Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello again and welcome to Just Say No. I'm your
host Maria Calabrey's and you're listening to CACAA Radio ten
fifty AM one oh six point five FM. It's time
to grow on NO with some of the smartest minds
in the industry.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
By twenty twenty, Bank of America and Merrill Lynch estimate
that will grow to thirty five billion dollars, and many
experts believe it could eventually reach two hundred billion dollars
each and every year.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Stop, I can see.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Your your.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
I'm a better fie who has gonna be gone. Taking
me a while to get it, had to live and
cry to appreciate life and what you give his word,
when you hold a name, when you hold me so close,
someone better and under your skill want to leave the mine.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Today we're taking on a topic that's got a lot
of people talking and maybe even a bit nervous. Cannabis
and psychedelics. Imagine if something as simple as a herb
or a mushroom career shape our understanding of mental health. Well,
(01:43):
if you're feeling unsure, you're not alone. And today's guest
is here to clear up some of the myths and
bring us closer to the science behind these powerful substances
that are not only for the adventurous but hold a
real true for improving brain health and enhancing general wellbeing.
(02:04):
I'm thrilled to introduce doctor Menash Gern. Mnash is a
neuroscientist who's earned his PhD from McGill University. Doctor Menash's
research focuses on understanding the effects of cannabis, but even
in more depth psychedelics like psilocybin on the brain and
(02:26):
how they can support our mental health. Mnash brings a
wealth of knowledge from his groundbreaking work at UCSF in
Robin kart Hart Harris's lab, leading the exploration on how
psychedelics impact brain connectivity and neuroplasticity. His expertise bridges psychology, philosophy,
(02:49):
and neuroscience, which enables him to offer a really broad
view on how these natural substances might help us understand
our minds and new ways and we can apply this
knowledge toward daily lives to improve them and if you'd
like to learn more at home. Doctor Gern also shares
his research as the Psychedelic Scientist on YouTube, where he
(03:13):
breaks down the latest findings in an easy to digest way.
Whether you're a bit curious or cautiously skeptical. We've got
an incredible guest and an exciting discussion lined up. So
sit back, relax, and let's get smarter together and just
say no. Welcome, doctor Gern. Thank you so much for
(03:37):
joining us today. I'd like you briefly to introduce yourself
and tell us a little bit about Robin Carhart Harris's
lab and your role in the research being done.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
Yeah, thank you so much for the introduction, Maria, and
I'm really excited to chat with you today. These really
are some really important and popular topics, and people are
increasingly being asked about psychedelics and cannabis and the stigma
is starting to be reduced, but there's still a lot
of work to do, a lot of stuff to clear up. Yes,
as you mentioned, I work at UCSF currently as a neuroscientist,
(04:10):
and what we primarily do is brain imaging research on
psychedelics leuch as psilocybin, where psilocybin is the molecule in
so called magic mushrooms that has profound effects, and so
what we study is how that works on the brain
and how that might relate to changes in things like
well being and psychological functioning. So what many people might
(04:32):
not know is that psilocybin is used very commonly to
treat depression and research studies with a lot of promise.
And it's also in a variety of ways we'll get
into actually good for your brain and healthy in certain
ways and helping it grow and regenerate and be more
flexible over time.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Just let's really start at psychedelics one oh one, cannabis,
magic mushrooms. Let's start magic mushrooms. So how would a
magic bush, for instance, as a fungui differ from one
I put in my salad.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
Yeah, so the fungi kingdom is a massive one, and
there's a huge variety of different types of fungi, and
in particular, there's around two hundred types of fungi that
contain psilocybin, and so there's a huge variety. And so
the main difference is that they contain this little molecule
and a couple of other molecules. Other than that, you
might have walked past some psilocybin containing mushrooms on a
(05:28):
hike or in a forest, as they do grow in
a variety of places naturally across the world, and they
are actually quite common, and just by the naked eye,
it would be indistinguishable from any other mushroom growing And
it just happens to be the case. If you consume these,
they have a profound effect on your experience.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
And psilocybin is just one of many compounds.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
Correct, Yeah, so there's several, but psilocybin is the main
one that elicits the psychedelic effects, as we'd say.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
And I think that's very interesting in parallel when it
comes to cannabis, because many people think, and it's nobody's fault,
it's because of the prohibition. There's been a huge amount
of misinformation or no information. So what most people heard
of was CBD or THC, and most people think it's
(06:20):
just THC and high. Now CBD is having its day,
but there's over one hundred and fifty compounds and cannabis too,
so and all of these have the potential for medicinal benefit.
So your research is so critical. So cannabis not a mushroom. Cannabis,
(06:42):
i'm told, is a vegetable and a herb. Can you
verify that and tell us a little bit about cannabis
compared to fung gui?
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Certainly, I mean we can call cannabis a plant herb,
and it's it's a different class than bungi. Obviously, it's
not a mushroom, but similar in that it's a natural
occurring organism that and it's also similar to magic mushrooms
actually in the fact that it's been used for hundreds,
if not thousands of years in different cultures across the world.
(07:11):
And it's quite interesting that we were very idiosyncratic in
the modern world as defining these compounds as drugs to
be outlawed, because cannabis as well as magic mushrooms have
been revered as almost as sacraments, as inducing these spiritual
and healing experiences that should be used in a ritual
kind of way, and so they've been kind of revered
(07:34):
as these parts of the natural world as a gift
to us that.
Speaker 6 (07:37):
We can use for our own benefit.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
And so it's really interesting we have this view of
them as these dangerous drugs in the modern context.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Doctor garn What exactly is neuroplasticity.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
It's a fascinating topic that's actually becoming more and more
of interest in the mental health fields as well as neuroscience.
So neuroplasticity refers to the brain's ability to change itself,
to rewire connections, and to change itself in response to experience,
in response to injuries. It allows us to learn it's
(08:12):
involved in a variety of processes. And the old dogma,
you know, maybe twenty years ago, was that once we're
an adult, our brains don't change. They're not plastic anymore.
We're set in our ways. That's just how we are.
And now we know from decades of research that it's
not true.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
So if my husband, if my husband tells me stop
trying to teach an old dog new tricks, No, don't
let them get off on that.
Speaker 5 (08:38):
Yeah, I would not let people get away with that.
I think that's just an excuse that people like to use.
But I think the research has told us time and
time again that the brain has this remarkable ability to change,
and that might be less when we're older, but it's
not zero. It's still there, and if you believe it's there,
you can create the change. If you believe it's impossible,
(08:59):
you're going to create up for yourself.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Wow wow. And it might be a little bit more
challenging when you're older. But is that where these substances
can help facilitate it.
Speaker 6 (09:13):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
I think particularly magic mushrooms have been highlighted for being
potent to neuroplastis the enhancers, and that's one of the
reasons why they're finding these studies with depression, that people
will take psilocybin mushrooms for just pure psilocybin into therapeutic
setting with a therapist one to three d times, let's say,
over a month or so, and six months later, a
(09:36):
month later, their curative a depression that they had for
twenty plus years, which is insane, but it's only possible
because of these neuroplastic exchanges in the brain, which are
relatively unpre precedented in the context of psychiatry.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Now, I know people who have suffered in chronic depression,
and going back you talk twenty years, but going back
even further, I know people have been on psychopharmacologic medicines
before the Ssriyes, right, there was a problem with valuum
and then that became addictive, and then there was I
(10:11):
think Eleville. Those were dating back and then the ssriyes
came out, But people are on those forever. And can
you talk a little bit about the side effects associate
it with. I mean a lot of people who need
to be on medication, shy away from it because right
because of the side effects, and then there's left to suffer.
(10:34):
Could you speak a little bit to.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
That, certainly, I mean there's definitely in place for these
standard pharmaceuticals. Standard antidepressants helped many people cope and live
lives that they wouldn't be able to live otherwise. But
as you said, they come with side effects, they come
with the trade off. And so one of the most
commonly prescribed classic drugs are SSRIs, so selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors,
(10:59):
things like laxapro or prozac.
Speaker 6 (11:03):
People may have heard of either of those.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
Two calming prescribe drugs and these those are both antidepressants,
and they basically change your brain chemistry to help you
feel a bit better, but it comes at the cost
of lessening your capacity for positive emotions as well.
Speaker 6 (11:19):
They kind of dull you emotionally.
Speaker 5 (11:21):
They can lead to wake gain, They kill people's sex drive,
and can lead to fatigue and all sorts of things.
And so you're the trade off is you're less depressed,
but you're less anything else.
Speaker 6 (11:36):
Right, It's a dulling out.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
And you're you're expect it to take it every single day,
and definitely otherwise you're gonna get worse again.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Can you tell us what a drink does to your brain?
It's not calming your nerves, right, it's killing. It's dulling it.
It's killing the brain sells it's I don't. I'm making
the analogy to the antidepressants, where it's a dulling of facts.
And when I talk to people who do psilocybin or
(12:06):
consume cannabis, they say it actually relieves the anxiety and
the depression to help them engage, not become the stoner,
stereotypical couchlock. Could you speak a little bit? Is there
truth to that? Are their studies? Is that your experience?
Speaker 6 (12:23):
I think that's a really good point to make.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
The thing the important distinguishing characteristic of alcohol versus cannabis
and magic mushrooms is that alcohol is toxic for your brain.
Cannabis is not. Magic mushrooms are not. So alcohol is
very littlely neurotoxic in a way that these other substances
are not. And it's interesting that alcohol is culturally sanctioned
(12:46):
while these are demonized.
Speaker 6 (12:47):
But that's a whole other topic.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
But what you're alluding to was how alcohol will dull
and suppress our emotions and as opposed to giving us
an opportunity to actually face them and work through them.
And how alcohol works in the brain is it primarily
activates particular brain receptors, which are the brain receptors that
(13:10):
reduce the activity of our brain cells. And so literally
when you take you drink a lot of alcohol, it's
suppressing the activity of different brain cells. And this is
also why people feel a bit more loose and disinhibited.
Our usual kind of self consciousness and our ability to
regulate ourselves and our impulses is reduced because literally those
(13:31):
brain cells are being turned down. And same with our
areas related to emotions like sadness or fear, those are
also tamped down, which perhaps can be useful to socialize
and talk to that attractive person you're a nervous to
talk to, but over time it's you're really not making
real growth and progress as an individual. You're using it
as this kind of crutch or way to avoid your feelings.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
And then that's where the addictive effect comes and you
need it and you rely on it, whereas you're not
having the correct of emotional experience. The difference if you're
consuming Uh, certain cannabinoids and terpenes or magic mushrooms, your
brain is actually changing and then you experience that. How
(14:23):
would that go if if I were to enter into
therapy and I had some type of post traumatic stress
and I had a face of fear that I've just
been dampening down go away with alcohol and pharma pharmacological drugs,
how would what would that therapy look like?
Speaker 5 (14:43):
Yeah, it's a It's really important emphasize that when we're
talking about magic mushrooms and psychedelics in the context of
mental health, it's in a very structured way. It's not
the same as just taking it with your friends and
going to a party or a festival or or what
have you.
Speaker 6 (14:58):
It's a very structured process.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Sess Where how it begins is you'll meet your therapist
that's guiding you through it, and they're trained professional who
knows specifically about psychedelic experiences and how to guide people
through them. And if you've passed the screening.
Speaker 6 (15:16):
We usually screen.
