February 19, 2025 • 36 mins
What happens when therapy becomes the ultimate betrayal?
Roxana Eubanks, PsyD—better known as Rox the Doc— unpacks the chilling case of therapist Kristin Marchese, who seduced her patient, Mark Huckeby, during their sessions at a mental health clinic. Already battling bipolar disorder, PTSD, and suicidal ideation, Huckeby spiraled into emotional turmoil—leading to homicidal threats and forcing Marchese to seek a restraining order against him.
Therapy is supposed to be a place of healing, but when power is abused, the consequences are devastating. This episode exposes the ethical violations, psychological wreckage, and predators hiding behind professional titles. Other therapists have crossed the line as well. Complaints against Dr. Ali Sahebi alleged that he conducted group therapy in his home, served whiskey to patients, and engaged in a sexual relationship with a female patient. In July 2024, he was found guilty of unsatisfactory professional conduct and professional misconduct.
In another case, Dr. Daniel Lerom was forced to relinquish his license after being caught billing insurance while having sex with a patient during their sessions. Kristin Marchese was ultimately convicted of two felony counts of sexual exploitation, highlighting the urgent need for accountability in the mental health field.
Rox the Doc shares her own journey from working in corrections to private practice—where firm boundaries aren’t just ethical; they’re essential for survival.
If you need a forensic psychologist to represent you for damages in civil court due to this type of predatory behavior, book a consultation with Dana Anderson at www.psychologydr.com.
Need a therapist you can trust? For therapy services, visit Rox the Doc at www.roxthedoc.com.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Forensic Psychology and High-Performance Therapy
02:47 The Journey of Dr. Roxana Eubanks
05:50 Establishing Professional Boundaries in Therapy
09:02 The Importance of Ethical Practices in Psychology
11:50 Justifications for Unethical Behavior in Therapy
15:08 The Impact of Boundary Violations on Clients
18:10 Maintaining Professionalism in High-Stakes Environments
20:50 The Role of Accountability in Clinical Practice
23:55 The Dangers of Emotional Dependency in Therapy
27:07 The Need for Objective Data in Therapy
29:54 Case Study: The Consequences of Boundary Violations
33:02 Conclusion and Resources for Ethical Practice
Credits
Fruedian slip: Therapist jailed for sexual relationship with a patient (Fox6 Milwaukee)
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/killer-psychologist--6020549/support.
Roxana Eubanks, PsyD—better known as Rox the Doc— unpacks the chilling case of therapist Kristin Marchese, who seduced her patient, Mark Huckeby, during their sessions at a mental health clinic. Already battling bipolar disorder, PTSD, and suicidal ideation, Huckeby spiraled into emotional turmoil—leading to homicidal threats and forcing Marchese to seek a restraining order against him.
Therapy is supposed to be a place of healing, but when power is abused, the consequences are devastating. This episode exposes the ethical violations, psychological wreckage, and predators hiding behind professional titles. Other therapists have crossed the line as well. Complaints against Dr. Ali Sahebi alleged that he conducted group therapy in his home, served whiskey to patients, and engaged in a sexual relationship with a female patient. In July 2024, he was found guilty of unsatisfactory professional conduct and professional misconduct.
In another case, Dr. Daniel Lerom was forced to relinquish his license after being caught billing insurance while having sex with a patient during their sessions. Kristin Marchese was ultimately convicted of two felony counts of sexual exploitation, highlighting the urgent need for accountability in the mental health field.
Rox the Doc shares her own journey from working in corrections to private practice—where firm boundaries aren’t just ethical; they’re essential for survival.
If you need a forensic psychologist to represent you for damages in civil court due to this type of predatory behavior, book a consultation with Dana Anderson at www.psychologydr.com.
Need a therapist you can trust? For therapy services, visit Rox the Doc at www.roxthedoc.com.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Forensic Psychology and High-Performance Therapy
02:47 The Journey of Dr. Roxana Eubanks
05:50 Establishing Professional Boundaries in Therapy
09:02 The Importance of Ethical Practices in Psychology
11:50 Justifications for Unethical Behavior in Therapy
15:08 The Impact of Boundary Violations on Clients
18:10 Maintaining Professionalism in High-Stakes Environments
20:50 The Role of Accountability in Clinical Practice
23:55 The Dangers of Emotional Dependency in Therapy
27:07 The Need for Objective Data in Therapy
29:54 Case Study: The Consequences of Boundary Violations
33:02 Conclusion and Resources for Ethical Practice
Credits
Fruedian slip: Therapist jailed for sexual relationship with a patient (Fox6 Milwaukee)
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/killer-psychologist--6020549/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Killer Psychologist. I'm Dana Anderson, a forensic psychologist
and your host of the show. Killer Psychologist is for
true crime fanatics and anyone intrigued with the dark side
of psychology. Okay, welcome to the Killer Psychologist. We have
(00:22):
Rocks the doc here with us today, doctor Roxanna Eubanks.
She is a clinical psychologist and she has experience working
in corrections, but interestingly enough, she's transitioned to her own
private practice where she helps high performance athletes with stress
(00:43):
and specifically equestrian professionals. And I'm so curious about your journey,
how you got started so young, and tell me a
little bit more about your specialty. I'm fascinated with it
because I went on your website and I noticed that
you have this very specific boutique services that helps these
(01:06):
high performance athletes, and it sounds like you really customize
services for them. So I would love to hear your
journey and what made you decide to become a psychologist.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for having
me on. And I guess to start off, I've always
been really fascinated and interested in the intersection between psychology
and high pressure or high stakes environments. On a personal note,
my family they fled communists Romania and my grandfather was
(01:40):
incarcerated as a result of that. And so just seeing
the impact of the traumatic experiences how to this day
that has led to not just anxiety but also physical
health problems is kind of where my interest in psychology
started to build. And then early on in my career,
I just loved really challenging environments. I started working in
(02:02):
halfway houses, which really started feeding into my desire to
work in correctional settings. And then in my predoctoral training,
I did my internship at the Federal Bureau of Prisons
and so here I worked with inmates really just addressing
their trauma any substance use as well as the impact
(02:23):
of incarceration has on individuals, and I saw firsthand how
untreated trauma can impact not just individuals, but communities and societies.
So that all kind of shaped my belief that therapy
needs to be accessible to everyone, it needs to be
flexible as well as just to be tailored to the
(02:44):
unique demands of an individual's lifestyle. And so through my
experience in the corrections world, that's now why I started
offering concierge services as part of my private practice here,
I applied kind of all those lessons I learned into
prison to high performing athletes. These individuals tend to operate
(03:05):
under extreme pressure, isolation, and scrutiny, and so I've loved
just how flexible and mouldible the model is for them.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Thank you so much for sharing. Yes, I agree that
therapy needs to be accessible, and I noticed that you
can bring therapy to some on wherever they're at, going
to their location. Tell me how that works out. And
since we're kind of going to talk about boundaries today,
(03:36):
how do you enforce your boundaries that it's a professional
relationship when you meet them on site.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
It starts right from the beginning of my first conversation
with the individual, right when I'm kind of just screening them,
seeing what services they're interested in, as well as the
informed consent process, and so informed consent is not something
that's just kind of a one and done thing. It's
something that of course we get the client at the intake,
at the onset of services, as well as throughout the
(04:05):
process the therapeutic relationship. Those boundaries are really in my
intake paperwork and the contracts I have with these individuals.
