Guy Felicella Humanizing People - Season 3 Episode 8

We discussed harm reduction, recovery, policies and the humanizing of people who use drugs. The need for the continuum of care, trauma and much more.

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Welcome to another episode of Just Uson Justice and other things. I am
Scott Jones here with my big bigbrother Dan Jones, and we finally get
to have a guest because we werejust saying before we hit started that we're
fucking getting kind of tired of talkingto each other, just the two of
us, so it's lovely to havea guest with us today. And we
have guy Fellaicella. I think Isaid that right, which is a lot
of practice off off record here,and as we said before, we have

(00:27):
nothing planned, but maybe you couldtake us back because the tiny little bit
I do know is you have avery interesting backstory kind of way back when
whatever way back when works for you, and if you can kind of start
us off in your history and thenwe'll work our way to now on what
you're doing now. Yeah, Isay make sure it is recording because it
didn't pop up on my phone.We're on the phone. Yeah, it's

(00:49):
not recording on this. Yeah,it's not recording on the zoom. We
don't do a video because neither oneof us is pretty enough. So we're
at it on going on the phones. We're good. Yeah, Well,
thanks for having me, guys andyou know, my story started off as
a as a young kid, youknow, dealt with you know, some
trauma and verbal abuse, physical abuse, a lot of alcoholism. I had

(01:14):
tough upbringing in the sense of myparents you know, were there physically,
but emotionally you know void describe mychildhood as you know, cloudy was a
chance of you know, thunder andlightning, very unpredictable, and you know,
I struggled with their dysfunctionalism, whichgave me anxiety, depression and led
to self hatred towards myself. Andyou know, in school, I was

(01:38):
often called hyper, difficult and hardto manage. I had undiagnosed learning disabilities.
It wasn't found out until later onin life. You know, back
then in the eighties, you wereeither smarter you were dumb, and I
was just dumb. But it reallydeveloped my negative image towards myself as a
human being. And so how notonly I viewed myself from hearing the things
that I heard, but also howI viewed the world world too was negative.

(02:01):
You know, I there's a bigdifference between you know, us being
happy and distracting ourselves from sadness.And I felt that as a child,
I was just constantly distracting myself fromsadness and looking for ways and means to
really kind of, you know,develop some coping mechanism of how I felt
now, way before drugs ever cameinto the picture. You know, I

(02:23):
play sports and I was I wasn'tthe best player or anything like that,
but I was one of those playerswhere coaches would describe as a as a
player who played with a lot ofheart, determination, and a lot of
grit, which was kind of thepositive influence in my life from coaches that
were giving me these you know,positive affirmations that that made me feel good.

(02:44):
It's finally somebody who's putting some healthydeposits in guy's life instead of you
know, just saying you know,what's wrong with you or why did you
do that? And you know,but only being in those game environments,
your practices are very short lived,and you know, hour r hour there,
and you're backing your circumstances, andreally I started to just realize that,
you know, I had no controlover changing the dynamics of my household,

(03:06):
and so you know, as ayoung kid, you know, I
started thinking about ending my life,and I took matters into my own hands
and really started to run away fromhome and then I thought, you know,
at that time, you know,I found the greatest thing I ever
found in the world, which wasstreet drugs and just you know, the
ability to take away the way youfeel and give you the ability to function

(03:27):
through life. And what no twelveyear old would understand is that, you
know, the drugs that saved mylife as twelve years old, we're going
to progress into drugs that we're goingto eventually try to end my life.
And so, you know, thestruggle continued. I got involved with gangs
and was made a war to thecourt. So I was ran through the
foster care system as well, inand out of juvenile detention centers. You

(03:49):
know, gangs were grooming me asa young kid, and you know they
were much older than me, andyou can call that, you know,
whatever you want, And yes,they didn't really care. They had a
purpose for me. But you know, that's looking for love and acceptance in
the places that he's supposed to getit. If he can't find it there,
unfortunately, he's going to gravitate toplaces where he can find it.
And you know, they took careof me, and it was really one

(04:11):
of those relationships that you know,I could not understand the trajectory that was
unleashed in my life when I becameinvolved with them, you know, twenty
four hour gang squad task for surveillance, rival gangs, you know, just
the threat of life, you know, constantly all around you. And as
a young kid, you know,you feel that you're bulletproof and you're not

(04:33):
going to happen to you, andyou don't really care either, and you
know, and I just spiraled outof control, which developed into my substance
use disorder, and then I startedto gravitate into the downtown east side of
Vancouver. So was there anybody inthat time other than well, you kind

(04:54):
of allude to coaches who are kindof a positive influence that were maybe trying
to pull you in the other directionaway even that uh somethings abuse and gang
lifestyle. Was there anybody who madean impactor was kind of just more fleeting,
you know, I've always had people, it seems, strategically placed in
guys life through the right moment,right time, and right opportunity, whether

(05:15):
it was to change something. Thenit did help me in this sense understand
more of what I was involved in. But I think, you know,
the course that I was on wasn'tgoing to be derailed regardless. I mean
maybe maybe if I went back.And you know, I call this all
the time. You know, thegateway to addiction is broken childhoods. You

(05:39):
know that's that's really the factor.And all it's not drugs, it's not
you know, it's it's specifically thatthat's suffering. And like the first person
I ever met that treated me likea like a mother figure was their name
was Sandy Goobie at a juvenile detentioncenter, and you know, she just
had the ability to connect with meand treated me like a you know,

(05:59):
a person, and that that reallymeant a lot. But I was already
in it thick, and there wasnobody stopping me before that or helping me
or trying to give me another pathway. Really didn't have much in the services
for people back then either, right, you were just kind of left to
your own devices. How old areif you don't mind me asking now?

(06:23):
Yeah, fifty five turning fifty fivein August? Okay, so we're I'm
just about fifty. He's fifty threein August. So what kind of all
the same age group as you're talking. It made me think about a whole
bunch of things, and one mademe think of it. I won't say
his name, but a friend ofmine who went down a similar path to
you. He was younger than me. We boxed together, and unfortunately a

(06:45):
few years back he actually died ofa drug poisoning. And I watched him
go through this journey of this kidwas you know what I'm talking about.
This kid was a phenomenal boxer,Like he was just a great kid,
and he just got sucked in andhis childhood was real tough too. And
you know what, I unfortunately watchtoo many people lose their lives, friends
of mine and people that I wasconnected to, to drug poisoning. And

(07:08):
I'm just I'm always inspired when Isee your stuff because you talk about how
harm reduction basically saved your life andnow you have beautiful children and you have
a wonderful marriage, and you arean activist and you're just an inspiration.
Oh, I appreciate it, andyou're right, like that harm reduction thing

(07:29):
is Listen, when you're rivaled intoaddiction, it's not an easy task to
break free from. You know,not only that you have unaddressed to sidal
issues that haven't been addressed forever.I mean, we're talking about homelessness,
we're talking about you know, accessto services, We're talking about access to
medications to help you go back tothat drug supply. I mean, all
of these things rolling down the downthe hill like a big boulder that's just

