In this episode of Know Your Faith, Catholic apologist Robert Madrigal talks about Purgatory in the New Testament and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. (May 17, 2023)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to WCAT radio, yourhome for authentic Catholic programming. Good evening
to everyone out there listening to WCATradio dot com. My name is Robert
Madrigale, the host of the showKnow Your Faith, a forum for those
(00:20):
who know the faith, a sourcefor those who would like to get to
know the faith, AKA Unapologetically Apologetics. On this show, we talk about
Catholic apologetics, and we are unapologeticabout our love for God, our love
for Christ, and our love forthe Catholic Church. Today's show is part
two in a series of five onthe Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Today we're
(00:46):
going to examine the question of whetherpurgatory is in the Bible or not.
We're going to take a look atsome readings from the New Testament because it
is very interesting that even though thename purgatory is not in the Bible,
there is a description of a purificationprocess we must go through before we could
(01:07):
enter heaven. This shows that theidea of a purification process before we enter
heaven is not a twentieth century inventionof the Catholic Church. If it is
in the New Testament, then Christtaught it to the Apostles, and the
Apostles wrote about it as scripture andwhat later became the Bible. Now we
(01:32):
can also contrast this idea to theto the idea of saying a single prayer
during what Bible Christians referred to asan altar call, where a person says
one prayer and their sins are forgivenonce and for all, then we are
ready to enter heaven. Now,this is just one example of many doctrines
(02:00):
out there that are found outside ofthe Catholic Church which are meant to replace
purgatory. But to night, Ijust want to contrast on this one alone.
So let's go ahead and die rightin. But before we do,
I'd like to start the shaw offright and that would be for the prayer.
Begin our prayer in the name ofthe Father, and of the Son
and of the Holy Spirit. HeavenlyFather, we come to you in great
(02:23):
thanksgiving to day for this opportunity tocome together as brothers and sisters in Christ,
so that we may learn more aboutour faith. For the sake of
defending the faith, we ask thatyou grant us the strength to explain and
defend our faith with patience and charity, and to see challenges to our faith
(02:45):
has a chance to evangelize and spreadthe love and peace of Christ to all
whom we need, and to doit through the example of self sacrifice that
Christ provides for us through his deathon the cross. And we asked this
in the name of Christ, ourLord. Am end will end our prayer
(03:06):
in the name of the Father,end of the Son, and of the
Holy Spirit. So I would liketo start off with the quick look at
the name purgatory. Now, Ihave heard many Bible Christians state that the
Catholic Church invented purgatory, because itdidn't exist until the fifteenth century Catholic Council
of Florence. That is when thechurch, the Catholic Church, finally and
(03:34):
definitely gave purgatory its name. NowI have to ask the question I have
to ask Protestants. This question,was the existence of photosynthesis invented by the
scientific community when day came up withits name. I mean plants, grass
and trees grew before the name photosynthesiswas given to the natural process. Now
(04:00):
this has nothing to do with theBible, of course, Yet we are
about to see within the course ofthe next ten minutes that just like photosynthesis
purgatory existed long before the Church gaveit its name. So now I would
like to take a look at whatwe can learn about purgatory from the Catechism
(04:23):
of the Catholic Church. Then we'regoing to compare a few verses from the
New Testament, just as we didlast show with the Old Testament, and
we're going to find that it describesa purification process. And I will be
jumping around a bit with this comparison, so it may be a bit confusing,
so please bear with me. Butthe reason why I do this comparison
(04:46):
is because I always say that anyCatholic doctrines should be judged by what they
are, not what anybody else saysabout them when they add their own interpretation
excuse me interpretation to them, ifyou know what I'm talking about. So
first, let's define what purgatory isaccording to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
(05:10):
And I also do this because everytime I see a Protestant presentation that
goes against the belief in purgatory andother doctrines of the Catholic Church, that
is how they start out many times, and that is what it says in
the Catechism. Then they present anargument against it. So purgatory, according
(05:32):
to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part ten thirty Roman Numeral three,
the final purification or purgatory, allwho die in God's good grace. Excuse
me, I read that wrong.All who die in God's grace and friendship
but still imperfectly purified, are indeedassured of their eternal salvation. But after
(05:57):
death they undergo purification so as toachieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy
of heaven. The Church gives thisname purgatory to the purification of the elect,
which is entirely different from the punishmentof the damned. So with this,
(06:23):
I would just like to make myfirst point before I do the comparison.
