Promesas Congeladas

Este capítulo trata sobre debates y discordias, sobre reformas, de las que restan y de las que añaden. Como hemos venido recogiéndolas, empezamos hablando sobre todo aquello que se le debate a la constitución, los vacíos que se perciben, tras 30 años de tenerla como hoja de ruta.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
There must be the village presentations.We proclaim the new Constitution and the promise
of compromise. I believe that whatwe are seeing on the streets today is
shouting that a rotation in the powerelites committed to the mandates of the Constitution

(00:32):
is needed. That rotation can comethrough several paths and through different parties.
It does not necessarily need to bea left- wing or liberal scheme.
Political forces are needed. I repeat, rule with the Constitution in hand.

(00:57):
If we do not have government commitmentsnot to cheat the Constitution so as not
to evade its mandates, we canhave the best text that nothing will happen.
So my conclusion is that governments areneeded in line with and in direction

(01:19):
of the mandates of the Constitution.From ninety- one, and these mobilizations
are surely indicating to us that thenext generations that could be seen in the
year two thousand twenty- two.I hope so, but these generations on
the street should put their lights inthat direction. We need governments and a

(01:47):
new policy, new social sectors atthe helm of the State in line with
the mandates of the Constitution. Itis not an intangible constitution, it is
not that it is a widow ofdemocracy. It may be subject to reform,
as it will surely be necessary tomake adjustments to it, but the

(02:12):
backbone of that Constitution remains a mandatefor the future and is the constituent moment.
Societies have constituent moments, they havemoments of transformation. The most important
constituent moments in Colombia' s historyhave been the plebiscite on December 1st of
a thousand nine hundred and fifty-seven, which created the National Front,

(02:32):
the first baz that women voted inColombia. Moreover, that is very surprising,
one tells young women as a teacherthat only sixty- two years ago
women are subject to political rights.But that was a constitutive, momentous moment.
The second constituent moment begins with theattempts to expand the Constitution of nuñez
of 1, 800 eighty- six, which reaches the seventh fafeleta and the

(02:55):
elections in the year of nineteen hundredand ninety, when the constituents are elected
and the process begins. The greatconstituent moment of the one hundred and fifty
days that, as some professor says, were the one hundred and fiftyéns
of an alternative government, unrepeatable forColombia And we are living a constituent moment,

(03:15):
a much more important moment to goback, much more in history,
much more serious than the outbreak ofthe April nine of forty- eight in
Bogotá, because it is fifty daysof national unemployment. It is the rupture
of dialogue and it is the defectionin the streets that has no social answers.
And I think it' s agreat constituent moment. And that somehow
assimilates the battle of the young inthe ninety- one with what must be

(03:36):
the battle of the young in thetwo thousand twenty- one. It was
up to me, for one reason, to advise the Chilean constitution process in
recent months at a university in theUnited States and I told the Chilean students
when they asked me, well,we left a constitution that would tear down
the construction of Pinoche, which isobvious as a political result that will leave

(03:57):
the young people in Colombia. AndI really believe that what you have to
leave is the social development of theConstitution. These are the ten major reforms
that Colombia has not made in thesethirty years, because some forces have stepped
in to prevent the social development ofthe Constitution. We would not have had
these problems, obviously all exacerbated bythe pandemic. If the social rule of
law, which began to take itshead in the early years of the Constitution

(04:21):
of the 1990s and one had beenrespected if by the life of the rulings
of the Constitutional Court and not onlythere would have been a Congress that would
have made the social reforms that Colombianeeds, then we are looking at that.
I believe that the great legacy thatnew generations can leave today as we
left it thirty years ago in ourgeneration, a new Constitution is a socially

(04:44):
developed constitution without having to touch theConstitution of the ninety- one. About
that one could say a lot ofthings and look at it from a lot
of different angles. I, whoam optimistic, highlight the positive aspects.
Someone was saying how it could besaid that the Constitution created a new country.