(07:54):
going faster and faster. And youknow, addiction is a chronic relapsing condition.
I've gone into treatment over a dozentimes, and you know I could
stay sober while I was in treatment, but when I left, I went
back to using. And if therewas no harm reduction services underneath that,
I mean I'd be dead. Andthe sad thing too, is now the

(08:16):
drug supply when I was using itin twenty twelve and twenty thirteen, when
I overdosed those six times, it'snow like six hundred percent worse in a
ten year timeframe. So it iscatastrophic compared to where it is. And
it's just so unpredictable that if wedon't actually invest in harm reduction services,

(08:43):
people aren't going to recover well.And I don't know if you if you
listen to Jelly Rolls speech to Senate, I don't know if you ever had
an opportunity to listen to that speechto Senate. When when do you use
the comparative of a seven thirty sevencomplaint crashing once a week? And I
don't think that people understand that hemade a great comment. He goes because

(09:05):
these people are just drug users andno one cares, right, and that's
unfortunately how the systems are feeling forpeople. I think that no one does
care, and there's become this thisdivisive message it's either harm reduction or recovery,
not at all blending the fact thatyou need harm reduction to get to
recovery, especially now with the poisondrug crisis that we have. Before I'm

(09:28):
gonna park that for a second,just because I want to hear a little
bit more of your story from soyou kind of left. You were on
the lower east side of Vancouver.So we have a lot of people from
outside Canada listn't this, Well,that's the kind of lower Mainland of Vancouver
and it's a very, very theroughest stretch of road I would suggest in
all of Canada, and would rivalsome American cities for roughness of all.

(09:48):
Can you take us back to thatpark where you find yourself there and what
happens next. Yeah, you know, from like eighty three to ninety three,
as a juvenile, high was inand out of the downtown east Side
of Vancouver, you know, obviouslytrying to get sober and you know,
change my life, and you know, I could get off drugs and things
would get better. I was goodat getting sober, never good at staying

(10:11):
sober, and you know, tryingto do things that were productive in society.
You know, get a girlfriend,you know, like get a job,
try to do these things. Andsadly, for me, you know,
I had a few things in place, but what didn't get better was
how I felt about myself as aperson. So it always led me back
to using the drugs. The traumawas really the primary problem, not the

(10:33):
drugs. But once I from ninetythree to twenty thirteen, I basically never
left the two block radius of thedowntown east Side unless I was going to
know treatment or jail. But Iwas just you know, consumed in that
area and got back involved with organizedcrime, selling drugs, using drugs,

(10:54):
and you know, really trying toyou know, really numb myself from society.
I didn't care if I lived,and I didn't want to die,
but I also didn't care either.And you know what I had to go
through in those twenty years was likeI survived the HIV h crisis in the

(11:18):
nineties were one and four people hadcontracted HIV AIDS in the downtown east Side.
I survived that overdose crisis in ninetyeight. I survived, you know,
decades of being homelessly being in doorwaysor stairwells or couches or hotels or
wherever. You know, you survivedthat. I survived being in and out
of prison for years, which isa really mentally and physically punishing condition as

(11:43):
well. Survived the revolving door parle, you know, bail prole violations,
just the back and forth. Survivedfive ostel my light has bone infections,
four in my left leg, onein my back where I had to relearn
how to walk again, and thensurvived six overdoses in twenty twelve, in
twenty and thirteen, so literally policyreally threw everything at me to crush me,

(12:07):
and it almost did. You know, My last overdose is February eighteenth,
twenty and thirteen, at the supervisedconsumption site. And then the nurse
Sarah, who actually now works inAlberta. You know, I lay motionless
on the floor, and when Iwake up, I never remember overdosing.

(12:28):
It's that fast. It's just sofast you don't even see it coming.
And it's not like something comes onwhere you're like, oh no, it's
just done. And I just rememberopening my eyes. And she was visibly
emotional, and she described that momentas like we had done everything we could
and the overdose wasn't responding the wayit usually would. Guy wasn't coming back,
and they were more worried that Iwasn't going to come back. But

(12:52):
when I did, and she wasvisibly emotional, I said, why are
you crying? And she said becauseI care, and I just you know,
a moment of humanity and vulnerability.I just burst into tears on the
floor and I just told her rightthere on the floor, I said,
you know, I don't want todo this anymore, and I don't know
how to stop, but I knowif I keep doing this that I'm going
to die here. And she helpedme get to the detox upstairs in the

(13:16):
service, and you know, reallythe rest is really history after that.
You know, one thing led toanother, but you know, without many
moments, but that moment in particularwas the moment that that I knew that
I had to change. So Igot a couple of things, one to
question, one kind of observation.I think one of the important points of
what you said there too is youhad, repeatedly before you got that moment,

(13:41):
try to kind of get sober,get off the drugs. I think
some of the common misconceptions concept Ican't even speak in more conception is that
folks in those circumstances want to bethere and they're too Well, they would
fucking quit if they could just quit, and why would they not? Right,
there's that kind of like arm's length. Well, they know they're doing
and that's what they want to do, So that I think is exactly.

(14:03):
People don't want to live like that. People don't want to have to do
meth so they don't get raped inthe middle of the night. People don't
want to be sleeping in Ebonton whenit's mine's thirty and sleeping outside. So
I think that's an important point.And that's the question to you is what
was it internally that made you surviveall that stuff? What do you think

(14:24):
about your internal dialogue or some kindof power or strength or purpose that led
you to come out of all ofthose storms. Yeah, it's a great
question. I mean I get askedthat quite a bit, and honestly,
where I think about my childhood,it really prepared me for the worst was
yet to come. And I thinkwhen you look back at the journey of

(14:46):
everybody's life, that perseverance and whatthey've had to battle through throughout their time
as a testimony to the success thatthey have later on. Right, And
my childhood prepared me for that.Being involved with gangs prepared me for that.
Like I was a gritty, grindingsurvivor type guy, the guy that
nobody wants to play against, youknow, that type of person, And

(15:09):
I kind of had those assets,which are really actually good assets, just
used negatively. And finally I hadthe right guidance, don't listen. You
can go under treatment and recovery allyou want. Stay there for three months.
I couldn't care. Like, theproblem is what happens after treatment,
Like they're listen, you can't recoverunless you have a desire. If there's

(15:31):
no desire inside a human being,it doesn't mean that that desire is non
existent for their whole lives. Butif you don't have the desire at the
moment to go do something different,then guess what, it's not going to
change. But if you do havethat desire, desire comes with has to
come with other things, and that'sopportunity. And if desire is matched with
opportunity, then it can be successful. When I say opportunity, I'm talking

(15:54):
about housing, and I'm talking aboutemployment, and I'm talking about people showing
you how to go get your ID, get a driver's license. I'm talking
about, you know, helping youget a job, all these other factors.
If that opportunity isn't there, I'mtelling you, even with the best
intentions of desire that a person has, it gets defeating and you go back

(16:15):
to what's familiar. Well, that'sit. Reintegration pieces so important, whether
you're reintegrating from a recovery system oryou're reintegrating from prison. Right the lack
of opportunity that a lot of thesefolks have when they walk out of those
jail doors. Like I worked inI worked in policing for twenty five years.

