Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Doff.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello again and welcome to Just Say No, where we
spotlight the innovators behind cannabis's news, products and the groundbreaking
ideas driving the legal cannabis movement with some of the
smartest minds in the industry. Thank you for tuning in.
I'm your host Maria Calabrese on CACAA Radio ten fifty
(00:28):
Am one oh six point five FM. I'm honor. I'm
privileged to be joined today by an incredible panel of
voices that are as lively as they are diverse. Alan
Shore is an entrepreneur, cannabis investor, and multiple Tony Award
winning Broadway producer who brings his expertise from a variety
(00:50):
of industries to the cannabis space. Zeth Rutherford is the
founder of water Works, providing a sustainable water management system
to the island of an Antucket, and an owner operator
of an award winning dispensary in Massachusetts. Seth joins us
with roots in agriculture since childhood, and Rabbi Yakov Cohen.
(01:14):
Rabbi Cohen is the founder of Whole Kosher Services and
the president of Returning Light, a nonprofit dedicated to the
study of Torah and Kabbalah. He will share insights into
the intersection of faith, tradition, and kosher certified cannabis. Together,
(01:34):
we'll dive into some of the most pressing topics shaping
the cannabis landscape, including what it really takes to start
a cannabis business given the threats and challenges of operating
legally in a federally illegal space green rush or bust,
and most importantly, in the spirit of the holiday season,
(01:54):
we'll explore lessons of perseverance learned from the story of
Hanukkah and the concept of kosher cannabis, what it means
to be kosher certified cannabis. So get cozy, but not
to cozy if you're driving, and get ready to find
out what happens when a Broadway producer, a rabbi, and
a farmer walk into a dispensary. Because the rules and
(02:17):
regulations we establish now at the crossroads of federal legalization
will shape the future of cannabis for generations to come.
So let's dig in and explore just what's at stake.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
By twenty twenty, Bank of America and Merrill Lynch estimate
that will grow to thirty five billion dollars and many
experts believe it could eventually reach two hundred billion dollars
each and every year.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Jo me yaba, I can.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
See so much father, Yon moroses, Yon mollases.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
I'm a better fu who is on a begon. Taken
me a while to get it.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Had to live and cry to appreciate your life and
what you give. His word, when you're holding the when
you hold me so close, someone better and under your skin.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Welcome everyone today's show. I'm looking forward to exploring today's
topics through the lens of innovation, resilience, and Honikah. In Hebrew,
Honikah means dedication, and the holiday celebrates the rededication of
the Temple in Jerusalem in the second century BC, after
a small, but determined and blessed group of Jewish fighters
(03:58):
liberated it from occupying forces. So what does this have
to do with cannabis, you're probably wondering. Well, despite its
legalization in most states, cannabis remains federally classified as a
Schedule one drug, a designation that falsely, and I might add,
recklessly equates it with dangerous substances like LSD or heroin,
(04:21):
deemed to have no medical value and a high potential
for abuse. Yeah, this contradiction creates unique challenges for the
plant entrepreneurs, consumers, and advocates forcing their very existence. They're
very survival against significant odds that affect us all. I've
(04:44):
asked our panel to join us today. I wanted to
start with Alan Shore as an entrepreneur in the space,
to give us an overview of the challenges of starting
a cannabis business in today's legal landscape. Welcome, Alan Hill,
So good to see you again.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
Alan, It's nice to see you.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Also, thank you, thank you for joining us. You're going
to have great insights. But before diving in, I like
you to tell our listeners a little bit about your
entrepreneurial background in your own words, I.
Speaker 6 (05:15):
Didn't realize I was an entrepreneur until somebody told me
I was. So I was always trying to do things differently,
and from the time that I really went to left college,
you know, graduated, until to the rest of my life,
I always thought there are better ways to do things,
(05:36):
and the people that I was working for doing other things.
I thought, well, I'll try it my way. And then
somebody said, well, you're really an entrepreneur, and I said, okay,
Well if that's what you want to call me. So
my background was in music, theater and something that has
nothing to do with music and theater, which is accounting
(05:57):
and finance. But believe it or not, they do go together.
And as a result of that, what I've been able
to do is employ my skills from an accounting and
from a financial background to help create different companies in
the financial services world now the cannabis world. And believe
(06:18):
it or not, the accounting and financial skills that I've
acquired over the years has really helped me in being
a producer in the theater world because it's really about numbers,
and part of that is making sure that you stay
with the budget, that the budget's correct and everything has
done the right way.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
If you've never had the pleasure of being in Woody
Allen's office in New York, over his desk he has
a sign that says its show business right, not show show.
So you are spot on. How do you connect these
skills to this cannabis industry.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
Way you would connect the skills to any industry. Being
in the financial services world is one of the most
highly regulated, least I thought highly regulated industries in the world.
You've got multiple agencies, governmental non governmental agencies are always
looking over your shoulder. You've got all kinds of compliance
(07:20):
issues that you have to adhere to. So the cannabis
business is similar the fact that it's regulated. You've got
compliance issues, you've got the same financial concerns of any
other business. So the skill set that a person, any
person might have in running or starting or managing a business,
can be employed and can be an entrepreneur in any
(07:44):
kind of business, including the cannabis business. And without that
skill set, it's going to be very challenging for anyone
to be successful and really in any business. And part
of that, and the most important part of that, which
is true again for any kind of business, is surrounding
yourself with people that are better than you, that know
(08:06):
more than you, and they're specific whatever it is that
they do, whether it's growing or in the cannabis business
or whostsale, whatever it happens to be, and letting them
take the ball, let them run with it. If they
make a mistake, they make a mistake, but certainly let
them do the things that they do best and stay
out of their way so that everybody stays in their
(08:27):
own lane. And if you allow that to happen. The
chance of success are greater than if you try to
step into somebody else's position or somebody else's lane.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Well, before I dive deep in with you into advice
for starting a cannabis business, speaking of surrounding yourself with
people smarter than you, I am surrounded by it's an
embarrassment of riches. So I just want to bring in
next the rabbi to tell a little bit about his
(09:03):
background in his own words, and what he has to
do with cannabis, and then we'll bring seven and then
we'll dive into the interview with my first question to Alan, Rabbi, welcome.
Speaker 7 (09:17):
Great to be here, very special.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
To have you here because I understand you were in Israel. Yes,
I'd love to have you tell us a little bit
about yourself and your own words.
Speaker 7 (09:28):
Okay, quickly, you know, I was not always like many
people were, not a rabbi before the rabbi. I wasn't
raised religious. I was raised very secular. I didn't become
religious until I went to Israel when I was nineteen
years old, and then I was in a rabbinical school
and spent nineteen years there and then got married, raised
(09:50):
a family, started family and then moved to to Texas,
so and that's when I got involved in being in
kosher food and kosher services, and of course it branched out.
And the quick background story is I had a son
(10:10):
who was diagnosed as having brain cancer. He did pass
away after a year and a half, but during that
time he when he had a relapse, we were introduced
into cannabis. I had already been doing kosher food production
and giving kosher certification to various other industries, but here
(10:35):
was the cannabis industry. My son was. I was trying
to give him cannabis in terms of all of the
research that was done. And so my father and some
friends says, why don't you go and work and see
about making cannabis kosher because this and it has such
medicinal properties. People need it. People are going to be
(10:56):
looking for it, and they'll be much more comfortable if
it's kosher. So that's when I reached out to was
what we spoke Tracy Ryan of Cana Kids other places
in California. I think that's where it started first and
started to make very many products kosher, offering kosher services
(11:17):
until I and then of course I was introduced to
two five to three organic on the on the East Coast. Yeah,
that was great man. Yeah, so you know, I was
really excited to go there and help them out in
terms of getting their kosher certification. It was a really
a lot of fun. It's such an awesome dispensary, a
(11:40):
great place to visit, to drive there, it's just amazing.
So and I always enjoy going and making my usual
routine kosher visits.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Ah, that's amazing, amazing. My condolences for your signe, and
my hats off to you for when western medicine doesn't
have a solution for going beyond. I can't even imagine
as a parent, First of all, going through something like that,
(12:15):
Second of all, having to make the decision to try
cannabis and to have gotten to that point to have
to do that.
Speaker 7 (12:25):
And it was very experimental, like nobody knew really knew
what was going on.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Then, right, you mentioned canna kids, Josh and Tracy Ryan.
They're just an amazing, amazing couple, And of course they're
little girl Sophie who was afflicted with a brain tumor,
and you know, back then, I mean what a mom
will do for their child. Tracy actually was able to
(12:52):
get Cedar Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles to give her
a piece of her two year olds brain tissue. Yeah,
and she transported it herself and in iglu cooler on
a plane to Israel. Could you just tell us quickly
before we bring in the next smart one here smarter
than all of us, Seth, just tell us a little
(13:14):
bit about the difference in how Israel approaches medical Malwana
and Malwana. In the United States.
Speaker 7 (13:22):
It is stricter. It's harder to get a prescription, it's
only medicinal, and have a very tight knit on the
production where it flows and things like that. You know,
it's not so easy you could just walk into a dispensary.
It's it's you know, so there are much a few
more hoops to go through in order to get the medicine.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yes, the hoops aside. It is medically available and has
been for decades. So what they have on the United
States and the rest of the world is a jump
on the research. In fact, it wasn't. Yeah, so they
haven't had that obstacle or burden.
Speaker 7 (14:03):
So they were When we were in Texas with our
son Alisha, we were debating whether to go to California
or Israel, because Israel had the research, but we wouldn't
be able to access it if we Oh, so we went.
We opted to go to California.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yes, So it's you know, legalization. It impacts so many
people from so many different walks of life in so
many different ways.
Speaker 7 (14:31):
We're all, we're all we're trying to crawl out of
the stigma. You know, we're trying to help people crawl
out of the stigma, which is really what I'm about,
you know, because to make it available and offer it
to be kosher, you know, medicinal wise. You know, still
a lot of people in my circles are still very
much against it, even though it's inedible, even though it's
(14:54):
you know, medicinal. They'll let it, but usually buy and large.
You know, they still have of that stigma there.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
We've got them out and to climb. But I'm glad
we're doing it.
Speaker 7 (15:07):
The Maccabees are about right.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
That's right, And I'm glad against the big Fed, that's right.
Speaker 6 (15:17):
South. I have I have a question for the.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Rabbi Okay, sorry Seth oh, my goodness, guy, Alan.
Speaker 6 (15:23):
When Moses went up to Mount Sinai in the Burning Bush,
what was that bush made of and where he saw?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Oh my goodness, when the god Alaska, oh a Alan,
when the god spoke, there was smoke. So absolutely so
set Set. You have your roots is having been working
(15:55):
on a farm since the age of eleven years old.
Somehow the laws that was legal. But all right, don't
get me started. So and you have this background and
knowledge and sustainable agriculture. You're the founder of water Works,
having come up with a water management system to serve
(16:16):
as islands like the island of Nantucket. And you are
a co owner and operator of one of Massachusetts's most
premier award winning pharmacies, two five to three Pharmacy. That's
pharmacy with an F. So tell us a little bit
about yourself and two five to three Pharmacy. And Allen,
(16:39):
I want you taking notes because we're going to do
cannabis the musical.
