can stop knocking on doors. At
this point, it was like noon or something.

Speaker 4 (11:52):
Wasn't it.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah, it was it was. I remember I was going
to go vote. It was around six thirty or so
and I was going to go vote, leaving work and
I was still registered over in Brentwood from when we
lived over there, so I was going to drive over
to my polling place and the election was already called,
so I said, I'll screw this. I went over to
my girlfriend's house and watched the end of the returns.

(12:14):
I knew that was one election I didn't vote in.

Speaker 4 (12:18):
Did you know.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
It will be the hottest day and over a decade
in parts of the East Coast?

Speaker 4 (12:30):
Have you heard of thishold?

Speaker 1 (12:31):
I've heard about a real heat bubble over the East Coast.
It seems to be actually killing people.

Speaker 4 (12:39):
Yeah, well, I guess if you don't. Yeah, I don't think.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
You know, in a lot of places they don't have
air conditioners because they're not used to they're not expected to.
The temperatures are not expected to get up to one
hundred and fifteen or one hundred and twenty. So yeah,
I'm sure people are dying.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
I have been reading about that.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, so do you think the.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
What?

Speaker 4 (13:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (13:17):
You know what we were talking about Iran? Yeah, you know,
a day or two ago, and you thought that maybe
our strike would would accelerate things. And then shortly after
we spoke, Trump announced a ceasefire. Yeah, and now I've
read this morning that they're they're both sides are sort

(13:38):
of violating that ceasefire. So I couldn't tell you what
the you know, what the exact status of things is
at this point. I was very much reminded of that.
That Tom Hanks movie was Philip Seymour Hoffman called Charlie
Wilson's War. Did you ever see that?

Speaker 4 (13:53):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (13:53):
And throughout that movie, remember how Philip Seymour Hoffman, whenever
somebody will asked a question, he always seems to say,
will see, we'll see. And I think it's in this situation,
I'm so reminded of that, you know what's gonna happen,
We'll see. I don't know. This is one of those
whether one of those situations without expression events are in

(14:14):
the saddle and ride mankind comes to mind.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Well, and also it's it's it's I know that this
is situation is is it's no different than the other situation.

Speaker 4 (14:29):
But it's.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
It's interesting that like we come to terms, I guess,
Israel Iran okay, in six more hours we're not gonna
bomb each other, you know, or at eight more hours,
eight hours from now, we're going to stop bombing each other.
And then during those eight hours, man, they just each

(14:55):
side just throws every fucking everything.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
They have right up to the last second.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
And even a few minutes, you know, five or ten
minutes over overboard.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
I think your own got lost on the way over
to your town, and that's why he's coming in a
little late, you know. That's yeah. No, I just haven't
been able to follow up on what kind of violations
are happening.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
I don't think as of I don't think of the
moment there there are a lot of violations. But at
the same time too, I don't, you know, there's so
much I've realized that like I don't know, like, like
I said, a centrifuge, what like, if they're six feet

(15:40):
tall and they're cylinder, why would they be in those sites
that they knew that they were gonna get Why would
they have them there? Well, I mean I would think
that they would have you know, one in this person
scarage and two in this person scarage.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
From what I understand, nobody really knows where any of
this missionable material is, right, you know, where any of
the supposedly I heard a figure yesterday of somewhere in
the neighborhood of eight hundred pounds of uranium that they
have enriched to sixty percent. Again, these figures don't really
mean a whole lot to me, because but they had

(16:18):
enriched it from four or five percent up to sixty percent,
which was a from what I understand, the significant increase.
But they had somewhere in the neighborhood of eight hundred
pounds of sixty percent enriched uranium, which from what I understand,
is plenty to you know, build some BT.

Speaker 4 (16:37):
I just want I just wanted to ask you that.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
I go back and watch Oppenheimer again. Chick the whole together,
the wholemember, how they build out of bod the.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Whole idea of Iran will never get the bomb. Iran
will never get the bomb through you know Bush like
I mean, through Reagan, like all the way for every president.
Iran will never get the bomb. Iran will never get
the bomb. How come Jim Moranda's get the bomb and
Pakistan can have one or well.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
I mean Israel has had one, forget wise one.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
And that's another thing I'm wondering, like when you like
the North Korean guys, you know, I you know.

Speaker 4 (17:24):
What you know, like how many does Pakistan have? How many?

Speaker 2 (17:28):
Is that all that stuff just available online?

Speaker 1 (17:31):
Pakistan the Pakistani's basically bought THEIRS from the North Koreans.
From what I understand, they bought the they bought the technology.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Thirty years ago, right, yeah, well not quite.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
Thirty years ago. But the Indians developed one, I think
back in the sixties or seventies, and around the time
the Chinese did, and they built one to kind of
counter the Chinese and the Pakistan He said, well, we
can't see the Indians have a bomb and we don't
have one. So they embarked on the program and they

(18:05):
basically imported THEIRS from North Korea.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
So is it is the is the International low and
hours like nobody else gets them?

Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah, it's called the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
That's the thing that that a ranch just basically said, okay, well.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
We're never signed on to from one point then, but
it was. It was a major treaty negotiated some decades
ago to try to keep other countries from developing nuclear weapons.
So they wanted to keep it at just those countries.

Speaker 5 (18:36):
I just did it, but Google search to see how
many nukes they had, and it says Pakistan is estimated
to possess around one hundred and seventy nuclear warheads. But
right under that it says Pakistan is not a signatory
to the Treaty on the Non Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons,
So I guess they didn't sign Is.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
There anybody is part of that program?

Speaker 1 (18:56):
Well, yeah we are because we got.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
Like I love it when they talk to the Israeli
any commentator, any Israeli person who's in the army, anybody
who's ever lived in Israel, when they say, well, you're
nuclear nuclear your nuclear weapons?

Speaker 4 (19:16):
What what? We don't have any I.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
Can neither confirm nor deny. Of course they do. Of
course they did have. Since Hi, I'm Dylan, and I'm
Bat and I'm Ruby, and we host a podcast called
bad TV. What do we talk about?

Speaker 2 (19:34):
On bad TV? We talked about shows, all your favorite
reality TV shows.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
We recap below Deck, the end of Pump Rules, Love
is Blind.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
What else do we cover?