(05:04):
If you look at what we areexperiencing right now, if we are
experiencing a particularly difficult situation, butthe picture is to a large extent different.
We recognize each other. We recognizeeach other' s rights. There
are no impositions that used to bein the past. It seems to me

(05:27):
that people are aware of the existenceof a Constitution, the existence of the
rights and duties that that Constitution imposes. The mere fact, for example,
that you have changed the world onthe basis that, before a thousand nine
hundred and ninety- one, ifyou wanted to get a Constitution, you
had to go to a specialized bookstoreto buy it. From one thousand nine

(05:49):
hundred and ninety- one, itwas perfectly normal for the Constitution to sell
it on the streets to talk aboutconstitutional issues with whom this is driving a
taxi, for example, with thedriver of a bus or with a passer
- by. There is a dialogue, there is an exchange of ideas that,
in essence, is the implementation ofissues that the Constitution brought to the

(06:12):
ordinary life of Colombians. The NationalConstituent Assembly and the Constitution of nine hundred
and ninety- one are portraits ofColombia taken from an angle that until then
was unprecedented. It is an agreement, a series of agreements reached with work
devoted to dialogue, a series ofjoint decisions that gave us an idea of
how urgent it was at the timeto replace this Constitution of war and states

(06:35):
of emergency, segregation and enmity.However, no one expects it to be
an eternal, much less perfect agreement. That snapshot of the political and social
moment that the country lived in thelate 1980s and early 1990s portrays a country
that is no longer. And yet, the Constitution resists precisely because it was

(06:56):
a shared dream that responded to theneeds of the moment, but the country
was posed on the basis of whatit should be. That is why this
chapter is about debates and disagreements,about reforms that remain and which they add.
How we' ve come to pickthem up. We begin by talking
about everything that is debated about theConstitution, the gaps that are perceived after
thirty years of having it as aroad map, for example, the issue

(07:18):
of justice. We are in avery serious situation currently facing the issue of
justice, the Constitution of ninety-one, created the prosecutor' s office
and created a constitutional basis for changes. For example, it created the Constitutional

(07:40):
Court, which used to be simplya chamber within the Supreme Court of Justice,
to oversee constitutional control over acts ofgovernment and presidential decrees. Here a
Constitutional Court was created that allows forgreater independence from legal instruments and presidential decrees.

(08:07):
But we did not follow that pathand today we have a serious problem.
That is why the Cartel de laToga scandal, the very high corruption
that exists in some sectors of thejustice system, leads Colombians to distrust the
application of justice. Unfortunately, andlet' s say around that we need

(08:28):
to. I would say that nota new Constitution, it is a development
of the norms adopted in the NationalConstitution. I think we should say these
things. We need to refocus them, because in Colombia, every time we

(08:50):
have a small crisis, we immediatelysay that the problem is the Constitution.
The Constitution must be resolved in anotherway. And that' s what they
' re right about. The foundationsare laid for agreements to be reached in
successive Governments. For me something thatneeds to be reviewed a lot and that

(09:13):
I think deserves reform and that Ithink is what pervades corruption in this country.
Is that the way judges are elected? Is that the way the prosecutor
chooses? Is it the way theoffice of attorney is chosen? The way
all these people are chosen who aregoing to make the dignitys of these organisms.

(09:35):
I believe that there is a needfor constitutional reform in terms of independence
from the choice of the people whooccupy these mechanisms, because I believe that
corruption lies there. It is logicalto me that if the President elects the

(09:56):
prosecutor, chooses or places a thirdparty he proposes, because obviously and I
am President of this country and Iam going to elect the prosecutor, basically
so chooses the Congress, because Iput a third party that is favorable to
me. And there I think itis corruption, because that person who makes

(10:18):
himself bequeath or who chose him fromthat eternal proposal, because somehow he is
going to be forced to be investigated, because I believe that, because we
see what we see now, nota prosecutor, a prosecutor' s office,
a defender' s office totally draftedby the executive body. If I