Speaker 6 (16:43):
Okay, we actually did something like that called Flight over
Sunset a few years ago that just didn't work. But
it was it wasn't cannabis, it was other drugs.
Speaker 8 (16:58):
All right, Well, Maria, make the start start off by
thank you for having me. I very much appreciate your
time and being able to join I'm a Massachusetts resident
born and raised in Western Mass and Western Mass you know,
as you as you stated, is really all about agriculture here.
I live here right here in Hadley and Hadley, mass
(17:21):
is you know, has has I think the second best
top soil in the world behind San Joaquin Valley in California.
And I ended up marrying into a farming family as well,
farming anything from tobacco to asparagus to corn. And you know,
they do have some cattle kicking around for all the
excess you know, vegetables that they don't sell.
Speaker 9 (17:40):
And so when.
Speaker 8 (17:42):
I was twenty one, I had an opportunity to move
down to Nantucket with my partner.
Speaker 9 (17:46):
So, you know, Joe and I moved down to Nantucket
and started water works.
Speaker 8 (17:50):
And we're very fortunate to move to a place like
Nantucket and have an end and you know, work for
some probably you know, some of the the wealthiest peace
people in the world that really care about their landscapes
and care about their homes.
Speaker 9 (18:03):
And really gave myself an education.
Speaker 8 (18:05):
There, just you know, learning, you know, learning all the
different aspects of you know, building sustainable landscapes.
Speaker 9 (18:11):
I was, I was, I was elected to what was
called the Article sixty eight board. What the Article sixty
eight board.
Speaker 8 (18:17):
Was, We were trying to find a way to limit the
nitrogen and phosphorus use on Nantucket so that we would
not pollute our estuaries. And we and through that board,
we we developed a b MP which is the best
management practice and currently I believe it still is the
strictest in the state on nitrogen use. And we lived
with the nitrogen use on Nantucket to three pounds per
thousand and so that we really try to educate, you know,
(18:40):
landscapers and the tradesmen and women, you know, how to
properly apply fertilizers so that you are not you you're
you're keeping a healthy landscape, but you're not damaging you know,
the environment around you. And you know, cannabis was always
you know, I always use that. I'm a very energetic
individual and I always use cannabis as a way to
(19:02):
calm down, in a.
Speaker 9 (19:03):
Way to just melow myself out.
Speaker 8 (19:06):
And I've always had a real passion for it. And
from there, you know, in two thousand and eight came around,
we really had a passion to get into it. You know,
we're builders, we're in the landscape trade, we understand you know,
plant water maintenance, and we ended up you know, finding
very very fortunate enough to find Out and Marsha as partners.
(19:26):
And I think that's one of the really things that
separates two five three is the partnership that we were
able to bring together because we were able to bring
professionals from all different you know, walks of life, lawyers,
financial people, construction people, landscape people, and really kind of
bring everyone together to run a very complex industry that
(19:48):
doesn't have data, you know, to look up and to
see what to do. It's really something that you know,
you have to really make good decisions and see them
through and pivot on a dime if the decisions that
you made seems.
Speaker 9 (20:00):
To be going in the wrong direction.
Speaker 8 (20:02):
And so, you know, we we ended up partnering Chris
and I partnered with Alan and Marsha and we built
their own facility. We operate our own facility. So, you know,
a very unique company, and we really worry about quality.
Worry about bringing a quality product to the table for customers,
something that a customer could find relief in whatever.
Speaker 9 (20:23):
They're looking for.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Well, I'm you're in a perfect spot when to segue
from quality we're twenty minutes into the show, and in
California it is for tyth So every show at four twenty,
we have a segment called quick Hits. So we're going
to get a quick hit where I'm going to ask
(20:46):
the Rabbi to drop a knowledge bomb for us. And
the quick hit that I'm going to ask him is, Rabbi,
what is kosher animates and how does it become certified?
Speaker 7 (21:01):
So you know, talk about what kosher is. First of all,
you have to understand kosher does not mean blessed by
the Rabbi. Okay, there's a serious laws, the criteria that
comes from the Five Books of Moses, covering an entire
spectrum of different foods, everything from meat to dairy, fish, fowl, bugs,
(21:24):
and grapes. So all of these different levels of food
or areas of food have different criteria that meets kosher standards.
Like your animal needs two signs to be a kosher animal,
right Alan, you know which two signs those are.
Speaker 6 (21:40):
It has to its cud and it has to have
its cud and have a cloe hoof, Yeah, ing ing thing.
Speaker 7 (21:52):
We should mess for the knowledge barbi the day Okay,
I came from a very religious home and became secular later.
So yeah, so that's an animal has to have those signs.
And even if it has those signs and it's not
properly ritually slaughtered, it's not kosher. So if it cow
(22:15):
was not killed in the ritual slaughter, away, even though
it's a kosher animal. So anything of that cow or
any derivative of that which gets into cannabis because of
a gelatin. For the most of the industry uses gelatin
either from a pig or cow, that not kosher. That
to make their gummies. Okay, of course many are making
(22:39):
from pectin. That's a different story. But let's say dairy
we don't mix milk and meat. You know, we have
an issue of bugs. Now, just a zero win on cannabis.
The plant itself, like any other plant or vegetable, has
no problems with being kosher, like an apple or a banana.
The only issues with certain vegetables are fruits. Is a
(23:01):
predominance of insects because we're not allowed to eat a bug.
According to the Torah. We break six five or five
commandments if we eat a bug. Okay, and if you
know there's bugs in there, you gotta wash it and
check it before you eat it.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I were a friend of green bee.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
Yeah, green bee. I was wondering was it a bee
that's green or the okay? So the plants themselves. I
did go to Mendocina. We gave a Kosher certificate to
a farm there. I did check there and they have
these very little insects called thrips in the buds. Talk
(23:42):
about the flower tops. So I asked a very big
rabbi about it, and he says, well, because most of
the people are burning it because they're smoking it, so
the bugs are getting burned. So there's no problem of
the bugs if they're eating it like in a salad
which some people I've been prescribed in California.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Raw yes, raw form, So then you have an issue.
Speaker 7 (24:06):
It has to be cleaned of bugs and don't even
know if it can be because of the stickiness of it.
So therefore, predominantly mostly so the flower tops really don't
really need a Kosher certification, but it helps because of marketing.
Because don't forget, kosher is not just for religious Jews.
(24:26):
Kocher kosher could extend to Muslims, vegetarians, vagans, and health
conscientious people looking for that. There's a third set of
eyes looking on this product to guarantee that it's safe. Okay.
So that's why people in a grocery store, sixty percent
of the things in the grocery store are have a
(24:47):
Kosher symbol on it. Sixty percent of the items in
any grocery store now in the United States, and people
will always choose an item with a Kosher symbol over
an item without a kocher sole because they know, oh,
there was another pair of eyes.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
It's a marketing, it's a gold standard. It's a gold standard, correct.
Speaker 7 (25:06):
So then yes, absolutely, So then when you now moving
on past the bugs. So then when you process the
bugs into oil, so then you get into solvents and
things that come in contact with the plant. So you
have to make sure those solvents are coming from kosher sources.
The biggest solvent that's used most likely today is is ethanol.
(25:29):
Now ethanol, everybody will instantly think it's it's corn, it's weed.
It's not necessarily. There are ethanols that are made from
grapes which present a kosher issue because we have a
very strict rule about our grapes, even grape juice. It
has to be squeezed from an observant jew until it's bottled.
For sure, wine because we use it in rituals all
(25:51):
the times, the rabbis made very strict decrees that it
has to be a Jewish wine. So ethanol could be
made from grape. Ethanol could also be made from whey,
which is a cheese, which is also a big, huge
kosher issue. So we have to make sure that the
ethanol or any solvents that are used in order to
turn to make the oils have to come from kosher sources.
(26:14):
And then when you go onto that, let's say you're
when you're making your intervals, like any other kosher material,
all the materials have to be kosher. The chocolate, the sugar,
the flavorings, the gummies, the pectin. All of those items
have to meet certain certain specific kosher criteria in order
to be kosher okay. So, and then there's a course
(26:36):
to maintain the equipment. So that's the kosher industry in
a nutshell.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Oh, it's fascinating. And what's really fascinating is I'm going
to just start a movement that everyone in Congress, everyone
in nor the decision makers have to get bar mitz
foot because you guys were able to work this out
with Jewish law, but America I don't know. So thank you,
(27:05):
my goodness, say it can, there, it can. There's always
a solution, which brings me to the cannabis. Running a
cannabis business Alan. The cannabis industry is estimated to employ
over a half a million people right. It includes approximately
twelve thousand licensed retail locations. It's estimated to earn thirty
(27:30):
billion dollars a year, more than the Baseball League, National
Football League, and NBA combined. Yeah, it remains classified as
a Schedule one substance, presenting passive challenges that, like you said,
startups and other industries aren't faced with. So my question
(27:53):
to you is, given the current legal landscape and the
challenges that they present to running cannabis business, who is
making all the money? Is anybody making any money? And
what inspired you to enter this space?
Speaker 6 (28:10):
All right? So the first question is really easy to answer.
Who's making all the money? The regular the state for
with the that and the fads. They're making all the
money because they're they're taxing cannabis companies on income that
they don't really have, and the tax that cannabis companies
(28:35):
have to pay is different than any other industry in
the United States. So that's that's so that's the easy
answer to your question. What's what inspired the question? Was
what inspired me to do this? Yes, well, not understanding
what the federal regulators were going to taxes on off,
(28:56):
and the idea that with any business, if you can
run it efficiently and you you can mitigate the tax
issues that you can, and you have good partners and
you know what you're doing, then you can you can
make it work despite the tax burden. So that that's
really what it was. Because I had no clue, I mean,
(29:20):
not a scintilla of an idea of cannabis up until
the time I met Seth and Chris.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Nothing, none of us did. I can't tell you how
many people in the state of California didn't vote for
League Station or say they wish they hadn't.
Speaker 6 (29:37):
Yeah, So it's you know, it's a business just like
show business or the or the legal business, or the
broad you know, it's the entertainment business in general, and
it all has its quirks, but the cannabis. Cannabis business
is probably, at least in Massachusetts, the most regulated industry
in the entire state. With the highest burden of taxation.
(30:00):
And that's just not it's not basically not fair.
Speaker 7 (30:04):
And I thought California was higher.
Speaker 6 (30:08):
I don't. I don't think so. I think we're talking
about federal taxes.
Speaker 7 (30:13):
In federal state feder Wait a minute, Wait a minute,
wait a minute, Federal schedule one. Correct, Yes, yet you're
right able to tax it. Excuse me, isn't it considered
to be federally what did what? What? Group? Group one
or level one?
Speaker 6 (30:31):
Yeah? Right, yeah, so it doesn't allow you to take
deductions for in the ordinary course of business, Without getting
too technical, inter Section one sixty two ordinary business expenses
that every other business is able to take, accelerated appreciation
and other things that businesses are entitled to, and therefore
(30:53):
you're paying tax on literally phantom income. And that's just
I just yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Two eighty originated in nineteen eighty one during the Reagan administration.