I am not aware of any versesin the Bible which states that we
are made pure by saying one singleprayer during an altar call, so that
we're ready to enter heaven. Yetwe can look into the New Testament and
find a description of a purification processthat we go undergo under death. So
(06:47):
excuse me that we undergo after deathme. So now we're going to take
a look at what we read inFirst Corinthians, Chapter three, Verse thirteen.
Each one's work will become manifest,for the day will disclose it because
it will be revealed by fire,and the fire will test what kind of
(07:13):
work each one has done. Ifthe work which anyone has built on the
foundation survives, he will receive areward. If anyone's work is burned up,
he will suffer loss, though hehimself will be saved, but only
as through fire. Now, letme read that last part just one more
(07:35):
time, since it's so important.Though he himself will be saved, but
only as through fire. Now doesn'tthat sound a lot like the description of
purgatory that we just read in theCatechism. Let's go ahead and compare the
(07:56):
two. Firstly, in the Bible, each one's work will become manifest,
for the day will disclose it becauseit will be revealed by fire. Catechism
all who die and God's grace andfriendship, but still imperfectly purified. Okay,
(08:24):
so the Bible mentions each man's workwill become manifest. The Catechism mentions
those who die in God's grace andfriendship. The Bible states, for the
day will disclose it, but onlyas through fire. The Catechism states,
but after death they undergo purification.Now keep in mind the verses that we
(08:50):
read from last show gold and silversmithsmust use fire to purify gold or silver
Zachariah, Chapter thirteen, verses eightand nine. And I will put this
third into the fire and refine themas one refined silver. To suffer loss,
(09:11):
to go through fire, and toundergo purification. Those are the ideas
that we find in both the Bibleand the Catechism. Here again, that's
as close to word for word aswe can get without plagiarism. Like I
said last show, the Bible mentionseach man's work to receive a reward or
(09:35):
to suffer loss. And I wouldhope that any Christian would agree to die
in God's grace and friendship, wewould receive a reward. But the next
verse ties it all together. Bible, if the work which anyone has built
on the foundation survived, he willreceive a reward. If anyone's work has
(09:58):
burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved,
but only as through fire. Catechismare indeed assured of their eternal salvation,
but after death they undergo purification.Bible states, though he himself will be
(10:20):
saved. Catechism says are indeed assuredof their eternal salvation. Bible goes on
to say, if anyone's work isburned up, he will suffer loss.
Catechism goes on to state, butafter death they undergo purification. Here again
(10:41):
word for word, as close toan exact match without plagiarism. So so
far, I just want to pointout with this comparison, we can see
that we go through some suffering afterdeath, and at very least we begin
to see that it's a bit morecomplicated than we are. Once saved,
(11:05):
always saved here on earth after recitingthis one prayer, and we can't lose
that salvation. This is a doctrinewhich Bible Christians call once saved, always
saved. Now, according to myexperience, Bible Christians sometimes based that belief
on one line of scripture, andthat is when Jesus was on the cross
(11:28):
and he said it is finished.Then he bowed his head and gave up
his spirit. Now, for thosewho believe this, there's no more work
to be done. All the pompand ceremony of the Catholic churches for nothing.
We go to confession and the Ritualof Mass. Our good works mean
(11:48):
nothing because of that one line fromthe Gospel of John. So anyone can
see with this comparison that this goesto show that the belief in purgatory is
biblical, even though the name isn't. Just like the process of photosynthesis,
(12:13):
the name came far after the processbegan to place in history and even prehistory.
One other thing, if anyone disagreeswith the translation or my comparisons,
the issue is not whether purgatory isin the Bible or not. The issue
is disagreement over interpretation of what weread in the Bible. And last point
(12:39):
I want to make is this,since the Bible mentions this purification process in
both the New and Old Testaments withoutgiving it a name, the Catholic Church
decided to give it a name finallyand definitively on or in the fifteenth century
during the Council of Florence. Thisis one of the essential functions of the
(13:05):
magisterium of the Catholic Church, andit goes to show why the magisterium is
an essential part of the Church.When there is confusion from outside sources or
even within the Church over Catholic doctrine, a council may be held to make
sure that the doctrines of Christ arepreserved and passed down, so that they
(13:31):
are not forgotten. And this wecould also find in the Bible. We
see here in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter twenty eight, Verses nineteen and
twenty. Go therefore and teach allnations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father and the Son and theHoly Ghost, teaching them to observe all
(13:52):
things whatsoever I have commanded you,and lo I am with you even the
end of the age. So thatis all we have time for tonight,
and I have to say goodbye toeveryone out there listening to WCAT radio dot
com. Please join us for partthree of this series where we talk about
(14:16):
purgatory. Our next show will focuson finding purgatory in the New Testament again
and um I am looking forward tospending this time with everyone out there who
are interested in learning or I'm sorrylistening, excuse me, with everyone out
(14:39):
there who are interested in listening towhat I have to say and to hear
from you as well. Please emailme at Madrigal dot Robert at ymail dot
com. That's spelled m A DR I g. A. L dot
Robert R. O. B.E. R. T at ymail dot
com, and please feel free tosend me any questions and even more importantly
(15:01):
comments. If I say something thatis wrong, I'll be the first to
admit it. I would like tocall out to everyone out there listening to
pray for falling Catholics, for theirreturn to the church, and please pray
a rosary for the church suffering,and that is the souls and purgatory.
