May 21, 2025 • 43 mins
A Florida attorney. A jailhouse drug ring. And a synthetic street drug disguised as legal mail. Welcome to Paper Dope.
Dana Anderson is joined by defense attorney Alex King to unpack the case of Jacksonville lawyer Nathan Williams—arrested in January 2025 for allegedly smuggling drug-laced documents into the Duval County Jail. Authorities say Williams conspired with inmates and their families to sneak in synthetic marijuana, known as K2 or Spice, in exchange for money. His arrest was part of "Operation Stamp Collection," a crackdown that significantly reduced inmate overdoses.
Linked to erratic behavior, overdoses, and sudden death, “paper dope” is volatile by design—each hit a chemical wildcard. What exactly is it? How is it made? And what happens when the defense becomes the defendant?
Alex King breaks down the drug, the charges, and the ethical fallout—plus a look at Dr. John W. Huffman, the scientist whose research compound JWH-018 was hijacked for street use. Think Walter White—but legal mail edition.
📌 Connect with Alex King: https://www.jaxcriminal.com/about-us/alex-king
🧠 Need a Killer Psychologist? http://www.psychologydr.com
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Case
02:00 Understanding the Smuggling Mechanism
05:57 Security Concerns in Jails
07:01 The Role of Attorneys in Drug Smuggling
11:53 Financial Pressures and Ethical Dilemmas
12:18 White Collar Crime Dynamics
16:12 Chemical Composition of Synthetic Drugs
19:32 Impact of Drug Smuggling on Jail Protocols
21:31 Understanding K2 and Spice
24:02 The Dangers of Misinformation
27:30 Educating the Youth on Drug Risks
30:20 The Dangers of Synthetic Drugs
33:45 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/killer-psychologist--6020549/support.
Dana Anderson is joined by defense attorney Alex King to unpack the case of Jacksonville lawyer Nathan Williams—arrested in January 2025 for allegedly smuggling drug-laced documents into the Duval County Jail. Authorities say Williams conspired with inmates and their families to sneak in synthetic marijuana, known as K2 or Spice, in exchange for money. His arrest was part of "Operation Stamp Collection," a crackdown that significantly reduced inmate overdoses.
Linked to erratic behavior, overdoses, and sudden death, “paper dope” is volatile by design—each hit a chemical wildcard. What exactly is it? How is it made? And what happens when the defense becomes the defendant?
Alex King breaks down the drug, the charges, and the ethical fallout—plus a look at Dr. John W. Huffman, the scientist whose research compound JWH-018 was hijacked for street use. Think Walter White—but legal mail edition.
📌 Connect with Alex King: https://www.jaxcriminal.com/about-us/alex-king
🧠 Need a Killer Psychologist? http://www.psychologydr.com
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Case
02:00 Understanding the Smuggling Mechanism
05:57 Security Concerns in Jails
07:01 The Role of Attorneys in Drug Smuggling
11:53 Financial Pressures and Ethical Dilemmas
12:18 White Collar Crime Dynamics
16:12 Chemical Composition of Synthetic Drugs
19:32 Impact of Drug Smuggling on Jail Protocols
21:31 Understanding K2 and Spice
24:02 The Dangers of Misinformation
27:30 Educating the Youth on Drug Risks
30:20 The Dangers of Synthetic Drugs
33:45 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/killer-psychologist--6020549/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Killer Psychologist. I'm Dana Anderson, a forensic psychologist and.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Your host of the show.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Killer Psychologist is for true crime fanatics and anyone intrigued
with the dark side of psychology. Welcome to Killer Psychologists.
Today we're unpacking a Florida attorney, a gelhouse smuggling scheme,
and a drug known as paper dope, a chemical blend
(00:32):
of synthetic marijuana sprayed on paper and slipped into gel
disguised as legal documents. Joining me is Powerhouse Defense attorney
Alex King to dissect the charges against Nathan Williams, an
attorney accused of crossing the line from defending clients to
(00:56):
delivering contraband. Interestingly, Williams first landed on the radar during
Operations Stamp Collection, a sweeping investigation launched by Jacksonville Sheriff's
Office in response to a surge in inmate overdoses. The
(01:17):
initiative targeted synthetic drug smuggling in the GEL, resulting in
a total of twenty one arrest and a reported sixty
one percent drop in overdoses from twenty three overdoses in
twenty twenty three to just nine in twenty twenty four.
So we're going to break down the chemistry this criminal
(01:41):
case and how a lab created research compound morphed into
a high risk drug behind bars, Alex. How does an
attorney go from filing motions to allegedly moving dope behind bars?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Well, it's the way most people commit crimes. It's you
have to have a means, mode of an opportunity, and
you know with any criminal offense, that's how it works.
So you know, motive is pretty clear. The allegations are
that he was getting paid to bring the drugs in.
The means is the part that's unique to the attorneys.
So you know, most people, and it's different from jail
(02:21):
to jail, from county to county, from state to state,
but for most jails there's pretty limited access to inmates,
particularly in pre trial detention facilities around the country. Attorneys
have to be able to talk to their clients, they
have to be able to review documents, they have to
be able to review videos, and so typically in most
cases there's certain privileges that attorneys have that other people
(02:41):
don't have, so they can get in there and do
their jobs and represent people. And that's certainly where the
opportunity comes from. Is in our local jail. It used
to be before COVID. You know, anybody could meet with somebody,
but there's a plexiglass divider. It was controlled calls. There
was a physical barrier with plexiglass between people. But for
the attorneys, there's just a room where you go and
(03:03):
you meet with people and you go through documents. I've
done it, most attorneys that I know have done it.
And the opportunity is there for attorneys to do this.
And I wish I could say this is the only
time something like this has happened, but we've had this
happen in Florida before. And you know, when when attorneys
make those choices, they have the opportunity to do things
that you know, members the general public don't have.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Do you think this kind of smuggling operation is more
much more common than we think of in gels and prisons.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
I think there's a lot of thought to it. I mean,
you know, I was, you know, we're kind of talking
about this, and I was thinking to myself, you know,
have I ever had somebody who's tried to say, hey,
can you bring them this? Can you bring them that?
And I've had people say, oh, can you bring them this? Letter,
I've said, Nope, that's not how we do it. You know,
if you want to email me something, I'll print it
off and bring a copy. But for most attorneys, it's
(03:54):
it's not uncommon to certainly have that opportunity, given kind
of the access that we have and prisons and other
secure facilities throughout the states, so that we could do
our jobs and help people that need help. But it
would not surprise me if this was more common than
people think. I think people be shocked to know how
common it is for drugs and other contraband to be
(04:14):
introduced into jails on a regular base. Like I said,
you know, twenty three people with overdoses in a calendar
year in twenty twenty three in Jacksonville. That's a lot
of people in what is supposed to be a secure
detention facility where nobody else is able to come and
go except for guards and people who've been searched repeatedly
on their way in.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, keyword secure. Now I go into gels and just
like you, I'm a professional visitor, and it's very interesting.
I've been in a lot of different facilities, a lot
of different county jails, and the procedures are very different
in each location. In fact, there's one location I won't
(04:57):
name it, but there's like no security check for me.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
They just let me in.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
They've never checked my briefcase. And I will go in
and they leave me unattended with an inmate in a
room and there's no security.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
It's me.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
I set the room up with the table between us
and me accessible to the wall to buzz, and it's
not a good situation. I find it incredulous that there
is such a lack of security in some of these environments.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Well, and it's funny because I've had the exact same experience.
In some places, it's very thorough. In some places it's
not existed. And I imagine the thought that has gone
through my mind has gone through your mind, which is,
neither of us are going to be smuggling drugs in.
But if this person has a mental health episode or
a breakdown, or I give them bad news, how do
I get somebody's attention because we're in a private room.
(05:50):
And frankly, I have had that thought and concern a
lot more than I've thought. You know, how do I
smuggle drugs into this place? Yeah? Different than some people,
but that's always been a thought of mine is, you know,
sometimes these are people who are going through a lot
and even on their best day, might be some pretty
dangerous people. And you know, I worry about my own safety.
I worry about you know, colleague safety, things like that.
(06:11):
And you know, the security in terms of searching me
or searching you on your way in. It's kind of
the same issue as somebody kind of keeping an eye
out to make sure that me and you are okay.
And that thought has definitely crossed my mind, probably more
so the first time I started going into facilities like that.
You kind of get used to it over time, but
you know, always a concern is security not just for
contraband bring brought in, but you know, for interactions and
(06:32):
things like that.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, and these interactions, So what I just described a
room where there's no recording or it's not monitored or
supervised or whatever verbal exchange is happening between us, Like
you know, what is happening in these attorney client relationships
where how does one get into this situation? So we
(06:59):
don't know in this case, if you know, inmates were
threatening this attorney, you know, or allegedly so to bring
them contraband or like how does this conversation come up?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Like how long had this been going on?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
It sounds like there's multiple players involved or correctional officers,
and I know you and I talked earlier like correctional officers,
it's not uncommon in my experience in prison.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
And then now we have an attorney.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
So yeah, that we talked about means we talked about opportunity,
but that there's motive. And the reason corrections officers tend
to be a little easier is they're underpaid for the
type of job they're doing. And for a lot of attorneys.
