In this episode of Know Your Faith, Catholic apologist Robert Madrigal talks about Purgatory in the New Testament and Theological Perfection. (May 17, 2023)
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
You're listening to WCAT radio, yourhome for authentic Catholic programming. Good evening
to everyone out there listening to WCATradio dot com. My name is Robert
Madrigale, the host of the showKnow Your Faith, a forum for those
who know the faith, a sourcefor those who like to get to know
(00:25):
the faith. Heyka, Unapologetically Apologetics. On this show we talk about Catholic
apologetics, and we are unapologetic partour love for God, our love for
Christ, and our love for theCatholic Church. Today's show is part three
of a series of five on purgatory. Now, I would like to address
(00:47):
two of the issues that Bible Christianshave with purgatory. Number one, Bible
Christians believe that there is no needto be purified after death because we are
forgiven once and for all by thesacrifice of Christ on the Cross. And
number two, the Bible does notmention a place beside Heaven or Heaven or
(01:11):
Hell. So the belief in purgatoryis made up by the Catholic Church.
Well, that's what they believe.That's what I've heard Protestants say. I
will go over a good Bible basedargument for the existence of purgatory and this
third place that we call purgatory.But that is only because if we fail
(01:36):
to base our arguments on the Bible, we will fail to convince our Bible
believing brothers and sisters who are Christians. During a debate, I will also
show that we need to become perfectin order to enter Heaven. But before
we get into the night's show,I would like to start off right,
(01:57):
and that would be with the beginour prayer in the name of the Father
and of the Son and of theHoly Spirit. How many Father, we
come to you in great thanksgiving today for this opportunity to come together as
brothers and sisters in Christ, sothat we may learn more about our faith.
For the sake of defending the faith, we ask that You grant us
(02:20):
the strength to explain and defend ourfaith with patience and charity, and to
see challenges to our faith as achance to evangelize and to spread the love
and peace of Christ to all whomwe meet, and to do this through
the example of self sacrifice that Christprovides for us through his death on the
(02:43):
cross. And we ask this inthe glorious name of Christ, our Lord,
Amen, und our prayer in thename of the Father and of the
Son and of the Holy Spirit.Well, like I said tonight, we're
going to go over a good Biblebased our argument for the existence of purgatory.
As far as I know, thereare two reasons why Protestants object to
(03:06):
our belief in purgatory. Like Isaid before, because number one, because
they claim that there is no needfor us to be purified after we die
to enter heaven, and that's becauseof the belief that we are totally forgiven
of our sins during our time hereon earth. And number two, because
they can't find the word purgatory inthe Bible. Thus, after death,
there's only heaven and hell, nothingelse. As for the first point,
(03:34):
Protestants and Bible Christians have often toldme that with the death of Christ,
all our sins are wiped away onceand for all. If we accept Jesus
into our hearts as our personal Lordand savior. I've been told that for
decades now, since I was aboutfifteen, then we are ready to enter
heaven, and we can accomplish thisthrough one simple prayer or simply by accepting
(04:00):
Jesus into our hearts and into ourlives. On the other hand, the
Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is ourfinal purification after we die, and this
is due to our need to bepurified from the stain of sin. And
those are the key words here,the stain of sin. So let's get
(04:21):
into the basics. Purgatory comes fromthe word purge, and purgatory purchase us
of the stain of sin so thatwe may become perfect to enter the perfection
of heaven. Every Christian I haveever spoken with agrees that Jesus was the
(04:43):
only person who was perfect ever towalk the earth, and that Jesus lived
and died in a state of perfectionbecause he never sinned. So about perfection,
let's see what the Bible says.Let's look at this verse that I
found here in the Gospel of Matthew. But just a bit of context.
(05:08):
Verse. This verse comes from theSermon of Them on the Mound, words
directly from Jesus, as he isgiving us instruction things like love your enemies,
and if you love those who loveyou, what reward can you have?
