Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
To absorb information and memorize it and regard it. So
all how in God's Green Earth. Over the course of
the last three years, has Russell Wilson memorized entire rosters
that he recites at press conferences for new teams.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Annual does have that gift, but like he's got the
he's got it work out, oh you know it.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Flash just doesn't seem like a Cary. He doesn't seem
like a quick wit, spit it out kind of a guy.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
He can memorize some things. I bet he's like really
good at like the state capitol test. I bet he's
really good at that. That's just it's memorization.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
He has to sing the song to do it, though,
the state capitol song.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I know there's a there's a state song.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
There's a state song.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Well, there's a state capitol song.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I know a president's song.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
There's a capital song, but I don't know if it's
state or world. I think it's state. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
The only song I know for memorization is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Joshua.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Matthew, Mark and Luke and John and Act and then
there's Romans. I remember I remember that. Non do the
state capitol song, I don't. I actually don't know that.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Sacramento much.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Your state capital.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Now I'm unbelievable. Are you really believable?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Ma and Augusta man West Virginia, Charleston, Okay, very very good.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Uh well, Vermont.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
I just gave it to you.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
New Hampshire, New Hampshire, Montana is Helena, Helena. Who would
you say, in New Hampshire, that's Delaware.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Excuse me?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
No, Hampshire, Providence, No, that's no, that's Rhode Island, Manchester, Manchester.
I just gave it to you.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I meant to stity New Hampshire. You were doing good.
Now start stay in New England.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Though about every eight years of Connecticut? What's Connecticut? Connecticut?
Come on? Man stores, Tadford. I don't think so. I
don't know.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Let's I don't think it is.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Well, what what's what's up for grabs? Right now?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Friday? Right, it's Friday.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
It is Hartford, it is Hardford, it is hard for
and I even.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I even threw in the New England accent.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
God, we didn't have that Home of the whalers, Home
of the whalers, that's right used to be. Joe Quenville
played for the Hartford Whalers showing off. It was a
defenseman there.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Illinois.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I don't know Springfield.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
I didn't claim I didn't know.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I didn't sit here bragging about my state capital. Every
state has a Springfield, it's just ours is the capitol.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I didn't know that I had a Banger's Washington Rockington. Uh,
it's the one where they have the beer stubby bottles,
stubby stubby little short bottle.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yes it is he. By the way, was there an
intermission during the Sean Payton pres conference the day so
people get snacks? O?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
God, I almost I truly most elongated by another ten dude.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Okay, okay, okay, guys, serious, you didn't get a question
in No, I did.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Oh alright, So I almost wanted the second question at
the end because I and I'm glad I didn't because
apparently everybody was just about ready.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Okay, So the last the last twelve minutes of it
were we we could have just completely done without and
and it got into him being basically like giving a
lecture on the history of football animals, that is, asking
questions after the fifteen minute mark. The guy that's on
the other station, you got.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
To be kidding me.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
There are a lot of second and third and fourth
fifth questions.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
And here's what okay, what are you doing? This? Also
is is what what annoyed me about the question? Okay?
Is that the question it was like framed in that
like the youel except football analytics thing. It was like
it was, let me frame this in the in the
nerds versus jocks debate that exists around the word capital
A analysts. Do you guys know what football analytics actually are? Information?
(04:04):
That's all it is. It's just information. It is information
that is used to inform decision making. Okay, Sean Payton
was explaining all of that information used to determine do
I want to draft this player because is he tall
enough enough the proper size to be able to play
this position? And information on do I want to go
for it right here or do I want to go
(04:25):
for two? It's just all it means is information. People
act like there's some quant nerd with a calculator up
there punching it all in and telling it no, it's
just information. It's just data. And here here is information,
and now make make a decision based upon the evidence
and data that is put directly in front of you.
That's all it is. That doesn't mean that everyone is
(04:47):
like digging into what's the DVLA of this play on
second down to nine and what's the expected points added
per drop back for the quarterback? And that stuff is
absolutely out there. But guess what, the coaches that are
making a decision play in and play out, that's not
what they're basing it on. They're simply basing it upon it.
Do you have a higher likelihood of success if you
(05:09):
do this versus if you do that? That's it. Yeah,
that's that's what football analytics are now. Like you can
get into like the data nerds stuff, and I like
some of that stuff, and I'll dig into it and
it'll give me more evidence for an argument or whatever
it is on my radio show.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
That stuff's good for after the facts. Absolutely a CPOE
completion percentage over expectation that you're not getting that short.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
He's using that. In that moment, he did drop a
great note of like he looked at bo Nicks as
a college quarterback and one out of eighty two of
his college snaps and resulted in a negative play. Okay,
I would look at that data point and I would say, well,
if Sean Payton as a football coach, but the most
important thing that you want is a quarterback avoiding negative plays,
which is what he wanted. That was why he hated
(05:55):
Russell Wilson because he took one hundred sacks and two
seasons here in Denver. So he looked at Sean Payton
and he said, who is less likely to take a
negative play? I'm sure he looked at pressure ratio, which
is a great number to be able to look at
pressure to sack ratio of like, okay, how often are
you just folding up and making your team lose yardage?
Bo was very good at that, all right, But like
(06:16):
that's the stuff that they're using.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Who are you pissed at?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I just everybody, And I'm pissed at how dumb the
the discourse has become around data and information in sports.
It has become so idiotic and everybody has lost their
mind because there's like new statistical evidence and new statistical
markers that have been put in front of us with
(06:40):
new initials that we don't understand. And I got to
learn about VORP.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Now, no, you don't you know what the most ironic
aspect of football guys that cannot stand NERD analytics guys,
what's that is? If you're an offensive or defensive play
caller over the last forty years, Yeah, you operate rate
based off the probabilities that are actual data of cover
(07:04):
two versus cover one, of pressure versus non pressure as
a play caller. And then if you're a defensive minded
guy and you're calling defensive calls in this personnel grouping,
are they what percent run versus what percent past is? Say? Yes,
so you're you're doing that And everybody who hates the
quote unquote new world of analytics, Yeah, they've.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Been doing that stuff for thirty five forty years forever.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
My dad was doing that. You get seventy one years old.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
But you can get into, as they just said, deeper,
deeper stuff and you said a post game, that's what
you've been diving into. That can now add information to
the information that you already have.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And really, why the guys that should be using that stuff,
And Scotty, you come from a sport that and you
have watched it over the last two decades. Really the
way that analytics have informed the sport of basketball, particularly
about shot shot taking and shot choice. Essentially and they
want you taking corner threes. They want threes and layups.
(08:03):
The mid range jump shot is a lower a lower
efficiency shot, so you see less of that in the game.
Free throws are a higher efficiency possession. And that is
the way that the game is now coached today. But again, like,
is is David Adaman or Michael Malone or they standing
on a sideline and thinking about all that data in
real time? No they're not. They're coaching the game directly
(08:26):
in front of them. Upstairs, there's you. You have an
R and D department that is now doing this work,
and that is digging into it and saying is this
player a good fit for our system? And should we
be taking more of these shots? All those kind of things.
But that has nothing to do with what is happening
in game in a huddle or anything else like that.
And and that again, like we have just like lost
(08:49):
the discussion on this stuff so badly. It has been
devolved into this dumb jocks and nerds debate that makes
me insane. Here's the problem, Sandman's dead on. They've been
using it forever.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
What once it got started coming to the forefront and
becoming out of the closet, so to speak. Right, The
problem was you had the nerds became elitists and say
you're stupid, you're just a dumb jock. And the dumb
jock says, you've never played and you don't know what.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
You're talking about.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
And you set up kind of like right now and
Republican's Democrats. We set up battle lines and either side's
ready to say, hey, what if we reach over and
actually that's not a bad point.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, we actually agree on these points. We could actually
do something this giant middle ground, and instead they.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Set up battlegrounds initially that I think are slowly getting
chipped away and there's more of a neutral zone. Now.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, what's so funny about Sean Payton today is is
he took that question and then it had to just
be like again, in so many words, you're just talking
about information, and every coach wants more information. Now, you
don't want to be buried in the information.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Become handy. You want me to dumb down this conversation completely.
I think he goes along and things like that on minutia,
if you will, on stuff that could be answered simply
because his offense was absolutely horrid today.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
It is it is It is a absolute selection. Oh
my gosh. Philibuster. Yeah, it was the ultimate philibuster.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
That's what I took.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
But so I would take it that way. I also
took it. If you're going to ask of somebody that's
a high profile individual, Sean Payton is one of the
most I'd say one of the ten most high profile
coaches in American sport.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
I think he's up there.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
What's the most valuable commodity that he can give the
media time? Yeah, And so we can sit here and
and kind of poke fun at the fact that he
went thirty three minutes. I know what the life of
a coach is like on the other end of it,
and the fact that he did give thirty three minutes
to the media, while at times it probably was a
little bit long winded in some of the answers, I
(10:54):
thought he's very thoughtful. Like I sat around and like,
for me as a football guy, I've I have become
a bigger fan of Sean Payton than I was prior
to covering this team the way I am because I
actually pick little tiny things up, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I had a conversation with Vic today as we were
listening to it and it's and Scotty, you'll know exactly
what I'm talking about. He reminded me of George Carl today.
George Carl was excellent at like Honestly, there were days
where after George Carl finished his media availability, you could
kind of just hang out and talk hoops with him,
(11:30):
and he was more than happy to do so. He'd
sit there and talk basketball with you for an hour,
and he'd give you a history lesson.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
I could tell how many conversations I had sitting in
a bar with a beer right like on the road somewhere,
just talking basketball.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
And how often did he take salt shakers and start
diagramming things out in front of you. And that was
what it was like to talk to George Carl about, honestly,
like what was interesting about Sean today? And again he
doesn't necessarily do that, But football culture has always kind
of been we'll keep it buttoned up. Everything's proprietary. Okay,
it's it's paranoia, or it's I'm trying to find whatever
(12:03):
edge I had. Exactly, I don't know what it is
about the culture of basketball. Basketball coaches will talk your
ear off.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Except for Mike Malone. Right, did you feel like at
times Mike Malone almost it was at times did you
feel like it was auto pilot he was in just like.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Very much.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
You didn't want to catch him on the road in
Portland four days before he gets fired.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
That was, yeah, without a doubt. But also like he
he was also a guy that could actually give you
thoughtful answers to things. I actually thought Malone was was
very gregarious with the media and.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
At the tail end is what's fresh in my mind.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Right, And Malone was also one of those guys like
national reporters were always like, hey, I I absolutely love
Michael Malone because he'll just sit there and talk hoops
with me. Peyton today and I don't know who the
reporter was, but she was doing a story on Declan Doyle,
who was the Broncos tight ends coach last year, who
was now the OC in Chicago under Ben Johnson. He
(13:00):
got that gig as far as they could still be
sitting on that bench talking right now for all I know,
like they were because we were waiting for Paul Chesky
to come out and talk to us today. They were
chatting forever. But I think again she asked Sean about
a topic that he was interested in which was a
guy that was, you know, an old quality control coach
of his and now Sean's like, hey, I can fluff
(13:21):
this dude and fluff my own coaching tree.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Ny, you mentioned that the football culture is one that
all the information is just kept very tight, right close
to the vest I asked the question today, one of
several questions that got actually, I think it was more
than a ninety second answer to answer from Sean Payton.