(10:41):
would say that in relation to theelementary rules of modesty policy, in politics,
for example, a rule on campaignfinancing, which is key to differentiating
campaigns and politics, is the cepticwell of politics and the source of all
the corruption of politics. There isanother that one can give in, and
it is the electoral powers that theHigh Courts have. I believe that in

(11:05):
that we can say that it hasbeen a failure that has been presented because
again politics, bad politics has takenhold. About that. Then we came
to think of an admirable Congress thatcame after the constituent that made the right
decisions and it turns out that thishas not happened. We came to think
that the independence of the control bodiescould be maintained, and we all know

(11:26):
that this has happened at least inrecent months, because the Chief Executive virtually
took over all the control bodies.So, but again, look at you
who are problems of political culture,you are problems of the day- to
- day politics, of how politicsis made in Colombia, that this is
what needs to be transformed and thatis not a constitutional problem and that the
different social sectors understand that it countsis a scenario, with a constitutional context

(11:54):
and that in that context we canagree to develop the initiatives of the different
economic and social sectors of Colombian society. I believe that there are a number
of aspects that have not yet beenharmonised. On the one hand, territorial
order. I believe that, asa nation, we have not yet defined

(12:16):
the really model of a state ofsociety that we have in relation to territorial
planning. Similarly, there are institutionalflaws and, in addition, too frequent
amendments to the Political Charter. Wecarry more than fifty modifications in too short
a period. So it seems tome that there are still fundamental aspects,

(12:39):
especially of the structure of the State, that have not yet reached a consensus
on the part of society. Theanti- corruption consultation of the year two
thousand eighteen obtained about twelve million votes, although it did not achieve the threshold

(13:00):
of approval established by law became asignificant political fact, but it came to
Congress and the newly possessed Government atthat time, did everything possible to ensure
that the mandates of that consultation didnot materialize and so we can go a

(13:26):
little further back and we will finddifferent mechanisms of citizen participation, anti-
mining consultations, consultations in favor ofthe preservation of natural resources, including recall
processes and mandates of mayors or actionsto redirect the budgets of the territorial entities

(13:52):
that are the object of participation bodiesthat are carried out in these instances,
but that, at the time oftheir concrete, are denatured, are disarticulated
and are disauthorized by the political classthat, pierced in the mechanisms of representation

(14:13):
in Congress, in the Councils orin the Assemblies, have not lived up
to the mandates of the Constitution.Suddenly. The young people of thirty years
ago were very focused on the issueof political participation and made great achievements.
But, as I said, thatConstitution was not able to touch the economic

(14:35):
structures of the country and the youththat is rising today is turning around job
opportunities, food security food. Theyare turning around what were the voids of
the Constitution of the year ninety-one. Relatively. It relatively served to

(14:58):
modernize some sectors of the State.I believe that the role of the Bank
of the Republic in fact, forexample, was strengthened, the historical tradition
of the Bank of the Republic,because it was very prudent, although it
had the power, at the requestof the governments to issue currency. The

(15:22):
Bank of the Republic is now anautonomous, independent body whose decision- makers
are different from those of Governments.In that regard, there was a modernization
of that instrument. There was undoubtedlyprogress on the territorial issue of municipal governments,

(15:43):
departmental governments. Of course, therewere also very interesting things in the
area of territorial planning that transferred thatcompetence to the municipalities, but we fell
short of national decisions on territorial planning. Justice has not been modernized. Unfortunately,

(16:11):
control bodies have not been sufficiently modernized. Beyond the will that has had
such or such a prosecutor or contralord, let us say, they remain apparatuses,
very pachydermal, very heavy, verybureaucratic, that do not respond promptly

(16:33):
to concerns about corruption, about,say, fiscal or disciplinary shortcomings on the
part of public officials. There isa weakness there and modernization has not been
enough there. Undoubtedly, let usalso say that modernization in the relations between
the three powers, between the executive, between the legislative power and between the

(16:57):
initial Juno power has not progressed veryquickly. For what, to make it
more efficient than the joint work betweenthe three branches of public power? What
is enshrined in the Constitution is theobligation to work collaboratively among the branches of

