August 17, 2021 • 50 mins
La constitución del 91 fue un pacto de paz. Al menos, el resultado de cuatro procesos de paz distintos, que desmovilizaron grupos armados para unirlos al debate político. La defensa de la paz, en gran medida, es una defensa del relato que queremos contar y dejar contar sobre lo que es y ha sido Colombia.
¿Cómo entendía la presencia estatal la Constitución de 1991, y cómo parece entenderla el Estado colombiano actualmente? En este capítulo les contamos.
¿Cómo entendía la presencia estatal la Constitución de 1991, y cómo parece entenderla el Estado colombiano actualmente? En este capítulo les contamos.
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B the presentation of the Roma people, the new the frozen promise, because
a country quite turbulent with the wholeissue of drug trafficking, narco terrorism,
and we had this explosion of severalguerrilla groups that were shouting, with bombs,
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with tops, guerrillas and through violentways of acting. They were basically
asking for political space. And althoughmany say that no peace was made with
the guerrilla groups to demobilize them andbring them to the constituent in some way,
it did end up being. Formany who understand, the Constituent Assembly
of a thousand nine hundred and ninety- one ended the tip of a great
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peace covenant. From the context pointof view, it is very clear.
For example, the decision of theSupreme Court of Justice is to the Constitutional
Court when it says what justifies thewhole constituent process, which was not enshrined
in the Constitution. The Constitutions aretreated as a passage to a famous phrase
by Norberto Obvio, which was likethe key to understanding the two judgments of
the Court that, on the onehand, paved the way for the decree
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of the President of Barco to votethe ballot on 27 May, first in
the electoral card and then for PresidentGaviria, to allow the election of the
constituents on 9 December. And thatis key because, after all, because
it is first about the recognition offundamental political facts and that the motivation of
the process was peace for the show, because half a deciue of that house
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benched so large, the country knewthat this was going in that direction.
But I think the FARK lost thatgreat opportunity and lost it. Let'
s say that because of a personalzeal that they saw that it was like
the constituent of the 19th eMe andthe others in guerrilla movements that were entering
civilian life and they lost that greatopportunity because we would have saved ourselves how
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many dead and would have achieved,I think, how a transformation agenda was
achieved and could have entered civilian life. I think President Gaviria has said that
he did not know, for example, Casaverde' s attack was recently said
on 9 December, a thing thatis a little hard to believe, but
he says so not long before.They had that planned and it turns out
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they made the determination to do it. Great coincidence the day the constituents were
allying themselves. Then there were manydialogues that were attempted, but they definitely
realized that already with the 19 m, having nineteen constituent positions, they were
going to play a very marginal role. I think it was one thing.
In addition, I think of politicalmyopia, because they have not been able
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to gain a great space, regardlessof the space that the constituent medicine already
had and we would have saved ourselves, because everything that happened afterwards the ship
had made peace with the 19th LMwith Carlos Pizarro, before the question of
the ninety- one in March.Then, around the question of the 1990s
there are a lot of myths andalso some realities. One of those myths
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is that it was made to makepeace with the 19th EM? That'
s not true. Peace with the19th EM had been made in the 1990s
with two state decrees of siege byPresident Virgilio Barco. It did exist like
hopelessness. People sought as exits why, because they were burdened by not only
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the put murders, but particularly bythe bombs of Pablo Escobar. At that
time, narcoterrorism was more important thanthe creation of the social state, the
reorganization of the social state under therule of law, were very important steps
on the path to peace. Withouta doubt, so that peace was not
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achieved sadly, but it was implementedand foundations were laid that should serve to
build peace in the country. Ido not think that at the moment the
truth, for example, the mouthpiecesof the up of people like the two
constituents that had the UP accused everythingto the constituent and put everything into the
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peace process, regardless of what washappening. Navarro has a great testimony,
for example, on the day ofthe murder of Carlos Pizarro, which is
the same as the whole m ofnineteen told him. You guys get out
of this. This is over orthey' re not killing each other and
he said no. I have torespect my word and he went ahead and
achieved what he accomplished. Then.I put those two models to show that
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there were people who did bet everything, regardless of whether there was that massacre
and that genocide, which is oneof the worst stories in the recent narrative,
because of what has been happening inthis country, but she was bet
on peace, they bet on theconstituent. I believe Navarro is a model
of a successful peace process and fundamentalchanges in the structure of the State.
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A man who also finishes the constituentand passes to be the Minister of Health
of the Government of César Gaviria,then is Governor of Nariño, mayor of
grass, secretary of the Government ofBogotá. Senator. He' s a
man who kept betting on institutionality.I think there is no better example than
that, after in the middle ofthe presidential campaign let' s say that
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one of the greatest victims of violencewas precisely the one who was the presidential
candidate who had been Navarro' spartner in the entire peace process of nine
hundred and ninety. Well, we, the first of all, negotiate to
make constituent networks. Let' sgo or peace. We agree with historical
mention. The Assembly is a heightof history, historic determination. We signed
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it on the 9th of March ofa thousand nine hundred and ninety and the
first endowment since the cérgemapa pedessa wasof gift more or two days later.
We did, we had a nationalton prisoner, the prisoner of peace.
We had the national reconcision, ofcourse, and we agreed at that time
and a national census was opening upand we were excited and supported it with
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all our relations in the day.But, of course, because peace is
a matter of conciliation, it fellto land paid at that time when weight
was being used, a way outof such violence. It was relatively easy
for us to get into that momentof consensus. We were signing the peace.
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It' s an act of reconciliation. It was, to some extent,
as was said at the time,a peace treaty and indeed it was.
It was because there was initialled thepeace that had been achieved with the
m nineteen, with the pl andwith the Lame quintin movement to mention those
that were most significant. We madetremendous efforts to get the other guerrilla groups,
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particularly the PARK and LLN, tocome to the Assembly, to sit
with us and to seek the constructionof the new country. Finally, it
was not possible, they did notaccept it, but it was a peace
treaty. No doubt now that theconstituent was intended to achieve peace in the
country and that, to the extentthat peace in the country was not achieved,
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the Constitution of the 1990s and onewas a failure, for it seems
to me that it is to lookat things in a very small and very
unclear spirit about what was at issue. We saw it in our first chapter.
The 1990 Constitution was a peace pact, at least the result of four
separate peace processes that demobilized armed groupsto join the political debate. Not only
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was the 19th among the seventy-four constituents, four who had a voice
but did not vote, the newlydemobilized guerrillas, the People' s Liberation
Army, the armed movement Quintinlame,the current of Socialist Renewal and the Revolutionary
Workers' Party also had a chairin this unlikely consensus. This was the
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role that peace and the constituent played, one in the other and the other,
the constituent was at the time,that imperfect peace of each process in
our history, even with more errorsor at least more fundamental gaps than those
of other processes, some that hadbeen declared before, such as the genocide
of the UPE, others that werefixed forward, such as the absence of
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the FARK on the same day thatthose who were to form the National Constituent
Assembly were elected. On December 9, 1990, the government of César Gaviria
Trujillo decided to bombard Casaverde headquarters ofwhich it was the largest guerrilla in the
history of Colombia. Governments were alwayslooking for processes of approximation with the farra.
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It was done by the Gontancourt,by the way, with amnesty laws
and pardons that the previous Constitution had. Betancourt even got a one- year
truce with the national guerrilla coordinator Barco, as I just said, because he
managed to reintegrate the 19th all the19th. Navarro, by the way,
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could have been Minister of Gaviria beforethe constituent, because they are already reintegrated.
And, by the way, Iremember that when the disputed decision of
the Court came out, the Presidentof the Court of the time said that
that Constitution was going to be thequestion for peace, because the ln had
said that if there was conscience,there would be peace. We' re
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still waiting for the LN to reincorporate. The other strong group is FARC,
LASFAR. He did not participate inthis process. Those for just came from
being reintegrated right now with the Governmentof Santos, with instruments of the ninety
- one question, but that camefrom eighty- six LAFAR, including the
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parts of the Kurules oppressions, thathe did not accept. There were some
groups and it has to be saidthat they were reintegrated as a result of
the constituent, which were basically LPL, LPL, which was an important but
minor group, the quintin licks thePRT. It' s true. These
groups joined the 19th m was alreadyintegrated only that already participated electorally, but
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before participating electorally in the constituent.So it has to be said, he
had also participated in the presidential campaignand Antonio Navarro, as a candidate after
the murder of Paizarro, took eighthundred thousand votes because the m nineteen,
unlike the FAR, had been agroup We said that they pointed a lot
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to popular acceptance, while the farcicalput in actions that exacerbated the people.
Then it' s not entirely true. The proof is that today we are
still in the same situation. TheConstituent Assembly cannot be unaware that these groups
were reintegrated. It is not truethat it was the nineteenth month, because
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it had already done so with theFAR The FAR were not so much reintegrated
that on the same day 9 Novemberof the 1990s that the Constituent was being
elected, the Gaviria government attacked CasaVerde, which was the place of refuge
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of LASFAR. Maybe I don't know if for that reason. The
Far never joined the process, neverparticipated in the constituent. Now if we
look at the results, then itmust be said that the constituent was not
properly the Constitution for peace. Therewere mechanisms they didn' t use.