Speaker 5 (15:17):
People out with a family or personal history of schizophrenia
or bipolar disorder, for example. There is just a bit
more risk there to screen those people out. We bring
them in, we ask them to share about their lives,
what they're going through, what they're looking to get out
of the experience, and tell them how to best navigate
the experience in a safe way. And then the actual
(15:38):
drug session is done in a very controlled way where
you're in this comfortable room. You're asked to wear eye
shades and listen to music on the playlist and you
literally just go internal into your experience and explore what
comes up, and naturally, memories will come up that you've
long forgotten. You might start sobbing a little bit from
emotions from years ago that you forgot, you didn't process,
(16:01):
and you're guided through this very vulnerable and raw experience
of you know, reliving memories, processing emotions, having new perspectives
on your life. And then after that powerful experience, you're
supported in, Okay, how do we make sense of this?
Speaker 6 (16:16):
How can we.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
Ground that into your life and the changes you want
to make. And so that's the process that magic mushrooms
are usually given in to treat depression or anxiety or
these other conditions.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
And what actually happens to your brain visa viva neuroplasticity,
what's actually happening.
Speaker 6 (16:33):
Yeah, So it's really interesting.
Speaker 5 (16:34):
So during like experientially psychologically you're going through all these
insights and reliving and so on and processing emotions. But
at the same time as that's happening, our brain is
becoming more plastic, So literally it's allowing your brain cells
to grow new connections that then you can encode what
you're experience in the last what you're experiencing in the
lasting way.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Wow, these are neural pathways.
Speaker 6 (17:00):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Your neurons are physically growing, they're physically grow extensions temporarily,
but then you can make them last.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
The belief used to be right the brain couldn't change
or heal. When did in research time was this discovery made?
Speaker 5 (17:18):
Yeah, I think broadly over the past twenty years is
slowly being growing in recognition that it's possible. But I
think with psychondalics in the last ten years it's shown like, wow,
we can really boost this in a reliable way, in
a way that's potent and that last, and that could
be used for therapy. That's relatively recent in the past decade,
that's really taken off.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
The realization that the brain has a remarkable ability to
actually adapt. You got to get past that trauma, so
you have to be able to tolerate it, adapt and
then heal. I mean, wow, And isn't it a little paradoxical,
(17:58):
Like the brain doesn't necessarily it's not necessarily wired over
time to adapt. It's more it likes structure, it likes
it likes certainty, not so much uncertainty. So that's how
our pathways become cemented or habitual patterns happen.
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Yes, I love that you brought this up, because the
brain really is in the business of trying to make
our lives as automated and as easy as possible. Right,
so it's get stuck in these patterns which it thinks, Oh,
it makes living easier because it makes you certain, I'm
going to enter it into this environment, I'm gonna be needed,
needed to act in this way. And this is what works.
(18:41):
This is how I am, this is how the world is.
But what's interesting, and there's there's a lot more research
emerging these days suggesting that the more rigid we are
in our ways, the worst our mental health. The worst
are resilience, right, the worst are adaptability. And so I
think the corner stone of mental health and emotional resilience
(19:02):
is flexibility. Flexibility in our thoughts, in who we think
we are and what we believe about the world, and
always being open to changing and growing. I mean, that's
one of the biggest markers of mental health and flourishing overall.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
How do we have innovation, How do we get past traumas?
How do we even just have conversations if we're on
two different sides? I mean, to be able to have
a conversation with you. There's many people I know who
will not even listen to me. They're going to just
say no and no, oh Maria, cannabis psychedelic, what are
(19:38):
you crazy? LSD people jumping out and well, okay, well
maybe you could use some little flexibility and expand your brain.
There's a time and place for structure. But is that
why they'll say? For older people, it's very important to
get comfortable with the uncomfortable, learn a new language, pick
(20:02):
up an instrument. Is that where that comes in for
older people certainly?
Speaker 5 (20:08):
And those things you just mentioned help boost neuroplasticity, So
to keep your brain plastic and nimble, you know, one
of some of the most important things you can do
are seek out new experiences, learn new skills, learn language,
learn an instrument. It's never too late Also, one of
the biggest boosters of neuroplasticity is endurance exercise, whether that's swimming, cycling, jogging,
(20:32):
even brisk walks during that for half an hour, let's say,
three to four times a week is really it would
make wonders for people's brain health and mental health.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
In terms of cannabis, can you tell us a little
bit of heard like the mother of all cannabinoids now
is being coined CBG, and I know that there see
the prohibition limits research, but it's exciting. With more acceptance
and with more legalization, you could speak to whether the
barriers of research are coming down, and if you could
(21:05):
tell me a little bit about the research on CBG
or how certain cannabinoids affect the brain.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
Certainly, and so cannabis, as you were saying earlier, has
a whole variety of different compounds within it. It's not
just TC, which is what we usually associate it with
because that's what gives the typical high we associate with cannabis.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
And not to interrupt you, maybe you could just explain
the difference as well THC before it is heated up,
it's actually in its raw form THCA.
Speaker 6 (21:37):
Is that correct, right? It is correct.
Speaker 5 (21:40):
Yeh TCA when warmed up, when heat it turns into GC.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yes, which has so even only THC has the psychotropic effect.
Speaker 6 (21:52):
Yeah, certainly.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
And the three cannabinoids, as are called cannabinoids, are just
cannabis molecules, molecules that have occur on the canvas plant.
The most popular ones that are studied and looked at
for their benefits and effects are THHC. We just mentioned CBD,
and then CBG, which you also briefly mentioned, and so
I guess walk.
Speaker 6 (22:13):
Through each of these really briefly.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
So THHC is the compound you know that makes people high,
it makes people stoned. That's what people associate with cannabis.
And this has the typical effects, and in addition to that,
it can also it's often obviously in many people notice
used to believe anxiety. In lower doses, particularly, it can
(22:34):
really calm people's anxiety and also help with things like
chronic pain.
Speaker 6 (22:39):
And that's THC.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
But then also CBD is also potently reduced as anxiety
and has been found in studies to do that. Studies
have also found that it could be antidepressant, and not
only that, it's also anti inflammatory. So people even with
arthritis and different inflammatory conditions are experiencing relief from cb
not to mention also its effects for reducing epileptic seizures,
(23:05):
so reducing seizures for people with epilepsy, and it's actually
FDA approved for that. It is a compound CBD based
drug that does that. So CBD has no psychological effects
acutely like it doesn't make you high, but behind the
scenes of our biology, through our endocannabinoid system, which I
could talk about, is actually has all these different health benefits.
(23:27):
And then the last one is CBG, which is a
kind of simpler molecule than CBD or cheats and actually
is you know, can be considered a precurstro of them.
It can turn into them with different steps, and that's
also very much involved in reducing inflammation. It modulates our
immune system and it also relieves oxidative stress, meaning it's
(23:51):
an antioxidant, which again it means it clears up cellular damage.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
It's healthy for ourselves as well throughout our bodies.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Now, cannabis has a rougher road. I think you can
answer this in terms of research.
Speaker 6 (24:07):
Yes, certainly.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
Yeah, there's a lot more research on magic mushrooms than
cannabis these days.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
There are actual peer reviewed studies for cannabis on those indications,
which is that correct?
Speaker 5 (24:21):
Yes, certainly these are the most rigorous, randomalized, controlled, charles
esteemed institutions with cannabis and for psychedelics.
Speaker 6 (24:28):
For that matter.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Great and on our show page will list references for
our listeners. Yes, for anti seizures epi dialects. CBD is
used in EPI dialects pharmaceutical drug, which that'll be a
whole other episode. Has caused quite confusion because once the
FDA approved it as an ingredient and a prescription drug,
(24:52):
they didn't speak to it as an ingredient in food
or in supplements, which is holding things up when it
comes to food and supplements. Do you believe even though
CBD is an ingredient in a pharmaceutical drug such as
epidialects for seizures, do you believe there is an OTC
(25:13):
and over the counter use for I mean, yes, right,
it should be available when tinctures, gummies, topicals one hundred.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
I think they're trying to monopolize by making it into
a psychiatric drug that they can profit off of in
patent and it's an ip PLA. It's you know, it's really
just a psychiatry pharmaceutical play, that's what that is.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
I think CBDs should be widely available in a variety
of different forms.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
It's non psychoactive, it's not addictive, it's not harmful outright
for the you know, brain or body, if anything, is
really beneficial for it when used in the reasonable doses.
Speaker 6 (25:52):
And so there's no reason why it should be outlowed
the way it should be. This doesn't make any scientific sense.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Follow the money. I mean, we go all the way
back to the nineteen thirty seven Marijuana Tax Act, before
they probably even knew there was an endocannabinoid system, and
back when Eli Lilly was actually growing marijuana, and before
we turned to Pompey. But that's a whole other episode
on we'll get on talk about opioids. But and even
(26:22):
the US government held the patent on CBD from around
right just recently expired, and the indication was as a neuroprotectant.
So there's a lot of misinformation out there, and there's
a lot of conversation for us to spark. But you know,
(26:45):
so many people justifiably are concerned about potential risks, you
know of cannabis and on psychedelics, and they talk about
maybe you could just speak to are they addictive?
Speaker 5 (27:03):
Right, so we could start there. Yeah, for we could
start with magic mushrooms really quick. The answer is no,
there's no evidence that they create physical dependence or psychological
dependence in nine to nine percent of cases. And just
the nature of the way the drug works is you
can't really take it twice in a week in a
high dose because you could get tolerance really fast. And
(27:24):
also the effects are so intense and somewhat unpredictable.
Speaker 6 (27:28):
You don't know if you're.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Going to have this you know, blissful euphoric experience of
laughing versus processing sadness you didn't process when you're seven
years old, right, You don't know which direction is can
to go necessarily, and so it's hard to get addicted
to that because you're not chasing a high. It doesn't
give you a high, it gives you a profoundly variable experience.
(27:50):
So that's why magic mushrooms are really unique for cannabis.
There's some potential for it to be habit forming and addictive,
but much less than nicotine, less than alcohol. And so,
which is to say, like we normalize alcohol and nicotine
a lot, and we demonize cannabis when it's less toxic,
less harmful, and less addictive. But other of us would say, like,
(28:13):
there is some potential for addictiveness with cannabis, as people
often will use it to self medicating anxiety.
Speaker 6 (28:20):
And pain, and anything that you're.
Speaker 5 (28:22):
Using to self medicate some kind of suffering can be addictive.
Whether that's food, it could be exercise, it could be reading,
it could be learning, it could be anything could be addictive.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Workaholic, TikTok, social media. I get couch locked by Netflix.
I'm not worried about cannabis one thing that, but you're right,
because it's anything that's treating I'm a chronic back pain
suffer for having had four massive spinal surgeries, and anything
(28:54):
that you think you anything that treats just this the
they're just they're not getting to the root. It's just
treating the symptom. It's gonna become addictive, whether it's physically
addictive or actually addictive in your brain, it's gonna become
addictive because you're you're taking care of the symptom, and
(29:14):
when the pain comes back, that's that's unpleasant. So you
want more, and you want more, and you want more,
but you know, the ability to change the actual physiology
of your brain and work through a trauma, adapt and
heal and learn, learn to become adaptable. That's I mean, wow,
(29:38):
I mean the impact on the world cannabis is smoked.
Is smoking for mushrooms a form of consumption or not?
Speaker 5 (29:45):
Typically no, so mushrooms usually you would just eat them,
or people will make a tea out of them, that's
also quite popular, or.
Speaker 6 (29:54):
To spake them into chocolate or goodspake goods.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
So, but as you consume an oil, as we say,
like through your mouth, through your you know, digestive system,
and obviously cannabis can be consumed that way as well.
