72 - "764" - Killer Psychologist

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Killer Psychologist. I'm Dana Anderson, a forensic psychologist
and your host of the show. Killer Psychologist is for
true crime fanatics and anyone intrigued with the dark side
of psychology. Welcome to Killer Psychologist. Today, we're going to

(00:22):
unpack the psychology behind seven sixty four. But first, what
is seven six'? Four seven sixty four are the first
three digits of THE zip code In, Stephenville. Texas but
in twenty twenty, one those numbers became the calling card
for a disturbing online colt created by a fifteen year

(00:45):
old boy Named Bradley. Cadenhead What Bradley cadenhead built wasn't
just a chat, Room it was a decentralized network of psychological, control,
cohersion and. Abuse he used innocent platforms Like, minecraft which
is a game mic kid, plays and chat groups Like

(01:08):
discord To Groom, miners where they shared violent content and
taught other kids how to manipulate vulnerable. Children so a
little bit of background On Bradley. Cadenhead according to law,
Enforcement Bradley cadenhead developed a pornography addiction around age eight

(01:29):
and soon turned into being addicted to some violent and statistic.
Content by age, thirteen he was on probation for threatening
a school, shooting and around age fourteen he spent some
time in juvenile. Hall so around that time he returned
to online gaming platforms and was grooming. Minors so most

(01:52):
people thought he was just another, kid but he. Wasn't
he ran a server where content included child sexual abuse,
material animal, torture and he even wrote guides on how
to manipulate and exploit. Children discord flagged him at least
fifty eight times before law enforcement. Responded by the time

(02:15):
law enforcement got, involved they found over twenty files of
childhood sexual abuse, material and there is videos and pictures
of kids who'd been cohersed into carving seven six' four onto.
Their skin there was even a video of a woman
being held down. And stabbed so to understand how, THIS

(02:37):
happens i have two experts to join, Me Today eric
Zelia And. Craig, Wetter, so craig from a, psychological standpoint
what vulnerabilities make children or adolescents more susceptible to manipulation
by groups like seven Sixty four and what are some
of the, warning signs especially when a child's judgment is

(02:59):
already impaired, by trauma, developmental delays or mental health challenges
that parents or professionals should be.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Looking, for well you just pointed out the primary sort,
of vulnerabilities but, you know in, all kids we've talked about.
This before children the frontal lobes aren't fully developed until,
you know around age twenty five and, most people so
children just generally and even adolescents and even young adults
already have this vulnerability of somewhat impair judgment when it

(03:28):
comes to this kind. Of STUFF but i think there's
other psychological variables that also can increase vulnerability. In kids
some of those again involve personality characteristics of some children developing.
Dependency traits and, you know the need to belong the
longliness is very, is critical, you know in. IDENTITY formation
i think in, most kids some kids have a greater need.

(03:51):
For that so kids who are outcasted from, you know their,
social groups or who feel alienated in, SOME way i
think that's a risk, Factor absolutely and actually that's Where
this bradley fit that profile when. He started but, you
know when he was, very young he was, cast out he.
Was bullied according to, you know what's available in the,

(04:12):
public forums he, was outcasted he, was bullied and things.
Like that he came from a, chaotic well we generally
see these chaotic home LIFs where you have a lot
of family chaos. Going on, you know these are breeding
grounds for, you know later the development of later serious
psychopathology in both the victimizers and even in the. Victims

(04:32):
themselves that's a long answer to.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Your question, That's, Perfect eric how did this come across?
Your radar you wanted to talk about this seven SIX
for i just wanted.

Speaker 3 (04:44):
To talk about gangs and stuff, in general because, you
know organized crime is a major it's becoming a major issue,
now again and we hear a lot of talk about
mus thirteen and stuff like that in, the media and
people don't realize that this group is nothing more than
just a typical organized. Crime organization, you know they call it,
a cult but let's. Be honest, you know any organization

(05:06):
that exists with multiple numbers that do it for obviously,
monetary reasons that are committing a crime is. Organized crime it's,
a rico not. A cult, you know that's the. Biggest
thing and then, you know whether it be just, you
know maybe ignorant to the media or just. Downplaying it
when you call it, a cult you kind of downplay
the severity of what it, actually is and that is.

(05:28):
Organized crime. You, know yeah started by a fifteen year
old who probably had other friends in school whatever that
he was doing, this with and it probably grew because, we, realized,
hey look people will pay me. For this and so as,
that continued, he grew this organization started getting servers and,
you know charging membership fees and having people all over,

(05:48):
the world not Just The united states but all over
the world partaking. In this, you know that's not. A
cult that is one hundred percent. Organized crime and you
could even go as far to say that it's a
gang because if they're using the same and sixty four
as their moniker, their identity and they're all together as
more than they're more than, one person they've got, two
people it's. A conspiracy, it's ongoing they're using a common

(06:10):
identifier seven, sixty four and they're all doing it, for
criminal criminal reasons and for, you know. Monetary gain that's. A,
gang yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
That's true that's different than, you know like when you think,
of cults you think of things like, You Know david
koresh's Movement and jones and that kind of those those kind,
of folks and there wasn't necessarily in those and. Monetary,
PURPOSE yeah i mean typically when you, have cults it's
typically in a.

