Mike Elliott Season 3 Episode 10 - Mental Health is Part of Wellness

We had an excellent discussion with Mike Elliot about career, family, and wellness of the whole being. It was vulnerable and strong with a desire to crush stigma.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of just Us on Justice and
other Things. I'm named Scott Jones, your co host with
my baby brother Dan Jones, and we were very honored
today to have our guest staff starredan Mike Elliott from
the Emston Police Service. Mike not only has been a
police officer for a number of years, which we'll get
into the history a little bit here, but is a

(00:20):
very much a staunch advocate for the mental well being
of the population in general, but I think more specifically
two police officers and first responders, and has been shown
very a lot of courage and vulnerability as he's gone
on that path. So I've known Mike quite a long time. Actually,
the first time I would have laid eyes on you,
I was a guest instructor teaching initial investigations when you

(00:43):
were a recruit, and I was still pretty yelly back then,
So that would have been the first time you have
laid eyes on me when I had just finished my
stint in recruit training and then I was in front
of you, yeah, presenting that stuff that's.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Ahead of recent a member with you and the Jerry
Nash yep. Yeah, he came over from PSB and I'm
like bright eyed and bushy tails, just trying to pay
attention inside everything.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
So let's maybe start with just kind of where you're
from and then what led you into policing as a career.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Okay, I was born and raised in a small outport
called Loon Bay, Newfoundland has about one hundred and twenty people.
Growing up, there was one corner store, but it was
like no street lights, no gas station, nothing, and everybody
knew everyone, which has got pros and cons because if
you needed something to run next door, you didn't locker doors.

(01:38):
If you ran into the store, you left your vehicle running,
which was didn't think anything of it.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
Nobody stole anything, and.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
I through my parents, I think you just developed the
relationship of this helping everyone out because I remember the minister.
I was a little little, but the minister was coming
and he didn't have a house. So the whole community
got there and build a house. And I remember running
over actually running over beers for dad, which was quite
difficult right for in the basement. That s meant and

(02:10):
I think that's where I guess my upbringing for looking
out for each other and helping each other started when
I was sixteen and I signed up for the volunteer
for the fire department. Was there for about what six years,
And I remember trying to join the Mounties right out

(02:31):
of high school and they said, might get passed, but
we're looking for Indigenous or female.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
And my dad did.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Construction this whole life, and he said, Mike, go do
something with your life, because you know, construction is hard,
beats you up, it's you know. Sometimes I remember Dad
making you know, like fifteen twenty thousand dollars. An other
time is he making like eighty five thousand. So it
was like, you don't know where you're going to bring home.

(02:58):
But like many of people, I guess, graduated high school,
I didn't know what I want to do. I always
want to be a police officer and couldn't apparently, and
all I.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
Knew was Mounties is growing up in world New Flint,
Like what is there? Right?

Speaker 2 (03:09):
I don't think of EPs or anything like that, and
no internet time is all known.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
And went off to Memorial.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Did a couple of years of general studies, decided that
I'd like political science, got my undergrad and POLISI.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
And I was like, what do I do with that?
I didn't know?

Speaker 4 (03:28):
So you become the president of a police association. That's
what you do with that.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Moved to Halifax because at the time my brother was
You remember when there was Air Canada and Canadian. So
my brother was a pilot with Canadian at the time
cair Atlantic and he said, Mike, come on up.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
He said, you know, airline business is booming. I'll get
your job.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
Started taking flying lessons and met some guys in the
military and they were like, why are you running up
a line of credit, you know, OANs and everything to
take your flying lessons when the military can train.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
And I was like, yeah, thought about it.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
So I remember going and talking to Chief Foreign Officer
and he said, Way, you need a degree to be
an officer and he said, I see you have that.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
I remember looking at me.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
He's like, well, clearly he didn't do very well in university.
But the degree is a degree.

Speaker 4 (04:20):
So you're in.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
So off to basic training.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
And the funny thing about it, and I look back,
is I had a young guy that was in with
me in basic.

Speaker 5 (04:35):
Training and his name was Darryl Day no Way, yeah,
so and had no idea he was talking about he
was in the reserve and that type of thing, and
never didn't know what.

Speaker 3 (04:46):
He was a police officer.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
So off, you know, did my basic training and Saint
Johns of Richelieu and got posted out to four A
weight Squadron here in Edmonton, waiting for my flight training.
And who do I have bump into out in four
oh eight is Daryl Day, Brandy Chalk, Corey Berger.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
So I'm scheduling all their flights.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
And as I'm talking to them, they tell me that they're,
you know, full time cops.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
And I was like, I always want to be a cop.
What are you doing here? And I went I never
thought about any municipal thing.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
So did my flight training and I'm getting posted to
four h six Squadron of Shearwater. Stayed in contact with
some of the guys out here, and I remember getting.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
Hold of darylll going are you still looking for cops?

Speaker 2 (05:31):
And so it was February, God, I want to say
February the fourth, which was a Friday. I put my
papers in and I was released and like February seventh,
two thousand and five.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
I started with EPs wow, and I was like, wow,
I'm I guess I'm a cop.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
So that that's that's how I ended up here and
I was going to stay here a couple of years
and transfer back to Halifax because my brother and sister
were there.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
And I met my ex wife and.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
At two kiddos later and well, I'm I became home.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
So that's how I got into this business with my friend.
So in a nutshell, did.

Speaker 4 (06:15):
You ever deploy with the military.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
No, And when you talk about having regrets, I always
wanted to get deployed. I remember being here at four
oh eight and Gagetown was deployed. That was Bosnia, and
I remember I went up with four or six. I
was trying get a deployment. It's like, oh, no, four
o eight's being deployed. It's like ah, because I felt
in my mind to truly serve my country and need

(06:39):
to go overseas, and I carried that in my mind.
Is like looking back is like that's not true, But
back then it's like that was like to me, the
epitome was to go overseas. And whether it was right
or wrong, but I don't know. But I can't live
there now, but.

Speaker 4 (06:55):
I it's interesting. So my wife's grandfather, Bob Bob, he
had the same regret, but it was during World War
two and he wasn't in the Navy and he's passed on.
But I remember I had talked to him about it,
and it was it was his biggest regret that he
never got to go and do that part. And the

(07:17):
one I can't remember where it was that he where
he was. But the one group that did deploy, their
boat got sunk and everyone on the boat died, and
that would have been the deployment that he'd have been on.
But even with that, I think there was some survival
survival guilt with that as well. He was like, I
really feel bad I never got to fight for my

(07:38):
country or or serve my country in that way, which
is you know, it's it's an interesting it's an interesting thing.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
So did you consider, like any of those un missions
that we used to send maybe we still do sending
police officers on or was the time he just not
by that point, not.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
When I was here.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
I remember, I won't tell that story because that's really
putting down somebody and I don't want you.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
Can tell us later.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
Maybe offline. I did have an opportunity to go work,
go fly with Air.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
One, but I asked at the time it was Kanakawi
was a staff sergeant in there, and I said, send
me to schedule and I looked at it and I said,
can by looking at the schedules all evenings and nights,
I'll in my time.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
At the time, my kiddos.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
Were like one in three ye and I.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
Said, I'll never put them to bed and I'll never
get them up in the morning.