(16:37):
I worked in corrections three and ahalf, two different parts of my
life, and I watched I watchedthat. I watched guys get released.
I watched guys get released on byPro Boarder Canada to being released to shelter.
How are we expecting this individual whohas been battling his mathe addiction,
that individual and you're just going toput them right back in the middle of

(17:00):
it and then expect success. AndI think the system, and I think
the divisiveness of the system forgets onething. It forgets that we're talking about
human beings at the other end ofthese things. And you know the work
that you do, and and Ireally loved you were comparing bars and super
ris consumption sites which I which Ihave I had done in the past,
and I was like, that's Isaid, what didn't close during the pandemic

(17:22):
liquor stores and and the grocery stores, because there's a lot of functional alcoholics
out there that are that are doingtheir best. And there's the other thing
I think, and I don't knowif you if I would like to you
comment on this is the belief thatthe billion dollar a year drug industry is
built off of the backs of theunhoused and sex workers. When drug uses

(17:44):
is rampant in all kinds of differentcommunities, and I think that's something that
people need to realize as well.Oh, all walks of life. I
mean, man, I'm telling you. I mean, take it from a
guy that sold drugs to everybody,and everyone I wasn't my client. Weren't
just the homeless population, you know, and they weren't spending the money either.

(18:04):
It was the people that had likehigh powered careers that you know.
I'm telling you. So, yeah, we have this assumption that it's just
homeless people, or sure, homelesspeople use drugs, but mess, I've
never been in a community worldwide,and I've spoken in many communities globally,
and I mean they're bank tellers,lawyers, doctors, sheriffs, court registry

(18:27):
people. I mean, you know, everybody, for some reason or another
uses something. Where I should say, in most circumstances, people are using
something. And sadly, you know, when you compare what you were comparing
with COVID in the bars, isyou're right it's they couldn't shut down liquor

(18:49):
stores because it would have been youknow, people would have been smashing liquor
store windows. You would have forcedpeople to have to or you would have
forced people to actually make their ownbooze, which would even be more disastrous.
And you know, so there's somany factors that go into it.
But yet for the unregulated drug market, we rely more on organized crime than

(19:14):
you know, then the solutions thatare in front of that need to be
in front of us. And that, to me, that's the part that
angers me because I don't support organizedcrime killing twenty two Canadians every day,
like that's what they do, right, and we don't offer the people a
better alternative. They only have oneoption, you know. And when you

(19:38):
talk about what you hear about thewords the safer supply, diversion and everything
else that goes on, Well,if you look at diversion, it's existed,
you know, for decades, andyou know, pushing it or scapegoating
it on just to you know,some drug users is just classic. It's
just classical. When organized crime cangrab shipments that dialogue it from wherever the

(20:02):
heck they want it and plug itall over the world, or plug any
narcotic wherever they want. They're global, I think we get lost in that,
and I think unfortunately it's become moreof a political issue and a lot
of political opportunism is involved, andsadly, it's off the backs of people
struggling, and you know, sopeople are going to continue to die well
and globally like everyone thinks it's justit's just spent. No, that's that's

(20:26):
the problem. When it comes todragonable Fendyl is obviously one of the most
lethal, and then it keeps gettingseems to get more lethal. But fifty
five percent increase in the manufacturing ofcocaine since twenty twenty worldwide, and cocaine
seeping into places and countries that ithadn't a sept it hadn't been in before,
and so you see all of thesethings and then and you know,

(20:48):
it was interesting. I had Iwatched that what was that show called with
Michael Keaton, Dope Dope Sick.Yeah, I watched that show Dope Sick
and realize that as a beat Coopone hundred and eighteenth Avenue, which is
an area in Edmonton from ninety sevenStreet to seventy six Street that has significantly
at the time when I was walking, was heavily gang involved in trans folks

(21:08):
and over one hundred and forty sixworkers. And I started watching people switch
from crack cocaine to this non addictivedrug called oxy content oxy content, and
I started, I was there atground zero and started seeing people dying,
started to die then, and thatwas with a regulated drug. So the

(21:32):
fact is that we can do waymore with that kind of harm reduction and
access to give people access to safesupply. And I'm a huge advocate for
safe supply, but I'm also ahuge advocate for like your story is,
it's not just one thing, it'sso many things, and that's what it
can't be just one thing, AndI think that's what you do such a
good job of kind of spreading thatword to policy makers, whether they listen

(21:55):
to you or not. Can wejust back it up because I want to
make sure that everybody understands what harmreduction means. So if you could kind
of go with your subject matter expertiseof what harm reduction actually means, because
I think there's going to be awhole bunch of different opinions, and the
opinions may not necessarily base in fact. Right, well, you know,
harm reduction is simply just a practiceand a concept and a principle that reduces

(22:18):
the harms caused by the unregulated toxicdrug market. Doesn't eliminate harm, but
it definitely reduces the harms. Youknow, I could say this, if
somebody came to the supervised consumption siteand used ten times in that facility,
the chances of them dying is youknow, not going to happen. However,
the one time they use outside ofit, they're at a heavy risk.

(22:41):
Anybody's at risk if they use aloan. That's harm reduction it And
then if you look at it,harm reduction doesn't it's not the problem for
homelessness. It doesn't solve homelessness,it doesn't solve public safety, it doesn't
create you know, homelessness. Uh. It's basically just specifically to reduce the

(23:04):
harms of drugs. And if youthink about you know, bike helmets or
seat belts. Right when you ridea bike and you fall off your bike
and you smack your head on thehelmet, you've reduced that's harm reduction.
You've reduced to harms. But doesit stop crashes from happening. No,
So crashes are still going to happen. So it's a really you know,

(23:26):
a reducing the harms aspect of things. But people associate it with you know,
oh, well, why would somebodystop before it's enabling, and it's
not. It's really it is enabling. It's enabling people to live and to
have them to fight for another dayto possibly figure something out that's better eventually.
And you know, unfortunately, peoplehave created this division in our society

(23:51):
of either a harm reduction or recoveryand it's and seriously, it's done by
a lot of the far right recoveryadvocate only, abstinence space programs only that
have been pushing this narrative. Andit's really unfortunate because you know, you

(24:12):
don't have to go and say thatthis is the cause of it, because
listen, then I could flip thatstory back and say to people, it's
like, well, then why aren'twe blaming recovery because it's a chronic relapsing
condition for keeping people sober, wewouldn't do that, So why then would
we blame harm reduction? Unaddressed socilof issues as the biggest challenge. An