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It is true that Gono de Gabriawas even allowed to give indefinite kurules to
the parties if they entered, theydid not enter. The Constitution of ninety
- one was a fundamental product ofwhat the 19th EM called the national dialogue
for a long time, since thetime of Batemano in the eighties and two,
that is, almost ten years passedand was a product of the peace
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process with the 19th m, withthe Government of Barco, initially and later
with the signing of peace with CésarGaviria, despite the assassination of Pizarro,
That is, that the conception ofpeace as revolution, as Grave should have
in his book, was immersed inall that process and in the last.
It was the Democratic Alliance of theNineteen, and that was in the peace
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agreements. It coincided with the seventhPapeilleta, which also had a very important
involvement in that. The young peopleof that time, the liberal sectors and
so on. Carrillo and such,but it was not only a constitution for
peace, but product of the facee. Well, in' 90s I was
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really small. I did not livethat moment of the constituent of ninety-
one, what I know of theConstituent of ninety- one. I learned
it from my family, from mygrandmother. My grandmother is ninety years old
and my grandmother has the memory oftime of violence, time of the chulavitas.
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So, my grandmother lived through theviolence. They lived all that memory
And then what I know about thatmoment is through their stories, through their
narratives, that forced them to turnto some preserves and other liberals who did
not recognize their rights as a blackmind. And I start from there,
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because I think it is from therethat we recognize ourselves as Afro- descendants,
author, recognizing ourselves as part ofthe construction of this country, of
this nation, as that path.In a way, the Constitution of the
1990s is a product of the strugglesthat the peoples were already making, of
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the struggles that we were doing ascommunities. The first thing to remember is
that when peace dialogues took place,there was a discussion as to whether such
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peace dialogues, as had happened inthe 1990s and 1990s, should end with
a constituent or not. And inthat discussion I very much remember the position
of the farcical women, who didwant a constituent, and the position of
the government was no. We arenot going to negotiate, like the entire
institutional architecture of the Colombian state,with an insurgent force that, moreover,
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was already supremely deteriorated militarily. Whatwe are going to negotiate is how they
are going to become political actors andhow under which rules of the game we
are going to end the armed conflictspecifically set out for that purpose, and
I think that this debate illustrates verywell the relationship between the PAZE agreements and
the Constitution of the ninety- one. The peace agreements are a set of
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rules of the game whose primary objectivewas the termination of the Colombian armed conflict,
but which in the process of determiningthe conflict deepen the spirit of the
Constitution of the 1990s and one byexpanding further the spaces of political participation.
That is to say, I believethat in the peace agreements they are not
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only complementary and not only in thesame spirit as the Constitution of the 1990s,
but they also contributed. Let ussay to reaffirm the idea of the
multiple forms that political participation can takein a true democracy, that is,
to put it in other terms,are deepening of the Colombian democracy that had
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been contemplated in the Constitution of theninety- one without touching institutionality. Let
' s say, the only partof the institutionality that the agreements touch is
the institutionality related to the end ofthe conflict, in the incorporation of the
members of the parties to the politicalscenario, the economic scenario. In short,
then I think they do the workand illustrate very well how a fundamental
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and momentous political change can be carriedout without the need to reorganize the entire
Colombian apparatus and institutional design. Perhapsbecause of this account that intertwines peace with
the creation of the Constitution of ninehundred and ninety- one, as well
as its voids. In two thousandand sixteen, when agreements were close to
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being signed as a result of talksbetween the government of Juan Manuel Santos and
the FARK, this guerrilla called fortheir endorsement with a new Constituent Assembly.
That was out of the question,for reasons that are not very dissimilar to
those that are being used today todeter voices calling for a new Constitution as
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a result of national unemployment. However, the Havana Peace Accords are a fundamental
text, as they give as aresult an idea of a country that responds
to the nature of the Constitution,which seeks to fill some of its fundamental
gaps and connect it with the needsof the new country, a country that
was fully focused on the fight againstthe FARK that had gone from being a
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political agent in conflict with the swornenemy state. In addition to the drug
cartels, he has made an agentwhose political character was constantly questioned that he
was financing himself by controlling parts ofthe drug market, all in the middle
of a conflict that a considerable portionof the country' s political estate sought
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to deny as a conflict to installthe narrative that it was simply a criminal
group and part of that still persists. The defense of peace to a large
extent is a defense of the storywe want to tell and let tell about
what was and has been Colombia.Well, the constituent of the 1990s is
the result of a very important historicaljuncture. In the political and social life
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of the country. As you wellpoint out, the country was on a
path of atomization, of distortion ofits institutionality, due to the presence of
the graphic narcota, the violence ofdrug trafficking, the violence for the military
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and, of course, the violenceof guerrilla organizations facing the State, which
also led to the State exercising violencemany times beyond what was permitted by law
and the Constitution, and fell intothe field of the violation of human rights.
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But by the year 1990 there weretwo fortunate circumstances for the country.
Firstly, the position that some guerrillaorganizations have been promoting for several years,
including in particular the 19th EM,which has been raising the need for a
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national dialogue. Its founder, JaimeBateman, since the eighties, in the
context of the taking of the descentof the Dominican Republic, had raised the
need for a national dialogue, whichwas the national dialogue, the effort of
all sectors of the country to agreeon a great strategy, a great peace
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agreement, ultimately, a new constitutionthat marked the route, that marked the
way to solve the structural problems thatthe country had, was crystallized in a
position taken by the 19th to unilaterallyrenounce weapons. This is an element that
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needs to be highlighted, because the19th LM was not the product of an
agreement. It was a unilateral decision, the result of the conviction that the
use of violence, the use ofweapons did not solve the problem, but,
on the contrary, it deepened thedifferences and caused gravely serious year to
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Colombian society, because finally, itwas the agreement among the entire Colombian society
that had to open democratic spaces,that the Constitution of 1 80 eighty-
six had remained short to have allthe political expressions. We did not recognize
many rights, for example, ofindigenous people, which was something that was
not necessarily opened up and not onlywith the participation of the Quintilame Group,
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which was an indigenous group, anindigenous guerrilla group. But with regard to
all those requests, let us rememberthat the Epe LE had asked for a
constituent national assembly. The 19th EMhad also called for a great national dialogue
to change the Constitution, that is, not only the guerrilla groups at the
time, but also other progressive politicalsectors that were closed and outside that national
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pact, which was the national front, since they were calling for a new
political agreement to recognize all these differentsocial policies, to recognize the diversity of
Afros, indigenous people, political rightsand human, sexual and reproductive rights,
for example, of women. So, in a way that is clear,
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the Constitution of nine hundred and ninety- one is the sealing of a peace
agreement, because we agreed to bethere and let us not forget that it
seems very important to me, perhapsif you haven' t worked on it,
you haven' t talked about itin this space. But remember that
the m nineteen clearly demobilizes in ninehundred and ninety, that the far do
not enter. Let us remember thatthe bombing of Casa Verde, of which
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you have just spoken, precisely becausesome delegates of the national government are going
to be led because their Antonio Dejarano, the pair do not accept the conditions
that the government puts at that momentand not to accept, because it ends
with the bombing. But let usremember that the 19th m, since it
was nineteen constituents of seventy, wasthe second otation after the Liberal Party and
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even had more constituents than he,called the National Salvation Movement, which led
Álvaro gomez Urgan at the time Then, yes, yes, the participation of
the guerrilla groups was very important inthe Constituent Assembly. At that moment.
Peace was achieved with four demobilized groups. Don' t remember, the quintin,
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lamelm nineteen, the PRT and apl extraction with the bale comes to
the point. But there, inmy opinion, was a mistake by the
government of the time, which wasto bomb Casa Verde on the same day
as the Constituent Assembly. I saythis with affection because I have a price
and respect for President Gaviria. Butthat was President Gaviria' s dirty bay.
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Not to say crudely. He lethimself be counted of the army,
the same thing that Kennedy was allowedto count, which at that time could
have in Vía a pignos a favorableresult and they were wrong, they were
blown up again by the head ofthe farra and then that made it impossible
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to sit the potter as we didthe constituents. He invited you to come,
to speak, but because there wasno weather. He was represented by
the great mobilization of the youth andstudents of the time. You are aware
of this very high degree of fractionationof the atomization country, as they began
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to raise with Colombian society the needto approach a solution through peaceful means,
structuring, and the adoption of anew Constitution. And that' s how
they started promoting what became known asthe Seventh Paper. Undoubtedly, it was
a constitution designed for peace that hasstill reached us. It was a great
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political agreement of the leaders, letus say, of the great parties of
the time, but, especially atthe moment citizen, peace in Colombia has
not yet been consolidated. This isnot solely due to the text of the
Constitution. I believe, too,that there is a problem of structure,
of the State, of organization,of political power, of the political system,
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of the tuning of campaigns, thatuntil that has a proper solution,
because, undoubtedly, the great aspectof peace will not be consolidated in terms
of the peace agreements, because theydid need development, but in practice,
for me that has not progressed.That is to say, the peace agreements
have been fundamental to me and theyhave been raised as being on six points.
