55 - Sins of the Church

Jessee Baldwin exposes the sins hidden within religious institutions, recounting her sexual abuse as a 12-year-old at North Valley Christian School. For years, Jessee was ignored as those in power, including the pastor, protected her abuser and silenced the truth. Rather than reporting the crimes, they enabled the abuse by providing recommendations for the teacher’s employment at other schools and further supporting their role as a missionary, where the sexual exploitation of children continued globally for decades. 

Mandated reporters failed Jessee and countless others, highlighting a systemic issue. Now a survivor and advocate, Jessee examines the intersection of faith, abuse, and manipulation, sharing her personal journey, the psychological toll of betrayal, and the pursuit of justice through civil court. This discussion highlights the critical role of forensic psychologists in civil lawsuits, from assessing psychological damages to providing expert testimony that supports survivors in demanding accountability and systemic change.



Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Childhood Sexual Abuse Cases
03:17 Courage to Come Forward
09:05 The Healing Journey
15:14 Grooming and Authority Figures
20:28 Teaching Children About Boundaries
26:13 The Importance of Open Communication
32:10 Long-Term Effects of Abuse
37:18 The Power of Sharing Stories
37:48 The Healing Journey Begins
41:06 Reflections on Childhood and Self-Discovery
46:18 The Role of Adults in Protecting Children
52:41 Confronting Institutional Failures
57:31 A Call for Accountability and Change
01:01:10 Resources for Healing and Support
01:07:51 Empowering the Next Generation
01:12:09 Facing Pain for Healing


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Killer Psychologist. I'm Dana Anderson, a forensic psychologist
and your host of the show. Killer Psychologist is for
true crime fanatics and anyone intrigued with the dark side
of psychology. Welcome to Killer Psychologists. Today, we have a
special guest, Jesse Baldwin, and today we're going to discuss

(00:27):
one of the most emotionally charged areas of civil law,
childhood sexual abuse cases. And recently I found out that
Jesse Baldwin was a victim of childhood sexual abuse. And
I found out by watching you on the news back

(00:48):
in the day at North Valley Christian School, and I
went there for twelve years. I think you were there
about the same length of time that I was, and
I had no idea what happened, and so I was
so taken back by what I heard. I just immediately

(01:10):
reached out to you and just wanted to express my
support to you as a friend and somebody that knew you,
and see how I could support you, because I just
was so proud of you for telling your story, and
I only wish I would have known sooner. You know,
as a forensic psychologist, I help people in civil lawsuit

(01:32):
cases now and I understand how difficult it is, and
people share their stories to me. And I've interviewed probably
over forty victims in civil lawsuitcases going through the details
of the abuse, some of them on their deathbed or

(01:55):
you know, crying, different stages of life, but like find
me sharing their experience. And it's been really challenging for
me to hear so many stories over time, these situations
of abuse that have occurred in the remote past, but

(02:16):
people weren't able to tell what was happening at the time.
And so with each person that I interview, I'd always
try to say, what can I learn from you, Like,
how can we do better? What could get people to
open up and report these things to me? And it
is something that is so prevalent, so prevalent. I don't

(02:37):
know how to express that enough. But even I was
just at the gym the other day and I was
approached by two separate people who told me they had
been raped. They knew what I did for work, and
they were hoping I could encourage One of them was
like struggling with how to report it. And so this

(02:58):
conversation we have today, I hope, hope that people really
listen to your experience, and I know you reported it
much later because it's so confusing when you're a child.
But I hope that people understand the importance of reporting
and understanding and a civil lawsuit that's a different type
of justice, so it doesn't always play out in criminal court.

(03:21):
We know recently in California the statue of limitations like
opened up, and that may have affected why you were
actually able to report at this time. And I'm just
briefly gonna share what that statue was, and then I
would love for you to share what gave you the
courage to come forward and share your story or maybe

(03:44):
you were like that window of opportunity is coming in
right now. I got to like get on that. But
in California, the statue of limitations for childhood sexual assault
had gone under significant changes, and historically I think you
had until age twenty six or within three years of
discovering the damages to file a lawsuit. And then there

(04:07):
was an Assembly bill to eighteen, known as the California
Child Victims Act, and that was effective in January of
twenty twenty, and that extended the filing deadline to age
forty or within five years of discovering the damages. So Jesse,

(04:28):
I would love to have you share with us what
gave you the courage to come forward at this time.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
I don't know that courage really had anything to do
with it. It's more like when you have a realization
so much later in life that what you thought was
one thing was actually another. It's such an explosive event
in your mind that I felt like it was something
that just had to be told. You've talked to a

(04:59):
lot of pe in my situation, but it probably hits
different us having this conversation when I've known you since
I was a kid, like this hits really close to home.
You didn't know. And when I came forward with my story,
message after message after message of adults that were in
my life at that time saying I'm so sorry I
didn't know. I'm so sorry I didn't know. And so

(05:21):
as I came forward, there was almost like this collective
shockwave that affected hundreds of people who knew me personally
at that church, at that school. That was something I
didn't expect or foresee happening, but it was very healing,
and a part of the process of my healing being

(05:42):
validated with not one person said I don't believe you.
Everyone knew it happens, but they just didn't quite understand.
And so me coming forward really provided a lot of
clarity for so many people who back then heard only
whispers and rumors and didn't really quite know what had happened.
And then they're like, Okay, this all makes sense. Wasn't

(06:03):
an act of courage to do the civil suit? I'm
going to say yes, because I tried to do it
several times before I actually did, and I pulled back
because I was scared. But the biggest act of courage
I had was actually reporting it to police and doing
a police report. That was the scariest thing because I
wasn't quite at a point where i'd fully even realized

(06:24):
what had happened, and I was reporting based off of
the recommendation of my therapist at the time, who said,
you're approaching your fortieth birthday, you need to report this.
I was not ready. That was the biggest act of
courage looking back, that I had, that trust that I
had in her looking forward at what would be best
for me, and she said, you don't realize what happened now,

(06:48):
you're still under the effects of the grooming. But I
promise you as we work together, we uncover this, you
start to heal. You need to do this for your
future self, and so I did report was really scary.
I didn't appreciate that process either. But they do give
you a victim advocate, which is great. I believe her

(07:09):
name was Deborah Heidi in Chassa County. You're not in
that process alone, which is really nice, and so I
had her by my side for everything we did, pretext,
phone calls, all sorts of things that we can talk
about and what led up to doing the civil suit.
I had already done all the courageous things in my
mind before the civil suit. The civil suit was scary.