Where we lay out, you know, what does the structure
of therapy look like, session lengths, communication outside of the session,
how all that transforms. And with concierge services specifically, it's
(04:27):
interesting because I can also meet them right whether it
be at their training facility, at a competition, and so
it's not just in a traditional therapy office. And so
this all of those dynamics are really clearly laid out
in my intake paperwork, as well as just the boundaries
that I am placing and continually shaping with that individual
(04:50):
from our first conversation.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I love clear and explicit boundaries at the onset of
therapy or any relationship, even a dating relationship or just
any relationship. I feel like I'm the Queen of boundaries.
So I make it really clear, I mean, right at
the beginning, just so we know the nature of this
relationship and what to expect from it. And so it's
(05:15):
so critical and as a psychologist too, I think that's
such an important component. So going over the consent, going
over the agreement, and sometimes I'll have the clients say
repeat back to me what your understanding is of our relationship.
And so the clients I deal with can be a
(05:35):
little different, but they can actually be incarcerated or in
an hospital or have limits to their capacity or understanding.
So I try to make sure that they understand what
to expect going forward, or if they've had a different
relationship with their therapists in the past that wasn't healthy,
(05:56):
or they behave poorly or there was some problem. I
like reiterate what will not be happening, or what will
be happening moving forward, or how things will be documented,
whether we're going to record the sessions, and like just
so professional because I do record sessions or off for that,
(06:16):
and we can consent to that. So at any point
you say this didn't happen or this happened, everything's just
above board. And even you know, summaries of our meeting
afterwards are sent to them. So boundaries are so critical.
People are coming to you with a need. They may
be in an emotional deficit, they're seeking help, or they're
(06:40):
having conflict in a relationship or some dynamics. So you
want to set the example of having good boundaries because
you want to show them how to do that in
their other relationships in their life.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Certainly, and even going off of what you said in
my intake paperwork. I even have a section where where
I list you know, these are what ethical behaviors look like.
This is what the therapeutic relationship entails. And if you
at any point you're concerned that boundaries have been crossed
or unethical behavior is taking place, this is where you
(07:14):
go to record it. And so, like you said, right
from the beginning, we're very explicit and what these boundaries
look like as well as in vivo in that moment
when something comes up where role models to them about
what an appropriate dynamic looks like and how they can
take that and not just in their relationship with you,
but their relationship with others.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Hoving forward, yes exactly, I love it and telling them
who governs me if I do any bad behavior. I'm
governed by the Board of Psychology in all state. How
they can find you know, I'm in California or license
in Nevada. You can look at the board and you
should verify if you're a therapist, psychologist, medical doctor, whoever
(07:58):
you're seeing. I don't care you're denist that they have
an active and valid license. We've all read the horror stories.
We're going to highlight them today, but you should you
most definitely should look if you were going to invest
time spent with me, definitely look at my website, verify
my license. And what I've found sometimes is like, oh wow,
(08:24):
this person is on probation or wait, they're suspended with
the board, Like what is going on here? And sometimes
you can find out a lot of information there. And
I will mention recently I was involved in a case
and it's a legal case. But on the other side,
(08:47):
they had hired a psychologist and we're seeing this person
for over a year. The first thing I do is
just verify they have a valid license. It's really simple.
And he did. But he had also was convicted of
fraud or building patients when there was no sessions, and
it was like in the sum of like forty five
(09:09):
thousand dollars and it went on for like a period
of time. So I actually read the information. It wasn't
just like a mistake, it was a pattern of behavior
that happened over many years and he stole money. I
brought that to the attorney's attention because it really, you know,
(09:29):
they hired the wrong person in my opinion, in it
didn't help their case in fact. Okay, so I just
really empower people to know who you're hiring and look
at their background. Right, you should be informed.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yes, definitely, don't take things just at face value. Do
your research, do your homework, you know. I think for
other services, we as individuals, we do so much research,
so much homework about the person that's going to be
giving us these services. And it's even more important when
it comes to medical professionals or clinicians that we're seeing.
And I love how the Internet has made all of
(10:08):
that so accessible just at your fingertips, and you can
even see if that clinician has ever had a complaint
filed against them. So we just have so much more
information now at our disposal and I think that's great.
Interestingly enough, I was on LinkedIn this morning because I
was just checking things out, and I just happened to
come across a medical professional who was licensed doctor, and
(10:33):
he was sharing how he had got in trouble with
the board for having a sexual relationship with the client,
and he was explaining the relationship and that people should.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Forgive him or he's moved on, or his discussion. I
ended up going to try to log back on to
find out more about that case, and then I lost
who it was, but I was so curious, so I
thought it was interesting. So this is a person now
after they've been found out or they're on probation or
there's some problem, they want to go back to the
social media and try to explain their behavior and try
(11:08):
to build trust back. And I mean for me personally,
so I'm not interested and I wouldn't hire them. There's
plenty of other clinicians out there. I mean, I will
just choose someone else.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Oh, yes, And I think the justification is so interesting
to think about. And that's something that comes up when
you read about therapists that have engaged in sexual relationships
with their clients. The way that they can justify it
to themselves. And so one way they often justify is, oh,
I'm helping my client, right, whether that be I'm helping
(11:45):
them work through something a relationship dynamic that's problematic, or
as well as you know, this is just what this
person needs. I've also heard where it's you know, we're
just we're both adults, we're both able to consent to this. Really,
the therapeutic model itself, it's a one sided relationship. It's
imbalance in and of itself. The client is usually coming
(12:09):
to you in a vulnerable state, and you, as the clinician,
you have expertise, you have credibility, and you're in a
position of power against this individual. And so when I
hear clinicians or the medical professional that you brought up
try to justify it and say, oh, you know, I've
learned from my mistake, I've moved on. I think you
should rehire me. I think that's incredibly harmful and not
(12:33):
just unethical, in some cases illegal, which we might talk
about later today as well.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Okay, you said justification and rationale, so I'm going here
with this one. I was reading this article this morning,
and I mean, honestly, my jaw dropped the rationalization for
some of these behaviors. So there's a doctor, Ali say,
be not sure if I'm saying his name right. He
(12:59):
was a Sydney based psychologists, very popular. I had like
a half million people following him, did ted talks. You know,
was married with kids, and he got in a relationship
with a client and they were having sex. So in
the article he started having group therapy in his home.
(13:21):
So if you want to talk about red flags, and
then after that introducing like whiskey, so that's what led
to sex in his home with a client, and he
eventually told her, we're doing this because I like you.