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Institutional adjustments were raised, but howmany decrees were created, how many
laws were created. We know themall not. The country has appropriated them,
not all of them. Not allof them have been appropriated by the
State as an institution. Yes,and one example is that the Bread Agreement
is not being implemented, it hasnot been implemented and it has not been
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implemented. For all that for meit is as much a network as a
bureaucratic web that does not establish concreteactions and that when it is followed up,
because it is also complex. Thatalso makes it more complex because it
follows up on so many decrees thatwere fired within the framework of the agreement
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of passing so many laws. Forme it' s like I don'
t know, but I see thatvery complex and maybe I don' t
have a specific answer. I'm not saying it' s not important.
I think it is important, butin terms of the effectiveness of the
State' s action, I believethat it is illusory. I feel that
it is embedded in that institutional bureaucracy. By the year ninety- one was
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the theme of the nineteenth month andappears as no. There is great hope
to have these factors of that guerrillain the political arena. In fact,
we have impressive scenes of a conservativesenator of the most recognized in the country
presiding over the Senate along with aguerrilla. That was a very strong message
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to the country of reconciliation that peaceis possible. It' s still a
very powerful message. Then, theConstitution of the year 1990 and one managed
to show us figures who were irreconcilablein the same scenario, discussing, thinking,
working around the country that we dreamedand said to advance very important.
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The year two thousand seventeen is ayear in which it is decided to include
in the Constitution the agreements signed withthe FAR and from there begin a process
of transformations that are unfinished, asare the whole issue of integral rural development,
a rural reform. All over there. There are some issues that are
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very much at the base of whatwas the conflict with the Fara over the
years, because it was a littledifferent the guerrillas of Me nineteen with the
guerrillas of Fars. They were twovery different guerrillas in their constitution, in
their actions and in their cover-up. Fark was always a much more
rural guerrilla, a guerrilla with alot of strength in that field and,
therefore, that had as a greatoptic of being transformations there. Hence the
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development plans with the territorial approach.That is why they are committed to comprehensive
rural reform and transformations, the veryimportant and including special jurisdictions, the possibilities
for them to have direct access tothe Chamber, people who come from the
world of special constituencies victims. Ithink the process has been difficult, painful.
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It was painful to leave after theyear Carlos, which the m nineteen
signs peace. This period has alsobeen very painful, very complex. Peace
processes are often very difficult. Post- conflict processes are often subject to multiple
threats and difficulties, to which weare not exempt from that, but while
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recognizing those difficulties, I would liketo draw attention to the fact that this
process that we had today has,without a doubt, very hopeful marks.
After the signing of the agreement withAFARK, we are seeing political actors that
we did not recognize. We haveregions of the country that are expressing much
more. The same protests we areexperiencing are the result of renewed citizen capacity.
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Different. We have a much moreactive citizenship and transformations are taking place.
This is likely to take more thana decade, but there is a
path that has been drawn and thereis a citizenship increasingly and more with the
focus and focus clearly put on theneed to advance in the n n of
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the agreements, in what is thecomplex and long road to building the difficult
peace. It is a demanding path, it is a very challenging path,
but that is why we must maintainperseverance, dedication, we must maintain the
will to advance in that field,which is the one that will assure us
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the project of country with which wehave dreamed. Yes, well, I
believe that there has not been sufficientassimilation of the deep sense and spirit of
the Constitution of the 1990s. Andthat leads different sectors to argue that it
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needs to be revised, others toargue that it is necessary to convene a
new Constituent National Assembly and adopt anew Constitution. I believe that the spirit
of the Constitution of the 1990s hasto do with a central aspect of the
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difficulties that we Colombians have had,and is to overcome the violence so that
we find opportunities and ways of peace. I believe that this is the importance
of the Constitution of 1990 and,in fact, the actors who participated as
constituents expressed these very different sectors.The whole range of sectors of traditional politics,
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new political expressions, new social expressionswere seated there. For the first
time, his representation of the indigenouscommunities, from the guerrillas to the sport,
because it must be remembered that FranciscoPacho Matunana was a constituent. Religious
expressions were also recognized, even forthe military. There was a constituent who
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came from the cento of the paramilitaries, that is, what was expressed there.
It was a desire for peace thatis largely reflected in the provisions of
the national Constitution. Yes, Ithink we should say the latest reforms that
have been made in the Political Charterthat have to do with the implementation of
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the agreement. They located the victimsin the center of the true system and
that had never happened. In otherwords, we have never had a system
where the victims were the main protagonists, as they are doing in the comprehensive
system of truth, justice and reparation. Then it seems to me that it
is not only to seek transitional justice, but to tell them we will listen
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to the victims. You are theprotagonists of peace, because if we do
not listen to the victims, wewill repeat again all the phenomena of violence
that we have seen in other stocks. It seems to me that the big
bet is to claim their rights,to see them as full citizens, not
as the poor victim. No,it' s not victimizing, it'
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s not telling her look. Youare a citizen with full rights and the
fundamental right that you have to knowthe truth. So the big bet,
as a society, is to knowthe truth. You can' t turn
the page without reading it. Thenwe have to know the truth. And
as a society, seeking channels ofreconciliation and non- repetition, many of
the rights of freedom and political rights, as well as the reform of the
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political system, the reform of Congresswere part of that great menu of making
viable that democratic political system that waswanted and overcoming those subjective causes of violence.
It was not being able to participatethis especially to the demand of the
nineteenth eMe and this type of morerecent guerrillas, that beyond having one day
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Soviet speech or Chinese line or Castroline, what I had was an intention
to open the political scenario, tobegin. Obviously there could be a lot
of ideological connections to these lines andabove all individually. But this is going
to be an important impetus within theConstitution and within the Assembly, and it
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was we who demobilized if there ispolitical openness. Yes, that issue of
the kurules of peace has been extremelydifficult. I mean, I don'
t want to go into complex technicallegal details, but undoubtedly beyond that,
because the victims have to feel representedin the Congress of the Republic, that
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is, they have to hear theirvoices. So I think we have to
be afraid that victims will speak,because victims should not only speak in judicial
settings such as the GeV or theTruth Commission, but victims have the right
to participate in the decision- makingbodies of the Colombian State, such as
a Congress of the Republic. Well, I thought in the' 90s,
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the subject of the victims of thearmed convict wasn' t that definite.
It came to be defined much moreclearly. Then the Episcopal Conference came to
place the subject of forced displacement.Almost at that time there began to be
talk of forced placement and the firstfundamental investigations were carried out here in the
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form of forgiveness, already around theyear ninety- six. Ninety- seven
is when the Episcopal Conference published areport on forced displacement and draws attention by
saying that we do not have theconcept of forced displacement in Colombian legislation.
And there is a long history displacedin Colombia and we published some statistics,
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we published a report that caused agreat impact in the country, which then
becomes a law in nineteen hundred andninety- eight, in the law three
hundred and ten, which is thefirst league placed during the issue of forced
displacement. From there it will comeas a chain of events, a succession
of events that are going to leadto the law of victims and restitution of
(36:14):
land. But the universe, theconception of victims, the definition of victims,
the recognition of the suffering they hadhad, the need to be repaired
and to be removed from their dignity, will come after the Constitution of the
year ninety- one. In thenineties and ones, that was, but
it had not been defined, itwas not completely profiled. It will be
(36:37):
later, when it is unleashed onthose facts and probably the framework of the
Constitution of the year ninety- onewas the one that allowed us to begin
to talk about forced dispassion, sowe give ourselves on the table age and
push so that the legislation that wehave on this issue became reality today.
(37:08):
We see when a government concentrates allits power, all its capacity, all
its privileges, that it believes ithas with a majority in Congress and runs
over society then and pulls out paramilitarismto fire along with the armed forces,
(37:32):
with the law enforcement, that arethe legitimate users of weapons. It is
not anyone, but the public forcessaying that they will fight alongside civilians or
civilians alongside the security forces. That, that' s just living here.
(37:53):
We have been living in the countryfor five years that the plebiscite of two
thousand and sixteen left us and thethings that are seeing him explode unable to
re- accommodate. Now that,after the dismantling of the FARK, other
problems grab the national agenda and wecan clearly see that they were not that
giant coconut or at least they canno longer be at this time. Now
(38:14):
that we have filled our headlines withthe murder of leaders and social leaders,
as well as of the combatants whosign the peace accords, questions that are
actually very old about what a stateis or what it represents, but above
all how much it measures or shouldit measure, are gaining new prominence.
When we talk about peace, we' re not just talking about stopping,
(38:35):
about shooting, which is enough.We' re talking economics history and geography.
We are talking about territories, theirhistorical needs, their emergencies and the
demands that were not met by thesigning of a truce. Peace could not
simply be a covenant. It hadto have a map, because Colombia has
a map full of holes and omissionsand mountains and jungles and plains. How
(39:01):
the State Presence understood the Constitution ofone thousand nine hundred and ninety- one
and how the Colombian State seems tounderstand it today, after five years of
signing the agreements of the Teatro Colón. Highlight that the Constitution of the 1990s
gives us some guidelines. It recognizesus as peoples, but also, above
(39:22):
all, as human beings, becausebefore we were not recognized as black peoples.