I'll tell you, Rabbi and Seth, I know Alan, you
know this. I'm not sure if you do, set But
he came about when a convicted cocaine trafficker, aren't you
in court that he should be allowed to deduct his
legitimate business expenses? The ZIP ties for his cocaine trafficking, etc. Etc.
(31:23):
Et cetera, and despite his business being illegal, he was
able to deduct business expenses. So two eighty eight came
in response to that, Congress established the rule which prohibits
anyone involved in trafficking controlled substances from deducting their business expenses.
(31:47):
And as long as cannabis is on that list of
controlled substances, it can't deduct any of its expenses such
as becoming certified, kosher storage and transportation, banking, franchise fees, packaging, marketing,
none of it is tax deduct dimetric bills. There you go,
(32:07):
So I could speak for I think a legal cannabis
operator could face a federal tax rate of around seventy
percent in addition to the state and local taxes. And
on top of this, in Los Angeles there's a five
percent excise tax.
Speaker 9 (32:25):
So a need the analogy there.
Speaker 8 (32:28):
You know, if you're running a retail store, and if
you did a million dollars a year in business, and
a half a million dollars was the product that that
retail store bought to resell, that retail store would pay
tax on a half a million dollars. The only thing
you would be able to duct is the product you bought,
so you would you would pay tax on your labor.
You're parking, you know, your your snow plowing anything above
(32:51):
and beyond. And so, you know, in the early days
when the margins were high, and I'm talking the early
days of Massachusetts when we opened in nineteen margins were high.
There wasn't a lot of retail stores. We were able
to pull pull profits. As this industry continues to condense
and get saturated, it's really become catastrophic for companies.
Speaker 9 (33:12):
And you know, they're just not able to.
Speaker 8 (33:14):
Survive on margins because you need exponential margins to continue
to pay The federal government.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
Told you he was smart.
Speaker 7 (33:23):
Is it still getting saturated the market in your opinion?
Speaker 9 (33:27):
Well, I think you know, I mean, I mean the
answer to that is I stutter a little bit.
Speaker 8 (33:32):
I think we're hopefully on the verge of coming the
other way.
Speaker 9 (33:36):
You know, we we.
Speaker 8 (33:37):
Were down to like four dollars and fifty cents a
gram on the retail side.
Speaker 9 (33:41):
And when we get down to four.
Speaker 8 (33:43):
Dollars a gram, producers can't produce it for two dollars
a gram and stay live. And so, and I'm talking
to retail at four point fifty. So when the retail's
four and these retail stores are keystoning, we're very close
to the bottom if we're not there yet. And just
in the last month we've seen some very big operators
close their doors in Massachusetts, and I think that that's
(34:05):
going to continue. And so, you know, to get back
to you know what Almon was saying about cannabis, You
know how how it's how it's very unique, can't you know?
Instead of you know a lot of businesses where you're
you're looking to increase revenues, in cannabis, you're looking to
reduce costs. You run that business on cost base and
you don't take risks of costs are associated due to
(34:28):
the taxes because those costs turn into income to you
and you have to pay more phantom income and so
it's a very difficult business. So it's really a lean
and mean business model to stay alive and depthly, like
I say, you know, people ask, well, how do you
survive in cannabis? And it's factious, right, but it's like, well,
(34:49):
don't write a check because every check you write his
income to you, even though you're giving it to someone else. Okay,
so it's you know, it's really you know, it's it's
kind of the you know, it's as you really have
to be very of how you operate, and you know,
at two five three, we've always taken the approach where
we don't have a huge wholesale department and we don't
(35:09):
kind of have a ton of marketing because a lot
of companies get themselves in trouble where they they spend
more to make less and you really have to watch
your bottom lines and be conservative and concentrate on yourself.
Speaker 7 (35:24):
You should have a blessing. You should have a blessing
and continued blessing for continued success and growth.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Well Alan and Seth and even with the rabbis blessing,
you gave the best advice. You have to go low
and slow. You have to be leaning mean. You have
to be able to survive legalization. And it's it's really
a conundrum because you don't have access to financing that
(35:52):
other startups have. Many financial institutions aren't going to want
to touch it if the government's deeming it illegal aria.
Speaker 6 (36:02):
I'll give you an example of how bad it is.
I had an American Airlines advandaged City Bank card, and
I got about a year and a half ago, I
got a notice of them saying we've canceled your card
and I said why, and they said, because you own
an interest in a cannabis company and it's federally illegal.
(36:24):
I said, oh. At the same time, they're also city
bank banks the State of New York's cannabis business. So
it's like, okay, well, why can't you do one or
nothing the other. But that's how bad it's become at.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Times it is. And you know, necessity is the mother
of invention. So anone who can survive this should be
on the cover of Fortune five hundred. I mean, it's
going to take minds as bright as this panel. And
it never hurts that the Rabbi's blessing. But all these
(36:57):
entrepreneurs that jumped in believing, hey, this is going to
be the next Silicon valley, it's the next big giant
among growth industries. Guys. It's a green revolution, not a
green rush. So if you're thinking of going into it,
be prepared to join the revolution.
Speaker 6 (37:17):
Well, I'll go one step further, Maria. Unless you're at
least in Massachusetts, unless you're vertically integrated, you cannot make
money period. It's just impossible.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Can you explain to our listeners what a vertically integrated
license means?
Speaker 6 (37:34):
I can now because Seth taught me, so I'm gonna
let Seth my teacher, explain it better than me.
Speaker 8 (37:40):
So a vertically integrated facility, a vertically integrated means that
you do everything yourself, where you have your own cultivation, manufacturing,
and your retail outlets. And so it's really in Massachusetts,
it's really coming down to the verticals are able to
you know, weather this storm much easier than stand alone
(38:01):
standalone retailers. If they're at a very good location, they'll
do okay. Standalone cultivators and standalone manufacturers, unfortunately, are taking a.
Speaker 9 (38:11):
Beating right now.
Speaker 8 (38:12):
And it's really not fair because the wholesale rates, like
I explained before, are so bad at four dollars and
you know, at two dollars and twenty five cents if
you want to, if you want to look at it
that way, they're.
Speaker 9 (38:23):
They're virtually not making anything.
Speaker 8 (38:25):
And and a lot of these and a lot of
the small companies are mom and pop companies like two
five to three that have invested everything they have to
get into this, and you know, there a lot of
them are tied to all sorts of leases and personal
guarantees and it's in you know. And another really unfortunate
fact in the cannabis industry is there is no bankruptcy.
You go, you go into receivership and you lose everything
(38:47):
you own. And and I think that's why a lot
of people hang on longer than one might think they would.
But it's you know, it's it's it's definitely not all
roses behind the scenes. And the states, the state always
and the federal government always, you know, puts out how
much sale, how many, how much sales there are, but
(39:08):
it really doesn't equate to the to the profits behind
the scenes.
Speaker 6 (39:12):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
And I'd like to just move on before turning to
the strength that we can glean from the story of
Hanukkah'd like to move on to how all of these
federal inaction, all the competing state regulatory down to the
local level, all the different federal agencies commission to protect consumers,
(39:35):
How all of this regulatory game of pypon effects innovation
and at the end of the day, the consumer getting quality,
let alone kosher certified cannabis. What's the impact that this
is going to have.
Speaker 7 (39:55):
Well.
Speaker 8 (39:55):
I think that's probably the same for any industry, as
you know, desperate times or take people take desper or measures,
and so I think that's really the unfortunate fact. And
you know, people need to stay alive, they need to eat,
they need to feed their family, and you know when
when when when when when you get into a situation
like that, you know you you probably at times aren't
putting out the best products due to you know, do
(40:15):
those type of reasons. So it's very unfortunate. I think
anytime you have an affluent business, you know, you know,
those type of things are much easier to accomplish, and
so you know, it's it's it's it's a it's it's
unfortunate where where where we are right now, as people
are just trying to survive, you know, for two five three,
(40:36):
you know, we don't break any we don't try to
break any rules or break any rules, and we really
just try to stick with quality because as hard as
it is to continue to stay on that line, eventually
it will pay off. But it's just it's a grind
and you know, we're edging our name into a piece
of stone right now, and we're definitely not done yet,
(40:56):
but you know, if you do it right, and you
continue to do it right, there will be light at
the other side.
Speaker 9 (41:02):
Nothing last forever.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Yes, and if you have regulations that facilitate and energize
and promote your being able to do it right. Here's
a not so fun sacked Rabbi. You were talking about
Los Angeles. There are more weed stores in LA than Starbucks,
but more than seventy percent of the LA dispensaries are illegal.
Speaker 7 (41:29):
Amazing, and there's no crackdown on them.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
No crackdown. That's with all the taxes that the legal
guys are paying. Their question is where is the enforcement.
Where are those tax dollars going. They're not going into enforcement,
And it's I want to try to get Mayor bass
on and speak and just regulators to We're trying to
(41:55):
understand why the police, I'm sorry, turn a blind eye
and not to mention it's it's it explains why huge
amount of the biggest legal cannabis companies valued it up
to three billion dollars recently filed for bankruptcy.
Speaker 7 (42:18):
Is there any movements out there as far as let's say,
like fixing the regulations, deregulating or.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Anything like that on the National Cannabis Industry Association, which
could use support. It is the National Cannabis Industry Association
out of Washington, DC, but they have a strong presence
in Los Angeles. They're trying, but they have their lobbyists.
The multi state operators have their own lobbyists, and the
(42:50):
industry is splintered. So finding guys like Seth and Allen
in yourself who have an interest in high quality premium
up to the gold standard of kosher cannabis.
Speaker 7 (43:04):
Heart has to be in it your heart. The heart
has to be that's right, it does.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Yeah, So speaking of heart, Rabbi, the story behind kosher
cannabis a lot of heart. I'm sorry it came to
you through such a tragedy with your son, but can
you talk to us about the story of cannabis and
(43:32):
maybe some lessons that people in the cannabis industry.
Speaker 7 (43:37):
One very, you know, we had a very there's a
very big Hasidic rabbi lived about two hundred years ago.
He was two d and fifty years ago. He's called
the balishemtve. He was like a really big innovator in
terms of Jewish practice. He completely just gave an in
depth way that how Judaism can be approached and everybody
(43:57):
can have a direct personal relationship with God. And he
had one of his followers was also a tremendous scholar,
and he said this about an interesting question that maybe
people that might have contemplated, was if you look in
the world and most of the medicines of the world
they come from herbs, correct, would you say, absolutely, listen
(44:23):
to this, where does that come from? Or why is
that so? Okay? So here's a little story. On the
third day of creation. We know that God created the
world in six days. Rested on the seventh and the
third day of creation. God created the trees and the
(44:43):
plants and the grasses. Three day three he created dry
land and oceans, and then he created the trees with
bearing fruit and grasses. Now listen to this, follow me,
Follow me. He told the trees, you guys, cannot mix
the mango. Three does not tango with the avocado. Right,
(45:08):
No grafting, no mixing, no blending.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
I very woke.
