New Consent Laws for BDSM-S05E06

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to mydungeon. Welcome to Culdure Script. I'm
me host Master Caulder, and ifyou knew the show, we use our
combined thirty five years of BDSM experiencein my twenty years work in the psychology

(00:25):
field to dispel myths, get ridof stereotypes, and at your questions about
b DSM. You can text inyour questions your comment state sixty five two
six s eight four zeros zero fivefour visit of the script at Caulder and
script dot com. In this episode, Mayfair and I are talking about the
new consent laws for BDSM. Everythinghas just changed and is going to change

(00:48):
a lot more thankfully. Last timeSusan Wright was on the show, we
talked about the National Coalition of SexualFreedom and what they were getting into as
far as working with the law causeand explicit prior permission, which replaces parts
of SSC safe Saying consensual and rackrisk aware consensual kink. Explicit prior permission

(01:14):
is going to end up being alegal terminology where contracts are no longer evidence
to put you in jail. Theywill be evidence to help protect you from
that. If there becomes some problems. So hey, Mayfair, Hello Cauldron.

(01:38):
How's it going pretty good? Kindof a gloomy day. Good for
naps? Yeah yeah, well overcast, kind of nice. I'm a little
sleepy, which is why I'm havinga speech impediment issue today. Hello to
the chat room, Davis Speed d'artagna, hadn't seen you in a while.
Welcome back, Avery, Hello,Hello the chat room. As I always

(02:00):
say, the third co host ofthe show. A lot of the information,
a lot of the topic comes fromthe chat room, so thank you
so much. Thanks to everybody forjoining in. This is an article,
and I know how much y'all hatemy articles, but this one is important
and this comes from Psychology Today.Yes, I am a subscriber of Psychology

(02:23):
Today. The name of this articleand there is a link. Hopefully I
won't get another YouTube strike for havingthis link in there since it's for Psychology
Today. But the only time willtell the name of this is Criminal Charges
and Consensual Kink. New guidelines mayhelp consenting adults avoid being charged. This

(02:46):
was posted on June the second,twenty twenty three. Was written by David
J. Lee Lay Sorry l E. Y PhD, and he is a
clinical psychologist and the author of InsatiableWives, Women who Stray and the Men
who Love Them. It's an interestingbook. Check it out again. The

(03:13):
link is down below in the descriptionif you want to follow along. This
is not a long article, butthere are a lot of really important points
in here that we are going todive into. Let's hit those rules to
love by and then jump into thistopic. Rules love by brought you by

(03:35):
Inclusion Woodworks dot com and that's myKinky woodworking company. Check it out Rules
love By, Rule number one safesaying, consentual and informed. Rule number
two kinky. That's K and Kand comes from the Kinky app, available
on all platforms. Not a sponsor, but it does stand forward knowledge,
no intolerance, Kindness and integrity.And rule number three the quote from Paul
Young submission is not about authority andit's not about obedience. It is all

(03:59):
about relationships of love and respect.Again. That is mister Paul Young.
So new Consent Laws for BDSM Seasonfive, episode six, four June the
fourth, twenty twenty three. Ohbad cat, Hello hellou so again.

(04:24):
This is by doctor David J.Ley, PhD. There is increasing evidence
that human sexuality involves far more diverseflavors and interests than historically acknowledged. When
Vaughn kaft Ebbing first began labeling variousparaphilic sexual interests, they were believed to

(04:50):
be generally rare, but research byJoel and Carpentier reports that nearly fifty percent
of a non clinical random sample disclosedbeing interested in at least one sexual behavior
historically deemed unusual or anomalous. Sobasically half of the population nearly half of

(05:19):
the population, and a non clinicalrandom sample basically hitting the streets and saying,
hey, are you into any ofthese and at least half the people
check something on there that was previouslyconsidered diagnosable mental illness or paraphilic sexual interests.