I love you so much. I want you to be
my partner. So his final defense in the end, it
(13:43):
was pretty incriminating. Okay. He sent texts like saying, I
will look you all over okay, and this is his defense, like,
I can't make this up. He said in his defense
that's how I show I care, And what I meant
was that's like how a cow licks her calf. And
then he put other texts like I admire your body.
(14:07):
He's like, I was just saying you are an energetic
and healthy person and like have an athletic body. Or
it's a metaphors like talk about gaslighting your client. I'm
sorry you went to him for therapy. How harmful is
this for people you go to a professional for help?
(14:28):
What if I had problems with drinking and sex and
now you're in this person's home like such manipulation and
this justifications just out of control.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
It really is, and the ramification of this can be
severe right, ranging from individual now developing PTSD as well
as just mistrust in medical professionals and clinicians in the
mental health field itself. It's crazy to me how when
we look at statistics, right, the numbers kind of vary.
(15:04):
Some of the research I've looked at, they kind of
tend to say about three percent of psychologists engage in
sexual relationships with their clients, and even one in fifty
is crazy, right, completely unacceptable. And so the fact that
this is happening over and over again, and these harmful
individuals continue to justify their actions as being helpful when,
(15:29):
like you said, our clients come to us for help, right,
this is supposed to be an environment where healing takes place,
where self discovery, we're growth, and so now for us
to have then become the perpetrators of this violence, of this.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Trauma is just disgusting. I'm going to be honest. It's
the hardest thing professionally I've had to deal with in
my career period. And I deal with, you know, tense
violent criminals from rape to murder to everything from all
the most horrific cases you can think of across setting.
(16:06):
So I deal with that. My horror in my career
is encountering professionals who manipulate, extort these relationships and cross
these professional boundaries end up having inappropriate relationships. It's caused
me absolute psychological distress by observing colleagues do that because
(16:29):
it's so upsetting to me, it's so horrifying for our profession,
and it's very traumatizing for the individuals going through that.
So I'm working with severe mental illness and then to
have your client that you're helping or somebody your colleague
do something like that, and I've experienced it in every
(16:50):
setting i've worked, by the way, and just like these
cases i'm talking about actually other professionals having sex with
severely mentally ill patients, like who are hospitalized or incarcerated,
I just don't have any tolerance for it. There's no excuse,
there's never a time. My reason for having such strict
(17:12):
boundaries upon the onset of any conversation is that I'm
leading this healthy example. Most of these people have been
abused physically or sexually or things to that nature. So
they've been groomed, or they're grooming others, or they're trying
to violate your boundaries. So right at the onset, like
I let them to know what a healthy relationship can
(17:32):
look like, and so that they learn and understand that
and I tell them so they won't be a victim
in the future, because you're not going to get yourself.
These are the warning signs, these are the red flags.
No one should do this to you. Ever. This is
how I'm teaching boundaries, like I would teach boundary classes
for patients so that they could learn how they would
(17:55):
not be victimized, like they can empower themselves. I just
can think of so many stories in my head of
other professionals crossing these lines, and it's been absolutely devastating
to what happened.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I couldn't agree more. And I think even when we
go back to the beginning of our training in our
doctoral programs, a lot of it is meant to kind
of weed out these behaviors, right to teach us how
to be ethical clinicians. And despite that, though even when
we're graduated, even when we're licensed, we all have a
(18:33):
personal responsibility to continue getting supervision when needed, consulting with
other professionals, ethical professionals, I just specify, as well as
just having that accountability aspect, because if we're not holding
ourselves accountable, and if other professionals around us are not
holding ourselves accountable, it can be really easy to start,
(18:54):
you know, kind of getting in these ethical gray areas
where these things can happen.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, so let's talk about boundaries. I'll just mention emotional
boundaries for people to think about. So, if you're a professional,
you never want to be an emotional deficit when you
show up to work expecting other people to meet your
emotional needs. That's not my role as a psychologist. Like,
that's a dangerous narrative expecting compliments or feedback, like adoration,
(19:24):
praise or like, No, you should not be expecting any
of that. You have a specific job to do and
to be honest, you know, in this profession course, if
you worked in corrections, that's a dangerous narrative for you
to even be accepting any praise or those are red
flags right away, and you don't want to be allowing
(19:48):
those comments or feedback. You need a nip it in
the bud, real quick flattery or anything. Come on, you
all have to tell me your experience working in a
federal prison.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Oh my gosh, I mean it was such a new
experience for me. I kind of was a deer in
the headlights, you know, in the beginning, because even though
I've always had boundaries not just in my personal life,
but my professional life. Like you said, when you're in
the correction world, your boundaries are very black and white.
They're very concrete. There is no flexibility there. And so
(20:19):
I remember one time, because you know inmates, not all
of them, but some of them, I think human beings
in general, right, we're very inquisitive. We test individuals, try
to see, Okay, how far can I get with this individual?
And so they'll do things all the time to test you.
And I was working once with a sex offender and
he just, I don't know, he gave me some kind
(20:40):
of compliment and he gave me a high five. And
so we were in their living area and there were
a lot of inmates walking around, and for a second
I had this kind of like out of body experience, like, Okay,
this individual just raised their hand to high five me.
If I was in private practice, maybe I would high
five them, right if it fit or it was suitable
(21:03):
for that interaction. But then I had to keep in mind, Okay,
this is the setting I'm in, and what is me
high fiving this individual going to communicate not just to them,
but the other people around them that are watching this interaction.
Take place, so I had to very much be aware
of my body language, not just verbally what I said,
(21:24):
but my body language and keep all of that in
check at all times. So I learned to kind of
not be cold, but just be very blunt, to be professional,
to be courteous and respectful, but to have boundaries that
were really solid because you needed to survive in that area.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah, and grooming starts with that initial introduction of physical
touch or contact, even if it's harmless at first, but
that's where it starts. So it's a no contact for me.
I worked in corrections. There is no contact. Look, I
(22:04):
worked in the psychospital for years and I never hugged patients.
And I'm telling you, my colleagues had their patients and
they disagreed with me, some of the nurses or other
medical professionals. It was one hundred percent no for me,
one hundred percent of the time. And I will continue
(22:26):
to set that boundary. Look, my mom works in hospice,
so that maybe that's different, but like, I won't, can't
do it, and it's it's just dangerous and it actually
did create problems, and I disagree with it because it
caused problems with how patients saw certain people getting hugs
(22:47):
or there was like a disparity or like females can
hug female staff, Like where does it end you have?