Speaker 6 (19:42):
Pat We just finished The Golden Bachelor. That was fun.
But occasionally we go back and recap shows that could
never be made today, like Flavor of Love season two.
Not sure if anybody remembers, but in the first episode
something on the floor, and that's a fact, A girl
a woman named something on the floor. So if you're
looking for a podcast that mocks all the insanity that

(20:03):
is your favorite reality TV shows, then subscribe to bad
TV on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or anywhere you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Bye.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
Since I think sometime in the sixth.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Hey, Jim, I think we're kind of getting somewhere. There
was a site that, of course came on my phone
because my phone knows what I want.

Speaker 4 (20:30):
To look at.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
And it was basically a I don't know, twelve or
fifteen minute ten things that you didn't know about Tombstone
the movie Tombstone. Ten things or twelve things that you
didn't know about the movie of Tombstone, and.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
How many of them didn't you know?

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Well, it was complete hogwash, all of these, like, you know,
like I'd never seen any like. It was like, what
what are they talking about? They're talking about what a
pussy Bill Paxson's character was, they were talking about how
powers you know it was.

Speaker 4 (21:14):
They just had it all wrong.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
I mean they basically had Kurt saying cut, you know,
let's do another one, like the entire time, but somehow
the crew didn't. So but I think that we're getting
through a little bit. Maybe it's maybe it's not.

Speaker 4 (21:29):
Me and you.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
But now that I know that you can go to
these sites and actually make remarks. After watching about half
of this the other and what they were saying about
Bill's character, I was like, there's such bullshit. I've got
a let me let me see that. Oh there's comments
here too, just like on the podcast. Oh, you can

(21:50):
make comments. So I made some comment like your fucking.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
You started at eleven and you didn't came down the.

Speaker 4 (22:02):
Uh yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
And and then I thought, well, what else is everybody
else saying? And I realized, Jim, that ninety percent of
the comments were like, yeah, fearfull of ship. Yeah, you
don't know anything about this, like you know, like, so yeah,
whyatter wasn't such a fucking great guy? Uh? But you know,

(22:24):
and uh.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
I think that popped up on my phone. I did
when I was screwing around on YouTube, and I said,
I think I read one or two and said this
is worse than you're and and you know, went on
to what I was in originally intending to look up
on YouTube. So yeah, it popped up online.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
But uh what, Jim, But you know, I wanted to.

Speaker 4 (22:52):
Ask you about.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
You know, a lot of the books that we've read
and and kind of studies or whatever read and were
written after the movie Tombstone came out.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Absolutely absolutely, I wound up. I wound up collecting somewhere
close to fifteen or eighteen books about Tombstone a few
years ago, you know, and you and I were doing
so much talk and research, et cetera about it, And
almost all of them are written in the aftermath of
the movie, and especially the ones that take more critical

(23:38):
balanced look at whyat or the life of Wyatt. All
of them were written after the movie, which makes Kevin's
movie even and script even that much more remarkable because
he didn't have very much research to draw on. There
were only a couple of books that were available.

Speaker 4 (23:56):
To him at that time.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
At that time the time that he and his and
you know, he was you know, how how he was
striving for, you know, historical authenticity, yes, and and and
his script is like far the most authentic rendering of
the Tombstone story that anybody's ever attempted, and movies or television,
and that they've attempted hundreds of them, and his was

(24:22):
the most accurate. And he didn't really have that much
to go on, but but he got from one of
the books written in the nineteen twenties. He got the
great dialogue, the great the great idioms that he was using,
like I'm your huckleberry and you're a daisy if you
do and and go ahead, you know, pull that smoke wagon.
He got all the all that kind of day.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Don't don't for don't forget all right longer no longer too,
don't forget my life. So fucking tired of people just
fooling about. Yeah, I'm so fucking tired of people walking
up to me saying I'll be a huckleberry.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
Well, that's why your story about going to do going
down to Do Mandalorian and looking for your parking place
and seeing all these parking places marked huckleberry is so funny,
because I'm sure you had to think it was somebody
being funny with you, you know, somebody joking on you,
pranking on you.

Speaker 4 (25:20):
I wanted to.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Ask you, Jim, because Stephen Lane was so effing good
as Ike Clanton. I've always taken a particular interest in
Ike Clanton and even the uh there's nobody that ever

(25:48):
describes Ike Clanton as anything other than exactly what Stephen
Lange played in the movies.

Speaker 4 (25:55):
Would that be correct from me all your research.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Entirely. And speaking of books about Tombstone, you know, we're
talking to the author of a new book about Tombstone
about coming on the podcast later in the year.

Speaker 4 (26:13):
His name is.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
Mark Gardner, and I've forgotten the title of the book.
We can look it up real fast, but it's it's
published by Penguin, major publisher, uh later this year, and
we are you and I are supposed to be receiving
galleys the book, right, you know, to talk about but
his his book takes a look at Wyatt and Doc

(26:35):
from the time they meet in Dodge City to when
they hook up again in Tombstone, and the divergent paths
they both took from Dodge to when they see each
other again in Tombstone. And from what I understand, it's not,
you know, the hagiography or lionization of Wyatt, but you know,

(26:57):
earlier books might have might have been earlier.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
Books, earlier television shows, every movie, every television show, every
book up until that point.

Speaker 1 (27:07):
Because I can I can even remember the lyrics to
the Wider theme song from Hugh O'Brien's old TV show Wider.
You know, I used to watch that as a kid.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
Well there's there's also you know, and I I remember
it clearly because I guess it had a catchy tune
or whatever. But Lauren, who's the guy from Bonanza? Lauren
Lauren laurn Green, Lauren Green. He lay face down in

(27:39):
the desert sand, clutching a six gun in his hand,
shot from behind. They thought he was dead. And there's
hardway a bounce of lead.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
Raino forgot about that that you mentioned.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
It was kind of a kind of a hit there
for a week or tough, tough the church type of
thing for it was.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
It was I remember that. Now, Holy crap.

Speaker 4 (28:08):
Laurne Green.

Speaker 5 (28:10):
By the way, that book is called Brothers of the
Gun White Orp Doc Holiday and a Reckoning in Tombstone,
and it's going to be out in November.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, well that'll be interesting. It'll be interesting to uh
basically see uh the take on White or because you know,
my take.

Speaker 4 (28:35):
Not while I was doing.

