Strengths with Heather Smith- Season 4 Episode 10

In this episode, Scott and Dan Jones welcome the insightful and dynamic Heather Smith to the show. From a childhood oven-mitt story gone wrong to a deep dive into careers, purpose, and reinvention, this conversation flows from lighthearted laughs to meaningful reflections on identity and transition.

Heather shares her journey from policing to executive coaching, touching on what it’s like to be married to a California free spirit, raising a family, and stepping away from a law enforcement career after more than a decade of service. Together, the trio explores:

✨ Finding strength in unexpected places
✨ Reinvention and the courage to start again
✨ The identity shifts that come with leaving policing
✨ Why interpersonal skills matter more than “fitting the mold”
✨ Balancing career, family, and purpose

Heather’s story is one of resilience, curiosity, and courage—and a reminder that strengths aren’t always what you think they are.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to another episode of Just Us on Justice and
other Things. I am Scott Jones. Here is my baby brother,
Dan Jones, and the lovely Heather Smith. All sounds like
we have fake names, Heather Smith, Dan Jones, Scott Jones,
all in WP before we get going, because we we
always have some of our best stuff before we hit record.
So we're gonna share a story of when we are kids.
They were just telling Heather, because we're in the home

(00:23):
that Danny and I grew up in that I have
now had for a number of years, so I don't know, you.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Were probably twelve ten whatever.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
Sudden I got and in our living room, it's kind
of a long living room, and there was a love seat,
and I was walking in the front door, I don't know,
twenty feet away from that love seat, and then suddenly
something popped up in my recollection. It was an avidmit,
but it was probably like a toaster cover or whatever
pops up kind of like a puppet. And I ran
all the way across the room and punch said puppet,
And it wasn't on Danny's hand, it was actually on

(00:53):
his head. And I told that story for years and years,
and finally somebody asked me, well why, I'm like, the
fuck would put an oven mat on their head? And
so he's like, why would you run across the room
to punch it? And I'm like, I actually have an
answer for that just seemed like the thing to do.

Speaker 3 (01:08):
So it's more normal to put an oven mit on
your head than is the run across the room to
punch something.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
I let's agree to disagree.

Speaker 4 (01:15):
I think that it wasn't another met. In fact, would
not fit on your head.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
It was probably a total cover.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
But he does and had even more of a pinhead
back then, so it's entirely possible it was an oven met.
We don't know, So we're gonna stress Heather out a
little bit because we've prepared nothing. So she's gritting her
teeth and not enjoying the yes, not liking the non plan.
But that's what we do is we don't plan shit here.
So how will we just start wherever you want to start?
So just a little bit of background, which you'll have

(01:42):
on the show. Notes, there is a wife married to
a hippie, dippy California dude. She's had some kids, she
was a cop, she's been a civilian with a police agency.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
She is a executive coach.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
She's kind of a very interesting human, although doesn't have
any idea how interesting is because she's like, what are
we going to talk about? I'm like, and we're both like,
there's buckets of talk about. So with that, to start
wherever you want, what's your kind of origin story, and
then we'll see how it goes from there.

Speaker 4 (02:11):
Okay, I hold it. Yeah, So I'm Heather Smith.

Speaker 5 (02:16):
So I do think it's very always comical when it's
like the Jones and the Smiths and the Browns and
those people get together. But yeah, I started in a
police agency as a sworn member, and story is Scott
was my uh, one of my training officers, and is
very different now I have to say.

Speaker 6 (02:39):
For the laughter.

Speaker 5 (02:43):
Yeah, so I was actually very afraid of Scott, which
you know, it's always like this feelings when I get
around him. But he has in some ways reinvented himself,
which I think I have a bit of a story
of that reinventing, which can be a bit of a
leap of faith in some But yeah, I started on
the sworn side and I loved my job. I definitely

(03:05):
wasn't sure if it was for me, but had a
wonderful police training officer who really fit me well and
really kind of showed me that I could be a
police officer, even though I wasn't like kind of the
typical police officer coming in the door, so to speak.
I remember, I was not great at driving, I was
not great at shooting.

Speaker 4 (03:25):
But when I got.

Speaker 5 (03:26):
Into scenarios, I could talk to people and I could
get them to kind of give me the information I
needed and really lean on those into personal skills.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
So yeah, I was. I had the.

Speaker 5 (03:38):
I guess honor being a police officer for about eleven years,
and I also had some children in there, and then
with my last one, I realized that maybe I didn't
want to be a police marriage statistic My husband was
in the undercover world at that time, and yeah, it
just seemed like lots of people asked me like if

(03:58):
it was a hard decision. I was like, well, it
was hard, but it was almost easy. It was like
the hardest, easiest decision I've made. But for sure there
was tears, like handing back in all the memories in
some ways that and I think you guys have probably
experienced a bit of that too, that you're handing it
all back in and there's a bit of identity tied
up into that, which I mean I can talk for

(04:19):
I can geek out on all that stuff about transitions
and just like you know the importance of purpose and
the importance of knowing who you are, and a lot
of times we kind.

Speaker 4 (04:28):
Of get attached to this is who I am.

Speaker 5 (04:30):
And so when I left, I remember thinking like, oh
what am I?

Speaker 6 (04:35):
Like?

Speaker 5 (04:35):
What will my kids say I am? And you know,
like am I just a mom? And like and like
not shade to that, because there's that's a huge job
in itself. But I really had a hard time kind
of struggle through like now what am I? So yeah,
I ended up actually coming back on the civilian side,
which I always joke is like the dark side, but
it was. It's actually been the best decision for me.

(04:56):
I think I gained a bit of control over my
career and being home and the things that I wanted.
So I landed in comms and I got a whole
different view of the machine from there, so kind of
listening to nine one one and transferring calls and got
to meet some awesome people up there, mostly civilians, and
then I knew that there was jobs as backgrounding investigators,

(05:19):
because I'd done that when I left policing, and so
really like I walked in and I knew it was
a bit of a leap of faith for them as well,
because I wasn't necessarily retired, so to speak, but could
start pretty much on Monday with all the training. So
I was fortunate to get that position. And it was
funny because I walked into recruiting the first day and

(05:41):
it says like Jurassic Park on the door, and I'm
walking in with like, you know, kind of not Jurassic Park.
I have a three year old at home and two
other kids. But it was such a gift in some
ways to be around just a different generation of policing
and see them in some ways, now what I'm facing

(06:01):
is like aging parents and all these things that you know,
I was talking about preschool. So I was kind of
a breath of fresh air for them and kind of updating, like, hey,
these are cell phones and we don't have to say,
we don't have to sit by the phone. But just
awesome people in there at the time and lots of
experience and yeah, kind of welcomed me with open arms
and welcomed all my energy and ideas as well, and

(06:25):
I really felt like I thrived in there and had
the balance of being able to be home but also
having something else to kind of keep me engage and
getting back to the things that I love and actually helping,
you know, the next generation of police officers come in.
And then I was given opportunity to start a new
program called the Recruit Entering Academy, which Scott you're familiar with,

(06:48):
which again, like, I feel like I've been so fortunate
that I get to go to work and it's not
like this statement of like I have to go to
work in that draggy feeling, because I've been able to
kind of use the things that I naturally do well
and I may not get into it, but I took
a Clifton Strengths assessment through a a coworker's spouse, and

(07:09):
I remember thinking, oh, man, I wish I had this
earlier in my career because it just gave me a vocabulary.
It gave me like something to stand on other than like, oh,
I'm a people person and kind of the clique cliche things,
but it gave me an understanding of like, Okay, why
do I love kind of like mentoring and coaching and teaching,
and you know, it feels almost like gasoline for me

(07:29):
when somebody just takes a step forward, and so it
just it focused me in some ways. It kind of
narrowed my focus of like to take on jobs or
roles or tasks or projects that really aligned with my strengths,
but then also understanding what kind of sits outside of
them and what I need to reach out for. So
it's kind of one of those things that was a

(07:49):
real turning point for me of just an understanding of myself.