You know, when you look at TV, when you look
at pop culture media accounts of attorneys, everybody thinks the
attorneys making you know, a million dollars a year and
(07:49):
they're all very financially successful. The reality is is not
that pretty interesting. There's the really successful attorneys, and then
there's the attorneys that are making significantly less money, and
there's almost more of a gap in the middle there.
It's kind of bimodal. So you'll have a ton of
attorneys making you know, lower wages for people who you know,
with that level of education, and some attorneys that are
(08:10):
wildly successful and not as much in between. You know,
I still tell people, you know, when I start off
as an assistant state attorney, my brother was teaching at
the local high school, working you know, summers off and
not quite the number of hours, I'll put it that way,
and he was making more than I was, and I
was working seventy five eighty hours a week. So for
a lot of attorneys, there are some attorneys that do
(08:31):
very well. There's some attorneys that are very successful, but
that is certainly not all of them, And there's a
lot of attorneys that are kind of financially struggling. When
we look through some of the allegations and the police reports,
it appears that there was a financial transaction that took place,
you know, for several thousand dollars. That appears to be
the motive, at least that's what's heavily implied by the
investigating officers and the police reports that we do have available. So,
(08:54):
you know, for a crime, you need the means, mode
of an opportunity. It's it's really all three and the
motive for let me put it this way, there's some
attorneys that the idea of taking a couple thousand dollars
to potentially ruin their careers, lose their law license, you know,
have felony charges. It'd be preposterous for others, it's it's
not as big of a step.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Well, you know, as a forensic psychologist, I encounter these
same types of scenarios as well. Actually, people try to
bribe me in different ways and.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Do the amount of work.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
It gets to you to become licensed in your profession. Like,
there's nothing I would do to ever give that up
or ever risk it. There's never any interest. It's totally
out of the question. And we can talk about red
flags that maybe attorneys should look for when they take clients,
But how did he get.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Himself in this situation?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Like, would you take this guy's case if you had
the opportunity.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
I have taken cases of people that have done some
bad things. That's part of my job. Probably not shocking
to you. A lot of my clients did what they're
accused of doing, and it's just a matter of making
sure they're treated fairly, making sure you know, they're getting
the best defense and representation possible. So I probably would
not take this case personally, just because my involvement would
stay attorneys off the sheriff's office and the courts and
(10:16):
kind of what it means for the profession. But you know,
just based on the charge alone, you know, that wouldn't
be an issue. And you kind of mentioned red flags
for attorneys to be looking for for clients. I really
think it's almost the flip side of that's more important,
is what are the red flags people who are potentially
clients of an attorney need to be looking for when
they're dealing with, you know, professionals. And there's a lot
(10:36):
of attorneys I know that could be approached and there's
not a dollar amount that they would ever even consider
something like this. And I think that's probably for the
vast majority. You know, same probably for corrections officers, the
vast majority and what not. Do that same for police
officers and people who have public influence and the trust
of the public and their position. And you know, if
you're a potential client of somebody, what are the things
(10:57):
you need to really be looking out for in terms of,
you know, this attorney may not be all they're cracked
up to be, just in terms of their professionalism and
their willing to use things. And you know, depending on
the person that may be the exact attorney you're looking
for if you're trying to smuggle drugs into a jail.
But it definitely raises a lot of red flags. And
you know, we see certain patterns with attorneys like we
do other professionals, just in terms of the pressure that
(11:19):
they work under, the stress levels, the financial pressures ego
is unfortunately a big one with a lot of people.
And you know, what are the things that you know,
potential clients can look for when trying to assess an attorney,
and you know, those are all big red flags for me,
is those kind of financial motivations. People who seem just
(11:40):
concerned about making money, don't take pride in their work,
don't take care about the job they do and their
professional stature and their place in the professional community, are
the ones that are going to be more motivated incentivized
to do stuff like this.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Well, you work on white collar criminal cases as well,
so maybe you see some common themes and the type
of things that motivate people who get into these who
are professionals who kind of cross the line into embezzling
or getting involved in these types of criminal acts.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Yeah, and I'll tell you in the case of white
collar crimes that we look at there's in my mind
there's kind of two different categories of white collar criminals.
One is the professional white collar criminal and the other
is the opportunistic white collar criminals. So your professional white
collar criminal. I see a lot of these in federal
cases where there is kind of a scam of the
(12:39):
I say, of the month, but it usually every two
three years a new big scam comes along, and these
guys will go from scam to scam to scam. You know,
I see a lot of healthcare frauds. So in healthcare fraud,
these are scams where people are trying to take a
government program Medicare, Medicaid, Trycare in the case of military veterans,
(13:01):
and scam as much money as they can from the government.
And over the years we have seen different scams that
start to slowly grow. The professional scammers catch wind of it,
they all jump on board, make a bunch of money.
If some of them get caught and take it off
to prison, the rest of them wait for basically the
scam to quit working, and then they move on to
(13:24):
the next scam. So, you know, there was issues with
Durbal medical goods and then we saw that go into
the big one ten years ago was compounding pharmaceuticals in
the VA, and essentially they were able to get fifteen
or twenty thousand dollars a month from the Veterans Administration
for vitamin creams with a little pain cream in them
(13:46):
because of the way they were billed. And they would
hire doctors to do fake medical reports or telehealth consulting
without really doing any medical consulting. They would recruit people
to dig in to try to these people down. They
were literally outside a military basis trying to recruit people. Hey,
if you call this doctor and get this prescription sent
(14:06):
to you, I'll give you five hundred dollars a month.
I'll give you a thousand dollars a month. And then
they were pocketing millions and millions of dollars in the
federal government caught wise, they shut it down, and then
it moved on to other things. We've had it with
COVID testing and medic care patients. We've had it with
genetic testing and Medicare patients. That's starting to get cut
down on, but there's always kind of another scheme that
(14:28):
those guys are looking for. And they all talk to
each other and they all kind of know each other
it's a community and they bounce around from scheme to scheme,
and unfortunately the federal authorities it's kind of playing whack
a mole trying to track them down. So that's kind
of one category. The second category is professionals who wind
up a lot of times there's pressure from kind of
(14:52):
that first category to do things that they may otherwise do,
to do things that where they're given opportunity and convinced
of things. So, you know, when the compounding pharmaceutical is big,
we represented I would say some people that were definitely
in that first bucket that were kind of professional schemers
and moved on to other things with the ones that
(15:13):
didn't get in trouble and the other ones, you know,
got in trouble. And then the second category is pharmacists
in this case who didn't really understand what was going
on and then would get kind of sold a bill
of goods by that first bucket of people. And you know,
people who otherwise have worked very hard for their professional careers,
they take their job seriously, get kind of roped in
(15:34):
with that that first bucket of people, and then when
they're done with them, they move on to the companies
that do genetic testing or the companies that do COVID
testing or the you know, any of those other different
areas that we see.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah, this is so interesting. I started looking at how
to make paper dope and kind of getting back into
the chemical compound and how it's shipped here and how
it you know, how it's composed and comes together, and
how people get a hold of it, and kind of
like you're saying, so there's there's actual chemical companies that
(16:07):
can disguise this in other products to move it.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Oh yeah, right, Well it's interesting because you hear the
name of the operations like operations stamp collecting or you
know stamp and you say, you know, that's a that's
a very odd name. Why would they name it that?
And the reason is they can take these giant pieces
of paper, cover them in drugs, and then they sell
them in The individual doses are basically the size of
a postage stamp. So that's where that term comes from,
(16:34):
is that's the dosing that they're actually giving out. So
you know, the allegations in this case that we're talking about,
we're eight and a half eleven piece of paper, but
you know they're cut up into the smaller doses and
then they're traded like currency like you used to you know,
like hear in TV and movies like, oh, they're using
this for currency, and that's exactly what it is. But
this has been something in terms of these liquid chemicals
(16:55):
and chemical analogs that has been going on for a
long time. And you know, we were talking a little
about how the federal government playing whack and role with
healthcare fraud. The DEA and the federal government is also
playing whack and mole with illegal drugs. You know, the
synthetic marijuanas. There's a doctor for at the University of
Clemson who I think it was like thirty years ago
(17:17):
at this point, started coming up with, you know, some
of doing legitimate research about thirty years ago, started doing
testing on cannabinoid receptors and how it worked in the body.
They created over I think four hundred compounds, and then
drug dealers that started off in Germany and quickly made
it what's way over here, realized that oh we can
kind of manufacture these go through this research steel. None
of it's been tested for human consumption, toxicity, side effects, lethality,
(17:41):
none of it's been tested, but it'll have the same
impact on people that you know, marijuana will or similar drugs,
and they will. They just started getting these chemicals together
and sprang it over, you know, pieces of organic matter,
leaves or whatever they could find that spice K two.
Thing that we have going on and now they've kind
(18:02):
of take that to the next level is Okay, we
have drugs. How do we get them in a jail?
If my attorney walks in with a bag of white powder,
that's going to be pretty obvious. And oh well, there's
legal paperwork. So we have legal paperwork, and we exchange
legal paperwork, and I've given people plenty of documents. You know, hey,
here's a report. Read this. Hey, you know, here's a statement.