And it actually caused problems, It caused physical violence. I
think what I would have to ask professionals is like,
why do you need a hug? Why would you need
a hug from your workplace? And honestly, there were some
(23:08):
middle aged women I work with who wanted that type
of connection. It's like, yeah, get it from someplace else,
don't become to work and they did. I have realistic
boundaries and it's by design so that there's never any
miscommunication on where I stand.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I applaud that, and I think, like you said, it
can really start to become an ethical gray area and
it could lead to a dual relationship right where not
even just sexually, but maybe your client is now thinking
that your friends, right, you're showing favoritism, You're going to
make exceptions for them, and all of that can contribute
(23:46):
to unethical behavior. As clinicians, we always have to be
mindful of this because if we can start to lose objectivity,
whether that is lack of quality training, a lack of
supervision and consultation, as well if, like you said, maybe
personal vulnerabilities, you're having issues at home right that you're
not working on, you're not in your own therapy if
(24:07):
it's needed, And so we really need to be mindful
of these things, to take care of our side of
the yard or our side of the fence first, so
then we can show up as competent and ethical coalinishans.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah, one hundred percent agree. And there's some scary cases
that I was reviewing online where therapists have crossed the
boundary and it's so dangerous. And the case we're going
to talk about, you're dealing with unstable people. Many times
they're dealing with chronic suicidality, homicidal thoughts, they have a
(24:43):
number of issues, they've been psychiatrically hospitalized, or they have
serious felony convictions. So they are dangerous. So you need
to be careful. It could cost your life. And so
there are cases where it's like in the end, that
clinician is now filing for a restraining order and this
(25:07):
client has become obsessed with them, So what happened? How
do we get here?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
And I think sometimes it's a gradual process. I think
a lot of times we think that oh, maybe this
was just a isolated event right where it led to
this atrocious behavior, un ethical, illegal behavior. But really it's
like we talked about earlier, it's the slow decaying of boundaries.
(25:33):
It's you know, engaging excessive self disclosure with your client
when it's not suitable or helpful for them, and encouraging
your client to be dependent on you versus independent, and
especially when you have cases or like you said right
where this individual has extreme trauma. They've been hospitalized several times.
(25:54):
You know, suicidality is part of their history. We really
want to be extra cautious to teach them healthy coping
mechanisms so they're independent and that they don't need us anymore. Right,
we want to work ourselves out of a job exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
So I don't do a lot of therapy, but when
I do, it's very clear. It's very time limited, and
it's measurable with progress and notes and documentation, and like
I'll do the testing before we have all the barographs
on where their symptoms are. We do it at the
end and then like maybe you need more help, we
(26:29):
can refer out. So it's not like this forever relationship
And so one of the things I've seen lately. I'm
going to say this. You know, I deal with legal cases,
so I'm scrutinizing professionals records, and I'm seeing some very
alarming things that look like fraud to me. So what
are you doing for two years in therapy saying that
(26:51):
person has no disorder? That's happening in a court case
right now? I have question. I said, no, this person
cannot go that psychologist anymore. I have no I do
what they're doing. Plus they're doing well, we know in
fact they're doing nothing. Like now you're called to testifying court.
I need you to explain that to me. It's so dangerous.
Don't have those therapists. It in fact, will run your
(27:11):
civil case, or your child custody case or your case.
Rehire this person. It's not helpful at all, and it's
a giant waste of money. And then it turns out
a lot of times it is fraud. So I like
to build relationships with other therapists so I can know
who to trust and who to refer to. So I'll
do like legal cases, and I'll refer someone out and
(27:33):
say I do quarterly reports to the court for mental
health diversion. I'm looking at what is happening in therapy
and what are the improvements, right, And I'm like looking
for it, and I want receipts.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yes, objective receipts. Great shous Right. It's so important to
have that objective data for ourselves. And that's also part
of being an ethical clinician, a competent clinician in my book,
and when we talk about these psychologists or clinicians that
engage in unethical behavior, whether it be sexual relationships, whether
(28:09):
it be financial abuse, fraud, you know, things of that nature,
we don't see a lot of objective data, right. It's
all very subjective. That's where these boundaries start getting crossed.
It's more like a friendship or romantic partnership versus being science.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, and I wanted to share a couple of clips
about this case.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
It's not uncommon for a patient to start to confuse
that emotional intimacy with something akin to love.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
I told him find the church that said I've had
in love with my therapists and I can't stop taking
about her. I have sexual dreams about her.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Kristin Marksey. She was a therapist who ended up getting
emotionally involved with her client, and so it's sort of
like you said, over time there's you know, maybe a
connection where the client thinks there's some this emotional connection
to becoming intimate or they're sharing all this stuff and
for them, the client feels that they're maybe seeing the
(29:09):
relationship differently. And in this particular case, the client Mark Huckbye,
he confessed his love to his therapist and so he
felt that there was a relationship, and so they ended up.
He was no longer able to see her. But over
like six months, that client was sent back to her
(29:30):
where she continued to see him again and there wasn't
good boundaries. It started progressing from sexual banter on social
media through Facebook app to eventually a full fledged affair
where they were having sex during their entire hour sessions
at the facility. And so when we play that clip here, at.
Speaker 5 (29:53):
First they traded sexually explicit messages on Facebook, then started
hooking up at local hotels. Before long they were throwing
caution to the wind.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
If I would go to therapy with her at awkward
and we would have such an author for the entire hour.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
But in the end, it's so dangerous for so many reasons.
This person in the end, that relationship meant something very
different for him. He in fact said he was diagnosed
with bipolar, had PTSD, had a number of issues in
prior relationships, and he was dealing with thoughts of self
(30:35):
harm and harmed others, and I wanted to harm her.
So then all this builds up were he now wants
to kill her, and now she's crying, and she's getting
restraining order, this is going to court. She ended up resigning,
turning over her license, but she ended up getting three
years supervised probation, six months of GEL relinquishing her license.
(30:58):
But like the damage to the client, and you can
listen to him and as clip he says how he
wants to kill himself and her together.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
How do you feel about it today? Do you want
to be honest with you? Yeah? Please, I want to
kill her today.
Speaker 5 (31:17):
His tone was matter of fact, but his intent was clear.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
I want to kill her and then kill myself like
a love suicide, like a Romeo and Juliet.
Speaker 5 (31:25):
Two days earlier, Markesi had filed for a restraining order.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
It's her fault.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
She did this to him.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Now I'm in Winnebago because I don't cuss myself, because
if I get let out, I will kill her. I
will kill her and then I will kill myself and
we will both go to God and short this help.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Now.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
I don't think you understand how much you've armed him.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
Judge Chad Kirkman sentenced Marchesi to three years of supervised probation,
including six months in the Kenosha County Jail. But the
indiscretion is one that will follow her for the rest
of her life.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
She's damaged, not just him, that she's damaged the mensa profession.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
And that is just a reminder for anyone to have boundaries.
I deal with clients like that that are homicidal, and
I demonstrate very clear boundaries to actually help them work
and navigate through those feelings. But like the long term
effect for this person to trust a professional, well.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
We talk about this subject. We focus a lot on
ethical consequences, legal potentially, but truly the cost, the highest
cost is paid by the client. Right where now this
individual has experienced even more trauma and who knows if
they'll be able to repair right or they be able
(32:45):
to trust individuals again, providers to have healthy relationships with
their family members, their friends. Like you said, the consequences
of this are just so severe and we all need
to be really mindful of that when it comes to
being ethical providers.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Well, thank you for being how you are ethical clear boundaries.
I would love to refer clients to you, and I
love your website. I love the services you're offering. I
might like steal some ideas from you too for concierge services.