Speaker 4 (07:53):
And I know I've been accused of.

Speaker 5 (07:55):
Like being someone who doesn't see themselves in the in
the eyes of others, like like giving you guys saying like, oh,
I'm sure we'll get into something interesting. But that gave
me a little bit of a reminder of like, hey,
these are the things you naturally do well. So I
felt fortunate to be able to do that. And then
I brought that into the EPs through the recruit mentoring academy.
I had you Dan as speaker in there and just

(08:17):
kind of prepping people for policing, not just the like
oh you have to be good at tactics and how
to you know, be strong in that, but also like, well,
what does it look like when you actually have to
come in and talk to someone who's had the worst
day of their life and you know communication and yeah,
giving people those that little leg up of confidence in

(08:39):
some ways. And I found like when we were trying
to recruit women, it became almost comical because I was like, oh, man,
you just got to get behind them. They probably have
ninety percent of the skill set, but they just need
someone to say you got this. And so that just
became kind of the I guess my focus in the
mentoring academy, and then I really wanted to kind of

(09:00):
have a bigger impact and take my toys elsewhere. And
on the civilian side, that's sometimes how you have to
roll is there might not be a position coming up,
but having your sights on like, well what is there,
and you know, getting cutting your ducks in a row.
So when there is an opportunity, which I was fortunate
to be given a temporary position up in organizational development,

(09:22):
which I saw as like the next step up of
not just impacting kind of next generation police officers, but
now it's like the whole organization and looking at it,
looking at the machine from again another perspective, and then
that turned into I applied and got that position and
then ended up getting the full time position in there

(09:45):
because someone didn't return from a leave. And so yeah,
I started to kind of like think a bit more
strategically and look at things from a bigger perspective. And
I remember my spouse is also on the job, and
I remember when he got promoted. I just I was
surprised that there wasn't more kind of support for new sergeants,
and especially on his side. He was he was in

(10:06):
a joint force and so it's dealing with RCMP and
municipal and all different kinds of factors, and yeah, you
know what, it was hard to see kind of that
he wasn't able to lean on others. And you know,
there's just wasn't this formal kind of or like informally
even like mentoring. And so my first project that I
sent up the chain, I think probably a week and

(10:27):
a half after I got there, which I'm sure my
boss was like, go great, he says that actually almost
all the time with all my ideas, but stand up
a peer to peer mentoring program that you know, when
you get promoted and you need someone to lean on
that might not be in your sphere or some a coworker,

(10:47):
but someone outside that you can ask those questions to
and meet for coffee. And you know, the parameters are
pretty simple of like six hours over six months, and
I was so it was awesome to see because when
I put the call all out for mentors, I asked
fifty five people and fifty four of them said yes,
and the other one was because of capacity, and tons

(11:10):
of them just said, oh, I wish I had something
like this, And so I knew I was kind of
on the right track. And again, like even looking at
my strengths, it was a project that I was passionate
about with something that I could do. And now that
program has grown into all the way up to our
inspector rank. So yeah, then I moved into Now they've
kind of rebranded and I'm still an organizational development consultant,

(11:31):
but in leadership development. And this is like again I
can geek out big time on leadership development and all
the things that involves. But yeah, that's where I am
now and loving it.

Speaker 6 (11:47):
A couple of things has comeing to mind.

Speaker 3 (11:50):
The mentorship thing would have been great for a bunch
of ranks that I went through and probably you would agree,
and we didn't have that, like we never like you
get to be a detective and you turn into a
detective that day, and then you get to be a
staff sergeant and you're a staff sergeant and you're like,
I don't really know what to do in there. So
I think that's that's awesome. But you said something earlier,

(12:11):
you said you're in a great driver, and you were
in a great shooter. I'm a terrible driver. And I
honestly what it made me think of is gender inequity
in policing.

Speaker 6 (12:23):
As a white male cop, I.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
Can be a terrible driver, and no one was gonna
I'm just a terrible driver when you're a woman, and
then if you feel like you're a terrible driver, then
it becomes, in my opinion, i've seen it become it's
all women police officers like you represent the entire gender
in policing, which and that's got to be a I
don't know if you felt that, or you feel like
if that was something that you struggled with ever, or

(12:46):
I just just curious.

Speaker 6 (12:47):
That's just made me curious about that.

Speaker 5 (12:50):
Yeah, it's funny you say it, because I know I've
talked to other friends on the job, girlfriends on the job,
and there is a bit more of like proving, a
bit more of sometimes it's frustrating because they take the
gender rather than the person and deal with that person.
Or like I was part of the part time program,
which I loved so much, but again it was sometimes

(13:12):
we had some people just like on you know, the
full time side, that just weren't dealt with. But unfortunately
it was like, oh, it's the part time program, right,
rather than dealing with the person. So yeah, Like I
think there is a bit of that inequity, a bit
of like that there's something to prove, we got to
try harder. I'm not saying like, oh, that happens to everyone,
but I know for me, like it just there were

(13:35):
times in my career for sure that I felt like
I had to defend and work harder to prove, like
especially part time, and they'd say, oh, you're part time right, rest,
So then I'd be double down and work harder and
almost be like, well, why am I not coming back
full time because now I'm doing the same amount of work.

Speaker 4 (13:50):
So yeah, going.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
To back you up as well.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
So when you got in or even started thinking about
placing what was it that attracted you? And then part
two of that question is what was it that your
field training officer did to bolster your confidence on the
skill set you did have and then work on the
areas that you needed to work on.

Speaker 5 (14:10):
Okay, so policing kind of came in a roundabout way.
I remember seeing some billboards way back when billboards actually
influenced people before the internet, before the internet and cell
phones and all this, and I remember thinking, like I
played a lot of team sports, and one of the
moments in high school I was I was given an

(14:31):
opportunity to go through the Rotary club to a leadership
conference way back when I didn't even know what a
conference was, but it was all high school students grade
eleven and grade twelve that were seen as leaders in
their schools. And I remember just meeting all of these
people and just this feeling of like, Okay, like I
have something here, There's something that I can bring to
the world in some ways of leadership. And yeah, I

(14:55):
saw a couple of billboards. I remember my spouse was
not super crazy about it because he's from California, where
policing is a bit different, but I felt this real urge.
I'd applied reapplied a couple of times to like go
to an after degree program and took hould my withdrew
my application, And yeah, it was a little bit of like,
I think this is it. I had an uncle who

(15:17):
was in the opp at the time. I'd never actually
met a female police officer, I'd never been pulled over.
I actually think I was probably more suspicious in the
application process because my application was pretty clean from what
I saw after I joined recruiting. But yeah, I saw
it as a way that I could carry on those
skills of like leadership and kind of sports and team

(15:39):
and I liked, you know, kind of athletic things and that.