Speaker 3 (08:32):
And I said, I don't want that. I can't do that.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
And I said, I'd rather be, you know, a patrol shift.
At least I can see them more often. But but yeah,
I never I never really thought about an e went mission.
But looking back, it was like, I don't think I
would have with with young kiddos going away for six
months or potentially a year. I I think internally that
would kill me.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, I was like the idea of them, but the
thought of being away from my wife and boys, I'm
not built like that. Like two weeks at Canadian Police
for whatever crisis and gotiator course or whatever was like,
oh my god, that's way too long and I need
to get home soon.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, yeah, I totally respect and agree with that.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Okay, so you start EPs and then just kind of
like walk us through a little bit of your COREENTA
and I will for sure get to the association got
I'll be a big chunk of time, energy and all
that that you dedicated to helping members out. But how
did you?

Speaker 3 (09:25):
So?

Speaker 1 (09:25):
You start in patrol like everybody and what happened?

Speaker 3 (09:27):
Like a first sergeant was Dan Doyle.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Dan taught me ethics in class and lo and behold
went the dance crew And Dan said, was the reason
I picked you, Mikey?

Speaker 3 (09:40):
He said, you know I used.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
To be in a Navy and look around the squad
and I think there was six seven of us were
ex military. Oh wow, And he said the reason I
wanted he said, because I know if I tell you
to do something, you're going to do it. You're not
going to question. It's going to get done. We can
discuss it afterwards.

Speaker 4 (09:55):
What division was that?

Speaker 3 (09:57):
Oh Downtown?

Speaker 2 (09:58):
Sorry, okay, yeah, C two Yeah at the time, and
I was actually C four in my apologies. So yeah,
I went up with Dan and I was like about
six eight months later and then Dan pulled the pin
and I was like what. And then there was this
thing called no rats that you may recall event that
popped up, and so I was selected to go with

(10:22):
a ragtag of us to put another crew together. He
put Gary Cook up long Term TA and the whole
bunch was there. So I went there for Jeesez. I
think it was Lisa a year before. I went back
to see four and people started moving on, like Davey Chow,
Rob Chan Lass Parker was there in the same crew
with me, and I tried to go to Beats. I

(10:45):
always want to go to Beats because I I see
the guys downtown. I thought it was awesome. And who
was there at the time. I think it was Mike
Boyd was a chief and he got rid of beats downtown.

Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yeah and yeah, I think.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
And I remember talking to Randy Lobster Camp and he said,
well will up beats?

Speaker 3 (11:03):
He said, stick around, Mike will up beats and no
beats every cane.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
And Eric Johnson was my surge and he said, Mikey,
I'm moving to Southwest.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
He said, why don't you come down with me? And
I said, Eric, wherever you go, I'll go with you.
Love working there.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
And I went down to Southwest, poke my nose around
and found a guy in a front counter. I want
to go downtown, went to HR and I went, hey,
I don't want to put my name on the list,
but I already ahead of the game. I got a
swap for you one for one and they said not
a problem. Within the week, I was swapped out. Two
weeks later, Eric calls me and he goes, yeah, Mike,
I'm not going to south West anymore.

Speaker 3 (11:38):
I'm going to Southeast.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
So end up going there to alf Mall and went
to his crew and can I can I tell a story? Yeah?
I guess you could. You can edit it up too.
So I'm not a religious person. So I'm in this

(12:01):
crew and.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
I'll just call a guy by his first names.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
You'll know who it is. His name was Muba. And
we're sitting every time we go on praying. You'd be like,
let's hold hands as do a prayer, you know, dear Lord,
or say we were as protectives when we're out there,
and I'm like, seriously, we got to do this every shift.
So there was this young East Indian guy and I said, hey,
I need a favor.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
So this was going on all.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
The time all the time, and I was like, Alph,
I can't handle this, and so I brought this guy in.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
So we went to go in and I saw Uber
get ready say a prayer. WHOA. So I take a bag,
I take out this elephant, and I put this elephant.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
On the table and I go to my buddy and said, okay,
starts he starts talking to Himujabbi, and he starts touching
the four heads. And when comes to Uber, he goes,
not my God, not my God. And and so we
edited on the street and we went to a couple
of nasty calls and I went, I said, Jesus made
that happen.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
That was Jesus that they at that.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
And I can tell, like looking back, it was like
terrible because I can tell about my mindset where I'm
going already back then. And Uba went to Alf and said,
and at that time, in my twenty six years of policing,
I've never said this, I cannot work with Mike Elliot
and Elf came to me and that broke my heart
whenever because I thought I was being funny.

Speaker 3 (13:20):
And things like that.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
So I end up apologizing at Muva and now Uba
and I are like.

Speaker 4 (13:26):
That that's awesome, yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
Thing, Yeah, yeah, we're so close. And UBA's still here.

Speaker 4 (13:31):
That is all so crazy actually because that's a long career.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, he's sixty. God, it must be like sixty four,
he must be he's got like I think forty years on. Wow,
he's a six.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
I think sixteen hundred rich and I think or fourteen hundred. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, but that's a really good The reason that's a
really good story not only because there's funny aspects of it,
but I think the point there too is you are
doing things where you think you're being funny and it's
actually causing harm because you're starting to get into that
where you're disregulated and you can't see the force for
the tree, so you're acting a certain way outside. Looking in,
you're like, what the fuck, dude, Like why are you

(14:13):
saying things like that? Why are you being mean? And
all that, and we lose perspective of how and Danny
and I've talked about this lots on here. We're particularly
the homicide. We were monsters to each other.

Speaker 6 (14:23):
Oh yeah, yeah, I'm so glad you said that because
looking back is like I was a complete passhole again, yeah,
and so unfair by looking back, that's that wasn't mean,
Like like joking, we all do, but that's not good.

Speaker 4 (14:35):
Yeah, but joking, but when joking becomes harmful, it's no
longer joking. It's it's it's intention versus impact, right, Your
intention is to be funny, but your impact is aren't hurtful?
And and I I have been guilty of that for that.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
You have a PhD.

Speaker 7 (14:51):
Yeah, that fucking right, So I maybe have too, Yeah,
because like, yeah, because you think you're just joking around
and then and then and then the the rare time
and the odd time, and I'll I'll tell you a
similar story where I was being horrible, just being a
fucking asshole, and it was Deb.

Speaker 4 (15:08):
Brown, who I love.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
Deb Brown.

Speaker 4 (15:11):
She pulled me aside in Downtown Division and basically said,
when you talk like that, it's offensive and you hurt people.
And I'm like, I didn't mean to hurt people. She goes,
I know that's why i'm telling you in this venue.
I'm I'm not making a complaint against you because I
know that's not what your intention is. But this is
what you when you do that, this is what happens.

(15:32):
And I was like, I felt like if someone kicked
me right in the nuts when she said that, actually,
because it was just because you didn't You weren't meaning
to hurt anyone. You weren't meaning to be mean. But
you ended up doing it. And I and that's a
great way to put it. That story was great for
that because I think a lot of people, I think
a lot of people don't realize it. And I think

(15:52):
it's a that's a really good learning moment.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
And the power of a deb Brown who's a staroid
adormer to take you aside, like the the leadership and
the courage and all that to go hey, don't and
not to shit on you or do in public. She
knew that she's going to get to you because you
held her, you reveered her. Yeah, you all did, and
she stepped up and did the thing well.