Speaker 7 (45:14):
No, he wants he wants a mango to be a
pure mango and an avocado to be a pure avocado.
We don't want a mango avocado. Okay, All right. Man
came and came and they started me anyways, the trees
were told not to mix the grasses. He didn't say
anything to oh oh, Creator didn't tell him.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Are you serious?
Speaker 7 (45:38):
And the grasses are left with this what are we
supposed to do? Right? And so they made this kind
of a fiori argument, this kind of logical syllogism argument.
They say, well, if trees, which are normally separate, they
don't really get grow close to each other. And they
(46:00):
were told not to mix, so us grasses, which were
all over the place all the more so we shouldn't mix. Okay.
So they made this syllogism and conclusion. They had a
little board meeting, right, they had a hall in favor, okay,
and they all agreed we're not gonna mix. So h
(46:21):
Shen says, oh my gosh, you guys came up with
that all by yourself. Okay. And because you guys came
up with that all by yourself, I am now going
to give you the gift of healing. There's much more
in a way to explain it, but I'm gonna explain
it right just enough for them. So therefore God bestowed
(46:43):
upon all the grasses and herbs the gift of healing. Now,
the interesting thing is there's this one grass that got
a bad rap, poor little cannabis. The stone, the stone
that was cast away by the builders becomes the cornerstone.
That's the rule. The grass that was cast away by
(47:07):
the builders becomes the cornerstone. So things that things were
Nobody would consider that cannabis would have medicinal purposes. But
it has, I think greater medicinal purposes than ever.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Right, So that's why it's such a tragedy that it's
trapped in Schedule one.
Speaker 7 (47:25):
It's getting its way, it's finding its way here. Listen,
who would ever have thought thirty years ago that this
would such a thing would occur when California became legal.
It was like a huge like what who would ever think? Right?
It had a bad rap, right and slinger? Right was it?
J Paul Getty? Who has it? Forgot? Who was rant Hurst? Rat?
(47:49):
William Randolph Hearst. They gave it a bad rap, right,
But you know, the stone that was cast away by
the builders becomes the cornerstone. So you so those who
will hang on with heart with lave, like the Macabees did,
they had to fight against the Greeks were much more
greater or much more numerous. If you want to talk
about hanukkah, okay, they had to have to have your
(48:10):
heart has to be in it. You have to be
coming with a mission of you know, it helps a
lot of people. And that's why I got into the
kosher to make it kosher. A lot of people get helped.
It helps a lot of people. I get calls emails
all the time, where can I find it? Where I'm here,
Where can I get it? So it's it's it's a mitzvah.
(48:33):
If it's a mitzvah and you're certain and there's a
higher reason, it gives us the strength to go on.
Right seth Alan, you should be blessed to the strength
to continue and be and God will grant you that
strength and you'll continue to be successful to hold on.
There were two places in Massachusetts which I was giving
(48:54):
Kosher certification to close down. They couldn't hold it, like
you said, closing their doors.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Rabbi, you talked about the medicinal mitzvah. Do you think
cannabists can open up spiritual pathways? You know you talk
about Leo, light from above, lighte from below, and then
within in the I have a.
Speaker 7 (49:16):
Question, and I don't. I don't have an answer for you,
but I have a question. All rabbis are supposed to
answer questions with questions.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Right, yes, right?
Speaker 7 (49:25):
Isn't that the rule?
Speaker 2 (49:26):
It'socratic method? Yes.
Speaker 7 (49:29):
Well, you know, if it has medicinal why would I
shed make it? Why would God make it psychoactive?
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Ah?
Speaker 7 (49:39):
You know, if it has to have a medicine and
it's going to relieve pain or whatever, aches or whatever,
help people sleep, why does that have to happen? So
you know, I think in the back of my head
and I'm just thinking out loud. You know, we have
to start the world has to start thinking differently. And
(50:00):
sometimes people are so stuck in their patterns of thinking,
which goes into my book. My book has to do
with how our thoughts create angels.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Oh, congratulations, congratulations.
Speaker 7 (50:11):
I think it's called it's called the Jewish Guide to Manifesting.
That's the name of the book, Jewish Guide to Manifesting. Right,
So our patterns of thinking sometimes need to shift, wouldn't
you agree? Sometimes if you're stuck in a problem, you
need to see it from a different angle. Once you
see it from a different perception.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
That's the whole point of the title of this show.
It used to be on the war on drugs. Just
say no, and oh and I'm trying to say just
say no. Know. There's a doctor Menetesh Gurn He's in
Robin Carhart Harris's lab at U see San Francisco. He
was on episode three and he was there studying the
(50:52):
effects of psilocybin and cannabinoids on the brain and on
bioplasticity and talking about, you know, looking into how to
break these habitual patterns that do become ironically hardwired for
some survival reason at some point, but get stuck because
(51:15):
the brain wants us to have predictability. They want to
they want to make it easy for us and go
on autopilot, but we get caught in these loops. So
I'm so excited about your book. That's uh, that's that's it.
I think that would solve many, many, many of the problems.
Speaker 7 (51:34):
The world is in that direction anyways. Everybody's shifting and
I think people are looking for meaning or meaning these days.
So if it helps to give you for a person
who needs it to shift to a higher level of
thinking for meaning, so then you know, go for it.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Yeah, And I'd like to just bring in a segment
we have called to Nip It in the Bud where
we do myth busting. And I was gonna ask Seth
this one true serve fiction. Can you make a bong
out of snow?
Speaker 7 (52:16):
Yes? You can, true, true, matter of fact. He did
it last week.
Speaker 8 (52:26):
We did that when we were building the facility back
way way back, you know what I mean. But before
we were licensed, you know, we had there was a
lot of snow and we and my partner Chris and
I did that and took a funny picture of it.
Speaker 9 (52:38):
So we you definitely absolutely can do that.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
How much snow? How much snow do you need? And
walk me through this. I've never smoked from a bong.
I've never smoked, but god.
Speaker 9 (52:48):
We just made you know, it was like making the
snow Man.
Speaker 8 (52:51):
But you know what, we just had to make sure
there was a channel that came down and up and
you know, you didn't need any water in it. Chilled
the smoke, nice, chilled the smoke nice for it. Yeah,
so yes you can. That's funny. Yeah, Wow, I am enlightening.
Speaker 9 (53:05):
We have a passion for cannabis. We you know, we've
enjoyed the process.
Speaker 8 (53:09):
As hard as it's been, we've been, We've enjoyed every
part of the process from you know, from building the
team to building the facility to operating it. Wow, surely
you just try to, you know, have that culture at
two five three where you know, you know, all the
all the tough stuff we keep, we keep behind the scenes,
so you know, you know, we really have a nice
(53:29):
culture there. So people, you know, people enjoy things like that.
Speaker 2 (53:34):
So in closing, did anyone come up with the punchline
to what did you hear about the Broadway producer, the
rabbi and the former that walked into a bar or
walked into a dispensary? Anyone got a punchline?
Speaker 6 (53:52):
Sorry, Maria. In all candor, I did win the British
equivalent of a Tony for Best New Comedy a number
of years ago. I still can't come up with an
answer that's funny for this one.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
I have a few ideas, unless Seth, do you have one?
Speaker 9 (54:08):
No that that's not really that's not my forte.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
No, all right, I think the Broadway producer said to
the dispensary, butd tender, do you have something that's gonna
make me feel like I'm in a chorus loan and
I'm twenty years old kicking my I kick this high
and the bud tenders, Well, let me think about it,
(54:31):
Farmer says, do you have anything that's gonna put me
in the relaxed state I am when I'm in my
cornfield and the wind is blowing and the breezes and
I want to feel that way and the buttender's shore.
We could hook you up there. And then the Rabbi says,
I'm just looking to get a little higher. Alright, I
(54:55):
don't know that's the best I could do.
Speaker 6 (55:01):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (55:04):
Thank you for spending your time with us today on
just saying now. This has been an enlightening conversation touching
on the challenges, opportunities, and evolving cultural connections surrounding the
cannabis industry. Like to recap some key takeaways from today's discussion. First,
we explored the significant barriers that federal illegality presents to
(55:27):
cannabis entrepreneurs and operators who are trying to function legally
in this legally gray space, including limited access to banking
and the burdens of HRUX provisions like two ade as
Alan highlighted. These challenges demand creativity, resilience, and willingness to
(55:49):
take on risk that other industries don't face. Yet, as
we discuss, for those who persevere, there is the potential
to shape and in industry that is still in its
infancy and create lasting change. We also dove into the
operational challenges of owning a vertically integrated dispensary and sustainable farming.
(56:13):
Thanks to sets and Sights, we learned that cannabis is
about more than consumption. It's about storytelling, community and creating
safe and responsible products that reflect care and intention. Sets
artisanal approach mirrors the sophistication of fine lines and spirits,
(56:35):
illustrating that cannabis extends beyond medicinal use and can hold
a place in both everyday life and even special celebrations.
Rabbi Coen brought us a unique perspective on Kosher certified cannabis,
explaining its importance for inclusivity and its role in broadening
the accessibility of cannabis products beyond faith based communities. MAURE
(57:00):
certification represents a gold standard for cleanliness, quality and integrity,
and cultivation and production. We talked about the connection to
Hanika traditions and the question of whether cannabis can facilitate
deeper spiritual pathways who was both fascinating and thought provoking.
(57:21):
As we look forward at the future of cannabis, it's
clear that this industry stands at crossroads. Whether it's crafting
thoughtful regulations, advocating for normalization and legalization, or simply changing
the way people think about cannabis. The decisions we make now,
(57:44):
they're going to have ripple effects for generations. To our listeners, remember,
cannabis is not just a product. It's a movement, guys,
a culture, and for many, a life line. The stories
we shared today are proof of the diverse voices working
(58:07):
tirelessly to navigate this complex industry and ensure it thrives responsibly. Finally,
a heartfelt thank you to our guests, Alan Shore for
your entrepreneurial wisdom, Seth Rutherford for your passion for sustainable
agriculture and a responsible Premium Award winning dispensary. Rabbi Yakov
(58:35):
Cohen for your inspiring perspective on inclusivity and tradition, especially
as the story of Hanukkah inspires in us. All perseverance
in the face of adversity. Thank you for tuning in
to Just Say No on KCAA Radio ten fifty am
one oh six point five FM. Let's continue to rethink
(58:58):
cannabis together until next time. I'm your ost Maria Calabrese.
Stay curious, stay informed, stay festive, and just say no
with a K and a W K and ow Happy Holidays,
everybody happy, and say stay it, Let it glow. Just
(59:18):
Say No is a green bee Life presentation airing live
weekly on Friday afternoons from four to five pm Pacific
on kca Radio and KCAA TV. Archived audio episodes are
on Greenbeelife, greenbelife dot com, iHeartRadio, Spreaker, and most third
(59:39):
party major platforms. For archived videos, check them out on GBLTV,
on greenbee Life YouTube and Rumble. To follow us our
Instagram and Facebook is at just Say No Radio. To
apply to be a guest on the show or for
(01:00:01):
sponsorship and advertising opportunities, go to greenbelife dot com, forward
slash
Doff.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello again and welcome to Just Say No, where we
spotlight the innovators behind cannabis's news, products and the groundbreaking
ideas driving the legal cannabis movement with some of the
smartest minds in the industry. Thank you for tuning in.
