In this episode of Know Your Faith, Catholic apologist Robert Madrigal talks about Purgatory in the Old Testament and the Catholic Catechism. (May 17, 2023)
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(00:00):
You're listening to WCAT radio, yourhome for authentic Catholic programming. JT Everyone
out there listening to WCAT radio dotcom. My name is Robert Madrigale,
the host of this show Know YourFaith, a forum for those who know
(00:20):
the faith, a source for thosewho like to get to know the faith,
AKA Unapologetically Apologetics. On this show, we talk about Catholic apologetics,
and we are unapologetic about our lovefor God, our love for Christ,
and our love for the Catholic Church. Today's show is part one in a
series of five on the Catholic doctrineof purgatory. Today we're going to examine
(00:47):
the question of whether purgatory is inthe Bible or not. Today's readings come
from the Old Testament, which seemsto describe a purification process, and this
is in line with what we Catholicsbelieve about purgatory. I aim to show
(01:07):
that the idea of a purification processbefore we can enter heaven is not a
twentieth century invention of the Catholic Church. If it's written in the Old Testament,
then it was given to us directly, by directly from God through the
prophets. Then the prophets wrote aboutit in Jewish scripture and what later became
(01:30):
the Bible. But before we getinto tonight's show, I would like to
start off right, and that wouldbe with a prayer. As we begin
our prayer in the name of theFather and of the Son and of the
Holy Spirit. Heavenly Father, wouldcome to you in great thanksgiving today for
this opportunity to come together as brothersand sisters in Christ, so that we
(01:53):
may learn more about our faith.For the sake of defending the faith,
we ask that you grant us thestrength to explain and defend our faith with
patience and charity, and to seechallenges to our faith as a chance to
evangelize and to spread the love andpeace of Christ to all whom we meet,
(02:16):
and to do this through the exampleof self sacrifice that Christ provides for
us through his death on the cross. We ask this through the name of
Christ, our Lord. Amen,and we'll end our prayer in the name
of the Father and of the Sonand of the Holy Spirit. Okay,
so let's go ahead and take alook at some of the verses from the
(02:39):
Old Testament that show that the Bibledoes give us a description of a purification
process that we go through after death. And this, of course is in
contrast to the Protestant view that weare completely forgiven and ready to enter heaven
here on earth by saying the Sinnerprayer during an ultra call. And the
(03:02):
funny thing is, what we cando is take what it describes in the
Bible and compare it to the Catechismof the Catholic Church, and what we
find is an exact match. Solet's start off by looking into what we
learn about purgatory in the Catechism.Now, this will define what purgatory is
(03:28):
according to the Catholic Church, notaccording to someone else's interpretation of Catholic doctrine.
So here it is the Catholic Catechism, Part ten thirty Roman Numeral three,
the final purification or purgatory. Allwho die in God's grace and friendship
(03:51):
but still imperfectly purified, are indeedassured of their eternal salvation, but after
death they undergo purification so as toachieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy
of heaven. The Church gives thisname purgatory to the purification of the elect,
(04:16):
which is entirely different from the punishmentof the damned. Okay, So
now what I want to do islook at what we find in the Book
of Zachariah, chapter thirteen, verseeight, I'm sorry, excuse me,
verses eight and nine. And thenwe could compare what it says in the
(04:38):
Catechism to what it says in theBible. In the whole of the land
says the Lord, two thirds shallbe cut off and perish, and one
third shall be left alive. AndI will put this third into the fire
and refine them as one refined silver, and test them as gold is tested.
(05:02):
They will call upon my name,and I will answer them. I
will say they are my people,and they will say the Lord is my
God. So I just want tostart by saying with those verses, we
might be tempted to think that whatwe're reading about refers to the suffering that
(05:25):
takes place here on earth, andwe're reading about a prophecy of the coming
of Christ. But if you knowanything about refining silver and gold, you
take the silver or the gold andyou place it directly into a fire,
Corresponding with what the verses say.The heat from the fire takes all all
(05:48):
the impurities of the silver and thegold and that way it is refined or
purified, if you like. Sowhat these verses are talking about is purification
after being put into a fire,not once saved, always saved after one
short prayer during an altar call,or anything to that effect. So let's
(06:13):
go ahead and take a look atthese verses from both the Bible and the
Catechism. First comparison, Bible,in the whole of the Land declares the
Lord two thirds shall be cut offin parish, and one third shall be
left alive. Catechism the Church givesthis name purgatory to the purification of the
(06:35):
elect, which is entirely different fromthe punishment of the damned. Okay,
So there are two groups that boththe Bible and the Catechism talk about.