And as I was asking the question, I'm sitting there
like I'm internally panicking, saying that this might be a
(13:45):
question as this press conference is broadcast at least on
the on the interweb, Yeah, that it might give too
much information about what I saw at practice, and pissed
Sean Payton off because it was about the versatility of
having an Evan Ingram. You can basically give the look
of ten personnel, which is no tight ends for wide receivers,
because that's frankly what he is. Then you can also
(14:06):
give the presentation of eleven personnel in two minutes today. Obviously,
Evan Ingram is the one guy in there, and it
looks a little bit like somewhere in between ten and
eleven personnel.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
So the dumbed down version of that question is what's
it like to have that kind of a hybrid tight
end receiver player.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yes, but I mentioned also that today was a two
minute showed the versatility of why you added jah day Baron. Yeah,
and you yet keep Jaquan McMillan because they were in
dime personnel, which is something that I've been talking about
for the last five weeks six weeks that that draft pick.
It makes sense when you're playing against a team that
throws the living crap out of the football and plays
(14:41):
with three, if not four wide receivers on the field
at one time, why would you not have Jaquan McMillan
and John Day Baron in there? And Sean Payton gave
a really thoughtful answer, It's always trying to find who
are the guys that can cover? Right, Like if you're
a man coverage team, the more players.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I think he said something to the effect too of
like you could never have enough cover guys.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Yes, on to the one, and it was I was like,
after I got the answer or the question at out,
I was like, oh gosh, what's he gonna do? Gotta
give too much? Awa great answer, Yeah, it was fantastic.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Yeah, but you did a coach question and you didn't.
You didn't do a muggle from an internet show. You're
a cute little no.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
He he's a coach from an internet show.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
He did he didn't do a muggle question from a
cute internet show. All right, I get at her. I
said to Broncos offense here, So I described Broncos offense today.
It took a ned Beatty from Deliverance.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I heard that earlier.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I loved it more like bo picks.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Am.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I right, we'll take a break, we'll come back. We'll
talk about the offense's performance today. Ladies and gentlemen, the
great Scott Hastings. You listen to him every day noon
to three right here on Altitude Sports or are you in
ninety two five? Yes, it is sca Friday. By the way,
I got a text message, don't worry my my rant
to open the show with statistician approved, So thank you
(15:56):
for that need I needed that today. Craikman, it's Aye Lindahl.
It's the Sandman, Mike Sandford with us here on Altitude
Sports Radio ninety two five. All right, let's just start
with this today, guys. One of the stories of camp
Bo Nicks had not thrown any interceptions today. He couldn't
stop throwing interceptions.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Uh four of them. I counted four today.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
How many of them would have actually stood as plays
on the field.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Out of flags, I think it was one real flaggy
out the type of a day it really was. The
the officials were busy out there throwing the old flags.
But all right, so you say, no big deal.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I think the bigger deal right now is tomorrow's move
the ball. Situational scrimmage probably needs to be yield some
semblance of positive juju, positive vibes for the shooter or
just just jew Jude, Jew and Jew without the smith
in the shoes here for the offensive unit, namely the
(16:56):
first string offensive unit, because that has been a tough
nine days of practice for that first unit.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
They're going up against arguably the best defense in the NFL,
certainly top five to say the least, and going up
against one of the best secondaries in the entire league.
But but again, today was a day and Whufoona made
a great play on the first pick, and Sewn was
sure to compliment that and made a point to kind
of defend his quarterback, so to speak. But it was
a pretty sick play that he made. Yeah, certain got
(17:25):
him on a throw intended for Courtland Sutton, which, as
Sean later said, was a play that Russell Wilson threw
an interception on against Houston. I think it was Stingley
that got him on that play, Derek Stingley.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I didn't actually catch that during the press or he
was He didn't use Russell's name, did he did?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
He said Russell? Okay, yeah, he said Russell.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
He's apparently in that thirty three minute diet tribe but
might have gotten lost you.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
You may have did your eyes glaze over just a
little bit, just a bit? Does guys? Are we going
to play the entire thirty three minutes today on the
show or what?
Speaker 4 (18:01):
I'm just trying to get the dang nine minutes you
and I waited three hours for and technology sucks and
I'm over it. So every time I think I'm sending
this thing to kJ you and I got to talk
with Alex Paulchesky. Did we actually had a fun conversation.
We did a lot of did some good things say
about bone Nicks, talks about the past rush we'd like
to bring it to you in its entirety, but somehow
we've got to get it off my phone into the
(18:21):
guy next door. Every way that I have just keeps
just keeps subterfusing me, And yeah, I hate it.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Alex Paulchwski started his college career at the University of Illinois,
played for Love, and then finished his career at the
University of Illinois. Yeah, how cool is that.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
He was there in the entire Blima right, Uh, I
played for he was there for blam six years, lots
of time.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Games I coached against the dude twice. He Uh, if he.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Pulled out the numbers yesterday, I believe if it weren't
a forty million dollar dead cab hit to release Mike mclinchey,
they might think about something there, because that think Pallchwsky's
done a real good job.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Paul chose a. He's a dude man.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah, he is a.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Great swing tackle. And you remember a year ago at
this time, we were panicking about Quinn Bailey's broken leg. Yeah,
and training camp that even like you like you had
mentioned that they don't have necessarily at the time, we
didn't have an established swing tackle and Alex Poulchesski and
Matthew Pert have not only become really reliable backup tackles,
they both can jump, they can bounce inside and have
(19:27):
already done it so far this training camp. Because they're
they're both versatile type players.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah, I think Palchweski, like the swing tackle job is
basically going to be his. One of the other parts
of it too, guys. And I've made this point to
Andy and over and over again, and like, look, is
this based in any evidence. No, it's just based in likelihood. Okay,
whatever analytic that is. They've been so healthy in their
offensive line over the last two years, the odds of
(19:54):
that happening again are pretty low.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Last year was about was it about five total starts
missed by the entire unit. It was.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
It was like that the year before too, yea.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I think he might have even been healthier the year before.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
It was wild.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
So last year you had Wattenberg out for a game.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, Forsyth I think played for him. Uh, Palchwski made
I think three is for mclinchey, two or three starts
last year. Yeah for mcglinche, because I think.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Both seventeen out of seventeen.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, he played every game last season, Power Powers. I
think missed a game, Yeah, a game minors see miners
played everything, second team All Pro.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
So he was I think it was five, five or
six man days missed.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
How many offenses have you coordinated or teams have you
coached where all five offensive linemen stayed healthy for a
full season.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Doesn't happen, even even just the high ankle sprain, which
happens all the time. The roll up. Yeah, you get
rolled over and always looks like, oh, it's his a
cl it's almost always a high ankle spray.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
You typically you know you you you miss a game,
maybe two. You probably should miss about eight games because
it's that painful and you basically break it bone. It
just doesn't quite fully sever. Yeah, when you have a
high ankle sprain, but it's uh, you tape him up
in about four weeks later, they're they're ready to go.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, and that's okay, shoot him up and get back
in there. But yeah, mcglinchy'll be here this year because
it would cost him what was the number thirty nine
point one.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Yeah, forty million bucks.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Forty million bucks basically, so he's not going anywhere. He'll
he'll be here, you'll be like in the red Basically,
I think twenty three million dollars in cap and thirty
nine in dead cap. The out on McGlinchey is next year.
I think they would save like eight million bucks if
they were to cut him loose next season, if they
want to.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, because I mean, I know that Paul Chesky is
as a player that frankly is deserving of an opportunity
to start in the National Football League. But on the
flip side, is Mike McGlinchey in his twenty twenty four
campaign pretty damn good.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah, I don't they don't need the savings now.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Yeah, but you know again, he had whatever he had
going on beginning of camp and we all watched the
driol the other day. Where I watched, I heard plenty
of commentary about by multiple people with plenty of football
experience that you know, maybe we need to get the
get off a little bit quicker, maybe we need to
get a little wider. I'm just saying, if there's money
to be saved and you've got a young player, I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Why not.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Mike mclinchy's been a great free agent signing. I would
knock that. Now we know we had the mcflinchy, but
the year he was mcflinchy, so is everybody else because
Russell Wilson apparently doesn't keep a snap count for his
offensive line. But I'm just saying I've liked I like
Palchwski a lot, so I really do. And I just
think at some point, you know, look, you know, I
(22:33):
don't have to tell you. As a coach, I hear
it all the time, especially when you add in some
of those zone elements. You want five guys that grow together.
So they're like that unit this franchise was so proud
of back in the late nineties on their Super Bowl run.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I think that Mike mcglinchy is a huge part of
that unit though. In terms of the current Denver Broncos
and their identity is an offensive line that graded out
top three in the National Football League. I think it
was number one in pass blocking, tip five and run blocking. Yeah,
and he's a pretty I would say he's a pretty
vocal leader in that group. He's the elder Is he
(23:08):
the elder statesman? I guess Bowls Bulls? Is you mean
just experience? Yeah, year and years of years of older
than McGlinchey. I coached McGlinchey at twenty sixteen at Notre Dame.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, Bowles I think has been in the league longer.
I think now now I'm gonna dunt check.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
It's pretty comparable. Bulls was the seventeen draft.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, twenty seventeen. He was the twentieth overall.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
That might have come in the same year.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Mcglinchyes, rookie season.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Wha seventeen or eighteen, it's got to be because he
was at Notre Dame with me.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
In sixteen eighteen. Actually, okay, he was. So Bowles is
one more year in the NFL.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
So Mike, Mike mcglinchy feels like the elder statesman of
the group because as much as Garrett Poules has been
really solid, he's just there's like a it's almost like
he's got some rookie vibes to him. You're eight and nine.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Because we talked about earlier in the week, because I
threw it out there thinking about it. If we're really
going to talk about service to the team and what
he's done, and if you're looking to do some Ring
of Fame stuff from this era of Bronco football, which
is a lot of people resounding though and I have
no problem with it. It's not been a lot of winning.