(17:18):
public power. This has to beworked out, because it often becomes a
hook sack, which produces an inputinto the decisions promoted by the executive vis
-à- vis those of Congressand judicial decisions. That has to make
it much more harmonious, much moremodern. Unfortunately, justice has been much

(17:44):
politicized in recent years. There isa loss of confidence of citizens in general
in all three branches, especially inthe legislature, in the judiciary as well.
Unfortunately, the loss of confidence andtrust in the executive has been increasing.
Let us say what that means notthat we have to adopt a new

(18:07):
Constitution, but that we develop,within the framework of the Constitution, the
necessary instruments and agreements, if possible, some of them for the life of
referendum. Let' s do it. The roads, the tools, the
instruments are there. The possibilities dependon us, the citizens and, of

(18:29):
course, the leaders, the politicalparties, the social organizations. We must
create that new situation, that newcontext, and bring the country precisely to
a strengthening of its democracy. Ibelieve that the only constitutional reform that would
allow as a little to revive theconstitutional text of the ninety- one,

(18:52):
which is battered by many constitutional reformsand overflowing exercise of power by the Executive?
It would be a reform that wouldallow the timing of the selection of
control bodies to be repositioned, soas to generate more independence from the Executive.

(19:12):
And we have to do something aboutCongress. I think it really is
the stone in the shoe of allthis that is happening. If it is
the Congress of Colombia that is absolutelycopied by clientelist and bureaucratic interests with very
few exceptions, then it is nota political actor that responds as neither to

(19:32):
social interests, not even of thetendencies of the political parties, but of
the personal bureaucratic interests of each parliamentarian. Something has to be done with that,
because that is what has made itpossible to pass through the constitutional reforms
that have battered the Constitution of ninety- one. But if you set yourself
the Constitution of ninety- one,you have the mandates that people claim today
on the street. I don't think so for a constituent national assembly.

(19:59):
A constituent National Assembly is very dangerousright now, with the political forces
there are, I don' tthink we' re ready for that.
I believe that the greatest call forsocial mobilization that remains in the Constitution of
the 1990s is the implementation of thepeace agreements. I think those say in
terms of social justice, which wouldbe more important than, of course,
there are a lot of other thingsthat start, because the money of education,

(20:23):
of health, of justice, becauseit doesn' t go into all
the pockets of the corrupt, whichis that easy, that cliché is that
basic. It' s we havebudget, we have institutions, we have
roads. But it doesn' twork, because if there is a cancer
that takes on both the Constitution ofthe 1990s and the Constitution that they put

(20:47):
on, then it is not feasibleto fulfill the constitutional postulates with a political
class committed, with itself and notwith the people. That' s what
I think, because I think aconstitution is always a dream of a society
and I don' t think thenineties are any different. As I was
saying, at that time I wasstudying Law and part of my career I

(21:11):
studied it with one Constitution and partwith the other. So now with the
new one. Is to tell youlook this completely changed. It has to
change society, it has to changethe state. Obviously, not all the
promises of that Constitution have been fulfilled. That. Yes, we need to
be very clear, but I believethat the hope must be maintained that all

(21:32):
conflicts must be handled peacefully through democraticchannels. So, perhaps, for example,
this whole issue of social outburst isbecause the political system is not working,
because the mechanisms are not working,democracy is not working. That'
s what needs to be checked out. No, then, why representative democracy
is in some way in crisis.No, and it' s the citizens

(21:56):
who finally take to the streets.And today, yes, and there,
of course, an invitation to alla door open to all people to continue
to exercise their political rights by helpingto build the Constitution, their rights,
its meaning and its scope for theconstituent was clear and in that matter,

(22:23):
on that side, there was nogreater difference with the previous Constitution. It
was, in other respects, theindispensable guarantee of the right, first of
freedom of expression, second of theright of assembly, of the right of
association and, within them, ofthe right to demonstrate, of the right