We've been discussing with you over the phone. Take a
(18:22):
look at this. Get us your notes. You know, that's
a very common thing. And okay, well we exchange paperwork
and that's a normal thing. Nobody says anything about it.
How do we get drugs into a jail or a prison.
It's like, okay, we have a piece of papers, that's
the mechanism, and then how do we do it? And
it's we either spray or soak it in the drugs
and We've had other cases in Florida where people have
(18:44):
soaked cocaine laced paper and brought it into a jail.
There was an attorney a few years back. They busted
him with I think twenty seven pieces of paper. They're
all completely laced in cocaine. And then the innates would
get it and put it in the water, let it
soak out, and they would drink it, or they could
potentially smoke it if they had the ability to light
a fire.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Wow, it seems like some of the security protocols for
jail are going to have to be changed to prevent
this from happening if it's so prevalent. I just recently
talked to a psychiatrist who works in a federal prison,
and the first thing he told me was about the
(19:26):
same epidemic that we're talking about, And so maybe it's
much more prevalent that we're seeing. And how do you
think this is going to affect the protocols for just
professional visits?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Well, you know, I can tell you the jail intelligence
unit here in Jacksonville kind of figured out what was
going on because they'd find a piece of paper. They
didn't know how it was coming in. They didn't know
what was going on, but they realized professional visits maybe
how it was happening. And so what they've started doing
is if I want to bring somebody paperwork, they will
take it, they will make a copy, they will destroy
(20:02):
the original and give the person the copy. Obviously there's
concerns about that from the attorney side. Is I'm trying
to communicate with somebody who's in custody about a criminal matter,
where the same sheriff's office that has investigated them or
prosecuting them is also the one who is now scanning
copies and taking their paperwork that may be sensitive and
(20:23):
have information about other officers. And it's tough to find
a balance between, you know, making sure we're keeping sacrosanc
that attorney client privilege and making sure people are getting
represented the best way and making sure peoplen't get killed
in the jail overdosing on drugs that are being smuggled
in by unscriptious attorneys'. It's a not an envious position
to be in to try to weigh those two because
(20:44):
it's tough.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
So what do people need to know about K two
or spice? You know, we're calling it paper dope, they're all,
you know, we see it sold in like spice, you know,
putting nice little colored packages like a tattoo shops places
like that, spe and making it seem so appilling or harmless.
(21:11):
It seems to be so prevalent that people are using it,
But I don't know that people really understand the chemical
component or the side effects of it, or what it
really is. It just seems it even says not for
human consumptions. That's my first red flag there.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Well, it says that as a way to get around
regulators and law enforcement, but not that that's very effective.
But you know, and unfortunately, it's gotten to the point
where drugs aren't the drugs that people think they're getting.
And if you purchase something like this, you have no
idea where it's coming from, You have no idea what's
in it, You have no idea, And you know, candidly,
(21:52):
the ten people that have touched it before it makes
it to that store, maybe one or two of those
ten care about what happens to you. But it seems unlikely,
you know, and it goes through so many hands you
get people who really don't they're not worried they're going
to get sued if you overdose or die or something
like that. But oh, we put not for human consumption
in this business will be open and shot within a
(22:13):
year and on everybody will be onto something else. So
they just don't care. And that's crewe not only for
the K two in the space, but for a lot
of the street drugs we're seeing. I was talking to
an agent with the Federal Law Enforcement and Narcotics of
the drugs in our area. People think they're getting cocaine.
Almost ninety percent of it has ventanyl in some form
(22:34):
or another in it. People think they're doing one thing
and they're doing another thing. And the number of accidental
homicides and accidental overdose deaths is skyrocketing. Thankfully due to
Narcan and things like that. Where there's medical interventions, they're
becoming less fatal. But we're not having any fewer overdose deaths.
(22:54):
I represent a woman who she was with a male
friend for another friend. They thought they were doing some
drugs and they were given fentanyl. They had no never
used fentanyl, they didn't want to use ventanyl. She overdosed
and almost died. He actually passed away. The person who
sold it to him. They're they're prosecuting him for a
murder now. And unfortunately, that's the story I hear time
(23:14):
and time again, is people think they're doing one thing
and they wind up in a you know, in a
life threatening situation by putting things in their body they
really don't understand and probably not shocking to you, doctor Anderson,
but drug dealers don't spend a lot of time worrying
about the drugs they're they're selling to people and you know,
if they're safe or not. And they wouldn't know anyway,
because by the time it makes it to somebody who's
(23:36):
using it, it's been through five, six, seven, eight, sometimes
even more.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Hands. Yeah, I can't caution people enough. I work in
the psych hospital for four years, so I saw thousands
of people being admitted psychiatrically. Most of them had had
or had a positive talk screen with at least a
couple of different drugs, sometimes five or six or but
we could we could be So I always would have
(24:04):
conversations with people about how, you know, how close they
came to death or overdosing or dying like, and how
people's decision tree on, how where they get their drugs,
how they consume it, why they do it, and it's
so much like Russian roulette. They're just taking this huge risk.
You have no idea what it is you're actually consuming.
(24:27):
And so many many times a lot of them didn't
intend to consume whatever was put in their body or
had it's mixed with other things or tons of fentyl use.
People end up getting addicted to that. Just the level
of trust or the trust, but like to put something
in your body, do you have no idea what it
(24:50):
actually is.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
It's just shocking.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
There's a trend that we saw a few years back
when overdose desk started becoming a lot more prevalent and
people are becoming a lot more concerned. Drug dealers were
starting to use dyes and things like that to tell people, hey,
this is the same drug you've had before, so you know,
for a lot of MDMA, molly, ecstasy, you know, those
types of kind of party drugs. For lack of a description,
(25:18):
you know, I'd see a lot of media reports and
some people say, oh, they're trying to make it look
like candy, and it's like, that's really not what they're doing.
They're trying to make it look like a distinct product
so that they can keep selling it. To people and
they say, oh, I've tried this before. I didn't have
a bad experience. I didn't get hurt. And it was
actually for business purposes. It was not to trick children
(25:38):
into taking drugs. It was to get drug users to
feel more comfortable that they were not going to OD
or they were going to get something different than they
were used to. And you know, with those types of drugs,
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but they
will they actually get pill presses and they make their
own pills. A lot of times the pills don't necessarily
come in as pills from you know, China and Mexico
are obviously the big ones in the news and that
(26:00):
is where a lot of it comes in. But they
will get the kind of the wholesale powders and things
like that and get pill press and make their own pills,
and some of them we saw it here locally and
around kind of the southeast United States, where you know,
drug dealers were trying to make their products unique so
that people would be more comfortable using them so they
weren't worried that they were going to OD. And you know,
(26:21):
just like any any marketing that you see on TV
or the internet, trying to inspire brand loyalty and things
like that.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Ran loyalty. Okay, oh wow.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
It's something else, but that's, you know, kind of And
I've talked to people who were doing that, and that
is exactly what they told me, people who were accused
and some convicted of doing exactly that. And that was
how they explained it to me, is you know this,
You know this way. People know that this is from us,
and it's good stuff where it's coming from, and they'll
buy more of it, and you know, like any business,
(26:55):
they're trying to sell more product. It's horrible to think
about that way, but that's how some of these people.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Think so dangerous.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
So if I had any advice to anyone out there, parent,
talk to your kids about drugs, talk about drugs, educate
them before someone else does. I've talked to my kids
a lot about drugs, and I do have a teenager.
He probably knows way too much about drugs. He actually
(27:22):
was in boy Scout and like taught some drug classes
for a while.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
It is kind of funny, but like, educate.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yourself whoever you are, just know the risks. I think
there's a lot of misinformation even just with marijuana use,
people thinking it to a much more friendlier drug, or
but you don't know who you're getting it from, you
don't know what's in it, you don't know the percentage
of THHC. Like how these transactions happen, and this is
(27:48):
how overdoses occur, and just simply in exchange of someone
taking something and telling you what it is and you
consuming it and it's something else or laced with something else.
So something I've seen that I think there's a lot
of misinformation about And you can comment on this, but
I see a lot of adolescents using marijuana, like starting
(28:15):
at a young age high amounts of THHC and having
psychotic breaks and becoming psychotic or developing schizophrenia or committing crimes,
and you know, I see them in juvenile hall now
they're charged with a serious crime like murder, okay, even
(28:37):
under just the influence of marijuana, and their family crying
with me, or the defendant crying with me and wanting
to change everything. And I've talking with the mom, talking
with the dad, talking with their child, and like how
there was misinformation about marijuana or why they consumed it,
(28:57):
or even having the parents sometimes buy this for their
child and thinking it's going to help. There's just it's
such a dangerous So people, if you were going to
buy something, you could buy something from the dispensary and
it should tell you the percentage of THHC on the back,
like if it's right. So, but your drug dealer on
(29:20):
speed dial isn't going to have that on the packaging exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Well, and we're seeing that with kind of marijuana related products,
whether it's the oils or the waxes or you know,
some of the other things, were even some of the
edible things where people think it's going to be one
thing and it turns into a whole different thing and
they wind up getting Thankfully, with marijuana, we don't have
the same issues where you know, people stop breathing. They're
hard stopped to anywhere near the level we have with opioids.