(07:29):
They get really personal and you have to relive things
you don't want to think about anymore, and it does
take courage. But I was so much further along in
my healing process when I took the steps for the
Sibil suit than when I had first reported.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
This was quite a journey, so going through the steps
of being in therapy for quite a while to even
get to the next step of making the report. And
I love that you share that because there's a lot
of things that have to happen before someone can feel

(08:06):
comfortable enough to make that call. And as a psychologist,
like I have helped pick up the phone and call
or put on speaker or I'll start the conversation and
like assist, And I feel like that is really important
to like help someone be emotionally present with them and

(08:29):
then like debrief with them afterwards during and like support
them so that they have hopefully a positive experience through it,
to like have a sensor relief. But I typically encourage
people to have someone a support person with them, to
not do it alone, because you get lost or confused,

(08:51):
or you give up or you hang up. And I'm
really glad you had such a supportive therapist that even
all this time later is encouraging you to make that call.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, she was great, And I was with that particular
therapist I think about four years. And therapy has been
a very important process and part of my healing. But
reporting to the police, that was an important layer of
my healing. Going through with a civil lawsuit, that was
an important part of my healing. Telling my story to

(09:25):
the news or anyone else, that's all a part of
my healing because what comes with a lot of times
for men and women, what comes with sexual abuse is
a lot of shame, and I think that's hard to
understand unless you've actually been through it. But I've had
people tell me they hear stories of sexual abuse and

(09:46):
they're embarrassed for the person talking about it. That right
there shows how their shame attached to it. And it
is something that's very hard to talk about. But the
more you talk about it and the more you bring
into the light and you almost normalize talking about it
instead of it being this hush little thing that no
one talks about that's in this family's past. The more

(10:09):
you talk about it and the more you make it
more common to talk about it, then that shame starts
to disappear.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah, I called you right away. I was just proud
of you, and I just love that you were just
so authentic and vulnerable and just put yourself out there.
I knew when I saw you on TV. I said,
a lot went into this to get to that point,
people who have no idea, and I wanted to immediately

(10:41):
support you because not all people are supportive, and we
know that because that's why it took this long to
get here. Because even in the environment we were in,
which is very small, tight knit religious community, so there's

(11:05):
no judgment. You're facing judgment, fear of community, backlash, rejection,
You're going to be ostracized from your community. People might
blame you or accuse you of lying, so then you're
met with all these other emotions, like of just rejection.

(11:27):
And I just looked back because we went to school together,
and I actually remember thinking.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
She gets a lot of attention.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
You guys are like hanging out so and I didn't
really get it. I was quite young too, and I
just observed it and I knew it was not normal,
and no one gave me any attention. No one was
She never talked to me, So I thought, wow, Jesse's
really special. I know she's like special. I know she's

(11:59):
really intell, like she's like funny, she has all these things.
And I'm like, but the adults around us, they would
know right if the something was happening, like somebody would
be there to protect her.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
So that's what I thought too.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah, I remember watching you and the relationship with this teacher,
which I barely knew her. I just knew that. I
observed you guys spent a lot of time together, and
I questioned it, and I thought nobody hangs out with me,
no one gives me an attention, Like, I didn't know

(12:36):
what to think of it. It seemed off and it
went on for quite a while. Yes, I did expect
that the adults they were, they were smarter or you know,
they've been around longer. If there's something was happening, they
would say something or do something. And then I just
figured that I knew you were special. I thought you

(12:57):
were really funny and really highly intelligent. Sought you're really cool.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
We always like joked around.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
Or you're doing something funny or rebellious or.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
Like always rebellious Stana.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
That's like the only way we got attention.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
Like that's pretty much how you and I connected. We
were doing something we were not supposed to be doing, but.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
We're doing something really immature.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
Oh absolutely.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
And I listened to your Preacher Boys podcast, which everyone
should listen to. It's on YouTube, and it's it's about
two hours and seventeen minutes, but raw, vulnerable, emotional take
on someone sharing their story. Like if you don't give
that a thumbs up and give her comment, that's hard
to do. So I applaud that.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Thank you. I wanted to point out what you talked
about though, as your perspective as a kid, because that
this grooming process. It affected not just me, because you
saw that as a child and saw how much attention
she was giving to me, thinking oh, she must be special.
I was thinking the same thing, I must be special.
And then all the adults around us not intervening or

(13:59):
raising any red flags about it. That's part of the
grooming process for everyone else who's watching. If no one
in authority or no one who is supposed to protect
the children do anything, then it must be okay. Because
most people, I think their default is not to stick
their nose into something and raise an alarm about something
that isn't actually anything. You don't want to be that person.

(14:20):
You don't want to be like, excuse me. There's spending
a lot of time together. It seems a little bit
off most adults. I don't think. I mean I would
because I'm like that, But I think most adults don't
want to rock the boat, and they just go with
status quo, especially when you're talking about a church environment
or school environment where there is a bit of a

(14:41):
hierarchy and authoritative power, and you don't question a person
who has more authority than you, by and large, it's
just something that you don't do in that Christian culture.
So it really just went on way too long with
a lot of signs. And I really appreciate that I
get to talk to you tonight. I get to hear

(15:02):
your perspective because you were there.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
I was there, and you know, being in such a small,
tight knit religious environment, I'm not under the impression that
the system was set up to know how to respond
to situations like that. And I'm saying this as a
psychologist you know who have gone to schools or gone

(15:28):
to reporting events and things. So you have to have
certain systems in place to report abuse, emotional abuse, neglect,
and physical abuse, sexual abuse. So you have to have
a place where people feel comfortable sharing and disclosing this information,

(15:49):
and that can be very challenging in these i'm gonna
say sort of punitive environments where if you disclose your
participating something that they disagree with, it's a complicated situation.
So this is why they have school psychologists now and

(16:12):
certain staff that are on site at schools and kids
are referred to go talk to them or they're watching
out for these things, so they're interacting and sometimes these
really small private schools. There was no therapist, there wasn't
a psychologists or what are the laws on reporting? And

(16:33):
no one taught me. No one told me because there
was lots of things going on, but I was looking
for the adults to give me information about what to do,
and I didn't have a class in that. Obviously, I'm
a grown up now and I've literally took classes on
how to report these things. And I think it's important

(16:58):
what kind of starts in the home as parents, where
you create an environment where it's a trusting relationship where
your child can feel safe sharing their thoughts and feelings,
even about small things. So when something more serious comes up,
they're more likely to disclose it earlier on, before it

(17:19):
even gets to be a problem. And then your parents
give you a direction and guidance that like teaching and
enforcing boundaries, right, so there's usually an early intervention is
what you want within your family. And as we know,
people that are vulnerable for abuse, there's usually sort of
at least one absent parent who's maybe emotionally disconnected or

(17:43):
even not even present, and so people that are looking
to groom or manipulate a child, you know, it's like
they look for that opportunity to gain emotional closeness with you.
But what better way is to let you know you're
special and start spending that time together.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Every kid wants to hear that they're special. And if
they're not getting that attention at home, they're not getting
that love, that nurturing, They're going to find it elsewhere.
And they're prime targets.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
They will find it elsewhere. So just remember that if
parents are listening, if you're not giving your love and attention,
if your kids aren't getting it from home, they will
get it. They will get it. They will definitely get it,
and there's always someone out there willing to give it
to them. You just want to be aware of who
that's going to be. There's plenty of people lined up