As human beings. We were onemore thing, no, and it
is still that you recognize us asa scenic people and as human beings,
sentient, thinking and part of society. But we have to look at a
number of things, as an anxietiesthat we have suffered for the most part
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in the context of the armed conflict, there are many other damages that are
suffered and that always require being articulatedby the Constitution of the ninety- one
so that our rights are not trampledon. And here I speak to you,
for example, the law fourteen forty- eight you remember. I know
there are victims in the country.And if I go to the subject,
for example, of sensual violence inthe context of the armed conflict, where
(40:07):
more than thirty- two thousand victims, and if I go to the percentage
speaks more than thirteen percent black womenvictim of sexual violence. Then let us
say how conflict has been embedded inour peoples, in our roots, in
our surroundings and our bodies have beenused as an end to war. And
(40:28):
yes, yes, very good.The Constitution of ninety- one allows me
to have arguments to defend myself.It allows me to say listen look,
I am also from Colombian society,I am also the sentient human being,
so respect my right and recognize thatwhere yours end mine begin, where mine
begin. I' m missing,but there' s a lot of stuff.
There is still a need for moreeducation, more employability, decent housing
(40:53):
for Black people, because we,as black peoples, say the largest families
are Black, indigenous, but mostlyBlack communities. The problem is that the
power structure has not changed. Andthis, then, may sound a little
subversive and may sound a little yes. That as a revolutionary, but it
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is true pitifully, if we beginto look back and see who have been
ruling the country, we still seethe same surnames, the same structures,
the same gamones, the same lindajesthat we want to call in some way
in the territories, which are theones that have been ruling and have been
sequentially following in power. So manysay it' s clear that the National
(41:45):
Front is over, but we perpetuatedit. It' s this way of
alternating power or alternating power between them, and I think that makes a little
bit of that dead end, ofseeing in those who sign the, in
whom they enter politically to compete withdifferent ideas, we continue to see enemies
there pitifully. That' s notgonna change him any prostiction. We,
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in the Public Prosecutor' s Office, in my time as procurator, organized
six summits of social dialogue. Inthe summits of social dialogue was seated Doña
Lina Moreno de Brie de Vélez,with Timochenco, was the president of the
Democratic Center, with the president ofthe common former guerrillas, former paramilitaries,
the social organizations of the country,the entrepreneurs who were fundamental. At the
(42:31):
summits and in an almost unlikely way, we drew six consensuses that were the
result of a two- year work. Six agreements on diversity and recognition,
citizen participation, rural reform, educationalreform in drug trafficking, signed by a
completely diverse country. And I'm not talking about this that year.
(42:52):
I' m talking about October lastyear, that we delivered those documents.
So I think that if you givethis a little bit of reflection with those
who know who have made the sevenproposals that you make at the National University,
for example, the ten proposals thatMINGA makes, for example, to
talk about the reflection and deliberation ofa social group that wants to be stigmatized
(43:13):
by violence and so on, butthat has sat down to make proposals for
reform of the country. If youput all that together, you' re
going to get ten general questions aboutthe ten reforms that you need columbian health,
education, justice, the rural,the regional. So I believe that
those consensuses are possible to achieve themprecisely when we get to that point where
(43:36):
there seems to be no other wayout, that that is the dramatic thing
about going back to extremes, oran authoritarian system that is going to try
to solve social problems with law ofpublic order, or a populist system that
is going to only try to createempty illusions for citizens, for example,
the absurd, fiscally unsustainable cost ofa number of reforms that are not travel.
(44:00):
And that' s what it's good for in college. I
believe that the university of balance,the University serves as a vehicle of dialogue
and if we look at the platformsof social dialogue that there was in Colombia,
there is a lot of consensus thatcan be consolidated and that told him
who the citizenry in the urras.So I think those possibilities exist for the
sample what happened in the' 90s. We are not talking about the fact
(44:22):
that this has not happened in thehistory of Colombia. Even the meeting of
Mr Laureano Gómez and Mr Albert Llerason the Spanish coast when the National Front
threw itself. That' s it. They were killing liberals and conservatives.
We' re getting out of adictatorship and someone said stop on the way.
Let' s sit down and talkLet' s hear each other out.
Let' s understand the other,let' s get to a rope
(44:45):
and everyone was talking about agreements,but the key to knowing procedurally, how
we' re going to get tothat body somehow. Yes, I think
that basically there was always talk andwith the part it was always discussed,
that the nerve point of the negotiationwith this armed group was the hard one
reform, a rural reform that allowedthe redistribution of the land, that has
not been achieved in all the republicanlife of this country. And we all
(45:07):
know that if we go back likethis, because that was the struggle between
liberals and conservatives and it was thestruggle afterwards between these guerrillas that later demobilized
in the fifty- seven struggle forland, and we still talk about the
same Techno so, in fact,the Constitution left us many gaps that were
not completely filled. But also theissue of political participation. Note that the
(45:30):
peace agreement with it contains six points. The first in comprehensive rural reform,
which is where we have not yetmanaged to settle that debt. And today
we see in the Colombian Congress andin power in Colombia, an important sector
of politics and that represents the interestsof farmers, ranchers and landowners who are
(45:51):
against that rural reform, so muchso that none of those articles have passed
through Congress and none of those reformsthat are interviewed in that article. At
that first point. Second point ofthe peace agreement with the parties is democratic
openness, openness which means, letus say, or is seen on several
points. One of them was thebestowal of the crucifixions on the ten crules
(46:14):
that are there today. That wasfulfilled. The status of the opposition was
fulfilled, which was something we were. We were being owed the political system
and that was the one that wasregulated and today is being said to be
in compliance. But look at thecurules for the victims. We are still
how many years after the signing ofthe agreement in a political dispute, because
(46:36):
there are sectors that refuse to allowfor another type of representativeness in Congress.
So if we only talk about thosetwo points without talking a little bit about
the third and fourth, which alsohave to do with the issue of the
solution to the crops of their smartones, which also goes through the agrarian
issue and the issue of not chasingthose who grow coca crops, because coca
kills do not hurt, or whatdoes harm is what man produces later with
(46:59):
that coca leaf. And so,as we have always been bent on a
fight against drug trafficking, which iscompletely proven to be useless. But we
are still under the aegis, let' s say, of the policy of
the United States in that sense,because there are things that remain unsatisfactoryly unchanged
(47:19):
and I believe things that the agreementpasses a mere amount to which they should
have been fulfilled in the Constitution,or which are not fully developed in the
Constitution, or which are articles thatthe Constitution has but which were not and
have not been developed by the legislatureduring all these years, and so we
do continue to have some unfinished batteriesthat, hopefully, the peace agreement signed
(47:40):
with the Parks is meant to remainin the bloc of constitutional, that is
to say, that it is partof our Constitution and that three governments are
obliged to comply with and implement thatpeace agreement. This one is already coming
to an end and well, weare not going to go into the details
of the balance sheet that has notbeen implemented so much by this government,
but I think that has already beendiscussed enough. We would have two more
governments left. So I think thatpart of the responsibility of the citizens and
(48:05):
cities of Colombia is to think verywell what kind of governments we are going
to choose in the future that willallow us to think about what this agreement
that is there has developed and endsup complementing what the Constitution could not complete.
But I say to my children,You didn' t get to see
that country in peace, perusia pivotmy granddaughters see it or the frozen promise
(48:39):
is a production of sound capital forcapital, public communication system. Today with
the voices of Ever Bustamante and García, Alejandro Ramele, Achilles Arrieta Gómez,
Octavo Safra, Roldamos, Sr Luis, Alexander so Shan dramandú Soy y Holanda
(49:02):
Perea, Fernando Carrillo, Flores,Sandra Borda, Guzmán, Cancielena Marquez,
Mena Mossenor Héctor, Fabio, Emao, Alfonso Gómez Méndez, Juan Carlos Es
Guerra, Portocarrero, Antonio Morales,Ribeira, Research and interviews by Vivianna Bello
and Pablo convers En. The interviewswere coordinated by Jorge Martínez and Fernanda Rojas
(49:23):
and conducted by Cristiano Hernández, MaríaAlejandra Cuestas in the production, Nisian González
in the narration edition by María AlejandraCuestas and Santiago Rivas. Our image is
the work of Laura Goldstein. Networksof assistance, production and realization thanks to
the digital team led by Jaime Barbosaand made up of Camila Velandia, Felipe
Laverde, Nicolás Peña, Nicolás Rodríguez, Sebastián Figueroa, Stephan and Jaramillo,
(49:45):
Laura Pava, Mavi Torres and ManuelBorna, Dirección General de Santiago Rivas.
This special was made for television inthe Alliance with the viewer, from whom
we released some audios for some episodesof this podcast. So thank you very
much. He used this episode.Please share it capital public communication system
B the presentation of the Roma people, the new the frozen promise, because
a country quite turbulent with the wholeissue of drug trafficking, narco terrorism,
and we had this explosion of severalguerrilla groups that were shouting, with bombs,
(00:26):
with tops, guerrillas and through violentways of acting. They were basically
asking for political space. And althoughmany say that no peace was made with
the guerrilla groups to demobilize them andbring them to the constituent in some way,
it did end up being. Formany who understand, the Constituent Assembly
of a thousand nine hundred and ninety- one ended the tip of a great
(00:48):
peace covenant. From the context pointof view, it is very clear.