And I think you know for cannabis, yes, like smoking
and combusting plant material can be you know, can irritate
your lungs of course, and so, but there's a whole
variety of ways outside of that, whether it's bay pizing it,
(30:19):
which is probably the better way to consume the herb,
as well as edibles or tinctures or lozenges that go
under your tongue. There's a variety of ways of consuming
cannabis without smoking.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
It is there emerging research on combining uh A silo
cybin and cannabis or psychedelic mushrooms and cannabis. Do they
have opposite effects or can they be complementary?
Speaker 5 (30:45):
Right, It's an interesting question, and you know, the scientists
and me has to say, we don't know yet. There
those studies haven't been conducted. Obviously, a lot of people
out in the world do combine them in different ways,
and it's not like taking a stimulant and smoking cannabis.
It's kind of conflicting a little bit. I think cannabis
can potentially complement psychedelics if you use in the right
(31:08):
way at the right point in the experience to help
ground people, get them back in their body, relieve any anxiety,
and so on. But at the same time, smoking too much,
especially high teed sea strains while under a psychedelic, could
potentially lead to more anxiety and potentially even paranoia. And
(31:28):
so there are risks and it's kind of a sensitive thing.
To combine these two, or really to combine any drugs
that are psychoactive is always a bit of a risk
and something to be handled sensitively. But I think if
we zoom forward ten years from now or twenty years
and where this has been studied, I think there will
be a use case for help for cannabis helping regulate
(31:48):
people's anxiety and help them move through potentially difficult emotions
during a psychedelic experience.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
I hope we can have that emerging research. What are
the most promising findings in the work and research you're
doing in the lab and can you tell us a
little bit about the lab and about Robin for sure.
Speaker 5 (32:10):
So, as you've mentioned, I work at UCSF University of California,
San Francisco, and my supervisor is doctor Robin called Hard Harris,
and he's a major pioneer in the space, published over
the hundreds of papers, and he did the first ever
modern study using psilocybin mushrooms for depression and also the
first ever brain imaging studies of psilocybin and LSD and
(32:32):
DMT to other psychedelics. And so he's a world recognized
leader in the space. And I actually moved to San
Francisco to work with him directly. I've known him for
years and we're doing a variety of studies at the
cutting edge of how psilocybin affects the brain and in
particular one of our studies now we're looking at we're
trying to see how different people, different people's brains respond
(32:55):
in different ways, and how that we might use that
to predict whether they're going to get better or what
the long term effects for them is going to be.
For example, we want to say, by measuring your brain
now and seeing how it relaxes reacts to psilocybin jury
the experience, we know that we can we know whether
in six months or a year from now you're going
to do doing better or the same or potentially even worse.
(33:20):
And we're trying to create these models to do that
based on the brain.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Very very very exciting and if someone wanted to explore
the possibility of working with a neuroscientist or a psychiatrist,
are there many trained in this type of using magic
mushrooms in their in their psychiatric practices in the United States.
Speaker 6 (33:47):
Yeah, it's a good question. I think this to start there.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
I think it's important to recognize the legal status of
mushrooms right because they are federally illegal their Schedule one. However,
there are places where there are a number of a
growing number of cities where it's decriminalized, and so yeah,
so you can access it, you could be gifted it
and possess it and use it without being criminalized, without
(34:11):
being without it being illegal. And so that is possible,
and there are certain states leading the charge. Actually, so
Oregon has state approved psilocybin and service centers where you
can do legal psilocybin therapy.
Speaker 6 (34:26):
You could literally drive.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Into Oregon, flying there, whatever and do legal psilocybin therapy.
Speaker 6 (34:32):
Today people are doing it, and.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
Colorado is also they they've proved, proved approved a bill
for it as well. And so there in the middle
of that, and I've actually interfaced with a lot of
practitioners and organizations doing trainings for practitioners and I've supported
them in Colorado to help bring that in. So there
are places in the States to do that, and also
(34:54):
places like Jamaica, for example, Salo CIBN rushrooms were never
illegal in Jamaica and they're they're there's tons of retreat
centers people fly out to do psalocybin in Jamaica as well,
for example. So so to answer your first question whether
there are people trained in this, there are thousands and
thousands of people training in the States.
Speaker 6 (35:15):
You know, a lot of them do it.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Kind of you know, underground, and some of them do
it in these legal, sanctioned places where it's either decriminalized
or legal.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
In the States, Yeah, I don't know. I think our
brains as a society have to be expanded because in
mental health, if you look at the history we you know,
we're drilling holes in people's heads and trying to do
a lobotomy and that was okay legal. Are they still
(35:47):
they're still doing electroshock therapy in the United States? Is
that correct?
Speaker 5 (35:51):
Yeah, they do it as the last resort. Yeah, it's funny.
It's funny. There was a as a side story in Canada.
So I'm Canadian from Canada, and so in Canada, we
have a way through the government to give compassionate access
do psio cybin therapy. Actually, but in order to qualify
for it, you needn't have a depression that didn't respond
(36:15):
to at least two or three antidepressant medications, and in
most cases they ask you to try electroconvulsive therapy first,
which is absurd.
Speaker 6 (36:24):
It's like to be able to be.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Suitable to try this natural incurring mushroom in a therapeutic setting,
you have to be shocked first, and that has to
not work in order to get there.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
It's just absurd. It's quite ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
What and I don't look, some people only have certain
therapies available to them or maybe even benefit. But what
does electro shock therapy due to the brain? Can you
just explain that?
Speaker 6 (36:54):
You know what is really interesting?
Speaker 5 (36:55):
Actually it through stressing the brain and overstimulate it, it
actually boosts neuroplasticity.
Speaker 6 (37:03):
It's kind of wild.
Speaker 5 (37:04):
So there is reasons why it seems to work, not
beyond just you know, something barbaric and so interesting enough.
By zapping it, you're stimulating activity and it gets your
brain to release all sorts of things to comment that,
so it could potentially be anti inflammatory is the brain
response to it.
Speaker 6 (37:23):
But it also upregulates neuroplasticity.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
It shocks neurons into activating a lot and increasing their plasticity.
Speaker 6 (37:30):
So there is some sense to it, all.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Right, But you know, I, you know, I used to
go to chiropractors who would do a very aggressive crack.
But if there's a gentler modality, I try to seek
out the ones that kind of work the muscles and
(37:55):
then the spinal just kind of go back into you know,
Chandler modeidalities less invasive my goodness.
Speaker 5 (38:03):
Yeah, but okay, and ECT is not necessarily helping people
work through their trauma. You know, it's not working through
their emotions. You're just being zapped artificially into feeling better.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
I've heard it could help break habitual patterns, and one
of those could be smoking or improving your diet, drinking
less alcohol for pain management you mentioned, But do you
have any kind of real life examples or stories or
have you yourself experienced a positive benefit?
Speaker 6 (38:40):
Certainly, so we can start there.
Speaker 5 (38:42):
I suppose, like me many years ago as a teenager actually,
which you know, we can get into the whole adolescence thing.
But I think one of you know what it had
done for me is it allowed me to view myself
in my life in new way. So at the time,
I was, you know, younger, I was suffering from a
(39:04):
bit of bullying, I was didn't really know myself too well,
and myself esteem wasn't the highest. And psilocybin mushrooms allow
me to kind of see beyond that limited perspective I
was having, see my strengths and see.
Speaker 6 (39:18):
My life in a new light.
Speaker 5 (39:19):
It actually inspired me to become a neuroscientist. It inspired
me to pursue a path of knowledge and learning. Actually,
I know that does that doesn't happen to everybody necessarily
as a teenager doing these things, but it really inspired
the deep curiosity to me, curiosity and connection to a
love for learning.
Speaker 6 (39:37):
And so I made that impact for.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Me, for so for you, it was a gateway to
a doctoral post doctoral leading edge research, pioneering and maybe
having this fantastic disruptive effect on in a good way,
on helping improve people's livesppreciate your sharing that with me.
(40:01):
That to me is better than any case study. I mean,
you know, anecdotal evidence, we have a lot of it.
What do you as a scientist, how do you place
value on anecdotal evidence? What do you think?
Speaker 5 (40:14):
I think there's a lot of value in considering these
case studies. You know, I mentioned myself, but I've heard
countless people who overcame addictions or alcoholism or their depression,
or seen that in loved ones and so on and well,
these of course don't qualify as scientific evidence per se,
but they tell us that there's something there.
Speaker 6 (40:32):
It's not all you know, there's something to being covered
and understood, and so for me.
Speaker 5 (40:37):
These case studies provide hypotheses and ideas that then could
be studied in more controlled studies, and that's exactly.
Speaker 6 (40:44):
What we do.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
You can't deny it it you know, seeing is believing,
and you and I come to it. We're drawn to
these natural substances when Western medicine just didn't have a
good solution. And I mean, thank god you found it
as an adolescent and got what you needed. But how
(41:09):
wonderful if it could be normalized and just the standard
treatment that doctors weren't fearful to discuss. Does mindfulness that
affect your neuroplasticity?
Speaker 6 (41:25):
It's a good question. Very likely.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
I'm not sure if those studies necessarily have been conducted
because I can get into all the scientific details on why.
Speaker 6 (41:32):
It's a bit hard to study.
Speaker 5 (41:34):
But I think mindfulness really does dovetail well with both
cannabis and psychedelics, and it does certainly change your brain
over time and allow you to regulate your anxiety and
your emotions in a better way, and it's to be
a more grounded individual. I have a daily meditation in
mindness pectitioner, and I have been since I was like
(41:55):
nineteen years old, so I've always prioritized the daily practice.
Speaker 6 (42:00):
Definitely been transformed for me.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
You're a young man but an old soul, and uh,
don't go anywhere everybody unless you're driving, because when we
come back, we're gonna debunk outdated myths and stereotypes and
our nipping in the bud segment after this quick word
from our sponsor.
Speaker 7 (42:21):
Some say age is a state of mind until you
get those nagging pains in places you didn't even know existed.
Fifty is the new four twenty greenbeelife dot com. You're
leaving cannabis media brand, changing the way the world sees green.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Hey, welcome back. You're listening to just say No. I'm
your host Maria Calabres some discussing natural ways to unlock
our brain's potential with psychedelic neuroscientist doctor Mnesh gern On
KCAA Radio ten fifty AM one oh six point five FM.
So now we're gonna we're gonna nip it in the bud.
(43:10):
We're gonna break some stigmas and look forward. So cannabis
myths versus reality, psychedelic myths versus reality. So many myths
around in cannabis and psychedelic use. What are some of
the common misconceptions you've encountered, and, uh, can you debunk
(43:30):
them with what the research says.
Speaker 5 (43:33):
Certainly, So let's start with cannabis. So one of the
most common ones, and we were talking about this before
the show started as well, is the idea of cannabis
as a gateway drug.
Speaker 6 (43:42):
Now. I heard this growing up, a lot of people did.
Speaker 5 (43:45):
It's a part of basically drug war propaganda essentially, is
what it is. And there's no evidence in the epidemiological studies,
of large scale survey studies that that's the case. The
things that will cannabis to that get cannabis to lead
to other drug use are related to your social environment,
(44:06):
socioeconomic status, all these different factors, social factors, and cultural factors.
It's there's no evidence that cannabis use alone leads people
to try other drugs. Often it's a gateway to your
fridge or a gateway to you know, buying a bunch
of snacks from your local seven to eleven or something.
There's no evidence that people smoke cannabis and then automatically
(44:28):
go on to you know, try a heroin or cocaine
or anything. Those are radically different compounds, and I think
that's just a myth that should really does not exist anymore,
but people seem to still believe it, but there's no
evidence for it.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
A big part of that is because they're both classified
it legally as scheduled one.
Speaker 6 (44:48):
Yeah, which is absurd.