(05:47):
That's what that is. If you'renot familiar with what paraphilic sexual interests
are engaging in. BDSM, anumbrella acronym describing a variety of behaviors such
as bondage, discipline, sado masochism, dominance, and submission, was historically
deemed not just unusual but unhealthy sadismand masochism, where paraphilias included in the

(06:14):
DSM. The Diagnostic Statistical Manual forDiagnosing Mental illness though, as Joel and
Carpentier found, around twenty five percentof people have fantasies of masochism, while
seven percent of sadism. Another nationallyanother nationally representative study found that twenty percent

(06:39):
of people in the US have engagedin bondage and thirty percent enjoy spanking during
sex. So, yeah, I'veread it hard to believe that there's such
a small number of dam type.Are you referring to the where the seven

(07:00):
percent sadism? Like sadism is atype of domination. It's not in company,
it's not encompassing all dominance. No, but it still seems like a

(07:24):
really really small number. Yeah,And I'm sorry for man's playing that.
I know you know that. It'sjust I mean, we've been to multiple
venues, like we went to domCon, and to say that only seven

(07:45):
percent of people enjoyed being a paininflictor seems kind of low. Yeah.
And you've also got to throw inthe the shame quotient there, Yeah,
like the fifty percent of the participantsof that non clinical trial, which in

(08:05):
the actual article there is links toall of these studies and they are peer
reviewed studies, but where they're interestedin at least one sexual behavior that was
historically deemed unusual or anomalous. There'sthere's that shame factor where even though you

(08:33):
know it's not recorded who they mayhave been or whatever, they just don't
want to admit it or you knowyet the religious guilt, all right,
it is body shaming. So yeah, I could see, And that's a
good point out to Mayfair because Iagree with you that seven percent is afolo.

(09:01):
Anyway, we can continue. Ijust I had to start it out
there, so like that seems prettypretty pretty low. Yeah. Yeah,
there's a lot of people who enjoyspanking other people. M but and they
also may be going by the thetrue U the psychological definition of sadism,

(09:26):
which is true sexual arousal. Youknow, I know a lot of people
that enjoy being tops in impact playor something like that, but they just
it's an enjoyment or it's a service, but it's not like a true sexual

(09:48):
satisfaction. Criminal Minds, I knowa series that you've you've watched, I've
watched, they always say a sexualsadist. And that's kind of a redundant
term from a textbook standpoint, becausesadism true sadism by definition is sexual,

(10:16):
so they may be very strict withtheir definition of that. Okay, yeah,
but I agree with you seven percent. I don't of course with men.
You know, there's such shame aroundhitting a woman, even if she

(10:43):
wants it, and even if it'sspanking, admitting to it, even at
the stage in the in the game. For me, there's shame around it.
So yeah, I think there's achat room. What do you think.
Do you think it's shame based orOh I'm not surprised on the number

(11:09):
of people admitting to being a sadist. It's very interesting. Hello, hello,
subbucks thirteen juny just call me Ash, What what all right? So?
All right? Increasingly diverse sexual interestssuch as BDSM have gained some social
acceptance and recognition that these behaviors arenot inherently unhealthy, with clinical guidelines for

(11:37):
kink promulgated in twenty nineteen. I'mhaving a terrible time with big words.
However, clinical acceptance of such diversityis one thing. Acceptance in the halls
of justice is another. And forthose of you who have listened to the
last time that Susan Wright was on, we talked about it can often take

(12:01):
ten years or more for the justicesystem to catch up to society and what
has been found in either by scientistsor psychologists or doctors. You know,

(12:22):
there's there's at least a ten yeargap there. And so for this to
be adopted so early in it becausethey've only been working on this for you
know, a few years, threeto five years in this particular wording in
all of this, and for itto already be shaping some laws, this

(12:46):
is huge. This is faster thanwas ever expected, regardless of the political
climate. Because that was something thatthat I asked Susan right about. And
yeah, so I'm I'm super happyto be doing this episode because this is

(13:11):
so big. All right, criminalconflict within BDSM or was there anything else
that you want to touch on inthat section? First? Well, what
I was looking at because I know, we hate the book in the movie,
but Fifty Shades of Gray really broughtKink to mainstream media. It did,

(13:33):
and that was twenty twenty and elevenwhen the first book came out,
So we're looking at thirteen or twelveyears yeah, from it be coming into
mainstream. So kind of maybe that'swhere we got boost from. I don't

(13:56):
know where this kid get done somuch quicker. Yeah, maybe, and
don't quote me on that. Iwould have to go back and listen to
the interview with Susan to see whenthey started working on it, but I'm
thinking it was somewhere between three andfive years ago. I know that they

(14:16):
had to get the changes made inthe DSM five first, which was what
removed b DSM as a paraphilia unlessit interferes with your activities of daily living.
So what that means is it can'tbe diagnosed as a mental illness unless