So the verse I would like tofocus on right now is from the
(05:30):
Gospel of Matthew, Chapter five,verses, verse forty eight excuse me,
You must therefore be perfect as yourheavenly Father is perfect. Now we all
know that as humans we are farfrom being perfect. I would like to
(05:50):
speak to just one Christian who believesthat they will die in the state of
perfection, sinless, like Christ himself. See, Heaven is so perfect that
to enter Heaven imperfectly would defile Heavenitself, and that is a problem for
(06:15):
anyone who does not go through apurification first. According to the Catechism of
the Catholic Church, all who diein God's grace and friendship but still imperfectly
purified are indeed assured of their eternalsalvation. But after death they undergo purification
so as to achieve the holiness necessaryto enter the joy of heaven. The
(06:40):
Church gives this name purgatory to thepurification of the elect, excuse me,
to the purification of the elect,which is entirely different from the punishment of
the damned. So here we haveit, a purification process that makes us
holy enough to enter Heaven. Justlike the Gospel of Matthew says, we
(07:05):
must be perfect as the heavenly,as your heavenly Father is perfect. Okay,
Now, with that, I wouldlike to move him to my second
point for today. The Bible doesmention a place between or I'm sorry,
a place besides heaven and Hell.Of course Protestants will disagree, but I
(07:29):
have asked a few pastors for theirinterpretation of the verses that mention this third
place. The best answer I've gottenso far is that it was a temporary
place set up for people who diedbefore the birth of Christ so that they
may be welcomed into Heaven. Thiswas a Baptist pastor at a church in
(07:54):
New Mexico that told me this.But we are about to see that that's
not what the Bible says. Sowhere this pastor got in this interpretation from
is anyone's guests? I mean,I really don't understand that interpretation, especially
after we read these verses. TheNew Testament speaks about a prison, actually
(08:18):
a spiritual prison where number one Jesuswent to preach a number two where we
pay for our transgressions. Now,if this is true, we must ask
ourselves where can this prison be?Can it be Hell? Okay, so
if Jesus would go to this prisonto preach to the spirits there, can
(08:46):
it be Hell? Then why wouldJesus go into Hell to preach to the
spirits there. The traditional belief ofhell is that hell is eternal. Once
in hell, there's no getting out. It's an eternal suffering. One of
the verses that reveal this prison isfrom First Peter, Chapter three, verses
(09:09):
eighteen through twenty. For Christ alsosuffered once for our sins, the righteous
for the unrighteous, that he mightbring us to God, being put to
death in the flesh, but madealive in the spirit, in which he
went and proclaimed to the spirits inprison. So what we find here is
(09:37):
undeniable, even when we find thetemptation to interpret this as a time when
Jesus preached to a bunch of guysthat broke the law and got themselves thrown
into jail. If you feel that'sthe case, then let me reread the
verses being put to death in theflesh, but being made alive in the
(09:58):
spirit. So this was not anearthly prison. With this being after Jesus's
crucifixion and death in which he wentand proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
we are not talking about spirits inprison an earthly prison, So it must
(10:20):
be a spiritual prison. I guessif someone to reach out, were to
reach out as far as they can, they could find an objection and they
might say that these verses are talkingabout hell. But as of yet,
I've never met a Christian, Catholicor otherwise who believes that Hell is a
(10:43):
place that you could get out of. Every Christian I've ever met believes that
Hell is eternal. So why wouldJesus proclaim to spirits who could get out
of hell? It doesn't seem tome or anyone I've ever met like Jesus
is the type to go a spiritualprison, to rub it in, so
(11:03):
to speak. And moreover, Ihave never met a Christian who believes that
hell. Excuse me, I've nevermet a Christian who believes that Heaven would
be referred to as a prison,so least of all in the Bible.
So Heaven is not the prison thatSaint Peter was talking about either. So
(11:26):
since it's not Hell, it's notHeaven, and it's not here on earth,
where can this mysterious prison be that'smentioned in the Bible. But wait,
I'm not finished. There's further mentionof this prison, And we'll take
a look at the Gospel of MatthewChapter five, verse twenty six, come
(11:46):
to terms quickly with your accuser whileyou are going to going with him to
court, lest your accuser hand youover to the judge, and the judge
to the guard, and you beput in prison. Truly, I say
to you, you will never getout until you have paid the last penny.
(12:15):
So what we have here in thesecond verse we are put into prison
after being judged. Truly, Isay to you, you will never get
out until you've paid the last penny. The verse here says that we get
out of the prison when we prayedfor our transgressions. This does not sound
(12:35):
like we're forgiven one and once andfor all during our time here on earth.
Does it? Here? Again?We are are we thrown into hell?