Speaker 5 (44:49):
And this is really funny, Maria, because you mentioned earlier
the US had a patent on the medicinal use of
cannabinoids going back to decades while at the same the
FDA was saying and dea it's schedule on it's no
potential for medical use and high abuse potential when they
had a patent showing that it's not that, you know,
(45:12):
it's absurd as in.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Door protected, and they weren't allowing the NFL and the
football players.
Speaker 5 (45:18):
My god, yeah, who could have really benefit that from
concussion recovery And that's the topic we didn't talk about,
but cbd is can be really helpful for you know,
recovery from a rain injury or a stroke for that matter.
There's studies on this, so it's it's quite terrible to
be it's like anti scientific, very politically and racially motivated.
(45:41):
We didn't get into the drug war, but there's all
sorts of nonsense around.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
That follow the money, but guys, don't, just I think
the first step. Don't have to go out and try
magic much rooms, or go into therapy, or even try cannabis,
but just try to I I applaud everyone who's listening
because you're you're converting n O to k n OW
(46:08):
and hopefully this knowledge will be useful because honestly, until
people say enough is enough and complain right, all politics
is local. You got to start on the local level
the constituents if they start demanding some better healthcare. Only
then will the politicians listen. And it's all politically motivated.
(46:32):
And oh, it's just bad medicine, bad medicine, and it's
it's it's it's it's frustrating, but and it's nobody's fault
to to have the perceptions you have. But this conversation
and just listening to it is an opportunity to let's uh,
let's all go for a jog afterwards and expand our brains. So, yeah,
(46:59):
dangerous time substance or powerful natural medicine sounds like it's
a powerful natural medicine and it's a gateway to greater
understanding greater empathy, greater adaptability. The planet's just getting more
and more people on it if we can't adapt and
to exercise some flexibility.
Speaker 5 (47:19):
So another one is that then this is a nuanced one,
but the idea that cannabis damages your brain. So I've
looked personally at a lot of research literature on how
brain imaging has shown differences in the brain as results
of cannabis use. And this is actually something that mean
and a friend of mine, he's a Stanford MD, where
(47:40):
can publish this in a paper?
Speaker 6 (47:41):
Actually hopeful in the next six months or so.
Speaker 5 (47:43):
We reviewed every study ever done on whether cannabis use
changes the structure of our brain, and we found is
that a lot of studies found increases size and certain
brain regions, a lot of studies found decreased size in
a lot of brain regions. When we bring them all together,
they can sell each other out. So what that means
(48:06):
is this, it's a mess of research that there's no
conclusions that can be drawn on actual structural changes that
last in your brain as a results of cannabis use.
And in terms of like what that means from brain damage,
it means there's no reliable effect and if we could
say anything, it's that heavy chronic use in adolescence likely
(48:28):
does cause potentially damage or developmental changes in the way,
you know, impairments in the way that the brain might
develop in.
Speaker 6 (48:36):
Certain ways, and that service factor.
Speaker 5 (48:38):
I would certainly not advocate for a heavy chronic use
in teenagers or early adults for that matter. It's all
about moderation, and the research does it that suggests that
using it at reasonable dosages, not every day, but in
a moderate way has minimal to know harmful effects. There's
no evidence that that damage the brain damages the brain
(48:59):
per se and in fact, as we've been saying, depending
on the strain, especially if it's a high CVD ratio strain,
it can be even good for the brain. It can
even be anti inflammatory and antioxidant, which are the two
things that basically mean neuroprotectant and protecting the health of
your neurons.
Speaker 6 (49:16):
And so it's a nuance topic.
Speaker 5 (49:19):
I think the idea that oh, you're gonna smoke cannabis
is going to damage your brain is not true. It
can only potentially be true in extreme circumstances for young
people teenagers smoking a lot. But it's a lot more
nuanced than that, and the research is very messy and.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Even gupherbid if you're younger and you're struck with a terrible,
terrible disease or like it's being you know, a god
forbid cancer, you have a pediatric case and you start
using Rick Simpson oil or high THC. Again, if it's
I mean, I don't know, I don't know what the
(49:56):
study show of the effect if someone has a medical
reason to take high strains. But even then, like it
would probably be microdosed and a tolerance would be built,
then it would be monitored, so it would come down
to responsible use.
Speaker 5 (50:12):
I would think, yeah, I think everything in moderation, right,
And something I want to add here actually important is
that if you look at the effects of alcohol in
the brain, the amount of brain damage that alcohol creates,
whether you're an adult or an adolescence, is far far
greater than cannabis because alcohol is directly neuro toxic.
Speaker 6 (50:33):
Cannabis isn't.
Speaker 5 (50:34):
Cannabis over time will create changes in your brain and
you know, in a more subtle way, whereas alcohol, which
every nineteen year old or whatever, nineteen twenty one year
old they're being drinking out there, they're partying with their friends.
They're doing all these things, which is terrible, and that
that the amount of lifelong brain damage that happens to
(50:54):
like ninety percent of youth through drink like that is,
you know, is massive, and it's it's like it's so
culturally sanctioned, yet we're demonizing cannabis use, which you know,
in order to even if you smoke chronic heavy cannabis
as a nineteen year old, it's not gonna be as
harmful as chronic binge drinking for your brain. And people
(51:16):
don't realize this because again there's all sorts of uh,
misinformation and stigma around cannabis.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
So Willie Nelson's ninety one years old, and I could say,
I don't know how many decades he's been smoking cannabis,
but many decades, and thank god it wasn't alcohol. I
don't know if he'd be here for his ninety first birthday,
let alone still doing concerts.
Speaker 5 (51:43):
Because alcohol also speeds up dementia and Alzheimer's and cognitive decline.
Alcohol does that in the way cannabis doesn't. Cannabis it
can even protect against that. CBDs used to help with
people with Alzheimer's. You're not going to prescribe somebody vodka
recover from Alzheimer's, you know, or raw or whiskey or
what have you that's gonna exacerbate it.
Speaker 6 (52:05):
And so these are important distinctions.
Speaker 5 (52:07):
There's so much cultural arbitrarity around it, and just yeah,
do you want to know something promising, Maria. Actually, there
are statistics amongst like gen Zers and the younger generation,
they're drinking less and less alcohol. And in fact, people
are you know, even going to parties and taking small
doses of magic mushrooms for example, like microdoses as they're called,
(52:30):
which is a tiny amount which you're not really it's
not really opponent experience, but it can uplift your mood,
it can might slightly change your experience, and like mildly intoxicating,
but definitely not like alcohol and not harmful for the
brain like alcohol. So I think amongst the young people
who were born let's say late nineties even two thousands,
(52:50):
they're drinking much less than any generations previously, and so
there's a downward trend there. So they're they're growing up
so and we like culturally we're growing up in certain cases,
and there's a lot of maturity around these things. And
awareness that people who you know might have grown up
and we're an adult in the eighties with all the
nonsense I was peddled back then. Just you know, it's
(53:12):
hard because that's what you were taught growing up, and
so it's hard to question it, and there's resistance and fear.
But I think we need to be open to the
facts and what it's real and what the science is
telling us. Otherwise we're closing ourselves off from a potentially
extremely beneficial, holistic resource for our health, right which is
cannabis and magic mushrooms to some extent, and.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
We're suffering as a society. We're in pain, we're just
not enjoying life when we could be just numbed out
getting medicated or drinking and then having the side effects
associated with that. There's a whole world out there to
discover and learn, but you know, and it's always balanced, right.
(54:01):
I think the hardest thing in parenting is setting healthy
limits and you know, not repressing the child, but you
want to protect them and to be able to let
go and let them explore and experiment. Bad things can happen,
So anthropologically we do we do for safety or try
(54:24):
to just say you know, no, don't go there or
you know, but I just I hope people will before
jumping to n try to no kayn ow. Just just
become curious about things. My husband's always telling me, I
don't know why. I mean, I have to take a
magic mushroom. Maybe I'll do that and we'll do another
(54:46):
episode and I'll tell you why. But no matter what
that guy says me jerk, I say no, no, I
don't know why. It's a defensiveness. It's a control thing, right,
but it's it's it's in there. And he gave me
a good exercise. He said, could you try just saying
maybe saying it's they'd jumping right to know. Whenever I
(55:09):
say something, how about yeah maybe and then think about it.
It's not easy for me to do that.
Speaker 6 (55:19):
Yeah. I mean, I love that you're sharing this, and
you know, it's like a.
Speaker 5 (55:23):
Real experience in a lot of cases for me, I
think a really important skill to cultivate is a skepticism
of your new jerk reactions and emotional responses. Right, It's like, oh,
I feel yeah, you know I feel this right now.
I feel very aversive. This feels wrong, it feels bad.
Why do I feel that way. What if I just
sat with it? What if I just breathed like, what
(55:45):
if I question that a little bit?
Speaker 6 (55:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
As we wrap up today's episode of Just Saying You Know,
I hope we've managed to shed some light on the
potential of cannabis and psychedelics psilocybin as viable natural medicines
when used responsible, Doctor Gern has guided us through the
science behind these substances, highlighting their unique role in mental
(56:11):
and brain health, particularly through harnessing neuroplasticity. Our brains have
a remarkable, remarkable ability to adapt and hal and heal,
to adapt and heal, So I mean, who can be
against that a gateway to being more adaptable and to healing. Hey,
(56:33):
sign me up. While these topics, though honestly they can
feel intimidating or even controversial, emerging research is revealing promising
benefits for those seeking natural alternatives to conventional treatments, or
when conventional treatments just don't have an answer. We've learned
(56:53):
that destigmatizing these medicines it's going to require ongoing education
and inform dialogue like today's episode, by understanding how these
substances interact with our bodies and minds we can move
beyond the fears toward a more open, compassionate perspective on
(57:13):
their potential, which is documented. So let's keep the conversation going.
I encourage everyone to visit our website Greenbelife dot com,
where you can find educational programming on GBLTV and in
our greenbey Life Learning Center. There's articles, guides, Stay curious,
continue educating yourselves, and approach these topics with as my
(57:40):
husband likes to tell me to how to approach him,
not with him, No, yeah, maybe you know, Let's approach
them with an open mind and respect for the science.
Before we sign off, I'd also like to offer you
to super valuable resources to further your understanding of so
applying the knowledge we've learned from today's episode. Visit doctor
(58:04):
Gern's website at mnshgern dot com. That's mensh m A
n ees h g I r n mneshgern dot com
to download a free guide Five Steps to Rewiring your
Brain with Psychedelics. This pdf offers practical insights into harnessing
(58:24):
the power of neuroplasticity and for those listeners or healthcare
providers wanting to take a deeper dive check out doctor
Gern's masterclash and ebook also at Meneshgern dot com Forward
Slash Masterclass. It's an excellent opportunity to learn from a
(58:46):
leading pioneering expert in this most critical field. Thank you
for joining us on Just Saying No today. Remember knowledge
is powers, specially when it comes to your health and wellbeing.
Stay curious, stay informed, and always keep learning until next time.
(59:06):
This is Maria Calbury's encouraging you to just say no
with a k n OW.
Speaker 4 (59:16):
Let me tell you.
Speaker 1 (59:18):
Just Say No is a green Bee Life presentation airing
live weekly on Friday afternoons from four to five pm
Pacific on KCA Radio and KCAA TV. Archived audio episodes
are on Greenbeelife, greenbelife dot com, iHeartRadio, Speaker, and most
(59:39):
third party major platforms. For archived videos, check them out
on GBLTV, on Greenbee Life YouTube, and Rumble. To follow
us our Instagram and Facebook is at just Say No Radio.
To apply to be a guest on the show or
(01:00:01):
for sponsorship and advertising opportunities, go to Greenbelife dot com.