(14:39):
it interferes with your activities of dailyliving. So just call me Ash says.
I think it's shame based. Ialways have a lot of shame if
it's not a play partner that Iknow incredibly well. Yep subacts thirteen says.
I think for someone who isn't outand part of the community, it

(15:00):
definitely can be stressful or shameful.And then continue to say it's still so
stigmatized that people who don't know thereare so many others who who share the
same inclinations have trouble reconciling their feelings. Yeah, and I think that's one
of the most important parts of thecommunity is to it helps us. It

(15:24):
certainly doesn't fix it, but ithelps people to feel normal. And as
much as you know that word getsshipped on, people inherently want to feel
normal or typical, which is anicer word, but it really means the

(15:50):
same thing. All right, goodcall out there, mayfair, you're you
are on point. Criminal conflict withBDSM. There have been numerous past cases
in which people were prosecuted for criminalor sexual assault for behaviors which were reported
to have been consensual. The mostfamous of these was Operation Spanner in the

(16:15):
United Kingdom look that one up.That's interesting, in which gay men who
had engaged in extreme BDSM behaviors whilebeing filmed were prosecuted and convicted, with
court's ruling that the men's consent wasimmaterial, meaning it just didn't matter that

(16:37):
the men consented, and that consentdid not allow such bodily harm in a
civilized society. Unfortunately, no courtdecisions in the United States have accepted consent
as a defense to prosecution for assaultor abuse when involving BDSM. Because the

(16:59):
criminal system is generally unfriendly to bDSM, many potential criminal acts with BDSM
go unreported due to fear of stigmaor embarrassment. I've consulted and testified in
numerous cases in which charges were filedin courts. Judges and juries had to

(17:23):
try to wade through the complex detailsand parse out what was or wasn't consensual.
In such cases, my role asan expert is usually to help juries
make decisions based on a solid,grounded understanding of sexual diversity, rather than
assuming these behaviors are inherently indicative ofdisturbed persons in making legal decisions from that

(17:52):
flawed perspective. Unfortunately, until now, neither people involved in BDSM nor the
legal system had a solid, agreedupon framework of what kinds of things could
and should be done in BDSM.To ensure the greatest protection from criminal charges,

(18:15):
the kink and BDSM communities have hadguidelines such as risk Aware Consensual Kink
also known as RACK and SSC,Safe, Sane, and Consensual, which
the community used and taught in orderto distinguish unacceptable, harmful, and dangerous
behaviors. These guidelines offer protection tothe community by excluding non consensual behaviors,

(18:41):
but may offer little legal protection shouldsuch risk awar consensual behaviors result in criminal
charges. My psychology Today, colleague, eli Scheff published a post describing her
own experience in such cases, anotherwonderful article that you should read. She

(19:06):
uses lessons learned from the cases torecommend that people involved in kink could best
avoid criminal charges by being sober duringactivities, seeking training and education in safe
kink, clarifying consent with explicit verbaland or written discussions, and using extreme

(19:30):
caution with extreme activities such as eroticasphyxiation or more serious physical harmful behaviors such
as piercings or cuttings. On that, I've got to point out the sober

(19:51):
part. I know a lot ofpeople who are marijuana advocates. I'm a
marijuana advocate. It's illegal in mystate. Still, I don't smoke,
I don't do any gummies or anyof that because it is illegal. If

(20:11):
it wasn't, that would be adifferent conversation. However, I catch a
lot of shit because I talk about, you know, don't play well high,
don't play while drinking one to onedrink. It can change things if
something goes wrong because you've had atoke, a gummy, a drink,

(20:40):
whatever the case, it can beargued that consent was impossible and that that
that youthful thing of all. Nothing'sever gonna go wrong. Ship goes wrong
all the time. It's going togo it's not a matter of if it's

(21:07):
when. It's like anybody who whorides motorcycles. Yeah, somebody who rides
if they've dropped their bike, andit's not a matter of if they have,
it's a matter of when. It'sjust going to happen at some point.