Speaker 2 (28:36):
The movie, because I didn't have very much information on
on Johnny Ringo. You know, I I I had a
little bit of information, but not not not much. And
you're right about Kevin, and I think Kevin uh went
to Tombstone and talked to some of the historians, and

(28:57):
and and uh uh wrote that script.

Speaker 4 (29:01):
But you know.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
What you have always called Jim the lionization of Wyatt
ear is so pathetically inaccurate, like all like I guess
because he lived longer, and then his horror wife, one

(29:27):
of his horror wives lived a little bit longer.

Speaker 1 (29:31):
It was. It was the one that Dana Delaney plays
in the Moo. I know and remember from the screen.
Joice he's a more significant character.

Speaker 4 (29:39):
Of course.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
She was Josie or as Wyatt would always call her,
horror name Sadie.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
Stage name stage has quotes around it, of course, for
her working name was with Sadie, and although her main
given name was Joe Marcus, but he called her Sadi
for the next five decades that they were together. For
the rest of the time they were right up run

(30:10):
until he died.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Was was he the only one allowed to call her Sadie?

Speaker 1 (30:14):
He was the only one who could call her Zaidi,
the only one because she insisted on being called Josie
after that. But he called her Sadi until he died,
and she lived. He died in twenty nine, nineteen twenty nine,
and she lived another twenty years after and She was
a fierce protector of his image and a fierce promoter
of the you know, wiat brave, fearless law man who

(30:38):
cleaned up the West image. And she she would bite
tooth and nail anybody who tried to paint a different picture,
because there were other voices at the time. She had
commissioned a guy named There was a guy named Stuart Little, Yeah,
writing a biography, and she jumped all over his case
until he, you know, kind of kind of pointed in
her spirit it towards the depiction of why that she

(31:01):
was she was looking for and she wanted and you
know why it was in Hollywood in his lady he
was he was pelling around or trying to kiss up
to people like you known for a young John Ford,
johnnickx uh right, you know. And Bat Masterson was kind
of a promoter too. Bat wrote an article Bat in

(31:23):
his late Bat I think is the most fascinating character
out of the Old West. He ended his life as
a newspaper man in New York, and once once he
became a newspaper man in New York, he wrote a
couple of stories about his his pal Wiater, So he
kind of was an early book his Palwiater.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
How many times is his poll witer married four or five?

Speaker 4 (31:47):
Jim? Do you know included?

Speaker 2 (31:48):
Well, I don't even.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Can call them marriage well like common law marriages, you know. Yeah,
I don't know that he and Sadie ever went through
a foremost ceremony first one.

Speaker 2 (31:59):
I just wanted to get the According to my memories
of our research, the first woman that he married, according
to our research, wasn't a whore.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
No, no, she was. I think she she was young.
She died I think really young.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
She did, Jim and I I read recently and it's
probably bullshit, but I read recently that there.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
Was some some some.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
Controversy about her death and that her family was not
real happy with Wyatt Earth. Do you know anything about that?
Have you heard ever anything about the original wife's death
and being either suspicious or not handled correctly, and and

(32:52):
and and her family not being happy with why her?

Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah? I mean I have a vague memory of it
now that you mention it. But what I've said, remember
was her family was not real happy with him. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Well, had he started any of the horrorhouses yet.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
Or he and his brother had been you know, working
on them for sure? Well?

Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, well, here's the thing. Here's the thing that that
is kind of even if you're the people that try
to give him a break, basically say, you know, he
he you know, he married this woman. She died tragically,
and that threw him into a place where he ended

(33:37):
up stealing horses and starting whororhouses.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
And right, oh, now, now you're giving away the plot
to the Kevin Costner movie, because that's that's yeah, because
that's that's how the Costner movie depicts Wyat. He was
leading this you know, great, hell wholesome life until his
wife died and in childbirth, and and then it just
threw him into despair and he became kind of.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
A lowlife for a while, for a while.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
Maybe the next sixty years.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
And we'll say, well when when at one what he
was known? Uh, Jim as that the Illinois Bummer?

Speaker 4 (34:21):
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (34:23):
The the Peoria Peoria, That's right, Peoria is in Illinois.
Is the capital of Illinois. No, no, what's the capital?
Come on, come on, come on, Springfield Spring He didn't
have time to look that up, and he can eat
nailed it, good, good, good good, So uh I know

(34:45):
that at you know, at.

Speaker 3 (34:50):
Remember in Peoria, they they they why did they call
him the Peoria bummer when he was living in Well,
because they put a brothel on a barge and they
were moving it up and down the river like a
kind of like a bum or a hobo, a transient
on the on the move, you know.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
So the word bummer, Uh what means like a bum?
Is that where that word would have meant back then?
That when they call him the purea bummer.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
I think it. I think it is the source of
it for that.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Yeah, he's a bum and he was was the only
uh involvement with whorehouses and him being a pimp uh
in Illinois. Uh, the the barges that they.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Here you go from uh story about Wider he was
in there talking about his time in Illinois. He was
in there do well. Actually they had bad things to
say about him in the local newspaper. They called him
a bummer, which is essentially another term for a vagrant.
And his brother Morgan were arrested multiple times in Peoria

(36:10):
for keeping and being found in the house of ill fame.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah, hanging around his whorehouses.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
During another arrest, they didn't I'm not.

Speaker 4 (36:19):
Gonna judge him on that, but go ahead.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
Eventually the brothers, after getting arrested all these times in Illinois,
eventually the Irt brothers returned to Missouri for their sister's
eleventh birthday party.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
Oh my goodness, Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
ARP went back to Peoria for a while, where he
was arrested on a keel boat believed to be operating
of the floating brothel on the Illinois River.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
And from that moment until he left Tombstone, he basically
was a pimp, right, I mean, from a very very
early age that.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
Was this, this article I'm reading from, says no One.
After paying his fines and following that arrest, ARP left
Peoria for good. But Lowberg, the author of the author
of a book about him, says, said he would continue
to get caught up in similar escapades throughout much of
his life. No one understands the whole image of Earp

(37:26):
is based on the nineteen fifties TV show Life and
Times of Wild, played by the very handsome Hugh O'Brian,
and the song says, brave, courageous and bold. Long may
his story be told? Not so much? Lolburn says so
and he he says yeah. Basically, through the rest of
his life he basically was he was. He really only

(37:46):
wore a badge for six years of the nearly eighty
that he was alive, from eighteen seventy six in Wichita
to eighteen eighty two in Tombstone. And that was it,
you know, for six years. And that's you know, more
or less where his legend, uh you know, is developed.
And for the rest of the time he was either.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
How much of that was in how much of that
was in Dodge.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
City only only about two years two.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Years in Dodge City and then the Wichita.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
The three places where he was you know, most prominently
located as a wearing any kind of a badge was
Wichita first, then Dodge and then uh and then two Stones.
And in each place he pretty much wore out his
welcome after about two years. Yeah, yeah, And and he

(38:38):
whatever he whatever he tried other than you know, being
a law man, never worked for him. Whatever other ventures
he tried, whether it was racing horses or trying to
start up an express company, uh nothing, No legitimate business
has ever worked for him. Never made me real money
at anything, like.