I think that's great. I think we need that definitely.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
No, it's my pleasure and I love talking to you
and discussing these things because, like we said so our profession,
we have ethical guidelines and a lot of them are
pretty black and white, but depending on, like maybe the
setting you're working in, sometimes we can be a little
bit flexible with maybe our own personal boundaries. But I
(33:43):
think it's great when even though you're doing forensic work
and I'm now in the private sector, we're still on
the same page. We're holding each other accountable as well
as hopefully educating other clinicians on what they need to
do and the importance of accountability.
Speaker 5 (33:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, And I also want to mention the Board of
Psychology hires me or other professional boards hire me to
do evows on these situations where the professional is in
legal trouble and I do their psyche val. So I
would just encourage anyone out there that's listening see someone
before it comes court ordered or your license is revoked
(34:22):
or suspended. We all have a duty to do no
harm and you have to maintain your mental health every day.
So if any point, any mental health professional, not just
mental health, just any professional that is licensed, make sure
you take the time to invest in yourself, see someone
(34:42):
and get a psychological evaluation. My opinion is they should
be mandatory for if you're a licensed doctor psychologist, you
should be mentally fit. You should be cleared psychologically. That's
my opinion on that. I think some people aren't, and
I would say anyone if you're going to go into
this profession, just make sure that you are fit you
(35:05):
or mentally fit yourself before you try to go help
anyone else, like take a look inside.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Definitely, Just like while we're on an airplane, they tell
you in case of emergency, you put your mask on first,
and any health individuals around you, we need to take
care of ourselves first, so we reduce the likelihood of
us engaging in any of these problematic behaviors.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
It was wonderful chatting with you today. Where can people
find you if they want to hire you? I feel
like I want to hire you as my therapist also.
It was my pleasure. But for those of you who
are interested in my services or even consultation, you can
find me at rocksthdock dot com as well as on
Instagram and.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
TikTok at rocksthedock. So thank you so much for having me.
This was truly an honor.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Thank you, Rocks. It was wonderful. Thank you so much.
Thank you for listening to Killer Psychologists. To watch full
video episodes or if you want to interact with me,
you can find Killer Psychologists on YouTube. You can also
get notified of new episodes by signing up in my
stand store. Now, if you want to work with me,
(36:17):
you can book a console. My website is psychologydoctor dot com.
That's psychologydr dot com.
Welcome to Killer Psychologist. I'm Dana Anderson, a forensic psychologist
and your host of the show. Killer Psychologist is for
true crime fanatics and anyone intrigued with the dark side
of psychology. Okay, welcome to the Killer Psychologist. We have
(00:22):
Rocks the doc here with us today, doctor Roxanna Eubanks.
She is a clinical psychologist and she has experience working
in corrections, but interestingly enough, she's transitioned to her own
private practice where she helps high performance athletes with stress
(00:43):
and specifically equestrian professionals. And I'm so curious about your journey,
how you got started so young, and tell me a
little bit more about your specialty. I'm fascinated with it
because I went on your website and I noticed that
you have this very specific boutique services that helps these
(01:06):
high performance athletes, and it sounds like you really customize
services for them. So I would love to hear your
journey and what made you decide to become a psychologist.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, first of all, thank you so much for having
me on. And I guess to start off, I've always
been really fascinated and interested in the intersection between psychology
and high pressure or high stakes environments. On a personal note,
my family they fled communists Romania and my grandfather was
(01:40):
incarcerated as a result of that. And so just seeing
the impact of the traumatic experiences how to this day
that has led to not just anxiety but also physical
health problems is kind of where my interest in psychology
started to build. And then early on in my career,
I just loved really challenging environments. I started working in
(02:02):
halfway houses, which really started feeding into my desire to
work in correctional settings. And then in my predoctoral training,
I did my internship at the Federal Bureau of Prisons
and so here I worked with inmates really just addressing
their trauma any substance use as well as the impact
(02:23):
of incarceration has on individuals, and I saw firsthand how
untreated trauma can impact not just individuals, but communities and societies.
So that all kind of shaped my belief that therapy
needs to be accessible to everyone, it needs to be
flexible as well as just to be tailored to the
(02:44):
unique demands of an individual's lifestyle. And so through my
experience in the corrections world, that's now why I started
offering concierge services as part of my private practice here,
I applied kind of all those lessons I learned into
prison to high performing athletes. These individuals tend to operate
(03:05):
under extreme pressure, isolation, and scrutiny, and so I've loved
just how flexible and mouldible the model is for them.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Thank you so much for sharing. Yes, I agree that
therapy needs to be accessible, and I noticed that you
can bring therapy to some on wherever they're at, going
to their location. Tell me how that works out. And
since we're kind of going to talk about boundaries today,
(03:36):
how do you enforce your boundaries that it's a professional
relationship when you meet them on site.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
It starts right from the beginning of my first conversation
with the individual, right when I'm kind of just screening them,
seeing what services they're interested in, as well as the
informed consent process, and so informed consent is not something
that's just kind of a one and done thing. It's
something that of course we get the client at the intake,
at the onset of services, as well as throughout the
(04:05):
process the therapeutic relationship. Those boundaries are really in my
intake paperwork and the contracts I have with these individuals.
Where we lay out, you know, what does the structure
of therapy look like, session lengths, communication outside of the session,
how all that transforms. And with concierge services specifically, it's
(04:27):
interesting because I can also meet them right whether it
be at their training facility, at a competition, and so
it's not just in a traditional therapy office. And so
this all of those dynamics are really clearly laid out
in my intake paperwork, as well as just the boundaries
that I am placing and continually shaping with that individual
(04:50):
from our first conversation.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I love clear and explicit boundaries at the onset of
therapy or any relationship, even a dating relationship or just
any relationship. I feel like I'm the Queen of boundaries.
So I make it really clear, I mean, right at
the beginning, just so we know the nature of this
relationship and what to expect from it. And so it's
(05:15):
so critical and as a psychologist too, I think that's
such an important component. So going over the consent, going
over the agreement, and sometimes I'll have the clients say
repeat back to me what your understanding is of our relationship.
And so the clients I deal with can be a
(05:35):
little different, but they can actually be incarcerated or in
an hospital or have limits to their capacity or understanding.
So I try to make sure that they understand what
to expect going forward, or if they've had a different
relationship with their therapists in the past that wasn't healthy,
(05:56):
or they behave poorly or there was some problem. I
like reiterate what will not be happening, or what will
be happening moving forward, or how things will be documented,
whether we're going to record the sessions, and like just
so professional because I do record sessions or off for that,
(06:16):
and we can consent to that. So at any point
you say this didn't happen or this happened, everything's just
above board. And even you know, summaries of our meeting
afterwards are sent to them. So boundaries are so critical.
People are coming to you with a need. They may
be in an emotional deficit, they're seeking help, or they're
(06:40):
having conflict in a relationship or some dynamics. So you
want to set the example of having good boundaries because
you want to show them how to do that in
their other relationships in their life.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Certainly, and even going off of what you said in
my intake paperwork. I even have a section where where
I list you know, these are what ethical behaviors look like.