Any Christian who believes Hal's eternal wouldhave to say no. This surely
does not refer to heaven here onearth. God gave us free will,
(13:01):
so the prison is not here onearth either. So for the person who
believes that there is only heaven andhell, they would have to pick one
or the other. For us Catholics, we can pick what is taught by
tradition. Purgatory a third place describedin the Bible, and named by the
(13:24):
Catholic Church. If Bible Christians mustdisagree on the interpretation of those verses I
just read, it can no longerbe said that purgatory is not in the
Bible. The disagreement would only beon interpretation of the Bible. Well,
that's all we have time for today'sshow, so I have to say goodbye
(13:46):
to everyone out there listening to WCATradio dot com. Please join us for
part four of our series on Purgatory, where our apologetics will be closer to
a Catechism class. We are goingto look at reasons why Catholics should believe
in purgatory, and I'm looking forwardto spending this time with everyone out there
(14:11):
who are interested in learning what Ihave excuse me listening to what I have
to say. There's a big differencethere listening to what I have to say
and to hear from you as well. Please email me at Madrigal dot Robert
at ymail dot com Madrigal Espeled,M A D R I G A L
dot Robert at ymel dot com.Please feel free to send me any questions
(14:35):
and even more importantly comments. Iwould like to call out to everyone out
there listening to pray for fallen Catholicsfor their return to the church, and
please play a rosary for the churchsuffering, and that is the souls in
purgatory. But that let's end theshow right, and that would be with
the prayer. Begin our prayer inthe name of the Father and of the
(14:56):
Son and of the Holy Spirit.Heavenly Father, we come to you in
great thanksgiving today for this opportunity tocome together as brothers and sisters in Christ,
so that we may learn more aboutour faith. For the sake of
defending the faith, we ask thatyou grant us the strength to explain and
defend our faith with patience and charity, and to see challenges to our faith
(15:20):
as a chance to evangelize and tospread the love and peace of Christ to
all whom we meet, and todo this through the example of self sacrifice
that Christ provides for us through hisdeath on the cross. We ask this
in the name of Christ, ourLord. Amen, and we'll end our
(15:41):
prayer in the name of the Fatherand of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit. Okay, so thank youfor joining us for today's show. May
God be with you in everything thatyou do. Goodbye, and God bless
Hello, God Beloved. I'm AnnabelMosley, author, professor of theology,
(16:03):
and host of then Sings, MySoul and Destination Sainthood on WCAT Radio.
I invite you to listen in andfind inspiration along this sacred journey. We're
traveling together to make our lives amasterpiece. End with God's grace, become
saints. Join me Annabel Mosley forthen Sings, My Soul and Destination Sainthood
(16:27):
on WCAT Radio. God bless you. Remember you are never alone. God
is always we heard. Thank youfor listening to a production of WCAT Radio.
Please join us an old mission ofevangelization, and don't forget Love lifts
(16:51):
up when knowledge takes flight.
You're listening to WCAT radio, yourhome for authentic Catholic programming. Good evening
to everyone out there listening to WCATradio dot com. My name is Robert
Madrigale, the host of the showKnow Your Faith, a forum for those
who know the faith, a sourcefor those who like to get to know
(00:25):
the faith. Heyka, Unapologetically Apologetics. On this show we talk about Catholic
apologetics, and we are unapologetic partour love for God, our love for
Christ, and our love for theCatholic Church. Today's show is part three
of a series of five on purgatory. Now, I would like to address
(00:47):
two of the issues that Bible Christianshave with purgatory. Number one, Bible
Christians believe that there is no needto be purified after death because we are
forgiven once and for all by thesacrifice of Christ on the Cross. And
number two, the Bible does notmention a place beside Heaven or Heaven or
(01:11):
Hell. So the belief in purgatoryis made up by the Catholic Church.
Well, that's what they believe.That's what I've heard Protestants say. I
will go over a good Bible basedargument for the existence of purgatory and this
third place that we call purgatory.But that is only because if we fail
(01:36):
to base our arguments on the Bible, we will fail to convince our Bible
believing brothers and sisters who are Christians. During a debate, I will also
show that we need to become perfectin order to enter Heaven. But before
we get into the night's show,I would like to start off right,
(01:57):
and that would be with the beginour prayer in the name of the Father
and of the Son and of theHoly Spirit. How many Father, we
come to you in great thanksgiving today for this opportunity to come together as
brothers and sisters in Christ, sothat we may learn more about our faith.
For the sake of defending the faith, we ask that You grant us
(02:20):
the strength to explain and defend ourfaith with patience and charity, and to
see challenges to our faith as achance to evangelize and to spread the love
and peace of Christ to all whomwe meet, and to do this through
the example of self sacrifice that Christprovides for us through his death on the
(02:43):
cross. And we ask this inthe glorious name of Christ, our Lord,
Amen, und our prayer in thename of the Father and of the
Son and of the Holy Spirit.Well, like I said tonight, we're
going to go over a good Biblebased our argument for the existence of purgatory.