(18:37):
to like move in right to be that person.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
They're called predators, yeah, to target their prey, and a
lot of people ask what can we do to protect
our children? The prime thing you can do is please
have a good relationship with your children. Create a safe
place where they feel love and accepted and they can
come to you with anything. Because those kids, they don't
get duped like I did one.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Hundred percent, and I wrote a couple things down, So
building that emotional closeness. So, like I was just saying,
creating an open, trusting relationship with your child where they
can feel safe sharing those thoughts and feelings. Let that
sink in. You don't want to be so punitive your
child starts to tell you something and you're you're going

(19:22):
to punish them or spank them, or judge them or
ostracize them, or I don't have time to hear this,
Like you have to be available to hear these things.
Keep that door open all the time. And then teach
and enforce those boundaries. So help your child understand their
right to personal space and teach them to say no

(19:48):
to any touch that feels wrong, even from someone they know,
and emphasize that secrets about their body are never okay.
And then the last thing is is educate without fear.
So you want to teach your kid thing, not out
of fear. Just talk to your children in an age
appropriate way about what is safe and unsafe behavior, what

(20:13):
that looks like. Just use simple examples and let them
know it's always okay to tell you if they feel uncomfortable,
even if the person involved is a family member or
an authority figure. So one of the things that I
see in my experience is that these situations involve authority figures.

(20:37):
And that's a broad term, but for children almost everyone
in an adult would be more of an authority figure. So
you never want to teach being overly submissive, like you
should question authority. I know my parents, I always question
their authority. I mean, my sisters did and I still
question authority, and it's a good thing. And I teach

(20:57):
my kids to question it and they do question me too,
but it's a good thing. You should question authority. You
shouldn't have just blind faith and whatever anyone tells you.
And you don't want to teach your kids if any
person in authority just tells you to do something, you
do it and don't question it. So as a parent,
if your child asked you a question, let them ask questions,

(21:18):
also have a good answer and have a good response.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
Wow, you're sending your kids up for success that way.
And no one ever talked to me about good touch,
bound touch. And when this teacher groomed me so masterfully,
I mean it lasted till I was like forty, So
she did a really good job. That wasn't even my
first encounter with sexual abuse. So sexual abuse my grandpa

(21:42):
when I was younger, and so you would think at
that point my parents would have gone over this with me.
But still, so when I had my own children, I
didn't scare them. I got a book off at Amazon
that had lots of good reviews and it was age appropriate,
and I talked to them about all of these things,
and it was kind of comical. One day, I got

(22:03):
a call from the preschool teacher that my son went
to and he said, I need to let you know
that Nicholas needed help in the bathroom today, and so
I helped him, and he let me know he was
telling his mommy that I helped him in the bathroom.
I was super proud of my son because I trained
him to do that, but this teacher was almost like,

(22:23):
oh my gosh, and like, you know, of course, nothing
to Ferris was happening there. But I had talked to
my son, and then when he came and talked to me,
we were able to talk through the situation. Open communication.
So many families, for some reason don't talk about this,
and I'm not sure why, but my parents didn't, and
I had no clue. I had no idea that I

(22:46):
was being used for someone else's sexual gratification. I had
no clue. I thought it was a special relationship. I
thought it was something that no one else could understand.
And I think a lot of times bring this back
to the religious family thing with what you said is
teach your kids to question authority. That does not happen
in Christian circles by and large. You submit, you know,

(23:10):
I don't need to go too much into it, but
I think that Christian kids are even more susceptible to
this happening. Because you are told to do as you
are told. You're setting your kid up to be abused
and used because they're doing us they're told. There's a
fear there.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
Absolutely. I can't stress it enough. It's never too early
to start teaching your kids. So when my kids were
you know, they're toddlers, right before they go to preschool,
boundaries touch all of that. We communicating what's appropriate. Like
I'm demonstrating that as a mother. I have two boys,

(23:47):
and I am a forensic psychologist, So you better believe
that I had all these conversations with my children, and
I'll share this. I know my son, my oldest son,
he's twenty four. He listens to the podcast. But I'll
tell you so because he was about four years old
and in my paranoid mother like, yes, I was always
just like anytime you don't feel safe, anyone looks at you, strange,

(24:08):
anything you don't like, you always tell me, like tell
me like I always want to know everything right every
night bedtime stories like there's always that time for communicate anything,
like I want to know everything. And he told me
one day, like the neighbor was watching him after school
while I was doing homework, and I just was always
asking how it was going. He said he didn't want
to go over there again. I said why, and he

(24:31):
said he didn't like the way the dad talked to
the mom and that was it. That was it. And
I just and I said, what do you want me
to do about it? And he said, I don't want
to go over there again? And I said okay. And
he was four, he was in preschool, and so I
never brought him back over there, and I just thought
there was something there that he didn't like and just

(24:53):
that was his boundary and he didn't want to go back.
And I decided, you know, he wasn't going to go
back over there. So it was years and years and
years later that my neighbor, my friend, I won't say
her name, but she was telling me like her husband
was giving her drugs and raping her and she had
found out. So there was domestic violence and he was

(25:17):
talking to her in a certain way, and there was
a bigger issue that played out later. And so just
a child consents things that are just just something minor
that they're not comfortable with. So even if it's just
something small like that, you want your child to tell
you and then you can just take a corrective measure
like we never have to go there again, or there's
never going to be a problem, or I'm just God

(25:38):
to know that.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Well, your son learned in that moment, Mommy listens to
me well, and I.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Did, And I thought, just be available to talk to
your kids open ended questions. Open ended question is any
questions that you don't answer with a yes or no.
So if you're talking to your kids, just be available
to listen to them and without judgment and talk to
them about all these things. You want to be the

(26:03):
one that tells them about touch and these inappropriate behaviors
before someone else does it. So I'm telling them no
one should ever touch you or you should never be
in these like I'm explaining it even if all different scenarios.
I don't know if I'm the only mom that has
done this, but I've literally role played with my kids

(26:26):
what happens if this happened, or what if they said this,
or what if you were all alone and you didn't
have your phone, and.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Like what like hypothetical scenarios, and you should do that
because it makes it real to the child. I went
to a Little League event a few years ago out
of park and I told my son and my daughter
just say, you know, if someone comes up to you
and says, hey, I've got some puppies, you want to
come see them? There are no puppies. You are to run,

(26:51):
You are to get my attention another adults, And like,
I role played with them. I kid you not. We
walk into this event and right to the right there's
a booth of puppies and I said, okay, well these
puppies are okay, these puppies look real. That was pretty hilarious.
But there's nothing wrong with role playing and putting it.
Practice makes permanent and so it's kind of like my

(27:12):
kids are in driver's ed right now. My twins and
they learned today about pumping the brake if the brakes fail.
And about a year ago, I was driving a super
Beater mini van and my brakes failed. The ABS light
had been on for five years. They failed. In that moment,
I was trained to pump the brakes. I didn't have
to stop to think about it. I did it. Which
is why having those conversations, you're training your child. You're

(27:33):
training them to be safe. And even though the conversations
might be uncomfortable, you can utilize a book to help
you have those conversations, which is what I did. It
was very uncomfortable for me to have these conversations with
my children. I didn't like it. I didn't want to
do it. It was triggering for all sorts of reasons. But
I did it because I knew I had to keep
them safe and I knew that conversation never happened with me.