(22:45):
to protest. These rights must berecognized and guaranteed in all circumstances. It
is also true now that they mustbe exercised within the framework of the Constitution
and the law. The right toprotest may not include the right to throw
stones at the police or to burndown a commercial establishment, whatever it may

(23:07):
be, or to knock down amonument or paint a monument. That cannot
be part of the right to protestin any way. A distinction must then
be made between yes and where andwhat not, and from where, what
the task of the security forces shouldbe in relation to the exercise of that
right, what the task of theGovernment should be. The government, of

(23:30):
course, has to listen, becausethe protests are taking place and the right
of association and freedom of expression sothat there are those who listen to what
is being said, that for whatis being claimed, those claims that are
being made. That' s fundamental. I think it is even though it
is not expressly set out in therules. The obligation to listen and take

(23:52):
into account what is being heard isimplicit in the Constitution and in our legal
system. All this we have toconsider so that meeting yes, expression yes,
protest yes, demand yes, demandsyes, within the framework of the
Constitution and give yes. I believethat the Constitution expanded the picture of participatory

(24:15):
democracy. Then that had never happenedin Colombia. We have always been in
a model only representative democracy. Undoubtedly, it was a breakthrough, but it
goes back to the same thing.The problem was the legislative development that led
to the failure of such mechanisms tobe effective. So let' s say

(24:38):
for each of those referendums, plebiscitesand so on, it' s almost
impossible to make them. I mean, there are so many requirements, so
many conditions that really lead to stimulatingthe functioning of direct democracy. The Constitution
of the 1990s is still a Constitutionthat is attuned to rights, which can

(24:59):
profun which gives many tools, wehave seen during the protests and which has
great potential to be carried out additionally. I also believe, as a final
reason and many have already said so, that I invite even the critics of

(25:19):
the police who read articles eight totwelve of the National Police Code and will
see how the police have to actreasonably weighted, always giving rise to negotiation,
education, self- control and self- regulation. The rules already say

(25:40):
everything they have to say. Thefight isn' t on paper. The
fight is in bringing those rules toreality. I have been a bit Evangelist
of the thesis that the police mustleave the Ministry of Defense and to give
it credit, it was the thesisof General Naranjo' s father, General

(26:04):
Oscar Naranjo, who was also directorof the Police since the eighties. He
proposed an administrative department, as insome way in the United Nations thesis on
this subject, where the police werein a technical organization of coexistence and citizen

(26:26):
security. For what, because itis that the army has a different structural
formation than the army. It's for combat, to defend sovereignty at
borders. Instead, the police arethe friend of the citizen or the municipality.
That would be very nice. Todayit' s not so much but

(26:48):
today normally in this park you seetwo police women looking after the children.
It' s in the image thatI wanted Colombia to have the cop and
you understand me. It' snot a question of changing their uniforms in
blue green. True, honestly,it is not the change of habit.
The habit didn' t go tothe monk. It might help, but

(27:11):
he didn' t trust the pondo. Those are the claims made. Now
let' s talk about reforms.We didn' t have to wait long
to see the Colombian political class.Wanting to transform the Constitution that with so

(27:33):
much pride is displayed government after governmentin all scenarios, in an already classic
gesture of making ostentation of that whichwe despise, that it has moved to
the peace agreements with the FARDs andto the aspiration of an anti- corruption
statute that almost failed in a gralrequired to see it turned into reforms.
Some of the constitutional progress has beenreversed by reforms and others have been made
in keeping with the spirit of theso pompously called Magna Carta. The Constitution

(27:59):
certainly does not stop at reform,but it retains its spirit. That Constitution
remains exemplary. Okay. It mustbe said that the Constitution has been the
subject of fifty- five reforms,many of them true counter- reforms,
not all against the spirit of theConstitution, and I would not be second

(28:22):
to say that all these reforms havedenatured the spirit of the Ninety- one
Cartel for a reason, because theConstitutional Court has on many occasions withdrawn reforms

(28:42):
or parts thereof that are not inline with the backbone of the Charter of
Fundamental Rights, separation of powers,respect for public freedoms, etc. But
no doubt there have been reforms thathave had the character of restoring the previous