Speaker 4 (16:13):
And it's interesting too because you look at like other
and that because of her doing that actually taught me
as something in leadership. And I remember, and don't won't
say the name of this individual because they they had
a reputation. They wanted to get promoted down in downtown division.
They wanted and I was the inspector, and I pulled
this individual into a room and said, just you know,

(16:34):
this is what your reputation is. This is how people
perceive you. Then this member had been a member for
ten fifteen or ten twelve years at the time and no,
and I'd only been downtown for six months. No one,
not one of his sergeants, not one of the people
in the squad, not no one else had ever told
him that. And it was like I punched him right

(16:55):
in the face. And at the same time I watched
him transition to a very different person and then eventually
get promoted. Because it takes someone like a dam Brown
to teach me to have those conversations. And you have
those conversations with people a lot, and I'm sure you
have do mic but a lot of people. And that's
this is the the weakness I think that happens occasionally,

(17:16):
or more more than not sometimes in our in our culture,
in the policing culture, is we don't have those hard conversations.
We have no problem, Like there's an old saying, you
don't have to talk about yourself in the in in
a room in the Mton Police Service, because as soon
as you leave, they'll talk about your right and and
and And that's unfortunate because it's that it's that belief

(17:37):
that we are a family, but we're afraid to have
hard conversations with each other. And when you do have
hard conversations, people do appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
And I don't think that's unique to policing. I know
in conversations with like lawyers and whether it's Crown or
defense or whatever, it's all that same. When you kind
of have that triple a personalities in a collection with
a whatever goal of moving whatever goal forward, that kind
of culture gets a little insidious and entrenched hind of percent.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
And it's, uh, I'm glad you paused there and bought
that up, because I'm sure we all can't.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
Looking back, it's like, oh my god, there's time.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
So I thought it'd being so funny and I was
a complete asshole, right, And I've actually approached people and said,
you know, I'm sorry the way I was, and then
I get a people look.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
At me and go, okay, what polize. I'm like, no,
I'm just having reflection. Yeah, yeah, it's it's weird that way.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
So you're winding your way through your career and then
what took you to be on the association.

Speaker 3 (18:43):
I was always.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
Interested in politics, always like I love political science. Even
before I left New Atlanta, I was approached and asked
if I would consider running like for the Liberal Party
back in New Atlanta, and I was like, no, I'm
not because growing up, you know, in rural Newfoundland is like,
what did.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
Your dad vote for conservative? Well?

Speaker 2 (19:05):
Grandpa vote conservative? Well I must be conservative, you know
what I mean. So I'm like, I'm not running from liberals?
Is like, how dare you? Like? Of course, didn't have
the mindset or the intelligence at the time to see
the big picture, but nonetheless.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
Came here.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
Started ten in a couple of meetings at the time,
I guess it was Pete Radcliffe and Tony SEMIONI took
over and I remember running didn't get in, and then
I approached Tony and said, how can I help be
a part? And at the time they were getting ready
to start up a magazine called Rank and File, and

(19:42):
so I became just helping out collecting. And then I
noticed it's like, well, how does the information get out?
So I started up just like an email saying send
it the email to the squad and said at the
last meeting they discussed X, Y and Z, And then
next thing, you know, some he said, hey, my keep
on that email list, and next thing you know, it
grew and grew and grew, and I think I probably

(20:03):
had an email list of could be four or five hundred,
and I just updated everyone and because I thought more
information share was better because no one had a clue
what was going on. And then I ran and I
guess looking back, i'd say unfortunately, but at the time.

Speaker 3 (20:21):
Fortunately, I got in as a director and I fell
in love with it.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
I remember being in downtown and I was always running
upstairs again because I thought the work was fantastic, you know,
sources and drugs. And I remember talking to Kevin Berg
and he goes, Mikey, You're more than welcome to apply
and come up here anytime you want, but I'm telling
you you stay in that association. Not a fucking chance
are you coming in here? And I totally again because

(20:48):
he said, if you're here, I want you here. But
he said, you can't be doing association working back.

Speaker 3 (20:54):
Here and back and forth. So I totally respect to
get that, and so yeah, and end up.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
Then I moved, like I said, subside, applied to White
app Beats, got in the beats, and I thought it
was interesting.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
When it was two thousand and twelve, I'll go on
two sides.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
I was now as a CLC and under Paul Sinclair
and Brad McDonald was the inspector here. And the two
stories I'm going with is is that Paully pulled me aside,
and he goes, Mikey, I'm taking a leaf of absence.
I'm going up north to work, and you're putting up
for promotion. I'm like, I'm not interested in promotion. I'd

(21:41):
like what I do and I like work with you,
and he goes, no, too bad, here's your binder you're
putting in and come with me. We sat down with
Brad McDonald and he goes, no, we've had this discussion already.
We're not taking an over from here. You're putting in
And I was like, okay. So that's where I went
towards the promotion side. However, the flip side of that,
I'm working the CLCS working at this scus A station,
and the chief at the time and deputy chief, so

(22:05):
I'm sure you can probably figure that out. Who it
was showed up and pulled me out and says, Mike,
we understand that you're getting pretty popular in the association world,
and that you know, we got I got some appreciation
for you, and we went get a run against Tony
Simioni and the association, and I was like, I'm not

(22:28):
interested in running for presidents, like, I'm just putting in
for promotion this year.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
You know. I like what I'm doing down here.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
And he goes, tell you, what if you put in
and run against Tony And you went, I'll ensure you
get proke, and I went, this conversation is over right now.
I can't FM believe you just dropped that in my face.
And I swore at the chief and deputy chief and
walked back in. And I know that was on a
Friday in that afternoon, we were heading to Calgary for

(22:55):
an APPA meeting and Tony and Bubbles were in the
car and I told Tony and as you can imagine.

Speaker 4 (23:01):
Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
And after that, the relationship between that chief and I
went downhill, because I'm sure we're got starts spreading around
about that, because that's when I lost all respect for him.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
And he dropped that out.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
Because I look back, Jensen, if I did that, I'd
be in his back pocket forever.

Speaker 4 (23:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:27):
And two, how do I say face by.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
Looking at another member going look at how I got promoted,
and I'm telling you to go about through the promotion
process directly, right, And.

Speaker 8 (23:38):
I was like wow, wow, yeah, I know I still
got a couple of good friends here because I don't
have a lot like a Mainbelok, you guys don't have
a lot of close friends on the service, because I
think you should have friends outside.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
But he's like, Mike, we should write.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
A book about the stories of paining the Association and
what happened because he knows my deepest dark in secrets
to what's happened.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
But that's a sort another day.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
Maybe yeah was a dirucker then sorry you stayed it
was a director then at that point like yeah, yeah, yeah,
status director.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
And further along in what fifteen it was a bit
of a controversy because Maurice got in and there were
Scott I don't have to tell you, like inside the
Association it's always seems like a couple of camps or
one side or whatever the.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
Case may be.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
And uh, there was a bit of a two camp
from my perspective in there. And Brody ended up well,
he left, as you know. Bob Walsh was up acting president,
and I started getting approached by a lot of members saying, Mike,
you should run, you should run.

Speaker 3 (24:50):
I'm like, I don't know. A lot of work still young.

Speaker 9 (24:53):
In my career.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
I don't know what I do. And then more and.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
More people approached me, so I said, okay, here we go.
And it's funny you look back about things happened to you.
Maybe for a reason. I ruptured my achilles in twenty seventeen,
and when I'm like duties, and they gave me pretty
much free rein. So I started visiting everything and everywhere

(25:19):
put my name in. It was up against Corey Hawk
clock and I ended up getting in and that was
my last day walking the beat was December thirty one,
twenty seventeen, and then I went to the Association in
January first, twenty eighteen.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
So that's where that started from.