(29:47):
But it you know, some people have some horrible reactions
and you know, kind of going back to the spice
and the K two is people were having some real
psychological reactions with that, and you know, people saying, oh, well,
it's like a marijuana how does this happen happening that's
not a normal thing. To happen with marijuana. It's like,
this isn't like marijuana. This is a chemical that was
created in a lab and tested by nobody, and nobody
(30:09):
really knows what this does to you other than part
of the thing that it does to you is attached
to the same receptors that marijuana does and gives you
some of the same feelings marijuana. What the rest of
it does and the toxicity, and you know, nobody has
any idea because nobody tested for it, because this wasn't
a medication. This wasn't something that was you know, put
through the rigors of kind of the scientific process. This
was research, academic research done on cannabinoid receptors in the nineties.
(30:33):
And now all of a sudden is getting sprayed on
you know, grass clippings that they're finding outside of their
you know, their warehouse, you know, fifteen twenty years later.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Tested by nobody. I mean, just that's going to be
a no for me. And you don't know what will happen.
It could only take once. And I've seen patients admitted
using spice and they're very psychotic, and it's just it's
had a very strange reaction. And while some people can
(31:03):
say they've consumed it and not have that reaction, but
you keep using it, and at at what point could
it cause a reaction in you and it's irreversible, Like,
is that a risk you're willing to take?
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Well, again, we're also never going to smuggle drugs into
a jail. We might be a little different than some people,
but no, it definitely goes to that. And with this
kind of whack a mole that we see with you DA.
So when kind of the K two first came out,
these were all synthetic drugs that it had been really
not seen outside of a lab at Clemson University. In
fifteen years, they start popping up in Germany. They're not outlawed,
(31:39):
they're not scheduled because nobody's made them, nobody's tested. They're
they're the existence and academic papers. And the next thing
you know, they're popping up in gas stations and headshops
and you know, all these places and people are getting sick.
The people who were creating it have certainly done no
testing sufficient to you know, know what's an appropriate dosage
or how to administer it. They don't care. And you know,
(32:01):
we've seen that kind of shift to other drugs. As
time has ticked on the next one that, yeah, I'm
sure we'll start seeing about in the news, because I'm
starting to see it already, or what we call substitute cathinins,
which is if you're familiar with kot, which is a
it's some leaves that are chewed. It's it's popular in
some African cultures. It produces like a stimulant effect substitute cathinones.
(32:25):
We're starting to see testing for cocaine and fentanyl come
up with a lot more substitute cathinins. They have pretty
serious stimulant effects, they can make them cheaper, and we're
starting to see them cutting cocaine and fentanyl with the
substitute cathinons. And I think that's something we're going to
be hearing in the news over the next two three
four years as probably a lot more common. And then
(32:46):
when law enforcement figures out how to you know, stop
that train from running. I don't know what the one
is going to be after that, but I suspect that's
going to be the next big one.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah, thank you for sharing all this information, and yeah,
you're right there in Florida.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
So yeah, like I said, if anybody takes anything from this,
it's you know, be careful what you put in your
body because you really just have no idea. And you know,
it's funny, there's I've talked to people who sell drugs
for a living that do not They have no idea
what they're actually selling until we get these lat tests back,
and its stuff they've never heard of. They have no idea,
(33:23):
and unfortunately, people are dying and getting hurt, and it's
it's it's really important, and it's getting into our jails,
it's getting into our schools. It's just unfortunate. And you
know this case we were talking about where you have
an attorney as part of it, and it's not the
first time. It's just people, you know, people who want
money and people who don't think through the consequences their actions.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
You know, it only takes one time, one hit, one time,
that's all it takes. I can tell you stories of
just like fairly innocent people that found their way into
a situation, but it's changed their mental health forever. And
there are some disorders that are irreversible. So I just
(34:08):
I caution so many people, and I've I talk to
people to use drugs all the time. So it's you know,
I'm not so naive about it, but people who you
know in the hospital, they have just thought, you know,
they were depressed or had anxiety, or just thought it
could help them go to sleep, or just whatever the
(34:29):
reason they take something. I would just never trust anyone
that's any drug of any kind. Like, just be so
cautious of what you put in your body, even anyone
handing you anything, like you may never be able to
come back with that. Like, just recognize if you're in
an emotionally vulnerable space.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
So whether it's.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Depression or whatever it is, right you just you want
to get high.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Just protect yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
You know, drug dealers on speed dial aren't pharmacists, They're
not doctors. Okay, so you actually can go see a
real you know, psychiatrist or someone if you were struggling
with certain symptoms. And actually the job of an actual psychiatrist,
(35:21):
right is they have to actually go over the medication name.
And I assisted a psychiatrist for many years, and I
would the medication name, the side effects, we would watch
an informational video together, we would educate them. Like I
would spent a great deal educating patients about the pros
and cons of this medication, what it could do for you.
(35:43):
We'd take it, starts in a small dose, tie trade up.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Observe, monitor all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
So you can book an appointment with a psychiatrist and
get actual prescriptions, and you can actually actually do genetic
testing and you can see what medication is best for
your body, because typically the average person goes through like
seven wrong trials of meds for they get the right
medication for them. That's so you can now technology has change.
(36:13):
You can do genetic testing and you can determine like
which medications would be best for you or which ones
not to trial. So there's so much information and there's
misinformation about psychiatry or psychologists or what we do. But
like people are self medicating on drugs, and I try
to provide education on other options for people to feel
(36:35):
better and not you know, because the number one thing
I see all day every day is substance use. And
people are actually suffering. They are dying, they are hurting,
they are going through withdraws, they're not well. There's nothing
good that becoming addicted to drugs brings.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
This probably isn't shocking to you, but the intersection of
mental health and you know, whether it's alcohol or controlled substances.
That's how I spend most of my day too, That's
the bulk of the time that we spend. It's, you know,
the intersection of mental health substance abuse, and you know,
ultimately trying to in a lot of ways help people
deal with those things. But kind of back to what
(37:14):
you were saying, you know, the difference between seeing a
psychiatrist who can prescribe medication mantra is those have been tested,
we know what the side effects are. The people who
are selling these drugs and making them up as they
go along or pulling them out of research from fifteen
years earlier. They're looking to make money and sell a product.
They have no idea what they're doing, and it is
(37:36):
just unbelievably dangerous. And the way we find out how
bad and how dangerous is for people who essentially volunteer
to be the guinea pigs and then we realize five
years down the road, ten years down the road they
have permanent psychological, physical, mental health damage. And they're like, well,
I didn't know, and it's like, well, yeah, you took
something that somebody made up in a lab, possibly in
(37:58):
another country, that had been tested on no and we're
just hoping it went well. And nobody who sold this
to your care And if you're expecting them the care,
I don't know why you would.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
And if for anyone that's like, oh, I hate big pharma,
you know what I do in my job as a psychologist,
I test people psychological testing to see whether if they
actually have an actual diagnosis, and then we come up
with a plan for them, so whether they need an
you know, an antipsychotic or rite, whether an SSRI would
(38:33):
be inappropriate or whatever. There's certain meds you shouldn't take
with certain disorders and can cause them to be more symptomatic.
So anybody that's out there that's suffering or not sure
what to do, like you can get an evaluation, get
appropriate diagnosis, an appropriate plan for meds, and when you
are honest with your healthcare provider and you talk about
(38:54):
your symptoms, you can actually get relief and feel better
and get manage your mental health. And for anyone that's
already like somewhat addicted to meds, because most people I
see are they are taking things that they aren't telling
their doctor about and they are trying to feel better.
(39:16):
But I would just encourage anyone to get a mental
health evaluation sooner rather than later, and say, you don't
find yourself at a point of no return. So like
the people sometimes I see, they are telling me they
can't return. They're so far down the road of being
(39:37):
addicted to fentl or in a life of crime, just
supporting that, and they are not interested in help. They've
gone very down down that path, and they'll explain to
me how they got there.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
So I always try to help people wherever they're at.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
But like, if wherever you're at, like it's not too
late to like change your direction and actually get good
mental health help because the side effect is overdose or death.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Well, and kind of back to what you were saying,
is you know and I hear that too. It I
get it in terms of you know, prescription medications, big pharma,
I understand that. But the solution to that is not, hey,
I'm gonna I got this from a gas station, so
it must be safe. That's just not how it works.
You know, At a minimum, if you're going to be
putting something in your body needs to be something that's
been tested as thoroughly as it can. You need to
(40:24):
be monitored by professional. It needs to be administered in
the correct way. There needs to be some sort of
research done before you put it in your body, what
it does to people short term and long term. And
because we see these drug dealers, for lack of a
better description, trying to stay one step ahead of the
Controlled Substances Act because if it's not on that list,
then you can you can sell it, And so we'll
(40:46):
just keep coming up with new drugs that haven't been tested.
Haven't you know, nothing's been done to make sure that
this isn't going to wind up people just dropping dead
in five years. That's definitely not the answer, don't you know.