So with that, let's go aheadand end this show right, and that
(15:24):
would be with a prayer. Webegin our prayer in the name of the
Father and of the Son and ofthe Holy Spirit. Heavenly Father, we
come to you and great thanksgiving todayfor this opportunity to come together as brothers
and sisters in Christ, so thatwe may learn more about our faith.
For the sake of defending the faith, we ask that you grant us the
strength to explain and defend our faithwith patience and charity, and to see
(15:50):
challenges to our faith as a chanceto evangelize and to spread the love and
peace of Christ to all whom wemeet, and to do this through the
example of sacrifice that Christ provides forus. Through his death on the cross,
and we ask this in the nameof Christ, our Lord. Amen.
(16:10):
We'll end our prayer in the nameof the Father and of the Son
and of the Holy Spirit. SoI'd like to say goodbye and until our
next show, please take care.May God be with you and everything you
do. Goodbye and God bless Hello, God's beloved. I'm Annabel Moseley,
author, professor of theology and hostof then Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood
(16:37):
on WCAT Radio. I invite youto listen in and find inspiration along this
sacred journey. We're traveling together tomake our lives a masterpiece. End with
God's grace, become saints. Joinme Annabel Moseley for then Sings, My
Soul and Destinations Sainthood on WCAT Radio. God bless you. Remember you are
(17:02):
never alone. God is always referring. Thank you for listening to a production
of WCAT Radio. Please join usan omission of evangelization, and don't forget.
Love lifts up where knowledge takes plight.
You're listening to WCAT radio, yourhome for authentic Catholic programming. Good evening
to everyone out there listening to WCATradio dot com. My name is Robert
Madrigale, the host of the showKnow Your Faith, a forum for those
(00:20):
who know the faith, a sourcefor those who would like to get to
know the faith, AKA Unapologetically Apologetics. On this show, we talk about
Catholic apologetics, and we are unapologeticabout our love for God, our love
for Christ, and our love forthe Catholic Church. Today's show is part
two in a series of five onthe Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Today we're
(00:46):
going to examine the question of whetherpurgatory is in the Bible or not.
We're going to take a look atsome readings from the New Testament because it
is very interesting that even though thename purgatory is not in the Bible,
there is a description of a purificationprocess we must go through before we could
(01:07):
enter heaven. This shows that theidea of a purification process before we enter
heaven is not a twentieth century inventionof the Catholic Church. If it is
in the New Testament, then Christtaught it to the Apostles, and the
Apostles wrote about it as scripture andwhat later became the Bible. Now we
(01:32):
can also contrast this idea to theto the idea of saying a single prayer
during what Bible Christians referred to asan altar call, where a person says
one prayer and their sins are forgivenonce and for all, then we are
ready to enter heaven. Now,this is just one example of many doctrines
(02:00):
out there that are found outside ofthe Catholic Church which are meant to replace
purgatory. But to night, Ijust want to contrast on this one alone.
So let's go ahead and die rightin. But before we do,
I'd like to start the shaw offright and that would be for the prayer.