Speaker 3 (06:33):
Religious context people committing bank fraud isn't. A cult that's
a group of. Organized criminals it's kind of. The SAME
and i think that, you know maybe with the, you
know especially with the medium stuff, these days, you know
they look AT the bdsm, type material they look at the,
you know the abuse, of animals, they, say well, you
know we see that, in cults so that must be what.
This is but again. It's not it's no different than

(06:55):
having an organization that goes out and, kills people, you know.
Hired hitmen it's all organized crime as make them a
cold most of a.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
Religious aspect do, you know do you know how many
or how much money that they. Were making have they
disclosed any of? THAT Information i.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
I'm not sure if. They have I'm sure dana's going
to look. It up BUT when i reviewed this case,
as briefly because, YOU know i don't pay much attention
to all this STUFF because i got my own oaks
have to. Worry about BUT when i was looking into
just this case because. THE nexus, I mean, i know
the entire investigation started, in text but THEN the nextus
took it. TO international i think there was a lot.
OF money i think you've reasoning cryptical currency as a

(07:30):
primary means to longer. That money and my, assumption is
and AGAIN the feds don't get involved in there's a
lot of money there. To RECOUP so i would, say, Yes.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Probably yeah there's no information online about any specific amount,
of money so maybe we'll.

Speaker 3 (07:47):
Never, know well and, you know and one of the
things obviously is IF the feds are going after this
from a, organized standpoint they're going to have to, Show
financials they're going to have to show. A benefit they're
going to have to be some type of, you know,
because again you can't have, an organization can't tarden ragteering
if there's, no benefit if it's not organized and there's,

(08:07):
no benefit because then at that point you're just committing
a crime for. No profit so they're gonna have to
provide finances at. Some point but given the complexity of,
this case and again, you know we have a case
that spans both federal but also international, AND internationally aid,
is involved there's probably a lot of money that's been
moved since twenty, twenty one and they're probably the process

(08:27):
of having to trace all of. That now but it's
easier to attack the lower person on the, tonal pole
which is the fifteen year, old kid versus trying to
go after all the higher, ups first because you use
him to get to. Everybody else and that's a big
difference between how we do things on the street and
HOW the feds. Do Things and craig probably knows the
fedge work, top down so, you know they don't look

(08:48):
the WAY that i look, at things because, YOU know
i come from behind, prison bars, you know so when
we look, at things we put it. Together differently the
fedge work. Top down we can see pattent ands, say,
hey look you know this is like crime is looks like,
rikail this, you know and let's let's. Prove it the
fits they come in, and, SAY well i don't know
if there's a crime here YET until i.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Find, it YEAH there's, i mean this group was involved
in quite a bit, of sextortion which is becoming, you
know this is emerging as a it's actually becoming a public,
health crisis right because now you've got children, being here,
you know adolests, and children, you know they're sharing explicit photos.
Of themselves, you know they're being lured into these chat
rooms and they think that they're talking to, you know

(09:27):
somebody around, their age and, they're not and then they
end up. Getting extorted and this is leading to kids,
committing suicide engaging in self, injurious behaviors that kind. Of
STUFF and i wasn't aware of how significant this WAS
until i started looking at some of the some of.
The literature so there's some data out there that suggests

(09:49):
that like one in three teens and this is from
in twenty, twenty four one in three teens had been
contacted by a stranger requesting explicit content to be, you
know communicat, to them and many of those and again
this isn't it's not an, empirical study but it was
put out by thorn dot org and they reported some reported, you,

(10:09):
know blackmails being blackmailed. Or threatened so this is A
big this is becoming a much. Bigger PROBLEM and i,
know that, you KNOW the fbi is definitely aware.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
Of that.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
This this this kind of surgeon these, sextortion cases and
that's what one of the things this group was.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Doing sextortion and.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
Also. Swatting, swatting, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
So swatting so you can call nine one one have
a swat team show up at your house with guns pointed,
at you which could be pretty terrifying for. A kid
so essentially they would have to make up something about you,
that's untrue like you have a hostage or something that
there's some imminent threat to get the swat. Team there
and then you're a kid, at home so this is

(10:51):
happening and your parents are now asking you questions like
what did? You do or you're now, In trouble so
like it's the, psychological warfare but it's real danger because
there was a swatting case that led to a death
that Was, In wichita kansas in, twenty seventeen where the
police shot and killed an innocent person due to.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
False, reports YEAH but i do remember, that case and
you know that's led to obviously quite a bit of.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
Civil liability. You know the issue, with swatting and a
lot of people, don't understand is the way the media
makes it sound like it's like it's, super complicated but it.
REALLY isn't i pick up, THE phone i find out
where you Live, at DANA and i call them not
an emergency number for, your county, and, say, hey look
you know This Lady dana anderson is you know at
X y z address? She's got, you know ALL these
i call from a burner number because the, thing is

(11:42):
you can't call nine one one in another you Know what, I'm,
SAYING like i Can't call california nine one One. From
florida it doesn't work, that way and you can't spoof nine.
One one but what they do is they contact a
non e burgancye numbers and they use a burner numbership
doesn't trace back, to anybody and that's how they get
this swatting. Thing started comblin's, issue too, because there in,

(12:05):
a sense there are indicators to show a dispatcher that
this call is. Probably bullshit but for, whatever reason we
have not gotten that far where we've taught our dispatchers
how to weed through, the bullshit to turn what is
swatting on.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
What isn't have there been any swatting incidents connected directly to,
This GROUP DANA m.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
I don't have all. That information there is one interview
with a Girl named eve who was lured into discord
and she was hiding out in, her closet responding. To
discord they were trying to get her to. Send pictures
she ended up. Getting involved on one, video call they

(12:48):
urged her to kill herself and was trying to convince
her to carve those numbers onto. Her skin what does
that call when they get you to, carve oh? F
in what's it called? Fans something i'm.