The Bible mentions two thirds that arecut off, that will be cut off
and perish, and one third thatis left alive. The Catechism the mentions
(07:00):
the purification of the elect and thepunishment of the damned. M isn't that
interesting? Okay? So the secondcomparison Bible, and I will put this
third into the fire and refine themas one resfines silver, and test them
(07:26):
as gold is tested. And Iwill and they will call upon my name,
and I will answer them. Iwill say, they are my people,
and they will say the Lord ismy God Catechism. But after death
they undergo purification so as to achievethe holiness necessary to enter the joy of
(07:51):
heaven. So the Bible mentions findingsilver, the Catechism mentions purification. The
Bible states, they will call uponmy name, and I will answer them.
They will say, excuse me.I will say, they are my
(08:13):
people, and they will say theLord is my God. The Catechism says
to achieve the holiness necessary to enterheaven. Now that's as close to word
for word as we can get.But I also think about I also want
(08:33):
to ask you to think about this. The differences between what we read in
the Bible and what we read inthe Catechism show us that the Catholic Church
is not just plagiarizing the Bible.Okay, well, I do have a
couple other verses to go over ifyou're still not convinced. Here are some
(08:58):
other Old Testament verse which mention apurification process, and this one is just
a little more clear. Let's takea look at the Book of Malachi,
chapter three, Verses two, andthree. But who can endure on the
day of his coming? Who canstand when he appears? For he is
(09:20):
like refiner's fire and fuller's soap.He will sit as a refiner and purifier
of silver, and he will purifythe sons of Levi and refine them like
gold and silver, and they willbring offerings of righteousness to the Lord.
(09:43):
Here again, one might be temptedto interpret this as the suffering that takes
place here on earth, and theprophecy refers to when Christ would be born.
But there is no denying that thelanguage that is used here sounds more
like what we find in the Bookof Revelation when we read on the day
of His coming? Or who canstand when he appears? So let's make
(10:07):
the first verse by verse comparison.Both the Bible and the Catechism mentioned purification.
The Bible states, and he willsit as a refiner and purifier of
silver, and he will purify thesons of Levi and refine them as gold
and silver, or like gold andsilver, excuse me, and the Catechism
(10:30):
states, but after death they willundergo purification. Now that's even closer than
the last few verses that we werecomparing that is as close to an exact
match as we can get without plagiarizing. Okay, now here's the final comparison
Bible, and they will bring offeringsof righteousness to the Lord Catechism so as
(10:58):
to achieve the holiness necessary to enterthe joy of Heaven. Now, I
can't see anything being any clearer thanthat. What we're talking about here is
that while we live our lives hereon earth, we fall short of the
glory of God, as mentioned inRomans are the Letter to the Romans chapter
(11:24):
three, verses twenty three and twentyfour. Furthermore, just as it says
in the Gospel of Matthew chapter five, verse forty eight, therefore you must
be perfect as your heavenly Father isperfect. So unless you believe that you
(11:45):
will die in the state of perfection. In a state of perfection, we
should all welcome a purification process afterdeath so we are wholly enough to enter
heaven. Also, since these versescome show that the purification of process was
written about in the Old Testament,this is not an idea of the early
(12:09):
Catholic Church, and it's not anidea that the medieval Catholic Church or the
modern Catholic Church came up with thepurification is not an invention of man.
If the Jews of the Old Testamentwrote about it, then this teaching was
(12:30):
given us, given to us bythe prophets, and so then it became
that. So then it is revelationfrom God since it came from the prophets.