(27:54):
And if it had, I come a strong bull in
a china shop, intelligent kind of woman, right, No one
would think that I would be so incredibly duped. And
I talk a little bit more about that in my
previous interview with Preacher Boys. But if someone had just
said something, anything to give me a fighting chance. Instead,

(28:15):
I'm left with the long term effects of five plus
years of abuse from this teacher.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
Well, and I want to point out that you were
vulnerable in so many ways, but because you had this
prior experience as a child, you were really conditioned that
needed a full intervention to help you understand like a
healthy relationship and therapy in discussion around that I did.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
I remember talking to a social worker. I remember seeing
a therapist for a couple of years. Her name was Christine,
and she had a farm and she took them and
see her dogs. Not one time it was like clay therapy.
Not one time do we actually talk about the issue.
It was never brought up in anytime. I felt like
she was steering that way. I felt like she was
trying to trick me into admitting something that had happened,

(29:08):
and so I would just deflect or shut down. And
never actually one time I ever talked about that early
first experience. And I think after two years of my
parents paying for therapy and it just wasn't working because
I was just completely shut down about it. It just
was done. But I used to go home early from
school every Thursday at three o'clock because I had this

(29:29):
appointment and my mom would get me a slurpee, I
went for the slurpies. I was so shut down I
never actually talked about it. The first person I ever
talked to about that experience was with that teacher. She
was the first adult to make me feel safe, which
sounds really sick and really twisted, but that is the truth.
She was the first adult to make me feel love, safe, accepted, special.

(29:53):
She was the first adult I ever told about what
he did in any amount of detail. And she held
me while I I mean, that bond that she forced
with me was so strong, so strong, and that process
of healing and uncovering that has been grueling.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
I appreciate what you're saying. I think it's a reminder
for people, like as a parent or you know, sending
our kids to therapy, But is this really being talked
about into to what extent? And like, how are we
going to prevent this from happening again? So this was
your grandpa, your family member, a trusted family member, position

(30:39):
of authority, you know, and someone that actually showed you love.
Listening to your podcast you did on Preacher Boys, just
going into the detail like that was the person that
probably showed you the first love, and so like that
makes a really confusing mixed message. It's confusing as they're
making you feel good and special and giving you attention,

(31:02):
but also doing these other things, so that crosses over
into other relationships. It's very confusing, and that's sad that
the only person that's showing you love is someone that's
trying to manipulate you, like sexually. Right.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, it sets you up for a world of hurt
later on, I mean all through life. It really is
confusing and things that I've had to work through myself,
like early on just thinking sex equals love and there's
no other way to accept or feel love other than
through sex, which I mean, I know anyone else who's

(31:43):
experience what I've experienced understands that, or anything even close
to it understands that. And learning that there are other
ways to feel, receive, give love outside of sex is
a whole nother learning process and part of the healing
process as well. But yeah, it really affects long term
relationships for life. Like I was married for fifteen years

(32:06):
and I went into that marriage very broken and didn't
know it. He was also very broken and didn't know it. Thankfully,
we made four beautiful children together, but the two of
us together was not good. So I've been able to
get a lot of healing outside of that marriage now,
and hopefully he has too. I have no idea, but
I know that it affects your long term relationships, and

(32:27):
just understanding that you were groomed also really messes you
up with not being able to trust anyone ever again.
It's hard because you don't want to feel that pain.
You don't ever want to be duped, so you like
put yourself in a box of your own, making a
protective box. That's not ever going to happen to me again.

(32:48):
No one's ever going to take advantage of me or
dupe me like that again, and you're not open to
any future relationships like These are things that I'm working
on right now because it was really hard coming to
an acceptance that that relationship when I was twelve and
she was forty two was not consensual and could not

(33:09):
be consensual and was not okay. And uncovering that and
realizing that and allowing yourself to accept that is its
own form of hell. And most people, I think can't
even begin to peel that back until they're in their forties,
which is why it's so good the statute of the
limitation laws are changing. You can't process it, you can't

(33:31):
accept it. It's survival. It's survival to live in what
you thought it was, because unmasking that is really scary
and hard, and some people can't survive it, and so
they don't unmask it, and they take these things to
their grave. And I understand that.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
That is true. I have interviewed a lot of men,
and they're very prone to taking it to their grave,
right to the very end. They only disclosed it because
the statute of limitations opened up, and a lot of
these men were much much older. But for some it

(34:11):
was the first time sharing what happened. And I will
tell you this and listen. These men that told me
the things that happened to them at these church camps,
after school programs, all of this, their wife, their kids,
their family do not know. They were not telling their

(34:31):
wife in the other room. That's a fact. So I'm
telling you that's it happens, and it happens a lot
more often than you think, just across sexes. But it
is true. People don't tell and here is my experience
that the people that I've worked with who get the

(34:54):
courage to share what happened with even just one person.
And the crazy part is so many men that I've
interviewed that never told their wife through the whole marriage,
the whole marriage like it really ruined the relationship. It
never was healthy. The healthiest outcomes for people and my experience,

(35:15):
were people that were finally able to just speak their
truth and say it. And the most successful ones were
ones that were able to just verbialize it even publicly
shamelessly tell their family they had such a healthier life emotionally,
were just more balanced and more well equipped keeping it

(35:38):
a secret. I haven't met anyone while that benefited them.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
It gives them that sense of control though, at least
in my experience, when you keep it to yourself and
you keep it in a box, yes you're not allowing
yourself to heal, but it's still it's your secret, and
it's yours to control the moment that you expose that out.
Like these men, I can only imagine their wives would
look at them differently. In their minds that might not

(36:05):
even be what actually happens, but you know, your perception
is your reality. Men, they're strong, they're the protectors. They
don't want to ever be seen as weak or taken
advantage of, especially if the perpetrator was another man or
even a woman. It really doesn't matter. It's shameful and
you don't want the person who you want to be
viewed as I'm strong, I'm the leader, I'm the man.