Begin our prayer in the name ofthe Father, and of the Son
and of the Holy Spirit. HeavenlyFather, we come to you in great
(02:23):
thanksgiving to day for this opportunity tocome together as brothers and sisters in Christ,
so that we may learn more aboutour faith. For the sake of
defending the faith, we ask thatyou grant us the strength to explain and
defend our faith with patience and charity, and to see challenges to our faith
(02:45):
has a chance to evangelize and spreadthe love and peace of Christ to all
whom we need, and to doit through the example of self sacrifice that
Christ provides for us through his deathon the cross. And we asked this
in the name of Christ, ourLord. Am end will end our prayer
(03:06):
in the name of the Father,end of the Son, and of the
Holy Spirit. So I would liketo start off with the quick look at
the name purgatory. Now, Ihave heard many Bible Christians state that the
Catholic Church invented purgatory, because itdidn't exist until the fifteenth century Catholic Council
of Florence. That is when thechurch, the Catholic Church, finally and
(03:34):
definitely gave purgatory its name. NowI have to ask the question I have
to ask Protestants. This question,was the existence of photosynthesis invented by the
scientific community when day came up withits name. I mean plants, grass
and trees grew before the name photosynthesiswas given to the natural process. Now
(04:00):
this has nothing to do with theBible, of course, Yet we are
about to see within the course ofthe next ten minutes that just like photosynthesis
purgatory existed long before the Church gaveit its name. So now I would
like to take a look at whatwe can learn about purgatory from the Catechism
(04:23):
of the Catholic Church. Then we'regoing to compare a few verses from the
New Testament, just as we didlast show with the Old Testament, and
we're going to find that it describesa purification process. And I will be
jumping around a bit with this comparison, so it may be a bit confusing,
so please bear with me. Butthe reason why I do this comparison
(04:46):
is because I always say that anyCatholic doctrines should be judged by what they
are, not what anybody else saysabout them when they add their own interpretation
excuse me interpretation to them, ifyou know what I'm talking about. So
first, let's define what purgatory isaccording to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
(05:10):
And I also do this because everytime I see a Protestant presentation that
goes against the belief in purgatory andother doctrines of the Catholic Church, that
is how they start out many times, and that is what it says in
the Catechism. Then they present anargument against it. So purgatory, according
(05:32):
to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part ten thirty Roman Numeral three,
the final purification or purgatory, allwho die in God's good grace. Excuse
me, I read that wrong.All who die in God's grace and friendship
but still imperfectly purified, are indeedassured of their eternal salvation. But after
(05:57):
death they undergo purification so as toachieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy
of heaven. The Church gives thisname purgatory to the purification of the elect,
which is entirely different from the punishmentof the damned. So with this,
(06:23):
I would just like to make myfirst point before I do the comparison.
I am not aware of any versesin the Bible which states that we
are made pure by saying one singleprayer during an altar call, so that
we're ready to enter heaven. Yetwe can look into the New Testament and
find a description of a purification processthat we go undergo under death. So
(06:47):
excuse me that we undergo after deathme. So now we're going to take
a look at what we read inFirst Corinthians, Chapter three, Verse thirteen.
Each one's work will become manifest,for the day will disclose it because
it will be revealed by fire,and the fire will test what kind of
(07:13):
work each one has done. Ifthe work which anyone has built on the
foundation survives, he will receive areward. If anyone's work is burned up,
he will suffer loss, though hehimself will be saved, but only
as through fire. Now, letme read that last part just one more
(07:35):
time, since it's so important.Though he himself will be saved, but
only as through fire. Now doesn'tthat sound a lot like the description of
purgatory that we just read in theCatechism. Let's go ahead and compare the
(07:56):
two. Firstly, in the Bible, each one's work will become manifest,
for the day will disclose it becauseit will be revealed by fire. Catechism
all who die and God's grace andfriendship, but still imperfectly purified. Okay,
(08:24):
so the Bible mentions each man's workwill become manifest. The Catechism mentions
those who die in God's grace andfriendship. The Bible states, for the
day will disclose it, but onlyas through fire. The Catechism states,
but after death they undergo purification.Now keep in mind the verses that we
(08:50):
read from last show gold and silversmithsmust use fire to purify gold or silver
Zachariah, Chapter thirteen, verses eightand nine. And I will put this
third into the fire and refine themas one refined silver. To suffer loss,
(09:11):
to go through fire, and toundergo purification. Those are the ideas
that we find in both the Bibleand the Catechism. Here again, that's
as close to word for word aswe can get without plagiarism. Like I
said last show, the Bible mentionseach man's work to receive a reward or
(09:35):
to suffer loss. And I wouldhope that any Christian would agree to die
in God's grace and friendship, wewould receive a reward. But the next
verse ties it all together. Bible, if the work which anyone has built
on the foundation survived, he willreceive a reward. If anyone's work has
(09:58):
burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved,
but only as through fire. Catechismare indeed assured of their eternal salvation,
but after death they undergo purification.Bible states, though he himself will be
(10:20):
saved. Catechism says are indeed assuredof their eternal salvation. Bible goes on
to say, if anyone's work isburned up, he will suffer loss.