(21:27):
And yes, there's different degrees ofthings going wrong. But yeah,
so go ahead. It doesn't countthat I've flipped my riding one more.
It's not quite laying down on abike. But I did that when I

(21:49):
was a kid. Yeah, Ithink that last weekend. Yeah, it's
yeah, it's not nearly as balancedas the previous one had. And we
we we tippled, we tipped toppeda couple of times. I was I
was going up a hill and startedsliding back on some wet grass and then

(22:11):
I let off the clutch break andit drove the front wheels underneath the top
wheels, or that it drove theback wheels underneath the front wheels. Yeah.
So I was just trying to driveup the hill and it just said
noop, noop, shit happens.I've mowed, I've used brotting on more

(22:34):
for a few years now and shouldhappen. M h all right, so
let's see where did I get tohere? We're about to go into the

(22:56):
EPP. Yeah, EPP, soExplicit Prior Permission, a collaborative project between
the American Law Institute and the NationalCoalition for Sexual Freedom has now gone a
step further and produced not only guidelinesto influence safe consensual b ds and behaviors,

(23:22):
but language that is being adopted intomodel penal codes or model penal and
criminal codes. So that's where thelaw is matching up with society, psychology
and scientists. Is that adoption intothe model penal codes. And if you're

(23:44):
not familiar with what those are,again, you can go back and listen
to the last time Susan Right wason there. But basically, there are
these models that are put out thatthe states and counties whatever, they can

(24:07):
take it or leave it, orthey can take bits and pieces as they're
developing their own laws or changing theirown laws. So it's not something that
they have to do, something thatthey have to use. That's why the
laws can vary greatly from state tostate, but most states will take the

(24:33):
majority of these model penal and criminalcodes. It takes time for them to
be adopted, but it eventually getsthere again most states, not all,
but anyway. So this language thatis being adopted into model penal and criminal

(24:55):
codes to prevent prosecution, to preventprosecution of consensual behaviors which meet these guidelines.
With more than twenty US states havingno legal definition of consent, is
that that's just freaking absurd. Theyhave no legal definition of consent in their

(25:18):
sexual assault laws. These new guidelines, called explicit prior permission or EPP,
now begin to guide both bds andpractitioners and criminal justice systems in the same
direction. Now, even if yourstate doesn't adopt these guidelines, because it

(25:40):
is the model penal code, theycan be presented in trials and it can
help a case. So if somethingever comes up, even if it's not
yet adopted in your state, makesure that your attorney knows about these things.

(26:00):
So what is explicit prior consent orpermission? Rather explicit prior permission?
First, you agree to specific actsand the intensity you are of sound mind
there again, so high can't behigh, can't be drunk. Under the

(26:26):
influence of anything space do space.Yeah, you can't be in an altered
state. It also gets into differentmental illnesses, so it means that certain
certain untreated or undiagnosed time mental illnesseswould mean that you're not of sound mind,

(27:00):
or if someone has conservatorship over you. There's a lot of things that
can go into that, all right, So number three, you can't seriously
injure someone. Number four, youagree what role play resistance is okay?
To ignore? Number five. Youhave to have a way to stop at

(27:29):
any time. So to run overthose again without interruption explicit prior permission requires
five steps. You agree to specificacts and the intensity. Number two you
are of sound mind. Number threeyou can't seriously injure someone. Number four

(27:51):
you agree what role play resistance isokay? To ignore? Number five.
You have to have a way tostop at any time. My fair anything.
I'm just betting a friend of oursprobably wishes this happened year or so
ago, because that whole you can'tread probably would have meant something. Then.

(28:18):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Iwas thinking about that when I read
this actually, and that's been liketwo or three years ago. Now,
I believe hadn't it. I don'tknow time is Time is a blur right
now? Since COVID hit, Ihave no idea. Yeah, God,

(28:40):
that may been like twenty nineteen,it was pre COVID. Yeah. Wow.
See time is not a real thinganymore. Would just happened a minute
ago. We're older than we've everbeen before in our lives. That's all
say, All right, So whatdoes all this mean? Informed consent can

(29:06):
only be given by people who areof age to consent and who are not
impaired in a way that inhibits informedunderstanding. Consent should be given in writing
or verbally, and nonverbal consent isunlikely to meet the expectation of EPP.