This is what the therapeutic relationship entails. And if you
at any point you're concerned that boundaries have been crossed
or unethical behavior is taking place, this is where you
(07:14):
go to record it. And so, like you said, right
from the beginning, we're very explicit and what these boundaries
look like as well as in vivo in that moment
when something comes up where role models to them about
what an appropriate dynamic looks like and how they can
take that and not just in their relationship with you,
but their relationship with others.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Hoving forward, yes exactly, I love it and telling them
who governs me if I do any bad behavior. I'm
governed by the Board of Psychology in all state. How
they can find you know, I'm in California or license
in Nevada. You can look at the board and you
should verify if you're a therapist, psychologist, medical doctor, whoever
(07:58):
you're seeing. I don't care you're denist that they have
an active and valid license. We've all read the horror stories.
We're going to highlight them today, but you should you
most definitely should look if you were going to invest
time spent with me, definitely look at my website, verify
my license. And what I've found sometimes is like, oh wow,
(08:24):
this person is on probation or wait, they're suspended with
the board, Like what is going on here? And sometimes
you can find out a lot of information there. And
I will mention recently I was involved in a case
and it's a legal case. But on the other side,
(08:47):
they had hired a psychologist and we're seeing this person
for over a year. The first thing I do is
just verify they have a valid license. It's really simple.
And he did. But he had also was convicted of
fraud or building patients when there was no sessions, and
it was like in the sum of like forty five
(09:09):
thousand dollars and it went on for like a period
of time. So I actually read the information. It wasn't
just like a mistake, it was a pattern of behavior
that happened over many years and he stole money. I
brought that to the attorney's attention because it really, you know,
(09:29):
they hired the wrong person in my opinion, in it
didn't help their case in fact. Okay, so I just
really empower people to know who you're hiring and look
at their background. Right, you should be informed.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yes, definitely, don't take things just at face value. Do
your research, do your homework, you know. I think for
other services, we as individuals, we do so much research,
so much homework about the person that's going to be
giving us these services. And it's even more important when
it comes to medical professionals or clinicians that we're seeing.
And I love how the Internet has made all of
(10:08):
that so accessible just at your fingertips, and you can
even see if that clinician has ever had a complaint
filed against them. So we just have so much more
information now at our disposal and I think that's great.
Interestingly enough, I was on LinkedIn this morning because I
was just checking things out, and I just happened to
come across a medical professional who was licensed doctor, and
(10:33):
he was sharing how he had got in trouble with
the board for having a sexual relationship with the client,
and he was explaining the relationship and that people should.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Forgive him or he's moved on, or his discussion. I
ended up going to try to log back on to
find out more about that case, and then I lost
who it was, but I was so curious, so I
thought it was interesting. So this is a person now
after they've been found out or they're on probation or
there's some problem, they want to go back to the
social media and try to explain their behavior and try
(11:08):
to build trust back. And I mean for me personally,
so I'm not interested and I wouldn't hire them. There's
plenty of other clinicians out there. I mean, I will
just choose someone else.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Oh, yes, And I think the justification is so interesting
to think about. And that's something that comes up when
you read about therapists that have engaged in sexual relationships
with their clients. The way that they can justify it
to themselves. And so one way they often justify is, oh,
I'm helping my client, right, whether that be I'm helping
(11:45):
them work through something a relationship dynamic that's problematic, or
as well as you know, this is just what this
person needs. I've also heard where it's you know, we're
just we're both adults, we're both able to consent to this. Really,
the therapeutic model itself, it's a one sided relationship. It's
imbalance in and of itself. The client is usually coming
(12:09):
to you in a vulnerable state, and you, as the clinician,
you have expertise, you have credibility, and you're in a
position of power against this individual. And so when I
hear clinicians or the medical professional that you brought up
try to justify it and say, oh, you know, I've
learned from my mistake, I've moved on. I think you
should rehire me. I think that's incredibly harmful and not
(12:33):
just unethical, in some cases illegal, which we might talk
about later today as well.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Okay, you said justification and rationale, so I'm going here
with this one. I was reading this article this morning,
and I mean, honestly, my jaw dropped the rationalization for
some of these behaviors. So there's a doctor, Ali say,
be not sure if I'm saying his name right. He
(12:59):
was a Sydney based psychologists, very popular. I had like
a half million people following him, did ted talks. You know,
was married with kids, and he got in a relationship
with a client and they were having sex. So in
the article he started having group therapy in his home.
(13:21):
So if you want to talk about red flags, and
then after that introducing like whiskey, so that's what led
to sex in his home with a client, and he
eventually told her, we're doing this because I like you.
I love you so much. I want you to be
my partner. So his final defense in the end, it
(13:43):
was pretty incriminating. Okay. He sent texts like saying, I
will look you all over okay, and this is his defense, like,
I can't make this up. He said in his defense
that's how I show I care, And what I meant
was that's like how a cow licks her calf. And
then he put other texts like I admire your body.
(14:07):
He's like, I was just saying you are an energetic
and healthy person and like have an athletic body. Or
it's a metaphors like talk about gaslighting your client. I'm
sorry you went to him for therapy. How harmful is
this for people you go to a professional for help?
(14:28):
What if I had problems with drinking and sex and
now you're in this person's home like such manipulation and
this justifications just out of control.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
It really is, and the ramification of this can be
severe right, ranging from individual now developing PTSD as well
as just mistrust in medical professionals and clinicians in the
mental health field itself. It's crazy to me how when
we look at statistics, right, the numbers kind of vary.
(15:04):
Some of the research I've looked at, they kind of
tend to say about three percent of psychologists engage in
sexual relationships with their clients, and even one in fifty
is crazy, right, completely unacceptable. And so the fact that
this is happening over and over again, and these harmful
individuals continue to justify their actions as being helpful when,
(15:29):
like you said, our clients come to us for help, right,
this is supposed to be an environment where healing takes place,
where self discovery, we're growth, and so now for us
to have then become the perpetrators of this violence, of this.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Trauma is just disgusting. I'm going to be honest. It's
the hardest thing professionally I've had to deal with in
my career period. And I deal with, you know, tense
violent criminals from rape to murder to everything from all
the most horrific cases you can think of across setting.
(16:06):
So I deal with that. My horror in my career
is encountering professionals who manipulate, extort these relationships and cross
these professional boundaries end up having inappropriate relationships. It's caused
me absolute psychological distress by observing colleagues do that because
(16:29):
it's so upsetting to me, it's so horrifying for our profession,
and it's very traumatizing for the individuals going through that.
So I'm working with severe mental illness and then to
have your client that you're helping or somebody your colleague
do something like that, and I've experienced it in every
(16:50):
setting i've worked, by the way, and just like these
cases i'm talking about actually other professionals having sex with
severely mentally ill patients, like who are hospitalized or incarcerated,
I just don't have any tolerance for it. There's no excuse,
there's never a time. My reason for having such strict
(17:12):
boundaries upon the onset of any conversation is that I'm
leading this healthy example. Most of these people have been
abused physically or sexually or things to that nature. So
they've been groomed, or they're grooming others, or they're trying
to violate your boundaries. So right at the onset, like
I let them to know what a healthy relationship can
(17:32):
look like, and so that they learn and understand that
and I tell them so they won't be a victim
in the future, because you're not going to get yourself.