When you've set a bar for yourself. What would you
think about a Garrett Bowles for a ring of fame?
(24:15):
Because a chance with the contract he got last year,
I think he finished his career as a Broncos. So
what does that count for? And Nate pointed it out aptly,
and a lot of the Texters agreed. He's had five
good years as a Bronco. He had an absolute disaster
of the first two years to where you weren't in
town yet. But John Away used to do his own
radio show and he was GM and he wondered aloud
on the air, does he know the holding rules? Is
(24:38):
how rough that was going for Garrett at the start?
Speaker 1 (24:40):
After that rough, he had a pretty.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Rough and nineteen were rough.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, twenty two was pretty rough as well in terms.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Of game yeah, right that the injury season in twenty
two that was a broken leg, Yes, yes, and he's
been mostly healthy since then. Coming off that year, it
was like, ooh, is this going to be it for him?
But he came back and stayed healthy and got rewarded,
got a new contract. Good player.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I would say that if this Denver Broncos. The current
iteration of the Broncos does what Frankly, Diana Rassinis thinks
that is going to happen, and they're starting to talk
about which is the two words I almost asked Sean
Payton about today to extend his press conference about forty
two minutes, Thank you, super bull. If that's the case,
and there's no doubt that Garrett Bowles, if he's a
(25:25):
part of that, he is, without questioning, a Ring of Famer.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I believe the story gets written in the next two years.
Well like right now, he's he's put himself in a
position to be able to write the ending of that story,
and it could be that of a Ring of Fame
player in that of like a guy that we would
call the Broncos legend. It's it's not there yet, but
we'll see.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
He and Courtland Sutton, would they be the two faces
of going from the doldrums of yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
Yeah, right now Simmons gone, yeah, Simmons would have been
the face of they actually see it through the lessons
was the sixteen draft Bowles was seventeen sudden eighteen.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah, those guys were both on a lot of really
bad offense.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Remember there was a minute, there was a point in
time before we saw Bradley Chubb not able to stay
healthy where it looked like they nailed the eighteen draft
because they got sudden. They got Chubb, then they get
a running back out of that draft too, and then
all the good stuff slowly just faded. And was Josie Jewel.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
That draft was? That?
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Was that?
Speaker 2 (26:20):
The Royce Freeman Roman?
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yes, I like it a little bit.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
And then who was the Remember there was a Penn
State corner we thought was going to be pretty good
or maybe he was a receiver, the slot receiver.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Oh god, and I can he.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Was always he would get open, but they wouldn't either
throw it to him or when they did, he.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Wouldn't catch it.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
The whole, the whole bag on him was that he
was an elite route runner. I was actually I was
at Cosa Benita when they drafted him. They were doing
the announcement they'd like the cliff divers announced the pick
and then jump into the water, and that's where I was.
I was there covering it that very day. K j
han Haler, that's.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
A different draft. No, Hamler was the handler was the second.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Picking the twenty eighteen draft receiver third or fourth round
was Bradley Chubb, Courtland Sutton, Royce Freeman.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Sean Hamilton, Dank, Sean Hamilton, thank you.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Oh we heard about was Wow, he's in the right spot.
He runs great routes.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah, remember Isaac got him.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Oh yeah, he was another one big Boston College corner.
I believe that was supposed to be real physical.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
He's in the league now when he's like kind of
had a career, and you know he was also he
was a Niner last year. Isaac Yadham.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
Yeah, he was another classic guy.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
You know.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
You and I we talked a little bit about the
linebackers that would We talked on your show, the linebackers
that love to make the tackles right at the sticks,
which I feel like jewel And and Singleton did a
little too much of a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
They they get the recorded tackle, but the running back
falls for a yard.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Well after Stadham was the classic.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I was.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
I was a step away from knocking the ball down,
but I didn't.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
So I have to tackle the almost guy. Yeah, the
one that you have to bring up horse.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
But you're not.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
You never want a corner to have too many tackles.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Now, that's not good.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
That's not a good statistical marker for a cornerback.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Yeah. Yeah, do you remember that, Adam?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
You know what I'm talking?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Oh sure, he was always right there.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Also in draft, while I'm hanging out with my friend
from it from the Great State of Illinois, I learned
that your high school spelled differently, but Illos w Conda, Illinois. Yeah,
you know anything about what Bonzie Valley High School?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
In the Bonze Valley we used to used to play
baseball against those guys.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Any any idea who came out of all powerhouse who
came out of wa Bonzie Valley that was drafted for
the Denver Broncos in twenty and eighteen.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
In twenty and eighteen, was.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
It Carlos something?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I'll give you a hint. Troy.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
I was so happy when they know the Wisconsin tight end.
So so Tyler and I were doing our morning show
at the Bronco only station at the time, and we
actually got a chance to hook up with Troy's coach,
and I thought he'd make it. It was like one
of those picks that you got right and then wish
five years later you hadn't. I'm like I'd make a
great Bronco. They love their big ten tight ends. Fumagali
(29:11):
was the third and a string of Remember you went
with Jeff Hireman out of Ohio State, then Jake butt
out of Michigan, then Fumacgali out of Wisconsin. None of those,
None of those guys worked out now and the best
one ended up being Hireman. I will say, I always
wonder what Hireman. Hireman's the reason why he's one of
the group of guys that why guys why they've changed
what the rookie camp looks like because he'd come right
(29:34):
out of working for the Combine goes into Kubiak in
twenty sixteen. They go in and he's doing his rookie
camp running drills and blows the knee out and that's
it for his rookie year.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Talking about big ten tight ends that were misses in
the Denver Broncos and frankly, he has been a miss
in the National Football League. You can count me as
somebody who is guilty as charged for thinking that Noahfense
was a can't miss prospect. How did you guys feel
about Noah freak of an athlete when he was drafted?
Did you feel like there was gonna be a world
existed that he did not really pan out and materializes
(30:05):
any form of a success story in Denver. Here was
nor Seattle by the way, here was.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
My question though? Was another Iowa tight end when twelve
picks ahead? Yeah, he was the second guy who was
t J Hawkins.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Yeah he was the dynamic good yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Pretty good player. And it's like, wait, you got the
you got the second guy, how's this gonna work out?
Speaker 1 (30:25):
And if I'm mistaken, they were in the same tight
end room at least for a year at Iowa with
George Kittle as well. Yes, that's crazy.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Yeah, I I let's just say a deep intel t
G A hushmazoo, hush maza hushman Zada, hushman Zada worked
him out. And it told a buddy of mine, that
is the uh that is the biggest non athlete athlete
I've ever worked with, just no quick twitch and you
saw it.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
A straight line guy.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
You want to know what Nate and I. Nate would
often when we were bored after a bad Bronco Sunday,
and believe me, there were plenty of them. He liked
to wind me up and bring up the Noah Fan
catching the ball because what they loved. The favorite play
of the Vic Fangio era was to throw to Noah
Fan two yards away from the sticks, thinking the big
boy would break a tackle and get that first down.
You and I talked about he never did. He was
(31:13):
the king, how small the tide the corner was. He
was getting down as soon as he called it.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
He was the king of getting six yards on third
and eight.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah he did.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
He never broke a tackle in his Bronco career, never
broke a tackle, never made anybody miss. He just got He's.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
He just got a new gime with Cincinnati.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Okay, Noah Fan still in the NFL. But yeah, that
was a that was another first round with.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
And Yet would he have been I've asked this question,
had they decided to bring him back, would he not
have been their most kind of two way tied in
They got like he would have been in the middle
of Troutman and Ingram. Yes, had they signed him here,
which the second time around, And I don't know if
I'd have hated it as much, But I'll be honest,
when I found out one of the reasons why I
wasn't angry about the Russell Wilson trade. It actually did
(31:59):
lee to excitement. Was I knew they weren't long for
the world with Drew Locke, and I knew Noah Fan
wasn't gonna be a long term moronco Easy either. The
guy we were upset about was Shelby Harris because he
was our buddy and did the show for a while
and was actually a good Bronco. But if the players
they gave up, none of those dudes were long term
playing Bronco.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Now.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
It was the PA that felt like, we were like,
all right, so what that's what you give up. Now
it turns out it was a horrible trade. Horrible trade.
But at the time when they gave up those three players,
nobody in this radio show was upset about.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
I didn't miss those guys.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
And look, no offense been fine. Let me ask you this, coach,
how about I ask.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
You this turn investment for no offense. God not been
good for any team.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
The By the way, Seattle got a starting left tackle
in a starting corner.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Again, they didn't lose the trade because you paid Russell
Wilson to go away before a single down played on
that contract extension. You gave him that said, Seattle didn't
exactly smack that trade out of the park. You got
you had two shots at the top five quarterback. You
didn't take one either time, which is a really good player,
really good player. But again, they're starting, but they're hoping
(33:08):
a guy that was, you know, the third overall pick
in a draft that wasn't their draft pick is going
to be their answer at the quarterback position. I've got
a question for you about first round picks. But I'll
tell you what. Let's do it now. Let's keep me
and Ate out of trouble. We're gonna do what we
gotta do. We're gonna hand a little business. But I
want your philosophy on a first round pick. When we
come back, it is Crackman and Lindall. It's a Scott
(33:31):
Friday the Sandman joining us here because he's a Scott
Friday fan. That's the only way you get to be
on this show on a Friday.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Can I get it? Honestly? Can I get I want
to be known now as Coach Scofford on just on Friday,
Coach Scanford, Scanford, Scofford, Mike Scofford. No, yeah, I think
we're both feeling Scanford Sanford like landas Scott Friday.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
It's got to stay true to the name. You're not
Mike Sanford. Very true, you know what I'm saying, or suffered.
What is the best use of the word ska in
a ska band's name, skaking pickles.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
That one's pretty pretty good, the singler.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, my two votes. One you've heard of was the
great Mephis scofil Yes, that's what I was trying to be,
satanic ska band from New York. The other that the
Christian They were awesome. The other was a band and
they were We saw him. They were trying, they were
doing their best, but they had an elite name. Luke
Skywalker was the name of the band. Very good, Yes, yes,
(34:34):
all right, go ahead, all right, Well, you know.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
It's good to bring up elite. So here's where we're at.