Catechism goes on to state, butafter death they undergo purification. Here again
(10:41):
word for word, as close toan exact match without plagiarism. So so
far, I just want to pointout with this comparison, we can see
that we go through some suffering afterdeath, and at very least we begin
to see that it's a bit morecomplicated than we are. Once saved,
(11:05):
always saved here on earth after recitingthis one prayer, and we can't lose
that salvation. This is a doctrinewhich Bible Christians call once saved, always
saved. Now, according to myexperience, Bible Christians sometimes based that belief
on one line of scripture, andthat is when Jesus was on the cross
(11:28):
and he said it is finished.Then he bowed his head and gave up
his spirit. Now, for thosewho believe this, there's no more work
to be done. All the pompand ceremony of the Catholic churches for nothing.
We go to confession and the Ritualof Mass. Our good works mean
(11:48):
nothing because of that one line fromthe Gospel of John. So anyone can
see with this comparison that this goesto show that the belief in purgatory is
biblical, even though the name isn't. Just like the process of photosynthesis,
(12:13):
the name came far after the processbegan to place in history and even prehistory.
One other thing, if anyone disagreeswith the translation or my comparisons,
the issue is not whether purgatory isin the Bible or not. The issue
is disagreement over interpretation of what weread in the Bible. And last point
(12:39):
I want to make is this,since the Bible mentions this purification process in
both the New and Old Testaments withoutgiving it a name, the Catholic Church
decided to give it a name finallyand definitively on or in the fifteenth century
during the Council of Florence. Thisis one of the essential functions of the
(13:05):
magisterium of the Catholic Church, andit goes to show why the magisterium is
an essential part of the Church.When there is confusion from outside sources or
even within the Church over Catholic doctrine, a council may be held to make
sure that the doctrines of Christ arepreserved and passed down, so that they
(13:31):
are not forgotten. And this wecould also find in the Bible. We
see here in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter twenty eight, Verses nineteen and
twenty. Go therefore and teach allnations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father and the Son and theHoly Ghost, teaching them to observe all
(13:52):
things whatsoever I have commanded you,and lo I am with you even the
end of the age. So thatis all we have time for tonight,
and I have to say goodbye toeveryone out there listening to WCAT radio dot
com. Please join us for partthree of this series where we talk about
(14:16):
purgatory. Our next show will focuson finding purgatory in the New Testament again
and um I am looking forward tospending this time with everyone out there who
are interested in learning or I'm sorrylistening, excuse me, with everyone out
(14:39):
there who are interested in listening towhat I have to say and to hear
from you as well. Please emailme at Madrigal dot Robert at ymail dot
com. That's spelled m A DR I g. A. L dot
Robert R. O. B.E. R. T at ymail dot
com, and please feel free tosend me any questions and even more importantly
(15:01):
comments. If I say something thatis wrong, I'll be the first to
admit it. I would like tocall out to everyone out there listening to
pray for falling Catholics, for theirreturn to the church, and please pray
a rosary for the church suffering,and that is the souls and purgatory.
So with that, let's go aheadand end this show right, and that
(15:24):
would be with a prayer. Webegin our prayer in the name of the
Father and of the Son and ofthe Holy Spirit. Heavenly Father, we
come to you and great thanksgiving todayfor this opportunity to come together as brothers
and sisters in Christ, so thatwe may learn more about our faith.
For the sake of defending the faith, we ask that you grant us the
strength to explain and defend our faithwith patience and charity, and to see
(15:50):
challenges to our faith as a chanceto evangelize and to spread the love and
peace of Christ to all whom wemeet, and to do this through the
example of sacrifice that Christ provides forus. Through his death on the cross,
and we ask this in the nameof Christ, our Lord. Amen.
(16:10):
We'll end our prayer in the nameof the Father and of the Son
and of the Holy Spirit. SoI'd like to say goodbye and until our
next show, please take care.May God be with you and everything you
do. Goodbye and God bless Hello, God's beloved. I'm Annabel Moseley,
author, professor of theology and hostof then Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood
(16:37):
on WCAT Radio. I invite youto listen in and find inspiration along this
sacred journey. We're traveling together tomake our lives a masterpiece. End with
God's grace, become saints. Joinme Annabel Moseley for then Sings, My
Soul and Destinations Sainthood on WCAT Radio. God bless you. Remember you are
(17:02):
never alone. God is always referring. Thank you for listening to a production
of WCAT Radio. Please join usan omission of evangelization, and don't forget.
Love lifts up where knowledge takes plight.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.