Speaker 3 (13:02):
Sure they've got a new name.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
For that, but yeah this is where, you know parents
need to pay attention to, these behaviors, you know in
terms of kids that are doing, you know there's concealing
who they're talking to on their phones or, you know
what they're doing On their.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
They pressured her to strangle her cat and behead her hamster.
On camera, they said quote bite the, head Off or
i'll fuck your whole life up. Into quote and she
felt pressured to do. These things apparently they had something
on her, or pictures and she. Did it she did
it in her. Bedroom closet, you know here's the.

Speaker 3 (13:37):
Thing with that is is, you know when you look
at this group and what they, were doing a lot
of people just, see well you know they were asking for,
you know for john pornography or you know what we
call cea san material or, you know they were asking
for killing animals or or what we call snuff type.
Of activities and some, might, think well, you know they
were just doing it for, sexual reasons, but no there is,

(13:57):
a market a black market for all. Of them and
these people are essentially. Like brokers they are brokering the
deal between a victim and, their buyer, which is, you
know whoever they have on the dark web that's buying.
These videos while some were probably doing it for, sexual
gratification most are probably doing it for. Monetary reasons and
we're acting as a broker where they would make contact

(14:18):
with the victims and would get them to make the
material that they would then upload to the dark web
and other, you know file sharing websites and get money
off of that because people will buy. That shit and
a lot of people don't understand that it's not just,
about sex not just. About kids it's. About, money yeah
and kids. Are curious it's the same thing. With drag
you kids. Are CURIOUS so i never killed. MY cat

(14:41):
i took my cat's. HAIR once i will, tell you oh.
AFTER that i did cut the cat's hair ONCE when
i was, Like five, but scissors did a. Great job
didn't cut.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
The cat so you didn't put your cat in. The microwave.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
That's, GOOD no i didn't know who would put the
cat in. The microwave that's.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
Another story but someone did put their cat in a
microwave and strangled it and threw it into.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
The water the microwave. Wasn't enough they had to strangle,
it too or they strangle before they put Them mark.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
It's unclear but, any ways one.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
Of those would, be intent the other one would just
be a, you know just here of.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
The moment Where Is bradley cadenhead? Right now apparently he
pled guilty and he's sentenced to eighty years In printin
so he's now an adult who's about eighteen. Years old
so he's Incarcerated, In, huntsville texas a high security. Correctional

(15:33):
facility so he was only charged with.

Speaker 3 (15:35):
State crimes they in charge on.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
FEDERAL level i don't know of all the exact crimes
he was, convicted of but even in the CASE that
i just talked About, with eve he wasn't charged in connection.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
With, THAT yeah, i mean the reason he's got such
a long term sentence again is it it relates specifically
to the charges that. He received so he was charged
with specific child exploitation and child abuse Stat that texas,
you know currently has on. The books and, you know as,
Everyone knows texas does not. Fuck around you do this

(16:07):
kind of stuff in a State, like texas.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
Fuck around and, find, out yeah you.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
Fuck around you find out there are states, where you,
you know you do this kind, Of stuff you're going
down for the rest of.

Speaker 3 (16:17):
Your.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Life basically now, other states, you know you can figure
out what those states, might be would take a completely
different position. On this, this kid based on, his age
could very well have just been sent to a juvenile,
you know rehabilitation center and then held until he was
the at the age of twenty five and then released

(16:39):
if he wasn't charged as. AN adult i guarantee you
this kid was charged as an adult for, these crimes
because that's an, adult sentence that's not a. Juvenile sentence
people need to understand when kids are charged in the, juvenile,
system generally they don't serve a sentence that goes beyond
their twenty. Fifth birthday in, most jurisdictions they can't be
held beyond that if they're charged. As juveniles so there's

(17:00):
some variation depending on, the state but they definitely went
after this, guy hard, and yeah they took.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
Him down so he did that in the, Wrong state
i'll put it. That way. You know one of the,
weird things you know reading it is that, you know
so they're trying to allege that it Was a satanic
group and that, you know they took their directives from,
YOU know i think It's the order Of The nine

(17:26):
angels or something, like That another, satanic group, you know
and the issue that you have, With, that okay and
again if he's been charged at the, state LEVEL and i.
Know that so the other group that was an offshoot
of his group WAS, called cvlt which is Based, in
france so it was like it preceded, his group and
there's like two hundred other groups underneath, his group and
they're all Called. The community, you know they called It

(17:48):
a satanic, you KNOW because i guess WHEN the fbi
Reviewed and i'm sure, you know they probably had behavior analysts,
looking at, you know what this group did or what,
he did and they, probably saw, You Know neo nazi
type Indicat or. Satanic indicators, but again that doesn't make it.
Religiously motivated it doesn't mean that he did it for.
Religious reasons and when you start putting labels ON and

(18:12):
i don't want to get into the nuances of, you
know the government and how we have a grudge against
certain religions and not. Other ones but besides, the point
when you start putting labels on what essentially a, criminal
organization you kind of take away from the fact that
that's exactly what. It is like it's gonna, think, religion.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yeah because at the heart, of it and money is
what drives, you know most.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Of this stuff exactly had nothing to do. With religion
they weren't trying to make a Sacrifice. To satan it.