(24:33):
unaddressed toxic drug market has been thechallenge. But that's what harm reduction does.
It just reduces those harms. Yeah, and I thing to boil it
down to I'll say this in arough way, if it was one of
my kids who was addicted and theyneeded to Benlock's owner narcan five hundred times
give them alife, fucking have atit, five hundred and one, five

(24:55):
hundred, seven hundred. I don'tcare how many times. If you have
someone your child, mom or dador whatever, you want them kept alive
and hopefully like you have that inFebruary of that year, in twenty thirteen,
did you have that epiphany like,Okay, I'm done now, I'm
gonna start on that path because theyhave no one's choosing because they want to
do this. And those who think, folks, it's just easy, you

(25:18):
don't have to, well, they'remaybe don't use your phone. Then let
me tell you, show me howyou can not be addicted to something as
something as simple, because these phonesare fucking meant to keep us addicted as
well. And people have right you'relike, okay, don't when you get
up in the morning, don't touchyour phone. It's almost impossible. And
I grab my phone in the firstthing, and I know I shouldn't be,
but when you don't do it,it feels weird and offward in your

(25:40):
days, kind of mucked up.So it's just alost instead of sitting on
high and casting judgment, throwing stones. Let's tack a minute as harm reduction,
buy youself and nothing else, becauseI think that's part of the problem
is some of the narrative is safesupply and supervised consumption, and that's it.
That's their choice, and we justneed to support that. That's not
the answer either, because that's gonnajust keep people. That is the enable
in keeping people in that cycle.And it's not fair to those people to

(26:04):
not go, hey, okay,you're sober. Here, I have to
unlock some on you a whole bunch. Do you want to talk to this
person? Can I get you someidea and start that path is a continuum
of care all the way through torecovery fifty times. If it takes fifty
times, whatever, that's I thinkthe more compassionate way of looking at things.
Yeah, and too. Harm reductionas well, is often overlooked by

(26:26):
its ability to connect with people whoare struggling. You're not making connections with
people using in the back alley.Nobody's talking to me. Yeah, but
if you have a facility that youcan go to, you start to build
relationships with people, and then thosepeople listen I've I'll tell you something,
I've never recovery. People weren't comingto the downtown east Side to tell me
about recovery. Was harm reduction.People telling me like, hey, guy,
you know what, like, hey, this is possible. Let us

(26:48):
help you again. Okay, I'llgive it one more show. I'll give
it another try. I'll give itanother try. I'm always the guy trying.
And I don't think in our societywe celebrate that people are trying.
They're just not getting the results thatthey're looking for. But instead of us
celebrating that we're trying, well,just shame people instead. That's the killer.
That's shame beat piece. Like Ihave a friend and she's struggling again

(27:11):
right now. She was sober sevenyears and then COVID came along and had
an impact on her and isolated her, and then she started using again.
And unfortunately she's still using. Andunfortunately drug dealers aren't good people sometimes,
and they put fentanyl inside the cocaineas well, and now she's got an
addiction to to fentanyl. So andbut I felt so bad when she I

(27:36):
don't know how many how many daysseven years is it's a lot of days
and she would talk about and thenshe's but she loses that and then she's
just one day sober again, andshe feels shame because she let people down
from the seven years and that thoseshame based programs are not super effective when
when someone falls and slips and ratherthan you know, rather than picking up

(27:57):
up, we make you feel badand we of your coinback or whatever,
right like those kinds of and youlook at the treatment. You look at
the percentage of of those treatments,the success of the treatment that you're you
know, your right your right wingpolitics is a six percent success Right in
narcotics anonymous eight percent, and alcoholicsanonymous and two percent. In the facilities

(28:18):
that they want to build is thesuccess rate. You're building a bunch of
thing for two percent success rate,and you look at it. I'm not
sure if you're familiar with Harold Johnsonat all. He passed away two years
ago. Now. He was alawyer, and he came up with a
thing called Camp Hope on Montreal Lake, northern Saskatchewan, because he said,
we don't have a crime problem,we have an alcohol problem. And it

(28:38):
was a land based healing and itwas seventy eight percent successful for individuals who
took that program, and I thinkwe need to do more of that.
We need to give more options becausewhat works for you doesn't necessarily work for
me. And we have some peoplethat are build in building policies and different
provinces that our lived life experience people. But just because you have I've had

(29:00):
that experience doesn't mean that your trajectoryand what you did is going to be
right for everybody. And it's likeI use the argument it just because someone
has cancer doesn't mean they're an oncologist. Right that lived experiences is super important.
We also have to realize that wehave to have a myriad of on
that continuum of care for helping peopleone hundred percent. Yeah, the recovery

(29:22):
industry too as well. And thesame with people with lived experience what worked
for them, whether it was lawenforcement and a restaurm's room in prison and
they got their life together. Theythink that should be applying to everybody.
That is so incorrect. It's notsomething that I know that you know,
there's a thousand different ways to doit. And you know what I tell
you. The truth too is Iknow a lot of people right now who
are using fentanyl. Who would goto recovery treatment if they could smoke cannabis

(29:48):
while they were in recovery treatment.And I'm like, to me, I
said, well, that's like,hey, we should have a facility like
that, because if that stops youfrom doing this, isn't that a good
thing? And I think, youknow, unfortunately, this that abstinence only
narrative is not a real world solutionbecause it's not as high as people would

(30:12):
think. And you don't walk intothe front door of a treatment facility and
walk out the back in your lifejust changes and everything gets gravy. I
mean, I kept going back tothe dove, and it wasn't until I
understand the pieces of the puzzle ofwhat I struggled with childhood trauma, undiagnosed
learning disabilities. And once I waskind of armed with that knowledge, it

(30:34):
started to make sense of why.I just thought, you know what,
listen, maybe I'm just destined todo this until I do die, you
know. And then once I startedto understand the stuff that I wasn't willing
to look at, which is traumabecause it was so painful, you know,
once I'd been able to start chippingaway at it, it became a

(30:57):
lot easier to treat the addiction.And the one thing when you talk about
the shame piece about shaming people whoare using drugs, essentially what you're also
doing is shaming them for the reasonwhy they're using the drugs, which is
the trauma behind it. And Ididn't need you to shame me any more
than me making a mistake. Imean, I make a mistake. I
want to jump off a bridge,right I don't need you to pile on

(31:21):
now, you know, I needyou to support me right now and tell
me it's going to be okay andtell me like, hey man, you
did really good. And one ofthe things that I always tell people when
they relapse from recovery, if theystayed two weeks, three weeks, three
months, I could care less.They tell me, you know, hey
man, you know I went backand I'm like, you know, I'm
like, well, hey, howlong did you stay sober for two weeks?