Forward Slash
Hello again and welcome to Just Say No. I'm your
host Maria Calabrey's and you're listening to CACAA Radio ten
fifty AM one oh six point five FM. It's time
to grow on NO with some of the smartest minds
in the industry.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
By twenty twenty, Bank of America and Merrill Lynch estimate
that will grow to thirty five billion dollars, and many
experts believe it could eventually reach two hundred billion dollars
each and every year.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Stop, I can see.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Your your.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
I'm a better fie who has gonna be gone. Taking
me a while to get it, had to live and
cry to appreciate life and what you give his word,
when you hold a name, when you hold me so close,
someone better and under your skill want to leave the mine.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Today we're taking on a topic that's got a lot
of people talking and maybe even a bit nervous. Cannabis
and psychedelics. Imagine if something as simple as a herb
or a mushroom career shape our understanding of mental health. Well,
(01:43):
if you're feeling unsure, you're not alone. And today's guest
is here to clear up some of the myths and
bring us closer to the science behind these powerful substances
that are not only for the adventurous but hold a
real true for improving brain health and enhancing general wellbeing.
(02:04):
I'm thrilled to introduce doctor Menash Gern. Mnash is a
neuroscientist who's earned his PhD from McGill University. Doctor Menash's
research focuses on understanding the effects of cannabis, but even
in more depth psychedelics like psilocybin on the brain and
(02:26):
how they can support our mental health. Mnash brings a
wealth of knowledge from his groundbreaking work at UCSF in
Robin kart Hart Harris's lab, leading the exploration on how
psychedelics impact brain connectivity and neuroplasticity. His expertise bridges psychology, philosophy,
(02:49):
and neuroscience, which enables him to offer a really broad
view on how these natural substances might help us understand
our minds and new ways and we can apply this
knowledge toward daily lives to improve them and if you'd
like to learn more at home. Doctor Gern also shares
his research as the Psychedelic Scientist on YouTube, where he
(03:13):
breaks down the latest findings in an easy to digest way.
Whether you're a bit curious or cautiously skeptical. We've got
an incredible guest and an exciting discussion lined up. So
sit back, relax, and let's get smarter together and just
say no. Welcome, doctor Gern. Thank you so much for
(03:37):
joining us today. I'd like you briefly to introduce yourself
and tell us a little bit about Robin Carhart Harris's
lab and your role in the research being done.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
Yeah, thank you so much for the introduction, Maria, and
I'm really excited to chat with you today. These really
are some really important and popular topics, and people are
increasingly being asked about psychedelics and cannabis and the stigma
is starting to be reduced, but there's still a lot
of work to do, a lot of stuff to clear up. Yes,
as you mentioned, I work at UCSF currently as a neuroscientist,
(04:10):
and what we primarily do is brain imaging research on
psychedelics leuch as psilocybin, where psilocybin is the molecule in
so called magic mushrooms that has profound effects, and so
what we study is how that works on the brain
and how that might relate to changes in things like
well being and psychological functioning. So what many people might
(04:32):
not know is that psilocybin is used very commonly to
treat depression and research studies with a lot of promise.
And it's also in a variety of ways we'll get
into actually good for your brain and healthy in certain
ways and helping it grow and regenerate and be more
flexible over time.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Just let's really start at psychedelics one oh one, cannabis,
magic mushrooms. Let's start magic mushrooms. So how would a
magic bush, for instance, as a fungui differ from one
I put in my salad.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
Yeah, so the fungi kingdom is a massive one, and
there's a huge variety of different types of fungi, and
in particular, there's around two hundred types of fungi that
contain psilocybin, and so there's a huge variety. And so
the main difference is that they contain this little molecule
and a couple of other molecules. Other than that, you
might have walked past some psilocybin containing mushrooms on a
(05:28):
hike or in a forest, as they do grow in
a variety of places naturally across the world, and they
are actually quite common, and just by the naked eye,
it would be indistinguishable from any other mushroom growing And
it just happens to be the case. If you consume these,
they have a profound effect on your experience.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
And psilocybin is just one of many compounds.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
Correct, Yeah, so there's several, but psilocybin is the main
one that elicits the psychedelic effects, as we'd say.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
And I think that's very interesting in parallel when it
comes to cannabis, because many people think, and it's nobody's fault,
it's because of the prohibition. There's been a huge amount
of misinformation or no information. So what most people heard
of was CBD or THC, and most people think it's
(06:20):
just THC and high. Now CBD is having its day,
but there's over one hundred and fifty compounds and cannabis too,
so and all of these have the potential for medicinal benefit.
So your research is so critical. So cannabis not a mushroom. Cannabis,
(06:42):
i'm told, is a vegetable and a herb. Can you
verify that and tell us a little bit about cannabis
compared to fung gui?
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Certainly, I mean we can call cannabis a plant herb,
and it's it's a different class than bungi. Obviously, it's
not a mushroom, but similar in that it's a natural
occurring organism that and it's also similar to magic mushrooms
actually in the fact that it's been used for hundreds,
if not thousands of years in different cultures across the world.
(07:11):
And it's quite interesting that we were very idiosyncratic in
the modern world as defining these compounds as drugs to
be outlawed, because cannabis as well as magic mushrooms have
been revered as almost as sacraments, as inducing these spiritual
and healing experiences that should be used in a ritual
kind of way, and so they've been kind of revered
(07:34):
as these parts of the natural world as a gift
to us that.
Speaker 6 (07:37):
We can use for our own benefit.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
And so it's really interesting we have this view of
them as these dangerous drugs in the modern context.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Doctor garn What exactly is neuroplasticity.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
It's a fascinating topic that's actually becoming more and more
of interest in the mental health fields as well as neuroscience.
So neuroplasticity refers to the brain's ability to change itself,
to rewire connections, and to change itself in response to experience,
in response to injuries. It allows us to learn it's
(08:12):
involved in a variety of processes. And the old dogma,
you know, maybe twenty years ago, was that once we're
an adult, our brains don't change. They're not plastic anymore.
We're set in our ways. That's just how we are.
And now we know from decades of research that it's
not true.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
So if my husband, if my husband tells me stop
trying to teach an old dog new tricks, No, don't
let them get off on that.
Speaker 5 (08:38):
Yeah, I would not let people get away with that.
I think that's just an excuse that people like to use.
But I think the research has told us time and
time again that the brain has this remarkable ability to change,
and that might be less when we're older, but it's
not zero. It's still there, and if you believe it's there,
you can create the change. If you believe it's impossible,
(08:59):
you're going to create up for yourself.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Wow wow. And it might be a little bit more
challenging when you're older. But is that where these substances
can help facilitate it.
Speaker 6 (09:13):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
I think particularly magic mushrooms have been highlighted for being
potent to neuroplastis the enhancers, and that's one of the
reasons why they're finding these studies with depression, that people
will take psilocybin mushrooms for just pure psilocybin into therapeutic
setting with a therapist one to three d times, let's say,
over a month or so, and six months later, a
(09:36):
month later, their curative a depression that they had for
twenty plus years, which is insane, but it's only possible
because of these neuroplastic exchanges in the brain, which are
relatively unpre precedented in the context of psychiatry.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Now, I know people who have suffered in chronic depression,
and going back you talk twenty years, but going back
even further, I know people have been on psychopharmacologic medicines
before the Ssriyes, right, there was a problem with valuum
and then that became addictive, and then there was I
(10:11):
think Eleville. Those were dating back and then the ssriyes
came out, But people are on those forever. And can
you talk a little bit about the side effects associate
it with. I mean a lot of people who need
to be on medication, shy away from it because right
because of the side effects, and then there's left to suffer.
(10:34):
Could you speak a little bit to.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
That, certainly, I mean there's definitely in place for these
standard pharmaceuticals. Standard antidepressants helped many people cope and live
lives that they wouldn't be able to live otherwise. But
as you said, they come with side effects, they come
with the trade off. And so one of the most
commonly prescribed classic drugs are SSRIs, so selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors,
(10:59):
things like laxapro or prozac.
Speaker 6 (11:03):
People may have heard of either of those.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
Two calming prescribe drugs and these those are both antidepressants,
and they basically change your brain chemistry to help you
feel a bit better, but it comes at the cost
of lessening your capacity for positive emotions as well.
Speaker 6 (11:19):
They kind of dull you emotionally.
Speaker 5 (11:21):
They can lead to wake gain, They kill people's sex drive,
and can lead to fatigue and all sorts of things.
And so you're the trade off is you're less depressed,
but you're less anything else.
Speaker 6 (11:36):
Right, It's a dulling out.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
And you're you're expect it to take it every single day,
and definitely otherwise you're gonna get worse again.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Can you tell us what a drink does to your brain?
It's not calming your nerves, right, it's killing. It's dulling it.
It's killing the brain sells it's I don't. I'm making
the analogy to the antidepressants, where it's a dulling of facts.
And when I talk to people who do psilocybin or
(12:06):
consume cannabis, they say it actually relieves the anxiety and
the depression to help them engage, not become the stoner,
stereotypical couchlock. Could you speak a little bit? Is there
truth to that? Are their studies? Is that your experience?
Speaker 6 (12:23):
I think that's a really good point to make.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
The thing the important distinguishing characteristic of alcohol versus cannabis
and magic mushrooms is that alcohol is toxic for your brain.
Cannabis is not. Magic mushrooms are not. So alcohol is
very littlely neurotoxic in a way that these other substances
are not. And it's interesting that alcohol is culturally sanctioned
(12:46):
while these are demonized.
Speaker 6 (12:47):
But that's a whole other topic.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
But what you're alluding to was how alcohol will dull
and suppress our emotions and as opposed to giving us
an opportunity to actually face them and work through them.
And how alcohol works in the brain is it primarily
activates particular brain receptors, which are the brain receptors that
(13:10):
reduce the activity of our brain cells. And so literally
when you take you drink a lot of alcohol, it's
suppressing the activity of different brain cells. And this is
also why people feel a bit more loose and disinhibited.
Our usual kind of self consciousness and our ability to
regulate ourselves and our impulses is reduced because literally those
(13:31):
brain cells are being turned down. And same with our
areas related to emotions like sadness or fear, those are
also tamped down, which perhaps can be useful to socialize
and talk to that attractive person you're a nervous to
talk to, but over time it's you're really not making
real growth and progress as an individual. You're using it
as this kind of crutch or way to avoid your feelings.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
And then that's where the addictive effect comes and you
need it and you rely on it, whereas you're not
having the correct of emotional experience. The difference if you're
consuming Uh, certain cannabinoids and terpenes or magic mushrooms, your
brain is actually changing and then you experience that. How
(14:23):
would that go if if I were to enter into
therapy and I had some type of post traumatic stress
and I had a face of fear that I've just
been dampening down go away with alcohol and pharma pharmacological drugs,
how would what would that therapy look like?
Speaker 5 (14:43):
Yeah, it's a It's really important emphasize that when we're
talking about magic mushrooms and psychedelics in the context of
mental health, it's in a very structured way. It's not
the same as just taking it with your friends and
going to a party or a festival or or what
have you.
Speaker 6 (14:58):
It's a very structured process.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Sess Where how it begins is you'll meet your therapist
that's guiding you through it, and they're trained professional who
knows specifically about psychedelic experiences and how to guide people
through them. And if you've passed the screening.
Speaker 6 (15:16):
We usually screen.