Speaker 2 (18:33):
Was money, but again this the kids that are most
vulnerable to getting, you know looped into this kind. Of,
stuff again are these kids that, are suggestible these kids
that are they're. Seeking belonging this that's, a huge, you
know like issue or that's a variable that's like missing
in a lot of these. Kids' lives, you know either
they're experiencing some type, of isolation they want to be connected,
to something and unfortunately they get lured into, you know

(18:57):
these dark sort of. Energy spaces and once they get looped.
Into it, you know they're tied to it and they
feel like they can't escape or can't get out of
it because they're being, you know again psychologically held hostage
in the sense that if they shared explicit images of
themselves or they've done anything where they've, compromised themselves then
that gets held, over, them right and they can be

(19:18):
manipulated at that point. In time so it's, you know
it's a dangerous, path obviously, and again, you know regulating it,
is difficult right because a lot of these platforms discord,
and such they're sort of like they're hard to get
to to like to take down because. They're decentralized It's,
not facebook It's.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
Not instagram and that's the other, issue too is that,
you know while these groups all are probably connected in,
some capacity, you know trying to trace where all the
funds are going is almost in a possible task for any.
Government agency and, you know while THEY have i think
two hundreds of the, open investigations to be honest, with
you you're never going to take down an organized. Crime

(19:58):
group let's even talk about, you Know the. ITALIAN families,
i mean look how long that's been. Going, on sure
it's not like it was back in the, you know, the,
seventies eighties and. Early nineties but we still have. The mafiosa,
you know we have it Here. In florida has law
enforcement actions stopped it from growing or stopped it? At,
all no. It hasn't they just. Have adapted and so,
every group and this is the battle for law enforcement

(20:20):
from now into. The future every group is going. To
adapt so this guy got, taken down everybody else gonna get.
Taken down but, Guess what eventually they're going to adapt
and those continue doing what. They're doing it's using a,
different name different, you know different method. Different manners it's.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
Also a LOT easier i Think, TO yeah i mean
it's law enforcement has a harder job now with, technology
advancements right like we, with this, you know with The,
dark web and with, you know these these platforms that.
Are decentralized it's not just a, matter, of oh we're
going to go TO the ceo of this particular you
know company or you know Platform like facebook, or something
and we're over going to. Regulate, them right there's no

(20:59):
regulating going on here in The dark web or in
some of these, you know. These places so you know
that's that's the OTHER challenge i think the law enforcement,
has here, you know in terms of like. Being able like,
you said, you know it's like whack, them all. You
know it's like you take, one down, you know and
then there's another four popping up, somewhere else and you're
not going to eliminate.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
It, Completely okay i'm going to circle back to THE
word i was trying. To find it's called. Fan signing.
Fan signing, oh okay that's a, new.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
Word a new term From The. Urban, dictionary yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:29):
So fan signs that they want you to do carve
their name in your chest or carve your numbers on.
Their body so like that ONE girl i talked, about
earlier like she's stuck with those carved initials in her
body for the rest of.

Speaker 4 (21:41):
Her life and there was some, other followers one of
them holding at gunpoint for someone to slice their neck
and produce blood and have someone.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Drink it just sadistic anything they, can do right to
get it and take, the pictures get.

Speaker 3 (21:59):
THE video, i mean that's exactly what. It is, and again,
you know drinking. The blood we view it as a
religious type thing and. Consciousness organization they're not doing it.
For religion they're doing it for the. Shock value that's
exactly what. It's for, and again this type, of stuff
as crazy as, it sounds, people pay people pay to watch.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
This, stuff yeah and that's a whole other conversation in
terms of the people that consume this content and where
they're at psychologically is concerning, because this, you, know sadistic
masochistic intersection of these kinds of fantasy like behaviors and
a lot of those, are, SEXUALIZED right a lot of
those have a sexual intersectionality, to them and that's how

(22:38):
they get their sexual gratification is through viewing snuff porn things,
like that, You know and that's that's a whole other,
you know we're. Talking psychologically those people that are consuming
that sexual.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
Based, homicide yeah those are a.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
Whole, differtia yeah, those people there's a lot going on
there and they, can't themselves can be depending on. Their
person now the architecture could be dangerous themselves at some
point in the future because they're desensitized to these graphic
displays of violence and it almost gets normalized in their stream.

Speaker 3 (23:11):
Of consciousness. Very, DANGEROUS yeah, i mean, you KNOW and
I mean i guess a good a good way to
kind of compare that is you think about somebody who's
been to, law enforcement, fire ems whatever, that is and
you see all contracrac you shit, every day and then
you got to get desnsitized all, of that like it doesn't.
Bother anymore and with these kids and you know whoever
else with, the group once the money starts, coming in

(23:34):
now it's, Just okay i'm just doing this. To me,
you know it's just another action, for them like it
doesn't have, any value meaning they don't value anybody else's.
Life there and what's interesting, and again you know when
we talk about cult and, You, know satanism, et cetera
it it this reminds me of, you know when we
Had those satanic scares BACK when i was a kid,
growing up when, you know all those tatans wanted to,

(23:55):
kill you and don't touch a Candy from halloween because
there's needles and.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
YOU know lsd and and don't play, and, dragons yeah
don't cla, Dungeon, dragons yeah straight.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
TO hell i still had yet to find the CANDY
with lsd.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
In it but, you know there was another victim of.
This group her Name, was sophia so she had a
history of, mental health being, sexually abused. Different stuff the
group was fat shaming her and then eventually psychologically cohersed
her into cutting a swastika in. Her skin and then
THERE was i in this. Red room so they actually had.