And lastly, as one final note, if you are a or if
you know a Bible Christian who saysthat we are misinterpreting these verses as Catholics,
(12:56):
then they can no longer say thatTory is not in the Bible,
as the argument of misinterpretation openly admitsthat it is in the Bible. Well,
that's all we have time for tonight, so I have to say goodbye
to everyone out there listening to WCATradio dot com. Please join us once
(13:18):
again for part two of this serieson Purgatory, where we will look at
New Testament scripture and what it sayson purgatory. I am looking forward to
spending this time with anyone out thereand everyone out there who are interested in
listening to what I have to sayand to hear from you as well.
Please email me at Madrigal dot Robberat ymail dot com. That's spelled m
(13:43):
A d R I g A Ldot R O B E r t at
ymail dot com, and please feelfree to send me any questions and even
more importantly comments. I am thefirst or I will be the first to
admit that I'm wrong if I saysomething and correct. I would like to
call out to all the Catholics outthere who are listening to pray for fallen
(14:07):
Catholics, for their return to thechurch, and to pray for the souls
in purgatory. So with that,let's go ahead and end this show right,
and that would be with a prayer. We begin our prayer in the
name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit. How
many Father would come to you ingreat thanksgiving today for this opportunity to come
(14:28):
together as brothers and sisters in Christ, so that we may learn more about
the faith. For the sake ofdefending the faith, we ask that you
grant us the strength to explain anddefend our faith with patience and charity,
and to see challenges to our faithas a chance to evangelize and to spread
(14:50):
the love and peace of Christ toall whom we meet, and to do
this through the example of self sacrificethat Christ provides for us through his death
on the cross. And we askthis in the name of Christ, our
Lord. Amen, we under ourprayer in the name of the Father and
of the Son and of the HolySpirit. Okay, So until our next
(15:11):
show, please take care and mayGod be with you and everything you do.
Good buying, God bless Hello,God's beloved. I'm Annabel Moseley,
author, professor of theology and hostof then Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood
on WCAT Radio. I invite youto listen in and find inspiration along this
(15:33):
sacred journey. We're traveling together tomake our lives a masterpiece. End with
God's grace, become saints. Joinme Annabel Mosley for then Sings My Soul
and Destination Sainthood on WCAT Radio.God bless you. Remember you are never
alone. God is always with here. Thank you for listening to a production
(16:03):
of WCAT Radio. Please join usan omission of evangelization and don't forget.
Love lifts up where knowledge takes flight.
You're listening to WCAT radio, yourhome for authentic Catholic programming. JT Everyone
out there listening to WCAT radio dotcom. My name is Robert Madrigale,
the host of this show Know YourFaith, a forum for those who know
(00:20):
the faith, a source for thosewho like to get to know the faith,
AKA Unapologetically Apologetics. On this show, we talk about Catholic apologetics,
and we are unapologetic about our lovefor God, our love for Christ,
and our love for the Catholic Church. Today's show is part one in a
series of five on the Catholic doctrineof purgatory. Today we're going to examine
(00:47):
the question of whether purgatory is inthe Bible or not. Today's readings come
from the Old Testament, which seemsto describe a purification process, and this
is in line with what we Catholicsbelieve about purgatory. I aim to show
(01:07):
that the idea of a purification processbefore we can enter heaven is not a
twentieth century invention of the Catholic Church. If it's written in the Old Testament,
then it was given to us directly, by directly from God through the
prophets. Then the prophets wrote aboutit in Jewish scripture and what later became
(01:30):
the Bible. But before we getinto tonight's show, I would like to
start off right, and that wouldbe with a prayer. As we begin
our prayer in the name of theFather and of the Son and of the
Holy Spirit. Heavenly Father, wouldcome to you in great thanksgiving today for
this opportunity to come together as brothersand sisters in Christ, so that we
(01:53):
may learn more about our faith.For the sake of defending the faith,
we ask that you grant us thestrength to explain and defend our faith with
patience and charity, and to seechallenges to our faith as a chance to
evangelize and to spread the love andpeace of Christ to all whom we meet,
(02:16):
and to do this through the exampleof self sacrifice that Christ provides for
us through his death on the cross. We ask this through the name of
Christ, our Lord. Amen,and we'll end our prayer in the name
of the Father and of the Sonand of the Holy Spirit. Okay,
so let's go ahead and take alook at some of the verses from the
(02:39):
Old Testament that show that the Bibledoes give us a description of a purification
process that we go through after death. And this, of course is in
contrast to the Protestant view that weare completely forgiven and ready to enter heaven
here on earth by saying the Sinnerprayer during an ultra call. And the
(03:02):
funny thing is, what we cando is take what it describes in the
Bible and compare it to the Catechismof the Catholic Church, and what we
find is an exact match. Solet's start off by looking into what we
learn about purgatory in the Catechism.Now, this will define what purgatory is
(03:28):
according to the Catholic Church, notaccording to someone else's interpretation of Catholic doctrine.