(36:28):
You don't want them to know you were ever weak
and vulnerable like that, so you take it to your grave.
But it affects your relationships, it affects everything, and so
relinquishing that control, it relinquishes the shame, and everything starts
to get better. But the process of even believing that
that's going to happen, it really takes a strong support

(36:48):
person like a therapist or a really close friend or
someone that you can confide. And in my opinion, it's
a something that I did alone. I don't know that
it can be done alone. I mean, I had so
many people involved in my healing process. I didn't do
anything on my own, and it was really scary just
with all the support that I had. So I truly

(37:11):
believe that there are so many stories that go untold,
countless thousands, but the more that people talk about things
like what I'm doing. I said this on the Preacher
Boys podcast. I listened to so many other interviews of
other survivors before I ever got brave enough to even
think about looking at it myself. But it helped. Every
time someone would talk about it, I'd watched the interview

(37:32):
and I'd almost be like this, Oh my gosh, I
can't believe she said that. Oh my gosh, I can't
believe he said that. Wow. Like wow, And I'm like,
they're not ashamed, they're not hanging their head in shame.
They're not coming on. And some did remember the early
like twenty twenty, and the face would be blacked out

(37:53):
while someone's talking about their abuse. Yeah, hopefully we're way
away from that, unless you know there's some sort of
like secret witness thing happening. But there's just so much
shame involved, you like, I don't want anyone to know
that this is me and this happened to me. This
is a terrible thing to have happen. But part of
the healing process. If someone will allow themselves to start

(38:16):
that process with someone who can support them, you'll come
to find out that thing that happened to you didn't
actually happen to you. This sounds really weird. It happens
for you, but I believe that in life anyway, things
happen for you. What you do with it and how
you take your next steps forward that says everything about you.
And you get to choose that I didn't. You get

(38:36):
to choose the abuse that happen to me, But I
do get to choose what I do with him once
I realized it. So I could hide dig myself in
a hole and continue to have not great relationships, constant
triggers over eating all the stuff that happens with it,
or I can like take it on, Okay, this happened.
What can I do moving forward? And how can I

(38:57):
help other people with my story? So many people helped
me by sharing their stories, and it's going to be
another voice in that see that hopefully just helps the
next person.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
Absolutely, I want to talk about twelve year old Jesse.
What would she say about you now? Or she'd be
proud of you?

Speaker 2 (39:21):
I think she would think us pretty badass.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
I totally know that.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah, yeah, I have this picture of me at twelve
and the teacher Bonna Johnson holding on to me, and
you can just see the possession of the ownership there
in that photo, and I just had no clue. And
I think she would be really proud that I stood
up for me, like once I realized it and I

(39:46):
and I am not a person who backs down from
a fight anyway, but this was something that so completely
turned my life upside down in so many really difficult ways.
And I think she'd be proud, for sure.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
I'm proud of you.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
What would you want to tell that twelve year old Jesse.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
It's funny you say that. I've had so many people
write me and say if I had known what was happening,
I would have and then they describe what they want
to do to her. It is not helpful, but you
know it's part of their processing. If I could just
reach in then go back.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
There, I.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Don't even know what I would say, Like if I
could say something, if I had a time machine and
I could go back and talk to myself. I'm telling you,
I was so groomed. I wouldn't believe a thing i'd say,
and that's really hard. But what I would say to
her is you're special. You're going to get through this,
and I promise you you have an amazing life ahead
of you. I don't know that I would have listened to, Hey,

(40:53):
she's groomed you, she's abusing you, this is not what
it seems. I don't know that I would have heard
a word of that. I really don't because I was
so in deep. But you know, I can look back
on myself at twelve, and you do this in therapy
sessions and have conversations and have passion. You know, I've
done that with four year old Jesse, and that kind

(41:15):
of stuff's really helpful in a supportive therapeutic environment.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
And looking back and even now, what do you believe
needs to change within religious or educational institutions to better protect.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
Oh I love that you asked that question. One thing
that I am currently doing as an occupation is I'm
a school bus driver and I have to tell you
have to go through this vector training. The church I'm
attending right now has it as well. And going through
this vector training as an adult. Knowing what I went

(41:55):
through is so hard because I'm like, oh my gosh,
where were the adults in my life? This is common
sense off It is so hard to see, but it's
also so good. You cannot judge what you're seeing. There's
this common saying, I see it. It's posted in public school.
See something, say something. Don't assign your own filter or

(42:16):
your own judgment to it. If something is off, you
have to say something, then leave it in the hands
of the people who are supposed to do something about it. Now,
for me, there was an employee who saw us kissing
on school grounds. He saw something, he said something. It
was ignored, you know, hence soil the lawsuit right continued abuse.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
So wait, let's talk about that, because so this relationship's
going on. Your teachers forty two years old, you're twelve.
This went on and I know you go into more
details on the other podcast, so I would just encourage
people to listen to the full episode there. But so

(42:57):
this is going on for years, and there was different
instances where people observed or saw things. But there's one
particular moment that you can walk us through when you
and this teacher are outside the school and the janitor
heard something and saw something. And I think that was

(43:18):
the ultimate moment that led to a report being made
that probably helped substantiate your claim when you went to
make a report. This was in the documents that lived
and it helped your case be successful because there were
witnesses in fact in a report. So tell us about

(43:41):
the janitor and what happened.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Well, you know him, Greg Landers. So the principal's grown
sun on a Saturday. You know that weird two story
building that had that green velvet ramp. Do you remember
that it stares on one side green velvet ramp on
the other kindergarten and preschool classes were usually below it.
But that's where we were at. It's on the side

(44:06):
of the building has a covered ease. The alley is
right there. Yeah, that's where we were. And we were
messing around, and she always had me somewhere on weekends.
I was always with her at her house at the
school doing where always somewhere. And I kissed her and
I knew the rules, the rules that she had that

(44:27):
we were not allowed to do anything in public, and
I playfully smacked her butt, kissed her, pushed her against
the wall. She reversed, pushed me against the wall, started
kissing me, and then we heard this loud noise. Well,
come to find out, I didn't know at the time.
When we heard that loud noise, we scattered. She went
one way I went another. But it was Greg Landers,

(44:49):
a janitor, who saw us, and he put in his
report to the police that he felt like it was
going to escalate even further, and he did the only
thing he could think to do was like to bing
a trash candleate. I think it was really loud against
something metal to break it up.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
When did he make the report?

Speaker 2 (45:06):
From what I understand, immediately he reported to his father.
No one reported to the police. Nobody. There was no
police report ever made. I never got any help, no
social worker involved. Now you might remember this, which is interesting.
Member of the church, sheriff Jim Pope. Jim Pope. Now, hell,

(45:29):
he was on the board. My parents talked to Jim Pope.
Jim Pope talked to Bonnie Johnson and her husband. So
much happened here that should not have happened. So many
adults involved in protecting the reputation of the school in
the church instead of helping me. So she was let go,
she was fire. No one was told why.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Oh, because I thought a police report had been made,
and that's why she's fired. So Greg made a police report.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
He never made a police report. He reported to his father.
No one ever made a police report. My dad claims
he made one to Sheriff Jim Pope, but there's no.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
Record who claims made a report.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
My dad was led to the leave that he made
a report. Was Sheriff Jim Pope.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Oh, so there was an understanding that it had been reported,
although from.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
All my parents' side only I never knew of any report.
I didn't even know it was Great Landers. I didn't
even know anyone had caught or seen anything. I just
knew she'd been fired. I didn't know why.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
How did you find out? Later?