(24:30):
A girl they tried to convince her to hang herself
in her closet while live, streaming it so she ended.
Up surviving but these are some of the victim's stories
of how they, got involved just some of, their vulnerabilities
like the one girl with this, eating disorder, you know
fat shaming her or losing, sixty pounds she continues to

(24:51):
keep going back to these chats for. Some connection why
is she even in? These chats how does she? Get?
Involved right and then getting to the point where you're
on a live stream beheading, a hamster like your? Pet,
hamster like how did we? Get there where are? These parents?
You Know obviously caden's parents weren't available for any comment,

(25:15):
or anything so we don't know really any other information.
On him but it's really sad about these victims, that
survived and a lot of them, aren't counseling have tried to,
kill themselves are. In therapy anything you want to add To, That, craig.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
WELL yeah i mean, It's this this goes back to
LIKE what i said earlier about, parental, oversight right you
parents really need to be mindful of what's really, out
there what's, going on and recognizing vulnerabilities in their.

Speaker 3 (25:49):
Own.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
Kids right, you know not all children. ARE adolescents i
think are as succepceptible to being kind of lured into
this these kinds OF organizations i think they're is a certain,
you know psychological vulnerability and profile that makes some kids
more likely to be victimized in this way or taken
advantage of. And exploited and again it goes back to,

(26:12):
you know again you mentioned this one girl's she had an.
ABUSE history i mean that's a common theme across a lot.
Of these, you know when children, are abused that.

Speaker 3 (26:21):
Does open, up, vulnerabilities absolutely.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
But there's also that psychological piece. As well so again
having that real high need to belong and feeling like you're,
not connected belonging and looking for that, connection, somewhere wherever
wherever you can, find, It right and, so unfortunately, you
know if they find themselves connected with somebody in the
inn organization, like this then they go down it goes

(26:45):
down the, rabbit hole and, you know they get. Lured
in right once they have they have the dirt, on you, you know,
the kids, you know whatever it is that they, don't want,
you know shared with the public or, posted publicly they're.

Speaker 3 (26:56):
Hooked in so.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Then, having that, you know parents need to then have
that conversation with your kids about if, this happens, you
know what do, You, do like what should you do when?
This happens and, you know the thing that we don't
want them to do is to try to conceal this from,
their parents right or try to hide it because and
then try to figure out how to, you know solve,
it themselves because.

Speaker 3 (27:16):
They don't have the resources to.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
DO that i think having that conversation with your kids about,
you know this is the stuff that's going on. Out there,
you know this isn't this is happening in the. Real
world and this IS what i want you. To do
if someone ever, contacts you or someone ever asks you for,
you KNOW a nudi picture of yourself or, you know anything,
like that that's how.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
This starts, You know i've got a case.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Right now, you know it's a, confidence evaluation, but anyway it's,
you know and it's like this very thing happened with this.
Particular defendant, you know he started he got nude photos of,
this victim this pre, adolescent victim he got, nude photos
and then he used him against her to lure and
basically get her to engage in. Illegal conduct so it doesn't,

(27:58):
just happen, you know through. Online platforms it happens in
actual physical, you know contact and physical spaces where, you
know that's how kids then get sexually exploited by adults.
As WELL so, i mean it's, happening online but it's
also it happens.

Speaker 3 (28:16):
In the real.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
World too it doesn't just always. Happen Online as DATA
and i, both know because we get we get these
cases all.

Speaker 3 (28:23):
The Time and i'll just add, to that it's not
it's not confined to one particular, religion either, you know
if they, Want to, oh no just aspect of. This too. You,
Know again i've worked investigations where, you know many people
from many different types of religions are involved with this type.
Of stuff so, you know one religion is not more

(28:43):
apt to conduct this type you know of criminal activity versus.
Another one, you know nor is one religion more violent than.
Another one, you know they all have their. Crazy ideologies,
but hey when you're the media and you're making the
story and you're trying to scare everybody into like keep
an eye or kills what sells well necessary drinking blood and,

(29:03):
you know killing your kids, well. Right, sensationalism, yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah so i'd. Say definitely craig, was saying talk to.
YOUR kids i roll play with. MY kids i have.
A teenager we've role played all. These scenarios and the
point of role playing is you also see how, they
respond what they know and what they. Don't know so,
you know if you see a deficit and what, they
know like they don't know how to handle this or

(29:28):
they would do the, wrong thing you just role played
with them And they're and YOU know i always roll
play with. My son someone comes to the school to
pick you up and, they say your mom sent me
and they get in, the car like pick? Me up
how we roll play? Through? That? Right seriously like? Role play,
you know anybody asks you for all, these things roll
actually role play and have them see how. They RESPOND