(29:27):
Nonverbal consent is unlikely to meet theexpectation of EPP. That means that you've
got to use words, You've gotto talk about it there. You cannot
assume that you have consent ahead.Nod yes will not do. Even if
prior consent has been given in thepast. Current affirmative consent is required to

(29:53):
meet protection under EPP. So itdoesn't matter if if you've been playing with
somebody for twenty years and you knoweach other inside now. In order to
use EPP as a defense too,some kind of criminal charges. You had

(30:19):
to talk about it at that time, Like we're going to do knife play
and you know how much cutting isokay? If if Mayfair ends up with
stitches, is that okay this time? Yes, well it has been for

(30:41):
twenty years. But technically if wedon't talk about it that time and Mayfair
ended up going to the hospital andgetting six seven stitches or even one stitch,
and they say, how did thishappen? Oh, here we were
participating in a BDSM scene and hesliced me open and they call the cops.

(31:07):
Technically because we didn't talk about itbefore we'd done it. Then,
uh yeah, so, and thatwould also be determined by a definition of
serious injury. You can't seriously injuresomeone. So you know that seems pretty
vague. Yeah, it does,it does. It's a work in progress,

(31:32):
I'll admit, because like I remember, way back at the local house
that used to holdst weekend party everyweekend, there was a girl who her
knees fell out from under her becauseshe kind of but her hands were shackled

(31:53):
above her head, and she lostfeeling in her hand for what two or
three months? Yeah, I mean, yeah, once you pass out?
Yeah, does that count a seriousinjury? Like that? That's really vague,
is what counts? What constitutes seriousinjury? I say, I'm of

(32:14):
the mind that that does not constitutea serious injury. I mean, it's
not permanent, but where others wouldbe of the mind that that constitutes serious
injury. So for myself, ifI couldn't type that would that would cause
a serious impact in my life.So like it. It's it's a very
vague statement, which yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree. And

(32:38):
you know, these things need definition, and maybe there is a legal definition
of what serious injury is and Idon't I don't know it. I probably
should have thought about that and lookedit up beforehand. Uh, go ahead,

(33:00):
So just call me Ash. Shesays, this scares the hell out
of me, seeing as how Ilove blood play and a slip is always
possible. Yeah, again, Idon't know what constitute serious injury, and

(33:22):
Ash, I will, I'll dosome research on that to see may contact
Sue's right and attorney lady still downin Atlanta and see if they can get
some feedback on that, and I'llI'll message it to you and also do
a blog post on the website aboutit. So what I find out I

(33:45):
googled it and I don't know whatwhere this is listed from. But the
main one that pops up is thelaw defines a serious injury as an injury
that results in any of the followingdeath, significant disfigurement, dismemberment, or
a fracture. Now ru does again? Death? Uh huh, significant disfigurement,

(34:10):
dismemberment, tramputation, or fracture,death, dismemberments. What was the
figurement? So right? Serious disfigurementis uh, we'd need a sub we'd

(34:30):
need a sub definition on that aswell. Yeah, that could mean a
scar, because the scar on myneck from surgery would have been a serious
disfigurement. It's front, it's forwardfacing and seen under normal conditions. You
know, it's weird going into storeswith this thing because I get a lot

(34:53):
of looks. Of course, it'sit's not healed all away, and it's
still all read as you can seein the video. But I get a
lot of I get a lot ofstairs from it. Like people think that
or something is a serious outward changethat substantially distracts from the appearance and functional
ability of the person injured. Functionalability, okay in appearance. So basically

(35:25):
just call me ash. Uh.What I'm gathering from that you're very intail
of very very intelligent person. Uh. As long as we're not scarring the
face or or things of that nature, we're good. We're good. Maybe

(35:49):
or if you have written consent,I think that you know, if someone
tries to claim they're a model orsomething and you have a scar on their
leg, that could cause that couldbe consider so you'd have to there's still
a lot of gray. Yeah,there's still a lot of gray in that
about it, but it is stilla step forward. I'm not like dissing

(36:10):
this information or like, you know, Debbie Downer on this because it's still
a move forward. Yeah, yeah, absolutely absolutely. And may Fair,
if you could send me that link. I know it's probably a type link
on Google. But all right,so let's get into something that is near

(36:31):
and dear to our heart, Mayfair, because this last one, you have
a way. You have to havea way to stop at any time.
Now, there's a great post.They're a great meme that says if if
you're too good to play without safewords, then you're too good to play

(36:55):
with me, or something. Ican't remember how it goes. Uh,
But let's get into informed consent andC and C. So informed consent can
only be given by people I know. EPP does not offer protection for an

(37:15):
individual who is asleep or unconscious.This is important as a Canadian case found
that even though prior consent had beengiven when a woman was unconscious due to
erotic exphyiciation with her partner, herpartners continued sexual activity with her was criminal.