It's like saying, well, I don't like to have, you know,
sugary food, so instead of eating here, I'm just going
to go into the woods and grab whatever berries and
mushrooms and things and start eating them. It's that's probably
(41:07):
not going to end well for you if you don't
know what you're putting into your body and just guessing
at it is such a so much more dangerous thing.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Absolutely, And the guy at the tattoo shop, the guy
at the gas station, they're not a psychiatrist. They don't
have a doctorate degree. I know, I know, I know,
so like I wouldn't rely on just what anyone says.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
You could do your research.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
You can even use chatchept like you can get educated
on the side effects of drugs. Don't trust your drug
dealer on speed dial. Stay away from these drugs. Oh
my goodness, Alex King, thank you so much for educating
us today.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
I would love to have you back.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
And yeah, tell our listeners if they need an attorney,
you know where they can find you at. And I
know your license in Florida.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
Yes, so re lives of Florida. I will say. The
best way to not need me is to don't do
anything where you will need me. And it's funny. I
talk to people and I'm always I always tell them
it's like I don't want repeat business, you know, kind
of like you know in your field. It's you know,
our goal is to get people better and get them fixed.
I don't like getting repeat calls or repeat customers. I say,
send me a Christmas card, send me some well wishes
(42:25):
at the New Year, but I don't want to hear
from you again. We want to make sure that we're
figuring out whatever's going into your life that led you there,
but yeah, we're we are from located in Jacksonville, Florida,
kind of handle all northeast Florida, so for federal cases
we travel a fair a bit for that and our
website is a Jax Criminal That's JX dot com. You
(42:45):
find out more information there.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Okay, Alex, wonderful speaking with you today.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Thank you so much, a complete pleasure. Thank you so
much for having me.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Thank you for listening to Killer Psychologist. To watch fool
episodes or if you want to interact with me, you
can find Killer Psychologists on YouTube. You can also get
notified of new episodes by signing up in my stand store. Now,
if you want to work with me, you can book
a console. My website is psychologydoctor dot com. That's psychology
(43:21):
dr dot com.
Welcome to Killer Psychologist. I'm Dana Anderson, a forensic psychologist and.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Your host of the show.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Killer Psychologist is for true crime fanatics and anyone intrigued
with the dark side of psychology. Welcome to Killer Psychologists.
Today we're unpacking a Florida attorney, a gelhouse smuggling scheme,
and a drug known as paper dope, a chemical blend
(00:32):
of synthetic marijuana sprayed on paper and slipped into gel
disguised as legal documents. Joining me is Powerhouse Defense attorney
Alex King to dissect the charges against Nathan Williams, an
attorney accused of crossing the line from defending clients to
(00:56):
delivering contraband. Interestingly, Williams first landed on the radar during
Operations Stamp Collection, a sweeping investigation launched by Jacksonville Sheriff's
Office in response to a surge in inmate overdoses. The
(01:17):
initiative targeted synthetic drug smuggling in the GEL, resulting in
a total of twenty one arrest and a reported sixty
one percent drop in overdoses from twenty three overdoses in
twenty twenty three to just nine in twenty twenty four.
So we're going to break down the chemistry this criminal
(01:41):
case and how a lab created research compound morphed into
a high risk drug behind bars, Alex. How does an
attorney go from filing motions to allegedly moving dope behind bars?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Well, it's the way most people commit crimes. It's you
have to have a means, mode of an opportunity, and
you know with any criminal offense, that's how it works.
So you know, motive is pretty clear. The allegations are
that he was getting paid to bring the drugs in.
The means is the part that's unique to the attorneys.
So you know, most people, and it's different from jail
(02:21):
to jail, from county to county, from state to state,
but for most jails there's pretty limited access to inmates,
particularly in pre trial detention facilities around the country. Attorneys
have to be able to talk to their clients, they
have to be able to review documents, they have to
be able to review videos, and so typically in most
cases there's certain privileges that attorneys have that other people
(02:41):
don't have, so they can get in there and do
their jobs and represent people. And that's certainly where the
opportunity comes from. Is in our local jail. It used
to be before COVID. You know, anybody could meet with somebody,
but there's a plexiglass divider. It was controlled calls. There
was a physical barrier with plexiglass between people. But for
the attorneys, there's just a room where you go and
(03:03):
you meet with people and you go through documents. I've
done it, most attorneys that I know have done it.
And the opportunity is there for attorneys to do this.
And I wish I could say this is the only
time something like this has happened, but we've had this
happen in Florida before. And you know, when when attorneys
make those choices, they have the opportunity to do things
that you know, members the general public don't have.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Do you think this kind of smuggling operation is more
much more common than we think of in gels and prisons.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
I think there's a lot of thought to it. I mean,
you know, I was, you know, we're kind of talking
about this, and I was thinking to myself, you know,
have I ever had somebody who's tried to say, hey,
can you bring them this? Can you bring them that?
And I've had people say, oh, can you bring them this? Letter,
I've said, Nope, that's not how we do it. You know,
if you want to email me something, I'll print it
off and bring a copy. But for most attorneys, it's
(03:54):
it's not uncommon to certainly have that opportunity, given kind
of the access that we have and prisons and other
secure facilities throughout the states, so that we could do
our jobs and help people that need help. But it
would not surprise me if this was more common than
people think. I think people be shocked to know how
common it is for drugs and other contraband to be
(04:14):
introduced into jails on a regular base. Like I said,
you know, twenty three people with overdoses in a calendar
year in twenty twenty three in Jacksonville. That's a lot
of people in what is supposed to be a secure
detention facility where nobody else is able to come and
go except for guards and people who've been searched repeatedly
on their way in.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, keyword secure. Now I go into gels and just
like you, I'm a professional visitor, and it's very interesting.
I've been in a lot of different facilities, a lot
of different county jails, and the procedures are very different
in each location. In fact, there's one location I won't
(04:57):
name it, but there's like no security check for me.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
They just let me in.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
They've never checked my briefcase. And I will go in
and they leave me unattended with an inmate in a
room and there's no security.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
It's me.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
I set the room up with the table between us
and me accessible to the wall to buzz, and it's
not a good situation. I find it incredulous that there
is such a lack of security in some of these environments.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Well, and it's funny because I've had the exact same experience.
In some places, it's very thorough. In some places it's
not existed. And I imagine the thought that has gone
through my mind has gone through your mind, which is,
neither of us are going to be smuggling drugs in.
But if this person has a mental health episode or
a breakdown, or I give them bad news, how do
I get somebody's attention because we're in a private room.
(05:50):
And frankly, I have had that thought and concern a
lot more than I've thought. You know, how do I
smuggle drugs into this place? Yeah? Different than some people,
but that's always been a thought of mine is, you know,
sometimes these are people who are going through a lot
and even on their best day, might be some pretty
dangerous people. And you know, I worry about my own safety.
I worry about you know, colleague safety, things like that.
(06:11):
And you know, the security in terms of searching me
or searching you on your way in. It's kind of
the same issue as somebody kind of keeping an eye
out to make sure that me and you are okay.
And that thought has definitely crossed my mind, probably more
so the first time I started going into facilities like that.
You kind of get used to it over time, but
you know, always a concern is security not just for
contraband bring brought in, but you know, for interactions and
(06:32):
things like that.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, and these interactions, So what I just described a
room where there's no recording or it's not monitored or
supervised or whatever verbal exchange is happening between us, Like
you know, what is happening in these attorney client relationships
where how does one get into this situation? So we
(06:59):
don't know in this case, if you know, inmates were
threatening this attorney, you know, or allegedly so to bring
them contraband or like how does this conversation come up?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Like how long had this been going on?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
It sounds like there's multiple players involved or correctional officers,
and I know you and I talked earlier like correctional officers,
it's not uncommon in my experience in prison.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
And then now we have an attorney.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
So yeah, that we talked about means we talked about opportunity,
but that there's motive. And the reason corrections officers tend
to be a little easier is they're underpaid for the
type of job they're doing. And for a lot of attorneys.
You know, when you look at TV, when you look
at pop culture media accounts of attorneys, everybody thinks the
attorneys making you know, a million dollars a year and
(07:49):
they're all very financially successful. The reality is is not
that pretty interesting. There's the really successful attorneys, and then
there's the attorneys that are making significantly less money, and
there's almost more of a gap in the middle there.