Speaker 2 (46:34):
The teacher actually told me so much later. She told
me she said Greg Landers saw us, and I was like,
oh shoot, I'm so sorry. You know, then I blamed myself.
There was a self destructive thing because now this teacher
who I lived in the doored, I just really hurt.
I got her fired like a whole other self destrictive

(46:56):
spiral happened when she told me that or she was
continuing her grooming and making sure that I stayed silent,
and I continued to sneak around and see her for years,
and they could not keep us apart. So eventually the
church commissioned Bonna and her family as missionaries to Korea,
and she went on and she went on to other
Christian schools, and she went on to have other issues

(47:18):
with other Christian schools similar with me. I believe that
is all done now because I've spoken to those schools.
I ended up getting her fired from one of the
schools where something similar was happening at the time.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Okay, so wait a second. They cent her out as
a missionary into the world after that, yeah, and support
her financially.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
Yes, this is what churches do.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
So that part I did not know. It wasn't until
twenty seventeen when you filed the lawsuit that you come
to find out that over the last three decades, there
never was a police report, and in fact, no teacher
or adult ever intervened, reported or did anything.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
Well, every adult at that church and school, every adult failed,
multiple people who knew should have reported. However, I've talked
to a lot of people who have reached out to
me since I came forward, who have told me they
were kept in the dark, like they were told a
completely different version of events. They were not told what

(48:27):
Greg Randers saw. They were told that my parents were
just trying to cause trouble. So the head honcho of
pastor Royal Blue twisted everything. So he was trying to
protect his legacy, but so much abuse happened under his watch,
under his leadership that he let go. I'm not the only.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
Story, not the only story.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
At that location with this particular teacher. Yes, she did
go after another student. That mom reported it in your class. Nope,
my sister Jackie's class. The mom reported it, The school
did nothing. This was before she was fired, and they
pulled the student out and put them over at Liberty Christian.

(49:11):
And I found out about that much later, and that's
actually what started the healing process for me, was finding
out about that incident. And that was the pivotal moment
where I was like, wait, what.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
They you were not alone, that is particular teacher.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Anything other than what I thought it had been. Because
the teacher was with me at the time. Why would
she be acting that way with someone else? I didn't know.
So that's when my adult brain started to kick in
and I was like, wait, what just if you can
think of like this dark shade of doom coming across

(49:49):
your body all at once where you're like O MG what.

Speaker 1 (49:55):
And that's a much younger person.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
Also, yeah, it was horrifying to talk to that other woman.
I think I was like thirty seven, thirty eight, and
I didn't touch it for a couple of years after that.
Even after finding that out, Nope, there was just no
way I could even process it. But it stayed there.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
So you talked to this other victim. Were they involved
in this lawsuit as in sharing their information to support
your story?

Speaker 2 (50:31):
They were, not only because we settled, but had we
gone to trial, I believe that this other person would
have been one of the witnesses.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Okay, so you mentioned other abuse. Were there other authority
figures that you know of that were abusing children?

Speaker 2 (50:53):
Absolutely? So. Since I've come forward, I have received multiple
messages three just off the top of my head, naming
other people. I'm not going to name that. That's their
story to tell that they came to me and talk
to me about it, and I got on the phone
with each of them and just so they could feel heard.
The look back that statute window has closed for them.

(51:16):
This is really really old crimes, but you just don't
realize it.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
So I was there were these teachers or pastors or
just a combination, Like do I know them?

Speaker 2 (51:31):
Yes? Absolutely? Yeah, I bet you're Diana, and I'll tell you.
I'll tell you off air, Okay, Yeah, I was. Yeah,
I was a little surprise actually, and so this.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
Makes a bigger story. And I know that when I
called you after I saw your story on the news,
you had mentioned that, yeah, all the people were reaching out.
You actually had some really negative feedback too, some people
in the church, and that was very disturbed to hear about,
and very saddened and disheartened. And I guess that can

(52:09):
be expected to that level of denial, that people just
don't want to accept this truth.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
Not one person accused me of lying, which I really appreciate,
not one. It was more, you're hurting the name of
Christ by coming forward. This is not biblical. And one
of them has since called and apologized, which was super cool.
After the news story broke, after the lawsuit had settled
and everything, I actually had the opportunity to sit down

(52:38):
and have a conversation with the current pastor of that
church and his wife. Had a really good conversation with
him that was very healing. He was extremely compassionate. I
told him who in his church congregation had been harassing me,
and he took care of it good. So one of
them apologized, which was really nice. And you know, he

(53:01):
came into this situation in this church and he had
no idea what Pastor Bleuw, who was his grandfather, what
he had done under his leadership. He didn't know. And
then how I perceived how the church Crosspoint was handling
the lawsuit was pretty negative. And it was really good
to hear his perspective on his side of what the

(53:25):
lawyers were instructing him to do, which made him appear
very cold and callous. But I believe him when he
said he had nothing but compassion for me and wanting
to help the process along, and that he wasn't actually
trying to hide anything. It was a really good conversation.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
I'm so thankful you had that healing moment with him.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
He reached out. He didn't have to do that. His
lawyers advised him against it, and I'm thankful that he
reached out and we had that conversation. It was awesome.
It was what true Christianity should be, like, Hey, shouldn't
have happened. I'm really sorry this happened.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
And that's just a good reminder for people listening, like
those moments can be so healing, just a conversation, just
a phone call, you know.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
Pastor Steve right Pastor Steve Alexander.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
Shout out to Pastor Steve right now. He was my favorite.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
Oh, it's absolutely my favorite. Hands now.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
He always like he was my junior high church leader,
so like he was a good.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
Role model and so phenomenal guy.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
Thank God for good role models. Yeah, we need those.
He always was just a stand up guy and I
always appreciated him, and I am thankful for people like him.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
Here's something that I don't think he'll mind me sharing,
at least I hope he doesn't mind me sharing. There's
just very awesome. When I was first starting to uncover
what had happened, I was very early in my journey
of realizing I'd been groomed, and I wanted to reach
out to sow On at North Valley North Fallei who

(55:00):
was there at the time, who could help me process it.
And so Pastor Steve is the person I picked out
of everyone I knew at Northali, He's the one I
reached out to. So I reached out to him on
Facebook and he ignored me, and then I reached out
again and he's like, why do you want to get

(55:21):
on the phone and I told him why, and he
ignored me. This was years ago, I don't know how
eight years ago, and I tried to reach out. I
think three times I tried to reach out. Then the
civil lawsuit happens, it settles, it's in the news, and
then he reaches out to me. And it was one