Speaker 4 (15:42):
So that's what really drew me to it.

Speaker 5 (15:43):
But I definitely there was definitely like people talk about
that confidence gap because I'd never really seen it modeled.
And that's why when I talked to leaders, a lot
of it is like, well what are you modeling? You know,
because it's so powerful to see somebody doing the work
or doing the job or doing the thing that we
all talk about leadership, But what is it? What's the
power behind it? Is really when you see people walking that.

(16:06):
So yeah, it was it was a little bit of like, well,
we'll see how this goes, and then class will see
how this goes, and then on the street, we'll see
how this goes.

Speaker 4 (16:13):
And then to my field training officers.

Speaker 5 (16:16):
I had two very different field training officers, and the
one taught me a different skill set in some ways.
And I do remember, you know, when I met my
second field training officer and we went to this call
and he sat and chatted with this person and took
notes and like just got so much information of talking

(16:37):
about it, whereas you know, let's say the contrast is
more of a process driven style. And I remember being like, Okay, yes,
I can totally do this, Like this is this is
my wheelhouse.

Speaker 4 (16:50):
And he was such an he had such a.

Speaker 5 (16:52):
Positive impact on my career and kind of checked in
with me and like that can be such an awesome
I know it can be hard for a lot of
people that relationship, but for me, it was just like
this confirmation of like, Okay, we can be a little
bit different than the box kind.

Speaker 4 (17:06):
Of police officer and thrive. So I hope that answers
your question.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
So you talked a little bit about the transition from
leaving policing just expand on that a little bit because
we probably can at our own thoughts on that and
then what it's like to be a civilian in the
same organization, because I can also add some thoughts to.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
That, say about transition, right stuff.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
What that was like?

Speaker 5 (17:34):
Yeah, like I said, like, there was lots of tears
shed in some ways of like looking at our recruiting.
I was part of the historian committee or whatever, so
I had a lot of photos and things of recruit
class and memories and just how hard I had worked
and kind of gone outside of my comfort zone to
do policing and felt like it was a really good
fit for me. But also was like looking at these

(17:56):
three little people and my spouse and being like, okay,
what's you know? Something needs to shift here and I
and there was something there that I was like, you
know what, I think that's okay. But I did find
and people will say did you ever regret it? And
the only time I remember regretting it was they needed
community helpers in like grade one, and I just thought,

(18:17):
oh man, it's so powerful to see a female or
a mom come in and do that role that's kind
of typically dominated by male. But I have some great
friends who are females on the job who were able
to kind of fill in that spot. But that was
actually been the only time that I have kind of
had this like, oh, I wish that I could do
that for my kids.

Speaker 4 (18:37):
Second question, civilian life. Civilian life.

Speaker 5 (18:41):
Yeah, I think in some ways, I'll often introduce myself
as a bit of a hybrid, So I say, you
know what, I kind of know this swornside, my tiny
bit of street time, and I kind of understand some
of the struggles behind it, But I also see the
civilian side of like, you know, a lot of the
machine runs based on civilians, who are, you know, the
consistent factor in each unit, which I think everybody knows.

Speaker 4 (19:04):
When you go to a station, you look for the.

Speaker 5 (19:06):
Admin of the station because they're going to know how
things run and where you need to be and what
you need to do. But I have seen, like unfortunately,
seen a little bit of that dynamic of being second class,
And not that I've necessarily experienced it, but I've definitely
seen co workers who just have a really hard time
kind of fitting into the culture of policing, which can

(19:28):
be really hard, and so you know, in some ways,
some of that is like Okay, well, how can I
help on this side or how can we get you know,
more sworn involved and have an understanding of what they're doing?

Speaker 4 (19:40):
And yeah, I do.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
I have.

Speaker 5 (19:43):
I think the world of all the civilians that work
in the EPs because they're there for a different they're
there for the same reason but in a different way,
but sometimes are shadowed a little bit.

Speaker 6 (19:54):
Actually have it.

Speaker 3 (19:55):
It's interesting that you say that, because there I think
there's always been a bit of othering to the civilian staff.
I think it's I think it's gotten better than it
was when we first started, and maybe I think it has.
But I had an instant o career with a female
civilian staff member who had to go to court for
some reason, and I ran into her in the front.

(20:16):
I knew her because she worked in SEEPIC and I'm like,
what's going on? You look like real stressed. So I
got to go to court. I've never been to court before.
I'm like, let's go, I'll take you there and whatever
went to court with her. She wrote this amazing letter
basically thanking me for doing something, and I thought to myself,
anybody would do that, It's just what was her experiences
before that? Made her feel the necessity to write a

(20:37):
letter because if it was you had start at the
front counter, you'd go on same with you like you did.
But and knowing her a bit throughout the years, she
talked about having some really challenging moments with the sworn members,
treating the individuals and sleep it quite poorly. And again,
I think that has changed significantly since we started, but
it is it was always the like you said, almost

(21:00):
like a second class citizen kind of thing, and I
think again, I think it's changing. But people, you made
a great point. The organization would not run without the
civilian staff, and some of these people stay for forty years, right,
forty five years, Like I was just thinking, I'm just
thinking of Sandy, like what she was forty five years

(21:21):
and the organizational history that these folks have is oftentimes
forgotten and people need to, I think, need to lean
heavier on those civilian staff that have been in those
positions for a long time. I just thought I'd just
give that shout out to all the civilians.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
And you could see that when the panic started to
set in. When CSU fifty two, which is the union
represents most civilians with GPS, was talking about striking, and
all of a sudden, the backs got up a little
bit like, oh no, that's like, how are we gonna
do that. We're gonna have to have contingencies. And that
was the first time I think there was a real
appreciation that was at an organizational level, because it is
different because I've experience retiring from as a high rank

(22:03):
and the kind of the watershed moment when I knew
I was now quote unquote a civilian was I was
walking around an area looking for somebody or something kemera
what it was like, Hey, do you know where X is?
And if I walk through with all the blaying on
my shoulders, ten people would oh, over here, sir, I'll
shoot you right there. I'm going excuse me, I say, anybody,
and they kind of look from their cubby holes kind
of little headshake like no, too fucking I don't care

(22:25):
about you at all, and then right back down. I'm like, Okay,
this is what everybody's been talking about.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
Now I get it.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
But she was fine, but it was because it was
amusing and it was interesting. But they're they're for sure
it's a different, and I agree with you that it's
probably much better than it used to be. I think
I don't know. Yeah, but because in policing, and I'm
speaking where we came from with Edmonton Police, we as
cops move around all the time like we're in a
job for two to five years tops, and then we

(22:52):
move on to something else, and those same civilians stay
in those areas forever and ever. And I don't think
unless you are paying attention you understand what a great
resource they are. Like if you go to be let's say,
inspector in a division, you go to that admin and go, hey,
have we ever tried this? Almost guaranteed everything's been tried
already and probably has failed because it was a shitty

(23:13):
idea by some person of a high rank like me
who was thinking they're inventing something and there was no
need for inventing because it's already been deinvented ten times
from Sunday.