It's kind of bimodal. So you'll have a ton of
attorneys making you know, lower wages for people who you know,
with that level of education, and some attorneys that are
(08:10):
wildly successful and not as much in between. You know,
I still tell people, you know, when I start off
as an assistant state attorney, my brother was teaching at
the local high school, working you know, summers off and
not quite the number of hours, I'll put it that way,
and he was making more than I was, and I
was working seventy five eighty hours a week. So for
a lot of attorneys, there are some attorneys that do
(08:31):
very well. There's some attorneys that are very successful, but
that is certainly not all of them, And there's a
lot of attorneys that are kind of financially struggling. When
we look through some of the allegations and the police reports,
it appears that there was a financial transaction that took place,
you know, for several thousand dollars. That appears to be
the motive, at least that's what's heavily implied by the
investigating officers and the police reports that we do have available. So,
(08:54):
you know, for a crime, you need the means, mode
of an opportunity. It's it's really all three and the
motive for let me put it this way, there's some
attorneys that the idea of taking a couple thousand dollars
to potentially ruin their careers, lose their law license, you know,
have felony charges. It'd be preposterous for others, it's it's
not as big of a step.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Well, you know, as a forensic psychologist, I encounter these
same types of scenarios as well. Actually, people try to
bribe me in different ways and.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Do the amount of work.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
It gets to you to become licensed in your profession. Like,
there's nothing I would do to ever give that up
or ever risk it. There's never any interest. It's totally
out of the question. And we can talk about red
flags that maybe attorneys should look for when they take clients,
But how did he get.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Himself in this situation?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Like, would you take this guy's case if you had
the opportunity.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
I have taken cases of people that have done some
bad things. That's part of my job. Probably not shocking
to you. A lot of my clients did what they're
accused of doing, and it's just a matter of making
sure they're treated fairly, making sure you know, they're getting
the best defense and representation possible. So I probably would
not take this case personally, just because my involvement would
stay attorneys off the sheriff's office and the courts and
(10:16):
kind of what it means for the profession. But you know,
just based on the charge alone, you know, that wouldn't
be an issue. And you kind of mentioned red flags
for attorneys to be looking for for clients. I really
think it's almost the flip side of that's more important,
is what are the red flags people who are potentially
clients of an attorney need to be looking for when
they're dealing with, you know, professionals. And there's a lot
(10:36):
of attorneys I know that could be approached and there's
not a dollar amount that they would ever even consider
something like this. And I think that's probably for the
vast majority. You know, same probably for corrections officers, the
vast majority and what not. Do that same for police
officers and people who have public influence and the trust
of the public and their position. And you know, if
you're a potential client of somebody, what are the things
(10:57):
you need to really be looking out for in terms of,
you know, this attorney may not be all they're cracked
up to be, just in terms of their professionalism and
their willing to use things. And you know, depending on
the person that may be the exact attorney you're looking
for if you're trying to smuggle drugs into a jail.
But it definitely raises a lot of red flags. And
you know, we see certain patterns with attorneys like we
do other professionals, just in terms of the pressure that
(11:19):
they work under, the stress levels, the financial pressures ego
is unfortunately a big one with a lot of people.
And you know, what are the things that you know,
potential clients can look for when trying to assess an attorney,
and you know, those are all big red flags for me,
is those kind of financial motivations. People who seem just
(11:40):
concerned about making money, don't take pride in their work,
don't take care about the job they do and their
professional stature and their place in the professional community, are
the ones that are going to be more motivated incentivized
to do stuff like this.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Well, you work on white collar criminal cases as well,
so maybe you see some common themes and the type
of things that motivate people who get into these who
are professionals who kind of cross the line into embezzling
or getting involved in these types of criminal acts.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Yeah, and I'll tell you in the case of white
collar crimes that we look at there's in my mind
there's kind of two different categories of white collar criminals.
One is the professional white collar criminal and the other
is the opportunistic white collar criminals. So your professional white
collar criminal. I see a lot of these in federal
cases where there is kind of a scam of the
(12:39):
I say, of the month, but it usually every two
three years a new big scam comes along, and these
guys will go from scam to scam to scam. You know,
I see a lot of healthcare frauds. So in healthcare fraud,
these are scams where people are trying to take a
government program Medicare, Medicaid, Trycare in the case of military veterans,
(13:01):
and scam as much money as they can from the government.
And over the years we have seen different scams that
start to slowly grow. The professional scammers catch wind of it,
they all jump on board, make a bunch of money.
If some of them get caught and take it off
to prison, the rest of them wait for basically the
scam to quit working, and then they move on to
(13:24):
the next scam. So, you know, there was issues with
Durbal medical goods and then we saw that go into
the big one ten years ago was compounding pharmaceuticals in
the VA, and essentially they were able to get fifteen
or twenty thousand dollars a month from the Veterans Administration
for vitamin creams with a little pain cream in them
(13:46):
because of the way they were billed. And they would
hire doctors to do fake medical reports or telehealth consulting
without really doing any medical consulting. They would recruit people
to dig in to try to these people down. They
were literally outside a military basis trying to recruit people. Hey,
if you call this doctor and get this prescription sent
(14:06):
to you, I'll give you five hundred dollars a month.
I'll give you a thousand dollars a month. And then
they were pocketing millions and millions of dollars in the
federal government caught wise, they shut it down, and then
it moved on to other things. We've had it with
COVID testing and medic care patients. We've had it with
genetic testing and Medicare patients. That's starting to get cut
down on, but there's always kind of another scheme that
(14:28):
those guys are looking for. And they all talk to
each other and they all kind of know each other
it's a community and they bounce around from scheme to scheme,
and unfortunately the federal authorities it's kind of playing whack
a mole trying to track them down. So that's kind
of one category. The second category is professionals who wind
up a lot of times there's pressure from kind of
(14:52):
that first category to do things that they may otherwise do,
to do things that where they're given opportunity and convinced
of things. So, you know, when the compounding pharmaceutical is big,
we represented I would say some people that were definitely
in that first bucket that were kind of professional schemers
and moved on to other things with the ones that
(15:13):
didn't get in trouble and the other ones, you know,
got in trouble. And then the second category is pharmacists
in this case who didn't really understand what was going
on and then would get kind of sold a bill
of goods by that first bucket of people. And you know,
people who otherwise have worked very hard for their professional careers,
they take their job seriously, get kind of roped in
(15:34):
with that that first bucket of people, and then when
they're done with them, they move on to the companies
that do genetic testing or the companies that do COVID
testing or the you know, any of those other different
areas that we see.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah, this is so interesting. I started looking at how
to make paper dope and kind of getting back into
the chemical compound and how it's shipped here and how
it you know, how it's composed and comes together, and
how people get a hold of it, and kind of
like you're saying, so there's there's actual chemical companies that
(16:07):
can disguise this in other products to move it.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Oh yeah, right, Well it's interesting because you hear the
name of the operations like operations stamp collecting or you
know stamp and you say, you know, that's a that's
a very odd name. Why would they name it that?
And the reason is they can take these giant pieces
of paper, cover them in drugs, and then they sell
them in The individual doses are basically the size of
a postage stamp. So that's where that term comes from,
(16:34):
is that's the dosing that they're actually giving out. So
you know, the allegations in this case that we're talking about,
we're eight and a half eleven piece of paper, but
you know they're cut up into the smaller doses and
then they're traded like currency like you used to you know,
like hear in TV and movies like, oh, they're using
this for currency, and that's exactly what it is. But
this has been something in terms of these liquid chemicals
(16:55):
and chemical analogs that has been going on for a
long time. And you know, we were talking a little
about how the federal government playing whack and role with
healthcare fraud. The DEA and the federal government is also
playing whack and mole with illegal drugs. You know, the
synthetic marijuanas. There's a doctor for at the University of
Clemson who I think it was like thirty years ago
(17:17):
at this point, started coming up with, you know, some
of doing legitimate research about thirty years ago, started doing
testing on cannabinoid receptors and how it worked in the body.
They created over I think four hundred compounds, and then
drug dealers that started off in Germany and quickly made
it what's way over here, realized that oh we can
kind of manufacture these go through this research steel. None
of it's been tested for human consumption, toxicity, side effects, lethality,
(17:41):
none of it's been tested, but it'll have the same
impact on people that you know, marijuana will or similar drugs,
and they will. They just started getting these chemicals together
and sprang it over, you know, pieces of organic matter,
leaves or whatever they could find that spice K two.
Thing that we have going on and now they've kind
(18:02):
of take that to the next level is Okay, we
have drugs. How do we get them in a jail?
If my attorney walks in with a bag of white powder,
that's going to be pretty obvious. And oh well, there's
legal paperwork. So we have legal paperwork, and we exchange
legal paperwork, and I've given people plenty of documents. You know, hey,
here's a report. Read this. Hey, you know, here's a statement.
We've been discussing with you over the phone. Take a
(18:22):
look at this. Get us your notes. You know, that's
a very common thing. And okay, well we exchange paperwork
and that's a normal thing. Nobody says anything about it.
How do we get drugs into a jail or a prison.
It's like, okay, we have a piece of papers, that's
the mechanism, and then how do we do it? And
it's we either spray or soak it in the drugs
and We've had other cases in Florida where people have
(18:44):
soaked cocaine laced paper and brought it into a jail.
There was an attorney a few years back. They busted
him with I think twenty seven pieces of paper. They're
all completely laced in cocaine. And then the innates would
get it and put it in the water, let it
soak out, and they would drink it, or they could
potentially smoke it if they had the ability to light
a fire.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Wow, it seems like some of the security protocols for
jail are going to have to be changed to prevent
this from happening if it's so prevalent. I just recently
talked to a psychiatrist who works in a federal prison,
and the first thing he told me was about the
(19:26):
same epidemic that we're talking about, And so maybe it's
much more prevalent that we're seeing. And how do you
think this is going to affect the protocols for just
professional visits?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Well, you know, I can tell you the jail intelligence
unit here in Jacksonville kind of figured out what was
going on because they'd find a piece of paper. They
didn't know how it was coming in. They didn't know
what was going on, but they realized professional visits maybe
how it was happening. And so what they've started doing
is if I want to bring somebody paperwork, they will
take it, they will make a copy, they will destroy
(20:02):
the original and give the person the copy. Obviously there's
concerns about that from the attorney side. Is I'm trying
to communicate with somebody who's in custody about a criminal matter,
where the same sheriff's office that has investigated them or
prosecuting them is also the one who is now scanning
copies and taking their paperwork that may be sensitive and
(20:23):
have information about other officers. And it's tough to find
a balance between, you know, making sure we're keeping sacrosanc
that attorney client privilege and making sure people are getting
represented the best way and making sure peoplen't get killed
in the jail overdosing on drugs that are being smuggled
in by unscriptious attorneys'. It's a not an envious position
to be in to try to weigh those two because
(20:44):
it's tough.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
So what do people need to know about K two
or spice? You know, we're calling it paper dope, they're all,
you know, we see it sold in like spice, you know,
putting nice little colored packages like a tattoo shops places
like that, spe and making it seem so appilling or harmless.