Speaker 4 (25:37):
And how long did you How long were you in
that spot as the president?

Speaker 3 (25:42):
Five years and like twelve.

Speaker 4 (25:43):
Days, twelve days and thirty two minutes and fourteen seconds. Yeah,
so I am blessed. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
No, I was gonna, oh, don't you go ahead?

Speaker 4 (25:53):
Damn my friend, No, you go ahead. I'm being the deck.

Speaker 3 (25:56):
No, No, I was going to say that. I after
the first term, I was like, yeah, I'll run again.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
But I can tell something wasn't right, Something wasn't right
with me at all. I was getting short. I didn't
feel I had support. There was some internal matters which
I will not discuss, but I felt like I got
sat into the back a couple of times, and like
trust issues and as you know, a gentlemen for both

(26:26):
of your positions too, I find the higher you go,
you never I'll say.

Speaker 3 (26:30):
You want to bitch down?

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yep?

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Right, and I'm going who I'm looking to my left
and right, going who'd I talk to? Who can I trust?
And I felt isolated them alone. I went to Tony
quite a bit because he was in there, but I
knew in my fifth year something was wrong because members
wore come in to talk to me and I'd break

(26:53):
down crying of her.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
I don't let you know too.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
If I get emotional and start crying, I'm okay with it,
because in emotion is like anything else, we always say
why is it okay to laugh? Why is it oka
get mad? Why is it okay get frustrated? But in
society it seems like why is it not okay to cry?
So as I can feel it right now, I'm sure

(27:25):
you can probably see. But I had a member come
to me and said, Mike, you've been helped me for
the last two years, and every time we try to
help them, I couldn't get any headway. I felt like
this roadblock after roadblock through DMC or Chiefs office or HR,

(27:48):
and he goes, You've helped me a lot, might but
I'm going through mates, I'm taking my own life. And
that crushed me because internally I felt like him down.
And I started having nightmares seeing myself with my head
blown off, and I rubbed my eyes and I look,

(28:09):
I'm still there. Couldn't sleep, anxiety through the roof, like
nasty thoughts, suicidal thoughts, everything, and I went, I got
to get out of here. And that's when I made
a decision. It was like I can't finish my turn,
and that's when.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
I ended up.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
I just got actually in I think talking to you
a couple months for eleven, that's when you warned me
about when I when I got out there, and.

Speaker 3 (28:34):
I thought, I'll just get away from it and I'll
be okay. That's in my mind, I thought. But that's
I'm probably jumping all over the place, gentlemen.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
But that's how I got into it, and that's how
I got to get the hell out of here too.

Speaker 4 (28:48):
Yeah, you actually answered my questions because I was going
to ask you a question. The question was going to be,
did you find the organizational stress of being in that
position more stressful and more harmful than the operational stress
that you experienced as a police officer.

Speaker 3 (29:05):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
Yeah, And then what I was going to jump in
is because I was in HR when you became the president,
I was the inspector in there, so again dealing with
all things kind of on the other team quote unquote.
But what I really appreciated with you is we've had
known each other a long time and we could have
the conversation of like, are you fucking kidding me? And
we could talk like that to each other, and then

(29:26):
by the time we're done the conversation, we are totally
good because it wasn't about Mike and Scott. It was
fixing the issue and coming to the best possible solution
we could for whichever member was involved. But yes, we
had that conversation as you were getting through, and we
because we talked all the time because we had to
for professional stuff. But I remember that conversation with like, hey,

(29:46):
just you know, this is what I experienced when I left.
Literally it was about a twelve or thirteen year thing
culminating with HR and then I went to major crimes
as the inspector, and I was significantly disregulated because my
system didn't know what the fuck to do with a
little bit of calm and a little bit of peace.
It was so used to operating it like stomping on

(30:07):
that gas pedal that my nervous sys and then felt
completely unsafe in a bit of calm. And then I
was just picking fights. I picked fights with the deputy,
I picked fights with the chief. At the time, I
was just kind of wanting to have confrontation because that's
where I was comfortable.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, because I remember, I'm sure I recall you said
looking back, you went like eight months it was.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
Like a like a blur.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah, yeah, I still can't remember. Yeah, I still don't
remember what the hell I did during that time. Like
there's bits and pieces here and there. And in the conversation
with my wife, she's like, yeah, you were just mad
all the time, And I was, because again, that's my system,
will go into the hyper arousal and just be mad,
and that's how it demonstrates it.

Speaker 3 (30:45):
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
And that that goes right in alongs with the the
guilt and chain that comes with it. Because the guilt
and chain I had, I felt well, I felt I
know I neglected my kiddos. If I had a dollar
for every time my daughter said, Dad, I thought you
were going to play with me, Dad, I thought we're

(31:08):
going to go for a walk, Dad, And I'd be
like yeah, one minute, one minute on my phone, or
go to my son's soccer game and like, hey, Dad,
do you see that goal? And I was like, uh,
pretend that I did because I'm there physically and my
head's down, or if I'm not on the phone, I'm
like I'm looking and it's just like, yeah, my mind's elsewhere.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
Can I even recall?

Speaker 2 (31:30):
And that that hurt me so much. And there was
a special person in my life who absolute sweetheart. I
can never say a bad thing about her, treated me
like gold, understood what I was going through because her
dad was a mountain and went through it as well.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
And she's no longer in my life, and that's something
I've got to live with because I couldn't ask for.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
A better partner in a way, for support, understanding, appreciation, gratitude, And.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
Now she's no longer there.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
But if I had lived with that too, but I
can't if I keep looking back at shame or regrets,
I'll never move forward. Yeah, this is the best I
can do, is like, yes, it happened, and I had
to learn from it and move forward from it, because
if we don't go stay in the pass and dwell
and you know where that goes.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
Well. Yeah, And I sat with my daughter's probably last summer,
and I had a moment where I was like apologizing
to them because when I was in certain places like
homicide or gang unit or whatever, I would answer the
phone to sources, to whatever all the time. I would

(32:46):
never say no.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
And I did.

Speaker 4 (32:48):
I had to sit there with my girls and be like,
I apologize. And they were great and they're like, no, Dad,
like we didn't see that, Like yes, sometimes that you
weren't around, But they're so forgiving. I think our kids
are so understanding and they you know, they kind of
love you regardless of your flaws and your and your
and your missteps, which is beautiful and just because I

(33:11):
want to say it, because I know my girls listening
to this podcast. My oldest got married two years ago.
My youngest just got married this weekend, and we had
a it was it was pretty, it was beautiful, and
it's actually hilarious because she got married to Ray Hogan's nephew.
So now I'm related to Ray Hogan, which I didn't
want to be. I'm just kidding. I loved I'm.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
Sure he may say the same thing. Jesus, I don't
like it.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
I don't.

Speaker 4 (33:33):
Jones, especially Dan Jones.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Okay, so you leave the association and you you know
that you're on that stage, uh dysregular, And I'll stay
with that terminology. What happens next?

Speaker 4 (33:47):
What do you do to.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
Try to start to deal with that?

Speaker 2 (33:52):
I'm here, so I end up getting a Southwest position,
which I'm still currently at as the admin's staff sergeant.
And I find this sort of like a mini h R.
I'm jack of all trades, master or nothing. And there's
members coming in, so I'm helping members. Who A, Mike,
we have somebody going on short term this building. Ay, Mike,
we got somebody on WCB return to work. Can you

(34:14):
find a placement? What can you do with them?