(29:51):
and i, tell you like you never talk to. The
cops we don't even know who, They, are like where's
your Badge like i'm, Your parent i'm, Your adult i'm.
Your protector so you could take your kid's iPad like
you can take, it right take.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Their, phone well parental controls, as well and things that
you know that might, you know limit what they can
access OR also i think available. As well, but boy
that gives me a good idea about putting together a
training for parents on how to handle these types of
very scenarios with role plays and.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
With Activity, b yeah that would be a what a.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
Great idea i'll see if my son wants to participate
how he, actually responds because you know he's pretty well.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
Trained well also throwing what not to, you know what
not to do or what you know what what behaviors
will get, you know will get a child into trouble
right and to Where they it's kind, of like, you
know there's a parallel here in the. Prison system, you
know we call the anatomy of, a Setup which eric knows.
All about i'm sure it's a similar thing right where
you know inmates will they look for those vulnerable clinicians

(30:56):
or those free staff or even correctional staff all, the
time and they know they can figure out who, is
suggestible who is more vulnerable. To this, and boy once they,
lock in they get. You man, And boy i'll tell
YOU we've i personally have seen, you know in these,
are psychologists psychologists who are trained you, Know, what oh
we're cologists who you know are now having sexual relationships

(31:17):
with inmates and bringing in contraband all.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
Of this but you, know what the common denominator for
all that is the reason why they, do it the
same reason for every other type. Of crime those crimes,
money monetary man. MONETARY monetary, i mean, you know bringing
a cell phone in. THE prison a cell phone is
about one thousand dollars in.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
THE prison calli well it was two thousand and now
it's it's, less now by, the way Because, in california
the inmates have tablets that they can now talk to,
you know.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
Family, with yeah they do have that Here. In florida
but people, still have, you know cell phones because they
want to Go, on facebook they want to post It,
on instagram, you know they want to organize a head
outside or so it's.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Talk about Contra contrad so some of these people are
locked up that we've, talked, About right so there's another
guy Named. Al meda so he's In The Metropolitan detention Center.
In brooklyn he got a. CONTRABAND phone i don't, know how.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
Because the Bureau of prisons. Is terrible what how could?

Speaker 1 (32:11):
That be he has a picture of himself with his
shirt off and a homemade shank right in, each hand
and he has. Some comments he's, locked up, you know he's,
in chainel he's in shackles with his hands. And feet
but in, the courtroom last time he was, in court he,
yells OUT when i get out, Of here i'm gonna.
Kill y'all i'm gonna come after your.

Speaker 3 (32:31):
Fucking kids let's. Be honest the number of TIMES that
i heard that over my career and it's yet. To
HAPPEN and i don't want to take away from the, Fact,
that okay you got a guy who's, you know in.
Federal custody he was making a direct. To, you yeah,
it's scary but let's. Be honest most of them don't
have the means or opportunity to. DO this i can't

(32:52):
tell you how MANY times i Heard in may tell
ME when i Worked that i'm going to kill you
when you, Get out i'm gonna, you, know uh sexual
assault your, family Members and, i'm like, all, Right dude
i'll meet you when you. Get out just let. Me,
know yeah happy to help when you're when, you're out
you show up at the how. You know but but
in regards, to contraband, you know and and the way
that most of these inmates get these cell, phones in,
of course it's. BY staff i mean a lot, of,

(33:14):
times yes visitors do take, contraband in but it's a
lot harder these days for a visitor to get contraband
through security checkpoint then An is florida officer to get
through security or. A NURSE and i gave an example that,
you KNOW when i WORKED in DC and i was
assigned to. Maational security part of what we did on
the gang UNIT that i was on was that no reviewed.
Phone calls we, gather intelligence and, you know we were

(33:36):
able To determine remember one time there was, a nurse
nurse bringing in cell phones. In return she wasn't, getting
money you know what she was getting in return for
the cell. Phones, sex yeah there's always, two things it's
either money. Or sex and that was That. In, florida
yeah of course. It, Was yeah And, so eric what
happened to? That nurse did she get she. Got, arrested
yeah oh she. Did it she. Got, prosecuted huh well WE,

(33:59):
in dc. They prosecuted we prosecuted. A lot, so yes
she's terminated.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
And Prosecuted, in california that doesn't happen.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
Very, often now let me tell you there are people
that have gone quietly and you know they just, got fired.
Lost certification they release them and that's the end. Of
it but if we had to call in, you know the,
inspect's office, you know to do the criminal, investigation side
you're going to. Get charged so and we have to do.
Extra work you're getting charged, for well and you should.

(34:27):
Get charged and, You know i'm a.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
STRONG advocate i don't care if you're, a nurse, a doctor,
a psychologist or a. Correctional officer you pull, this shit you,
get arrested and you get sent. To Prison because i'll
tell you what that, Sets us that sets us. A
standard right other. People go you know that might not
be worth the risk me going.

Speaker 3 (34:47):
To prison and when we talk about gangs and, organized
crime you know how dangerous is it to have a
bunch of cell phones in a? Confinement unit remember that
it was a. Very dangerous this is a confinement union
this is, you know this was our either disciplinary offenders
or the worst inmates we had in the comment they
could not be out. In public you don't want them
having a. Cell. Phone yeah, some people, you know they get.
A cephone they want to call their wife or their. Eighteen,

(35:08):
girlfriends yeah but some are engaged in, you know, organized,
crime right directing operations from whatever is inside. The prison that's. The,
biggest yeah that fires.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
ME up i get sick and tired to HEAR when
i hear about THESE and i hear it all the
time from, you KNOW because i have connections still with
you know folks in the prison system and kel oh
yeah they got walked off because they were bringing, you
know cell phones in. Or whatever and, it's like, all
right where's the criminal prosecution? On, this, WELL uh i
don't know that that's going.