(55:44):
of the most healing conversations I've ever had. He was crying, Karen,
his wife, was crying. I was crying. He was so
honest and transparent, and he said I didn't even know
what to say or to think. He's like, I should
not have not responded, and he felt so bad. He
apologized profusely. But what a stand up guy to call me,

(56:05):
to give me his support, to talk about his experience
at North Valley, his own trauma being underneath that leadership.
And it was just I hope that's okay to say,
Pastor Steve. But he was so transparent and honest and apologetic,
and I really appreciated that. I still think of him
the same way I always did, just a youth pastor

(56:28):
that was always there for the kids, not judgmental, cool, relatable,
and in those moments when I needed someone to talk
to and he wasn't there at the end of the world.
Someone else just stepped up. But I hope that he
felt honored that he was the one that I thought
I could talk to about it, and I appreciated that
we had that healing conversation after the fact where he

(56:49):
shed light on his side of it. Being in the
school board meetings and what they were told completely different story.
It's not like all the adults stuck their head in
the sand. It wasn't that cut and dry. It was
a lot of misleading happening and going on.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
Unfortunately, Wow, what message would you give to these leaders
of institutions about accountability and transparency? So it's like, now
you have this platform and you're in control of the narrative,
so you get to speak out about things that you

(57:27):
never could before. And now you have people listening, and
there are people that work at these schools and churches
or wherever. It's like, what message would you like to
convey for the future, Like what changes would you like
to see in these schools.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
In church environments, particularly in these churches that have their
own schools. Is that the experience of what happened here,
that was the environment I was in. We are seeing
sweeping change because so many people in my age group
are coming forward, so many lawsuits have happened. Change is happening,

(58:06):
and I would like to encourage people in those situations
to always believe the kids. Now, I'm well aware that
there's going to be false accusations. It happens. It does,
but let law enforcement sort that out. If you've got

(58:27):
nothing to hide, there has to be some evidence. It's
not always just she said, she said or she said
he said. You have to report, you cannot judge it.
And also you cannot as a church, protect the offender.
This is a sin. I hear that so much. Our

(58:50):
brother has fallen into a sin. He is making it right.
This is between God and this person. You did a crime.
You did a crime, and the Bible upholds the law,
the law where you are. You can't just murder someone

(59:13):
or rape some one and be like, I'm sorry, God, repent,
Oh I'm clean. You have to restore such a one.
That's not how this works. There's so much twisting of
the scripture in protecting these people purpse. I'm not gonna
say men, I'm not gonna say women, because it's both
and the churches are covering it up, silencing the victim

(59:36):
who never gets a chance of healing because they were
never validated or even maybe aware they were victims, which
is what happened with me, and then passing the purplelong
to do it somewhere else. That's what has to stop.
If you have an inklean of anything you report, you
can't judge it. You just report this happened to me.
As a school bus driver, I'm a mandated reporter. I

(59:58):
hear a student saying something I have already in eighteen
months of driving a school bus how to talk to CPS,
and it's something that maybe I personally think is probably
not true. But the child reported and I'm going to
send it on. I'm not going to judge it. And
so we need to see more of that, less protecting

(01:00:19):
of the purp, more support for the victim so the
victim can become a survivor. If the victim is never
validated or given help, they stay a victim. You turn
that phrase to survivor when you're able to heal and
go through it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
And I'd love to talk about I know you highlighted
some of the resources you receive through therapy, but through crime,
victim assistance, you can report something and you can get
free therapy sessions and so that's under the district Attorney's office,
so you can get it's up to forty sessions a
year being a direct victim of a crime, and then

(01:01:04):
your therapist can always recommend more sessions. And so it's
no cost, so you don't need insurance. And if you
just didn't want to report it to your insurance or
you just wanted it to be a private thing, there
are certain licensed therapists who take crime victim assistance and
specialize in helping people heal.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
And that's nationwide that program. And the only thing they required,
they did require one thing, to require a police report.
Whether or not the police do anything about it doesn't matter,
but they did want a police report in order to
call for that program, which I did use.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
And I encourage people to make the report. And if
you need help, I mean, you can book a session
with me online at psychologydoctor dot com. I do consults.
I can make the call, I can dial the number.
I actually type up the report, I fax it, submit it,
do it. If it's a CPS rep or if it's

(01:02:00):
going to the police, I'll do it for you and
so it's just emotionally so overwhelming for people to do
it alone. So I'd also like to mention Family Justice
Center dot org. You can go to the website and
look on the map from Canada to Kentucky, like across

(01:02:20):
the world. Wherever you are, you can look at the
agency closest to you and get resources. So there actually
are a lot of great resources out there for people
that I encourage people to access. And at the first
step is you can just get some of that therapy
at no cost and then take the first step. And
it sounded like through your journey there was like years

(01:02:43):
the unfolded layers unfolded until we got to the point
where you even mentally came to terms with taking action
civil action. I think it's really brave what you did.
I think you have a powerful voice, and you're a

(01:03:05):
role model for those that are still feeling so much
shame to speak out and it's still really hard, but
you're explaining the steps you did and you're on the
other side. You're in a different place now. There's so
much you've learned, and I just love how raw you've

(01:03:28):
been we're sharing your story and vulnerable. I'm proud of you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Thank you. It feels good to talk about it, and
it feels good to talk about it. The more you
get it into the light, the more it helps with healing.
I appreciate the opportunity to be able to come on
here and share just in a different way, different things
about it, encouraging anyone who wants to. They can reach

(01:03:56):
out to me too, they just want to chat. I'm
not a professional anything, Hygennis and a school bus driver
and it's you know, and a single mom before, but
you know, I know what it's like to sit in
that place where all you feel is darkness and there's
like no relief in sight. And when you can have
a trusted person that you can talk to who's literally

(01:04:19):
they act like a mirror. That was my experience with
a therapist, my experience with the people who I trusted
to talk to about it. They were like a mirror
and they showed me what actually was. They helped me
sort through that grooming, and that is very scary. Most

(01:04:39):
people who go through sexual abuse, there is a layer
of grooming and it doesn't just happen to the survivor.
It happens to the whole family. It's hard to peel
that back and to try and understand that and to
be able to move on and also prevent it from
happening with other people.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
I also wanted to mention for people listening that it's
really powerful if you are going to file a civil
lawsuit that you you document everything. So if you're getting therapy,
you're getting years of therapy. I get all those records.
Sometimes it's thousands of pages of records. I mean recently,
I was looking through fifteen years of psych records. So

(01:05:15):
we're looking for, you know, the validity of someone's claim
and their truthfulness. So I think it's difficult for some
people who dabble in other things like drugs or alcohol
or other relationships or things, and they tend to want
to be dishonest about certain aspects of their life. But
I always encourage people if you're going to do a

(01:05:35):
civil lawsuit, the truth will come out one way or
the other, so you have to be prepared for that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
There's nothing left unturned that is correct.