Here's what I always think is interesting, you know, And
and I know you've done college football, not really a
pro guy, but we always come down to a debate.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
La.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
You know what I'll borrow. I'll borrow an example of
your podcast partner. You can feel right now, the DMC
is really bothered that they took John A. Baron with
that top pick because he's not going to be an
official starter on the outside. He talks about it a
lot right for me. And this is where like I'll
give you Tim Tebow as an example. Tim Tebow I
(35:08):
think could have found a way to be worthy of
that twenty fifth pick you spent, had he been all
in on just being the do it all frankly, to
borrow the Sean Payton term, the joker weapon of the
Josh McDaniels offense. We're in the red zone. He was
the weapon you couldn't stop if he would have accrued
ten to fifteen tds and he's the problem at the
in the red zone that you know then that that
(35:29):
was a worthwhile first round pick if you get a
couple three four years out of that. I know ideally
everybody wants the ten year answer of something, but sometimes
you just get a good player, you know what, you
know who was a good player and I'm trying to
remember his name, so maybe he wasn't as good as
i'd like. Give me the defensive lineman the no Sean
moreno draft played from a couple of years. They got
(35:51):
him at eighteen, Nate, who is their defensive lineman that
they tried to turn.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
To the Giants. Yeah, discussing the names those No, no,
it wasn't Robert Airs.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Williams was a nose tackle.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
So Robert Airs had a good NFL career.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
He did.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
And when you know what, when they got out of
the Josh McDaniel's era and went to John Fox, they
put his hand down in the ground. He was a
starter on the Super Bowl team. He was a good,
solid starter. This is all in the vein of the
Noah fan conversation. So it sucks a that the guy
was not a good ten year starter for you. But
if you just get a solid football player out of
(36:31):
the first round, is that the least you can expect
from it? Or do you have to hit superstar?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Have you failed?
Speaker 4 (36:37):
If you haven't found the superstar.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Gas second contract, still a part of your team, still
a starter to worry. That's what.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
That's what, because let's be honest, that's yeah, that's what
Garrett Bulls is.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Garrett Bulls at this stage of his career, slam ends
up being first round pick.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Didn't look like a three bust. Okay, bust, got a
problem labeling it that. But for the Denver Broncos, you
bust if he doesn't in your team.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
For second contract. Is that it is that that's.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
And you shouldn't want to use said player as as
a chip in a trade agreed if they're that value
the contract.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
By the way, he was like a four and a
half million dollar player.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
To me, a good example of a successful first round
draft pick for a NFL franchise that got traded before
its second contract. That's I mean, it's a pretty deep.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Cut right there.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Yeah, that's a lot of Do you think chat GPT
has an answer on that one?
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Okay, But but like here's let me give a different
way of viewing this. And I know sometimes like one
of the things we talk about the business and transaction
of sport far too often, and and it kind of
kills me a little bit sometimes. But like, if you
take a guy and you get four or in the
(37:56):
case of the fifty year option, five good years out
of the player, and he is on a rookie contract,
thus he is below market and you get a good
contribution out of him, and then he moves on, that's
not necessarily a bad thing. I know these guys weren't
first round picks, but I'll use the two examples of
Malik Jackson and Danny Trevathan two Broncos that you drafted
(38:17):
that were both excellent players and that were starters on
Super Bowl teams, and you had to move on because
you just can't pay everybody, right Like that, That's that's
a part of NFL reality too, Like a in a
perfect world, the Broncos would get to a place where,
like they're hitting on enough draft picks, the guys are
walking out the door and moving on because you just
can't sign everybody.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
Right. No, I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
But to me, as a capology sort of element to
this conversation, I agree.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
But see, to me, it's always about the specific. Here's
why I bring up the first round in particular. Okay,
I feel sometimes a guy gets labeled to bust, even
like Robert Airis would be it. Guy went on to
have a pretty good.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Double digit career. Yep, was he really a bust?
Speaker 1 (39:00):
No?
Speaker 4 (39:00):
Did he make? Was he the outside rush linebacker that
Josh McDaniels tried to convince us he was gonna be?
I was told by one guy have a quick twitch move,
you know, bone in his body by his old defensive coordinator,
you know, But again, he was a solid guy. He
played for the Giants in number of years. I look,
I don't know if it ended up being a bad
(39:21):
pick now, no offense. Yeah, that didn't feel like a
really great pick. But again that's where you know was brought.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Was Bradley Chubb a bust for the Denver Poscos?
Speaker 4 (39:29):
Unfortunately? Yes, yes, because you know what, and part of
it's what you took him. First off, you took him
at five. Secondly, you passed on all sorts of players
from Quintin Nelson right behind him to Josh Allen. Right,
guess pretty good it, Mr Jackson at the end of
the round. I mean, we could go on and on
and on.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
I'm not just trying to find exceptions to the rule.
But here, here's this. This guy's an interesting case study
to me. Bradley Robie, Okay, you used a first round
pick on him. You did not give him a second contract.
He was the starting nickel corner on a Super Bowl
winning team.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
In a vital piece of that.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Now, did Bradley Roby turn into a star NFL corner? Like,
there's no All pros, there's no Pro Bowls, there's there's
nothing like that. And he went on to have a
lengthy NFL career elsewhere, but again for what you needed
in that moment. Did he become a star, No, but
he was a He was a quality player, and he
filled a knee that you had on your football team
because again you had depth elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Were his last several years hampered by injury or no?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Roby, No, he was. He was in and out of
injury because because remember he was in Houston, and then
was he like Saint Philadelphia was a Saint. I believe
you're right about that.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Those are those are the four teams Broncos, Texans, deep
cuts on a player likes But yeah, first round draft
pick was a part of Like that's an interesting case study,
interesting player.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
As a coach, how often does this happen? What was
wild about Roby is he was actually very good as
the as the nickel guy whatever. But he could not
take second receiver. He could not be the starting he
couldn't be Riley Moss. Whenever he was asked to be
Riley Moss, it didn't go very well. But when he
was allowed to come in and be the nickel guy
and just kind of mix in those extra receiver packages,
(41:11):
he was a really good player.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
What is the minimum amount of years that a quarterback
has to be your starter to be considered a first
round hit.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
That's a good call.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
It's a second contract, you think, so it's more that
than probably.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
That second contract. But you're barely making the playoffs, so
you're just kind of in and out of there right away.
Like what's the success.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Rate the fifth year if you get if you're the
starter in the fifth year, you're you're you're.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
What if they don't set the market, wouldn't it be
the I mean, look, we all know, just because you
get to set the market as QB doesn't mean you're
the best QB at the league, in the league at
the time. It just means it's your turn for a
How many.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Examples are there of quarterbacks that are somewhere in that
gray area?
Speaker 4 (41:55):
How about Trevor Lawrence, he gotta set the market. I
still don't know what that guy is. And that's a
guy really high hope for it.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
I think he's supposed to be good. But all right,
what about what.
Speaker 4 (42:03):
About Justin Herbert, a guy that we all look, I.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Think he's a star by okay, yeah, but he's not
won a lot to be a star.
Speaker 4 (42:09):
How many playoff wins does he have zero?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
He didn't have any. It's been in the playoffs twice,
but he didn't have any wins.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
I mean, now, listen, he also is playing at one
of the worst times to be in the AFC. Poor
Josh Allen and the Lamar Jackson, two MVP winners are
trying to get over the hump that is Patrick Mahomes.
Then you got Joe Burrow hanging out there. Who got
to a super Bowl, but that's only been one time.
And then you got guys like Herbert and what funny enough,
the one time Lawrence won a game was over Herbert
(42:36):
in a massive comeback.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
He brought up the original question with reference to John A. Baron,
is drafting a first round player that is in a
even a one hundred percent starter. He hasn't played outside
corner but five snaps of training camp, and it's only
been in base defensive personnel. When you have who was
qu Campbell before he got he got banged up, He
(43:00):
wasn't out there today. Q was playing that true Sam linebacker,
that real four to three style. That's the only time
I've seen johnay Baron outside at corner.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Okay, so let's let's use this example right now, and
again this is only his rookie season. But how does
Johnnay Baron best help the Broncos right now? It's as
an inside corner on a team that has Patrick Sartan
and Riley Moss, and both of those guys are outstanding players.
You put John day Baron on the inside, you use
Ja Kwan McMillan on the inside.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
They did it today in dial package, both on the
field today. It was a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
They're gonna have four corners on the field, four very
good corners on the field. In dime situation, you can blitz,
you can blitz either one of them. You can do
a lot of things with that group. But that's that's
exactly what it is. Like, Okay, you're a first round pick,
but you're not starting on the outside right now. But
the team also doesn't need you to. There's also this argument,
and that's why I don't I don't think there's any
(43:50):
necessity to have a well isy an outside corner conversation
because everything is a three corner defense. Basically in today's
NF you sent plus you have to have that nickel
guy on the field all the time. Like Tod we've
been talking about how are they gonna use Marvin Mims,
And he's talking about going back and looking at slot
cut ups of things that Jerry Judy does, like who's
(44:11):
gonna who's gonna be the guy that covers a Puka
Nakua type of player, Like those kind of weapons that
all these offenses are trying to find right now, Like
you have to have three good starting corners if you're
gonna have a legitimate NFL defense today, and it just
so happens one of them has a different role. But
my response to it is who cares.
Speaker 4 (44:31):
No, I'm with you. And look, from what Jeff Lakewalt's
told us from the word go is they drafted and
to be the inside move around guy.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
They loved him because he could play all the positions
in the second that guy not just go take right
like everybody thought when he got drafted. Well, Riley Moss
is going, I don't think that's how they looked at it.
You gotta have an outstanding secondary.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
You shown me today that has two good corners, and
I will tell you, okay, who's your third? You just
you need more of those bodies. By the way, a
couple of other notes on this McMillan is still really
good guys. Chris Abrams Drains had a really good camp.
Speaker 4 (45:02):
I wouldn't get rid of that.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
He's probably your third corner right now, probably on the side.