(29:04):
conservative order, such as, forexample, those promoted by the government of
Alvaro Gomez, Alvaro Uribe Vélez.One reform that he proposed very early at
the beginning of his Government was toestablish the enthronement of a kind of state

(29:25):
of siege within the Constitution. Thisreform was approved by Congress and declared unenforceable
by the Constitutional Court. A secondreform, which was approved by Congress absolutely
disturbing, was that of the immediatere- election of the President of the

(29:49):
Republic. That reform has several characteristics, but I mention two. The first
is that the Supreme Court found ininvestigations that it advanced against those who,
on behalf of the Government, promotedit in Congress who had been approved by

(30:14):
fraudulent gifts offered by the Government bythe famous political jidis and condemned a number
of government officials who promoted it,such as the Minister of the Interior or
the Secretary- General of the Presidency, and ordered that copies of those decisions

(30:41):
be certified to the Constitutional Court forits consideration. The Constitutional Court said that
there was no longer a possibility tostudy whether that reform proved in two thousand
four was spurious or not. Butthe reform caused serious damage to the balance
of powers and to the institutional architecturebuilt in the 1990s. In such a

(31:11):
special way to allow the immediate extensionof the presidential term was to unravel the
system of balance of powers created bythe Constitution of the ninety- one.
In the two thousand and fifteen,a constitutional reform was approved, abrogating the

(31:33):
reform of two thousand and four andestablishing the prohibition of presidential reelection, unless
it was done through a constituent assembly. That immediate re- election reform was,
in my view, perhaps one ofthe most disturbing and aggressive reforms against
the integrity of the Constitution of the1990s. There are others that I think

(32:00):
are in the direction of the Constitution, such as, for example, the
incorporation of the jurisdiction of the InternationalCriminal Court when it comes to investigating universal
crimes against humanity or war crimes thatwere not covered by the Constitution of ninety

(32:21):
- one because the International Criminal Courtwas established in one thousand nine hundred and
ninety- eight. There are fivereforms that seem to me to help with
the implementation and the Constitution, whichare the reforms of the peace agreements.
In the 16th and 17th years,the creation of the special justice of peace

(32:45):
was approved. The sixteen special peaceconstituencies, a reform of article 22 that
reiterated the prohibition on civilians being ableto replace the security forces in their institutional
missions. And two more reforms.These reforms that allowed the Far women to

(33:07):
return to civilian life were made withoutthe need for a constituent assembly. They
were made within the framework of theConstitution of ninety- one. In such
a way that there are reforms thathelped to full effect. All that has
to do with the decentralization and autonomyof territorial entities has been in the direction

(33:31):
of subtracting resources from territorial entities.Reforms have been made to some aspects of
the Bill of Rights that I personallyam not convinced, such as the social
security reform that was made in theGovernment of Alvaro Uribe to open up the

(33:52):
possibility of social protection systems with recognitionsbelow the legal minimum wage. In the
Government of Pastrana, a reform wasapproved that modified article fifty- eight of
the Constitution on the social function ofprivate property to please an international treaty with

(34:17):
the Government of Great Britain to changethe name of Bogotá to Santa Fe de
Bogotá. Neither does it take awayfrom nor does it put into the Constitution
of ninety- one. The reformof fiscal sustainability has enthroned a neoliberal concept

(34:37):
in the management of state public finances. For example, the reforms they have
done in economic terms to me havedone harm. Are these reforms that have
been to favour certain economic sectors?That is why we now have this situation

(34:57):
in financial terms. Today, thecountry is thinking financially to favour certain specific
sectors. We have seen all thesereforms in terms of the energy mining system,

(35:20):
which have been harmful to me.Of course, we have been there
fighting so that the issue of reforms, for example, the Mine Code,
does not advance. Well, therehave been different constitutional reforms, more than
fifty, as I say, manyof them with no greater significance than one.