For example, the decision of theSupreme Court of Justice is to the Constitutional
Court when it says what justifies thewhole constituent process, which was not enshrined
in the Constitution. The Constitutions aretreated as a passage to a famous phrase
by Norberto Obvio, which was likethe key to understanding the two judgments of
the Court that, on the onehand, paved the way for the decree
(01:12):
of the President of Barco to votethe ballot on 27 May, first in
the electoral card and then for PresidentGaviria, to allow the election of the
constituents on 9 December. And thatis key because, after all, because
it is first about the recognition offundamental political facts and that the motivation of
the process was peace for the show, because half a deciue of that house
(01:34):
benched so large, the country knewthat this was going in that direction.
But I think the FARK lost thatgreat opportunity and lost it. Let'
s say that because of a personalzeal that they saw that it was like
the constituent of the 19th eMe andthe others in guerrilla movements that were entering
civilian life and they lost that greatopportunity because we would have saved ourselves how
(01:57):
many dead and would have achieved,I think, how a transformation agenda was
achieved and could have entered civilian life. I think President Gaviria has said that
he did not know, for example, Casaverde' s attack was recently said
on 9 December, a thing thatis a little hard to believe, but
he says so not long before.They had that planned and it turns out
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they made the determination to do it. Great coincidence the day the constituents were
allying themselves. Then there were manydialogues that were attempted, but they definitely
realized that already with the 19 m, having nineteen constituent positions, they were
going to play a very marginal role. I think it was one thing.
In addition, I think of politicalmyopia, because they have not been able
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to gain a great space, regardlessof the space that the constituent medicine already
had and we would have saved ourselves, because everything that happened afterwards the ship
had made peace with the 19th LMwith Carlos Pizarro, before the question of
the ninety- one in March.Then, around the question of the 1990s
there are a lot of myths andalso some realities. One of those myths
(03:05):
is that it was made to makepeace with the 19th EM? That'
s not true. Peace with the19th EM had been made in the 1990s
with two state decrees of siege byPresident Virgilio Barco. It did exist like
hopelessness. People sought as exits why, because they were burdened by not only
(03:31):
the put murders, but particularly bythe bombs of Pablo Escobar. At that
time, narcoterrorism was more important thanthe creation of the social state, the
reorganization of the social state under therule of law, were very important steps
on the path to peace. Withouta doubt, so that peace was not
(03:53):
achieved sadly, but it was implementedand foundations were laid that should serve to
build peace in the country. Ido not think that at the moment the
truth, for example, the mouthpiecesof the up of people like the two
constituents that had the UP accused everythingto the constituent and put everything into the
(04:15):
peace process, regardless of what washappening. Navarro has a great testimony,
for example, on the day ofthe murder of Carlos Pizarro, which is
the same as the whole m ofnineteen told him. You guys get out
of this. This is over orthey' re not killing each other and
he said no. I have torespect my word and he went ahead and
achieved what he accomplished. Then.I put those two models to show that
(04:39):
there were people who did bet everything, regardless of whether there was that massacre
and that genocide, which is oneof the worst stories in the recent narrative,
because of what has been happening inthis country, but she was bet
on peace, they bet on theconstituent. I believe Navarro is a model
of a successful peace process and fundamentalchanges in the structure of the State.
(05:02):
A man who also finishes the constituentand passes to be the Minister of Health
of the Government of César Gaviria,then is Governor of Nariño, mayor of
grass, secretary of the Government ofBogotá. Senator. He' s a
man who kept betting on institutionality.I think there is no better example than
that, after in the middle ofthe presidential campaign let' s say that
(05:23):
one of the greatest victims of violencewas precisely the one who was the presidential
candidate who had been Navarro' spartner in the entire peace process of nine
hundred and ninety. Well, we, the first of all, negotiate to
make constituent networks. Let' sgo or peace. We agree with historical
mention. The Assembly is a heightof history, historic determination. We signed
(05:47):
it on the 9th of March ofa thousand nine hundred and ninety and the
first endowment since the cérgemapa pedessa wasof gift more or two days later.
We did, we had a nationalton prisoner, the prisoner of peace.
We had the national reconcision, ofcourse, and we agreed at that time
and a national census was opening upand we were excited and supported it with
(06:12):
all our relations in the day.But, of course, because peace is
a matter of conciliation, it fellto land paid at that time when weight
was being used, a way outof such violence. It was relatively easy
for us to get into that momentof consensus. We were signing the peace.
(06:41):
It' s an act of reconciliation. It was, to some extent,
as was said at the time,a peace treaty and indeed it was.
It was because there was initialled thepeace that had been achieved with the
m nineteen, with the pl andwith the Lame quintin movement to mention those
that were most significant. We madetremendous efforts to get the other guerrilla groups,
(07:03):
particularly the PARK and LLN, tocome to the Assembly, to sit
with us and to seek the constructionof the new country. Finally, it
was not possible, they did notaccept it, but it was a peace
treaty. No doubt now that theconstituent was intended to achieve peace in the
country and that, to the extentthat peace in the country was not achieved,
(07:24):
the Constitution of the 1990s and onewas a failure, for it seems
to me that it is to lookat things in a very small and very
unclear spirit about what was at issue. We saw it in our first chapter.
The 1990 Constitution was a peace pact, at least the result of four
separate peace processes that demobilized armed groupsto join the political debate. Not only
(07:50):
was the 19th among the seventy-four constituents, four who had a voice
but did not vote, the newlydemobilized guerrillas, the People' s Liberation
Army, the armed movement Quintinlame,the current of Socialist Renewal and the Revolutionary
Workers' Party also had a chairin this unlikely consensus. This was the
(08:13):
role that peace and the constituent played, one in the other and the other,
the constituent was at the time,that imperfect peace of each process in
our history, even with more errorsor at least more fundamental gaps than those
of other processes, some that hadbeen declared before, such as the genocide
of the UPE, others that werefixed forward, such as the absence of
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the FARK on the same day thatthose who were to form the National Constituent
Assembly were elected. On December 9, 1990, the government of César Gaviria
Trujillo decided to bombard Casaverde headquarters ofwhich it was the largest guerrilla in the
history of Colombia. Governments were alwayslooking for processes of approximation with the farra.
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It was done by the Gontancourt,by the way, with amnesty laws
and pardons that the previous Constitution had. Betancourt even got a one- year
truce with the national guerrilla coordinator Barco, as I just said, because he
managed to reintegrate the 19th all the19th. Navarro, by the way,
(09:24):
could have been Minister of Gaviria beforethe constituent, because they are already reintegrated.
And, by the way, Iremember that when the disputed decision of
the Court came out, the Presidentof the Court of the time said that
that Constitution was going to be thequestion for peace, because the ln had
said that if there was conscience,there would be peace. We' re
(09:46):
still waiting for the LN to reincorporate. The other strong group is FARC,
LASFAR. He did not participate inthis process. Those for just came from
being reintegrated right now with the Governmentof Santos, with instruments of the ninety
- one question, but that camefrom eighty- six LAFAR, including the
(10:09):
parts of the Kurules oppressions, thathe did not accept. There were some
groups and it has to be saidthat they were reintegrated as a result of
the constituent, which were basically LPL, LPL, which was an important but
minor group, the quintin licks thePRT. It' s true. These
groups joined the 19th m was alreadyintegrated only that already participated electorally, but
(10:37):
before participating electorally in the constituent.So it has to be said, he
had also participated in the presidential campaignand Antonio Navarro, as a candidate after
the murder of Paizarro, took eighthundred thousand votes because the m nineteen,
unlike the FAR, had been agroup We said that they pointed a lot
(11:01):
to popular acceptance, while the farcicalput in actions that exacerbated the people.
Then it' s not entirely true. The proof is that today we are
still in the same situation. TheConstituent Assembly cannot be unaware that these groups
were reintegrated. It is not truethat it was the nineteenth month, because
(11:22):
it had already done so with theFAR The FAR were not so much reintegrated
that on the same day 9 Novemberof the 1990s that the Constituent was being
elected, the Gaviria government attacked CasaVerde, which was the place of refuge
(11:43):
of LASFAR. Maybe I don't know if for that reason. The
Far never joined the process, neverparticipated in the constituent. Now if we
look at the results, then itmust be said that the constituent was not
properly the Constitution for peace. Therewere mechanisms they didn' t use.
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It is true that Gono de Gabriawas even allowed to give indefinite kurules to
the parties if they entered, theydid not enter. The Constitution of ninety
- one was a fundamental product ofwhat the 19th EM called the national dialogue
for a long time, since thetime of Batemano in the eighties and two,
that is, almost ten years passedand was a product of the peace
(12:33):
process with the 19th m, withthe Government of Barco, initially and later
with the signing of peace with CésarGaviria, despite the assassination of Pizarro,
That is, that the conception ofpeace as revolution, as Grave should have
in his book, was immersed inall that process and in the last.