Speaker 4 (38:56):
I always have.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
I always have the kind of the gut feeling that
uh uh, you know that the earth the IRPs and Wyatt.
They just weren't that smart, you know, they just weren't
that smart.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
I mean, one of the one of the really good
writers of a recent book about the Tombstone about the Earth's,
a guy named Tom Claven uh called them ambitious and clannish.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Well, you know, but you know that that could be
said about a lot.

Speaker 7 (39:34):
Of of of of us.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
Actually, I mean not not not, I mean clan is
just basically means.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
Yeah, yeah, he was. He was making that reference really
in sneaking about them in terms of their relationship with
with the mccloughdy's and with with the Clantons. And you
start off by talking about Steve Lange's portrait of I
and did that comport with what I've read? And what
I've read is is that you know, he was a

(40:06):
member of that community. People uh, you know, dealt with
him regularly, and yeah, he could be a little bit
of a hothead. But but what seemed to have really
ignited him at the time of the events depicted in
the movie is that his father had just been killed
a few weeks or months earlier, right, And that seemed

(40:30):
to I mean, he was he was pretty much under
control until his father was killed Old newt uh uh
old Man uh Clinton, the one that the one that
Robert Minchin was supposed to play in the movie. And
then you know, in the last minute, he just wound up.
Mitchm just wound up during that narration.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
And harder to get that fucking bottle out of his hand,
wasn't it.

Speaker 8 (40:51):
I don't know about that, but you know, and then
they but they gave his dialogue to Powers, you know,
and that opening scenior Power says, I'm what you might
call the bound of the faith. That was initially supposed
to be Robert Mitchum's dialogue, as as old Man Clant.
But but you know, Powers wound up with that juicy
bit of dialogue.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
So so yeah, he's living. His father kind of unraveled
him a little bit. And uh but like I said,
he was a you know, member of the community, a rancher.
He was in town quite a bit. And you know,
people didn't didn't you know, run in fear a bike
when he came to town, right.

Speaker 4 (41:29):
You know, and uh, certainly not the McClary brothers.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
They know, they.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
Were they were pretty upstanding citizens. What was it what
was the remember the claim that Uh, I really like
to have that that quote, not that I need you
to get it, Jim, but somebody accused one of the
McClary brothers of either stealing a cow or rebranding cows
or whatever cattle and in the newspaper, and and he kind.

Speaker 1 (41:59):
Of went in, well, this is really funny that, you know,
the depiction of the of the of the Clanton's and
the McClory's is that they were like desperadoes, you know,
all bad guys. They were ranchers in the local community.
And somebody was rebranding stolen army mules on on Tom

(42:22):
McClory's property or Frank McClory's property, and uh, and the
IRPs showed up as part of a posse, and uh
basically they left and uh and nothing much happened. But
McClory was real upset that the earps were snooping around
on this property. So this this you know, desperado of

(42:44):
the wild West. How did he how did he get
his retribution? He wrote a letter to the editor of
the newspaper, and he laid out what his problems were
with these you know, uh, with these citizens, because basically
they were they were citizens they were really long men
at that point. They just were part of a posse
with these citizens showing up on his property snooping about,

(43:08):
and he was real upset about it. So he wrote
this kind of angry this of the Frank and Tom,
the two brothers, and and those guys were really industrious.
They were building a ranch. They they yeah, well, I
was going to say they'd built one ranch kind of
a little to the west of Tombstone, and they were
they were building a bigger one and a more with

(43:29):
more you know, infrastructure a little bit west of Tombstone
as well. So uh, and they were, you know, they
were were active businessmen. You know that the the the
degree of criminality of those two families, the Clantons and
the and the mccrary's. About the only thing the McCrory's

(43:52):
probably did was was let their property be used as
a way station for cattle being smuggled out of out
of Mexico, rustled and smuggled out of Mexico. But stealing
cattle from Mexico was not considered a bad thing necessarily
in those days, you know, And and and the Clintons

(44:15):
did the same. But they may also have helped with
people who were rustling cattle from American ranchers, which the
McClory's didn't do. So that that's kind of where where
the the you know, the degree of criminality of those
two families. You never see it saw, you know, the
McClory's or the Clintons on a wanted poster for stage

(44:37):
robbery or bank robbery or anything like that. Never anything
like that at all.

Speaker 4 (44:43):
So, uh, that was the Clintons.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
The Clintons. No, huh right, no, any any any you
know breaking the law had to do generally with rustling.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
Well we you know, Jim, we used to uh, when
we used to talk about this, we used to talk about.

Speaker 4 (45:02):
How much.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Material, how much material is really still left two to
be to be told? Uh, and and and and and
now that we know more, you know, Kevin's movie was

(45:25):
a good.