These are the warning signs, these are the red flags.
No one should do this to you. Ever. This is
how I'm teaching boundaries, like I would teach boundary classes
for patients so that they could learn how they would
(17:55):
not be victimized, like they can empower themselves. I just
can think of so many stories in my head of
other professionals crossing these lines, and it's been absolutely devastating
to what happened.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I couldn't agree more. And I think even when we
go back to the beginning of our training in our
doctoral programs, a lot of it is meant to kind
of weed out these behaviors, right to teach us how
to be ethical clinicians. And despite that, though even when
we're graduated, even when we're licensed, we all have a
(18:33):
personal responsibility to continue getting supervision when needed, consulting with
other professionals, ethical professionals, I just specify, as well as
just having that accountability aspect, because if we're not holding
ourselves accountable, and if other professionals around us are not
holding ourselves accountable, it can be really easy to start,
(18:54):
you know, kind of getting in these ethical gray areas
where these things can happen.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, so let's talk about boundaries. I'll just mention emotional
boundaries for people to think about. So, if you're a professional,
you never want to be an emotional deficit when you
show up to work expecting other people to meet your
emotional needs. That's not my role as a psychologist. Like,
that's a dangerous narrative expecting compliments or feedback, like adoration,
(19:24):
praise or like, No, you should not be expecting any
of that. You have a specific job to do and
to be honest, you know, in this profession course, if
you worked in corrections, that's a dangerous narrative for you
to even be accepting any praise or those are red
flags right away, and you don't want to be allowing
(19:48):
those comments or feedback. You need a nip it in
the bud, real quick flattery or anything. Come on, you
all have to tell me your experience working in a
federal prison.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Oh my gosh, I mean it was such a new
experience for me. I kind of was a deer in
the headlights, you know, in the beginning, because even though
I've always had boundaries not just in my personal life,
but my professional life. Like you said, when you're in
the correction world, your boundaries are very black and white.
They're very concrete. There is no flexibility there. And so
(20:19):
I remember one time, because you know inmates, not all
of them, but some of them, I think human beings
in general, right, we're very inquisitive. We test individuals, try
to see, Okay, how far can I get with this individual?
And so they'll do things all the time to test you.
And I was working once with a sex offender and
he just, I don't know, he gave me some kind
(20:40):
of compliment and he gave me a high five. And
so we were in their living area and there were
a lot of inmates walking around, and for a second
I had this kind of like out of body experience, like, Okay,
this individual just raised their hand to high five me.
If I was in private practice, maybe I would high
five them, right if it fit or it was suitable
(21:03):
for that interaction. But then I had to keep in mind, Okay,
this is the setting I'm in, and what is me
high fiving this individual going to communicate not just to them,
but the other people around them that are watching this interaction.
Take place, so I had to very much be aware
of my body language, not just verbally what I said,
(21:24):
but my body language and keep all of that in
check at all times. So I learned to kind of
not be cold, but just be very blunt, to be professional,
to be courteous and respectful, but to have boundaries that
were really solid because you needed to survive in that area.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah, and grooming starts with that initial introduction of physical
touch or contact, even if it's harmless at first, but
that's where it starts. So it's a no contact for me.
I worked in corrections. There is no contact. Look, I
(22:04):
worked in the psychospital for years and I never hugged patients.
And I'm telling you, my colleagues had their patients and
they disagreed with me, some of the nurses or other
medical professionals. It was one hundred percent no for me,
one hundred percent of the time. And I will continue
(22:26):
to set that boundary. Look, my mom works in hospice,
so that maybe that's different, but like, I won't, can't
do it, and it's it's just dangerous and it actually
did create problems, and I disagree with it because it
caused problems with how patients saw certain people getting hugs
(22:47):
or there was like a disparity or like females can
hug female staff, Like where does it end you have?
And it actually caused problems, It caused physical violence. I
think what I would have to ask professionals is like,
why do you need a hug? Why would you need
a hug from your workplace? And honestly, there were some
(23:08):
middle aged women I work with who wanted that type
of connection. It's like, yeah, get it from someplace else,
don't become to work and they did. I have realistic
boundaries and it's by design so that there's never any
miscommunication on where I stand.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I applaud that, and I think, like you said, it
can really start to become an ethical gray area and
it could lead to a dual relationship right where not
even just sexually, but maybe your client is now thinking
that your friends, right, you're showing favoritism, You're going to
make exceptions for them, and all of that can contribute
(23:46):
to unethical behavior. As clinicians, we always have to be
mindful of this because if we can start to lose objectivity,
whether that is lack of quality training, a lack of
supervision and consultation, as well if, like you said, maybe
personal vulnerabilities, you're having issues at home right that you're
not working on, you're not in your own therapy if
(24:07):
it's needed, And so we really need to be mindful
of these things, to take care of our side of
the yard or our side of the fence first, so
then we can show up as competent and ethical coalinishans.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah, one hundred percent agree. And there's some scary cases
that I was reviewing online where therapists have crossed the
boundary and it's so dangerous. And the case we're going
to talk about, you're dealing with unstable people. Many times
they're dealing with chronic suicidality, homicidal thoughts, they have a
(24:43):
number of issues, they've been psychiatrically hospitalized, or they have
serious felony convictions. So they are dangerous. So you need
to be careful. It could cost your life. And so
there are cases where it's like in the end, that
clinician is now filing for a restraining order and this
(25:07):
client has become obsessed with them, So what happened? How
do we get here?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
And I think sometimes it's a gradual process. I think
a lot of times we think that oh, maybe this
was just a isolated event right where it led to
this atrocious behavior, un ethical, illegal behavior. But really it's
like we talked about earlier, it's the slow decaying of boundaries.
(25:33):
It's you know, engaging excessive self disclosure with your client
when it's not suitable or helpful for them, and encouraging
your client to be dependent on you versus independent, and
especially when you have cases or like you said right
where this individual has extreme trauma. They've been hospitalized several times.
(25:54):
You know, suicidality is part of their history. We really
want to be extra cautious to teach them healthy coping
mechanisms so they're independent and that they don't need us anymore. Right,
we want to work ourselves out of a job exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
So I don't do a lot of therapy, but when
I do, it's very clear. It's very time limited, and
it's measurable with progress and notes and documentation, and like
I'll do the testing before we have all the barographs
on where their symptoms are. We do it at the
end and then like maybe you need more help, we
(26:29):
can refer out. So it's not like this forever relationship
And so one of the things I've seen lately. I'm
going to say this. You know, I deal with legal cases,
so I'm scrutinizing professionals records, and I'm seeing some very
alarming things that look like fraud to me. So what
are you doing for two years in therapy saying that
(26:51):
person has no disorder? That's happening in a court case
right now? I have question. I said, no, this person
cannot go that psychologist anymore. I have no I do
what they're doing. Plus they're doing well, we know in
fact they're doing nothing. Like now you're called to testifying court.