As far as I know, thereare two reasons why Protestants object to
(03:06):
our belief in purgatory. Like Isaid before, because number one, because
they claim that there is no needfor us to be purified after we die
to enter heaven, and that's becauseof the belief that we are totally forgiven
of our sins during our time hereon earth. And number two, because
they can't find the word purgatory inthe Bible. Thus, after death,
there's only heaven and hell, nothingelse. As for the first point,
(03:34):
Protestants and Bible Christians have often toldme that with the death of Christ,
all our sins are wiped away onceand for all. If we accept Jesus
into our hearts as our personal Lordand savior. I've been told that for
decades now, since I was aboutfifteen, then we are ready to enter
heaven, and we can accomplish thisthrough one simple prayer or simply by accepting
(04:00):
Jesus into our hearts and into ourlives. On the other hand, the
Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is ourfinal purification after we die, and this
is due to our need to bepurified from the stain of sin. And
those are the key words here,the stain of sin. So let's get
(04:21):
into the basics. Purgatory comes fromthe word purge, and purgatory purchase us
of the stain of sin so thatwe may become perfect to enter the perfection
of heaven. Every Christian I haveever spoken with agrees that Jesus was the
(04:43):
only person who was perfect ever towalk the earth, and that Jesus lived
and died in a state of perfectionbecause he never sinned. So about perfection,
let's see what the Bible says.Let's look at this verse that I
found here in the Gospel of Matthew. But just a bit of context.
(05:08):
Verse. This verse comes from theSermon of Them on the Mound, words
directly from Jesus, as he isgiving us instruction things like love your enemies,
and if you love those who loveyou, what reward can you have?
So the verse I would like tofocus on right now is from the
(05:30):
Gospel of Matthew, Chapter five,verses, verse forty eight excuse me,
You must therefore be perfect as yourheavenly Father is perfect. Now we all
know that as humans we are farfrom being perfect. I would like to
(05:50):
speak to just one Christian who believesthat they will die in the state of
perfection, sinless, like Christ himself. See, Heaven is so perfect that
to enter Heaven imperfectly would defile Heavenitself, and that is a problem for
(06:15):
anyone who does not go through apurification first. According to the Catechism of
the Catholic Church, all who diein God's grace and friendship but still imperfectly
purified are indeed assured of their eternalsalvation. But after death they undergo purification
so as to achieve the holiness necessaryto enter the joy of heaven. The
(06:40):
Church gives this name purgatory to thepurification of the elect, excuse me,
to the purification of the elect,which is entirely different from the punishment of
the damned. So here we haveit, a purification process that makes us
holy enough to enter Heaven. Justlike the Gospel of Matthew says, we
(07:05):
must be perfect as the heavenly,as your heavenly Father is perfect. Okay,
Now, with that, I wouldlike to move him to my second
point for today. The Bible doesmention a place between or I'm sorry,
a place besides heaven and Hell.Of course Protestants will disagree, but I
(07:29):
have asked a few pastors for theirinterpretation of the verses that mention this third
place. The best answer I've gottenso far is that it was a temporary
place set up for people who diedbefore the birth of Christ so that they
may be welcomed into Heaven. Thiswas a Baptist pastor at a church in
(07:54):
New Mexico that told me this.But we are about to see that that's
not what the Bible says. Sowhere this pastor got in this interpretation from
is anyone's guests? I mean,I really don't understand that interpretation, especially
after we read these verses. TheNew Testament speaks about a prison, actually
(08:18):
a spiritual prison where number one Jesuswent to preach a number two where we
pay for our transgressions. Now,if this is true, we must ask
ourselves where can this prison be?Can it be Hell? Okay, so
if Jesus would go to this prisonto preach to the spirits there, can
(08:46):
it be Hell? Then why wouldJesus go into Hell to preach to the
spirits there. The traditional belief ofhell is that hell is eternal. Once
in hell, there's no getting out. It's an eternal suffering. One of
the verses that reveal this prison isfrom First Peter, Chapter three, verses
(09:09):
eighteen through twenty. For Christ alsosuffered once for our sins, the righteous
for the unrighteous, that he mightbring us to God, being put to
death in the flesh, but madealive in the spirit, in which he
went and proclaimed to the spirits inprison. So what we find here is
(09:37):
undeniable, even when we find thetemptation to interpret this as a time when
Jesus preached to a bunch of guysthat broke the law and got themselves thrown
into jail. If you feel that'sthe case, then let me reread the
verses being put to death in theflesh, but being made alive in the
(09:58):
spirit. So this was not anearthly prison. With this being after Jesus's
crucifixion and death in which he wentand proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
we are not talking about spirits inprison an earthly prison, So it must
(10:20):
be a spiritual prison. I guessif someone to reach out, were to
reach out as far as they can, they could find an objection and they
might say that these verses are talkingabout hell. But as of yet,
I've never met a Christian, Catholicor otherwise who believes that Hell is a
(10:43):
place that you could get out of. Every Christian I've ever met believes that
Hell is eternal. So why wouldJesus proclaim to spirits who could get out
of hell? It doesn't seem tome or anyone I've ever met like Jesus
is the type to go a spiritualprison, to rub it in, so
(11:03):
to speak. And moreover, Ihave never met a Christian who believes that
hell. Excuse me, I've nevermet a Christian who believes that Heaven would
be referred to as a prison,so least of all in the Bible.