(31:47):
When was the last time you weresober for two weeks? Never?
Well, hen, that's amazing.Like, you know, you have to
flip the script on people because youknow how it feels already. And when
I do that, they'd be like, well, yeah, I go,
dude, two weeks, that's fantastic. Next time, who knows, maybe
it's three weeks, maybe it's amonth, maybe it's even longer. But

(32:07):
that's really good man, that success. How did you feel when you were
there with those two weeks, Well, you know, it wasn't bad.
I mean, you know, Ieat some good food and you know,
there's some good people to talk to. You. You have to keep the
flow going for people to remember,oh, yeah, you know what,
Yeah it was okay man, Yeah, I'll give it another shot, you
know. And that's where you havethe conversations that lead people back to treatment.

(32:29):
We don't have those conversations when youshame them. They people always remember
how you made them feel. Man. They're never coming back to you if
you shame them. Yeah. Andwe're biologically hardwired to find the negative.
That's what, through evolution got usto not eat that fucking berry or not
go walk past that tiger down andget killed. It's a focus on the
negative. And then that translates tonow where and again, folks who are

(32:52):
in the vulnerable states are living inthat sympathetic fight flight system all the time
because they're constantly, like you said, you're constantly waiting to get stabbed or
beat up or overdose or whatever,like you're never able to actually rest.
So of course we stay in thatsympathetic, nervous system activated state. Of
course we focus on the negative,but to consciously reframe that, like you

(33:15):
said, and go, dude,you've never fucking done two weeks over,
that's amazing. And then that's yourlittle, tiny baby foundation. And then
maybe next time it's three or fourweeks, and then maybe next time it's
whatever. And that's how that stuffbuilds. And I'm lucky enough that I
get to teach yoga in a residentialtreatment facility for men, and it's a
little bit like teaching yoga on apirate ship, like there's because it's me,

(33:37):
it's all dudes. They're all rough, they are, and so we
got really my nervous system likes beingthat space, and they like grunt and
grown and burnt and burn and it'sawesome. But they're such great there's such
a rawness to them, and they'resuch awesome individuals who will tell you exactly
what they think. Right, they'renot. There's no sugarcoating and bullshit.
If they like you, they do, if they fucking don't. They fucking

(33:57):
don't. And out of the whateversixty guys there, there's usually whatever ten
issue do yoga, and the otherone is don't. It's all good if
you want to be in the room, but they're still billing. It's a
one year program, and of coursethere's people who are there more than once,
because addiction, by its very nature, is going to be that,
especially with the way rougher substances thatare out there right now. Yeah,
hundred percent. You know, it'sinteresting when you were saying that, it

(34:20):
reminded of me. My therapist istelling me like, God, well what
did you do before? What didyou enjoy? And I was like,
I mean I kind of lost somethings. So I was like, oh,
well, I mean I used tocollect sports cards. I used to
like doing that as a kid.I like playing sports. And she's like
why you you know, why don'tyou collect sports cards again? And I

(34:42):
was like, oh, maybe maybeit's something i'll take a look at,
you know, And I started toand it became became a hobby. It
even I remember one time being intreatment when the guy's like, Hey,
it's Friday night. Guess what we'redoing tonight? I was like what.
He's like, we're going bowling,and I was like bowling. Ooh,
the f goes bowling. And he'slike, we're gonna do bowling now,

(35:02):
We're gonna do tenpin bowling. AndI was just like, ah, it's
just mandat where everybody's coming. AndI went and I had a freaking last
I mean, it was actually alot of fun and it started my I
was like going ten pin bowling nowand now I take my kids bowling.
So it's like, you know,when you actually you think about so when

(35:24):
you're talking about the negative aspect ofthings, so we're so exactly hardwired just
to say that's not going to work, that's stupid. Why would I do
that? Trying something new is somethingthat I really have to embrace and recovery.
Even if you haven't done it before, or even if you did it
and didn't like it, it's alwaysgood to keep trying these things, to
try to find something that makes youlaugh. And that was one of the

(35:46):
things that did. And after thatday it's a valuable lesson too to learn
like that because I was like,Okay, you know what, I'm not
going to shoot my mouth off aboutsomething where I haven't done it in a
long time, or haven't done itat all. I'm gonna try it,
and if I don't like it,I don't have to go back and do
it again. And trying something newdoesn't have to be just when you're recovery.

(36:06):
It could be as a kind ofa way of looking at things.
Like my kids got into climbing,like in the indoor boulders, and this
body is not what goes to climbing, but I go anyway. I'm terrible
at it. My wife looks,says, I look like a fucking King
Kong. I might as well beswatting airplane from the top of the thing.
And it's all these skinny little twentyone year olds like spider monkeys.
But it's so fun and you can'tleave. You don't leave in a bad

(36:28):
mood, right, like you justhave to buy. We took our we
took our kids to the birthday partyand we did the climbing, that climbing
on the wall with the you know, the scraps and the cables, and
oh man, it was it ishard work. I was sore the next
Yeah. Yeah, it's like doinga hundred pull ups and I don't do

(36:49):
a hundred pull ups. No,uh, so I'm gonna take it.
So you've obviously graduated quote unquote fromuh where you were kind of a dark
space where you were. So whatdo you I know, you've down zone
and you've alluded to speaking engagements.What does that exactly mean? Yeah?
So I basically, you know,I have my I work for the health

(37:14):
provider here in BC, so,which is I work on co creating harm
reduction services and new recovery services.We've we created the I helped co create
the Recovery Community Center in Vancouver,which is you know a place where people
can go and get you know,groups and art therapy and learn about recovery
and different recovery aspects and models andjourneys. And so we have this which

(37:36):
has really been a huge success forpeople who are trying to discover recovery and
also for people who have finished treatmentand have a landing spot after of an
outpatient program. And then you know, obviously for me, I you know,
share my story openly and honestly I'vespoken in over you know, one
hundred schools educating kids on prevention,and you know, trying to share my

(38:00):
story and the hopes that they don'tfall down the same path that I did,
and if they do, you know, hey, listen like it's it's
okay. We can always help andsupport you get through this, you know,
and Galas Recovery Services Medical. Youknow, I really speak in a
lot of events, public safety eventsas well, just really sharing my story

(38:23):
of overcoming addiction, mental health challenges, homelessness, gangs, prison and you
know, surviving and how I andwhat I do today. And really that's
the biggest thing for me in mylife is really education. I think people
need to understand the complex challenges thatwe're involved in in our society. And

(38:46):
you know, hearing it from aperson that survived it has been really well.
And you know, one of thegreatest gifts that I have after every
school talk that I do is thatI have a lineup of kids that you
know, I want to share theirstory. That's truly humbling for me to
have kids open up about their ownstruggles and whether it's them struggling, a

(39:07):
friends struggling, or their parents struggling, there's somebody struggling, you know,
and it's it's been a very rewardingjourney and I've you know, just been
able to find that that purpose thatwas often eluded throughout my life. It's
it's the first or second day ofJuly today, and which last month was