Speaker 4 (45:26):
Movie, and and and and it.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
Was more historically correct than than any other movie.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
That was done.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
Of Wyatt as being sort of you know, he seems
pretty heroic to me in that movie. I don't I
don't really see shadings of of you know, I guess
he's slapped around Billy Bob Thornton. No, but Billy Bob
Thornton was an asshole. I don't do you really see
any thing in that movie where you you look at

(46:03):
and you go, uh, this is a this is a
Wiet Earth that we're really not familiar with.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
No, but there's a huge kind of subplot to Whyatt's
time in Tombstone that the movie never really could could
get to. And that's how much he wanted that sheriff's job.
He wanted. He wanted the job a sheriff. Now in
the movie, he arrives in town and he's initially approached

(46:32):
because I just watched the opening of it again a
few days ago, because as you know, it's on all
the time, and and the mayor approaches him and and uh,
Wyatt says, oh no, no, I'm done with with waw.
I'm here to you know, just build I would need
to spend more time with my family. That's what that's

(46:56):
loving wife, Sadie, and we're gonna build a family. I
close the old family here until I meet that actress
Josie that has just come into town. But he says, no,
I'm done with being a lawman. That's not remotely true.
Now it is true, and why it left Dodge, He
said I'm done with being a law man. There's no
money in it. But when he got to Arizona and

(47:17):
found out that they were about to create a new
county called Cochise County down where Tombstone is located, and
a new county would need a sheriff, and that the
sheriff was also the tax collector and got to keep
ten percent of whatever he collected. And Tombstone had these

(47:37):
really rich silver mines and railroads in the county. Then,
you know, being able to collect taxes from railroads and
silver mines was really lucrative. In fact, the sheriff of
Cocheese County could could make upwards of what would be
today about a million bucks a year.

Speaker 4 (47:56):
That was Johnny Bean.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
That was Johnny Ban. Yeah. Now they hadn't really settled
on a sheriff yet. When when Wyatt heard about this,
and that's when he got real interested, and he thought
that he had worked out a deal with Johnny Behan
where Bhan would become the sheriff and Whyatt would become
the under sheriff and Behn would just do like the
tax the easy stuff, you know, the tax collect being

(48:21):
that kind of stuff, and why it would be the muscle.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
He'd be the strong, he'd be the one who would
who would hit the drunk guy in the back.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
He'd like a Russell Crowe character in l a confidential guy,
the Ed White, the guy who's just Bud White, the
guy who's just there for the muscle. He's that's that's
his talent. He's the muscle, right. And and Whyatt thought
he had that arrangement, well, you know, Being kind of
double crossed him because Being said that, I don't want
this fucking wider up on my case. He's got these

(48:50):
brothers who were always around. You know, he's he's only
looking out for himself. So when Being became sheriff, he
he ignored Wyatt completely and named somebody else as an
undershaff up. So then Bean brings this fiance to town,
Josie Marcus, and why it says, holy cow, I kind
of like her and she's given me the look, so

(49:10):
you know, he he not only wanted Bean's job, he
wanted his woman's woman too, and that led the effort
to get Bean's job led Wyat to think that he
needed maybe some grandiose gesture to get the city fathers
to back him to become sheriff the next time the

(49:32):
election rolled around, so he started to engage in some
schemes to do that. He was plotting to get credit,
to get attention, and part of one of his schemes
involved trying to find the guys who had robbed a
stage coach, and to do that, he tried to use
Ike Clinton as a confidential informant. And as you can imagine,

(49:54):
that went all that went to hell. I mean like, yeah,
where's the problem there? Well, I wasn't the most reliable
figure for that kind of a job. You know, being
a confidential informant didn't last too long. Plus the guys
they were looking for got themselves killed before they could
they could locate them before I can turn them in.
Even so, but it just that just led to a

(50:16):
whole fiasco. And then it may have led to the
argument that why that I can doc were having the
night before the gunfight, But so that was part of
the background and go ahead, and then in the months,
in a couple of months before the gunfight, Wyatt was

(50:39):
working very much with a couple of guys in town
who were trying to form a vigilante committee. Yes, and
they called it the Tombstone vigilance committee. They had some
sort of name for it. And in fact, at one
point in September, which was only a month before the
gun fight, Frank walked up to one of the Herbs
and said, I hear you boys, you're up a vigilance

(51:00):
committee to hang us. So the McClory's were already very
wary of Earth and what he thought would be maybe
some vigilante action, some outside the law, you know action.
So they were very wary of the IRBs. They thought
the Herbs were trying to intrude on their territory, you know.
So that's some of the backdrop to when the gunfight

(51:24):
actually occurred. You notice, in the gunfight, the people who
got killed. The gunfight didn't involve Wyat and Doc and
the Ert brothers squaring off against Curly Bill Barocious and
Johnny Ringo, you know, the bad guys and the crew. Now,
they went after the ranchers, the local ranchers. Yeah, you know,

(51:46):
as you know, as we've talked about, the McClory's were
on their way out of town to go to their
sister's wedding in Iowa, and they had just collected their
proceeds from cattle sales, legitimate cattle sales they had made.
They had close to three thousand bucks on them when
they when they walk through that vacant lot, you know,
on the way out of town, you know that day.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
Uh you know, I guess I Clinton, you know, i'd
been drinking through the night, and yes, I'll kill the herbs,
fuck the Oh yeah, I'm going to kill well, kill
him if I see him, give me a gun.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
You know what, if they want to fight, they'll get
a fight.

Speaker 4 (52:23):
We'll get a fight, So they gotta fight.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
Yeah, So they throw him in jail, and like he
gets bailed out like fucking an hour later or whatever.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
But they give my twenty five dollars fine, and nobody.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
Ever really kind of mentions that. That I always find
interesting is I think it's the younger McClary brother goes
into town to either you know, like get ike out,
or he's.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
Going into town to collect the money to go to
the butchers that they've been selling beef to to collect
their money. Yeah, he goes to collect money.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
And he goes into town and for no reason that
I've ever heard or run.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
None than anybody'd ever come up.

Speaker 4 (53:07):
With wyatt ear.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
Just like smashes him over the head with his gun.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
Well that had that. They called it buffaloe, you know
that technique and they I know the movie.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
But you usually do that to some drunk guy and
a bar.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
That's that's when he would use it. You know. He
developed it supposedly to handle drunks, you know, and to
calm him down or to get them subdued by banging
them in the forehead with his with his pistol. And
he and he just walked up to to Tom McClory
and banged him over the top of the head for
no reason, right, So other than the fact that he

(53:43):
was in McClory right.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
That that day, I guess. And they say that, well
Wyatt was in a bad mood. Well, so you're in
a bad one of the guys he killed one of
the guys they killed in the gunfight they had just like, uh, Wyatt,
it just like Ben absolutely absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
Yeah, well unprovoked, unprovoked and banged him on the top
of Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
That never quite gets as much attention as it seems
to me that like, and is that the brother that
did not have the pistol when he was Because if
I'm correct, Jim and recently I heard it a little
bit differently. But I've always thought for ever since we've

(54:33):
been talking about this that there were three or brothers.
They all had pistols, and there was Doc Holliday who
had his pistol and the Wells Fargo shotgun.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
They had stopped by the Wells Fargo office and picked
up the shotgun from Wells.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
Fargo supposedly gave it to uh Doc Holiday.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
And they and they told him to hide it in his.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Jacket, right, and uh, they go down, And am I
wrong that only one McClary brother and uh not obviously
I didn't have one that's depicted in the movie. But
only only only one McClary brother and one Clanton brother

(55:18):
had a cult had a piece on them, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
Yeah, I think that's true because I know that.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
So when a gunfight takes starts, I mean, when the
gunfight starts, only two.