YEA true. Like if you got into a pickle with
either Riley Moss or Pats or ten second out, Yeah,
I wouldn't borrow John A. Barron nor Jaquan McMillan from
Nickel and Dime, Pack and play and he's long you
knowed him, He's he's already has evidence of ball skills
(45:27):
in NFL games.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Got a second exception, good secondary, Jeff Lakewell, coming up
to twenty minutes after four o'clock, we'll talk about Bow's
interception filled day that Scanford is trying to It was.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
One interception that would have stood after the penalties on
the defense.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Gonfor Hey, it's got to be Scanford. It's all it
takes to lose a game.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I'm from the birthplace of SKA and I'm gonna let
it stand with Mike Scufford.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Here from Kingston, Jamaica. It's the Craig Lindall Show, Altitude
Sports Radio ninety two to five
To absorb information and memorize it and regard it. So
all how in God's Green Earth. Over the course of
the last three years, has Russell Wilson memorized entire rosters
that he recites at press conferences for new teams.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Annual does have that gift, but like he's got the
he's got it work out, oh you know it.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Flash just doesn't seem like a Cary. He doesn't seem
like a quick wit, spit it out kind of a guy.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
He can memorize some things. I bet he's like really
good at like the state capitol test. I bet he's
really good at that. That's just it's memorization.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
He has to sing the song to do it, though,
the state capitol song.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I know there's a there's a state song.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
There's a state song.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Well, there's a state capitol song.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I know a president's song.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
There's a capital song, but I don't know if it's
state or world. I think it's state. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
The only song I know for memorization is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Joshua.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Matthew, Mark and Luke and John and Act and then
there's Romans. I remember I remember that. Non do the
state capitol song, I don't. I actually don't know that.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Sacramento much.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Your state capital.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Now I'm unbelievable. Are you really believable?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Ma and Augusta man West Virginia, Charleston, Okay, very very good.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Uh well, Vermont.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
I just gave it to you.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
New Hampshire, New Hampshire, Montana is Helena, Helena. Who would
you say, in New Hampshire, that's Delaware.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Excuse me?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
No, Hampshire, Providence, No, that's no, that's Rhode Island, Manchester, Manchester.
I just gave it to you.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I meant to stity New Hampshire. You were doing good.
Now start stay in New England.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Though about every eight years of Connecticut? What's Connecticut? Connecticut?
Come on? Man stores, Tadford. I don't think so. I
don't know.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Let's I don't think it is.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Well, what what's what's up for grabs? Right now?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Friday? Right, it's Friday.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
It is Hartford, it is Hardford, it is hard for
and I even.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I even threw in the New England accent.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
God, we didn't have that Home of the whalers, Home
of the whalers, that's right used to be. Joe Quenville
played for the Hartford Whalers showing off. It was a
defenseman there.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Illinois.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I don't know Springfield.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
I didn't claim I didn't know.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I didn't sit here bragging about my state capital. Every
state has a Springfield, it's just ours is the capitol.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I didn't know that I had a Banger's Washington Rockington. Uh,
it's the one where they have the beer stubby bottles,
stubby stubby little short bottle.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yes it is he. By the way, was there an
intermission during the Sean Payton pres conference the day so
people get snacks? O?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
God, I almost I truly most elongated by another ten dude.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Okay, okay, okay, guys, serious, you didn't get a question
in No, I did.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Oh alright, So I almost wanted the second question at
the end because I and I'm glad I didn't because
apparently everybody was just about ready.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Okay, So the last the last twelve minutes of it
were we we could have just completely done without and
and it got into him being basically like giving a
lecture on the history of football animals, that is, asking
questions after the fifteen minute mark. The guy that's on
the other station, you got.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
To be kidding me.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
There are a lot of second and third and fourth
fifth questions.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
And here's what okay, what are you doing? This? Also
is is what what annoyed me about the question? Okay?
Is that the question it was like framed in that
like the youel except football analytics thing. It was like
it was, let me frame this in the in the
nerds versus jocks debate that exists around the word capital
A analysts. Do you guys know what football analytics actually are? Information?
(04:04):
That's all it is. It's just information. It is information
that is used to inform decision making. Okay, Sean Payton
was explaining all of that information used to determine do
I want to draft this player because is he tall
enough enough the proper size to be able to play
this position? And information on do I want to go
for it right here or do I want to go
(04:25):
for two? It's just all it means is information. People
act like there's some quant nerd with a calculator up
there punching it all in and telling it no, it's
just information. It's just data. And here here is information,
and now make make a decision based upon the evidence
and data that is put directly in front of you.
That's all it is. That doesn't mean that everyone is
(04:47):
like digging into what's the DVLA of this play on
second down to nine and what's the expected points added
per drop back for the quarterback? And that stuff is
absolutely out there. But guess what, the coaches that are
making a decision play in and play out, that's not
what they're basing it on. They're simply basing it upon it.
Do you have a higher likelihood of success if you
(05:09):
do this versus if you do that? That's it. Yeah,
that's that's what football analytics are now. Like you can
get into like the data nerds stuff, and I like
some of that stuff, and I'll dig into it and
it'll give me more evidence for an argument or whatever
it is on my radio show.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
That stuff's good for after the facts. Absolutely a CPOE
completion percentage over expectation that you're not getting that short.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
He's using that. In that moment, he did drop a
great note of like he looked at bo Nicks as
a college quarterback and one out of eighty two of
his college snaps and resulted in a negative play. Okay,
I would look at that data point and I would say, well,
if Sean Payton as a football coach, but the most
important thing that you want is a quarterback avoiding negative plays,
which is what he wanted. That was why he hated
(05:55):
Russell Wilson because he took one hundred sacks and two
seasons here in Denver. So he looked at Sean Payton
and he said, who is less likely to take a
negative play? I'm sure he looked at pressure ratio, which
is a great number to be able to look at
pressure to sack ratio of like, okay, how often are
you just folding up and making your team lose yardage?
Bo was very good at that, all right, But like
(06:16):
that's the stuff that they're using.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Who are you pissed at?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I just everybody, And I'm pissed at how dumb the
the discourse has become around data and information in sports.
It has become so idiotic and everybody has lost their
mind because there's like new statistical evidence and new statistical
markers that have been put in front of us with
(06:40):
new initials that we don't understand. And I got to
learn about VORP.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Now, no, you don't you know what the most ironic
aspect of football guys that cannot stand NERD analytics guys,
what's that is? If you're an offensive or defensive play
caller over the last forty years, Yeah, you operate rate
based off the probabilities that are actual data of cover
(07:04):
two versus cover one, of pressure versus non pressure as
a play caller. And then if you're a defensive minded
guy and you're calling defensive calls in this personnel grouping,
are they what percent run versus what percent past is? Say? Yes,
so you're you're doing that And everybody who hates the
quote unquote new world of analytics, Yeah, they've.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Been doing that stuff for thirty five forty years forever.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
My dad was doing that. You get seventy one years old.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
But you can get into, as they just said, deeper,
deeper stuff and you said a post game, that's what
you've been diving into. That can now add information to
the information that you already have.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And really, why the guys that should be using that stuff,
And Scotty, you come from a sport that and you
have watched it over the last two decades. Really the
way that analytics have informed the sport of basketball, particularly
about shot shot taking and shot choice. Essentially and they
want you taking corner threes. They want threes and layups.
(08:03):
The mid range jump shot is a lower a lower
efficiency shot, so you see less of that in the game.
Free throws are a higher efficiency possession. And that is
the way that the game is now coached today. But again, like,
is is David Adaman or Michael Malone or they standing
on a sideline and thinking about all that data in
real time? No they're not. They're coaching the game directly
(08:26):
in front of them. Upstairs, there's you. You have an
R and D department that is now doing this work,
and that is digging into it and saying is this
player a good fit for our system? And should we
be taking more of these shots? All those kind of things.
But that has nothing to do with what is happening
in game in a huddle or anything else like that.
And and that again, like we have just like lost
(08:49):
the discussion on this stuff so badly. It has been
devolved into this dumb jocks and nerds debate that makes
me insane. Here's the problem, Sandman's dead on. They've been
using it forever.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
What once it got started coming to the forefront and
becoming out of the closet, so to speak. Right, The
problem was you had the nerds became elitists and say
you're stupid, you're just a dumb jock. And the dumb
jock says, you've never played and you don't know what.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
You're talking about.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
And you set up kind of like right now and
Republican's Democrats. We set up battle lines and either side's
ready to say, hey, what if we reach over and
actually that's not a bad point.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, we actually agree on these points. We could actually
do something this giant middle ground, and instead they.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Set up battlegrounds initially that I think are slowly getting
chipped away and there's more of a neutral zone. Now.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, what's so funny about Sean Payton today is is
he took that question and then it had to just
be like again, in so many words, you're just talking
about information, and every coach wants more information. Now, you
don't want to be buried in the information.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Become handy. You want me to dumb down this conversation completely.
I think he goes along and things like that on minutia,
if you will, on stuff that could be answered simply
because his offense was absolutely horrid today.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
It is it is It is a absolute selection. Oh
my gosh. Philibuster. Yeah, it was the ultimate philibuster.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
That's what I took.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
But so I would take it that way. I also
took it. If you're going to ask of somebody that's
a high profile individual, Sean Payton is one of the
most I'd say one of the ten most high profile
coaches in American sport.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
I think he's up there.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
What's the most valuable commodity that he can give the
media time? Yeah, And so we can sit here and
and kind of poke fun at the fact that he
went thirty three minutes. I know what the life of
a coach is like on the other end of it,
and the fact that he did give thirty three minutes
to the media, while at times it probably was a
little bit long winded in some of the answers, I
(10:54):
thought he's very thoughtful. Like I sat around and like,
for me as a football guy, I've I have become
a bigger fan of Sean Payton than I was prior
to covering this team the way I am because I
actually pick little tiny things up, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I had a conversation with Vic today as we were
listening to it and it's and Scotty, you'll know exactly
what I'm talking about. He reminded me of George Carl today.
George Carl was excellent at like Honestly, there were days
where after George Carl finished his media availability, you could
kind of just hang out and talk hoops with him,
(11:30):
and he was more than happy to do so. He'd
sit there and talk basketball with you for an hour,
and he'd give you a history lesson.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
I could tell how many conversations I had sitting in
a bar with a beer right like on the road somewhere,
just talking basketball.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
And how often did he take salt shakers and start
diagramming things out in front of you. And that was
what it was like to talk to George Carl about, honestly,
like what was interesting about Sean today? And again he
doesn't necessarily do that, But football culture has always kind
of been we'll keep it buttoned up. Everything's proprietary. Okay,
it's it's paranoia, or it's I'm trying to find whatever
(12:03):
edge I had. Exactly, I don't know what it is
about the culture of basketball. Basketball coaches will talk your
ear off.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Except for Mike Malone. Right, did you feel like at
times Mike Malone almost it was at times did you
feel like it was auto pilot he was in just like.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Very much.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
You didn't want to catch him on the road in
Portland four days before he gets fired.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
That was, yeah, without a doubt. But also like he
he was also a guy that could actually give you
thoughtful answers to things. I actually thought Malone was was
very gregarious with the media and.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
At the tail end is what's fresh in my mind.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Right, And Malone was also one of those guys like
national reporters were always like, hey, I I absolutely love
Michael Malone because he'll just sit there and talk hoops
with me. Peyton today and I don't know who the
reporter was, but she was doing a story on Declan Doyle,
who was the Broncos tight ends coach last year, who
was now the OC in Chicago under Ben Johnson. He
(13:00):
got that gig as far as they could still be
sitting on that bench talking right now for all I know,
like they were because we were waiting for Paul Chesky
to come out and talk to us today. They were
chatting forever. But I think again she asked Sean about
a topic that he was interested in which was a
guy that was, you know, an old quality control coach
of his and now Sean's like, hey, I can fluff
(13:21):
this dude and fluff my own coaching tree.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Ny, you mentioned that the football culture is one that
all the information is just kept very tight, right close
to the vest I asked the question today, one of
several questions that got actually, I think it was more
than a ninety second answer to answer from Sean Payton.