It was the Democratic Alliance of theNineteen, and that was in the peace
(12:56):
agreements. It coincided with the seventhPapeilleta, which also had a very important
involvement in that. The young peopleof that time, the liberal sectors and
so on. Carrillo and such,but it was not only a constitution for
peace, but product of the facee. Well, in' 90s I was
(13:16):
really small. I did not livethat moment of the constituent of ninety-
one, what I know of theConstituent of ninety- one. I learned
it from my family, from mygrandmother. My grandmother is ninety years old
and my grandmother has the memory oftime of violence, time of the chulavitas.
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So, my grandmother lived through theviolence. They lived all that memory
And then what I know about thatmoment is through their stories, through their
narratives, that forced them to turnto some preserves and other liberals who did
not recognize their rights as a blackmind. And I start from there,
(14:09):
because I think it is from therethat we recognize ourselves as Afro- descendants,
author, recognizing ourselves as part ofthe construction of this country, of
this nation, as that path.In a way, the Constitution of the
1990s is a product of the strugglesthat the peoples were already making, of
(14:30):
the struggles that we were doing ascommunities. The first thing to remember is
that when peace dialogues took place,there was a discussion as to whether such
(14:52):
peace dialogues, as had happened inthe 1990s and 1990s, should end with
a constituent or not. And inthat discussion I very much remember the position
of the farcical women, who didwant a constituent, and the position of
the government was no. We arenot going to negotiate, like the entire
institutional architecture of the Colombian state,with an insurgent force that, moreover,
(15:15):
was already supremely deteriorated militarily. Whatwe are going to negotiate is how they
are going to become political actors andhow under which rules of the game we
are going to end the armed conflictspecifically set out for that purpose, and
I think that this debate illustrates verywell the relationship between the PAZE agreements and
the Constitution of the ninety- one. The peace agreements are a set of
(15:37):
rules of the game whose primary objectivewas the termination of the Colombian armed conflict,
but which in the process of determiningthe conflict deepen the spirit of the
Constitution of the 1990s and one byexpanding further the spaces of political participation.
That is to say, I believethat in the peace agreements they are not
(16:02):
only complementary and not only in thesame spirit as the Constitution of the 1990s,
but they also contributed. Let ussay to reaffirm the idea of the
multiple forms that political participation can takein a true democracy, that is,
to put it in other terms,are deepening of the Colombian democracy that had
(16:25):
been contemplated in the Constitution of theninety- one without touching institutionality. Let
' s say, the only partof the institutionality that the agreements touch is
the institutionality related to the end ofthe conflict, in the incorporation of the
members of the parties to the politicalscenario, the economic scenario. In short,
then I think they do the workand illustrate very well how a fundamental
(16:49):
and momentous political change can be carriedout without the need to reorganize the entire
Colombian apparatus and institutional design. Perhapsbecause of this account that intertwines peace with
the creation of the Constitution of ninehundred and ninety- one, as well
as its voids. In two thousandand sixteen, when agreements were close to
(17:10):
being signed as a result of talksbetween the government of Juan Manuel Santos and
the FARK, this guerrilla called fortheir endorsement with a new Constituent Assembly.
That was out of the question,for reasons that are not very dissimilar to
those that are being used today todeter voices calling for a new Constitution as
(17:30):
a result of national unemployment. However, the Havana Peace Accords are a fundamental
text, as they give as aresult an idea of a country that responds
to the nature of the Constitution,which seeks to fill some of its fundamental
gaps and connect it with the needsof the new country, a country that
was fully focused on the fight againstthe FARK that had gone from being a
(17:53):
political agent in conflict with the swornenemy state. In addition to the drug
cartels, he has made an agentwhose political character was constantly questioned that he
was financing himself by controlling parts ofthe drug market, all in the middle
of a conflict that a considerable portionof the country' s political estate sought
(18:14):
to deny as a conflict to installthe narrative that it was simply a criminal
group and part of that still persists. The defense of peace to a large
extent is a defense of the storywe want to tell and let tell about
what was and has been Colombia.Well, the constituent of the 1990s is
the result of a very important historicaljuncture. In the political and social life
(18:42):
of the country. As you wellpoint out, the country was on a
path of atomization, of distortion ofits institutionality, due to the presence of
the graphic narcota, the violence ofdrug trafficking, the violence for the military
(19:07):
and, of course, the violenceof guerrilla organizations facing the State, which
also led to the State exercising violencemany times beyond what was permitted by law
and the Constitution, and fell intothe field of the violation of human rights.
(19:29):
But by the year 1990 there weretwo fortunate circumstances for the country.
Firstly, the position that some guerrillaorganizations have been promoting for several years,
including in particular the 19th EM,which has been raising the need for a
(19:52):
national dialogue. Its founder, JaimeBateman, since the eighties, in the
context of the taking of the descentof the Dominican Republic, had raised the
need for a national dialogue, whichwas the national dialogue, the effort of
all sectors of the country to agreeon a great strategy, a great peace
(20:18):
agreement, ultimately, a new constitutionthat marked the route, that marked the
way to solve the structural problems thatthe country had, was crystallized in a
position taken by the 19th to unilaterallyrenounce weapons. This is an element that
(20:44):
needs to be highlighted, because the19th LM was not the product of an
agreement. It was a unilateral decision, the result of the conviction that the
use of violence, the use ofweapons did not solve the problem, but,
on the contrary, it deepened thedifferences and caused gravely serious year to
(21:06):
Colombian society, because finally, itwas the agreement among the entire Colombian society
that had to open democratic spaces,that the Constitution of 1 80 eighty-
six had remained short to have allthe political expressions. We did not recognize
many rights, for example, ofindigenous people, which was something that was
not necessarily opened up and not onlywith the participation of the Quintilame Group,
(21:30):
which was an indigenous group, anindigenous guerrilla group. But with regard to
all those requests, let us rememberthat the Epe LE had asked for a
constituent national assembly. The 19th EMhad also called for a great national dialogue
to change the Constitution, that is, not only the guerrilla groups at the
time, but also other progressive politicalsectors that were closed and outside that national
(21:52):
pact, which was the national front, since they were calling for a new
political agreement to recognize all these differentsocial policies, to recognize the diversity of
Afros, indigenous people, political rightsand human, sexual and reproductive rights,
for example, of women. So, in a way that is clear,
(22:12):
the Constitution of nine hundred and ninety- one is the sealing of a peace
agreement, because we agreed to bethere and let us not forget that it
seems very important to me, perhapsif you haven' t worked on it,
you haven' t talked about itin this space. But remember that
the m nineteen clearly demobilizes in ninehundred and ninety, that the far do
not enter. Let us remember thatthe bombing of Casa Verde, of which
(22:34):
you have just spoken, precisely becausesome delegates of the national government are going
to be led because their Antonio Dejarano, the pair do not accept the conditions
that the government puts at that momentand not to accept, because it ends
with the bombing. But let usremember that the 19th m, since it
was nineteen constituents of seventy, wasthe second otation after the Liberal Party and
(22:57):
even had more constituents than he,called the National Salvation Movement, which led
Álvaro gomez Urgan at the time Then, yes, yes, the participation of
the guerrilla groups was very important inthe Constituent Assembly. At that moment.
Peace was achieved with four demobilized groups. Don' t remember, the quintin,
(23:17):
lamelm nineteen, the PRT and apl extraction with the bale comes to
the point. But there, inmy opinion, was a mistake by the
government of the time, which wasto bomb Casa Verde on the same day
as the Constituent Assembly. I saythis with affection because I have a price
and respect for President Gaviria. Butthat was President Gaviria' s dirty bay.
(23:40):
Not to say crudely. He lethimself be counted of the army,
the same thing that Kennedy was allowedto count, which at that time could
have in Vía a pignos a favorableresult and they were wrong, they were
blown up again by the head ofthe farra and then that made it impossible
(24:03):
to sit the potter as we didthe constituents. He invited you to come,
to speak, but because there wasno weather. He was represented by
the great mobilization of the youth andstudents of the time. You are aware
of this very high degree of fractionationof the atomization country, as they began
(24:27):
to raise with Colombian society the needto approach a solution through peaceful means,
structuring, and the adoption of anew Constitution. And that' s how
they started promoting what became known asthe Seventh Paper. Undoubtedly, it was
a constitution designed for peace that hasstill reached us. It was a great
(24:52):
political agreement of the leaders, letus say, of the great parties of
the time, but, especially atthe moment citizen, peace in Colombia has
not yet been consolidated. This isnot solely due to the text of the
Constitution. I believe, too,that there is a problem of structure,
of the State, of organization,of political power, of the political system,
(25:14):
of the tuning of campaigns, thatuntil that has a proper solution,
because, undoubtedly, the great aspectof peace will not be consolidated in terms
of the peace agreements, because theydid need development, but in practice,
for me that has not progressed.That is to say, the peace agreements
have been fundamental to me and theyhave been raised as being on six points.