So here it is the Catholic Catechism, Part ten thirty Roman Numeral three,
the final purification or purgatory. Allwho die in God's grace and friendship
(03:51):
but still imperfectly purified, are indeedassured of their eternal salvation, but after
death they undergo purification so as toachieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy
of heaven. The Church gives thisname purgatory to the purification of the elect,
(04:16):
which is entirely different from the punishmentof the damned. Okay, So
now what I want to do islook at what we find in the Book
of Zachariah, chapter thirteen, verseeight, I'm sorry, excuse me,
verses eight and nine. And thenwe could compare what it says in the
(04:38):
Catechism to what it says in theBible. In the whole of the land
says the Lord, two thirds shallbe cut off and perish, and one
third shall be left alive. AndI will put this third into the fire
and refine them as one refined silver, and test them as gold is tested.
(05:02):
They will call upon my name,and I will answer them. I
will say they are my people,and they will say the Lord is my
God. So I just want tostart by saying with those verses, we
might be tempted to think that whatwe're reading about refers to the suffering that
(05:25):
takes place here on earth, andwe're reading about a prophecy of the coming
of Christ. But if you knowanything about refining silver and gold, you
take the silver or the gold andyou place it directly into a fire,
Corresponding with what the verses say.The heat from the fire takes all all
(05:48):
the impurities of the silver and thegold and that way it is refined or
purified, if you like. Sowhat these verses are talking about is purification
after being put into a fire,not once saved, always saved after one
short prayer during an altar call,or anything to that effect. So let's
(06:13):
go ahead and take a look atthese verses from both the Bible and the
Catechism. First comparison, Bible,in the whole of the Land declares the
Lord two thirds shall be cut offin parish, and one third shall be
left alive. Catechism the Church givesthis name purgatory to the purification of the
(06:35):
elect, which is entirely different fromthe punishment of the damned. Okay,
So there are two groups that boththe Bible and the Catechism talk about.
The Bible mentions two thirds that arecut off, that will be cut off
and perish, and one third thatis left alive. The Catechism the mentions
(07:00):
the purification of the elect and thepunishment of the damned. M isn't that
interesting? Okay? So the secondcomparison Bible, and I will put this
third into the fire and refine themas one resfines silver, and test them
(07:26):
as gold is tested. And Iwill and they will call upon my name,
and I will answer them. Iwill say, they are my people,
and they will say the Lord ismy God Catechism. But after death
they undergo purification so as to achievethe holiness necessary to enter the joy of
(07:51):
heaven. So the Bible mentions findingsilver, the Catechism mentions purification. The
Bible states, they will call uponmy name, and I will answer them.
They will say, excuse me.I will say, they are my
(08:13):
people, and they will say theLord is my God. The Catechism says
to achieve the holiness necessary to enterheaven. Now that's as close to word
for word as we can get.But I also think about I also want
(08:33):
to ask you to think about this. The differences between what we read in
the Bible and what we read inthe Catechism show us that the Catholic Church
is not just plagiarizing the Bible.Okay, well, I do have a
couple other verses to go over ifyou're still not convinced. Here are some
(08:58):
other Old Testament verse which mention apurification process, and this one is just
a little more clear. Let's takea look at the Book of Malachi,
chapter three, Verses two, andthree. But who can endure on the
day of his coming? Who canstand when he appears? For he is
(09:20):
like refiner's fire and fuller's soap.He will sit as a refiner and purifier
of silver, and he will purifythe sons of Levi and refine them like
gold and silver, and they willbring offerings of righteousness to the Lord.
(09:43):
Here again, one might be temptedto interpret this as the suffering that takes
place here on earth, and theprophecy refers to when Christ would be born.