Speaker 6 (23:22):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
One other interesting thing I think you'll have this two
Scotty from work in where we worked, is the civilians
worked with our dad so many times like we would
because our dad was a police officer for twenty eight
years or something. So then by the time we started
recycling through whatever area we were in and I'll use
Technical Support units as perfect example, because Dad was the

(23:46):
staff sergeant of Technical Support Unit, and then I wrote
several wire taps and it was all the people that
Dad supervised when he was a staff sergeant in there,
and it's that's where for me, I kind of had
a That's where it kind of dawned on me in
that time, was these people know everything and they've been
around forever. And same thing that you said, like, there's

(24:09):
no need to invent anything, just go ask someone and
they'll tell you how to do this. And the civilians,
the civilians could up there could have written by ore
taps way better than the cops. So as we were
learning to do, especially when you're writing your first one,
the civilians could have just ripped through that. But nope,
it's got to be a sworn member because of all
the rules and all the things. But I just do
I think it's I think people forget to honor and

(24:31):
appreciate those civilians because yeah, when you're I think it was,
I'm trying to think who it was. It worked with
all of us through as a civilian and worked with
Uncle Randy too. Oh it was because of PSB Maddie,
so Maddie actually had Dad as a in there, Scottie
as a detective, me as a detective.

Speaker 6 (24:50):
Uncle Randy as like her. She worked with our whole
whole family, and she was awesome. Some would say the
fucking shittiest lottery ever.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah, you don't want to buy a ticket.

Speaker 6 (25:02):
And I actually have to say I'm I'm not.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
I won't say Maddi's last name, but Mattie was one
of the coolest people ever.

Speaker 6 (25:08):
She knew everything, but I was.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
I would do a thing called rap Fridays in PSB
where I would crank up like Eminem and she she
would come in and she'd be.

Speaker 6 (25:17):
Dancing let's get down the business. I loved it. She
got to know the words to the wraps. I just loved.
She was just a great character too.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
Just before you jump in, because I Maddie also smoked.
So on my last day in PSB, I thought, well,
you can't kick me out now, So Maddie, can I
get one of your darts?

Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah? Sure, So I grab one of her darts. Light up.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
I started walking around the PSB office having a dart,
walking around the office, and I sit down in one
of the staff starting's office and he's like what do
you what are you doing? Is he's cough asking me
like having a cigarette. I'm fucking leaving here. You can't
kick me out? No, what do you wants to be here?
We're gonna back it up to clifton Strengths. So you

(25:57):
talked about you just kind of glazed over that, and
I guarantee most people will have no idea what that is.
So walk us through how you first came to see it,
and then how you came to be as involved in
that and why.

Speaker 5 (26:10):
Okay, yeah, So Clifton's Strengths is an assessment done through
Gallop and it again, like when I talked about like that,
it was one of those things that I wish I
had earlier in my career because it gave me a language.
It gave me a vocabulary to describe the things I
naturally do well. And that's what the assessment measures. Is
kind of like it's almost like drops in the bucket.

(26:32):
There's thirty four strengths, and based on how you answer
the questions, it kind of drops those those answers in
there and comes out with a profile. And for me,
my profile was so clear, like it was so right
on point that even when I was doing the recruitmentoring academy,
I could say I get to use my strengths every day.

(26:55):
And do you think I loved my job. I loved
it because it was like I got to go and
do the things that were really easy. The job was
really easy for me because it was like, oh, I
get to build this, I get to connect people. I
get to you know, give them some advice and guidance
and skill up in areas.

Speaker 4 (27:10):
And so that became kind of a driver.

Speaker 5 (27:14):
Even when I went into organizational development and leadership development,
of like how do we get this to more people?
This assessment is easy, it's not you know, you answer
about let's say twenty minutes it takes and we'll.

Speaker 4 (27:27):
Spit out your full thirty four, your top five.

Speaker 5 (27:30):
And it was it was not just about like, oh,
let's get this in the hands of you know, employees,
but also leaders. And I've had leaders come back and say,
you know what, that session was so good because it
really gave me an insight into that why that person
does the things they do. And some of them might
be their greatest strengths coming out, but I mean I
always say, like, our greatest strengths really are the ones

(27:51):
that kick us in the butt. But it comes to
awareness of like, okay, that's what that looks like when
I might be causing friction, you know, or like I
know I have an achieved for strength and sometimes I
mean my spouse will say for sure, but it can
take over and work can be more important than people.
And when you look at my profile, that makes no
sense because it's all about people. But there's something about

(28:13):
that achiever strength that I can sit there and want
to get something done and be uber focused on it
and have to really boundary that strength. I don't necessarily
have to get better at it because it's there and
it's thriving, But it's more like how do I make
sure that this doesn't cause conflict or friction? And again
it's that I always say, it's like that self awareness
tool that you're like, oh, okay, these are the things

(28:34):
I naturally this is when I get energy from something.
So people who haven't done the assessment, you can almost
think back of like what gives me energy in a
task that I do or a skill that I'm using
and that I could do again. If someone said, hey,
twenty minutes later, can you do that again?

Speaker 4 (28:49):
And you're like.

Speaker 5 (28:49):
Yeah, heck yeah, those things that maybe you kick around
your desk or you procrastinate on, or just you know,
you have to focus and a bit drains you. It
probably falls into your lesser strengths. And it's not an
idea of like oh I can do these things and
I can't do those. It's more like, yeah, I'm gonna
have to work hard to get you know, like analytics
is my bottom strength, not I would say my very

(29:12):
lesser strength. I don't see patterns in data. It's worked
for me to kind of sit down and think of
like evaluation plans and really work the numbers and everything.
But I have now you know, I have my actually
thirty four listed, and I have people's names that lead
with those strengths. And there's no better compliment that If
I said, Hey, Dan, you know, this is one of
your strengths and I need to lean in on your

(29:33):
brain because your brain is amazing and works differently than mine.

Speaker 4 (29:36):
You'd probably be like, heck, yeah, what do you got?

Speaker 5 (29:38):
And that is the response I always because you're noticing
something about someone that they naturally do well. Right, So
when someone says, Heather, you know, what can you help me?
You know think of I had a unit that typically
doesn't need any help. They're kind of the pretty people
in the organization that carry guns reached out to me
for a mentoring program.

Speaker 4 (29:56):
And I was like obsessed.

Speaker 5 (29:58):
Like they called me on a Friday afternoon, and all
I can think about that weekend.

Speaker 4 (30:02):
Was like, Okay, how do I do this? How do
I connect them?