(37:42):
So that means that waking somebody uphaving sex with them is criminal.
Even if you said you want it, h like I feel like I would
be mad if you like knocked meout from strangulation, even if I wanted
like like, well, fucker,wait for me to wake up. I

(38:05):
want to enjoy this ship too.It may not be a criminal charge,
but I might be pre mad,like why are you fucking me when I'm
asleep, like knocked out? Waitfor me to at least be almost conscious
and then but thought, man,that's just rude. That's just rude.
You know some people like to beused that way, just knowing that they

(38:28):
were knocked out and was a dumpsterfor somebody. I'd like having sex too
much to like sleep through it,don't. That's rude, so to get
into SANC. The requirement for thereto be a way to stop the behavior
at anytime reflects the ninth principle ofthe Nuremberg Code on Research, which states

(38:54):
that participants must be able to discontinueparticipation at any time. It also conflicts
with the practice of consensual non consent. I disagree with that which is sometimes
practiced in a manner in which peoplemay negotiate in advance the framework of a
BDSM activity but choose to not havethe ability to end a scene. Under

(39:19):
the EPP model, CNC activities wouldnot be protected if there was no way
for the participant to end the scenein the midst of the activities, regardless
of prior consent. I've previously writtenabout CNC and how it is increasingly presenting
in criminal cases where prior consent isnot a defense. So the reason I

(39:45):
disagree with under the EPP model,CNC activities would not be protected is because
I don't believe that C and Cshould be done and without the use of
safe words or signals, because youcan you can still fight, you can

(40:09):
still say no and all of thatand be into the role play and highly
enjoy it without not you know,with with without banning a safe word.
There there's nothing sane, nothing healthyabout not having a safe word, because

(40:39):
again, shit happens, and ifif if that, if you're playing with
somebody who says, well, there'snot going to be any safe words this
time, run away. Yeah,don't don't do that, please people,

(41:00):
gone away. Seriously, I thinkyou and someone were long negotiating a kidnapped
hostage scene for where they were goingto be held for three to four days.
Yea, red was not going tobe the safe word, but you

(41:23):
had an extra special like oh shitsafe word that kind of went above that.
Yeah. So like even then,even when it was supposed to mimic
being kidnapped and held hostage and tortured, you still had a bonus safe word,

(41:45):
like red was going to be ableto be said, but it wasn't
going to stop anything. That waspart of the contract that you guys were
talking through. Yeah, you cantry to get out, but like if
you really get too far and youreally are too far gone, there is
a word you can say. Buth so, yeah, I love the

(42:06):
that meme. If she's screaming Strawberrywatermelon, rudabaga, banana. She's probably
forgotten to say for it, butyeah, I mean you can do these
these scenes and still and again,like you said, I mean that's a

(42:29):
long negotiation that that was before itwas determined that she wasn't going to do
it. I think we've been talkingabout it for six months to a year.
Oh yeah, I was thinking morelike two years. It could Yeah,
it very well could have been twoyears there again going back to what
we said before time. But yeah, it's it's just too dangerous. It's

(42:58):
not worth it. The jews isnot worth the squeeze when it comes to
that. Yeah, there's always gotto be a a time out word or
a stop word, yeah, orphrase or action or something. Now it
has to be a word, becauseit says it has to be a verbal

(43:21):
Well, it says has to beverbal consent. Maybe they're if you ring
like you can ring the bell orwhatever. No, just you have Yeah,
you have to have a way tostop at any time, like you
know, Uh, one particular personthat that's always gagged that we know because
she's very verbal and loud. Shealways holds her panties in her hand or

(43:49):
socks. Yeah, and if shedrops them, then that means that that's
her version of red or you know, so I think you guys had altered
it because you had she had twodifferent color socks, and if she dropped
this color, it was yellow andthis coat was a red. Oh.
I thought, well, what wasa sock and what was the panties?
Oh? I didn't realize it waspanties. Yeah, yeah, I forgot

(44:15):
about that. That's been so longago. I forgot about that until you
said it, because that's been sixyears ago. Good lord. Memory also
a thing, So there's always waysto work in a stop. If someone
says there's no way for it towork, then they're they're just an abusive

(44:35):
dick. Yeah, caldrons, cryptdot com, slash hand signals or no
silent communication. You know, givena four which is like a yellow,
given a five which is full stop, that's a red, and paying attention