I'm your host Maria Calabrese on CACAA Radio ten fifty
(00:28):
Am one oh six point five FM. I'm honor. I'm
privileged to be joined today by an incredible panel of
voices that are as lively as they are diverse. Alan
Shore is an entrepreneur, cannabis investor, and multiple Tony Award
winning Broadway producer who brings his expertise from a variety
(00:50):
of industries to the cannabis space. Zeth Rutherford is the
founder of water Works, providing a sustainable water management system
to the island of an Antucket, and an owner operator
of an award winning dispensary in Massachusetts. Seth joins us
with roots in agriculture since childhood, and Rabbi Yakov Cohen.
(01:14):
Rabbi Cohen is the founder of Whole Kosher Services and
the president of Returning Light, a nonprofit dedicated to the
study of Torah and Kabbalah. He will share insights into
the intersection of faith, tradition, and kosher certified cannabis. Together,
(01:34):
we'll dive into some of the most pressing topics shaping
the cannabis landscape, including what it really takes to start
a cannabis business given the threats and challenges of operating
legally in a federally illegal space green rush or bust,
and most importantly, in the spirit of the holiday season,
(01:54):
we'll explore lessons of perseverance learned from the story of
Hanukkah and the concept of kosher cannabis, what it means
to be kosher certified cannabis. So get cozy, but not
to cozy if you're driving, and get ready to find
out what happens when a Broadway producer, a rabbi, and
a farmer walk into a dispensary. Because the rules and
(02:17):
regulations we establish now at the crossroads of federal legalization
will shape the future of cannabis for generations to come.
So let's dig in and explore just what's at stake.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
By twenty twenty, Bank of America and Merrill Lynch estimate
that will grow to thirty five billion dollars and many
experts believe it could eventually reach two hundred billion dollars
each and every year.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Jo me yaba, I can.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
See so much father, Yon moroses, Yon mollases.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
I'm a better fu who is on a begon. Taken
me a while to get it.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Had to live and cry to appreciate your life and
what you give. His word, when you're holding the when
you hold me so close, someone better and under your skin.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Welcome everyone today's show. I'm looking forward to exploring today's
topics through the lens of innovation, resilience, and Honikah. In Hebrew,
Honikah means dedication, and the holiday celebrates the rededication of
the Temple in Jerusalem in the second century BC, after
a small, but determined and blessed group of Jewish fighters
(03:58):
liberated it from occupying forces. So what does this have
to do with cannabis, you're probably wondering. Well, despite its
legalization in most states, cannabis remains federally classified as a
Schedule one drug, a designation that falsely, and I might add,
recklessly equates it with dangerous substances like LSD or heroin,
(04:21):
deemed to have no medical value and a high potential
for abuse. Yeah, this contradiction creates unique challenges for the
plant entrepreneurs, consumers, and advocates forcing their very existence. They're
very survival against significant odds that affect us all. I've
(04:44):
asked our panel to join us today. I wanted to
start with Alan Shore as an entrepreneur in the space,
to give us an overview of the challenges of starting
a cannabis business in today's legal landscape. Welcome, Alan Hill,
So good to see you again.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
Alan, It's nice to see you.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Also, thank you, thank you for joining us. You're going
to have great insights. But before diving in, I like
you to tell our listeners a little bit about your
entrepreneurial background in your own words, I.
Speaker 6 (05:15):
Didn't realize I was an entrepreneur until somebody told me
I was. So I was always trying to do things differently,
and from the time that I really went to left college,
you know, graduated, until to the rest of my life,
I always thought there are better ways to do things,
(05:36):
and the people that I was working for doing other things.
I thought, well, I'll try it my way. And then
somebody said, well, you're really an entrepreneur, and I said, okay,
Well if that's what you want to call me. So
my background was in music, theater and something that has
nothing to do with music and theater, which is accounting
(05:57):
and finance. But believe it or not, they do go together.
And as a result of that, what I've been able
to do is employ my skills from an accounting and
from a financial background to help create different companies in
the financial services world now the cannabis world. And believe
(06:18):
it or not, the accounting and financial skills that I've
acquired over the years has really helped me in being
a producer in the theater world because it's really about numbers,
and part of that is making sure that you stay
with the budget, that the budget's correct and everything has
done the right way.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
If you've never had the pleasure of being in Woody
Allen's office in New York, over his desk he has
a sign that says its show business right, not show show.
So you are spot on. How do you connect these
skills to this cannabis industry.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
Way you would connect the skills to any industry. Being
in the financial services world is one of the most
highly regulated, least I thought highly regulated industries in the world.
You've got multiple agencies, governmental non governmental agencies are always
looking over your shoulder. You've got all kinds of compliance
(07:20):
issues that you have to adhere to. So the cannabis
business is similar the fact that it's regulated. You've got
compliance issues, you've got the same financial concerns of any
other business. So the skill set that a person, any
person might have in running or starting or managing a business,
can be employed and can be an entrepreneur in any
(07:44):
kind of business, including the cannabis business. And without that
skill set, it's going to be very challenging for anyone
to be successful and really in any business. And part
of that, and the most important part of that, which
is true again for any kind of business, is surrounding
yourself with people that are better than you, that know
(08:06):
more than you, and they're specific whatever it is that
they do, whether it's growing or in the cannabis business
or whostsale, whatever it happens to be, and letting them
take the ball, let them run with it. If they
make a mistake, they make a mistake, but certainly let
them do the things that they do best and stay
out of their way so that everybody stays in their
(08:27):
own lane. And if you allow that to happen. The
chance of success are greater than if you try to
step into somebody else's position or somebody else's lane.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Well, before I dive deep in with you into advice
for starting a cannabis business, speaking of surrounding yourself with
people smarter than you, I am surrounded by it's an
embarrassment of riches. So I just want to bring in
next the rabbi to tell a little bit about his
(09:03):
background in his own words, and what he has to
do with cannabis, and then we'll bring seven and then
we'll dive into the interview with my first question to Alan, Rabbi, welcome.
Speaker 7 (09:17):
Great to be here, very special.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
To have you here because I understand you were in Israel. Yes,
I'd love to have you tell us a little bit
about yourself and your own words.
Speaker 7 (09:28):
Okay, quickly, you know, I was not always like many
people were, not a rabbi before the rabbi. I wasn't
raised religious. I was raised very secular. I didn't become
religious until I went to Israel when I was nineteen
years old, and then I was in a rabbinical school
and spent nineteen years there and then got married, raised
(09:50):
a family, started family and then moved to to Texas,
so and that's when I got involved in being in
kosher food and kosher services, and of course it branched out.
And the quick background story is I had a son
(10:10):
who was diagnosed as having brain cancer. He did pass
away after a year and a half, but during that
time he when he had a relapse, we were introduced
into cannabis. I had already been doing kosher food production
and giving kosher certification to various other industries, but here
(10:35):
was the cannabis industry. My son was. I was trying
to give him cannabis in terms of all of the
research that was done. And so my father and some
friends says, why don't you go and work and see
about making cannabis kosher because this and it has such
medicinal properties. People need it. People are going to be
(10:56):
looking for it, and they'll be much more comfortable if
it's kosher. So that's when I reached out to was
what we spoke Tracy Ryan of Cana Kids other places
in California. I think that's where it started first and
started to make very many products kosher, offering kosher services
(11:17):
until I and then of course I was introduced to
two five to three organic on the on the East Coast. Yeah,
that was great man. Yeah, so you know, I was
really excited to go there and help them out in
terms of getting their kosher certification. It was a really
a lot of fun. It's such an awesome dispensary, a
(11:40):
great place to visit, to drive there, it's just amazing.
So and I always enjoy going and making my usual
routine kosher visits.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Ah, that's amazing, amazing. My condolences for your signe, and
my hats off to you for when western medicine doesn't
have a solution for going beyond. I can't even imagine
as a parent, First of all, going through something like that,
(12:15):
Second of all, having to make the decision to try
cannabis and to have gotten to that point to have
to do that.
Speaker 7 (12:25):
And it was very experimental, like nobody knew really knew
what was going on.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Then, right, you mentioned canna kids, Josh and Tracy Ryan.
They're just an amazing, amazing couple, And of course they're
little girl Sophie who was afflicted with a brain tumor,
and you know, back then, I mean what a mom
will do for their child. Tracy actually was able to
(12:52):
get Cedar Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles to give her
a piece of her two year olds brain tissue. Yeah,
and she transported it herself and in iglu cooler on
a plane to Israel. Could you just tell us quickly
before we bring in the next smart one here smarter
than all of us, Seth, just tell us a little
(13:14):
bit about the difference in how Israel approaches medical Malwana
and Malwana. In the United States.
Speaker 7 (13:22):
It is stricter. It's harder to get a prescription, it's
only medicinal, and have a very tight knit on the
production where it flows and things like that. You know,
it's not so easy you could just walk into a dispensary.
It's it's you know, so there are much a few
more hoops to go through in order to get the medicine.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yes, the hoops aside. It is medically available and has
been for decades. So what they have on the United
States and the rest of the world is a jump
on the research. In fact, it wasn't. Yeah, so they
haven't had that obstacle or burden.
Speaker 7 (14:03):
So they were When we were in Texas with our
son Alisha, we were debating whether to go to California
or Israel, because Israel had the research, but we wouldn't
be able to access it if we Oh, so we went.
We opted to go to California.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yes, So it's you know, legalization. It impacts so many
people from so many different walks of life in so
many different ways.
Speaker 7 (14:31):
We're all, we're all we're trying to crawl out of
the stigma. You know, we're trying to help people crawl
out of the stigma, which is really what I'm about,
you know, because to make it available and offer it
to be kosher, you know, medicinal wise. You know, still
a lot of people in my circles are still very
much against it, even though it's inedible, even though it's
(14:54):
you know, medicinal. They'll let it, but usually buy and large.
You know, they still have of that stigma there.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
We've got them out and to climb. But I'm glad
we're doing it.
Speaker 7 (15:07):
The Maccabees are about right.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
That's right, And I'm glad against the big Fed, that's right.
Speaker 6 (15:17):
South. I have I have a question for the.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Rabbi Okay, sorry Seth oh, my goodness, guy, Alan.
Speaker 6 (15:23):
When Moses went up to Mount Sinai in the Burning Bush,
what was that bush made of and where he saw?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Oh my goodness, when the god Alaska, oh a Alan,
when the god spoke, there was smoke. So absolutely so
set Set. You have your roots is having been working
(15:55):
on a farm since the age of eleven years old.
Somehow the laws that was legal. But all right, don't
get me started. So and you have this background and
knowledge and sustainable agriculture. You're the founder of water Works,
having come up with a water management system to serve
(16:16):
as islands like the island of Nantucket. And you are
a co owner and operator of one of Massachusetts's most
premier award winning pharmacies, two five to three Pharmacy. That's
pharmacy with an F. So tell us a little bit
about yourself and two five to three Pharmacy. And Allen,
(16:39):
I want you taking notes because we're going to do
cannabis the musical.