Speaker 5 (30:06):
Whereas my boss will say, hey, we have to you know,
get this invoice in these irax and all that stuff,
I will absolutely push that to Monday and think kind
of dread those tasks. So that's another way of like
without doing the assessment is kind of looking for those things,
what gives you energy, what makes gives you that spark,
what you're like, Yeah, I could do that ten times
over and not be bored with it and then focus

(30:27):
on those rather than me Like if I really focus
on analytics or like you know, being more Oh, there's
a couple other ones up there, like contextual in that
it would be exhausting and I would get mediocre at
best because it doesn't come naturally to me. So a
lot of people will say, well, what are my weaknesses.
I want to work on them, which is really societal

(30:48):
where we have this kind of deficit kind of mind
where we say, oh, you know what because feedback. I mean,
when we grew up on the job. In some ways
that's what it was. It was like you really get
to kind of the you know, sandwich, you're really good
at this, you're really bad at this, go do better,
and you're like, Okay, I gotta go to better, I
gotta go do these things better. Well, I know that
if I worked on those things that fit in my

(31:09):
lesser strengths, I would be at best mediocre at them.
Someone else could sit down and be like five It's
almost like using AI chat GBT thirty seconds and they've
got something for you. A lot of the times when
I lean on others, it's easy. They're just like that,
and I can't even believe how well they've done something
because it's so outside of my norm probably vice versa

(31:29):
same thing.

Speaker 4 (31:30):
How can you do that just so easily?

Speaker 3 (31:32):
Right?

Speaker 5 (31:33):
So, yeah, that has been something that I've really kind
of It's like my legacy piece of the organization is
making it making better humans, making people more self aware.
You know, a lot of our conflict is really our strengths.
And so it's like, I mean conflict is another thing
that just bubbles up, and sometimes it is it's like

(31:54):
I'm working in my strength and you're working in yours,
and we have a natural conflict here. But what it
did is it gave me grace when dealing with that
person and really thinking through of like how can I
make this a maybe instead of a no? How can
I answer ten questions down to three that they're probably
going to have?

Speaker 3 (32:12):
Right?

Speaker 5 (32:13):
So even improving communication between co workers and leaders. I've
definitely experienced that myself, but also been able to say, well,
what else could be going on and what else could
we be thinking about, which the coaching takes over.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
So, were you a naturally introspective person like you seem
to be self aware right from the start, and then
so that part and this obviously feeds into that. And
then when you have people take these tests, are there
times when someone who has zero self awareness then the
test doesn't really change anything and they're like I don't
even know what this means, or this isn't me at all,

(32:48):
or any of those kind of things, Like I think
this is a really good way to objectively give a
member a measurement for an introspection or a kind of
a self assessment, but sometimes ego gets in the way
or somebody who's not self aware at all, Like, I
think this feeds better if you have some openness humility,

(33:10):
But if you're really closed minded and don't have a
growth mindset, is there some barriers there?

Speaker 4 (33:15):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 5 (33:16):
Like within the questions, I'm trying to think, like, I
don't know that you need to have like a ton
of self awareness to take the assessment, because when you're
reading the question, it's really like I enjoy I don't know,
maybe one of the questions is like I enjoy crunching numbers,
I enjoy connecting with people. I enjoy, you know, talking
about really big ideas, you know, and so people generally

(33:38):
will know those things about themselves.

Speaker 4 (33:40):
They're not like really like hard questions.

Speaker 5 (33:43):
Another thing that Clifton does is that it times you
so you only have a certain amount of time to answer.
So it's a real gut reaction, which some people don't
like because they can't overthink it, right, But we don't
want the overthinking. We don't want someone to sit there
and be like, oh, I'm taking it for Dan, what
would Dan want me to do?

Speaker 4 (34:00):
Answer?

Speaker 5 (34:00):
Here?

Speaker 4 (34:00):
You know, what would be the thing that you know?

Speaker 5 (34:03):
And that's why you would never use it for like
hiring or firing or anything like that, because it's really
a self it's a personal preference assessment. So it's it's
really you're kind of just answering the questions. There's science
behind it, but it's not something that if you're hiring
in a spot and you're like, oh, we need everybody
that has analytics in their top five, they probably you know,

(34:25):
could do the job, but you just you never know.
So it's more of like I always say in the
in the workshop that I do is like the beginning
is self, and then we start moving into social and
working with others and you know, looking at our strength
of like the positives and how to grow in them.

Speaker 4 (34:44):
But then we start to go, right.

Speaker 5 (34:45):
Oh, yeah, I've got to work with these people and
what are their strengths and you know, what could my
strengths do to maybe cause friction or conflict? And how
can I you know, when I know that about it,
what am I going to do about it? And so
there was an activity that used to say, you know,
like what do you like about this strength? And then
what could cause conflict or friction and then there was

(35:06):
nothing else, and I was like, hey, we're going to
add a column here to action, like what can you
do when you know when you recognize? And a lot
of it is feedback or like being you know, going
to that person that you can trust and don't feel
like you know, it's a real harsh, harsh feedback.

Speaker 4 (35:21):
But like, how did I do in there?

Speaker 5 (35:22):
What did you see? You know, I'm really gaining understanding
of working with others. So like your emotional intelligence improves,
your self awareness improves the more you dig into yourself
and how you react.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
So just a question, yeah, that the Clifton assessment? Does
it ever lay over? Do you utilize Meyer's Briggs along
with it? When you look at the strengths and weakness
and then a personality profile? Like does that do those
things ever cross paths?

Speaker 5 (35:49):
I mean I've been asked about it and disk and
all these different ones.

Speaker 4 (35:53):
I haven't layered them.

Speaker 5 (35:54):
I haven't done a whole lot of like kay, let's
take this and that, partially because I'm not trained in
a lot of those ones and know them as well.
So from my perspective, I think there is personality probably
that's tied into clift and strengths, but this is more like,
I think the things you naturally do well, so maybe
more of that skill that you have. People have asked me,

(36:18):
you know, like how does this compare? And I usually
have to kind of do a little bit of research
to compare the two because they're all personal preference surveys,
so they're all measuring something. So I always just say, hey,
what did you take from that, and how can you
build further into it? Right? So, I know I took
Core Insights or something they changed the name of, but
it says in conflict, I accommodate, And so from that assessment,

(36:42):
I was like, Okay, what's the good part about accommodating
a conflict and what's the negative? And how can I
kind of find that balance? So anything that you take,
I always just say, like, take something from it. There's
always a nugget, There's always something there. Clifton Strengths is
certainly not the be all endle There's a lot of
kind of similar things. But for me, it was like
the ease of the assessment that I just got it

(37:03):
right away, and most people do. Most people, you know,
we'll have those AHAs. I'll get a few arms crossed,
usually from the swarm side when they come in and
you know, want to know when we're going to talk
about weaknesses, which again I get it. It's like that's
the culture in some ways that we've set up and
society says, you know, if you only had this, you'd
be better, So you work at that, but this is

(37:25):
this is the space where like if you find the
things you naturally do well and continue, like it's exponentially
you can just continue to get.

Speaker 4 (37:32):
Better and better and better.

Speaker 5 (37:34):
So I really I do think that it can be
kind of a game changer for people in their careers
but also just kind of in life and like how
do you grow in that? Because I know people will say, well,
I'm different at home than I at work, and I
question it. They might show up different, it might look different,
but I know, like I'm a developer, you know, with
my kids, that's my top strength of like really kind

(37:56):
of coaching, teaching, mentoring.

Speaker 4 (37:58):
It might look different. I might be a bit more
like giving.