Speaker 3 (35:31):
To happen and that IS why i, were TIRED because i.
WAS tired i was tired of doing, my investigations, you
know listening to, phone calls, reviewing mail finding officers on,
phone calls talking, to inmates and then nothing gets done about.
Nothing HAPPENS so i, was like, you, know what. FUCK
it i could go off BE a pi and not give,
a shit THAT'S what, i did.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
You Know, and craig let's talk about for, a second
because we want to talk about some of these corrupt
CEOs that get in there and how does? This happen
how does?

Speaker 3 (36:04):
This, Happen, hmmm oh we. DON'T know i. Don't know
it's probably the poor. Background check maybe the.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
Background investigation where they have evidence that someone was, gang affiliated,
you know as a teenager and probably still has gang
CONNECTIONS through i, Don't know facebook or their social media
and when asked about that during the background the applicant
says or doesn't respond to the background, investigators inquiries, you know,
multiple times and then they clear the person through the

(36:31):
background and then they come to, the psychologist and the, psychologist.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
Says huh this. Is strange what? About?

Speaker 2 (36:37):
This right and then we see a profile a protocol
that suggests there's an antisocial personality architecture here and this
person did not, you know was not transparent about, you
know their background to the, background investigator yet they still.
Got cleared that's how these, Things. Happen dana and.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
Guess what so psychologists like us can do these psyche
valves and they were paying so the government had contracts
where they're paying PSYCHOLOGISTS like us one hundred and fifty
dollars to write like a seven page psychological report with
testing and then barely pay you like minimum weight. To

(37:20):
do and then if they, don't pass you're saying this
person is a, red flag and they get angry with
you because they're. Just desperate we need to just clear
them and let them in because we. Need staff so
they basically ignore your report and then you. Get penalized if, you're,
Like well i'm gonna have to do if you want
me to testify or write an additional, supplemental report you don't.
Get paid so the psychologist is incentivized to just pass

(37:44):
people to. Not care how do you think all these CEOs?
Got in there was like one whole prison where all
the CEOs were, raping women then shut down, the prison
transport Them, to texas and, we're like oh, my god how?

Speaker 3 (37:54):
That, happened well this, is yeah this is.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Happening everywhere by, the way it's not just, you, know
yeah how we got on the topic.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
From gangs we.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
Got there i'll tell you how exactly how we, got
there because it is connected to what we're. Talking about,
you know we talked, about suggestibility vulnerability of like you,
know staff, you know, inside prisons can we get manipulated just?

Speaker 3 (38:12):
Like kids. YOU know i, watched, officers sergeants, you know
this is command staff forcing inmates to. Eat tobacco, you
know they would find TOBACCO and I had i had
a sergeant who made the inmate eat it was probably like.
Eight cigarettes eat. The Cigarettes and, i'm, LIKE dude i
fucking can't deal with. This shit, YOU know i may
complaints about officers who were interfering with my. Gang investigations,

(38:32):
you know they would go find out that a social
member was being interviewed for, you know, gang something and
they would go, and try, you know try to be
friend of. That inmate, i'm, like dude what?

Speaker 2 (38:40):
The fuck?

Speaker 3 (38:40):
You know and these are the problems that you have
when you don't do thorough backgrounds. On individuals, you know
you don't do proper. Background INVESTIGATIONS and i guesstill a
number EVEN when i was the. Entire, process like the
most important QUESTION that i can remember being asked when
in my interview was, this question do you have any
problem shooting? An inmate that was the most important question they.

(39:02):
Asked me they didn't ask two shits about what my.
Gang affiliation before the. Interview ended the warden looks at me,
and says if, you're hired do you have any problem shooting?

Speaker 2 (39:11):
An inmate the QUESTION that i got, asked was, you
know do would you have a problem taking a?

Speaker 3 (39:16):
Human LIFE and i said. Absolutely not OF course.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
I would have no problem. With that someone's like firing
a gun. At me they're, gonna yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
Rounds are gonna, be, RETURNED folks i. DON'T care i
guess in our situation is different because in, our situation
if they touched, that fence it's, deadly FORCE which i
DON'T always i didn't always agree, with that, you know
and it was it was, you know and Now that,
I'M older i, Think back, I'm, like EH would i
really have shot somebody for trying to climb? A fence?

(39:44):
You know unfortunately that's what the. Law was it's your
rules of engagement in. That, state, yeah yeah it doesn't
matter if they're, in therefore, you know driving to, spend license, you,
Know felony you touch, that fence, you die, All right
now that we talked about homicide and, everything, else, well
yeah it's justifiable, humsde, guess, right now this extortion thing
is is a.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
BIG problem, i mean it's it's bigger than a bigger
PROBLEM than i thought.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
It was. The thing it's existed for, a WHILE and
i mean even back in early two thousand, and nineties
we had Groups of nigerian scammers that would scam People
on skype, and stuff doing what, we'll call, you know.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Sex stortion you know where you will write or they
lock your computer and, they're like we've got you masturbating
on your camera and you.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
Know, what, look guys. Anybody listening if somebody reaches out
to you, and, says oh if you don't get me eight,
Thousand dollars i'm gonna put this on porn, up whatever go.
For it put. It on i'll be a. FUCKING star i.
DON'T care, i like go, for man send it, out
everywhere put it on.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
The.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
Web, Man yeah i'll make money off. OF it i.
Will averatie. You know but when it, involves children that's
when we have. A problem i, will say maybe for
guys we're more or less likely to be concerned about
being online than. For FEMALES maybe i.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Don't, know, WELL no i think there is. A gender,
you're right there's a gender. DIFFERENCE here i think that
the girls are more again more vulnerable to be exploited
in this way than, guys are, you KNOW and. I
don't most of the cases, are female right that we
see who are, engaging in you know self injurious behaviors
are the things that are that they're they're telling them. To,
do otherwise, you know we're going to share your we're

(41:12):
going to send your family.