(44:57):
to those there's and keys in thehands or a bell so it makes a
noise if you drop it. Somethinglike that. I'm a big fan of
that. I know a lot ofI've heard a lot of tops talking about
they want to add extra words,keep it simple. Yeah, like I
think you talked about that I don'tthink I was part of the show then,

(45:17):
But like, you gotta keep itsimple. You can't have like blood,
orange, red or like because,like I've said it before, I
had a guy who wanted to sayfor it to be Eiffel Tower because in
his mind, French always surrender,surrender, and I'm like, bro,

(45:39):
that ain't gona work. No,You're you're doing too much. Simplicity is
best in this. Yeah, yeah, and that's why there's a standard.
I mean, the whole red lightsystem green, yellow, red, And
I know Master Arcane in his bookThe Art of Romantic Submission, it talks

(46:08):
about five or more different colors,and I definitely wouldn't go more than five.
If you're going to do that,that's I was like, I'm never
going to remember this, yeah,like purple or blue or orange or yeah,
you know, but if you can, that's great, But like,

(46:30):
don't make it complicated, folks.Yeah, of course, the more you
practice it these year, it's goingto get but there may be some bumps
in the road along the way whileyou practice these more difficult things. That's
why yellow or a four an,a mayfair or whoever I'm playing with.
It uses the hand signals is that'sthat's why you check in. You know

(46:55):
what is it? Is it thetoy or which I can use? We
tell with people I'm playing with,like nah, they're they're this toy is
just not for them right now,or the intensity or whatever. But you
still always ask, like you mayknow what your answer is going to be,
but you always ask, thank you, like you don't just assume,

(47:19):
because you know, assumptions are likeassholes. Everybody has one. To put
it simple, as fetish Artist says, safe word isn't a game. Hello,
fetish artist, miss your face hatedthat I missed dom Con. I
give you a big old virtual hug. Come here, all right. So

(47:42):
the explicit prior permission model is anextraordinary and progressive accomplishment by the NCSF and
the American law the American Law Institute. Yes, I said American law,
and then I got hung up onthe word law. But the American Law

(48:06):
Institute offering greater legal protection to sexualdiversity and hopefully increasing the legal systems understanding
of kink and decreasing stigma. Individualsinvolved in kink and BDSM should absolutely educate
themselves on EPP and identify any oftheir own practices which may not meet these

(48:30):
standards. They should also advocate forstate and legal bodies to adopt EPP language
into criminal code to best protect themselvesand others from prosecution and consensual behavior.
RTE your representatives send them an email. Somebody in their office will get it

(48:52):
and send you a nice little responseback thank you for your submission. If
they get enough of them, thenyour actual representative will take a look at
it. So everybody needs to becontacting the representative. If you're out in
any way, posting on your socialabout this is a great way to get

(49:19):
other people to do it. Youknow, take the steps to do this
and make this end of law inyour state. It could very well keep
your ass out of jail one day, or someone that you love and out
of jail or prison. So allright, we have hit these all along

(49:45):
the way. I knew this wasgoing to be a quick episode. Chat
room, if you have any questions, please feel free. I mean,
it wasn't really that short. We'realmost at our hour mark. Technically,
the show was an hour to beginwith, and then we did a half
hour post show. And you stillhave to thank all the folks. Yes

(50:08):
I do, I sure do.So what Mayfair is talking about is we
are a value for value podcast,which means that we don't take any corporate
sponsors. Sorry I was scrolling downto find my list here, but we

(50:29):
don't take any corporate sponsors. Whathappens is we put out episodes, we
do this live show. People findvalue in it, and then they want
to return the value through time,talent, or treasure. These are all
the people who donate their treasure tous, and we are so thankful.