(21:11):
It seems to be so prevalent that people are using it,
But I don't know that people really understand the chemical
component or the side effects of it, or what it
really is. It just seems it even says not for
human consumptions. That's my first red flag there.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Well, it says that as a way to get around
regulators and law enforcement, but not that that's very effective.
But you know, and unfortunately, it's gotten to the point
where drugs aren't the drugs that people think they're getting.
And if you purchase something like this, you have no
idea where it's coming from, You have no idea what's
in it, You have no idea, And you know, candidly,
(21:52):
the ten people that have touched it before it makes
it to that store, maybe one or two of those
ten care about what happens to you. But it seems unlikely,
you know, and it goes through so many hands you
get people who really don't they're not worried they're going
to get sued if you overdose or die or something
like that. But oh, we put not for human consumption
in this business will be open and shot within a
(22:13):
year and on everybody will be onto something else. So
they just don't care. And that's crewe not only for
the K two in the space, but for a lot
of the street drugs we're seeing. I was talking to
an agent with the Federal Law Enforcement and Narcotics of
the drugs in our area. People think they're getting cocaine.
Almost ninety percent of it has ventanyl in some form
(22:34):
or another in it. People think they're doing one thing
and they're doing another thing. And the number of accidental
homicides and accidental overdose deaths is skyrocketing. Thankfully due to
Narcan and things like that. Where there's medical interventions, they're
becoming less fatal. But we're not having any fewer overdose deaths.
(22:54):
I represent a woman who she was with a male
friend for another friend. They thought they were doing some
drugs and they were given fentanyl. They had no never
used fentanyl, they didn't want to use ventanyl. She overdosed
and almost died. He actually passed away. The person who
sold it to him. They're they're prosecuting him for a
murder now. And unfortunately, that's the story I hear time
(23:14):
and time again, is people think they're doing one thing
and they wind up in a you know, in a
life threatening situation by putting things in their body they
really don't understand and probably not shocking to you, doctor Anderson,
but drug dealers don't spend a lot of time worrying
about the drugs they're they're selling to people and you know,
if they're safe or not. And they wouldn't know anyway,
because by the time it makes it to somebody who's
(23:36):
using it, it's been through five, six, seven, eight, sometimes
even more.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Hands. Yeah, I can't caution people enough. I work in
the psych hospital for four years, so I saw thousands
of people being admitted psychiatrically. Most of them had had
or had a positive talk screen with at least a
couple of different drugs, sometimes five or six or but
we could we could be So I always would have
(24:04):
conversations with people about how, you know, how close they
came to death or overdosing or dying like, and how
people's decision tree on, how where they get their drugs,
how they consume it, why they do it, and it's
so much like Russian roulette. They're just taking this huge risk.
You have no idea what it is you're actually consuming.
(24:27):
And so many many times a lot of them didn't
intend to consume whatever was put in their body or
had it's mixed with other things or tons of fentyl use.
People end up getting addicted to that. Just the level
of trust or the trust, but like to put something
in your body, do you have no idea what it
(24:50):
actually is.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
It's just shocking.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
There's a trend that we saw a few years back
when overdose desk started becoming a lot more prevalent and
people are becoming a lot more concerned. Drug dealers were
starting to use dyes and things like that to tell people, hey,
this is the same drug you've had before, so you know,
for a lot of MDMA, molly, ecstasy, you know, those
types of kind of party drugs. For lack of a description,
(25:18):
you know, I'd see a lot of media reports and
some people say, oh, they're trying to make it look
like candy, and it's like, that's really not what they're doing.
They're trying to make it look like a distinct product
so that they can keep selling it. To people and
they say, oh, I've tried this before. I didn't have
a bad experience. I didn't get hurt. And it was
actually for business purposes. It was not to trick children
(25:38):
into taking drugs. It was to get drug users to
feel more comfortable that they were not going to OD
or they were going to get something different than they
were used to. And you know, with those types of drugs,
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but they
will they actually get pill presses and they make their
own pills. A lot of times the pills don't necessarily
come in as pills from you know, China and Mexico
are obviously the big ones in the news and that
(26:00):
is where a lot of it comes in. But they
will get the kind of the wholesale powders and things
like that and get pill press and make their own pills,
and some of them we saw it here locally and
around kind of the southeast United States, where you know,
drug dealers were trying to make their products unique so
that people would be more comfortable using them so they
weren't worried that they were going to OD. And you know,
(26:21):
just like any any marketing that you see on TV
or the internet, trying to inspire brand loyalty and things
like that.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Ran loyalty. Okay, oh wow.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
It's something else, but that's, you know, kind of And
I've talked to people who were doing that, and that
is exactly what they told me, people who were accused
and some convicted of doing exactly that. And that was
how they explained it to me, is you know this,
You know this way. People know that this is from us,
and it's good stuff where it's coming from, and they'll
buy more of it, and you know, like any business,
(26:55):
they're trying to sell more product. It's horrible to think
about that way, but that's how some of these people.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Think so dangerous.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
So if I had any advice to anyone out there, parent,
talk to your kids about drugs, talk about drugs, educate
them before someone else does. I've talked to my kids
a lot about drugs, and I do have a teenager.
He probably knows way too much about drugs. He actually
(27:22):
was in boy Scout and like taught some drug classes
for a while.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
It is kind of funny, but like, educate.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yourself whoever you are, just know the risks. I think
there's a lot of misinformation even just with marijuana use,
people thinking it to a much more friendlier drug, or
but you don't know who you're getting it from, you
don't know what's in it, you don't know the percentage
of THHC. Like how these transactions happen, and this is
(27:48):
how overdoses occur, and just simply in exchange of someone
taking something and telling you what it is and you
consuming it and it's something else or laced with something else.
So something I've seen that I think there's a lot
of misinformation about And you can comment on this, but
I see a lot of adolescents using marijuana, like starting
(28:15):
at a young age high amounts of THHC and having
psychotic breaks and becoming psychotic or developing schizophrenia or committing crimes,
and you know, I see them in juvenile hall now
they're charged with a serious crime like murder, okay, even
(28:37):
under just the influence of marijuana, and their family crying
with me, or the defendant crying with me and wanting
to change everything. And I've talking with the mom, talking
with the dad, talking with their child, and like how
there was misinformation about marijuana or why they consumed it,
(28:57):
or even having the parents sometimes buy this for their
child and thinking it's going to help. There's just it's
such a dangerous So people, if you were going to
buy something, you could buy something from the dispensary and
it should tell you the percentage of THHC on the back,
like if it's right. So, but your drug dealer on
(29:20):
speed dial isn't going to have that on the packaging exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Well, and we're seeing that with kind of marijuana related products,
whether it's the oils or the waxes or you know,
some of the other things, were even some of the
edible things where people think it's going to be one
thing and it turns into a whole different thing and
they wind up getting Thankfully, with marijuana, we don't have
the same issues where you know, people stop breathing. They're
hard stopped to anywhere near the level we have with opioids.
(29:47):
But it you know, some people have some horrible reactions
and you know, kind of going back to the spice
and the K two is people were having some real
psychological reactions with that, and you know, people saying, oh, well,
it's like a marijuana how does this happen happening that's
not a normal thing. To happen with marijuana. It's like,
this isn't like marijuana. This is a chemical that was
created in a lab and tested by nobody, and nobody
(30:09):
really knows what this does to you other than part
of the thing that it does to you is attached
to the same receptors that marijuana does and gives you
some of the same feelings marijuana. What the rest of
it does and the toxicity, and you know, nobody has
any idea because nobody tested for it, because this wasn't
a medication. This wasn't something that was you know, put
through the rigors of kind of the scientific process. This
was research, academic research done on cannabinoid receptors in the nineties.
(30:33):
And now all of a sudden is getting sprayed on
you know, grass clippings that they're finding outside of their
you know, their warehouse, you know, fifteen twenty years later.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Tested by nobody. I mean, just that's going to be
a no for me. And you don't know what will happen.
It could only take once. And I've seen patients admitted
using spice and they're very psychotic, and it's just it's
had a very strange reaction. And while some people can
(31:03):
say they've consumed it and not have that reaction, but
you keep using it, and at at what point could
it cause a reaction in you and it's irreversible, Like,
is that a risk you're willing to take?
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Well, again, we're also never going to smuggle drugs into
a jail. We might be a little different than some people,
but no, it definitely goes to that. And with this
kind of whack a mole that we see with you DA.
So when kind of the K two first came out,
these were all synthetic drugs that it had been really
not seen outside of a lab at Clemson University. In
fifteen years, they start popping up in Germany. They're not outlawed,
(31:39):
they're not scheduled because nobody's made them, nobody's tested. They're
they're the existence and academic papers. And the next thing
you know, they're popping up in gas stations and headshops
and you know, all these places and people are getting sick.