Speaker 3 (34:16):
So I try to find and so Kelly Furman coming in,
came in and talked.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
To me and and I guess for your audience, Kelly
is the site for the EPs and she's literally sitting
in a chair right there and goes, hey, Mike, need
to help me with mister so and so I was
like yeah, and I'm talking away to her and she
looks at and she says, oh my god, you have PTSD.
No I don't, No, I don't, and I'm mistressed. And

(34:42):
she said it is written all over your face, Mike.
And with that, I just like pull into a puddle
right here. And I was seeing somebody for approximate two years.
And I told Kelly that I was seeing a psych
and Kelly get a little upset because you mean, tell
me you've been seeing a psyche for two years and

(35:04):
she's done nothing for you. No WCB claim, no rapid
eye movement, you know all the treatments.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
I don't. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
So she sent me to another psych who did some
testing on me and said, yeah, you have PTSD.

Speaker 3 (35:23):
And by Karius trauma.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
That's something else I like to jump on because moral
injury by Karis trauma I don't think is truly appreciated
by the membership and society. And that's something that WCB
doesn't accept either.

Speaker 3 (35:37):
Wow, which is astonishing.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
A bit moral injury, and they wanted to take me
off the street or off the job, and I said, don't.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
I'm worse at home.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
I need to stay at work and try to stay
busy because if not, I will, ye know, it will
go crazy. And had a hard time then because then
we lost two members, all right, Travis and Brett.

Speaker 3 (36:07):
And I found it hard because.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Travis's wife asked me to speak.

Speaker 3 (36:18):
At the memorial.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Because she said that you helped him, and gentlemen, I
remember seeing him.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
I don't recall what the incident was.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
I don't recall what I told him, but it's amazing
that you can make an influence on somebody and you
don't know it.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
And because she said, like, you helped.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Him so much and you change his mindset and I
am not a clue.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
And I did not.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Have the strength to go because I was like a bucket.

Speaker 3 (36:58):
I barely hold it together.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
And then I felt the pure pressure because people are like,
are you going, Mike, are you going?

Speaker 3 (37:07):
Mic? I was like, no, I'm not going. Why you're
not going?

Speaker 2 (37:10):
And at the time I didn't know how to set
boundaries and because right, we all agree in different ways, right,
some people need to go and some people, and I'm
one I can't, So I stayed here in the office
and I cried and cried, and it was like two
days later they sent me. They said, Mike, you're going

(37:32):
to Calgary to the Newly or not sent me to
the Edmonton Newly because.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
You know too many people and gentlemen. Are you're familiar
with how the Newly operates.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
No, let's walk through that. Yeah, so I have a
vague idea, but I for sure people who listen as
won't know.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
So they have three different types of program they call
TPI one, two, and three. I was going into TPI three,
which is basically full time, and the.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
Newly sets up there. You are in.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
You have individual psych and you have group psych, so
you're in a group with other first responders. You have
occupational therapists, you have a trainer, and it's educational based.
So when you have your group, they go over this

(38:25):
like six different chapters I think, or eight different chapters.
But they talk about the importance of sleep. And when
I first started the program, I said, this is bullshit.
You're telling me the importance of sleep. Of course I
know the sleep support blah blah blah, blah blah, but
they truly teach you the education component around it. And
then they talk about black Harry's trauma, and they talk
about deregulation, and they talk about.

Speaker 3 (38:51):
Like, you know, self forgiveness, you know, self.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Regulation or like a little thing from Grene Brown. It
talks about how to meet your partner and you walk
into a room and you go, hey, honey, how you
feeling today? I'm a one to ten. I'm an a
to day like I can't not take anymore.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
Okay, good to know. So I know what you're like today.
Don't worry.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
I'll cook and the other days you'll come in. What
are you are on one to ten today? I'm a
two so I can take a lot on right, or
I didn't get a good night's sleep. But anyway, jumping
over the place. But they wouldn't send me to Edmonton
because you're going to be surrounded with other first responders,
of which you'll probably know quite well because you probably
helped them in the association from some standpoint or from

(39:31):
an OS or from a shooting being down an e fas.
So are you truly going to be able to open
up and be honest when it could be one of
your colleagues, as you know. So that's one reason they
sent me to the Calgary and I was in with
and when you go in you don't know them. This
is the first name, that's it, but over time you

(39:52):
get to know. So two corrections, three ems, one fire,
and eventually a CPS a Calgary.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
Member king And that was thirty two weeks I was there, and.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
I say the program was one of the most difficult, demanding.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
But yet rewarding program has every been in my life.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
As I told everyone that you saved my life and
they gave me an opportunity to live again. That's the
way I put it. So yeah, so that's how I
got into the New Line, and to this day I
still thank them and I do have a connection with
them because a gentleman might know him. Actually you would

(40:43):
call sat Parhart. He used to be a Deputy chief
of Calgary.

Speaker 10 (40:47):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And he's the CEO of
the newly ok yeah yeah, So he's down in Calgary
and Rob Tangay is the head psychologists for it.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
And you may or may not know Rob, but Rob's
now on the Calgary Police Commission.

Speaker 4 (41:06):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
Rob was also a part I hope I don't mess
this up, but deals with he's helping out the current
government to I'm gonna mess this up. They got a
program in I think at a Red Deer where you're
saying addict, if you have an addiction to something, they'll
take you in. I was like, and I was going
to give you a treatment inside almost like a Newly
two point oh, I guess, and try to help get.

Speaker 4 (41:26):
You out, like, yeah, residential treatment, but it's there. You
don't get to leave. Yes, it's a little bit. It's
a little bit like incarcerated treatment, but I don't I
don't mean it like that, but I yeah, yeah, it's
a it's a residential treatment. And yeah they're they're starting
when I read here, I think they're talking about starting
a few others in different parts of the province as well.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
Well.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
I knew you would know about it, Dan, one hundred percent.
I knew, but that Rob's behind there. So the connection
I have with both of them is that I was
helping them to get a Newly and Edmonton m M
because I said, we need this here, and as soon
as I heard the treatment, was like, yeah, we need it.

Speaker 3 (42:04):
And I remember some funny even before I went off work.

Speaker 2 (42:08):
I can remember they brought me in for a tour
of the facility and I broke down crying in their
facility as they give me a tour and You're like,
we got to get you in here, and you know
I'll fast track you.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
And I was like, no, if I'm doing it, I'm
doing it the right way.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
I don't want to get a back door way into
Newly And but yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:30):
How things come around full circle.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
And I I've always had, I think, a passion for
mental health, even like before the association days and since
I've come out, and I know you're both gonna appreciate
this that I always say, if you could help one person,
not go down that rabbit hole, like I think that

(42:56):
means so much because that one person could potentially help
another person, another and another.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
So that's why I still carry on.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
And I try to post things to social media by
now every three times a week, and I find every
post that I put out there's a meaning to me
as well. It's not just a blanket post. It's got
to have some meaning to me or connection to me
when I post, and if I help people, I do.
But it's amazing how like I've had one person reach

(43:28):
out to me, what the fuck is this? This is
not mental health?

Speaker 3 (43:32):
You know, goo fuck yourself, blah blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Blah to other people saying I needed that today, thank you.
But I try now instead of focusing on the negative,
I only try to focus on the positive, because old
Mike would hear something negative and going I kind of
fix that person, What did.