And as I was asking the question, I'm sitting there
like I'm internally panicking, saying that this might be a
(13:45):
question as this press conference is broadcast at least on
the on the interweb, Yeah, that it might give too
much information about what I saw at practice, and pissed
Sean Payton off because it was about the versatility of
having an Evan Ingram. You can basically give the look
of ten personnel, which is no tight ends for wide receivers,
because that's frankly what he is. Then you can also
(14:06):
give the presentation of eleven personnel in two minutes today. Obviously,
Evan Ingram is the one guy in there, and it
looks a little bit like somewhere in between ten and
eleven personnel.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
So the dumbed down version of that question is what's
it like to have that kind of a hybrid tight
end receiver player.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yes, but I mentioned also that today was a two
minute showed the versatility of why you added jah day Baron. Yeah,
and you yet keep Jaquan McMillan because they were in
dime personnel, which is something that I've been talking about
for the last five weeks six weeks that that draft pick.
It makes sense when you're playing against a team that
throws the living crap out of the football and plays
(14:41):
with three, if not four wide receivers on the field
at one time, why would you not have Jaquan McMillan
and John Day Baron in there? And Sean Payton gave
a really thoughtful answer, It's always trying to find who
are the guys that can cover? Right, Like if you're
a man coverage team, the more players.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I think he said something to the effect too of
like you could never have enough cover guys.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Yes, on to the one, and it was I was like,
after I got the answer or the question at out,
I was like, oh gosh, what's he gonna do? Gotta
give too much? Awa great answer, Yeah, it was fantastic.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Yeah, but you did a coach question and you didn't.
You didn't do a muggle from an internet show. You're
a cute little no.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
He he's a coach from an internet show.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
He did he didn't do a muggle question from a
cute internet show. All right, I get at her. I
said to Broncos offense here, So I described Broncos offense today.
It took a ned Beatty from Deliverance.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I heard that earlier.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I loved it more like bo picks.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Am.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I right, we'll take a break, we'll come back. We'll
talk about the offense's performance today. Ladies and gentlemen, the
great Scott Hastings. You listen to him every day noon
to three right here on Altitude Sports or are you in
ninety two five? Yes, it is sca Friday. By the way,
I got a text message, don't worry my my rant
to open the show with statistician approved, So thank you
(15:56):
for that need I needed that today. Craikman, it's Aye Lindahl.
It's the Sandman, Mike Sandford with us here on Altitude
Sports Radio ninety two five. All right, let's just start
with this today, guys. One of the stories of camp
Bo Nicks had not thrown any interceptions today. He couldn't
stop throwing interceptions.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Uh four of them. I counted four today.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
How many of them would have actually stood as plays
on the field.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Out of flags, I think it was one real flaggy
out the type of a day it really was. The
the officials were busy out there throwing the old flags.
But all right, so you say, no big deal.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I think the bigger deal right now is tomorrow's move
the ball. Situational scrimmage probably needs to be yield some
semblance of positive juju, positive vibes for the shooter or
just just jew Jude, Jew and Jew without the smith
in the shoes here for the offensive unit, namely the
(16:56):
first string offensive unit, because that has been a tough
nine days of practice for that first unit.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
They're going up against arguably the best defense in the NFL,
certainly top five to say the least, and going up
against one of the best secondaries in the entire league.
But but again, today was a day and Whufoona made
a great play on the first pick, and Sewn was
sure to compliment that and made a point to kind
of defend his quarterback, so to speak. But it was
a pretty sick play that he made. Yeah, certain got
(17:25):
him on a throw intended for Courtland Sutton, which, as
Sean later said, was a play that Russell Wilson threw
an interception on against Houston. I think it was Stingley
that got him on that play, Derek Stingley.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I didn't actually catch that during the press or he
was He didn't use Russell's name, did he did?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
He said Russell? Okay, yeah, he said Russell.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
He's apparently in that thirty three minute diet tribe but
might have gotten lost you.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
You may have did your eyes glaze over just a
little bit, just a bit? Does guys? Are we going
to play the entire thirty three minutes today on the
show or what?
Speaker 4 (18:01):
I'm just trying to get the dang nine minutes you
and I waited three hours for and technology sucks and
I'm over it. So every time I think I'm sending
this thing to kJ you and I got to talk
with Alex Paulchesky. Did we actually had a fun conversation.
We did a lot of did some good things say
about bone Nicks, talks about the past rush we'd like
to bring it to you in its entirety, but somehow
we've got to get it off my phone into the
(18:21):
guy next door. Every way that I have just keeps
just keeps subterfusing me, And yeah, I hate it.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Alex Paulchwski started his college career at the University of Illinois,
played for Love, and then finished his career at the
University of Illinois. Yeah, how cool is that.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
He was there in the entire Blima right, Uh, I
played for he was there for blam six years, lots
of time.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Games I coached against the dude twice. He Uh, if he.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Pulled out the numbers yesterday, I believe if it weren't
a forty million dollar dead cab hit to release Mike mclinchey,
they might think about something there, because that think Pallchwsky's
done a real good job.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Paul chose a. He's a dude man.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Yeah, he is a.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Great swing tackle. And you remember a year ago at
this time, we were panicking about Quinn Bailey's broken leg. Yeah,
and training camp that even like you like you had
mentioned that they don't have necessarily at the time, we
didn't have an established swing tackle and Alex Poulchesski and
Matthew Pert have not only become really reliable backup tackles,
they both can jump, they can bounce inside and have
(19:27):
already done it so far this training camp. Because they're
they're both versatile type players.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah, I think Palchweski, like the swing tackle job is
basically going to be his. One of the other parts
of it too, guys. And I've made this point to
Andy and over and over again, and like, look, is
this based in any evidence. No, it's just based in likelihood. Okay,
whatever analytic that is. They've been so healthy in their
offensive line over the last two years, the odds of
(19:54):
that happening again are pretty low.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Last year was about was it about five total starts
missed by the entire unit. It was.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
It was like that the year before too, yea.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I think he might have even been healthier the year before.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
It was wild.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
So last year you had Wattenberg out for a game.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, Forsyth I think played for him. Uh, Palchwski made
I think three is for mclinchey, two or three starts
last year. Yeah for mcglinche, because I think.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Both seventeen out of seventeen.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, he played every game last season, Power Powers. I
think missed a game, Yeah, a game minors see miners
played everything, second team All Pro.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
So he was I think it was five, five or
six man days missed.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
How many offenses have you coordinated or teams have you
coached where all five offensive linemen stayed healthy for a
full season.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Doesn't happen, even even just the high ankle sprain, which
happens all the time. The roll up. Yeah, you get
rolled over and always looks like, oh, it's his a
cl it's almost always a high ankle spray.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
You typically you know you you you miss a game,
maybe two. You probably should miss about eight games because
it's that painful and you basically break it bone. It
just doesn't quite fully sever. Yeah, when you have a
high ankle sprain, but it's uh, you tape him up
in about four weeks later, they're they're ready to go.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, and that's okay, shoot him up and get back
in there. But yeah, mcglinchy'll be here this year because
it would cost him what was the number thirty nine
point one.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Yeah, forty million bucks.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Forty million bucks basically, so he's not going anywhere. He'll
he'll be here, you'll be like in the red Basically,
I think twenty three million dollars in cap and thirty
nine in dead cap. The out on McGlinchey is next year.
I think they would save like eight million bucks if
they were to cut him loose next season, if they
want to.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, because I mean, I know that Paul Chesky is
as a player that frankly is deserving of an opportunity
to start in the National Football League. But on the
flip side, is Mike McGlinchey in his twenty twenty four
campaign pretty damn good.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah, I don't they don't need the savings now.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Yeah, but you know again, he had whatever he had
going on beginning of camp and we all watched the
driol the other day. Where I watched, I heard plenty
of commentary about by multiple people with plenty of football
experience that you know, maybe we need to get the
get off a little bit quicker, maybe we need to
get a little wider. I'm just saying, if there's money
to be saved and you've got a young player, I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Why not.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Mike mclinchy's been a great free agent signing. I would
knock that. Now we know we had the mcflinchy, but
the year he was mcflinchy, so is everybody else because
Russell Wilson apparently doesn't keep a snap count for his
offensive line. But I'm just saying I've liked I like
Palchwski a lot, so I really do. And I just
think at some point, you know, look, you know, I
(22:33):
don't have to tell you. As a coach, I hear
it all the time, especially when you add in some
of those zone elements. You want five guys that grow together.
So they're like that unit this franchise was so proud
of back in the late nineties on their Super Bowl run.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I think that Mike mcglinchy is a huge part of
that unit though. In terms of the current Denver Broncos
and their identity is an offensive line that graded out
top three in the National Football League. I think it
was number one in pass blocking, tip five and run blocking. Yeah,
and he's a pretty I would say he's a pretty
vocal leader in that group. He's the elder Is he
(23:08):
the elder statesman? I guess Bowls Bulls? Is you mean
just experience? Yeah, year and years of years of older
than McGlinchey. I coached McGlinchey at twenty sixteen at Notre Dame.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, Bowles I think has been in the league longer.
I think now now I'm gonna dunt check.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
It's pretty comparable. Bulls was the seventeen draft.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, twenty seventeen. He was the twentieth overall.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
That might have come in the same year.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Mcglinchyes, rookie season.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Wha seventeen or eighteen, it's got to be because he
was at Notre Dame with me.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
In sixteen eighteen. Actually, okay, he was. So Bowles is
one more year in the NFL.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
So Mike, Mike mcglinchy feels like the elder statesman of
the group because as much as Garrett Poules has been
really solid, he's just there's like a it's almost like
he's got some rookie vibes to him. You're eight and nine.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Because we talked about earlier in the week, because I
threw it out there thinking about it. If we're really
going to talk about service to the team and what
he's done, and if you're looking to do some Ring
of Fame stuff from this era of Bronco football, which
is a lot of people resounding though and I have
no problem with it. It's not been a lot of winning.