Speaker 5 (15:17):
People out with a family or personal history of schizophrenia
or bipolar disorder, for example. There is just a bit
more risk there to screen those people out. We bring
them in, we ask them to share about their lives,
what they're going through, what they're looking to get out
of the experience, and tell them how to best navigate
the experience in a safe way. And then the actual
(15:38):
drug session is done in a very controlled way where
you're in this comfortable room. You're asked to wear eye
shades and listen to music on the playlist and you
literally just go internal into your experience and explore what
comes up, and naturally, memories will come up that you've
long forgotten. You might start sobbing a little bit from
emotions from years ago that you forgot, you didn't process,
(16:01):
and you're guided through this very vulnerable and raw experience
of you know, reliving memories, processing emotions, having new perspectives
on your life. And then after that powerful experience, you're
supported in, Okay, how do we make sense of this?
Speaker 6 (16:16):
How can we.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
Ground that into your life and the changes you want
to make. And so that's the process that magic mushrooms
are usually given in to treat depression or anxiety or
these other conditions.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
And what actually happens to your brain visa viva neuroplasticity,
what's actually happening.
Speaker 6 (16:33):
Yeah, So it's really interesting.
Speaker 5 (16:34):
So during like experientially psychologically you're going through all these
insights and reliving and so on and processing emotions. But
at the same time as that's happening, our brain is
becoming more plastic, So literally it's allowing your brain cells
to grow new connections that then you can encode what
you're experience in the last what you're experiencing in the
lasting way.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Wow, these are neural pathways.
Speaker 6 (17:00):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Your neurons are physically growing, they're physically grow extensions temporarily,
but then you can make them last.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
The belief used to be right the brain couldn't change
or heal. When did in research time was this discovery made?
Speaker 5 (17:18):
Yeah, I think broadly over the past twenty years is
slowly being growing in recognition that it's possible. But I
think with psychondalics in the last ten years it's shown like, wow,
we can really boost this in a reliable way, in
a way that's potent and that last, and that could
be used for therapy. That's relatively recent in the past decade,
that's really taken off.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
The realization that the brain has a remarkable ability to
actually adapt. You got to get past that trauma, so
you have to be able to tolerate it, adapt and
then heal. I mean, wow, And isn't it a little paradoxical,
(17:58):
Like the brain doesn't necessarily it's not necessarily wired over
time to adapt. It's more it likes structure, it likes
it likes certainty, not so much uncertainty. So that's how
our pathways become cemented or habitual patterns happen.
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Yes, I love that you brought this up, because the
brain really is in the business of trying to make
our lives as automated and as easy as possible. Right,
so it's get stuck in these patterns which it thinks, Oh,
it makes living easier because it makes you certain, I'm
going to enter it into this environment, I'm gonna be needed,
needed to act in this way. And this is what works.
(18:41):
This is how I am, this is how the world is.
But what's interesting, and there's there's a lot more research
emerging these days suggesting that the more rigid we are
in our ways, the worst our mental health. The worst
are resilience, right, the worst are adaptability. And so I
think the corner stone of mental health and emotional resilience
(19:02):
is flexibility. Flexibility in our thoughts, in who we think
we are and what we believe about the world, and
always being open to changing and growing. I mean, that's
one of the biggest markers of mental health and flourishing overall.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
How do we have innovation, How do we get past traumas?
How do we even just have conversations if we're on
two different sides? I mean, to be able to have
a conversation with you. There's many people I know who
will not even listen to me. They're going to just
say no and no, oh Maria, cannabis psychedelic, what are
(19:38):
you crazy? LSD people jumping out and well, okay, well
maybe you could use some little flexibility and expand your brain.
There's a time and place for structure. But is that
why they'll say? For older people, it's very important to
get comfortable with the uncomfortable, learn a new language, pick
(20:02):
up an instrument. Is that where that comes in for
older people certainly?
Speaker 5 (20:08):
And those things you just mentioned help boost neuroplasticity, So
to keep your brain plastic and nimble, you know, one
of some of the most important things you can do
are seek out new experiences, learn new skills, learn language,
learn an instrument. It's never too late Also, one of
the biggest boosters of neuroplasticity is endurance exercise, whether that's swimming, cycling, jogging,
(20:32):
even brisk walks during that for half an hour, let's say,
three to four times a week is really it would
make wonders for people's brain health and mental health.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
In terms of cannabis, can you tell us a little
bit of heard like the mother of all cannabinoids now
is being coined CBG, and I know that there see
the prohibition limits research, but it's exciting. With more acceptance
and with more legalization, you could speak to whether the
barriers of research are coming down, and if you could
(21:05):
tell me a little bit about the research on CBG
or how certain cannabinoids affect the brain.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
Certainly, and so cannabis, as you were saying earlier, has
a whole variety of different compounds within it. It's not
just TC, which is what we usually associate it with
because that's what gives the typical high we associate with cannabis.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
And not to interrupt you, maybe you could just explain
the difference as well THC before it is heated up,
it's actually in its raw form THCA.
Speaker 6 (21:37):
Is that correct, right? It is correct.
Speaker 5 (21:40):
Yeh TCA when warmed up, when heat it turns into GC.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yes, which has so even only THC has the psychotropic effect.
Speaker 6 (21:52):
Yeah, certainly.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
And the three cannabinoids, as are called cannabinoids, are just
cannabis molecules, molecules that have occur on the canvas plant.
The most popular ones that are studied and looked at
for their benefits and effects are THHC. We just mentioned CBD,
and then CBG, which you also briefly mentioned, and so
I guess walk.
Speaker 6 (22:13):
Through each of these really briefly.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
So THHC is the compound you know that makes people high,
it makes people stoned. That's what people associate with cannabis.
And this has the typical effects, and in addition to that,
it can also it's often obviously in many people notice
used to believe anxiety. In lower doses, particularly, it can
(22:34):
really calm people's anxiety and also help with things like
chronic pain.
Speaker 6 (22:39):
And that's THC.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
But then also CBD is also potently reduced as anxiety
and has been found in studies to do that. Studies
have also found that it could be antidepressant, and not
only that, it's also anti inflammatory. So people even with
arthritis and different inflammatory conditions are experiencing relief from cb
not to mention also its effects for reducing epileptic seizures,
(23:05):
so reducing seizures for people with epilepsy, and it's actually
FDA approved for that. It is a compound CBD based
drug that does that. So CBD has no psychological effects
acutely like it doesn't make you high, but behind the
scenes of our biology, through our endocannabinoid system, which I
could talk about, is actually has all these different health benefits.
(23:27):
And then the last one is CBG, which is a
kind of simpler molecule than CBD or cheats and actually
is you know, can be considered a precurstro of them.
It can turn into them with different steps, and that's
also very much involved in reducing inflammation. It modulates our
immune system and it also relieves oxidative stress, meaning it's
(23:51):
an antioxidant, which again it means it clears up cellular damage.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
It's healthy for ourselves as well throughout our bodies.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Now, cannabis has a rougher road. I think you can
answer this in terms of research.
Speaker 6 (24:07):
Yes, certainly.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
Yeah, there's a lot more research on magic mushrooms than
cannabis these days.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
There are actual peer reviewed studies for cannabis on those indications,
which is that correct?
Speaker 5 (24:21):
Yes, certainly these are the most rigorous, randomalized, controlled, charles
esteemed institutions with cannabis and for psychedelics.
Speaker 6 (24:28):
For that matter.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Great and on our show page will list references for
our listeners. Yes, for anti seizures epi dialects. CBD is
used in EPI dialects pharmaceutical drug, which that'll be a
whole other episode. Has caused quite confusion because once the
FDA approved it as an ingredient and a prescription drug,
(24:52):
they didn't speak to it as an ingredient in food
or in supplements, which is holding things up when it
comes to food and supplements. Do you believe even though
CBD is an ingredient in a pharmaceutical drug such as
epidialects for seizures, do you believe there is an OTC
(25:13):
and over the counter use for I mean, yes, right,
it should be available when tinctures, gummies, topicals one hundred.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
I think they're trying to monopolize by making it into
a psychiatric drug that they can profit off of in
patent and it's an ip PLA. It's you know, it's really
just a psychiatry pharmaceutical play, that's what that is.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
I think CBDs should be widely available in a variety
of different forms.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
It's non psychoactive, it's not addictive, it's not harmful outright
for the you know, brain or body, if anything, is
really beneficial for it when used in the reasonable doses.
Speaker 6 (25:52):
And so there's no reason why it should be outlowed
the way it should be. This doesn't make any scientific sense.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Follow the money. I mean, we go all the way
back to the nineteen thirty seven Marijuana Tax Act, before
they probably even knew there was an endocannabinoid system, and
back when Eli Lilly was actually growing marijuana, and before
we turned to Pompey. But that's a whole other episode
on we'll get on talk about opioids. But and even
(26:22):
the US government held the patent on CBD from around
right just recently expired, and the indication was as a neuroprotectant.
So there's a lot of misinformation out there, and there's
a lot of conversation for us to spark. But you know,
(26:45):
so many people justifiably are concerned about potential risks, you
know of cannabis and on psychedelics, and they talk about
maybe you could just speak to are they addictive?
Speaker 5 (27:03):
Right, so we could start there. Yeah, for we could
start with magic mushrooms really quick. The answer is no,
there's no evidence that they create physical dependence or psychological
dependence in nine to nine percent of cases. And just
the nature of the way the drug works is you
can't really take it twice in a week in a
high dose because you could get tolerance really fast. And
(27:24):
also the effects are so intense and somewhat unpredictable.
Speaker 6 (27:28):
You don't know if you're.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Going to have this you know, blissful euphoric experience of
laughing versus processing sadness you didn't process when you're seven
years old, right, You don't know which direction is can
to go necessarily, and so it's hard to get addicted
to that because you're not chasing a high. It doesn't
give you a high, it gives you a profoundly variable experience.
(27:50):
So that's why magic mushrooms are really unique for cannabis.
There's some potential for it to be habit forming and addictive,
but much less than nicotine, less than alcohol. And so,
which is to say, like we normalize alcohol and nicotine
a lot, and we demonize cannabis when it's less toxic,
less harmful, and less addictive. But other of us would say, like,
(28:13):
there is some potential for addictiveness with cannabis, as people
often will use it to self medicating anxiety.
Speaker 6 (28:20):
And pain, and anything that you're.
Speaker 5 (28:22):
Using to self medicate some kind of suffering can be addictive.
Whether that's food, it could be exercise, it could be reading,
it could be learning, it could be anything could be addictive.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Workaholic, TikTok, social media. I get couch locked by Netflix.
I'm not worried about cannabis one thing that, but you're right,
because it's anything that's treating I'm a chronic back pain
suffer for having had four massive spinal surgeries, and anything
(28:54):
that you think you anything that treats just this the
they're just they're not getting to the root. It's just
treating the symptom. It's gonna become addictive, whether it's physically
addictive or actually addictive in your brain, it's gonna become
addictive because you're you're taking care of the symptom, and
(29:14):
when the pain comes back, that's that's unpleasant. So you
want more, and you want more, and you want more,
but you know, the ability to change the actual physiology
of your brain and work through a trauma, adapt and
heal and learn, learn to become adaptable. That's I mean, wow,
(29:38):
I mean the impact on the world cannabis is smoked.
Is smoking for mushrooms a form of consumption or not?
Speaker 5 (29:45):
Typically no, so mushrooms usually you would just eat them,
or people will make a tea out of them, that's
also quite popular, or.
Speaker 6 (29:54):
To spake them into chocolate or goodspake goods.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
So, but as you consume an oil, as we say,
like through your mouth, through your you know, digestive system,
and obviously cannabis can be consumed that way as well.