Speaker 3 (43:51):
I do wrong? What can you help me understand? That? Police?

Speaker 2 (43:55):
And you forget about the ninety percent of the good people.
You want to focus on the tan rate.

Speaker 4 (44:01):
So it's interesting though, and when you make that comment,
it doesn't matter what you do. And I know Scotty's not.
You're not really on social media. You don't really post
it you're on it.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
I do. I do very similar to what Mike does.
I do Actually every day I put a wellness related
post or whatever, and I put that out of my
story and then my I don't really do a lot
of pictures.

Speaker 4 (44:23):
I do, like whatever from the wedding and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Yeah, but really the stories I do one per day
that has the same thing, something that means something to
me and if people like it, great, and if they don't,
I actually don't care do.

Speaker 4 (44:37):
You get hate mail, like ever do you get people saying.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
I think my face blocks that. I think so.

Speaker 4 (44:43):
And I was just gonna I was just gonna say
the same thing to you, Mike, because and you know this,
like I'm in the media lots and I say stuff
about placing. I'm a big believer in police reform, and
some people agree with me, some people don't, and I'm
good with either way. But it results in a lot
of kind of a lot of hate mail, like it does.

(45:04):
And I get, you know, different texts and different things,
and and it is it's so easy to focus on
those negative ones and not the positive ones. And that's
such a human nature thing. I think, like it's but
it's for me now. I actually I kind of flipped
it when I get the negatives. I'm like, it's that
Winston Churchill quote, right, he says, if you've got enemies, good,

(45:26):
then you've done something in your life. And so I've
kind of flipped it on its head, going if if
you have this much time, and like some of them
are like the one is hilarious, but the best though
the guy called me a clear crayon. As useful as
it's useful, as a clear crayon and it was it
was hilarious. And he said, my my, whatever, my my
title at a fifth tier university is akin to being

(45:48):
the assistant to the assistant manager. Might as well add
a lord to it, like it was well thought out
and insults, but I get those and it's to me now,
it's like, okay. That means I'm creating conversations and I'm
whether they're good, bad or negative, somebody's talking about it
and maybe we can see some change sometimes and sometime
in the world, regardless of what that's about. And I

(46:09):
love your posts. I do. I see your post. I'm
on LinkedIn and I'm on X but I see your
posts and I really do appreciate them. And I don't
know if you I don't know if you heard the
song that Jelly Rope put out for Mental Health Month,
I am not okay. It is like I literally it
took me four times listening to that song before I

(46:29):
stopped crying and listening to it because it was literally
like I sat there and I'm like, this was me
eight months ago, and it was like like in one
of the lines in the song, he says, I if
you think I'm doing fine, I've learned to hide it well,
and and that just punched me in the guts, right,

(46:50):
because unless you're like him, Scotty knows me. Scotty knows
if I'm justsregulated and like that. But the vast majority
of people never know, right, They never They just see
you you. And one of the things that I actually
I think I've learned over my light over this period
of time of me is I'm way less of an
extra than I thought I was. An extra version, was

(47:10):
a distraction, was a distraction technique in my own mind?
So I if so, yeah, it's it's yeah, what what
you're doing is amazing work.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
It's funny when you say distraction technique because I find
that occurs not just narrow service, but in society as
a whole. Because I find when people think about they
get an issue. You think of, oh, John Smith's is
an alcoholic, Well, what caused John smith to become an
alcoholic in the first place?

Speaker 3 (47:38):
Right? Because they use alcohol to mask their issue.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
And I find in the service or in society it's
sometimes no different because gentlemen think about there's there's people
in society become workaholics.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
Right, and they're deemed or they're type A, which it
may be.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
But I look at some people now, I go, you
work so much because what can't you handle.

Speaker 3 (48:00):
When you sit in silence?

Speaker 2 (48:01):
And that's why you some become fitness fanatics, right, and
because they need to do something to stay active, because
they won't allow themselves to sit and let emotion service
and like they'll do their best because we don't know.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
Like that talk about crying.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
I compress that, suppressed it so much, and it's like
you can't suppress one emotion, that's impossible, right, but it'll
come out.

Speaker 3 (48:26):
So that's when I think.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
You say that, my friend about being an extrovert, I
oh my god, one hundred recent with you.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
And I think cops in general, because that's the only
frame of reference the three of us have. Really we
you'd have military as well. We are very good at
compartmentalizing and showing up and put the uniform on. It's
like your Superman suit and then you go do your thing.
And nobody would have any idea, no point in my career,
at any point when I was struggling, would anybody at
work have fucking known any My wife would have known,

(48:53):
my kids known, Danny knew everybody else wouldn't have had
to clue.

Speaker 4 (48:56):
I was separated for eight months and I think three
people and anas I knew it. Yeah, Like I was
literally living in his basement and then at my mom's place,
and no one had a freaking clue because I didn't
fucking tell anybody shit. And in the end of it,
one of the interesting things that came out of my
wife and I this relationship, and she said to me,
I don't know anything about you. I know nothing about you.

(49:19):
We've been together for at that time twenty some years,
like it was our thirtieth winn anniversary last week, and
she's like, you are a great communicator, you listen really well,
you know everything about me, but you have never told
me I don't know anything about you for the last
however many years. And she didn't. She didn't know about
anything in my life.

Speaker 3 (49:37):
I was.

Speaker 4 (49:38):
And it's it's a it's a toxic trait, but it's
also a fucking wicked skill.

Speaker 11 (49:42):
Well, it's a survival it's a survival skill, right, and
it's and and and there were certain things I didn't
want her to know because whatever like undercover stuff and
and those types of things because you want them.

Speaker 4 (49:53):
You don't want them to worry when you're not there.
But in that I excluded her from a lot of things,
and it almost cost me our marriage because I was
now starting to have dysregulation and act out and becoming
that workaholic and having zero boundaries and and that's yeah,

(50:13):
and that and that's what happens. And and then we
we mask it with drinking, we mask it with this,
and then but then we think, you know, I'm it
was funny. I watched the movie heat uh not that
long ago, and I realized my whole life I wanted
to be him five marriages later, fucking crazy shit alcohol,

(50:34):
and I'm like, I don't want anything any part of that. Actually,
I couldn't finish the movie because it started becoming triggering.
I'm like, no, I'm just gonna go. Yeah, yeah, it
turned to triggering me. I'm like, the problem was I
wanted to be that so bad.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
You literally said those words I wanted. I'm sure you
told me that. I don't even remember.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:52):
And then and then one of the things they started
and they started calling me McNulty and homicide because the
same thing like workaholic, fucking idiot, right, And but all
that was was to mask pain and suffering and stress
and trauma and all of it that now I'm I'm
dealing with. You can't say I've dealt with because you're

(51:13):
gonna always have to deal with it.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
Yeah, it's just so true.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
And you just gave me a flashback of my first
term association.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
I was living on the.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
Couch in the EPA office because I was going through
domestic abuse relationships.

Speaker 3 (51:30):
Yeah, and of course that I no one knew about that.
It was like you come in, you do the job,
what do I need to do?

Speaker 2 (51:38):
And go get ready for bed on the couch, all right,
So it's we've.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
You needed a death brown to walk in Go like dude,
you okay, Right, that's that's what we all need.

Speaker 3 (51:52):
Yeah, And I look.