When you've set a bar for yourself. What would you
think about a Garrett Bowles for a ring of fame?
(24:15):
Because a chance with the contract he got last year,
I think he finished his career as a Broncos. So
what does that count for? And Nate pointed it out aptly,
and a lot of the Texters agreed. He's had five
good years as a Bronco. He had an absolute disaster
of the first two years to where you weren't in
town yet. But John Away used to do his own
radio show and he was GM and he wondered aloud
on the air, does he know the holding rules? Is
(24:38):
how rough that was going for Garrett at the start?
Speaker 1 (24:40):
After that rough, he had a pretty.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Rough and nineteen were rough.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, twenty two was pretty rough as well in terms.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Of game yeah, right that the injury season in twenty
two that was a broken leg, Yes, yes, and he's
been mostly healthy since then. Coming off that year, it
was like, ooh, is this going to be it for him?
But he came back and stayed healthy and got rewarded,
got a new contract. Good player.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I would say that if this Denver Broncos. The current
iteration of the Broncos does what Frankly, Diana Rassinis thinks
that is going to happen, and they're starting to talk
about which is the two words I almost asked Sean
Payton about today to extend his press conference about forty
two minutes, Thank you, super bull. If that's the case,
and there's no doubt that Garrett Bowles, if he's a
(25:25):
part of that, he is, without questioning, a Ring of Famer.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I believe the story gets written in the next two years.
Well like right now, he's he's put himself in a
position to be able to write the ending of that story,
and it could be that of a Ring of Fame
player in that of like a guy that we would
call the Broncos legend. It's it's not there yet, but
we'll see.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
He and Courtland Sutton, would they be the two faces
of going from the doldrums of yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
Yeah, right now Simmons gone, yeah, Simmons would have been
the face of they actually see it through the lessons
was the sixteen draft Bowles was seventeen sudden eighteen.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah, those guys were both on a lot of really
bad offense.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Remember there was a minute, there was a point in
time before we saw Bradley Chubb not able to stay
healthy where it looked like they nailed the eighteen draft
because they got sudden. They got Chubb, then they get
a running back out of that draft too, and then
all the good stuff slowly just faded. And was Josie Jewel.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
That draft was? That?
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Was that?
Speaker 2 (26:20):
The Royce Freeman Roman?
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yes, I like it a little bit.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
And then who was the Remember there was a Penn
State corner we thought was going to be pretty good
or maybe he was a receiver, the slot receiver.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Oh god, and I can he.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Was always he would get open, but they wouldn't either
throw it to him or when they did, he.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Wouldn't catch it.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
The whole, the whole bag on him was that he
was an elite route runner. I was actually I was
at Cosa Benita when they drafted him. They were doing
the announcement they'd like the cliff divers announced the pick
and then jump into the water, and that's where I was.
I was there covering it that very day. K j
han Haler, that's.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
A different draft. No, Hamler was the handler was the second.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Picking the twenty eighteen draft receiver third or fourth round
was Bradley Chubb, Courtland Sutton, Royce Freeman.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Sean Hamilton, Dank, Sean Hamilton, thank you.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Oh we heard about was Wow, he's in the right spot.
He runs great routes.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah, remember Isaac got him.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Oh yeah, he was another one big Boston College corner.
I believe that was supposed to be real physical.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
He's in the league now when he's like kind of
had a career, and you know he was also he
was a Niner last year. Isaac Yadham.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
Yeah, he was another classic guy.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
You know.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
You and I we talked a little bit about the
linebackers that would We talked on your show, the linebackers
that love to make the tackles right at the sticks,
which I feel like jewel And and Singleton did a
little too much of a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
They they get the recorded tackle, but the running back
falls for a yard.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Well after Stadham was the classic.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
I was.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
I was a step away from knocking the ball down,
but I didn't.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
So I have to tackle the almost guy. Yeah, the
one that you have to bring up horse.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
But you're not.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
You never want a corner to have too many tackles.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Now, that's not good.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
That's not a good statistical marker for a cornerback.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Yeah. Yeah, do you remember that, Adam?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
You know what I'm talking?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Oh sure, he was always right there.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Also in draft, while I'm hanging out with my friend
from it from the Great State of Illinois, I learned
that your high school spelled differently, but Illos w Conda, Illinois. Yeah,
you know anything about what Bonzie Valley High School?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
In the Bonze Valley we used to used to play
baseball against those guys.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Any any idea who came out of all powerhouse who
came out of wa Bonzie Valley that was drafted for
the Denver Broncos in twenty and eighteen.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
In twenty and eighteen, was.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
It Carlos something?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I'll give you a hint. Troy.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
I was so happy when they know the Wisconsin tight end.
So so Tyler and I were doing our morning show
at the Bronco only station at the time, and we
actually got a chance to hook up with Troy's coach,
and I thought he'd make it. It was like one
of those picks that you got right and then wish
five years later you hadn't. I'm like I'd make a
great Bronco. They love their big ten tight ends. Fumagali
(29:11):
was the third and a string of Remember you went
with Jeff Hireman out of Ohio State, then Jake butt
out of Michigan, then Fumacgali out of Wisconsin. None of those,
None of those guys worked out now and the best
one ended up being Hireman. I will say, I always
wonder what Hireman. Hireman's the reason why he's one of
the group of guys that why guys why they've changed
what the rookie camp looks like because he'd come right
(29:34):
out of working for the Combine goes into Kubiak in
twenty sixteen. They go in and he's doing his rookie
camp running drills and blows the knee out and that's
it for his rookie year.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Talking about big ten tight ends that were misses in
the Denver Broncos and frankly, he has been a miss
in the National Football League. You can count me as
somebody who is guilty as charged for thinking that Noahfense
was a can't miss prospect. How did you guys feel
about Noah freak of an athlete when he was drafted?
Did you feel like there was gonna be a world
existed that he did not really pan out and materializes
(30:05):
any form of a success story in Denver. Here was
nor Seattle by the way, here was.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
My question though? Was another Iowa tight end when twelve
picks ahead? Yeah, he was the second guy who was
t J Hawkins.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Yeah he was the dynamic good yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Pretty good player. And it's like, wait, you got the
you got the second guy, how's this gonna work out?
Speaker 1 (30:25):
And if I'm mistaken, they were in the same tight
end room at least for a year at Iowa with
George Kittle as well. Yes, that's crazy.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Yeah, I I let's just say a deep intel t
G A hushmazoo, hush maza hushman Zada, hushman Zada worked
him out. And it told a buddy of mine, that
is the uh that is the biggest non athlete athlete
I've ever worked with, just no quick twitch and you
saw it.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
A straight line guy.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
You want to know what Nate and I. Nate would
often when we were bored after a bad Bronco Sunday,
and believe me, there were plenty of them. He liked
to wind me up and bring up the Noah Fan
catching the ball because what they loved. The favorite play
of the Vic Fangio era was to throw to Noah
Fan two yards away from the sticks, thinking the big
boy would break a tackle and get that first down.
You and I talked about he never did. He was
(31:13):
the king, how small the tide the corner was. He
was getting down as soon as he called it.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
He was the king of getting six yards on third
and eight.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah he did.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
He never broke a tackle in his Bronco career, never
broke a tackle, never made anybody miss. He just got He's.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
He just got a new gime with Cincinnati.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Okay, Noah Fan still in the NFL. But yeah, that
was a that was another first round with.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
And Yet would he have been I've asked this question,
had they decided to bring him back, would he not
have been their most kind of two way tied in
They got like he would have been in the middle
of Troutman and Ingram. Yes, had they signed him here,
which the second time around, And I don't know if
I'd have hated it as much, But I'll be honest,
when I found out one of the reasons why I
wasn't angry about the Russell Wilson trade. It actually did
(31:59):
lee to excitement. Was I knew they weren't long for
the world with Drew Locke, and I knew Noah Fan
wasn't gonna be a long term moronco Easy either. The
guy we were upset about was Shelby Harris because he
was our buddy and did the show for a while
and was actually a good Bronco. But if the players
they gave up, none of those dudes were long term
playing Bronco.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Now.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
It was the PA that felt like, we were like,
all right, so what that's what you give up. Now
it turns out it was a horrible trade. Horrible trade.
But at the time when they gave up those three players,
nobody in this radio show was upset about.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
I didn't miss those guys.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
And look, no offense been fine. Let me ask you this, coach,
how about I ask.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
You this turn investment for no offense. God not been
good for any team.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
The By the way, Seattle got a starting left tackle
in a starting corner.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Again, they didn't lose the trade because you paid Russell
Wilson to go away before a single down played on
that contract extension. You gave him that said, Seattle didn't
exactly smack that trade out of the park. You got
you had two shots at the top five quarterback. You
didn't take one either time, which is a really good player,
really good player. But again, they're starting, but they're hoping
(33:08):
a guy that was, you know, the third overall pick
in a draft that wasn't their draft pick is going
to be their answer at the quarterback position. I've got
a question for you about first round picks. But I'll
tell you what. Let's do it now. Let's keep me
and Ate out of trouble. We're gonna do what we
gotta do. We're gonna hand a little business. But I
want your philosophy on a first round pick. When we
come back, it is Crackman and Lindall. It's a Scott
(33:31):
Friday the Sandman joining us here because he's a Scott
Friday fan. That's the only way you get to be
on this show on a Friday.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Can I get it? Honestly? Can I get I want
to be known now as Coach Scofford on just on Friday,
Coach Scanford, Scanford, Scofford, Mike Scofford. No, yeah, I think
we're both feeling Scanford Sanford like landas Scott Friday.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
It's got to stay true to the name. You're not
Mike Sanford. Very true, you know what I'm saying, or suffered.
What is the best use of the word ska in
a ska band's name, skaking pickles.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
That one's pretty pretty good, the singler.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, my two votes. One you've heard of was the
great Mephis scofil Yes, that's what I was trying to be,
satanic ska band from New York. The other that the
Christian They were awesome. The other was a band and
they were We saw him. They were trying, they were
doing their best, but they had an elite name. Luke
Skywalker was the name of the band. Very good, Yes, yes,
(34:34):
all right, go ahead, all right, Well, you know.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
It's good to bring up elite. So here's where we're at.