The people who were creating it have certainly done no
testing sufficient to you know, know what's an appropriate dosage
or how to administer it. They don't care. And you know,
(32:01):
we've seen that kind of shift to other drugs. As
time has ticked on the next one that, yeah, I'm
sure we'll start seeing about in the news, because I'm
starting to see it already, or what we call substitute cathinins,
which is if you're familiar with kot, which is a
it's some leaves that are chewed. It's it's popular in
some African cultures. It produces like a stimulant effect substitute cathinones.
(32:25):
We're starting to see testing for cocaine and fentanyl come
up with a lot more substitute cathinins. They have pretty
serious stimulant effects, they can make them cheaper, and we're
starting to see them cutting cocaine and fentanyl with the
substitute cathinons. And I think that's something we're going to
be hearing in the news over the next two three
four years as probably a lot more common. And then
(32:46):
when law enforcement figures out how to you know, stop
that train from running. I don't know what the one
is going to be after that, but I suspect that's
going to be the next big one.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah, thank you for sharing all this information, and yeah,
you're right there in Florida.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
So yeah, like I said, if anybody takes anything from this,
it's you know, be careful what you put in your
body because you really just have no idea. And you know,
it's funny, there's I've talked to people who sell drugs
for a living that do not They have no idea
what they're actually selling until we get these lat tests back,
and its stuff they've never heard of. They have no idea,
(33:23):
and unfortunately, people are dying and getting hurt, and it's
it's it's really important, and it's getting into our jails,
it's getting into our schools. It's just unfortunate. And you
know this case we were talking about where you have
an attorney as part of it, and it's not the
first time. It's just people, you know, people who want
money and people who don't think through the consequences their actions.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
You know, it only takes one time, one hit, one time,
that's all it takes. I can tell you stories of
just like fairly innocent people that found their way into
a situation, but it's changed their mental health forever. And
there are some disorders that are irreversible. So I just
(34:08):
I caution so many people, and I've I talk to
people to use drugs all the time. So it's you know,
I'm not so naive about it, but people who you
know in the hospital, they have just thought, you know,
they were depressed or had anxiety, or just thought it
could help them go to sleep, or just whatever the
(34:29):
reason they take something. I would just never trust anyone
that's any drug of any kind. Like, just be so
cautious of what you put in your body, even anyone
handing you anything, like you may never be able to
come back with that. Like, just recognize if you're in
an emotionally vulnerable space.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
So whether it's.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Depression or whatever it is, right you just you want
to get high.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Just protect yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
You know, drug dealers on speed dial aren't pharmacists, They're
not doctors. Okay, so you actually can go see a
real you know, psychiatrist or someone if you were struggling
with certain symptoms. And actually the job of an actual psychiatrist,
(35:21):
right is they have to actually go over the medication name.
And I assisted a psychiatrist for many years, and I
would the medication name, the side effects, we would watch
an informational video together, we would educate them. Like I
would spent a great deal educating patients about the pros
and cons of this medication, what it could do for you.
(35:43):
We'd take it, starts in a small dose, tie trade up.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Observe, monitor all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
So you can book an appointment with a psychiatrist and
get actual prescriptions, and you can actually actually do genetic
testing and you can see what medication is best for
your body, because typically the average person goes through like
seven wrong trials of meds for they get the right
medication for them. That's so you can now technology has change.
(36:13):
You can do genetic testing and you can determine like
which medications would be best for you or which ones
not to trial. So there's so much information and there's
misinformation about psychiatry or psychologists or what we do. But
like people are self medicating on drugs, and I try
to provide education on other options for people to feel
(36:35):
better and not you know, because the number one thing
I see all day every day is substance use. And
people are actually suffering. They are dying, they are hurting,
they are going through withdraws, they're not well. There's nothing
good that becoming addicted to drugs brings.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
This probably isn't shocking to you, but the intersection of
mental health and you know, whether it's alcohol or controlled substances.
That's how I spend most of my day too, That's
the bulk of the time that we spend. It's, you know,
the intersection of mental health substance abuse, and you know,
ultimately trying to in a lot of ways help people
deal with those things. But kind of back to what
(37:14):
you were saying, you know, the difference between seeing a
psychiatrist who can prescribe medication mantra is those have been tested,
we know what the side effects are. The people who
are selling these drugs and making them up as they
go along or pulling them out of research from fifteen
years earlier. They're looking to make money and sell a product.
They have no idea what they're doing, and it is
(37:36):
just unbelievably dangerous. And the way we find out how
bad and how dangerous is for people who essentially volunteer
to be the guinea pigs and then we realize five
years down the road, ten years down the road they
have permanent psychological, physical, mental health damage. And they're like, well,
I didn't know, and it's like, well, yeah, you took
something that somebody made up in a lab, possibly in
(37:58):
another country, that had been tested on no and we're
just hoping it went well. And nobody who sold this
to your care And if you're expecting them the care,
I don't know why you would.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
And if for anyone that's like, oh, I hate big pharma,
you know what I do in my job as a psychologist,
I test people psychological testing to see whether if they
actually have an actual diagnosis, and then we come up
with a plan for them, so whether they need an
you know, an antipsychotic or rite, whether an SSRI would
(38:33):
be inappropriate or whatever. There's certain meds you shouldn't take
with certain disorders and can cause them to be more symptomatic.
So anybody that's out there that's suffering or not sure
what to do, like you can get an evaluation, get
appropriate diagnosis, an appropriate plan for meds, and when you
are honest with your healthcare provider and you talk about
(38:54):
your symptoms, you can actually get relief and feel better
and get manage your mental health. And for anyone that's
already like somewhat addicted to meds, because most people I
see are they are taking things that they aren't telling
their doctor about and they are trying to feel better.
(39:16):
But I would just encourage anyone to get a mental
health evaluation sooner rather than later, and say, you don't
find yourself at a point of no return. So like
the people sometimes I see, they are telling me they
can't return. They're so far down the road of being
(39:37):
addicted to fentl or in a life of crime, just
supporting that, and they are not interested in help. They've
gone very down down that path, and they'll explain to
me how they got there.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
So I always try to help people wherever they're at.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
But like, if wherever you're at, like it's not too
late to like change your direction and actually get good
mental health help because the side effect is overdose or death.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Well, and kind of back to what you were saying,
is you know and I hear that too. It I
get it in terms of you know, prescription medications, big pharma,
I understand that. But the solution to that is not, hey,
I'm gonna I got this from a gas station, so
it must be safe. That's just not how it works.
You know, At a minimum, if you're going to be
putting something in your body needs to be something that's
been tested as thoroughly as it can. You need to
(40:24):
be monitored by professional. It needs to be administered in
the correct way. There needs to be some sort of
research done before you put it in your body, what
it does to people short term and long term. And
because we see these drug dealers, for lack of a
better description, trying to stay one step ahead of the
Controlled Substances Act because if it's not on that list,
then you can you can sell it, And so we'll
(40:46):
just keep coming up with new drugs that haven't been tested.
Haven't you know, nothing's been done to make sure that
this isn't going to wind up people just dropping dead
in five years. That's definitely not the answer, don't you know.
It's like saying, well, I don't like to have, you know,
sugary food, so instead of eating here, I'm just going
to go into the woods and grab whatever berries and
mushrooms and things and start eating them. It's that's probably
(41:07):
not going to end well for you if you don't
know what you're putting into your body and just guessing
at it is such a so much more dangerous thing.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Absolutely, And the guy at the tattoo shop, the guy
at the gas station, they're not a psychiatrist. They don't
have a doctorate degree. I know, I know, I know,
so like I wouldn't rely on just what anyone says.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
You could do your research.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
You can even use chatchept like you can get educated
on the side effects of drugs. Don't trust your drug
dealer on speed dial. Stay away from these drugs. Oh
my goodness, Alex King, thank you so much for educating
us today.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
I would love to have you back.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
And yeah, tell our listeners if they need an attorney,
you know where they can find you at. And I
know your license in Florida.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
Yes, so re lives of Florida. I will say. The
best way to not need me is to don't do
anything where you will need me. And it's funny. I
talk to people and I'm always I always tell them
it's like I don't want repeat business, you know, kind
of like you know in your field. It's you know,
our goal is to get people better and get them fixed.
I don't like getting repeat calls or repeat customers. I say,
send me a Christmas card, send me some well wishes
(42:25):
at the New Year, but I don't want to hear
from you again. We want to make sure that we're
figuring out whatever's going into your life that led you there,
but yeah, we're we are from located in Jacksonville, Florida,
kind of handle all northeast Florida, so for federal cases
we travel a fair a bit for that and our
website is a Jax Criminal That's JX dot com. You
(42:45):
find out more information there.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Okay, Alex, wonderful speaking with you today.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Thank you so much, a complete pleasure. Thank you so
much for having me.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Thank you for listening to Killer Psychologist. To watch fool
episodes or if you want to interact with me, you
can find Killer Psychologists on YouTube. You can also get
notified of new episodes by signing up in my stand store. Now,
if you want to work with me, you can book
a console. My website is psychologydoctor dot com. That's psychology
(43:21):
dr dot com.
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