(25:40):
Institutional adjustments were raised, but howmany decrees were created, how many
laws were created. We know themall not. The country has appropriated them,
not all of them. Not allof them have been appropriated by the
State as an institution. Yes,and one example is that the Bread Agreement
is not being implemented, it hasnot been implemented and it has not been
(26:03):
implemented. For all that for meit is as much a network as a
bureaucratic web that does not establish concreteactions and that when it is followed up,
because it is also complex. Thatalso makes it more complex because it
follows up on so many decrees thatwere fired within the framework of the agreement
(26:29):
of passing so many laws. Forme it' s like I don'
t know, but I see thatvery complex and maybe I don' t
have a specific answer. I'm not saying it' s not important.
I think it is important, butin terms of the effectiveness of the
State' s action, I believethat it is illusory. I feel that
it is embedded in that institutional bureaucracy. By the year ninety- one was
(26:53):
the theme of the nineteenth month andappears as no. There is great hope
to have these factors of that guerrillain the political arena. In fact,
we have impressive scenes of a conservativesenator of the most recognized in the country
presiding over the Senate along with aguerrilla. That was a very strong message
(27:15):
to the country of reconciliation that peaceis possible. It' s still a
very powerful message. Then, theConstitution of the year 1990 and one managed
to show us figures who were irreconcilablein the same scenario, discussing, thinking,
working around the country that we dreamedand said to advance very important.
(27:36):
The year two thousand seventeen is ayear in which it is decided to include
in the Constitution the agreements signed withthe FAR and from there begin a process
of transformations that are unfinished, asare the whole issue of integral rural development,
a rural reform. All over there. There are some issues that are
(27:59):
very much at the base of whatwas the conflict with the Fara over the
years, because it was a littledifferent the guerrillas of Me nineteen with the
guerrillas of Fars. They were twovery different guerrillas in their constitution, in
their actions and in their cover-up. Fark was always a much more
rural guerrilla, a guerrilla with alot of strength in that field and,
therefore, that had as a greatoptic of being transformations there. Hence the
(28:22):
development plans with the territorial approach.That is why they are committed to comprehensive
rural reform and transformations, the veryimportant and including special jurisdictions, the possibilities
for them to have direct access tothe Chamber, people who come from the
world of special constituencies victims. Ithink the process has been difficult, painful.
(28:49):
It was painful to leave after theyear Carlos, which the m nineteen
signs peace. This period has alsobeen very painful, very complex. Peace
processes are often very difficult. Post- conflict processes are often subject to multiple
threats and difficulties, to which weare not exempt from that, but while
(29:14):
recognizing those difficulties, I would liketo draw attention to the fact that this
process that we had today has,without a doubt, very hopeful marks.
After the signing of the agreement withAFARK, we are seeing political actors that
we did not recognize. We haveregions of the country that are expressing much
more. The same protests we areexperiencing are the result of renewed citizen capacity.
(29:38):
Different. We have a much moreactive citizenship and transformations are taking place.
This is likely to take more thana decade, but there is a
path that has been drawn and thereis a citizenship increasingly and more with the
focus and focus clearly put on theneed to advance in the n n of
(29:59):
the agreements, in what is thecomplex and long road to building the difficult
peace. It is a demanding path, it is a very challenging path,
but that is why we must maintainperseverance, dedication, we must maintain the
will to advance in that field,which is the one that will assure us
(30:21):
the project of country with which wehave dreamed. Yes, well, I
believe that there has not been sufficientassimilation of the deep sense and spirit of
the Constitution of the 1990s. Andthat leads different sectors to argue that it
(30:41):
needs to be revised, others toargue that it is necessary to convene a
new Constituent National Assembly and adopt anew Constitution. I believe that the spirit
of the Constitution of the 1990s hasto do with a central aspect of the
(31:04):
difficulties that we Colombians have had,and is to overcome the violence so that
we find opportunities and ways of peace. I believe that this is the importance
of the Constitution of 1990 and,in fact, the actors who participated as
constituents expressed these very different sectors.The whole range of sectors of traditional politics,
(31:36):
new political expressions, new social expressionswere seated there. For the first
time, his representation of the indigenouscommunities, from the guerrillas to the sport,
because it must be remembered that FranciscoPacho Matunana was a constituent. Religious
expressions were also recognized, even forthe military. There was a constituent who
(32:07):
came from the cento of the paramilitaries, that is, what was expressed there.
It was a desire for peace thatis largely reflected in the provisions of
the national Constitution. Yes, Ithink we should say the latest reforms that
have been made in the Political Charterthat have to do with the implementation of
(32:28):
the agreement. They located the victimsin the center of the true system and
that had never happened. In otherwords, we have never had a system
where the victims were the main protagonists, as they are doing in the comprehensive
system of truth, justice and reparation. Then it seems to me that it
is not only to seek transitional justice, but to tell them we will listen
(32:50):
to the victims. You are theprotagonists of peace, because if we do
not listen to the victims, wewill repeat again all the phenomena of violence
that we have seen in other stocks. It seems to me that the big
bet is to claim their rights,to see them as full citizens, not
as the poor victim. No,it' s not victimizing, it'
(33:12):
s not telling her look. Youare a citizen with full rights and the
fundamental right that you have to knowthe truth. So the big bet,
as a society, is to knowthe truth. You can' t turn
the page without reading it. Thenwe have to know the truth. And
as a society, seeking channels ofreconciliation and non- repetition, many of
the rights of freedom and political rights, as well as the reform of the
(33:37):
political system, the reform of Congresswere part of that great menu of making
viable that democratic political system that waswanted and overcoming those subjective causes of violence.
It was not being able to participatethis especially to the demand of the
nineteenth eMe and this type of morerecent guerrillas, that beyond having one day
(34:01):
Soviet speech or Chinese line or Castroline, what I had was an intention
to open the political scenario, tobegin. Obviously there could be a lot
of ideological connections to these lines andabove all individually. But this is going
to be an important impetus within theConstitution and within the Assembly, and it
(34:24):
was we who demobilized if there ispolitical openness. Yes, that issue of
the kurules of peace has been extremelydifficult. I mean, I don'
t want to go into complex technicallegal details, but undoubtedly beyond that,
because the victims have to feel representedin the Congress of the Republic, that
(34:45):
is, they have to hear theirvoices. So I think we have to
be afraid that victims will speak,because victims should not only speak in judicial
settings such as the GeV or theTruth Commission, but victims have the right
to participate in the decision- makingbodies of the Colombian State, such as
a Congress of the Republic. Well, I thought in the' 90s,
(35:07):
the subject of the victims of thearmed convict wasn' t that definite.
It came to be defined much moreclearly. Then the Episcopal Conference came to
place the subject of forced displacement.Almost at that time there began to be
talk of forced placement and the firstfundamental investigations were carried out here in the
(35:31):
form of forgiveness, already around theyear ninety- six. Ninety- seven
is when the Episcopal Conference published areport on forced displacement and draws attention by
saying that we do not have theconcept of forced displacement in Colombian legislation.
And there is a long history displacedin Colombia and we published some statistics,
(35:52):
we published a report that caused agreat impact in the country, which then
becomes a law in nineteen hundred andninety- eight, in the law three
hundred and ten, which is thefirst league placed during the issue of forced
displacement. From there it will comeas a chain of events, a succession
of events that are going to leadto the law of victims and restitution of
(36:14):
land. But the universe, theconception of victims, the definition of victims,
the recognition of the suffering they hadhad, the need to be repaired
and to be removed from their dignity, will come after the Constitution of the
year ninety- one. In thenineties and ones, that was, but
it had not been defined, itwas not completely profiled. It will be
(36:37):
later, when it is unleashed onthose facts and probably the framework of the
Constitution of the year ninety- onewas the one that allowed us to begin
to talk about forced dispassion, sowe give ourselves on the table age and
push so that the legislation that wehave on this issue became reality today.
(37:08):
We see when a government concentrates allits power, all its capacity, all
its privileges, that it believes ithas with a majority in Congress and runs
over society then and pulls out paramilitarismto fire along with the armed forces,
(37:32):
with the law enforcement, that arethe legitimate users of weapons. It is
not anyone, but the public forcessaying that they will fight alongside civilians or
civilians alongside the security forces. That, that' s just living here.
(37:53):
We have been living in the countryfor five years that the plebiscite of two
thousand and sixteen left us and thethings that are seeing him explode unable to
re- accommodate. Now that,after the dismantling of the FARK, other
problems grab the national agenda and wecan clearly see that they were not that
giant coconut or at least they canno longer be at this time. Now
(38:14):
that we have filled our headlines withthe murder of leaders and social leaders,
as well as of the combatants whosign the peace accords, questions that are
actually very old about what a stateis or what it represents, but above
all how much it measures or shouldit measure, are gaining new prominence.
When we talk about peace, we' re not just talking about stopping,
(38:35):
about shooting, which is enough.We' re talking economics history and geography.