(39:29):
Men's Mental Health Month and your opennessand on this podcast we talk about mental
health a lot because both of ushave had therapy and we've had our own
journeys and struggles and whatever. Butit's amazing what a story like yours can
do to open up and humanize thatside of things. Right like all of

(39:50):
a sudden, if you think aboutit, if you'd have died on one
of those overdoses, those kids thatyou have wouldn't be here, like they
would not exist. And the youknow you're here for a reason, and
your story is very, very compelling. It's also good when you're talking to
kids and you're so honest because alot of times young boys suffer in silence

(40:15):
with their own trauma because we're afraidto speak about it because it's weak and
we feel weak, and we're told, you know, you know, you
have to be a certain way,and then when you're a certain way,
then you're told that toxic masculinity isnow you're bad because of what we've taught
you to be. The whole time. And Scotty's talked about this before too.
We do the worst things in theworld. We take little boys and

(40:37):
we that are want to run andleap and jump, and we stick them
behind a desk in a school,and then when they don't pay attention,
they get called disruptive and they getcalled you know, all the things.
Yeah, and when you said thatabout your life, that's me I was.
I was a disruptive kid. Iwas the kid that they pulled out
a class and put into the resourceroom because they told my parents that I

(40:58):
had a low IQ you know,and tested it. They just came up
with that idea and I was madeto feel stupid by the system, and
so I really identify with that whenyou said that, yeah, that's honestly
for me. When I was diagnosedwith ADHD, I remember the tears just
streaming down my face because I feltstupid my whole life. But you're never

(41:19):
going to share that with anybody.And when I said that, I remember
the therapist just like almost snapping itright as quick as it came out of
my mouth. It was like,no, you are not stupid. You're
actually one of the smartest people I'veever met in my life because of how
you've had to survive for so longwithout knowing. And it really brought me
to a place of like being akid and hearing all the negative things at

(41:42):
school. That diagnosis proved everybody wrongbecause I believe those lies for so long,
man. And that's a tremendous amountof shame for a kid to carry.
And so one of the things withkids too is that you know,
kids main quest, one of thebig questions not about drugs either. It's
about guy, Well, my anxietyever go away? And you know what

(42:07):
I say to them, To me, I hasn't. So my anxiety hasn't
gone away. But that doesn't meanthere's something wrong with you. I will
tell you this, I've gotten betterat managing my anxiety. You're already aware
that you have anxiety. I didn'teven know what the word was back then.
So your leaves and bounds ahead ofwhere I am. And I said,
look, you're a young kid tryingto figure it out. There's a

(42:30):
tremendous amount of shame that we've projectedonto our younger people by how we talk
about these issues, how politicians talkabout it, the rhetoric you know that
is crippling people from reaching out anddriving them into isolation, and if they
do struggle, they are going touse drugs alone. I share that drug

(42:51):
users aren't bad people, they justhave challenging circumstances. I had a kid
come up to me in a schoolsixteen years old, his counselor, and
he never said he's said this before. He said it to me. He
said, I just want you toknow saying that drug users aren't bad people
really meant a lot. My dadwas a drug user and he died in

(43:13):
twenty twenty of an overdose. AndI was just looking at him, going
like, oh my god, man, I'm so sorry, and he goes,
I don't tell people that. Itelled him that he died of a
brain anderson and I was like,oh god, big hog man, and
just said, dude, man,thank you for sharing that. And listen,

(43:35):
your dad did love you. Andhe said, I know he did.
He just didn't get to recover fromit. And you know, this
kid's not even using drugs, andhe's carrying stigma and shame with him and
he's so young, and I just, I mean, I still think about
him to this day. I hopehe's okay. You know, all these
things, these stories that I've heardfrom people, is not something that I

(43:58):
just get over the amount of deaththat I've witnessed in my life. People,
people I broke bread with, goodpeople that just had challenging circumstances and
struggles. They're gone, and youknow, you it's really hard to put
into words just how sad that is, and you know they're not coming back,

(44:19):
and you miss them, and it'snot something that I'll ever be able
to shake, even though my lifeis great and I have a good life
and all that, but those areone of the dark things that I often
reflect about as well, is thatI miss a lot of people that are
no longer around. When your anxietywould be related to the life you had
and all you survived, your nervoussystem that it was supposed to do and
protect you, and part of thatprotection is wrapping you in that blanket of

(44:43):
like, holy fuck, we've gotto keep your eyes open. I don't
know what's around that corner, andnow it's all you can't think your way
out of that. That's not howit works. Your body's telling you the
story your or your body selling thetruth. Your mind will tell your story
where you have to eventually just beable to talk to it. And this
is not advice, but this isfor me of how I've worked on my
own stuff is okay, I reallyappreciate you. You're looking after you.

(45:05):
But we're good. I promise youwe're gonna good. And I can't walk
or can't talk me about it.I need to probably go move, walk
in the trees, go get sunlightof my eyes, going to cold water,
all those kind of things. Andfor me, that's what's kind of
metabolized that it moved it through alittle bit. Yeah, one hundred percent.
I'll tell you, you know,you don't survive on the street like
I did, not be known asa tough guy. I was a tough
guy. There's no question I knewhow to survive the street. You know,

(45:30):
people on the street used to justsay with me, it was just
fuck around and find out that's whatpeople used to say. That's people saying
that about me. I mean,I was a tough guy, tough exterior,
you know, and you know itwasn't a guy I'll apologize later.
I won't give you the chance.And unfortunately, you know what it was

(45:50):
was I'd put up this wall aroundme as a protection, like you're saying
this anxiety, my body, mynervous system did what it did to protect
itself. And you know, Ihave a lot of regret from the way
I tell people. If they comeup to me and say, hey,
man, I knew you in thenineties, I immediately apologize something like I
must have done something to him.We're like no, actually, you're pretty

(46:12):
nice to me. And I waslike wow, like okay, that's cool.
But you know, for the majorityof my life, when you're surviving,
you know, that's what you haveto do. And you know on
the street too, it's you know, like I tell people, it's like
there's there's two types of people.You're either going to be taking advantage of
or people are just going to leaveyou alone. And I wanted people to
leave me alone. I want peopleto even think about remotely coming after me

(46:37):
because it wasn't going to work.And I'd fight, and you know,
you do that a few times infront of people, and people see that
and they're like, Okay, don'tmess around. This guy will go He's
not going to be pushing around it. You know, that life you get
so wrapped up in, you know, and when you try it. When
you leave that life to create anew life, that life comes with you.