Speaker 4 (55:36):
Of the of the of the.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
Three or there are four people because I kids there, I.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Mean there, but yeah, but I's not I doesn't want
to fight, and he doesn't want.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
Says I'm on armed, I'm on arm, you know, and
he runs into the photography shop next door. And but
they were all young.

Speaker 4 (55:58):
But it's so said.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
One of the McClary brothers was unarmed also, And it
seems to me it was like.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
Four Frank, the one that doc kills, the one that
docs where Frank. He's wounded and he says, I got
you now, and a holiday says you're a daisy if
you do, and then he shoots him. That guy wasn't armed.
What he was reaching for was his rifle in a
scabbard attached to his saddle on his horse. His rifle

(56:28):
was put away and that's what he was trying to
get when when he was shot. So yeah, it was
it was, you know, pretty much an ambush, although they
did apparently say, you know, surrender your weapons, which was
kind of ridiculous because they were on their way out

(56:48):
of town. Yes, and you were supposed to turn in
your weapons to a couple that you could turn him
into a saloon, you could turn him into the sheriff's office,
but you really weren't supposed to be carrying weapons around town.
Open carry wasn't really allowed in Tombstone but it is now.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah it is in Arizona now.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
They definitely can't now. But but but you know that
didn't count when you were on your way out of town,
after you had already picked up your weapon, and you
were out of town, going out of town. That's essentially
what they were because they'd already left the Okay Corral.
They had already left, and they were they were kind.

Speaker 4 (57:29):
Of in an alleyway.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
Ye, yeah, they were right next to it, but but
they were. They were essentially on their way out of town. Now.
They had purchased ammunition a little earlier in that morning,
which apparently the herbs found out about. Oh the McClory's
are buying ammunition. That must mean they're they're coming gunning
for us. Could also mean that they just needed something.
They're about to undertake a long trips.

Speaker 4 (57:52):
You know, shoot rabbits on their way to Missouri.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
Well, you know they're going they're going from Tombstone, Arizona
to Iowa, Iowa. Nasty Indians. Now, there's still some still
some bad men out there, you know, bad guys. Especially
if you're carrying a lot of cash to your sister's wedding,
you know you might want some protection, right. So, uh so,
you know, they were re supplying themselves with ammunition. But

(58:18):
you know, and then the confrontation occurred later that afternoon.
Is like, like we said, if they were on their
way out of town, yeah, yeah, and then as you
and then as you know, the town was almost immediately
divided on on Uh.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
Well, first of all, Jim, you're dealing with Democrats and
Republicans here. Yeah. Absolutely, So that's look at the divisions
that we have. It's basically the same thing that was
going on in Tombstone, where you had a group of
people that wanted uh, you know, Tombstone to you know,
be more business oriented and schools and and you know,

(59:00):
like and and and you had a group of people
and today we came to Arizona because we don't we
don't want the government telling us what to do and
how to do well. And and how different, how different
is that than what we had generally?

Speaker 1 (59:13):
The ranchers were people from Texas and from the South,
and they were the Democrats, and they'd been on the
on the Confederate side of the war. And the business
people were more from uh, you know, the northern states
and they'd been on the Union side, like the IRPs
were from Illinois to start with. And uh, and you know,

(59:36):
a couple of them had served in the Union Army.
All why it was too young for the Civil War,
but he, but a couple of them had start. He
was learning his risky business. You know, he was running
a brothel and he was a teenager.

Speaker 7 (59:54):
Yeah, go ahead, but but yeah, they they the business
interests were more Republican aligned with the former you know, union.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
Forces, et cetera. So there was definitely a political element
involved element, yeah, you know, better politics involved for sure,
for sure. You know, being was a Democrat. Why it
was a Republican. Yeah, that had that had some you know,
just some some extra layer of hostility to two things.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
Jim, How how long after the the the yeah you
call it a gunfight? Are you just refer to it
as the murders? How far after? How how long after

(01:00:53):
the murders was it before they city decided to have
this inquiry. It's sort of like like inquiry into what happened,
what had happened, and.

Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
Whether or not the IRP should should be charged or not.

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
Very very very soon there there actually was a coroner's
inquest within a day or so of the of the gunplight,
and within a couple of days. In those days, private
citizens could file charges, criminal charges and there would be
an inquiry into whether there was you know, yeah, if

(01:01:40):
there was probable cause to hold them for trial. So
so Ike went ahead and filed charges against Wyatt and
doc and and an inquiry proceeded. And this thing was lasted,
as you know, we mentioned before, it lasted for close
to a month, and it had test testimony, witnesses being testified.

(01:02:03):
Ike testified.

Speaker 4 (01:02:05):
There are.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
Kind of sort of transcripts of their testimony. They aren't
the most accurate. They're not like a court reporter was there.
They're kind of drawn up from reporters notes, et cetera.
But there aren't supposed transcripts of their testimony. And there's
no question that Whyt's testimony why it immediately got lawyers

(01:02:27):
from Wells Fargo. They put up the money for him
to get lawyers, and they crafted a pretty you know,
a pretty exculpatory statement from him, one that you know,
doesn't accept any blame whatsoever, right and puts all the
blame on the other guys. And as you know, when
Whyatt got up and was able to give this statement

(01:02:48):
and under you know, kind of a weird quirk of
Arizona at the time, because this was a preliminary inquiry.
He didn't he alone didn't have to be subject to
any cross examination. He could just get up there and
say whatever he had he had worked up with his
lawyers and in terms of a statement, whereas other the
other folks he testified, like Being and Clanton, et cetera,

(01:03:12):
were subject across examination. So but it went on for
a month, and as as you know, for at least
a couple of weeks of that time, Wyatt and Doc
were thrown in jail.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
And the only reason that the other two brothers weren't
thrown in jail is because they've both been shot, right,
they were.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
Both recovering from their wounds. Yeah, Yeah, they've been wounded
in the in the gunfight for sure. Otherwise they would
have been in jail. Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
So one of the uh, one of the other elements
of uh Tombstone that I always find so kind of
disturbingly uh, and you know, in in the movie, maybe
maybe one of our one of our listeners might might know.