So Heaven is not the prison thatSaint Peter was talking about either. So
(11:26):
since it's not Hell, it's notHeaven, and it's not here on earth,
where can this mysterious prison be that'smentioned in the Bible. But wait,
I'm not finished. There's further mentionof this prison, And we'll take
a look at the Gospel of MatthewChapter five, verse twenty six, come
(11:46):
to terms quickly with your accuser whileyou are going to going with him to
court, lest your accuser hand youover to the judge, and the judge
to the guard, and you beput in prison. Truly, I say
to you, you will never getout until you have paid the last penny.
(12:15):
So what we have here in thesecond verse we are put into prison
after being judged. Truly, Isay to you, you will never get
out until you've paid the last penny. The verse here says that we get
out of the prison when we prayedfor our transgressions. This does not sound
(12:35):
like we're forgiven one and once andfor all during our time here on earth.
Does it? Here? Again?We are are we thrown into hell?
Any Christian who believes Hal's eternal wouldhave to say no. This surely
does not refer to heaven here onearth. God gave us free will,
(13:01):
so the prison is not here onearth either. So for the person who
believes that there is only heaven andhell, they would have to pick one
or the other. For us Catholics, we can pick what is taught by
tradition. Purgatory a third place describedin the Bible, and named by the
(13:24):
Catholic Church. If Bible Christians mustdisagree on the interpretation of those verses I
just read, it can no longerbe said that purgatory is not in the
Bible. The disagreement would only beon interpretation of the Bible. Well,
that's all we have time for today'sshow, so I have to say goodbye
(13:46):
to everyone out there listening to WCATradio dot com. Please join us for
part four of our series on Purgatory, where our apologetics will be closer to
a Catechism class. We are goingto look at reasons why Catholics should believe
in purgatory, and I'm looking forwardto spending this time with everyone out there
(14:11):
who are interested in learning what Ihave excuse me listening to what I have
to say. There's a big differencethere listening to what I have to say
and to hear from you as well. Please email me at Madrigal dot Robert
at ymail dot com Madrigal Espeled,M A D R I G A L
dot Robert at ymel dot com.Please feel free to send me any questions
(14:35):
and even more importantly comments. Iwould like to call out to everyone out
there listening to pray for fallen Catholicsfor their return to the church, and
please play a rosary for the churchsuffering, and that is the souls in
purgatory. But that let's end theshow right, and that would be with
the prayer. Begin our prayer inthe name of the Father and of the
(14:56):
Son and of the Holy Spirit.Heavenly Father, we come to you in
great thanksgiving today for this opportunity tocome together as brothers and sisters in Christ,
so that we may learn more aboutour faith. For the sake of
defending the faith, we ask thatyou grant us the strength to explain and
defend our faith with patience and charity, and to see challenges to our faith
(15:20):
as a chance to evangelize and tospread the love and peace of Christ to
all whom we meet, and todo this through the example of self sacrifice
that Christ provides for us through hisdeath on the cross. We ask this
in the name of Christ, ourLord. Amen, and we'll end our
(15:41):
prayer in the name of the Fatherand of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit. Okay, so thank youfor joining us for today's show. May
God be with you in everything thatyou do. Goodbye, and God bless
Hello, God Beloved. I'm AnnabelMosley, author, professor of theology,
(16:03):
and host of then Sings, MySoul and Destination Sainthood on WCAT Radio.
I invite you to listen in andfind inspiration along this sacred journey. We're
traveling together to make our lives amasterpiece. End with God's grace, become
saints. Join me Annabel Mosley forthen Sings, My Soul and Destination Sainthood
(16:27):
on WCAT Radio. God bless you. Remember you are never alone. God
is always we heard. Thank youfor listening to a production of WCAT Radio.
Please join us an old mission ofevangelization, and don't forget Love lifts
(16:51):
up when knowledge takes flight.
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