Speaker 9 (51:54):
Back now and it's like, oh why but and and
oh another thing I've popped the mid two is like
the negative self talk, Like if I had a dollar,
if I'd say, Mike, you're a fucking idiot.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
What the fuck do you think? Jesus like you can
do better than that? And if you keep saying that,
you're going to become that. And what was a big
hit for me going through the newly was like, how
would Scott and Dan talk to six year old Scott
and Dan. I wouldn't Mike talk to six year old Mike.
You would never call six year old you're an idiot.

(52:32):
You'd be like, it's okay, buddy, you know, but make
a mistake. This way we learn, Okay, what can we
what can we do to fix this? What can I
do to help you through this?

Speaker 3 (52:41):
Right?

Speaker 2 (52:41):
So I find that's a big thing for me, is
like I stop with a negative self talk. So that's
why I'm always trying to use gratitude or I forget
the app that I use.

Speaker 4 (52:55):
Mindfulness.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
It is called old insight timer.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Oh yeah, I've heard of it up.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
Yeah, and I bring up it could be a three
minute it could be five minutes. Spence what you want
has got breathing exercises on there, or you will talk
about you know you are strong, you know it's okay
to be tired today, but just keep you know, it
gives you just positive affirmations.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
I guess you can call it.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
Yeah, and that's been a breath of fresh air because
it's got to get back to you like you and
your breathing exercises. I tell people it's like people always think, well,
I'll call my body, which will call me. It's like no,
Like going for a run is great to get the
endorphans or working out, but until you can calm your mind,
you'll never calm your body.

Speaker 3 (53:45):
And I think we've got that backwards a little bit, and.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
That that's what if I may is going to move
into the service or service, not to service, but I'll
say service. But in life in general, why is it
that we're really good at I'm going to make a
dental appointment, I'm going to make a hair appointment.

Speaker 3 (54:02):
I'm going to make a doctor's appointment. When do we
make a mental health appointment? We never do it? And
why do we always not stop and try to set
time for ourselves.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
We'll make time for everyone else. Why don't we go
make time for ourselves? And my third I guess tangent
on that is I find within within the police organization,
I find probably everywhere we have mandatory fitness testing, we
have mandatory weapons qualifications. You know, we got to get
your first aid done. It's like, where's the mandatory wellness

(54:35):
that you should be doing? Because people always say, well,
we can't force people into it. Well, one time we
force people to do fitness testing, so and then it
becomes the norm. Why can't we do the mandatory wellness
checks in with your syite. Well, if you make it
the norm, it comes to the norm.

Speaker 4 (54:51):
And it's the thing. And we've talked about this before.
Wellness and fitness are different. But when we talk about
health care, we're always talking about physical health care. We
do it should be healthcare should be all inclusive, right,
And the problem with our society is the people. You know,

(55:13):
lots of we all need we all need it, but
there's people that need it that can't afford it, right
because it's separate. It's this separate entity of two hundred
and twenty dollars an hour. And some of us have
benefits and some of us can afford it. There's a
lot of people out there that can't. And that's where
I think that's something that needs to change. Is health
care needs to be full health care, including your mental health.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
Yeah, and I challenge well you both through in your
listeners that go look at the health budgets right across
every province and look at the details of the breakdown,
look at how much goes to mental health care.

Speaker 3 (55:49):
I don't want to mess this up, but I want
to say the maximum I've.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
Fully seen as about three percent of the health budget
goes to mental health. Everything is the physical aspect of health, right,
and like that's nothing. It creates her number one issue
on the street.

Speaker 4 (56:03):
And the crazy part is that mental health creates the
physical health insurance, right, like where sometimes the physical symptoms
are symptoms of your mental health issues. They're the ones
that it's creating that in your body. Like like we
we have a friend and I won't say her name,
but she suffered a huge loss in her life and
I believe that her mental health gave her cancer, right

(56:28):
and she because she just focused so negatively. And I
think like those things, I don't think we pay attention
to how powerful the brain is and how powerful the
brain can interact and create different things within your body.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
And that's where, like the body says, no body keeps
a score. Like those kind of books Gabromante are best
of Found of Coke are so powerful to read and go, Okay,
this is why I don't have heartburn. I have stress
related I'm basically sipping quartersole all fucking day in a
chronic way, and I'm causing harm to myself because I'm
not taking the time to look after yourself. And it

(57:00):
doesn't have to be like, Okay, now I have to
do ninety minutes of breath work and then an hour
of this and it's literally, Michael, like you said, insight timer,
I'm gonna do breathing for three minutes and then I'm
gonna go over a walk for five or ten minutes.
Or it's those micro changes if we talk about here
all the time, that lead to bigger macro results.

Speaker 3 (57:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
Like I'll I'll sometimes come in the office in the morning,
I'll close the door and I'll do like take my
hand and I'll do it breathe.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
I'll do it real quick, but breathe in, breathe out.
Breathe in, breathe out. And I'll do that and do
it back and forth, just just force myself to okay,
let's start.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
Yeah, right, but you have to.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Make it a happen because if not, you just carry
on to the because what does help you out here, guys,
that is what I tell them nearly about your brain.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
You can rewire your brain neuroplasticity, thank you. Yeah, and right.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
And it took me, I say, about four months before
I say the wire being started and move upstairs to
realize it's like, oh yeah, it's you can see things
like the like. For example, occupational therapist. One of the
first thing she did wear in a Calgary So.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
Let's go for a walk. And I went out, whoa,
there you go. You're in a hurry where you want
to go for a walk.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
Let's walk and she's like, no, slow it down, and
she put me down to such a pace. Was like,
this is painful, but I understand what she was trying
to do. She was like, look at the world, touch
the grass, look at the stars. So when it starts,
look at the clouds, take in things all around you.
Because we're so busy going and we don't go, oh wow,

(58:41):
there's more to this world. There's more to life.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
You're walking like a beat clock every beat cop ever
walked super fast.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
Yeah, and I.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
You know, I uh, there's what's one of the one
of my posts that I really enjoy. And I'll try
to mess this up, but it's a what a caterpillar
calls the end of life. We call no, what a
what a caterpillar calls then of his life death we
call the beginning of life because it becomes a butterfly

(59:13):
I'm gonna mess it up.

Speaker 3 (59:15):
What a caterpillar calls the end of the world, we
call it butterfly m h.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
And I'm going it's about perspective, right, because we all,
I think, we lose perspective and we so quickly fall
on the negative side of things. And look, you guys,
is a lifelong journey. Do I still struggle? Oh God, yeah,
big time. But I know I'm a little bit better
today than I was yesterday, and that's all I can

(59:43):
try to do. And but it just tries to figure
out what I want to do in life as well.
I should ask you too, Johan, because this is a
problem that I have. I've grown up hating the city.
And the reason I say it that way is I
still struggle. I drive down the street and I go,

(01:00:04):
there's a sexual assault there. I remember when I pulled
the kid out of the pool.

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
There. I remember that's where the guy took his life there.
I don't have.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
There's more negative memories and positive memories. And I still
struggle with that today. And I don't know if you, gentleman,
has encountered that or found out a way to overcome.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
That, because in my mind, I hate the city. See
I do strong words.