Speaker 4 (01:04:03):
Ah, but.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Yeah, why after Wyatt's after the Sam Elliott characters is shot,
and then after Whyatt's uh brothers killed, he goes Virgil
and thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:04:26):
Then he goes on the what ride.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Vendetta It was called the Vendetta Ride, and.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
The Vendetta Ride is you know, they say show it
in Tombstone, and probably in Tombstone it's you get the
voice over too, and you get the idea at that
point they just went around and you know, lot up
and cleaned up that the entire area killed. You know,

(01:04:57):
you get the feeling from the movie that they shot
like thirty people. You know, he just said, like everybody
that's even close to being a bad guy's gonna get killed.
And I don't know, maybe we've talked about all this
sort of stuff the.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
First time I saw the movie. I don't even think
i'd talk to you about it yet, But the first
time I did know that they had had to tear
out a bunch of pages of the screenplay, yes, when
they were making the movie. So when I'm watching the
movie and when it comes to the Vendetta Ride and
you get Robert Mitcham back in with the narration right,
and it looked to me like basically, you'd have one

(01:05:35):
shot of a bunch of guys on horses riding, you know,
from stage left to stage right, and then you'd cut
in a picture of cowboys riding from stage right to
stay back and forth, back and forth, just just random
cuts with random shots of cowboys riding around, blowing things
up and shooting each other, and Robert Mitcham saying, and

(01:05:56):
then they went on this ride, and I'm thinking, yeah,
that's where they tore the pages out. That's where that,
you know, the compressed storytelling comes in. But it does
look like, you know, he's shooting up the whole the
whole countryside, you know what I mean, like riding into
let me ride into a barber shop like super you
know something, you know, and shoot the guy in the

(01:06:16):
in the I mean, really, you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Know, it is a movie. I mean, listen, it is
a movie. It is a movie, so you know, I
kind of get that, But so much of.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Of I think I think he does he shoot Ike
in the movie? I think he.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
I think he points the gun and Ike and does
he shoot. No, he doesn't shoot Ike. He doesn't. I
don't think he shoots Ike, points the gun at him
and says, you know what, away again or something, sniveling
and pleading for his life with a gun at his forehead,
And as we all know, I ended up dying and Uh,

(01:07:00):
what's that part of areas well?

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
You would know having gone off and looked for his
bones a couple.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
Of times that did go off and look for his
bones A couple of times.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
He wound up. He wound up dying what pretty close
to the border of New Mexico.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think of the name of
there's a mining community up there, and there's a mining town.

Speaker 4 (01:07:19):
I'll think of that name.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
It's not really important, but I yeah, I went up there.
I can I remember the first Yeah, the first time
I went up the weird that's what I was chucking.

Speaker 4 (01:07:32):
I went up there with Jeff, a couple of city boys.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
Oh.

Speaker 4 (01:07:37):
Then I go find cl We thought we.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Were got this map. We found this map.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
And here's what happens is there's a guy by the
name of Terry Ike Clanton who's still around. I've got
nothing against Sterry Eyed Clinton. I you know, I've met
him before.

Speaker 4 (01:07:59):
Nice guy.

Speaker 2 (01:08:01):
Uh claims to be, you know, part of some part
of the Clanton family, and he meant very well. Maybe,
but he and a person who is well known for
finding people's graves, Jim, he's the guy.

Speaker 4 (01:08:22):
The guy.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
Actually they wrote a book, not they this guy wrote
a book about where all these famous graves were.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
I think they've got a website too well.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
So I went to this is four years ago now,
about four or five years ago. Once when I bought
the house in Bisbee, I thought, you know, gee, I'm
I'm not really that far away, uh from where Terry

(01:08:55):
Ike Clanton claimed that Ike Clanton was buried. And and
what what Terry Terry Ike said about Ike Clinton was
that that he had found the grave along with this
other guy that was a grave find I would call

(01:09:16):
him a grave finder.

Speaker 4 (01:09:16):
I don't know what I should do.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
He was famous for finding people's graves, finding people's graves.
And then they went back to the city, or they
went back to the state and asked permission to you know,
uh to like probably the same thing that I would

(01:09:40):
have wanted to do, which I had permission to do,
is if I had found his grave and I could
verify that his his bones were Ike Clanton's bones, the
mayor Tombstone was going to allow me to take those

(01:10:02):
bones and put him in boothill which nobody's been buried
in for about the last thirty years, forty fifty sixty years.

Speaker 4 (01:10:13):
Whatever it is.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
And So it all started with this idea that Terry
Ike Clanton said, this is where he is. We know
exactly where he is, and this is the exact spot
that he was. So I originally went up there MORENCI,
that's the I think that's the name of the.

Speaker 4 (01:10:34):
Area, mornso okay.

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
And I originally went up there with another guy, another
city boy, and we went up there and we really
knew we didn't really know what we were doing. And
we got out of the truck and we you know,
I don't know, he had something on his phone that

(01:10:56):
kind of showed the direction of where, you know, we
were supposed to be looking. And we walked for about
a half an hour or forty five minutes, and we
found what was at that point all this is kind
of crazy around.

Speaker 1 (01:11:18):
Just found that website we went to that had like
the satellite images and the pictures of what the rocks
stat together should look like, and yeah, all that geo
map locations. It said.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
Well, you know, I looked at that and I thought like, well,
this is real. Like everything else in my life, I'm
just like, I'm an idiot. I'm just like, well, you know,
if it says so on my phone, must it must
it's gotta be real, right, So I, uh yeah, I
went up there with his friend Jeff and he was

(01:11:54):
a city boy and he was I think he lived
in Phoenix, and he met me. We went up through Morancy.
We parked the car and.