Speaker 3 (41:13):
These pictures of you or these, you know these. Explicit
photos and, you know again when we talk about, you know,
not again not every male or female thinks the same
that YOU and. I do but, you know for You
and i'll, somebody said oh you know if you know
do doesn't take all?

Speaker 1 (41:26):
Your?

Speaker 3 (41:26):
Pictures? Okay cool, you know like whatever hour, FOR myself
i don't give a shit and what anybody else, IS
like i, don't care. You, know.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
Okay what lessons did we learn? Here, today uh don't,
do crimes don't, commit crimes, Thank, you eric thank you.
Very much don't send.

Speaker 3 (41:47):
Nudes nudes like craigs, of, nudes. Nudies. Nudi's well the
biggest thing is pay attention to what your kids. Are doing,
you know your lessons. Are doing look at their, you
know look at, their phone, because again, you know these
situations are not just, you know it's not some dude
in a white van driving around. The neighborhood people are
kidnapping your kids. From target it's happening in the digital

(42:09):
aid and only going to continue getting worse and unless
you pay attention to. The signs and again it's not
just signs, of abuse not just signs of, your children
but also look for signs of them getting involved in
this type. Of stuff, you know changes, of dressing, style, changing,
yeah exactly, behavioral, changes yeah we have saying just how,
they dress, you know how, they act how, they talk,
you know are they paint you know again seven six

(42:30):
four had a very specific. Emblem picture, you know is
your kid drawing, you know very particular images all. The time,
you know look for these types of patterns and things,
as parents, you know don't just shove your phone in
your kid's face and, be, like okay, you, know go,
You know i'm gonna make mac and, cheese.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
Now yeah and take your electronic device away from your kid.
At night they should be in like some some parents
will like let their have the electronic device on.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
Their nightstand nothing good happens. After, dark yeah THAT'S all.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
I get, All, right craig any?

Speaker 3 (42:58):
Final comments eric sum.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
This up, really, well right which is just, you, know,
parent parent because we're talking about adolescents and kids, right,
Here right so parents have to, you know take the
lead here and be involved in their kids' lives in
terms of, you know their. Digital lives and, that's yes,
it's intrusive and yes kids want autonomy when they, get
older right when they're, In adolescents but there's a trade.

(43:20):
Off here how much autonomy do you want to give
your kids knowing what's going on you know today and.
WHAT'S happening, i mean IT'S the i think these the
threats are, absolutely real And like eric, SAID that i
think they're going. To grow they're going to continue to
get to grow because of this. Monetary incentive these, monetary incentives,
you know they always can, breed this right. It can

(43:44):
so that would be my takeaway or, you know take a.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Takeaway message, All, Right well i'm Headed To juvenile hall
detention facility to interview a team based on some crimes.
He's committed so this is the type of work. We
Do so CRAIG and i, these reports, you know and
sometimes the court is looking for us to. BANK recommendations
i interview people, LIKE this i do their psychical they're testing.

(44:09):
Right recommendations so if you need a, forensic psychologist you
can find me at psychologydoctor. Dot Com, and eric where
can they? Find you we NEED a pi on. Your
team we gotta gotta do some. Sleuth work they.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
Can always use the website at zuli at pa dot
com or our new name because, we did we did change.
Our name we are rebranding sleuth iq. At Io. Who,
yeah yeah, it's, nice right like that sluth. Like you,
YEAH yeah i.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Like, it yeah and you should definitely even if you're
you don't run a background check on anyone you're going
to date or if your kid is get involved, with
someone you Can.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
Call eric it's more flund to just ate them and wait.
Till later figure. It, out yeah figure. It out, life short,
you know you only, live once, you know. Adventure thing
this is Probably why i'm divorced by MYSELF because i just,
you know backgrounds.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
Like, everybody okay wrap, It, up craig where can they?
Find you and then we're gonna.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
Peace out they can find me.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
THROUGH you I mean i'm connected on, your website so that's. It's,
easier yeah your website's easier to find, than mine but
it is, quite.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
YES and i would like to say we're gonna start doing,
podcast episodes just only once. A. Month now i'm gonna
be out of state a lot, this summer and my
son and daughter in law are having their, first Child
so i'm going to be, a Grandma so i'm taking.
Time off so we'll just be producing episodes once. A
month but if you have a specific topic you want

(45:35):
us to, talk about connect with me on. Social media
let us know what you want to, hear about and
we will come back and we will research that and
talk about that for you so you can learn more about.
Forensic psychology so thank you so much for joining. Us
today and that's It For. Killer psychologists thank you for
Listening To killer psychologist to watch full, video episodes or

(45:58):
if you want to interact with me And Find killer psychologists.
On YouTube you can also get notified of new episodes
by signing up in my. Stand, store now if you
want to work, with me you can book. A console
my website is psychologydoctor. Dot com that's psychology dr. Dot

(46:19):
com

All Episodes

72 - "764"

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}72 - "764"