(46:59):
I mean my wife you used tosay like he was like a gorilla,
like you know, like a chinabullet a china shop. He's just
like raw. And you know,my wife, credit to her, was
the one that really taught me howto live. You know. We'd get
pulled over for speeding and I'd be, you know, fighting with the officer
as he's trying to give a ticketand my wife is like and I'm you

(47:21):
know, we're going back and forthand almost threatening each other to have a
fistfight. And my wife's like,you can't do that, and I'm like,
well work my well yeah, butit's not working now. It's a
new life, and you know,somebody had to teach me these things to
kind of that's the thing where youwere the reaction. Yeah, there's always
the reaction instead of like, okay, hold on, let's think about this

(47:44):
kind of like you know what Ilearned, don't send an email when you're
angry. Yeah, well, youmade a good point. You said drug
users aren't bad people, but Ithink you can stretch that farther. There's
a lot of guys involved in crime, and women that are involved in crime
that aren't bad people either. AndI've watched sadly so many people from that
life either kill themselves or die ofa poisoning. And I use the one

(48:08):
guy as an example all the time. I don't obviously don't say his name.
He passed away from an overdose,but his first federal bit was so
a shaken baby syndrome. He killedhis baby. And that dude was nineteen
years old with a huge trauma background. And I would sit and talk with

(48:28):
him and be like, and hewas very open with me. He couldn't
get him. He would never forgivehimself. And I think, you know,
I've seen it where families have forgiventhe guys who've committed homicides, but
the guys themselves won't forgive themselves,and then society won't forgive them either,
because society sees them as just aright and just a murderer, just a

(48:49):
gang member. And I think tohumanize a lot of these folks is and
I'm not making I'm not saying goldand commit crime and it's okay to commit
crime. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that behind every one of
these individuals that commits crime and asa human being, but likely had a
trauma background. And what we failedto do is provide any services to address
that trauma unless you have money orbenefits. Yeah, yeah, I mean

(49:13):
I say it all the time,that's correct. You know, there's a
lot of people that could use traumatherapy, probably every one of us with
the ones that needed a lot,especially that people who are struggling can't access
it. You know, whether you'reon a low income or struggling in poverty.
Good luck trying to access a traumatherapy service, and you better have
a better lucksypending a dollar on apowerball ticket, you know. And then

(49:37):
also too, when you don't havethose necessities of life, like basic needs
like housing and a place to goto sleep and rest, you know,
mentally rest, physically rest. Withoutthese things on the street, you don't
get that. You're just constantly goingback and forth, and so you get
you get caught up in the familiarityalmost it's like a sickness where stuck and

(50:00):
even though we know it's not thebest thing that we should do, we
do it. It's because it's sofamiliar and we know how to get through
it instead of being able to,you know, say hey, listen,
let me take you out of thisand help you get here. And how
do we do it? You knowwhen we talk about running, flight or

(50:20):
fight, that was me. Howdo you get a guy to stop running?
Well, you can't get him towalk? Maybe you have to look
at the next step. It's like, well, how do I get you
to stop running? How do Iget you to jog? Can you a
job for a bit? Like justtry to slow the pace down a little
bit, then you can get themto eventually, you know, maybe get

(50:43):
to walk. And then sometimes youknow what, like I say, additional,
just throw it right in your faceand throw all the stuff that you've
done and all the services that yougot and say, hey, f you
man, like I'm going to doit. And for no rhyme, no
reason. You go on autopilot andyou you go back and that's it.
It's just it's it's the insanity ofit. Well, and you know what

(51:07):
the other thing too, is Yeah, but you you see the success when
people are given those opportunities. Likewe have a friend who left jail,
was in for about sixteen years,but got a job while he was on
day parole got an apartment. Weyou know, several people got banned together

(51:29):
get him furniture and stuff, andhe's doing really well. And it was
interesting to watch though, because weend up bringing him a love s He
was at four months after we firstmoved him in, or even six months,
and he was like, I justsat in that easy chair for the
first time last week because he'd beenso used to the size of a jail

(51:49):
cell that he this one bedroom apartmentand in Edmonton was too big for him,
which was it's insane, But watchinghim succeed it has been really really
great success. It's great when yousee people have a little bit of success,
right, and a little bit ofself esteem and a little bit of
positivity in our lives. And Ithink those are all attributed to the people

(52:15):
that are around you supporting you,right. Like you know, one guy
just messaged me the other day hesays, listen, what are the top
three things to stop using? AndI'll say, well, let me just
give you two. Stop paying aroundpeople who are using, and stop paying
around places where you can use.I said, start there, but you
have to have and tell somebody aswell that you're trying to do something different,

(52:39):
you need some support, help,And I said, try those three
things first and see what happens.But those are the things that we have
to just continue to work with people. You know, I develop great relationships
with people because I don't judge them. And I think when people hear my
story and they're like, well,I can tell this guy anything. He
ain't gonna judge me because he ismister screw up, and so that makes

(53:04):
it opening door. Even school counselors. I had a really good testimony and
I posted it on my Instagram inthe testimonial sections where I did a talk
at h Boyd High School and youknow, kids were, I mean visibly
emotional after the talk. But thenext day the counselors reached out to me
and said, I just want tolet you know our counseling room was packed
with kids reaching out for help andsupport, and they all said that you

(53:29):
make reaching out sound cool, andthose are just things that you know,
you who knew, Like I mean, people often say that to me,
where'd you learn how to speak publiclylike that? I was like, I
honestly, I didn't even know.Maybe it was because I was good with
communicating with people on the street becauseI sure wasn't good in school. I

(53:49):
sure wasn't good with a whole bunchof other people. But to sit down
and have a conversation with people onthe street, even when I struggled to
the people that I liked, youknow, we could have some laughs.
And sometimes you need those laughs indark moments, right And even if it's
dark, humor sometimes made us laugh. So you know what, that's the
most rewarding thing I have, isthe is looking at the kids in the

(54:13):
future. And that's why I dowhat I do, man, And I
just I don't know, man,I I can't you know, I really
don't want anybody to go down mypath, because I'll tell you it's the
most physically and mentally punishing condition thatyou'll ever endure. And I don't want
you to go that route. Andif I can do anything to help you,
or even if you know, likeI'm just there, man, I

(54:37):
just I just care about people.I don't want them to die anymore.
It just seemed too much of itfor too long. And you know,
you get all these new government policyofficials that come in from nowhere and have
jobs working in some construction industry orwherever they become politicians, they don't even
have a clue of what to lookat. And you know, here you
go and you know they say thingsthat are incorrect unfortunately, right, it's

(55:01):
not helping things. Yeah, Ithink you're probably, well not probably.
You think you would be a greatpublic speaker, because public speaking is all
about authenticity. I've watched lots ofpeople speak, and the ones that are
full of shit and are too rawraw, you're like, I can see
through that cat in a second.That's not you, because you're just like,
hey, this is me, here'smy story. You probably have a

(55:21):
bit of a take it or leaveand I'm not trying to convince you a
shit take it? What this wouldwork if you don't cool beings and not
trying to convince anybody. And Ithink that's what would draw people in,
right, because that's unfortunately and thesetimes very refreshing is seeing someone who authentically
tells their stuff. Yeah, I'vebeen it's very hobbling to hear the kind
words from a lot of people.But people, I'm you know what,

(55:42):
I was authentic on the street mypast life, and I'm authentic in my
new life as well. And Ithink you know, sharing stories with people.
People relate to stories. You know, I don't glamorize drug use,
man, I humanize people. Yeah, and in doing so it connects with
a lot of people. And that'sthe stuff that is probably the most rewarding

(56:04):
stuff in my life. But youknow, obviously for you know, the
biggest thing in my life is beinga dad the three young, amazing kids
and having the ability to raise themand you know, to watch them grow
and also too, I'm reallyliving thechildhood that I missed out on, you
know, through there and to me, that is that's the gift right there.