We are talking about territories, theirhistorical needs, their emergencies and the
demands that were not met by thesigning of a truce. Peace could not
simply be a covenant. It hadto have a map, because Colombia has
a map full of holes and omissionsand mountains and jungles and plains. How
(39:01):
the State Presence understood the Constitution ofone thousand nine hundred and ninety- one
and how the Colombian State seems tounderstand it today, after five years of
signing the agreements of the Teatro Colón. Highlight that the Constitution of the 1990s
gives us some guidelines. It recognizesus as peoples, but also, above
(39:22):
all, as human beings, becausebefore we were not recognized as black peoples.
As human beings. We were onemore thing, no, and it
is still that you recognize us asa scenic people and as human beings,
sentient, thinking and part of society. But we have to look at a
number of things, as an anxietiesthat we have suffered for the most part
(39:45):
in the context of the armed conflict, there are many other damages that are
suffered and that always require being articulatedby the Constitution of the ninety- one
so that our rights are not trampledon. And here I speak to you,
for example, the law fourteen forty- eight you remember. I know
there are victims in the country.And if I go to the subject,
for example, of sensual violence inthe context of the armed conflict, where
(40:07):
more than thirty- two thousand victims, and if I go to the percentage
speaks more than thirteen percent black womenvictim of sexual violence. Then let us
say how conflict has been embedded inour peoples, in our roots, in
our surroundings and our bodies have beenused as an end to war. And
(40:28):
yes, yes, very good.The Constitution of ninety- one allows me
to have arguments to defend myself.It allows me to say listen look,
I am also from Colombian society,I am also the sentient human being,
so respect my right and recognize thatwhere yours end mine begin, where mine
begin. I' m missing,but there' s a lot of stuff.
There is still a need for moreeducation, more employability, decent housing
(40:53):
for Black people, because we,as black peoples, say the largest families
are Black, indigenous, but mostlyBlack communities. The problem is that the
power structure has not changed. Andthis, then, may sound a little
subversive and may sound a little yes. That as a revolutionary, but it
(41:19):
is true pitifully, if we beginto look back and see who have been
ruling the country, we still seethe same surnames, the same structures,
the same gamones, the same lindajesthat we want to call in some way
in the territories, which are theones that have been ruling and have been
sequentially following in power. So manysay it' s clear that the National
(41:45):
Front is over, but we perpetuatedit. It' s this way of
alternating power or alternating power between them, and I think that makes a little
bit of that dead end, ofseeing in those who sign the, in
whom they enter politically to compete withdifferent ideas, we continue to see enemies
there pitifully. That' s notgonna change him any prostiction. We,
(42:09):
in the Public Prosecutor' s Office, in my time as procurator, organized
six summits of social dialogue. Inthe summits of social dialogue was seated Doña
Lina Moreno de Brie de Vélez,with Timochenco, was the president of the
Democratic Center, with the president ofthe common former guerrillas, former paramilitaries,
the social organizations of the country,the entrepreneurs who were fundamental. At the
(42:31):
summits and in an almost unlikely way, we drew six consensuses that were the
result of a two- year work. Six agreements on diversity and recognition,
citizen participation, rural reform, educationalreform in drug trafficking, signed by a
completely diverse country. And I'm not talking about this that year.
(42:52):
I' m talking about October lastyear, that we delivered those documents.
So I think that if you givethis a little bit of reflection with those
who know who have made the sevenproposals that you make at the National University,
for example, the ten proposals thatMINGA makes, for example, to
talk about the reflection and deliberation ofa social group that wants to be stigmatized
(43:13):
by violence and so on, butthat has sat down to make proposals for
reform of the country. If youput all that together, you' re
going to get ten general questions aboutthe ten reforms that you need columbian health,
education, justice, the rural,the regional. So I believe that
those consensuses are possible to achieve themprecisely when we get to that point where
(43:36):
there seems to be no other wayout, that that is the dramatic thing
about going back to extremes, oran authoritarian system that is going to try
to solve social problems with law ofpublic order, or a populist system that
is going to only try to createempty illusions for citizens, for example,
the absurd, fiscally unsustainable cost ofa number of reforms that are not travel.
(44:00):
And that' s what it's good for in college. I
believe that the university of balance,the University serves as a vehicle of dialogue
and if we look at the platformsof social dialogue that there was in Colombia,
there is a lot of consensus thatcan be consolidated and that told him
who the citizenry in the urras.So I think those possibilities exist for the
sample what happened in the' 90s. We are not talking about the fact
(44:22):
that this has not happened in thehistory of Colombia. Even the meeting of
Mr Laureano Gómez and Mr Albert Llerason the Spanish coast when the National Front
threw itself. That' s it. They were killing liberals and conservatives.
We' re getting out of adictatorship and someone said stop on the way.
Let' s sit down and talkLet' s hear each other out.
Let' s understand the other,let' s get to a rope
(44:45):
and everyone was talking about agreements,but the key to knowing procedurally, how
we' re going to get tothat body somehow. Yes, I think
that basically there was always talk andwith the part it was always discussed,
that the nerve point of the negotiationwith this armed group was the hard one
reform, a rural reform that allowedthe redistribution of the land, that has
not been achieved in all the republicanlife of this country. And we all
(45:07):
know that if we go back likethis, because that was the struggle between
liberals and conservatives and it was thestruggle afterwards between these guerrillas that later demobilized
in the fifty- seven struggle forland, and we still talk about the
same Techno so, in fact,the Constitution left us many gaps that were
not completely filled. But also theissue of political participation. Note that the
(45:30):
peace agreement with it contains six points. The first in comprehensive rural reform,
which is where we have not yetmanaged to settle that debt. And today
we see in the Colombian Congress andin power in Colombia, an important sector
of politics and that represents the interestsof farmers, ranchers and landowners who are
(45:51):
against that rural reform, so muchso that none of those articles have passed
through Congress and none of those reformsthat are interviewed in that article. At
that first point. Second point ofthe peace agreement with the parties is democratic
openness, openness which means, letus say, or is seen on several
points. One of them was thebestowal of the crucifixions on the ten crules
(46:14):
that are there today. That wasfulfilled. The status of the opposition was
fulfilled, which was something we were. We were being owed the political system
and that was the one that wasregulated and today is being said to be
in compliance. But look at thecurules for the victims. We are still
how many years after the signing ofthe agreement in a political dispute, because
(46:36):
there are sectors that refuse to allowfor another type of representativeness in Congress.
So if we only talk about thosetwo points without talking a little bit about
the third and fourth, which alsohave to do with the issue of the
solution to the crops of their smartones, which also goes through the agrarian
issue and the issue of not chasingthose who grow coca crops, because coca
kills do not hurt, or whatdoes harm is what man produces later with
(46:59):
that coca leaf. And so,as we have always been bent on a
fight against drug trafficking, which iscompletely proven to be useless. But we
are still under the aegis, let' s say, of the policy of
the United States in that sense,because there are things that remain unsatisfactoryly unchanged
(47:19):
and I believe things that the agreementpasses a mere amount to which they should
have been fulfilled in the Constitution,or which are not fully developed in the
Constitution, or which are articles thatthe Constitution has but which were not and
have not been developed by the legislatureduring all these years, and so we
do continue to have some unfinished batteriesthat, hopefully, the peace agreement signed
(47:40):
with the Parks is meant to remainin the bloc of constitutional, that is
to say, that it is partof our Constitution and that three governments are
obliged to comply with and implement thatpeace agreement. This one is already coming
to an end and well, weare not going to go into the details
of the balance sheet that has notbeen implemented so much by this government,
but I think that has already beendiscussed enough. We would have two more
governments left. So I think thatpart of the responsibility of the citizens and
(48:05):
cities of Colombia is to think verywell what kind of governments we are going
to choose in the future that willallow us to think about what this agreement
that is there has developed and endsup complementing what the Constitution could not complete.
But I say to my children,You didn' t get to see
that country in peace, perusia pivotmy granddaughters see it or the frozen promise
(48:39):
is a production of sound capital forcapital, public communication system. Today with
the voices of Ever Bustamante and García, Alejandro Ramele, Achilles Arrieta Gómez,
Octavo Safra, Roldamos, Sr Luis, Alexander so Shan dramandú Soy y Holanda
(49:02):
Perea, Fernando Carrillo, Flores,Sandra Borda, Guzmán, Cancielena Marquez,
Mena Mossenor Héctor, Fabio, Emao, Alfonso Gómez Méndez, Juan Carlos Es
Guerra, Portocarrero, Antonio Morales,Ribeira, Research and interviews by Vivianna Bello
and Pablo convers En. The interviewswere coordinated by Jorge Martínez and Fernanda Rojas
(49:23):
and conducted by Cristiano Hernández, MaríaAlejandra Cuestas in the production, Nisian González
in the narration edition by María AlejandraCuestas and Santiago Rivas. Our image is
the work of Laura Goldstein. Networksof assistance, production and realization thanks to
the digital team led by Jaime Barbosaand made up of Camila Velandia, Felipe
Laverde, Nicolás Peña, Nicolás Rodríguez, Sebastián Figueroa, Stephan and Jaramillo,
(49:45):
Laura Pava, Mavi Torres and ManuelBorna, Dirección General de Santiago Rivas.
This special was made for television inthe Alliance with the viewer, from whom
we released some audios for some episodesof this podcast. So thank you very
much. He used this episode.Please share it capital public communication system
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