Here's what I always think is interesting, you know, And
and I know you've done college football, not really a
pro guy, but we always come down to a debate.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
La.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
You know what I'll borrow. I'll borrow an example of
your podcast partner. You can feel right now, the DMC
is really bothered that they took John A. Baron with
that top pick because he's not going to be an
official starter on the outside. He talks about it a
lot right for me. And this is where like I'll
give you Tim Tebow as an example. Tim Tebow I
(35:08):
think could have found a way to be worthy of
that twenty fifth pick you spent, had he been all
in on just being the do it all frankly, to
borrow the Sean Payton term, the joker weapon of the
Josh McDaniels offense. We're in the red zone. He was
the weapon you couldn't stop if he would have accrued
ten to fifteen tds and he's the problem at the
in the red zone that you know then that that
(35:29):
was a worthwhile first round pick if you get a
couple three four years out of that. I know ideally
everybody wants the ten year answer of something, but sometimes
you just get a good player, you know what, you
know who was a good player and I'm trying to
remember his name, so maybe he wasn't as good as
i'd like. Give me the defensive lineman the no Sean
moreno draft played from a couple of years. They got
(35:51):
him at eighteen, Nate, who is their defensive lineman that
they tried to turn.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
To the Giants. Yeah, discussing the names those No, no,
it wasn't Robert Airs.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Williams was a nose tackle.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
So Robert Airs had a good NFL career.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
He did.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
And when you know what, when they got out of
the Josh McDaniel's era and went to John Fox, they
put his hand down in the ground. He was a
starter on the Super Bowl team. He was a good,
solid starter. This is all in the vein of the
Noah fan conversation. So it sucks a that the guy
was not a good ten year starter for you. But
if you just get a solid football player out of
(36:31):
the first round, is that the least you can expect
from it? Or do you have to hit superstar?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Have you failed?
Speaker 4 (36:37):
If you haven't found the superstar.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Gas second contract, still a part of your team, still
a starter to worry. That's what.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
That's what, because let's be honest, that's yeah, that's what
Garrett Bulls is.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Garrett Bulls at this stage of his career, slam ends
up being first round pick.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Didn't look like a three bust. Okay, bust, got a
problem labeling it that. But for the Denver Broncos, you
bust if he doesn't in your team.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
For second contract. Is that it is that that's.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
And you shouldn't want to use said player as as
a chip in a trade agreed if they're that value
the contract.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
By the way, he was like a four and a
half million dollar player.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
To me, a good example of a successful first round
draft pick for a NFL franchise that got traded before
its second contract. That's I mean, it's a pretty deep.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Cut right there.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Yeah, that's a lot of Do you think chat GPT
has an answer on that one?
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Okay, But but like here's let me give a different
way of viewing this. And I know sometimes like one
of the things we talk about the business and transaction
of sport far too often, and and it kind of
kills me a little bit sometimes. But like, if you
take a guy and you get four or in the
(37:56):
case of the fifty year option, five good years out
of the player, and he is on a rookie contract,
thus he is below market and you get a good
contribution out of him, and then he moves on, that's
not necessarily a bad thing. I know these guys weren't
first round picks, but I'll use the two examples of
Malik Jackson and Danny Trevathan two Broncos that you drafted
(38:17):
that were both excellent players and that were starters on
Super Bowl teams, and you had to move on because
you just can't pay everybody, right Like that, That's that's
a part of NFL reality too, Like a in a
perfect world, the Broncos would get to a place where,
like they're hitting on enough draft picks, the guys are
walking out the door and moving on because you just
can't sign everybody.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
Right. No, I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
But to me, as a capology sort of element to
this conversation, I agree.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
But see, to me, it's always about the specific. Here's
why I bring up the first round in particular. Okay,
I feel sometimes a guy gets labeled to bust, even
like Robert Airis would be it. Guy went on to
have a pretty good.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Double digit career. Yep, was he really a bust?
Speaker 1 (39:00):
No?
Speaker 4 (39:00):
Did he make? Was he the outside rush linebacker that
Josh McDaniels tried to convince us he was gonna be?
I was told by one guy have a quick twitch move,
you know, bone in his body by his old defensive coordinator,
you know, But again, he was a solid guy. He
played for the Giants in number of years. I look,
I don't know if it ended up being a bad
(39:21):
pick now, no offense. Yeah, that didn't feel like a
really great pick. But again that's where you know was brought.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Was Bradley Chubb a bust for the Denver Poscos?
Speaker 4 (39:29):
Unfortunately? Yes, yes, because you know what, and part of
it's what you took him. First off, you took him
at five. Secondly, you passed on all sorts of players
from Quintin Nelson right behind him to Josh Allen. Right,
guess pretty good it, Mr Jackson at the end of
the round. I mean, we could go on and on
and on.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
I'm not just trying to find exceptions to the rule.
But here, here's this. This guy's an interesting case study
to me. Bradley Robie, Okay, you used a first round
pick on him. You did not give him a second contract.
He was the starting nickel corner on a Super Bowl
winning team.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
In a vital piece of that.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Now, did Bradley Roby turn into a star NFL corner? Like,
there's no All pros, there's no Pro Bowls, there's there's
nothing like that. And he went on to have a
lengthy NFL career elsewhere, but again for what you needed
in that moment. Did he become a star, No, but
he was a He was a quality player, and he
filled a knee that you had on your football team
because again you had depth elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Were his last several years hampered by injury or no?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Roby, No, he was. He was in and out of
injury because because remember he was in Houston, and then
was he like Saint Philadelphia was a Saint. I believe
you're right about that.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Those are those are the four teams Broncos, Texans, deep
cuts on a player likes But yeah, first round draft
pick was a part of Like that's an interesting case study,
interesting player.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
As a coach, how often does this happen? What was
wild about Roby is he was actually very good as
the as the nickel guy whatever. But he could not
take second receiver. He could not be the starting he
couldn't be Riley Moss. Whenever he was asked to be
Riley Moss, it didn't go very well. But when he
was allowed to come in and be the nickel guy
and just kind of mix in those extra receiver packages,
(41:11):
he was a really good player.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
What is the minimum amount of years that a quarterback
has to be your starter to be considered a first
round hit.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
That's a good call.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
It's a second contract, you think, so it's more that
than probably.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
That second contract. But you're barely making the playoffs, so
you're just kind of in and out of there right away.
Like what's the success.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Rate the fifth year if you get if you're the
starter in the fifth year, you're you're you're.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
What if they don't set the market, wouldn't it be
the I mean, look, we all know, just because you
get to set the market as QB doesn't mean you're
the best QB at the league, in the league at
the time. It just means it's your turn for a
How many.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Examples are there of quarterbacks that are somewhere in that
gray area?
Speaker 4 (41:55):
How about Trevor Lawrence, he gotta set the market. I
still don't know what that guy is. And that's a
guy really high hope for it.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
I think he's supposed to be good. But all right,
what about what.
Speaker 4 (42:03):
About Justin Herbert, a guy that we all look, I.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Think he's a star by okay, yeah, but he's not
won a lot to be a star.
Speaker 4 (42:09):
How many playoff wins does he have zero?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
He didn't have any. It's been in the playoffs twice,
but he didn't have any wins.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
I mean, now, listen, he also is playing at one
of the worst times to be in the AFC. Poor
Josh Allen and the Lamar Jackson, two MVP winners are
trying to get over the hump that is Patrick Mahomes.
Then you got Joe Burrow hanging out there. Who got
to a super Bowl, but that's only been one time.
And then you got guys like Herbert and what funny enough,
the one time Lawrence won a game was over Herbert
(42:36):
in a massive comeback.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
He brought up the original question with reference to John A. Baron,
is drafting a first round player that is in a
even a one hundred percent starter. He hasn't played outside
corner but five snaps of training camp, and it's only
been in base defensive personnel. When you have who was
qu Campbell before he got he got banged up, He
(43:00):
wasn't out there today. Q was playing that true Sam linebacker,
that real four to three style. That's the only time
I've seen johnay Baron outside at corner.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Okay, so let's let's use this example right now, and
again this is only his rookie season. But how does
Johnnay Baron best help the Broncos right now? It's as
an inside corner on a team that has Patrick Sartan
and Riley Moss, and both of those guys are outstanding players.
You put John day Baron on the inside, you use
Ja Kwan McMillan on the inside.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
They did it today in dial package, both on the
field today. It was a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
They're gonna have four corners on the field, four very
good corners on the field. In dime situation, you can blitz,
you can blitz either one of them. You can do
a lot of things with that group. But that's that's
exactly what it is. Like, Okay, you're a first round pick,
but you're not starting on the outside right now. But
the team also doesn't need you to. There's also this argument,
and that's why I don't I don't think there's any
(43:50):
necessity to have a well isy an outside corner conversation
because everything is a three corner defense. Basically in today's
NF you sent plus you have to have that nickel
guy on the field all the time. Like Tod we've
been talking about how are they gonna use Marvin Mims,
And he's talking about going back and looking at slot
cut ups of things that Jerry Judy does, like who's
(44:11):
gonna who's gonna be the guy that covers a Puka
Nakua type of player, Like those kind of weapons that
all these offenses are trying to find right now, Like
you have to have three good starting corners if you're
gonna have a legitimate NFL defense today, and it just
so happens one of them has a different role. But
my response to it is who cares.
Speaker 4 (44:31):
No, I'm with you. And look, from what Jeff Lakewalt's
told us from the word go is they drafted and
to be the inside move around guy.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
They loved him because he could play all the positions
in the second that guy not just go take right
like everybody thought when he got drafted. Well, Riley Moss
is going, I don't think that's how they looked at it.
You gotta have an outstanding secondary.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
You shown me today that has two good corners, and
I will tell you, okay, who's your third? You just
you need more of those bodies. By the way, a
couple of other notes on this McMillan is still really
good guys. Chris Abrams Drains had a really good camp.
Speaker 4 (45:02):
I wouldn't get rid of that.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
He's probably your third corner right now, probably on the side.
YEA true. Like if you got into a pickle with
either Riley Moss or Pats or ten second out, Yeah,
I wouldn't borrow John A. Barron nor Jaquan McMillan from
Nickel and Dime, Pack and play and he's long you
knowed him, He's he's already has evidence of ball skills
(45:27):
in NFL games.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Got a second exception, good secondary, Jeff Lakewell, coming up
to twenty minutes after four o'clock, we'll talk about Bow's
interception filled day that Scanford is trying to It was.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
One interception that would have stood after the penalties on
the defense.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Gonfor Hey, it's got to be Scanford. It's all it
takes to lose a game.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I'm from the birthplace of SKA and I'm gonna let
it stand with Mike Scufford.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Here from Kingston, Jamaica. It's the Craig Lindall Show, Altitude
Sports Radio ninety two to five
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