And I think you know for cannabis, yes, like smoking
and combusting plant material can be you know, can irritate
your lungs of course, and so, but there's a whole
variety of ways outside of that, whether it's bay pizing it,
(30:19):
which is probably the better way to consume the herb,
as well as edibles or tinctures or lozenges that go
under your tongue. There's a variety of ways of consuming
cannabis without smoking.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
It is there emerging research on combining uh A silo
cybin and cannabis or psychedelic mushrooms and cannabis. Do they
have opposite effects or can they be complementary?
Speaker 5 (30:45):
Right, It's an interesting question, and you know, the scientists
and me has to say, we don't know yet. There
those studies haven't been conducted. Obviously, a lot of people
out in the world do combine them in different ways,
and it's not like taking a stimulant and smoking cannabis.
It's kind of conflicting a little bit. I think cannabis
can potentially complement psychedelics if you use in the right
(31:08):
way at the right point in the experience to help
ground people, get them back in their body, relieve any anxiety,
and so on. But at the same time, smoking too much,
especially high teed sea strains while under a psychedelic, could
potentially lead to more anxiety and potentially even paranoia. And
(31:28):
so there are risks and it's kind of a sensitive thing.
To combine these two, or really to combine any drugs
that are psychoactive is always a bit of a risk
and something to be handled sensitively. But I think if
we zoom forward ten years from now or twenty years
and where this has been studied, I think there will
be a use case for help for cannabis helping regulate
(31:48):
people's anxiety and help them move through potentially difficult emotions
during a psychedelic experience.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
I hope we can have that emerging research. What are
the most promising findings in the work and research you're
doing in the lab and can you tell us a
little bit about the lab and about Robin for sure.
Speaker 5 (32:10):
So, as you've mentioned, I work at UCSF University of California,
San Francisco, and my supervisor is doctor Robin called Hard Harris,
and he's a major pioneer in the space, published over
the hundreds of papers, and he did the first ever
modern study using psilocybin mushrooms for depression and also the
first ever brain imaging studies of psilocybin and LSD and
(32:32):
DMT to other psychedelics. And so he's a world recognized
leader in the space. And I actually moved to San
Francisco to work with him directly. I've known him for
years and we're doing a variety of studies at the
cutting edge of how psilocybin affects the brain and in
particular one of our studies now we're looking at we're
trying to see how different people, different people's brains respond
(32:55):
in different ways, and how that we might use that
to predict whether they're going to get better or what
the long term effects for them is going to be.
For example, we want to say, by measuring your brain
now and seeing how it relaxes reacts to psilocybin jury
the experience, we know that we can we know whether
in six months or a year from now you're going
to do doing better or the same or potentially even worse.
(33:20):
And we're trying to create these models to do that
based on the brain.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Very very very exciting and if someone wanted to explore
the possibility of working with a neuroscientist or a psychiatrist,
are there many trained in this type of using magic
mushrooms in their in their psychiatric practices in the United States.
Speaker 6 (33:47):
Yeah, it's a good question. I think this to start there.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
I think it's important to recognize the legal status of
mushrooms right because they are federally illegal their Schedule one. However,
there are places where there are a number of a
growing number of cities where it's decriminalized, and so yeah,
so you can access it, you could be gifted it
and possess it and use it without being criminalized, without
(34:11):
being without it being illegal. And so that is possible,
and there are certain states leading the charge. Actually, so
Oregon has state approved psilocybin and service centers where you
can do legal psilocybin therapy.
Speaker 6 (34:26):
You could literally drive.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Into Oregon, flying there, whatever and do legal psilocybin therapy.
Speaker 6 (34:32):
Today people are doing it, and.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
Colorado is also they they've proved, proved approved a bill
for it as well. And so there in the middle
of that, and I've actually interfaced with a lot of
practitioners and organizations doing trainings for practitioners and I've supported
them in Colorado to help bring that in. So there
are places in the States to do that, and also
(34:54):
places like Jamaica, for example, Salo CIBN rushrooms were never
illegal in Jamaica and they're they're there's tons of retreat
centers people fly out to do psalocybin in Jamaica as well,
for example. So so to answer your first question whether
there are people trained in this, there are thousands and
thousands of people training in the States.
Speaker 6 (35:15):
You know, a lot of them do it.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Kind of you know, underground, and some of them do
it in these legal, sanctioned places where it's either decriminalized
or legal.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
In the States, Yeah, I don't know. I think our
brains as a society have to be expanded because in
mental health, if you look at the history we you know,
we're drilling holes in people's heads and trying to do
a lobotomy and that was okay legal. Are they still
(35:47):
they're still doing electroshock therapy in the United States? Is
that correct?
Speaker 5 (35:51):
Yeah, they do it as the last resort. Yeah, it's funny.
It's funny. There was a as a side story in Canada.
So I'm Canadian from Canada, and so in Canada, we
have a way through the government to give compassionate access
do psio cybin therapy. Actually, but in order to qualify
for it, you needn't have a depression that didn't respond
(36:15):
to at least two or three antidepressant medications, and in
most cases they ask you to try electroconvulsive therapy first,
which is absurd.
Speaker 6 (36:24):
It's like to be able to be.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Suitable to try this natural incurring mushroom in a therapeutic setting,
you have to be shocked first, and that has to
not work in order to get there.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
It's just absurd. It's quite ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
What and I don't look, some people only have certain
therapies available to them or maybe even benefit. But what
does electro shock therapy due to the brain? Can you
just explain that?
Speaker 6 (36:54):
You know what is really interesting?
Speaker 5 (36:55):
Actually it through stressing the brain and overstimulate it, it
actually boosts neuroplasticity.
Speaker 6 (37:03):
It's kind of wild.
Speaker 5 (37:04):
So there is reasons why it seems to work, not
beyond just you know, something barbaric and so interesting enough.
By zapping it, you're stimulating activity and it gets your
brain to release all sorts of things to comment that,
so it could potentially be anti inflammatory is the brain
response to it.
Speaker 6 (37:23):
But it also upregulates neuroplasticity.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
It shocks neurons into activating a lot and increasing their plasticity.
Speaker 6 (37:30):
So there is some sense to it, all.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Right, But you know, I, you know, I used to
go to chiropractors who would do a very aggressive crack.
But if there's a gentler modality, I try to seek
out the ones that kind of work the muscles and
(37:55):
then the spinal just kind of go back into you know,
Chandler modeidalities less invasive my goodness.
Speaker 5 (38:03):
Yeah, but okay, and ECT is not necessarily helping people
work through their trauma. You know, it's not working through
their emotions. You're just being zapped artificially into feeling better.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
I've heard it could help break habitual patterns, and one
of those could be smoking or improving your diet, drinking
less alcohol for pain management you mentioned, But do you
have any kind of real life examples or stories or
have you yourself experienced a positive benefit?
Speaker 6 (38:40):
Certainly, so we can start there.
Speaker 5 (38:42):
I suppose, like me many years ago as a teenager actually,
which you know, we can get into the whole adolescence thing.
But I think one of you know what it had
done for me is it allowed me to view myself
in my life in new way. So at the time,
I was, you know, younger, I was suffering from a
(39:04):
bit of bullying, I was didn't really know myself too well,
and myself esteem wasn't the highest. And psilocybin mushrooms allow
me to kind of see beyond that limited perspective I
was having, see my strengths and see.
Speaker 6 (39:18):
My life in a new light.
Speaker 5 (39:19):
It actually inspired me to become a neuroscientist. It inspired
me to pursue a path of knowledge and learning. Actually,
I know that does that doesn't happen to everybody necessarily
as a teenager doing these things, but it really inspired
the deep curiosity to me, curiosity and connection to a
love for learning.
Speaker 6 (39:37):
And so I made that impact for.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Me, for so for you, it was a gateway to
a doctoral post doctoral leading edge research, pioneering and maybe
having this fantastic disruptive effect on in a good way,
on helping improve people's livesppreciate your sharing that with me.
(40:01):
That to me is better than any case study. I mean,
you know, anecdotal evidence, we have a lot of it.
What do you as a scientist, how do you place
value on anecdotal evidence? What do you think?
Speaker 5 (40:14):
I think there's a lot of value in considering these
case studies. You know, I mentioned myself, but I've heard
countless people who overcame addictions or alcoholism or their depression,
or seen that in loved ones and so on and well,
these of course don't qualify as scientific evidence per se,
but they tell us that there's something there.
Speaker 6 (40:32):
It's not all you know, there's something to being covered
and understood, and so for me.
Speaker 5 (40:37):
These case studies provide hypotheses and ideas that then could
be studied in more controlled studies, and that's exactly.
Speaker 6 (40:44):
What we do.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
You can't deny it it you know, seeing is believing,
and you and I come to it. We're drawn to
these natural substances when Western medicine just didn't have a
good solution. And I mean, thank god you found it
as an adolescent and got what you needed. But how
(41:09):
wonderful if it could be normalized and just the standard
treatment that doctors weren't fearful to discuss. Does mindfulness that
affect your neuroplasticity?
Speaker 6 (41:25):
It's a good question. Very likely.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
I'm not sure if those studies necessarily have been conducted
because I can get into all the scientific details on why.
Speaker 6 (41:32):
It's a bit hard to study.
Speaker 5 (41:34):
But I think mindfulness really does dovetail well with both
cannabis and psychedelics, and it does certainly change your brain
over time and allow you to regulate your anxiety and
your emotions in a better way, and it's to be
a more grounded individual. I have a daily meditation in
mindness pectitioner, and I have been since I was like
(41:55):
nineteen years old, so I've always prioritized the daily practice.
Speaker 6 (42:00):
Definitely been transformed for me.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
You're a young man but an old soul, and uh,
don't go anywhere everybody unless you're driving, because when we
come back, we're gonna debunk outdated myths and stereotypes and
our nipping in the bud segment after this quick word
from our sponsor.
Speaker 7 (42:21):
Some say age is a state of mind until you
get those nagging pains in places you didn't even know existed.
Fifty is the new four twenty greenbeelife dot com. You're
leaving cannabis media brand, changing the way the world sees green.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Hey, welcome back. You're listening to just say No. I'm
your host Maria Calabres some discussing natural ways to unlock
our brain's potential with psychedelic neuroscientist doctor Mnesh gern On
KCAA Radio ten fifty AM one oh six point five FM.
So now we're gonna we're gonna nip it in the bud.
(43:10):
We're gonna break some stigmas and look forward. So cannabis
myths versus reality, psychedelic myths versus reality. So many myths
around in cannabis and psychedelic use. What are some of
the common misconceptions you've encountered, and, uh, can you debunk
(43:30):
them with what the research says.
Speaker 5 (43:33):
Certainly, So let's start with cannabis. So one of the
most common ones, and we were talking about this before
the show started as well, is the idea of cannabis
as a gateway drug.
Speaker 6 (43:42):
Now. I heard this growing up, a lot of people did.
Speaker 5 (43:45):
It's a part of basically drug war propaganda essentially, is
what it is. And there's no evidence in the epidemiological studies,
of large scale survey studies that that's the case. The
things that will cannabis to that get cannabis to lead
to other drug use are related to your social environment,
(44:06):
socioeconomic status, all these different factors, social factors, and cultural factors.
It's there's no evidence that cannabis use alone leads people
to try other drugs. Often it's a gateway to your
fridge or a gateway to you know, buying a bunch
of snacks from your local seven to eleven or something.
There's no evidence that people smoke cannabis and then automatically
(44:28):
go on to you know, try a heroin or cocaine
or anything. Those are radically different compounds, and I think
that's just a myth that should really does not exist anymore,
but people seem to still believe it, but there's no
evidence for it.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
A big part of that is because they're both classified
it legally as scheduled one.
Speaker 6 (44:48):
Yeah, which is absurd.