Speaker 6 (16:43):
Okay, we actually did something like that called Flight over
Sunset a few years ago that just didn't work. But
it was it wasn't cannabis, it was other drugs.
Speaker 8 (16:58):
All right, Well, Maria, make the start start off by
thank you for having me. I very much appreciate your
time and being able to join I'm a Massachusetts resident
born and raised in Western Mass and Western Mass you know,
as you as you stated, is really all about agriculture here.
I live here right here in Hadley and Hadley, mass
(17:21):
is you know, has has I think the second best
top soil in the world behind San Joaquin Valley in California.
And I ended up marrying into a farming family as well,
farming anything from tobacco to asparagus to corn. And you know,
they do have some cattle kicking around for all the
excess you know, vegetables that they don't sell.
Speaker 9 (17:40):
And so when.
Speaker 8 (17:42):
I was twenty one, I had an opportunity to move
down to Nantucket with my partner.
Speaker 9 (17:46):
So, you know, Joe and I moved down to Nantucket
and started water works.
Speaker 8 (17:50):
And we're very fortunate to move to a place like
Nantucket and have an end and you know, work for
some probably you know, some of the the wealthiest peace
people in the world that really care about their landscapes
and care about their homes.
Speaker 9 (18:03):
And really gave myself an education.
Speaker 8 (18:05):
There, just you know, learning, you know, learning all the
different aspects of you know, building sustainable landscapes.
Speaker 9 (18:11):
I was, I was, I was elected to what was
called the Article sixty eight board. What the Article sixty
eight board.
Speaker 8 (18:17):
Was, We were trying to find a way to limit the
nitrogen and phosphorus use on Nantucket so that we would
not pollute our estuaries. And we and through that board,
we we developed a b MP which is the best
management practice and currently I believe it still is the
strictest in the state on nitrogen use. And we lived
with the nitrogen use on Nantucket to three pounds per
thousand and so that we really try to educate, you know,
(18:40):
landscapers and the tradesmen and women, you know, how to
properly apply fertilizers so that you are not you you're
you're keeping a healthy landscape, but you're not damaging you know,
the environment around you. And you know, cannabis was always
you know, I always use that. I'm a very energetic
individual and I always use cannabis as a way to
(19:02):
calm down, in a.
Speaker 9 (19:03):
Way to just melow myself out.
Speaker 8 (19:06):
And I've always had a real passion for it. And
from there, you know, in two thousand and eight came around,
we really had a passion to get into it. You know,
we're builders, we're in the landscape trade, we understand you know,
plant water maintenance, and we ended up you know, finding
very very fortunate enough to find Out and Marsha as partners.
(19:26):
And I think that's one of the really things that
separates two five three is the partnership that we were
able to bring together because we were able to bring
professionals from all different you know, walks of life, lawyers,
financial people, construction people, landscape people, and really kind of
bring everyone together to run a very complex industry that
(19:48):
doesn't have data, you know, to look up and to
see what to do. It's really something that you know,
you have to really make good decisions and see them
through and pivot on a dime if the decisions that
you made seems.
Speaker 9 (20:00):
To be going in the wrong direction.
Speaker 8 (20:02):
And so, you know, we we ended up partnering Chris
and I partnered with Alan and Marsha and we built
their own facility. We operate our own facility. So, you know,
a very unique company, and we really worry about quality.
Worry about bringing a quality product to the table for customers,
something that a customer could find relief in whatever.
Speaker 9 (20:23):
They're looking for.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Well, I'm you're in a perfect spot when to segue
from quality we're twenty minutes into the show, and in
California it is for tyth So every show at four twenty,
we have a segment called quick Hits. So we're going
to get a quick hit where I'm going to ask
(20:46):
the Rabbi to drop a knowledge bomb for us. And
the quick hit that I'm going to ask him is, Rabbi,
what is kosher animates and how does it become certified?
Speaker 7 (21:01):
So you know, talk about what kosher is. First of all,
you have to understand kosher does not mean blessed by
the Rabbi. Okay, there's a serious laws, the criteria that
comes from the Five Books of Moses, covering an entire
spectrum of different foods, everything from meat to dairy, fish, fowl, bugs,
(21:24):
and grapes. So all of these different levels of food
or areas of food have different criteria that meets kosher standards.
Like your animal needs two signs to be a kosher animal,
right Alan, you know which two signs those are.
Speaker 6 (21:40):
It has to its cud and it has to have
its cud and have a cloe hoof, Yeah, ing ing thing.
Speaker 7 (21:52):
We should mess for the knowledge barbi the day Okay,
I came from a very religious home and became secular later.
So yeah, so that's an animal has to have those signs.
And even if it has those signs and it's not
properly ritually slaughtered, it's not kosher. So if it cow
(22:15):
was not killed in the ritual slaughter, away, even though
it's a kosher animal. So anything of that cow or
any derivative of that which gets into cannabis because of
a gelatin. For the most of the industry uses gelatin
either from a pig or cow, that not kosher. That
to make their gummies. Okay, of course many are making
(22:39):
from pectin. That's a different story. But let's say dairy
we don't mix milk and meat. You know, we have
an issue of bugs. Now, just a zero win on cannabis.
The plant itself, like any other plant or vegetable, has
no problems with being kosher, like an apple or a banana.
The only issues with certain vegetables are fruits. Is a
(23:01):
predominance of insects because we're not allowed to eat a bug.
According to the Torah. We break six five or five
commandments if we eat a bug. Okay, and if you
know there's bugs in there, you gotta wash it and
check it before you eat it.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I were a friend of green bee.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
Yeah, green bee. I was wondering was it a bee
that's green or the okay? So the plants themselves. I
did go to Mendocina. We gave a Kosher certificate to
a farm there. I did check there and they have
these very little insects called thrips in the buds. Talk
(23:42):
about the flower tops. So I asked a very big
rabbi about it, and he says, well, because most of
the people are burning it because they're smoking it, so
the bugs are getting burned. So there's no problem of
the bugs if they're eating it like in a salad
which some people I've been prescribed in California.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Raw yes, raw form, So then you have an issue.
Speaker 7 (24:06):
It has to be cleaned of bugs and don't even
know if it can be because of the stickiness of it.
So therefore, predominantly mostly so the flower tops really don't
really need a Kosher certification, but it helps because of marketing.
Because don't forget, kosher is not just for religious Jews.
(24:26):
Kocher kosher could extend to Muslims, vegetarians, vagans, and health
conscientious people looking for that. There's a third set of
eyes looking on this product to guarantee that it's safe. Okay.
So that's why people in a grocery store, sixty percent
of the things in the grocery store are have a
(24:47):
Kosher symbol on it. Sixty percent of the items in
any grocery store now in the United States, and people
will always choose an item with a Kosher symbol over
an item without a kocher sole because they know, oh,
there was another pair of eyes.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
It's a marketing, it's a gold standard. It's a gold standard, correct.
Speaker 7 (25:06):
So then yes, absolutely, So then when you now moving
on past the bugs. So then when you process the
bugs into oil, so then you get into solvents and
things that come in contact with the plant. So you
have to make sure those solvents are coming from kosher sources.
The biggest solvent that's used most likely today is is ethanol.
(25:29):
Now ethanol, everybody will instantly think it's it's corn, it's weed.
It's not necessarily. There are ethanols that are made from
grapes which present a kosher issue because we have a
very strict rule about our grapes, even grape juice. It
has to be squeezed from an observant jew until it's bottled.
For sure, wine because we use it in rituals all
(25:51):
the times, the rabbis made very strict decrees that it
has to be a Jewish wine. So ethanol could be
made from grape. Ethanol could also be made from whey,
which is a cheese, which is also a big, huge
kosher issue. So we have to make sure that the
ethanol or any solvents that are used in order to
turn to make the oils have to come from kosher sources.
(26:14):
And then when you go onto that, let's say you're
when you're making your intervals, like any other kosher material,
all the materials have to be kosher. The chocolate, the sugar,
the flavorings, the gummies, the pectin. All of those items
have to meet certain certain specific kosher criteria in order
to be kosher okay. So, and then there's a course
(26:36):
to maintain the equipment. So that's the kosher industry in
a nutshell.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Oh, it's fascinating. And what's really fascinating is I'm going
to just start a movement that everyone in Congress, everyone
in nor the decision makers have to get bar mitz
foot because you guys were able to work this out
with Jewish law, but America I don't know. So thank you,
(27:05):
my goodness, say it can, there, it can. There's always
a solution, which brings me to the cannabis. Running a
cannabis business Alan. The cannabis industry is estimated to employ
over a half a million people right. It includes approximately
twelve thousand licensed retail locations. It's estimated to earn thirty
(27:30):
billion dollars a year, more than the Baseball League, National
Football League, and NBA combined. Yeah, it remains classified as
a Schedule one substance, presenting passive challenges that, like you said,
startups and other industries aren't faced with. So my question
(27:53):
to you is, given the current legal landscape and the
challenges that they present to running cannabis business, who is
making all the money? Is anybody making any money? And
what inspired you to enter this space?
Speaker 6 (28:10):
All right? So the first question is really easy to answer.
Who's making all the money? The regular the state for
with the that and the fads. They're making all the
money because they're they're taxing cannabis companies on income that
they don't really have, and the tax that cannabis companies
(28:35):
have to pay is different than any other industry in
the United States. So that's that's so that's the easy
answer to your question. What's what inspired the question? Was
what inspired me to do this? Yes, well, not understanding
what the federal regulators were going to taxes on off,
(28:56):
and the idea that with any business, if you can
run it efficiently and you you can mitigate the tax
issues that you can, and you have good partners and
you know what you're doing, then you can you can
make it work despite the tax burden. So that that's
really what it was. Because I had no clue, I mean,
(29:20):
not a scintilla of an idea of cannabis up until
the time I met Seth and Chris.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Nothing, none of us did. I can't tell you how
many people in the state of California didn't vote for
League Station or say they wish they hadn't.
Speaker 6 (29:37):
Yeah, So it's you know, it's a business just like
show business or the or the legal business, or the
broad you know, it's the entertainment business in general, and
it all has its quirks, but the cannabis. Cannabis business
is probably, at least in Massachusetts, the most regulated industry
in the entire state. With the highest burden of taxation.
(30:00):
And that's just not it's not basically not fair.
Speaker 7 (30:04):
And I thought California was higher.
Speaker 6 (30:08):
I don't. I don't think so. I think we're talking
about federal taxes.
Speaker 7 (30:13):
In federal state feder Wait a minute, Wait a minute,
wait a minute, Federal schedule one. Correct, Yes, yet you're
right able to tax it. Excuse me, isn't it considered
to be federally what did what? What? Group? Group one
or level one?
Speaker 6 (30:31):
Yeah? Right, yeah, so it doesn't allow you to take
deductions for in the ordinary course of business, Without getting
too technical, inter Section one sixty two ordinary business expenses
that every other business is able to take, accelerated appreciation
and other things that businesses are entitled to, and therefore
(30:53):
you're paying tax on literally phantom income. And that's just
I just yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Two eighty originated in nineteen eighty one during the Reagan administration.