Speaker 1 (01:12:03):
We were helping us with like website web.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
Very very good with computers, very very good with computers.
But we went up there and proceeded as to get
totally fucking lost.

Speaker 1 (01:12:20):
And and no cell phone.

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
No, no, you don't have any The cell phone worked
as far as him looking at the cell phone and
being able to go like this is north and this
is south sort of, but it didn't like you couldn't
call anybody or you know, it was we're way off
the beaten track, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:12:43):
And uh what you what?

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
You what you originally look look for? According to Terry
Ike Clanton in this group and his guy that wrote
this book.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
His name is Brownie Grave research James.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
Okay, well, is you look for peg Leg Wilson's the.

Speaker 1 (01:13:06):
Room gonna say it's right near peg Leg Wilson's cabin.
What a great man.

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
This is supposedly where where Ike Clanton was was killed.
According to the best history that you're aware of. Is
that correct, Jim, I mean yeah, yeah, yeahh And so
therefore his grave would have you know, they would have
buried him where he was.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):
Well, supposedly he was buried on the site where he
was shot.

Speaker 2 (01:13:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
Yeah, and I under a tree.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
Yeah, okay, Well there turns out there's a lot of
trees out fun.

Speaker 1 (01:13:45):
Yeah, look for the one that might have been alive one.

Speaker 2 (01:13:50):
Yeah, that one. Uh, I think that oak tree is
still there, the one that Johnny Ringo was found underneath.
I've been to his graveside a couple of times. But
but anyway, so we're looking for ike grave site and Jeff,
Jeff's heavy overweight. Uh. And once you get up into

(01:14:17):
that like, uh, you know, there aren't any roads anymore.
You know, it gets pretty hairy, you know, going up
and down like hilly uh uh, foresty sort of like
you know, I don't know what what you call it,
branches and you know, yeah, and you you know, you

(01:14:42):
start and so anyway, we spent an hour looking for
hour or two we were we were I was pretty
sure we were gonna find it because they have in
that guy's book, they have pictures, pictures of his gravesite
and they have other pictures like yes, and other rocks

(01:15:06):
that are close at nearby.

Speaker 1 (01:15:10):
Visual you know, clues supposed.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
Well, then there there are other grave markings in that
area as if like like Wilson's his wives or his
dead children, you know, whoever, they were kind of buried
in the same area. And there was there were right,
there was writing this is according to what you know,

(01:15:35):
I'm reading online. So this is what me and Jeff
are looking for. And so Jeff and I go up there,
and you know, we go looking for what we see
on that site, and and there's pictures, there's pictures of
of of I and location.

Speaker 1 (01:15:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
That injury my gosh, well yeah, uh what do you
what do they what do they call that in the
military when it's like a longitude and latitude right, I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:16:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're your your your your location. Yeah,
so GPS, Yeah, there's GPS here on this thing.

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:16:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16:17):
Listen, Jim, I think that uh well, that we didn't
from when I remember the story, you guys were lost
until suddenly you saw a telephone pole somewhere.

Speaker 2 (01:16:28):
You're jumping, you're you're jumping, you're jumping away ahead, I'll
I'll continue with.

Speaker 1 (01:16:34):
This I thought you were knitting off the story.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
No, well, no, no, what I was getting off the
story because I wanted to end this particular uh podcast,
and I wanted to pick this up again and talk
about this again. And so let's do that, okay, because

(01:16:57):
there's a lot of Tombstone stuff that I want to
talk to you about, because we had this whole, this
idea of creating something for the movies or for streaming,
or eight episodes or ted episodes or twelve episodes around Tombstone,

(01:17:20):
because there's so much that went on even before the
year perce even showed up.

Speaker 1 (01:17:25):
Well, absolutely, and our first thought was that that that trial,
but so called trial, was such an interesting situation that
was and so kind of ignored by history. You know,
there's no mention of it in the movie. I don't
think there was even any mention of it in Kevin's
original screenplay.

Speaker 4 (01:17:44):
No, I don't think so. I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
No, huh, not at all. And it you know, there's
there's an entire book written about it, you remember, by
a professor at your father's old alma mater or Northwestern
law school, called in Tombstone, which is a very thorough
and this guy is a trial advocacy professor. He teaches
trial advocacy and his book is a very detale, look

(01:18:10):
at the whole you know, the whole question, month long
in quest without without getting really boring or to to
you know, legally technical or anything. It's kind of it's
a very fun read called Murdering Tombstone.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
Depends on what your definition of is.

Speaker 1 (01:18:29):
All right, all right, I'm saying, hey, coming, it's coming
from a law school professor. Believe me, it's readable. Okay,
it's it doesn't seem like a law cast.

Speaker 4 (01:18:38):
So yeah, hold on.

Speaker 5 (01:18:40):
Well, we're just doing a new thing now, which I
wanted to tell the audience about, which is that instead
of just recording one episode from now on, we're just
going to record two back to back. Boom boom, split
him up into two so you get an extra episode
every week. So we're going to try and go to
two episodes every week going forward.

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
And uh, I got some more stated to that guest.

Speaker 5 (01:18:57):
I'm bringing guests, like you know, this week it'll be
Kathy was their today and then you're seeing this on Thursday.
So and if we don't have a guest, then it'll
just be two of these episodes. If we do have
a guess it'll be one in one.

Speaker 4 (01:19:07):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:19:08):
We're just we're just giving you more content, and I
got even more stuff coming for you in the future.
But I got to see how this one works out.
These like three hour recording windows two episodes.

Speaker 2 (01:19:17):
We'll see how that works out.

Speaker 5 (01:19:18):
And if it's good and you guys are liking it
and we're getting you know, more listeners, more subscribers, then
we can just give more content. So we're trying this
new thing out and hopefully it'll work.

Speaker 2 (01:19:28):
Yeah, yeah, okay, so, uh can I take your break?

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:19:33):
I got you next start over again?

Speaker 1 (01:19:37):
Okay. Our bladders aren't what they used to be. Yeah,
we better we better leave them again. Let a strange show,
which hand would you choose? The way you.

Speaker 3 (01:19:59):
Look?

Speaker 1 (01:20:00):
Someone earlier than you undering me?

Speaker 2 (01:20:06):
Why two?

Speaker 1 (01:20:07):
Let a bee carried on without shoes?

Speaker 2 (01:20:09):
Won't you like to se