Speaker 1 (01:05:44):
So any STD, any affair, any firing from a job, anything,
you have to come to a place where you're being
deposed for hours and being integrated, and you're just telling
the truth about your life and by design, it's meant
to intimidate you and get you to drop out, which

(01:06:08):
many people do. And on the last civil case, I
testified for almost fourteen hours in a deposition defending my
evaluation on a person with their diagnosis, and that feels
like being interrogated. And I'm not even the victim in

(01:06:29):
that case, but you can feel how like that is
not something people look forward to to be on the stand.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
It's grueling and growing for me, the pressure.

Speaker 1 (01:06:40):
Yeah, my recommendation is therapy before, of course, not just
for yourself but for documentation, but also during the entire
civil lawsuit, because I have cases that go on for
years and they're coming undone like it's a re traumatizing
and actually falling apart, and their symptoms can come back

(01:07:03):
even worse and they can feel really overwhelmed, and I
recommend they continue to get treatment all during that time
because of the civil lawsuit. Like you need that emotional
support and you can turn it into a healing experience
and take control of the narrative while on the stand,

(01:07:24):
but you really need support through it. I think those
are tips that could help people get through it to
the end, because in the end there isn't any amount
of money that can save you or heal you, Like
it's something you have to do along the way.

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
Yeah, I think it's That's a really good point for me.
I didn't have to go to trial. It ended in
a settlement, and I remember telling I think it was
my sister. There's just no amount of anything that can
undo or fix it. And it's not about that. For me.
It was just about someone taking responsibility and I needed that.

(01:08:04):
I needed for my own healing. I needed to hear
it's not your fault and this shouldn't happen this way.
I needed that validation. It's just a really important part
of my healing process and journey and definitely not something
you should do without support, and I have lots of
support for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:08:22):
I feel like you could go back into schools, Jesse
and like teach kids like you and I could go
in and teach kids about like boundaries or safe touch.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
I'm mentoring on my school bus every single day. I
got these kids and I drive SPAD, so I've got
special needs kids and we talk about anything and everything,
and you know, great mentorship is happening on that bus
and I love that because I want to feel like
my pain means something. So I'm not sharing with them
about what I've gone through, but I can hear the

(01:08:53):
things that they're going through that are causing them to
feel embarrassed or shamed or bullied and you know all
those emotions. Just how to talk to an adult in
a healthy way about that, and how to know when
to ask for help and what needs help and what
those steps even are. And I love that I feel
like my own little advocate for these kids while I'm
driving this bus, and it's great. It's a healthy, safe

(01:09:15):
space for them. And I love that I could grow
into an adult who learned and healed and didn't pass
that trauma along. That I've got really well adjusted kids
in a great relationship of a relationship with them, and
I'm really proud of that. And I can see DoD's

(01:09:37):
hand through all of it, which is amazing, just the
people that were put into my life to help guide
and support just one little thing along the way. Because
it did take me years, years to uncover this. This
was a very slow process for me because I just
couldn't handle it, and I don't know some people might

(01:09:58):
go faster than me. It took me really a really
long time, and I'm still healing, I'm still learning to trust,
I'm still figuring stuff out. But I've got really supportive
people in my life who I can trust and I
can talk to candidly about those things, and I can
keep moving forward.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
Well, your support is going to continue to grow when
people hear your story and reach out to you, and
it does affect and change people's lives, because I know
because through this podcast, I've had a lot of people
reach out and things can be meaningful for them and

(01:10:36):
change their life. And we did an episode recently about
domestic violence and pathological partners, and so many people reach
out to me. It was a bit overwhelming that women
that were being strangled, abused or beaten and trying to leave,
and it's pretty powerful for them to share that and

(01:10:58):
just open up the window and share what's going on
behind closed doors and they're trying to seek solutions, and
it's confusing and scary, and so I always try to
educate people and provide resources where people can get help
and start taking the steps to a better life and

(01:11:18):
start the healing process. And so I really appreciate and
admire you for sharing your story and your experiences and
just opening up like this, and I know that it's
so powerful and going to impact so many people. So
thank you for just being so real and professional. And

(01:11:40):
I'm so glad we were able to reconnect since you know,
junior high traumatic days, I guess. And I'm just here.
I'm just rooting for you and supporting you and for
all those people that are living in silence and can't
speak up the way you do, like I know they
that it means so much to them.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
Yeah, if I can speak to the people just for
a second before we're done, who are living in that
silent space, I have a thought, and you, as a
forensic psychologist, you can tell me how valid this thought is,
because this is how it was more for me and
trying to come to acceptance in terms of what had
happened is I think we are hardwired to avoid pain,

(01:12:25):
and a lot of people in an abusive situation that
is their comfort zone. That's all they know. I mean,
that's why there is a Stockholm syndrome. Right. You have
to make the best of it so you can make
yourself comforta believe that you love this person or this
person loves you and has your best interests at heart.
We avoid pain. We're hardwired for that. So trying to
come to terms with things that have happened to me

(01:12:48):
felt like seeing an open fire and putting my hand
into it willingly and leaving it there, which no one's
going to do. You have a natural instinct. If you
put your hand on the stove out that hurts, you
pull back. There is no decision there, It just happens.
And I feel like people who can't come to terms
with it, they can't address it, they can't share it

(01:13:09):
with other people. It's because it's literally putting yourself into
a fire. The pain is unbearable, and you have to
choose to feel the pain. Where's the healing? And choosing
to feel the pain, right, That's how it felt like
for me, But little by little, with the support that
I had through therapists and friends, and I would talk

(01:13:29):
about it and I would feel the pain for a second,
and I pull back and feel safe again. I feel
the pain for a second, then pull back and feel
safe again. Every single time you do that, you get
a little bit further on that process and you come
to find out that pain and that realization that's your healing,
that's your comfort. You have to breed the wound. You

(01:13:50):
can't just put band aid on it and cover it up.
It doesn't work. It festers, and it will affect every
area of your life, relationships, the ads that you have.
It's there, it's not going anywhere, and so you have
to put yourself in the fire. You have to feel
the pain. And the good news is you don't have
to do that alone, and you can do that at

(01:14:11):
your own pace and you can take you know, multiple
years like I did, because you don't like pain. But
I just wanted to put that out there. Healing is hard,
and healing is painful, but it is so worth it.
It is so worth it to be able to talk
about it, to hear other people's stories, and I feel
like you're going to shrivel up and die every single time. Right,

(01:14:31):
there's freedom there. That's all I wanted to add.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
Well, thank you so much, Jessee, you for joining me,
and I'm sure people will have some follow up questions
or words of encouragement for you, and so this episode
will drop on YouTube, so we'll see you over there.
And of course you can if you have a civil lawsuitcase,
you can book a consult with me psychologydoctor dot com

(01:14:56):
or email me at CEO at psychologydoctor dot com and
thank you so much, Jessie