I'll tell you, Rabbi and Seth, I know Alan, you
know this. I'm not sure if you do, set But
he came about when a convicted cocaine trafficker, aren't you
in court that he should be allowed to deduct his
legitimate business expenses? The ZIP ties for his cocaine trafficking, etc. Etc.
(31:23):
Et cetera, and despite his business being illegal, he was
able to deduct business expenses. So two eighty eight came
in response to that, Congress established the rule which prohibits
anyone involved in trafficking controlled substances from deducting their business expenses.
(31:47):
And as long as cannabis is on that list of
controlled substances, it can't deduct any of its expenses such
as becoming certified, kosher storage and transportation, banking, franchise fees, packaging, marketing,
none of it is tax deduct dimetric bills. There you go,
(32:07):
So I could speak for I think a legal cannabis
operator could face a federal tax rate of around seventy
percent in addition to the state and local taxes. And
on top of this, in Los Angeles there's a five
percent excise tax.
Speaker 9 (32:25):
So a need the analogy there.
Speaker 8 (32:28):
You know, if you're running a retail store, and if
you did a million dollars a year in business, and
a half a million dollars was the product that that
retail store bought to resell, that retail store would pay
tax on a half a million dollars. The only thing
you would be able to duct is the product you bought,
so you would you would pay tax on your labor.
You're parking, you know, your your snow plowing anything above
(32:51):
and beyond. And so, you know, in the early days
when the margins were high, and I'm talking the early
days of Massachusetts when we opened in nineteen margins were high.
There wasn't a lot of retail stores. We were able
to pull pull profits. As this industry continues to condense
and get saturated, it's really become catastrophic for companies.
Speaker 9 (33:12):
And you know, they're just not able to.
Speaker 8 (33:14):
Survive on margins because you need exponential margins to continue
to pay The federal government.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
Told you he was smart.
Speaker 7 (33:23):
Is it still getting saturated the market in your opinion?
Speaker 9 (33:27):
Well, I think you know, I mean, I mean the
answer to that is I stutter a little bit.
Speaker 8 (33:32):
I think we're hopefully on the verge of coming the
other way.
Speaker 9 (33:36):
You know, we we.
Speaker 8 (33:37):
Were down to like four dollars and fifty cents a
gram on the retail side.
Speaker 9 (33:41):
And when we get down to four.
Speaker 8 (33:43):
Dollars a gram, producers can't produce it for two dollars
a gram and stay live. And so, and I'm talking
to retail at four point fifty. So when the retail's
four and these retail stores are keystoning, we're very close
to the bottom if we're not there yet. And just
in the last month we've seen some very big operators
close their doors in Massachusetts, and I think that that's
(34:05):
going to continue. And so, you know, to get back
to you know what Almon was saying about cannabis, You
know how how it's how it's very unique, can't you know?
Instead of you know a lot of businesses where you're
you're looking to increase revenues, in cannabis, you're looking to
reduce costs. You run that business on cost base and
you don't take risks of costs are associated due to
(34:28):
the taxes because those costs turn into income to you
and you have to pay more phantom income and so
it's a very difficult business. So it's really a lean
and mean business model to stay alive and depthly, like
I say, you know, people ask, well, how do you
survive in cannabis? And it's factious, right, but it's like, well,
(34:49):
don't write a check because every check you write his
income to you, even though you're giving it to someone else. Okay,
so it's you know, it's really you know, it's it's
kind of the you know, it's as you really have
to be very of how you operate, and you know,
at two five three, we've always taken the approach where
we don't have a huge wholesale department and we don't
(35:09):
kind of have a ton of marketing because a lot
of companies get themselves in trouble where they they spend
more to make less and you really have to watch
your bottom lines and be conservative and concentrate on yourself.
Speaker 7 (35:24):
You should have a blessing. You should have a blessing
and continued blessing for continued success and growth.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Well Alan and Seth and even with the rabbis blessing,
you gave the best advice. You have to go low
and slow. You have to be leaning mean. You have
to be able to survive legalization. And it's it's really
a conundrum because you don't have access to financing that
(35:52):
other startups have. Many financial institutions aren't going to want
to touch it if the government's deeming it illegal aria.
Speaker 6 (36:02):
I'll give you an example of how bad it is.
I had an American Airlines advandaged City Bank card, and
I got about a year and a half ago, I
got a notice of them saying we've canceled your card
and I said why, and they said, because you own
an interest in a cannabis company and it's federally illegal.
(36:24):
I said, oh. At the same time, they're also city
bank banks the State of New York's cannabis business. So
it's like, okay, well, why can't you do one or
nothing the other. But that's how bad it's become at.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Times it is. And you know, necessity is the mother
of invention. So anone who can survive this should be
on the cover of Fortune five hundred. I mean, it's
going to take minds as bright as this panel. And
it never hurts that the Rabbi's blessing. But all these
(36:57):
entrepreneurs that jumped in believing, hey, this is going to
be the next Silicon valley, it's the next big giant
among growth industries. Guys. It's a green revolution, not a
green rush. So if you're thinking of going into it,
be prepared to join the revolution.
Speaker 6 (37:17):
Well, I'll go one step further, Maria. Unless you're at
least in Massachusetts, unless you're vertically integrated, you cannot make
money period. It's just impossible.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Can you explain to our listeners what a vertically integrated
license means?
Speaker 6 (37:34):
I can now because Seth taught me, so I'm gonna
let Seth my teacher, explain it better than me.
Speaker 8 (37:40):
So a vertically integrated facility, a vertically integrated means that
you do everything yourself, where you have your own cultivation, manufacturing,
and your retail outlets. And so it's really in Massachusetts,
it's really coming down to the verticals are able to
you know, weather this storm much easier than stand alone
(38:01):
standalone retailers. If they're at a very good location, they'll
do okay. Standalone cultivators and standalone manufacturers, unfortunately, are taking a.
Speaker 9 (38:11):
Beating right now.
Speaker 8 (38:12):
And it's really not fair because the wholesale rates, like
I explained before, are so bad at four dollars and
you know, at two dollars and twenty five cents if
you want to, if you want to look at it
that way, they're.
Speaker 9 (38:23):
They're virtually not making anything.
Speaker 8 (38:25):
And and a lot of these and a lot of
the small companies are mom and pop companies like two
five to three that have invested everything they have to
get into this, and you know, there a lot of
them are tied to all sorts of leases and personal
guarantees and it's in you know. And another really unfortunate
fact in the cannabis industry is there is no bankruptcy.
You go, you go into receivership and you lose everything
(38:47):
you own. And and I think that's why a lot
of people hang on longer than one might think they would.
But it's you know, it's it's it's definitely not all
roses behind the scenes. And the states, the state always
and the federal government always, you know, puts out how
much sale, how many, how much sales there are, but
(39:08):
it really doesn't equate to the to the profits behind
the scenes.
Speaker 6 (39:12):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
And I'd like to just move on before turning to
the strength that we can glean from the story of
Hanukkah'd like to move on to how all of these
federal inaction, all the competing state regulatory down to the
local level, all the different federal agencies commission to protect consumers,
(39:35):
How all of this regulatory game of pypon effects innovation
and at the end of the day, the consumer getting quality,
let alone kosher certified cannabis. What's the impact that this
is going to have.
Speaker 7 (39:55):
Well.
Speaker 8 (39:55):
I think that's probably the same for any industry, as
you know, desperate times or take people take desper or measures,
and so I think that's really the unfortunate fact. And
you know, people need to stay alive, they need to eat,
they need to feed their family, and you know when
when when when when when you get into a situation
like that, you know you you probably at times aren't
putting out the best products due to you know, do
(40:15):
those type of reasons. So it's very unfortunate. I think
anytime you have an affluent business, you know, you know,
those type of things are much easier to accomplish, and
so you know, it's it's it's it's a it's it's
unfortunate where where where we are right now, as people
are just trying to survive, you know, for two five three,
(40:36):
you know, we don't break any we don't try to
break any rules or break any rules, and we really
just try to stick with quality because as hard as
it is to continue to stay on that line, eventually
it will pay off. But it's just it's a grind
and you know, we're edging our name into a piece
of stone right now, and we're definitely not done yet,
(40:56):
but you know, if you do it right, and you
continue to do it right, there will be light at
the other side.
Speaker 9 (41:02):
Nothing last forever.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Yes, and if you have regulations that facilitate and energize
and promote your being able to do it right. Here's
a not so fun sacked Rabbi. You were talking about
Los Angeles. There are more weed stores in LA than Starbucks,
but more than seventy percent of the LA dispensaries are illegal.
Speaker 7 (41:29):
Amazing, and there's no crackdown on them.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
No crackdown. That's with all the taxes that the legal
guys are paying. Their question is where is the enforcement.
Where are those tax dollars going. They're not going into enforcement,
And it's I want to try to get Mayor bass
on and speak and just regulators to We're trying to
(41:55):
understand why the police, I'm sorry, turn a blind eye
and not to mention it's it's it explains why huge
amount of the biggest legal cannabis companies valued it up
to three billion dollars recently filed for bankruptcy.
Speaker 7 (42:18):
Is there any movements out there as far as let's say,
like fixing the regulations, deregulating or.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Anything like that on the National Cannabis Industry Association, which
could use support. It is the National Cannabis Industry Association
out of Washington, DC, but they have a strong presence
in Los Angeles. They're trying, but they have their lobbyists.
The multi state operators have their own lobbyists, and the
(42:50):
industry is splintered. So finding guys like Seth and Allen
in yourself who have an interest in high quality premium
up to the gold standard of kosher cannabis.
Speaker 7 (43:04):
Heart has to be in it your heart. The heart
has to be that's right, it does.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Yeah, So speaking of heart, Rabbi, the story behind kosher
cannabis a lot of heart. I'm sorry it came to
you through such a tragedy with your son, but can
you talk to us about the story of cannabis and
(43:32):
maybe some lessons that people in the cannabis industry.
Speaker 7 (43:37):
One very, you know, we had a very there's a
very big Hasidic rabbi lived about two hundred years ago.
He was two d and fifty years ago. He's called
the balishemtve. He was like a really big innovator in
terms of Jewish practice. He completely just gave an in
depth way that how Judaism can be approached and everybody
(43:57):
can have a direct personal relationship with God. And he
had one of his followers was also a tremendous scholar,
and he said this about an interesting question that maybe
people that might have contemplated, was if you look in
the world and most of the medicines of the world
they come from herbs, correct, would you say, absolutely, listen
(44:23):
to this, where does that come from? Or why is
that so? Okay? So here's a little story. On the
third day of creation. We know that God created the
world in six days. Rested on the seventh and the
third day of creation. God created the trees and the
(44:43):
plants and the grasses. Three day three he created dry
land and oceans, and then he created the trees with
bearing fruit and grasses. Now listen to this, follow me,
Follow me. He told the trees, you guys, cannot mix
the mango. Three does not tango with the avocado. Right,
(45:08):
No grafting, no mixing, no blending.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
I very woke.