(56:25):
You know, Well, and youbroke the generational curse or whatever wording
we want to use of kind ofstop the site. Yeah, you broke
that cycle and no doubt or givingyour kids a different home than you grew
up in. Yeah, yeah,no, it's it's rewarding my one of
my you know, well, wethink both my oldest two kids have ADHD.

(56:45):
We think we know one does,the second one we also think too.
But you know what, they're ina loving environment home and that's the
difference, right you know, youcan be you can grow up in an
environment where you struggle and then ontop of it. People don't know how
to support that, then it becomesa volatile situation. Yeah, and when

(57:08):
you know how to support it,now everything in life happens for a reason.
I've seen so many full circle momentsin my life, it's unbelievable.
Even the nurse that brought me backto life at the supervised Consumption site,
we became colleagues. You know,she's met my kids, best friends with
my wife. I mean like,when I look at her, I'm just

(57:28):
you know, I want to giveher a big hug. And it's funny.
I was at the Surrey Pride andthen also a grocery store afterwards,
and so it was funny back toback moments. Two firefighters, one at
Pride and then one in this grocerystore came out to me and they were
like, hey, you're guy andI was like yeah, he goes,

(57:50):
I remember reviving you on the street. And I looked at I just said,
oh my god, really and theywere like yeah, and it was,
you know, over a decade agonow, and I just I said,
can I give you a hug?And he was like, yeah,
I'm so happy for you. Andyou know what that that's the appreciation that
you have that you know people werethere. I mean, you have to

(58:15):
remember too, as I overdose twiceoutside of a supervised consumption site and four
times in a supervised consumption site,and back then in twenty twelve. In
twenty thirteen, the lockson wasn't onthe street, and so I was very
lucky that, you know, thepeople that were around me did CBR until

(58:37):
the ambulance showed up. Otherwise,Man, I look back on my life
and I'm just like, man,you know, it was just it was
just meant to be that I wasmeant to survive it and and be able
to do what I do today.Yep. And I was pretty remarkable that
those guys remembered you too, becauseI unfortunately, I know a lot of
firefighters in and around the Amonton area, and that's kind of all they do
all day and for it right nowis in the lock zone people, and

(59:00):
no one really recognized how difficult thatis on the first respawner population either when
that's all you're doing all day andyou revive somebody and they walk away,
go no, I'm good, gofuck yourself, and they go about their
day and just because they're in thatcycle of turmoil and vulnerability. But that's
that's very cool. Oh well,they remember, you know what I was.
People, A lot of people sayI was pretty memorable policing. I

(59:22):
mean, I know all the copsand gang squads reached out over the years,
so many, so many people,correction officers. I mean, anywhere
I went, people knew, uh, they knew where I was. People
had to know where I was.I mean, I wasn't a guy that
really screwed around man, so theythey knew, like you know, So
it's it's kind of interesting. Andyou know, in an upcoming project that

(59:45):
we have coming out in November,we're doing a short documentary of my life
and rise out of the downtown EaySide. But it's actually collaborated through a
timeline of people such as, youknow, former gang squad members, nurses
U people who were involved in streetlife, people in recovery, my wife,
the nurse that brought me back tolife, correction officers, all collaborating

(01:00:08):
the timeline of my story through theirwords and their eyes and witnessing me in
this struggle. And so that'll becoming out in October and November, and
when it does, I'll happily sendyou guys the video awes would be great.
I'll be using that in my classesbecause actually one of the classes I
teach is Mental Health and Addiction andJustice Response to Mental Health and Addiction,

(01:00:32):
which is a great class and it'sforty five hours long, and I wish
that we taught that in I wishevery single first responder took that class,
because it just gives you a differentunderstanding when you start to understand the beast,
right like it's it isn't a choice, It's not you know, it
is a diagnosable medical disorder in DSM, right like it's we are still punishing

(01:00:55):
people for mental health issues. Andwe look at that and you know,
it used to be illegal to killyourself in this country and a suicide attempt
will get you arrested. And we'vecome a long way, but not far
enough. Yeah hundred percent, myfriend. I mean, we've come a
long way since way back then,and now we still have a long way

(01:01:16):
to go, and hopefully, youknow, we keep doing what we're doing
to make those significant changes for becauseyou know, at the end of the
day, man like that toxic drugssupply, we don't have any control over
it, and you can. Youcan never really eliminate drugs in our society.
It's not gonna happen. Like it'sjust you can't even get drugs out
of prison. I mean, comeon, what makes you think you're gonna

(01:01:37):
keep them out of a community.Not gonna happen. And if people want
drugs, they're going to get them. We just have to do a better
job at really, you know,helping them not get that. And that's
the million dollar question that's very hardto solve. Yeah, it's a better
job of treating the root cause,which is the trauma of childhood or whatever,

(01:02:01):
wherever the trauma came from that leadsto the addictions. Not it's not
the other way around. We're puttinga band aid on a bullet hole.
Awesome. I think that's a goodplace. And we really very much appreciate
this conversation. It was awesome youI hadn't I knew little bits about you,
but you are a remarkable human beings. So I really really appreciate you

(01:02:22):
spending time with us. It wasawesome. It wasn't. I appreciate you
guys anytime. Man, Oh,that's awesome, And I always I always
just kind of close it with anacknowledgment of where we're recording this. We're
recording this on Treaty six Territory,the home of the Meyti cre Dne Soto,

(01:02:43):
Lakos Sue Blackfoot people that have walkedthese places for time memorial and you
know, just want to say thatwe know that that addiction hits that community
really hard, and we also knowthat there's a lot of statement that goes
with that in our indigenous communities acrossthe country, and that we need to

(01:03:05):
realize that those addictions aren't choices.They come from you know, vicarious trauma,
lived trauma and have been unfortunately passeddown. And we need to work
more with our indigenous brothers and sistersto create healthy spaces because they deserve it.
And just want to close with ourusual these are just the opinions of
Scott, Dan and guy, notaffiliated to anybody anywhere we work in the

(01:03:30):
past, future, present. Thisis just our opinion. So thanks very
much for your time, right loveyou