(50:51):
If you'd like to do that,you can become a member of Patreon by
Cauldron's Script by going to cauldron scriptdot com, slash Patreon, cauldron's script
dot com, slash PayPal if youwant to make a one time donation,
Those links, of course are downbelow in the description, and we'll be
in the show notes for the audioonly version of the podcast. There's also
a way to send a check ora gift, as we have occasionally received,

(51:17):
but that address is down there aswell. So who are these people
that donate their treasure? Master ProducerBuffalo Max ninety two executive producers at twenty
five dollars a month, Not theDaddy, Shadowy Fox Junicorn's Angel, Johnny
Farrell, Ray Web and Harrow Web, Maxie Darling ten and Sarge, Cairo

(51:40):
and Exploring Mermaid Senior producers at tendollars a month. Of Trouble one thirteen,
Alexandria, Babylove and t Rex Ties, Daddy, Steve kJ Atsila,
Ben Trinity, Faye, Emr KenHawk and CLK one two four producers at
five dollars a month. Kane SinThat Place in Oklahoma City, Thank You

(52:01):
Matter, Heyda MBR Poodle, BadDog Bad and Subeck's thirteen Lily Kat,
Nip me Ow, Wild Tyme andDeacon Sewn Cherry Queery Rabbit, Archangel,
John Shaw, Au Segment Shadow,Grizzled Yetty and Josa, Fetish Artist,

(52:22):
Sir Be Nice Kitten three ninety nine, Nion, Dan and Don from Erotic
Awakening podcast Amazing. I think they'rethe original kink podcasters. I could be
wrong about that, but I thinkthey were the first to do a BDSM
based podcast. Black Angel, Sirr j Resefi, nix O nine,

(52:43):
Officer, Davis Finn Arden, Solace, Peppa, Kinky Ja, Daddy's Princess,
Kayla and Valfreya junior producers at adollar a month k to s oh
MORGANA thirteen, Civil disobedience rope Aficionado, Gator and Gizmo, Lexa, Ashley,
Meg, Dark, Diamante and Astridin Chains. There's also a list

(53:06):
of vendors that we know, like, trust and use. Again, we
do not take corporate sponsors. Theseare vendors that we know them, we
like them, and we actually usethem. So check that list out.
There are some cupon codes down therealso for one of them. So and
then my contact information is also downbelow in the description or in the show

(53:28):
notes for the audio only version ofthe podcast. All right, well we've
given that information out to you andthink that these beautiful, beautiful people.
Any questions come in? I don'tsee any. No, it doesn't look
like it. All right. Well, one quick announcement. I know a
bunch of people have already jumped offby now, but the event on July

(53:54):
eights, in just over a monthhere in Knoxville, Tennessee. That is
a private event for people who arepatrons. So that has closed officially.
Now. You cannot get in ifyou're not already in, if you are

(54:16):
a local. I know there's Junicorn'sAngels has communicated to me that some locals
are asking about coming to the eventagain, that you feel free to contact
me on fet life or by textmessage if you've got my personal phone number,

(54:39):
and we can discuss that. Butfor the safety of the reason that
it's private is for the safety ofthese new people who haven't been out to
events, who who haven't felt thesafety of community to yet. And that's

(55:00):
why they're choosing to come to thisevent is because it is private. For
a lot of people. That's avery important thing. I know, I
remember being brand new and that beingprivacy being a big thing. So bad
Cat says Subby switched three years inb DSM, went to consent classes.

(55:22):
My few toppings were very negotiated,liked right interview Epp m Elizabeth prior permission,
but concerned that TOPS not so connectedto formal b DSM acting in good

(55:45):
faith yeah, may not be okayin the new law. Sorry, he
added, Oh, okay, maynot be okay under the new law.
TOPS not so connected to formal BIERS. I'm acting good faith may not be

(56:07):
okay under the new law. Yeah, And I think that's one reason why
it's so important to at least getsome education through the community or you know,
there's a lot of people that listento this that don't go out to
the community. Maybe it's just acouple and they don't want to be out

(56:36):
in the community, but they dolisten and they do get education. Yes,
I think that in person education isa lot better. But some can
be no education at all. Iknow there's there's a thing about uh you
know, I have just enough fromon something to be dangerous. That's a

(57:02):
that's a thing. It happens alot. But yeah, so I can
see where you're coming from on that, and I can I can share from
certain aspects. I can certainly sharethose concerns absolutely, all right, may
fair anything else? No, allright, Well that's going to do it

(57:23):
for today. Uh, we're rightat the hour marks. That's awesome.
Thank you all so very much forjoining in, and we will see you
in a couple of weeks. Ibelieve that will be June the eighth,
tenth, Yes, okay, Junethe eighteenth, and yeah, month away

(57:45):
from the event. Can't wait tomeet people in person and see some others
that I've met before. This beenmaster cauldron and fair for couldron script dot
com unearth the truth

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