Speaker 7 (45:14):
No, he wants he wants a mango to be a
pure mango and an avocado to be a pure avocado.
We don't want a mango avocado. Okay, All right. Man
came and came and they started me anyways, the trees
were told not to mix the grasses. He didn't say
anything to oh oh, Creator didn't tell him.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Are you serious?
Speaker 7 (45:38):
And the grasses are left with this what are we
supposed to do? Right? And so they made this kind
of a fiori argument, this kind of logical syllogism argument.
They say, well, if trees, which are normally separate, they
don't really get grow close to each other. And they
(46:00):
were told not to mix, so us grasses, which were
all over the place all the more so we shouldn't mix. Okay.
So they made this syllogism and conclusion. They had a
little board meeting, right, they had a hall in favor, okay,
and they all agreed we're not gonna mix. So h
(46:21):
Shen says, oh my gosh, you guys came up with
that all by yourself. Okay. And because you guys came
up with that all by yourself, I am now going
to give you the gift of healing. There's much more
in a way to explain it, but I'm gonna explain
it right just enough for them. So therefore God bestowed
(46:43):
upon all the grasses and herbs the gift of healing. Now,
the interesting thing is there's this one grass that got
a bad rap, poor little cannabis. The stone, the stone
that was cast away by the builders becomes the cornerstone.
That's the rule. The grass that was cast away by
(47:07):
the builders becomes the cornerstone. So things that things were
Nobody would consider that cannabis would have medicinal purposes. But
it has, I think greater medicinal purposes than ever.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Right, So that's why it's such a tragedy that it's
trapped in Schedule one.
Speaker 7 (47:25):
It's getting its way, it's finding its way here. Listen,
who would ever have thought thirty years ago that this
would such a thing would occur when California became legal.
It was like a huge like what who would ever think? Right?
It had a bad rap, right and slinger? Right was it?
J Paul Getty? Who has it? Forgot? Who was rant Hurst? Rat?
(47:49):
William Randolph Hearst. They gave it a bad rap, right,
But you know, the stone that was cast away by
the builders becomes the cornerstone. So you so those who
will hang on with heart with lave, like the Macabees did,
they had to fight against the Greeks were much more
greater or much more numerous. If you want to talk
about hanukkah, okay, they had to have to have your
(48:10):
heart has to be in it. You have to be
coming with a mission of you know, it helps a
lot of people. And that's why I got into the
kosher to make it kosher. A lot of people get helped.
It helps a lot of people. I get calls emails
all the time, where can I find it? Where I'm here,
Where can I get it? So it's it's it's a mitzvah.
(48:33):
If it's a mitzvah and you're certain and there's a
higher reason, it gives us the strength to go on.
Right seth Alan, you should be blessed to the strength
to continue and be and God will grant you that
strength and you'll continue to be successful to hold on.
There were two places in Massachusetts which I was giving
(48:54):
Kosher certification to close down. They couldn't hold it, like
you said, closing their doors.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Rabbi, you talked about the medicinal mitzvah. Do you think
cannabists can open up spiritual pathways? You know you talk
about Leo, light from above, lighte from below, and then
within in the I have a.
Speaker 7 (49:16):
Question, and I don't. I don't have an answer for you,
but I have a question. All rabbis are supposed to
answer questions with questions.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Right, yes, right?
Speaker 7 (49:25):
Isn't that the rule?
Speaker 2 (49:26):
It'socratic method? Yes.
Speaker 7 (49:29):
Well, you know, if it has medicinal why would I
shed make it? Why would God make it psychoactive?
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Ah?
Speaker 7 (49:39):
You know, if it has to have a medicine and
it's going to relieve pain or whatever, aches or whatever,
help people sleep, why does that have to happen? So
you know, I think in the back of my head
and I'm just thinking out loud. You know, we have
to start the world has to start thinking differently. And
(50:00):
sometimes people are so stuck in their patterns of thinking,
which goes into my book. My book has to do
with how our thoughts create angels.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Oh, congratulations, congratulations.
Speaker 7 (50:11):
I think it's called it's called the Jewish Guide to Manifesting.
That's the name of the book, Jewish Guide to Manifesting. Right,
So our patterns of thinking sometimes need to shift, wouldn't
you agree? Sometimes if you're stuck in a problem, you
need to see it from a different angle. Once you
see it from a different perception.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
That's the whole point of the title of this show.
It used to be on the war on drugs. Just
say no, and oh and I'm trying to say just
say no. Know. There's a doctor Menetesh Gurn He's in
Robin Carhart Harris's lab at U see San Francisco. He
was on episode three and he was there studying the
(50:52):
effects of psilocybin and cannabinoids on the brain and on
bioplasticity and talking about, you know, looking into how to
break these habitual patterns that do become ironically hardwired for
some survival reason at some point, but get stuck because
(51:15):
the brain wants us to have predictability. They want to
they want to make it easy for us and go
on autopilot, but we get caught in these loops. So
I'm so excited about your book. That's uh, that's that's it.
I think that would solve many, many, many of the problems.
Speaker 7 (51:34):
The world is in that direction anyways. Everybody's shifting and
I think people are looking for meaning or meaning these days.
So if it helps to give you for a person
who needs it to shift to a higher level of
thinking for meaning, so then you know, go for it.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Yeah, And I'd like to just bring in a segment
we have called to Nip It in the Bud where
we do myth busting. And I was gonna ask Seth
this one true serve fiction. Can you make a bong
out of snow?
Speaker 7 (52:16):
Yes? You can, true, true, matter of fact. He did
it last week.
Speaker 8 (52:26):
We did that when we were building the facility back
way way back, you know what I mean. But before
we were licensed, you know, we had there was a
lot of snow and we and my partner Chris and
I did that and took a funny picture of it.
Speaker 9 (52:38):
So we you definitely absolutely can do that.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
How much snow? How much snow do you need? And
walk me through this. I've never smoked from a bong.
I've never smoked, but god.
Speaker 9 (52:48):
We just made you know, it was like making the
snow Man.
Speaker 8 (52:51):
But you know what, we just had to make sure
there was a channel that came down and up and
you know, you didn't need any water in it. Chilled
the smoke, nice, chilled the smoke nice for it. Yeah,
so yes you can. That's funny. Yeah, Wow, I am enlightening.
Speaker 9 (53:05):
We have a passion for cannabis. We you know, we've
enjoyed the process.
Speaker 8 (53:09):
As hard as it's been, we've been, We've enjoyed every
part of the process from you know, from building the
team to building the facility to operating it. Wow, surely
you just try to, you know, have that culture at
two five three where you know, you know, all the
all the tough stuff we keep, we keep behind the scenes,
so you know, you know, we really have a nice
(53:29):
culture there. So people, you know, people enjoy things like that.
Speaker 2 (53:34):
So in closing, did anyone come up with the punchline
to what did you hear about the Broadway producer, the
rabbi and the former that walked into a bar or
walked into a dispensary? Anyone got a punchline?
Speaker 6 (53:52):
Sorry, Maria. In all candor, I did win the British
equivalent of a Tony for Best New Comedy a number
of years ago. I still can't come up with an
answer that's funny for this one.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
I have a few ideas, unless Seth, do you have one?
Speaker 9 (54:08):
No that that's not really that's not my forte.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
No, all right, I think the Broadway producer said to
the dispensary, butd tender, do you have something that's gonna
make me feel like I'm in a chorus loan and
I'm twenty years old kicking my I kick this high
and the bud tenders, Well, let me think about it,
(54:31):
Farmer says, do you have anything that's gonna put me
in the relaxed state I am when I'm in my
cornfield and the wind is blowing and the breezes and
I want to feel that way and the buttender's shore.
We could hook you up there. And then the Rabbi says,
I'm just looking to get a little higher. Alright, I
(54:55):
don't know that's the best I could do.
Speaker 6 (55:01):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (55:04):
Thank you for spending your time with us today on
just saying now. This has been an enlightening conversation touching
on the challenges, opportunities, and evolving cultural connections surrounding the
cannabis industry. Like to recap some key takeaways from today's discussion. First,
we explored the significant barriers that federal illegality presents to
(55:27):
cannabis entrepreneurs and operators who are trying to function legally
in this legally gray space, including limited access to banking
and the burdens of HRUX provisions like two ade as
Alan highlighted. These challenges demand creativity, resilience, and willingness to
(55:49):
take on risk that other industries don't face. Yet, as
we discuss, for those who persevere, there is the potential
to shape and in industry that is still in its
infancy and create lasting change. We also dove into the
operational challenges of owning a vertically integrated dispensary and sustainable farming.
(56:13):
Thanks to sets and Sights, we learned that cannabis is
about more than consumption. It's about storytelling, community and creating
safe and responsible products that reflect care and intention. Sets
artisanal approach mirrors the sophistication of fine lines and spirits,
(56:35):
illustrating that cannabis extends beyond medicinal use and can hold
a place in both everyday life and even special celebrations.
Rabbi Coen brought us a unique perspective on Kosher certified cannabis,
explaining its importance for inclusivity and its role in broadening
the accessibility of cannabis products beyond faith based communities. MAURE
(57:00):
certification represents a gold standard for cleanliness, quality and integrity,
and cultivation and production. We talked about the connection to
Hanika traditions and the question of whether cannabis can facilitate
deeper spiritual pathways who was both fascinating and thought provoking.
(57:21):
As we look forward at the future of cannabis, it's
clear that this industry stands at crossroads. Whether it's crafting
thoughtful regulations, advocating for normalization and legalization, or simply changing
the way people think about cannabis. The decisions we make now,
(57:44):
they're going to have ripple effects for generations. To our listeners, remember,
cannabis is not just a product. It's a movement, guys,
a culture, and for many, a life line. The stories
we shared today are proof of the diverse voices working
(58:07):
tirelessly to navigate this complex industry and ensure it thrives responsibly. Finally,
a heartfelt thank you to our guests, Alan Shore for
your entrepreneurial wisdom, Seth Rutherford for your passion for sustainable
agriculture and a responsible Premium Award winning dispensary. Rabbi Yakov
(58:35):
Cohen for your inspiring perspective on inclusivity and tradition, especially
as the story of Hanukkah inspires in us. All perseverance
in the face of adversity. Thank you for tuning in
to Just Say No on KCAA Radio ten fifty am
one oh six point five FM. Let's continue to rethink
(58:58):
cannabis together until next time. I'm your ost Maria Calabrese.
Stay curious, stay informed, stay festive, and just say no
with a K and a W K and ow Happy Holidays,
everybody happy, and say stay it, Let it glow. Just
(59:18):
Say No is a green bee Life presentation airing live
weekly on Friday afternoons from four to five pm Pacific
on kca Radio and KCAA TV. Archived audio episodes are
on Greenbeelife, greenbelife dot com, iHeartRadio, Spreaker, and most third
(59:39):
party major platforms. For archived videos, check them out on GBLTV,
on greenbee Life YouTube and Rumble. To follow us our
Instagram and Facebook is at just Say No Radio. To
apply to be a guest on the show or for
(01:00:01):
sponsorship and advertising opportunities, go to greenbelife dot com, forward
slash
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!