Speaker 5 (38:01):
Advice a little more directive at at home, where is
at work there's more freedom to kind of ask the questions.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
So because I just remember that, I don't know if
you remember this but there was a time when EPs
was putting your Myers Briggs personality on your business card.
Oh wow, like they would put your four letters that
you They're like, oh yeah, people are like, oh yeah,
great to know what people's personality profile is. I'm like,
that's insane, Like that is insane and somebody probably promoted

(38:29):
over that, whoever it is.

Speaker 6 (38:30):
If you're listening, congratulations.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
You kind of answer my question already, do you, Cause
you don't just do this for police agencies. You also
do it externally like to others. So is there differences
on how it's received or what the results may be
or it just doesn't really matter and people are people?

Speaker 4 (38:52):
Yeah, I think people are people for sure.

Speaker 5 (38:54):
Like I know a lot of people assume that like
command would be a real high Clifton strength and policing,
and it's actually not. The relater strength continues to kind
of be the strength that leads leads the organization, which
is a bit typical.

Speaker 4 (39:09):
Like it's one of the more popular ones.

Speaker 5 (39:10):
It's yeah, it's it's like you prefer one on one interactions,
you work well in a tight group.

Speaker 4 (39:17):
Lots of relaterers will.

Speaker 5 (39:18):
Have friends from like grade school that they've just carried
on and their friend card is a bit full, you
know that they don't really need, whereas like WU is
I think, Dan, you might you might have a WU
where you're you have a large friendship circle that you
can make friends with lots of people.

Speaker 6 (39:34):
That's not wrong. I have a lot of acquaintances. Yeah,
I don't have a lot of friends.

Speaker 3 (39:37):
Yeah, like networking, lots of people that don't know me
and yeah them, but they know nothing about me at all. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (39:42):
I have a very very small group of people that
actually know me. Yeah, personally.

Speaker 5 (39:46):
Yeah, So typically, like like I know, in some ways
when people have WU, they do really well and like
undercover work because you are building rapport quickly and you're
getting out of there right.

Speaker 4 (39:58):
But to your question was about.

Speaker 5 (40:02):
Oh, externally, Yeah, yeah, like I think that in some ways,
starting with like a law enforcement agency is like.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
You've you've had your work cut out for you.

Speaker 5 (40:11):
And so I find working outside and in kind of
even in government or private industry, it's easier. People are
a bit more, they have more training and development kind
of that they're offered. Being on the law enforcement side,
it gives me ease dealing with you know, let's say
the military or organizations that typically are a little bit

(40:31):
harder to be a facilitator in. I'm I'm very comfortable
in that, in that crowd and that culture. But yeah,
typically it's like even when I get a group of
civilians in EPs, they're so they're so happy to get
training in some ways, which.

Speaker 4 (40:45):
Is sad, but yeah, the ease of it, like they
don't have a lot of walls.

Speaker 5 (40:52):
There's a There's a cool thing that I had read
about Vanessa von Edwards. She talks about charisma, and I
tie this to like working with teams. So chrisma is
a mixture of competence and warmth. And so I'll often say,
like on a leadership you know, course or whatever, I'll so,
you know, think of in the organization who has both,

(41:13):
who has that sweet spot of competence and warmth. And
I'm getting you, guys, I can already tell you're thinking
about it, and you think of those people, and there's
not very many. There's not very many that have that
sweet spot. There's some that have a high competence, there's
some that have a really high warmth. But as a
facilitator outside I balance it of like in the job,

(41:34):
in the job, when there's lots of sworn and stuch.
I have a high competence and I bring my warmth
up to find that suit spot. But when dealing with
civilians or a private industry, that warmth is very important
as a facilitator and then that competence comes right, so
you kind of you're constantly balancing. But when I speak
to leaders about that and how to improve or like
get them to kind of be aware of like, well

(41:55):
what do you bring, like what do you think are
you are you super warm are you competent? Do you
see can you sense the difference? And then helping them
kind of like you can build warmth, you can build competence, right,
but it's being aware and so it goes all the
way back to like that reflective piece that like self awareness.
So a lot of times we'll start with Clifton strength.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
And the first person who popped in my head was
deb Jolly Yeah for competence and warmth like who since
passed away. So she was one of the best bosses
I had. She was the one of the almost only
bosses I didn't pick fights with because I really really
enjoyed picking fights with bosses, and I would have taken
a bullet to protect her. She was a remarkable individual,
so I learned a ton from her.

Speaker 5 (42:34):
Yeah, so not very many, right, Like you're kind of
thinking of those people, but those people who are listening
and and you've been like, if you identify like competence,
it's usually like you walk into a room and people
ask you for directions or they you know, there's an
emergency and people naturally come to you, or like do
you work here because you're you're you're emitting something right
for people with high warmth, you know, sometimes it's as

(42:57):
simple as like a head tilt can make people think
that you're not as competent. Right, So it's like just
even there's so many little things that you can do
to kind of improve both sides. But again it's like
being aware of, first off, where do I sit on
that scale? And then you know what can I do
to improve?

Speaker 4 (43:15):
So lots of good stuff.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
Well, there probably still has to be some authenticity to it, right,
Like we can sociopath it up and all of a
sudden be super kind and gentle and even when you're
not right, So it still has to be your true
authentic self.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
But just knowing probably.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Where your opportunities are if you're coming across as a
total bowl and you just everybody's like, fuck, I don't
want to talk to that guy because you're running them over.
Then figure out how to soften that a bit. But
it can't be where it's not you.

Speaker 5 (43:42):
No, it has to be authentic, like you have to
find the things that you can do. I know, I
had a leader once who moved into a higher level
and they understood. They're like, I know that I struggle
with kind of connecting with people, and so it was
actually using their analytical strength. And what they did was
they built a spreadsheet, which I always like qualify it's

(44:03):
like it's not a creepy spreadsheet, but it could be
perceived as that. But they wrote down all their names
of their of their direct reports and when they would
do kind of their rounds and you know they're kind
of their besting time and getting to know people. They
weren't great, they knew that it was important to connect
through like knowing names of kids and like activities and

(44:24):
such like that. So he would go out and do
that and then come back and fill in his spreadsheet
and reminders of like you know, spouse's names and that stuff.
Because he knew that was important, so it wasn't like
it wasn't disingenuous or anything. It was really authentic in
that he's like, I'm using this strength that I have
that's very analytical, very discipline, that stuff contextual, but I'm

(44:44):
going to make it work for me in my leadership.
And he retired as one of the leaders who just
connected with the people like that. They were like, oh,
he's so for the people, and I'm like, this is amazing,
Like he he really changed his like he was he
was warm, like that's how they was for see him,
but really like that took work on his part to

(45:04):
do that.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
What's interesting too, because I can't remember who said the
quote that leadership can't be taught, it can only be learned,
which I think is an interesting thing. But I also
have seen and I have names in my head who
have people who have taken a leadership course and come
out as the course like totally just genuine like.

Speaker 6 (45:26):
We are we are. I am a people person.

Speaker 3 (45:28):
You have never been a people person, probably not a
people person. But it's interesting because some people take it
like this individual you're just talking about. I have a
person in my mind who I think it might be
and I'm not gonna ask you, but it makes me
think of one specific person and who was a leader of.

Speaker 6 (45:45):
Mine who I learned a ton from.