But there is no denying that thelanguage that is used here sounds more
like what we find in the Bookof Revelation when we read on the day
of His coming? Or who canstand when he appears? So let's make
(10:07):
the first verse by verse comparison.Both the Bible and the Catechism mentioned purification.
The Bible states, and he willsit as a refiner and purifier of
silver, and he will purify thesons of Levi and refine them as gold
and silver, or like gold andsilver, excuse me, and the Catechism
(10:30):
states, but after death they willundergo purification. Now that's even closer than
the last few verses that we werecomparing that is as close to an exact
match as we can get without plagiarizing. Okay, now here's the final comparison
Bible, and they will bring offeringsof righteousness to the Lord Catechism so as
(10:58):
to achieve the holiness necessary to enterthe joy of Heaven. Now, I
can't see anything being any clearer thanthat. What we're talking about here is
that while we live our lives hereon earth, we fall short of the
glory of God, as mentioned inRomans are the Letter to the Romans chapter
(11:24):
three, verses twenty three and twentyfour. Furthermore, just as it says
in the Gospel of Matthew chapter five, verse forty eight, therefore you must
be perfect as your heavenly Father isperfect. So unless you believe that you
(11:45):
will die in the state of perfection. In a state of perfection, we
should all welcome a purification process afterdeath so we are wholly enough to enter
heaven. Also, since these versescome show that the purification of process was
written about in the Old Testament,this is not an idea of the early
(12:09):
Catholic Church, and it's not anidea that the medieval Catholic Church or the
modern Catholic Church came up with thepurification is not an invention of man.
If the Jews of the Old Testamentwrote about it, then this teaching was
(12:30):
given us, given to us bythe prophets, and so then it became
that. So then it is revelationfrom God since it came from the prophets.
And lastly, as one final note, if you are a or if
you know a Bible Christian who saysthat we are misinterpreting these verses as Catholics,
(12:56):
then they can no longer say thatTory is not in the Bible,
as the argument of misinterpretation openly admitsthat it is in the Bible. Well,
that's all we have time for tonight, so I have to say goodbye
to everyone out there listening to WCATradio dot com. Please join us once
(13:18):
again for part two of this serieson Purgatory, where we will look at
New Testament scripture and what it sayson purgatory. I am looking forward to
spending this time with anyone out thereand everyone out there who are interested in
listening to what I have to sayand to hear from you as well.
Please email me at Madrigal dot Robberat ymail dot com. That's spelled m
(13:43):
A d R I g A Ldot R O B E r t at
ymail dot com, and please feelfree to send me any questions and even
more importantly comments. I am thefirst or I will be the first to
admit that I'm wrong if I saysomething and correct. I would like to
call out to all the Catholics outthere who are listening to pray for fallen
(14:07):
Catholics, for their return to thechurch, and to pray for the souls
in purgatory. So with that,let's go ahead and end this show right,
and that would be with a prayer. We begin our prayer in the
name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit. How
many Father would come to you ingreat thanksgiving today for this opportunity to come
(14:28):
together as brothers and sisters in Christ, so that we may learn more about
the faith. For the sake ofdefending the faith, we ask that you
grant us the strength to explain anddefend our faith with patience and charity,
and to see challenges to our faithas a chance to evangelize and to spread
(14:50):
the love and peace of Christ toall whom we meet, and to do
this through the example of self sacrificethat Christ provides for us through his death
on the cross. And we askthis in the name of Christ, our
Lord. Amen, we under ourprayer in the name of the Father and
of the Son and of the HolySpirit. Okay, So until our next
(15:11):
show, please take care and mayGod be with you and everything you do.
Good buying, God bless Hello,God's beloved. I'm Annabel Moseley,
author, professor of theology and hostof then Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood
on WCAT Radio. I invite youto listen in and find inspiration along this
(15:33):
sacred journey. We're traveling together tomake our lives a masterpiece. End with
God's grace, become saints. Joinme Annabel Mosley for then Sings My Soul
and Destination Sainthood on WCAT Radio.God bless you. Remember you are never
alone. God is always with here. Thank you for listening to a production
(16:03):
of WCAT Radio. Please join usan omission of evangelization and don't forget.
Love lifts up where knowledge takes flight.
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