I need you to explain that to me. It's so dangerous.
Don't have those therapists. It in fact, will run your
(27:11):
civil case, or your child custody case or your case.
Rehire this person. It's not helpful at all, and it's
a giant waste of money. And then it turns out
a lot of times it is fraud. So I like
to build relationships with other therapists so I can know
who to trust and who to refer to. So I'll
do like legal cases, and I'll refer someone out and
(27:33):
say I do quarterly reports to the court for mental
health diversion. I'm looking at what is happening in therapy
and what are the improvements, right, And I'm like looking
for it, and I want receipts.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yes, objective receipts. Great shous Right. It's so important to
have that objective data for ourselves. And that's also part
of being an ethical clinician, a competent clinician in my book,
and when we talk about these psychologists or clinicians that
engage in unethical behavior, whether it be sexual relationships, whether
(28:09):
it be financial abuse, fraud, you know, things of that nature,
we don't see a lot of objective data, right. It's
all very subjective. That's where these boundaries start getting crossed.
It's more like a friendship or romantic partnership versus being science.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, and I wanted to share a couple of clips
about this case.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
It's not uncommon for a patient to start to confuse
that emotional intimacy with something akin to love.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
I told him find the church that said I've had
in love with my therapists and I can't stop taking
about her. I have sexual dreams about her.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Kristin Marksey. She was a therapist who ended up getting
emotionally involved with her client, and so it's sort of
like you said, over time there's you know, maybe a
connection where the client thinks there's some this emotional connection
to becoming intimate or they're sharing all this stuff and
for them, the client feels that they're maybe seeing the
(29:09):
relationship differently. And in this particular case, the client Mark Huckbye,
he confessed his love to his therapist and so he
felt that there was a relationship, and so they ended up.
He was no longer able to see her. But over
like six months, that client was sent back to her
(29:30):
where she continued to see him again and there wasn't
good boundaries. It started progressing from sexual banter on social
media through Facebook app to eventually a full fledged affair
where they were having sex during their entire hour sessions
at the facility. And so when we play that clip here, at.
Speaker 5 (29:53):
First they traded sexually explicit messages on Facebook, then started
hooking up at local hotels. Before long they were throwing
caution to the wind.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
If I would go to therapy with her at awkward
and we would have such an author for the entire hour.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
But in the end, it's so dangerous for so many reasons.
This person in the end, that relationship meant something very
different for him. He in fact said he was diagnosed
with bipolar, had PTSD, had a number of issues in
prior relationships, and he was dealing with thoughts of self
(30:35):
harm and harmed others, and I wanted to harm her.
So then all this builds up were he now wants
to kill her, and now she's crying, and she's getting
restraining order, this is going to court. She ended up resigning,
turning over her license, but she ended up getting three
years supervised probation, six months of GEL relinquishing her license.
(30:58):
But like the damage to the client, and you can
listen to him and as clip he says how he
wants to kill himself and her together.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
How do you feel about it today? Do you want
to be honest with you? Yeah? Please, I want to
kill her today.
Speaker 5 (31:17):
His tone was matter of fact, but his intent was clear.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
I want to kill her and then kill myself like
a love suicide, like a Romeo and Juliet.
Speaker 5 (31:25):
Two days earlier, Markesi had filed for a restraining order.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
It's her fault.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
She did this to him.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Now I'm in Winnebago because I don't cuss myself, because
if I get let out, I will kill her. I
will kill her and then I will kill myself and
we will both go to God and short this help.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Now.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
I don't think you understand how much you've armed him.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
Judge Chad Kirkman sentenced Marchesi to three years of supervised probation,
including six months in the Kenosha County Jail. But the
indiscretion is one that will follow her for the rest
of her life.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
She's damaged, not just him, that she's damaged the mensa profession.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
And that is just a reminder for anyone to have boundaries.
I deal with clients like that that are homicidal, and
I demonstrate very clear boundaries to actually help them work
and navigate through those feelings. But like the long term
effect for this person to trust a professional, well.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
We talk about this subject. We focus a lot on
ethical consequences, legal potentially, but truly the cost, the highest
cost is paid by the client. Right where now this
individual has experienced even more trauma and who knows if
they'll be able to repair right or they be able
(32:45):
to trust individuals again, providers to have healthy relationships with
their family members, their friends. Like you said, the consequences
of this are just so severe and we all need
to be really mindful of that when it comes to
being ethical providers.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Well, thank you for being how you are ethical clear boundaries.
I would love to refer clients to you, and I
love your website. I love the services you're offering. I
might like steal some ideas from you too for concierge services.
I think that's great. I think we need that definitely.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
No, it's my pleasure and I love talking to you
and discussing these things because, like we said so our profession,
we have ethical guidelines and a lot of them are
pretty black and white, but depending on, like maybe the
setting you're working in, sometimes we can be a little
bit flexible with maybe our own personal boundaries. But I
(33:43):
think it's great when even though you're doing forensic work
and I'm now in the private sector, we're still on
the same page. We're holding each other accountable as well
as hopefully educating other clinicians on what they need to
do and the importance of accountability.
Speaker 5 (33:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, And I also want to mention the Board of
Psychology hires me or other professional boards hire me to
do evows on these situations where the professional is in
legal trouble and I do their psyche val. So I
would just encourage anyone out there that's listening see someone
before it comes court ordered or your license is revoked
(34:22):
or suspended. We all have a duty to do no
harm and you have to maintain your mental health every day.
So if any point, any mental health professional, not just
mental health, just any professional that is licensed, make sure
you take the time to invest in yourself, see someone
(34:42):
and get a psychological evaluation. My opinion is they should
be mandatory for if you're a licensed doctor psychologist, you
should be mentally fit. You should be cleared psychologically. That's
my opinion on that. I think some people aren't, and
I would say anyone if you're going to go into
this profession, just make sure that you are fit you
(35:05):
or mentally fit yourself before you try to go help
anyone else, like take a look inside.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Definitely, Just like while we're on an airplane, they tell
you in case of emergency, you put your mask on first,
and any health individuals around you, we need to take
care of ourselves first, so we reduce the likelihood of
us engaging in any of these problematic behaviors.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
It was wonderful chatting with you today. Where can people
find you if they want to hire you? I feel
like I want to hire you as my therapist also.
It was my pleasure. But for those of you who
are interested in my services or even consultation, you can
find me at rocksthdock dot com as well as on
Instagram and.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
TikTok at rocksthedock. So thank you so much for having me.
This was truly an honor.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Thank you, Rocks. It was wonderful. Thank you so much.
Thank you for listening to Killer Psychologists. To watch full
video episodes or if you want to interact with me,
you can find Killer Psychologists on YouTube. You can also
get notified of new episodes by signing up in my
stand store. Now, if you want to work with me,
(36:17):
you can book a console. My website is psychologydoctor dot com.
That's psychologydr dot com.
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