Speaker 3 (45:48):
Is one of the best bosses I ever had, but
was not a people person per se, but was a
really good person and had a lot of and we
both work for him. I know you know exactly what
I'm talking. But interesting when people lean into their strengths
and don't try to fix their weaknesses, and I think
that's the that's the I think that's the biggest flaw

(46:08):
in I would say society as a whole, but definitely
in policing because I.

Speaker 6 (46:13):
Remember I went to.

Speaker 3 (46:16):
What was it called board of evaluators when someone's about
trying to get fired. So I had this recruit in
my division. I was a staff sergeant and I had
this recruit, and I'd been to calls with this individual
and they were I felt.

Speaker 6 (46:29):
They were competent.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
But the two PTOs felt that this person was unable
to communicate. And the only difference, when you get right
down to it, was it had nothing to do with
when they were at calls. It had to do in
the car time. And the one was a super introvert.
The recruit was superly introverted, and they're both ftos or
PTOs were super extroverts, and they wanted to fire this

(46:53):
person because of introversion, not because of their cars. So
when we ended up shutting the board of evaluators down,
I'm like, we're not talking about his ability at a call.
We're talking about you guys don't have you guys have
conflicting personalities. And you think, as his not having small
talk is this painful for you? Not having small talk
is as painful as him having small talk for like,

(47:14):
you have to figure out each other. And I think
sometimes that's where things get kind of wire cross because
we think the person is weak because they are introverted
or they are so they don't talk as much.

Speaker 6 (47:24):
And it's just interesting. I'm just interested in what you're
talking about. I have no idea where I'm just color
me interested. I find it fascinating.

Speaker 5 (47:34):
It's fascinating, and I think, like, I know we do
this in the police training course. We just started with
Clifton's strengths and just even having like a primary secondary
look at the strengths of a you know, kind of
take out the name of the and how how would
you work with this person, what are your strengths that
are different and just getting to know them and being
like you may end up with someone who's really detail

(47:55):
oriented in this and you want to just go out
and fix the problem and they're still kind of thinking
about it.

Speaker 4 (48:00):
You're gonna have a natural conflict.

Speaker 5 (48:01):
Just like I said that you like, and how do
you understand that and kind of like reflect on it
rather than just like start documenting, right, because that's what
it becomes, is like, and then you get your narrative
out there, and then you know, all of a sudden,
everybody fits your narrative and that that recruit needs to
be fired or that person or whatever. So yeah, like
my my in some ways like push and that legacy

(48:23):
piece is like how how can we do better to
each other? And and I really see this as like
if I know, you know kind of my strengths and
I wanted to correct, like with your weaknesses. I never
say like ignore them, manage them, know they're there, know
exactly how they look when they come out or when
you're when you're kind of you know, maybe your strengths

(48:43):
are becoming weaknesses. But again that that's that's a high
level of self awareness that's wanting to dig in even
when it's like hard, when it's stuff that you don't
really like doing or whatever. But the more you know
about yourself, the better you are to work with others.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
And I would imagine humility she is you go higher
in the ranks, because what I noticed in as I
got up higher, the senior officers at times would be
unable to say, I don't know right, so they're not
they asked a question. You can know everything. Policing is
so wide and vast and complicated, and that's the beauty
of it because if you're really detail oriented, well, hey

(49:18):
we got a job for you. After a couple five
years in patrol, you want to be a forensic member.
You're going to love the minutia of that kind of stuff. Right,
there's so many different your people or person and you
want to work with you go be a schoolers or
sselves or like, there's.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
So many cool jobs.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
But at times I think the failing of leaders that
from sergeant all the way up to chief would be
lacking humility. So does Cliftons have something in there that
looks at that or that would identify in a more
euphemistic way, I guess to deal with that gap.

Speaker 5 (49:48):
Yeah, I guess it'd be like, you know, describing what
humility means. So is it that you're able to kind
of get down to the minutia of the person, that
you're able to kind of see hop in their shoes,
have empathy, all the sensitively that stuff.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (50:03):
I think anytime you can become more aware, chances are
you're gonna give that grace, you're gonna be a little
bit more like, okay, what else could be going on here?
And I know on some leadership courses it's exactly that.
Like I said, right when you figure, right when you
think you know that person's lazy, oh, that person's late
because they don't care, ask a question, Ask what question specifically?

Speaker 4 (50:25):
You know, like you know, what else could be going on?
First off?

Speaker 5 (50:28):
Is a great question because a lot of times it
is it's like you see someone take the elevator and
you're like, well they're lazy, right, you jump right to it,
like that's that's human instinct. But then it's like, but
what else could be going on? Oh, they might have
hurt their foot, they might have done this, like you know,
just kind of giving space to people that something else
could be happening rather than jumping right in. I think
is a great human trait and a lot of leaders

(50:50):
have it, and then a lot of people don't that
we kind of jump and it's a real tricky thing
because it's your job. It's your job to kind of
jump to conclusions in some ways of like this is
what's happening and make a decision on what's happening, and
you're paid.

Speaker 4 (51:03):
To do that.

Speaker 5 (51:04):
And the challenge is is like not at like a
really high call that you're like, well, what else could
we do here other than breaking down the door when
that really needs to happen. But it's like when you
have the time and you have you know, I guess
the group in front and it's not emergent, is there
an opportunity to ask more questions? There always is, but

(51:25):
we just sometimes take that easy road of like I
know what's going on here and this is how we're
going to proceed, And that's when the human factor kind
of gets squashed.

Speaker 3 (51:35):
Yeah, that's yeah, it's so interesting because having and that's
one thing that you talked to earlier, Scott, is we
move around so much that we've had so many different leaders,
right like as sworn members. You just you have so
many different leaders, and you have some great ones, and
you have ones that you're like, how in the f
did this person even get to be a cop let

(51:57):
alone be promoted once twice, three times? And you're just like,
what is going on? And you're right, something else might
have been going on, And that's something that that we're
I'm pretty bad at it. He's terrible at it. When
he's driving, he wouldn't ever, he would never think under,
oh is that person's day going.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
I could give a hundred days, like ten times on
the way here because I drove from challenge for I
know I'm trying.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
It's not going well.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
Even and he talked about this on our last podcast.
Had a lady, an elderly woman in her eighties come
up to him and apologize and touch his arm and
say that she was sorry for upsetting him.

Speaker 6 (52:35):
I deserved.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
Destroyed me with one light rush.

Speaker 3 (52:39):
For him, destroyed with kindness, and I heard it. Okay,
I'm gonna pivot now because you also happen to have
you have another you have a partner who's also unpleasing.
So I have a couple of questions about that. You
were in policing together and then you left, So how

(52:59):
does changed the way you think about when he goes
to work? And a big question for me is you
had a husband who did undercover work, and what's it
like being a spouse of an undercover operator because my
wife didn't enjoy it.

Speaker 5 (53:18):
Yeah, I think like in some ways we talk shop
a lot, like we know each other's world, which I
think some people will, you know, say like that's bad,
and I think it's great. I think it's like I
can I can understand, I know the players in some
ways that he's dealing with. Undercover world was very unpredictable.

Speaker 4 (53:36):
I will say.