Speaker 4 (01:00:26):
I do relate scenes, like when I go somewhere, I go, yeah,
there's a homicide here, there was a homicide there. There's
I do do that. But I also grew up in
the city and have had my kids grow up in
the city. So I relate a lot of it to
like I don't know if you if your kids grew

(01:00:48):
up in avontonthy grew up in the old skirts here.
But I relate a lot of it to the positive
things in my life. I try to, you know, And
and this has been a this has been a very
recent thing for me. I'm trying as much as I
can to take away negative energy out of my everything.
Like if somebody's negative, I just I want to push

(01:01:08):
it away and I'll find myself Like I did this yesterday.
I was sitting there. I won't get into what it was,
but there was a negative incident that kind of surrounded
my my daughter's wedding, and I'm sitting there perseparating on
the negative, which was one percent of the wedding, and
I'm like, don't do that. Think about how beautiful Emma

(01:01:29):
looked coming out of the limmo the very first time
I saw I didn't. I wouldn't allow myself to see
herding dress until the wedding day, and I watched her
walk out of this limo. And so I'm doing the
best I can to take when a negative thought comes
into my head to replace it with a positive thought.
And that's what I'm doing that and that's it's helpful.

(01:01:50):
It's not one hundred percent because negative thoughts come into
my brain all the time and I have to I'm doing.
But I'm what I'm doing now is I'm mindfully replacing them. Going, no,
this incidentt and look at all the beautiful things that happened,
not the negative things that happened.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
I still have a like you said, of scenes or
wherever homicides happened, whatever, But I think through therapy and EMDR,
and it's not like I took eye movement desensitization reprocessing.
It's not like a em dyard each specific incident. But
it seemed to have kind of flushed the pipe where
I can go, Yeah, I remember going something here, but
it's almost like it's been on a chalkboard and it's

(01:02:26):
mostly been a race, so it really doesn't have the
power that it once does. And I can go yeah,
I remember what happened because we were doing a long
training run or walk for this event that I'm doing
in August. It just happened to go like, yeah, I
remember when that homicide happened. Here, here's where we mustard
for this blah blah blah blah. But they had no
juice and they caused me no angst. So I think

(01:02:47):
just that EMDR therapy process moved that through. And to
go way back when you talked about Kelly Furman, I
had a very similar experience where she was sitting in
my office. I was telling I'm like, yeah, I'm not
doing great, Like, here's what's happening. She makes a phone
call to Matt Molen, who ultimately becomes my therapist. So
this is probably now going on four years ago, and

(01:03:07):
immediately that's how I started my therapy journey. But Kelly
was very similar because she's very good at reading and going,
holy fuck, I know you, this is what you're showing.
And then she right away looked after because she's very practical.
So it was very similar to story.

Speaker 4 (01:03:20):
Actually that's cool.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
I love Matt too, Yeah, he's a good yeah. And
Thelma yes, and Thelma with the dog, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
Yeah, No, it's uh, I should let you know, two gentlemen,
I'm supposed to jump on a two o'clock with this
Crown meeting.

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
No, we're aware of the time, so we will uh,
we'll wrap it up here and I'm just gonna say,
I just.

Speaker 4 (01:03:40):
Want to say, what's what do you see? And then
this is what's next for you? Like and even beyond policing,
like do you have things that you want to do?

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
And if you can't answer that, that's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Yeah, I know that when the time comes to the
park policing, which is sooner than latter, I want to
do something that's one.

Speaker 3 (01:04:04):
Eighty of policing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
And I'm not saying that all of us haven't helped
society in some way in our careers, but I want
to do something on this side.

Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
I truly believe I like.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
To go into some field regardless of mental health, and
whether that's working with the company or helping others in
some capacity.

Speaker 3 (01:04:30):
That's what I say. I think work.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
It goes right back to my childhood growing up. We
always help one another and I think that's right in
my core, and so I think if I'm not involved
in something that's helping someone I don't know if I'll do.

Speaker 3 (01:04:43):
Like there's an.

Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
Opportunity that's presented itself, like I could offer to my
yoga instructor wants to Scott Yre like this wants to
wants me to become a yoga starutor because she said,
my husband suffer some PTSD and these apartment and she said,

(01:05:06):
where we go into our yoga the.

Speaker 3 (01:05:08):
Yoga studals, she said, you'll notice that it's all women.
There's no male. She said, I'd like to have a
male role model.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
And she said, I truly believe my husband would come
out knowing that, hey there's her first responder teaching.

Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
Yoga and he gets it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
So she truly believes that that would create a bit
of a following and to get people.

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
To come out of their norm right out of there.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
Because we're creatures that have it right. We want to
stay inside. We don't want to try anything new. And
I think yoga and I look at you, Scott is
so underappreciated for what it does, like mentally, physically, spiritually
is like depends on what you want to do, what
you want to take, and what you take from it.

(01:05:55):
It hits on so many avenues and I wish I'd
known about yoga because twenty years ag.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
We told me yo, oh, me too. I would have
said the same thing, like, yeah, but whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
Somebody wants to get out of it, right, because yoga's
not for everyone, and that's okay. Yeah, but I I
wouldn't be surprised that I go down the road front
like yoga and Colin Scott heybody and yoga together.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
And we'll partner up and do put on a retreat
or something like that too, because there's not enough dudes
in the space, and there's not enough dudes who look
like us in this space. Like I don't have a
man bun. No offense to the man bun wearing listeners,
because we actually even wish you could have a man
But imagine me with a man bun. Yes, beard beard,
but beard Bunye. I can tie it off. My wife
did that the other day, that tied it into like

(01:06:43):
a ponytail.

Speaker 4 (01:06:44):
It's it's like Ron Swanson's character on Parks and rec
Do you have any history of mental health in your family.
I have a cousin who does yoga.

Speaker 8 (01:06:55):
I love that.

Speaker 4 (01:06:56):
All right, Well, I know you've got a meeting, so
we're gonna close it up.

Speaker 3 (01:06:58):
Here.

Speaker 4 (01:06:58):
I just want to just acknowledge where are.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
Before I do that, just making sure that this is
clear that this is just Scott, Dan and Mike's opinion
has nothing to do with the organization we currently work for,
work for on the past, work for in the future.
It was just our thoughts and musings that have nothing to.

Speaker 3 (01:07:13):
Do with that.

Speaker 4 (01:07:14):
Perfect thank you, And just to close it up, we
are sitting on three D six land, the home of
the Creed, the Dane, the Soto, the many Mayti people,
the Blackfoot, just the individuals, the people who walked this
land along before we were here. And I was just
thinking about something today when when I thought about that

(01:07:34):
is I just want to acknowledge what's going on in
Jasper right now, Alberta. The fact that the town is
basically demolished because of fire, And I was thinking, how
much better, you know, things were for when we could just,
you know, the people before us picked up and move
their their communities and they didn't have to get run

(01:07:55):
over by fire because they weren't constructed like we are
constructed today. And the way wisdom that there it comes
from being nomadic and the traveling and all of that
that stuff is kind of an advantage was kind of
an advantage that I think we as the colonizers, didn't
realize that that was an advantage not a hindrance. And

(01:08:15):
with that I want to just say, love you and
thanks for this great conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
Thanks buddy, appreciate you, and I thanks for that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
Dan is a great acknowledgement there too, for our past.
But no, gents, I thank you both. I thank you
on a number of levels for where you've been and
where you are today and because I know we've all
done things that we may or may not say it
was correct way, but you, gentlemen, I think your mentors

(01:08:44):
for so many out there, and it's not enough people
who speak out.

Speaker 3 (01:08:49):
And I truly, from the bottom of my heart, thank
you both.

Speaker 4 (01:08:51):
Appreciate it well, Thanks Buddy, I love you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
I love you.