Speaker 5 (44:49):
And this is really funny, Maria, because you mentioned earlier
the US had a patent on the medicinal use of
cannabinoids going back to decades while at the same the
FDA was saying and dea it's schedule on it's no
potential for medical use and high abuse potential when they
had a patent showing that it's not that, you know,
(45:12):
it's absurd as in.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Door protected, and they weren't allowing the NFL and the
football players.
Speaker 5 (45:18):
My god, yeah, who could have really benefit that from
concussion recovery And that's the topic we didn't talk about,
but cbd is can be really helpful for you know,
recovery from a rain injury or a stroke for that matter.
There's studies on this, so it's it's quite terrible to
be it's like anti scientific, very politically and racially motivated.
(45:41):
We didn't get into the drug war, but there's all
sorts of nonsense around.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
That follow the money, but guys, don't, just I think
the first step. Don't have to go out and try
magic much rooms, or go into therapy, or even try cannabis,
but just try to I I applaud everyone who's listening
because you're you're converting n O to k n OW
(46:08):
and hopefully this knowledge will be useful because honestly, until
people say enough is enough and complain right, all politics
is local. You got to start on the local level
the constituents if they start demanding some better healthcare. Only
then will the politicians listen. And it's all politically motivated.
(46:32):
And oh, it's just bad medicine, bad medicine, and it's
it's it's it's it's frustrating, but and it's nobody's fault
to to have the perceptions you have. But this conversation
and just listening to it is an opportunity to let's uh,
let's all go for a jog afterwards and expand our brains. So, yeah,
(46:59):
dangerous time substance or powerful natural medicine sounds like it's
a powerful natural medicine and it's a gateway to greater
understanding greater empathy, greater adaptability. The planet's just getting more
and more people on it if we can't adapt and
to exercise some flexibility.
Speaker 5 (47:19):
So another one is that then this is a nuanced one,
but the idea that cannabis damages your brain. So I've
looked personally at a lot of research literature on how
brain imaging has shown differences in the brain as results
of cannabis use. And this is actually something that mean
and a friend of mine, he's a Stanford MD, where
(47:40):
can publish this in a paper?
Speaker 6 (47:41):
Actually hopeful in the next six months or so.
Speaker 5 (47:43):
We reviewed every study ever done on whether cannabis use
changes the structure of our brain, and we found is
that a lot of studies found increases size and certain
brain regions, a lot of studies found decreased size in
a lot of brain regions. When we bring them all together,
they can sell each other out. So what that means
(48:06):
is this, it's a mess of research that there's no
conclusions that can be drawn on actual structural changes that
last in your brain as a results of cannabis use.
And in terms of like what that means from brain damage,
it means there's no reliable effect and if we could
say anything, it's that heavy chronic use in adolescence likely
(48:28):
does cause potentially damage or developmental changes in the way,
you know, impairments in the way that the brain might
develop in.
Speaker 6 (48:36):
Certain ways, and that service factor.
Speaker 5 (48:38):
I would certainly not advocate for a heavy chronic use
in teenagers or early adults for that matter. It's all
about moderation, and the research does it that suggests that
using it at reasonable dosages, not every day, but in
a moderate way has minimal to know harmful effects. There's
no evidence that that damage the brain damages the brain
(48:59):
per se and in fact, as we've been saying, depending
on the strain, especially if it's a high CVD ratio strain,
it can be even good for the brain. It can
even be anti inflammatory and antioxidant, which are the two
things that basically mean neuroprotectant and protecting the health of
your neurons.
Speaker 6 (49:16):
And so it's a nuance topic.
Speaker 5 (49:19):
I think the idea that oh, you're gonna smoke cannabis
is going to damage your brain is not true. It
can only potentially be true in extreme circumstances for young
people teenagers smoking a lot. But it's a lot more
nuanced than that, and the research is very messy and.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Even gupherbid if you're younger and you're struck with a terrible,
terrible disease or like it's being you know, a god
forbid cancer, you have a pediatric case and you start
using Rick Simpson oil or high THC. Again, if it's
I mean, I don't know, I don't know what the
(49:56):
study show of the effect if someone has a medical
reason to take high strains. But even then, like it
would probably be microdosed and a tolerance would be built,
then it would be monitored, so it would come down
to responsible use.
Speaker 5 (50:12):
I would think, yeah, I think everything in moderation, right,
And something I want to add here actually important is
that if you look at the effects of alcohol in
the brain, the amount of brain damage that alcohol creates,
whether you're an adult or an adolescence, is far far
greater than cannabis because alcohol is directly neuro toxic.
Speaker 6 (50:33):
Cannabis isn't.
Speaker 5 (50:34):
Cannabis over time will create changes in your brain and
you know, in a more subtle way, whereas alcohol, which
every nineteen year old or whatever, nineteen twenty one year
old they're being drinking out there, they're partying with their friends.
They're doing all these things, which is terrible, and that
that the amount of lifelong brain damage that happens to
(50:54):
like ninety percent of youth through drink like that is,
you know, is massive, and it's it's like it's so
culturally sanctioned, yet we're demonizing cannabis use, which you know,
in order to even if you smoke chronic heavy cannabis
as a nineteen year old, it's not gonna be as
harmful as chronic binge drinking for your brain. And people
(51:16):
don't realize this because again there's all sorts of uh,
misinformation and stigma around cannabis.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
So Willie Nelson's ninety one years old, and I could say,
I don't know how many decades he's been smoking cannabis,
but many decades, and thank god it wasn't alcohol. I
don't know if he'd be here for his ninety first birthday,
let alone still doing concerts.
Speaker 5 (51:43):
Because alcohol also speeds up dementia and Alzheimer's and cognitive decline.
Alcohol does that in the way cannabis doesn't. Cannabis it
can even protect against that. CBDs used to help with
people with Alzheimer's. You're not going to prescribe somebody vodka
recover from Alzheimer's, you know, or raw or whiskey or
what have you that's gonna exacerbate it.
Speaker 6 (52:05):
And so these are important distinctions.
Speaker 5 (52:07):
There's so much cultural arbitrarity around it, and just yeah,
do you want to know something promising, Maria. Actually, there
are statistics amongst like gen Zers and the younger generation,
they're drinking less and less alcohol. And in fact, people
are you know, even going to parties and taking small
doses of magic mushrooms for example, like microdoses as they're called,
(52:30):
which is a tiny amount which you're not really it's
not really opponent experience, but it can uplift your mood,
it can might slightly change your experience, and like mildly intoxicating,
but definitely not like alcohol and not harmful for the
brain like alcohol. So I think amongst the young people
who were born let's say late nineties even two thousands,
(52:50):
they're drinking much less than any generations previously, and so
there's a downward trend there. So they're they're growing up
so and we like culturally we're growing up in certain cases,
and there's a lot of maturity around these things. And
awareness that people who you know might have grown up
and we're an adult in the eighties with all the
nonsense I was peddled back then. Just you know, it's
(53:12):
hard because that's what you were taught growing up, and
so it's hard to question it, and there's resistance and fear.
But I think we need to be open to the
facts and what it's real and what the science is
telling us. Otherwise we're closing ourselves off from a potentially
extremely beneficial, holistic resource for our health, right which is
cannabis and magic mushrooms to some extent, and.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
We're suffering as a society. We're in pain, we're just
not enjoying life when we could be just numbed out
getting medicated or drinking and then having the side effects
associated with that. There's a whole world out there to
discover and learn, but you know, and it's always balanced, right.
(54:01):
I think the hardest thing in parenting is setting healthy
limits and you know, not repressing the child, but you
want to protect them and to be able to let
go and let them explore and experiment. Bad things can happen,
So anthropologically we do we do for safety or try
(54:24):
to just say you know, no, don't go there or
you know, but I just I hope people will before
jumping to n try to no kayn ow. Just just
become curious about things. My husband's always telling me, I
don't know why. I mean, I have to take a
magic mushroom. Maybe I'll do that and we'll do another
(54:46):
episode and I'll tell you why. But no matter what
that guy says me jerk, I say no, no, I
don't know why. It's a defensiveness. It's a control thing, right,
but it's it's it's in there. And he gave me
a good exercise. He said, could you try just saying
maybe saying it's they'd jumping right to know. Whenever I
(55:09):
say something, how about yeah maybe and then think about it.
It's not easy for me to do that.
Speaker 6 (55:19):
Yeah. I mean, I love that you're sharing this, and
you know, it's like a.
Speaker 5 (55:23):
Real experience in a lot of cases for me, I
think a really important skill to cultivate is a skepticism
of your new jerk reactions and emotional responses. Right, It's like, oh,
I feel yeah, you know I feel this right now.
I feel very aversive. This feels wrong, it feels bad.
Why do I feel that way. What if I just
sat with it? What if I just breathed like, what
(55:45):
if I question that a little bit?
Speaker 6 (55:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
As we wrap up today's episode of Just Saying You Know,
I hope we've managed to shed some light on the
potential of cannabis and psychedelics psilocybin as viable natural medicines
when used responsible, Doctor Gern has guided us through the
science behind these substances, highlighting their unique role in mental
(56:11):
and brain health, particularly through harnessing neuroplasticity. Our brains have
a remarkable, remarkable ability to adapt and hal and heal,
to adapt and heal, So I mean, who can be
against that a gateway to being more adaptable and to healing. Hey,
(56:33):
sign me up. While these topics, though honestly they can
feel intimidating or even controversial, emerging research is revealing promising
benefits for those seeking natural alternatives to conventional treatments, or
when conventional treatments just don't have an answer. We've learned
(56:53):
that destigmatizing these medicines it's going to require ongoing education
and inform dialogue like today's episode, by understanding how these
substances interact with our bodies and minds we can move
beyond the fears toward a more open, compassionate perspective on
(57:13):
their potential, which is documented. So let's keep the conversation going.
I encourage everyone to visit our website Greenbelife dot com,
where you can find educational programming on GBLTV and in
our greenbey Life Learning Center. There's articles, guides, Stay curious,
continue educating yourselves, and approach these topics with as my
(57:40):
husband likes to tell me to how to approach him,
not with him, No, yeah, maybe you know, Let's approach
them with an open mind and respect for the science.
Before we sign off, I'd also like to offer you
to super valuable resources to further your understanding of so
applying the knowledge we've learned from today's episode. Visit doctor
(58:04):
Gern's website at mnshgern dot com. That's mensh m A
n ees h g I r n mneshgern dot com
to download a free guide Five Steps to Rewiring your
Brain with Psychedelics. This pdf offers practical insights into harnessing
(58:24):
the power of neuroplasticity and for those listeners or healthcare
providers wanting to take a deeper dive check out doctor
Gern's masterclash and ebook also at Meneshgern dot com Forward
Slash Masterclass. It's an excellent opportunity to learn from a
(58:46):
leading pioneering expert in this most critical field. Thank you
for joining us on Just Saying No today. Remember knowledge
is powers, specially when it comes to your health and wellbeing.
Stay curious, stay informed, and always keep learning until next time.
(59:06):
This is Maria Calbury's encouraging you to just say no
with a k n OW.
Speaker 4 (59:16):
Let me tell you.
Speaker 1 (59:18):
Just Say No is a green Bee Life presentation airing
live weekly on Friday afternoons from four to five pm
Pacific on KCA Radio and KCAA TV. Archived audio episodes
are on Greenbeelife, greenbelife dot com, iHeartRadio, Speaker, and most
(59:39):
third party major platforms. For archived videos, check them out
on GBLTV, on Greenbee Life YouTube, and Rumble. To follow
us our Instagram and Facebook is at just Say No Radio.
To apply to be a guest on the show or
(01:00:01):
for sponsorship and advertising opportunities, go to Greenbelife dot com.
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