Speaker 5 (53:39):
There were times that I know he was you know,
I was working part time and really like he would
watch the kids on the days that I went in
and he phones me and he's like in Vancouver and
I was like, right, okay.

Speaker 4 (53:50):
So this is not going to work.

Speaker 5 (53:52):
So yeah, it was really challenging, and I think I
think in some ways it was easier because I understood
how the undercover world worked from inside, but from an
outside perspective. I was able to ask questions about, you know,
like how safe is this where you going? Like that
things I had. I had access to his his you know,
kind of his chain of command as well his his coworkers,

(54:15):
which I understand like lots of kind of spouses wouldn't
so in some ways, the challenge was that you're a
single parent, right, and that that time, I know I
had two.

Speaker 4 (54:25):
Maybe three, I can't remember, but.

Speaker 5 (54:29):
Yeah, you would you know, I'd be like, hey, if
I put them in this program, I'm the one that
has to get them to and from so can I
do that?

Speaker 4 (54:35):
Right?

Speaker 5 (54:35):
It becomes a little bit and we actually when I
was in recruiting, we did a support your Recruit night
and we had spouses and parents, anybody that was the
support of the recruit.

Speaker 4 (54:43):
But the recruits were invited and opened.

Speaker 5 (54:46):
The floor to like questions and had done a survey
on the EPs spouse group at the time as the
Family Association now, and they said the same thing in
some ways of like, you know what you are, your
best friend or whoever is going into class is going
to be gone, So what does that look like? What
is the roles that they take on that you're going

(55:06):
to have to do, and just kind of prepping them
a little bit because your spouse signs up for it,
and then you're like, great, we're you know, you're in
the police, and then you realize like, oh, this does
affect me and especially recruit class the demands of that.
But yeah, I had a good circle of friends. I live, like,
you know, we live where my family is, so I
had family around as well, but I had friends that

(55:28):
were in policing, and so it was like easy to say,
you know, he's on shift, where he's sleeping, can I
come over or can we meet at a park or
you know, something like that, just to get kids out
of the house and that.

Speaker 4 (55:39):
But no, not easy. Not easy.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
And did it change when you stopping a police officer
moving to civilian or was it because you're already part
of the organization it was status quo Or was there
a shift there?

Speaker 5 (55:54):
Yeah, I wouldn't say like, because I still had an
understanding of what the work he was doing. So I
wouldn't say there was a shift because in some ways,
like I left, but I came back, right, So I
just came back in a different capacity and paid less
and you.

Speaker 4 (56:10):
Know all those kids, Yeah exactly.

Speaker 5 (56:15):
But no, I wouldn't say like it changed when I
left because I was still kind of in it.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
Because we're coming up to an hour. See how that
went so fast? I does we're what if? We were
called alarmingly disarming by jeff Westman. Jeffrey Westman was on
here and you call us, yeah, he's the best. What's
not next for you? As far as oh my god,
you're quitting and now you just told the world that
not the world, that's whatever. A couple three hundred people,

(56:45):
nine people to listen to this because you seem like
a you're not a status quo person. Wherever you are,
you go and make the place better. And that's a
very unique quality, which you may not give yourself no
credit for, because.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
I don't know, there's lots of people who don't do that.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
They kind of go to work, they do the thing,
they push the buttons as necessary, and then they but
you kind of look across a landscape and like you said,
within a week and a half, here's my proposal to
make things better. What is the next steps of making
things better in or out of the organization?

Speaker 5 (57:18):
Oh? Man, I had somebody ask me kind of what
my next step was, and I said, I don't actually
know if the job that I'm going to next has
been invented. Like I feel like I'm in a great space,
and I have great supervisors and that that really let
me be creative. And so I don't I don't actually
know what the next thing is. I know the things

(57:39):
I want to do. Like we just rolled out a
third party conflict for leaders, which is something that kind
of became very apparent when I was doing executive coaching
of sergeants and up and everybody was, you know, coming
to coaching calls that they were in conflict with themselves,
with the organization, with someone else and conflict. Every theme

(58:00):
was conflict, and so that was the natural kind of
next step for me to take. I took my mediation
certificate and really dove into the world of like how
do we skill up leaders in conflict because the.

Speaker 4 (58:12):
Cost of conflict is astronomical.

Speaker 5 (58:14):
Like you look even you know, for your nine listeners
in you and thinking about a conflict that you know
of that I has or hasn't gone to formal kind
of like you know, kind of a crisis. You think
of absenteeism, you think of sick days, you think of
you know, kind of when something blows up and then
everybody's on their phones and like the group Chad, and

(58:36):
you know, like I think cy wakeman. They she or sorry,
I can't remember what the book is called, but might
be even called just like no Drama or something. But
they talked about like sometimes it's two whole days of
hours that people are talking about conflict, drama, conflict, right,
and I think our tool days sorry of that a week,

(58:57):
So that is a significant amount of loss of time time, right,
And then you don't even count the like, oh, I'm
mad at Danny, so I'm not going to give him
this report.

Speaker 4 (59:05):
I'm going to give him this one.

Speaker 5 (59:07):
I'm not gonna I'm gonna withhold, right, And so that
became again that natural next step. So I'm kind of like, Okay,
I'm not sure what what my natural next step will be,
but right now it's really focused on like, let's skill
up some leaders and give them confidence in conflict and
and how to help if it's my squad that has
two people in conflict, how do I facilitate a conversation

(59:29):
that's going to move them forward?

Speaker 4 (59:32):
So yeah, I don't know see what the universe has
for me.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
Well, you were an absolute delight. As always.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
I used to say to anybody who would listen that
if you don't like Cather Smith you're the fucking problem.
Because I said that's like lots of times I said, yeah,
I said all the time. It's one of my catchphrases.
I'm like, yeah, if you don't like Heather, you're the problem.
I actually said a way harsher in that, which I'm
not going to say on a recording, but uh yeah.
So just to reiterate, this is just the musings and
opinions of Scott dan There has nothing to do with

(01:00:00):
where we've worked in the past, work now or will
in the future. And thank you so much for your time,
and Danny will close it up.

Speaker 6 (01:00:07):
Yeah, just again, thanks for being here.

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
I love your Hilberg and Birke earrings very nice. Yeah, girl, girl,
I buy my wife those two.

Speaker 6 (01:00:17):
Actually.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
Anyways, that's a total transgression from what I was taking.
Was that transgression. That's not a transgression, that's a wrong
word whatever, but we give as fuck. Anyways, we are
on recording this on Treaty six land and I'm actually
sitting in Scottie's living room and I'm thinking, as I
watched the magpies outside, so Treaty six is the home

(01:00:40):
of the cree, the dan a that may tee many
Inuit people walk the lands here and and in the
Indigenous people from all across the Treaty six lands. And
the magpie is significant because the magpie comes to you
when you're supposed to speak your.

Speaker 6 (01:00:57):
Truth and be brilliant.

Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
And that's why I have them time to my arm,
because magpies came to me during a time where I
needed to be very speaking about something very tough to
speak about. And I've just been watching them out there
all the time and thinking about magpies are here because you,
I think, Heather, always speak the truth and you are brilliant.
So thank you for being here.

Speaker 6 (01:01:16):
Love,