(35:44):
What he sees in a fund is, as we say, the division
of competition between the nation, theterritorial entities. The economic issues. Let
us not say the creation of somany districts, because that is more,
the background is economic. No.So, the vast majority of reforms have,
say, those implications, major fundamentalrights reforms, there have not been,

(36:06):
that is, they are very specificreforms, that is, we have
the essence of the Constitution of the1990s and one on fundamental facts, fortunately,
has been preserved. What has changedthe most is the question of the
structure of the State. So,issues such as re- election, issues
such as reform of the justice system, topics such as the investigation of defendants,

(36:32):
the implementation of the accusatory penal system, that is, the majority of
reforms have nothing to do with fundamentalrights. They have to do with adjustments
to institutionality. And I think that' s where we have the problem because
we haven' t finished defining whichmodel state we want and what kind of
institutions. And that' s whywe didn' t leave them. Let

(36:52):
' s just say that Maturen andwe' re constantly reforming them, thinking
that with that we' re goingto solve the whole thing. There have
already been political reforms. As Itold you initially, the Constitution of the
1990s and one had enshrined a formof election, for example, of the
legislative branch that was called quotient andresidue, and the idea of the conscious

(37:16):
and residue and of lowering the requirementsto become a party of political movement was
that we could have, therefore,a plurality of ideas and a plurality of
voices and that we should leave behinda little the legacy of the National Front
of Liberals and Conservatives. What happensis that it went into his hand in
the ninety- one and the requirementsfor becoming a party and movement were so

(37:37):
low and, in fact, theelectoral formula, because we ended up having
about eighty political parties. In thetwo thousand one there was a constitutional reform,
a political reform, and there havebeen others in the two thousand fourteen
and in other years. I don' t know if I' m saying

(37:58):
exactly the years, but I'm close enough, to try to correct
that iron of that first formulation ofthe Constitution of ninety- one. However,
I believe that today we still haveto ask ourselves whether we do not
really need a reform that changes politics, because when you look, for example,

(38:19):
at polls, people are not believingin institutions. They are not believing
in the legislator, they are notbelieving in the political parties. So let
' s say there' s adiscussion about whether constitutional changes would be needed.
It does about it. Some voicesare even saying that we should become
a parliamentary regime. If that werethe case, then it is up to

(38:40):
us to give us a new constitution. It touches that cannot be done through
constitutional reform, because it did stayon paper for perhaps two, for two
situations. One for what has beencalled the chatarization of the Constitution, that
is, gradually that of the mountainof the articulated of the Constitution, which
was a guaranteeist and which was awareof the historical problems of the country,

(39:04):
which has in some way been dismantled. That, on the one hand and
on the other, because the Constitutionitself left aside things that would have been
able to guarantee the social, politicaland economic change of the country that were
not touched. Some of them touchedeach other. I am not at all
a total critic of the Constitution.It seems to me that they have destroyed

(39:27):
it and more in these last governments, where the separation of powers no longer
exists, which was a fundamental basisof the Constitution and the constituent and where,
because the rudiments of democracy have beenshattered. It is not true,
but in the sense of origin,for example, it can be criticized that
the constituents of the 1990s and onedid not address the fundamental issue of democracy

(39:52):
visually, which was the electoral system. The electoral system was virtually untouched.
If it became a guarantee with nationalminorities, with the visibility of sectors that
did not exist, it allowed theadvance of society in terms of sexuality,
divergences, diversities. But the fundamentalissue to be able to change the country,

(40:15):
which was the electoral issue, shouldnot be, that is, this
country has been fulfilling thirty years sincethen. Viviana would have deserved a thorough
electoral reform. The unanticipated electoral reformin the Constitution of the 1990s allowed electoral
crime, clientelism, tamaleism, texismto continue to exist during these thirty years
as a possibility of election and ofboth election and election. So on that

(40:40):
and on other points, because theConstitution of the ninety- one did not
fall short. I think we shouldget back to that. Let us say
to article sixteen of the Declaration ofthe Rights of Man of the citizen of
a thousand seven hundred and eighty-nine, which he said very clearly more
than two centuries ago, and isa nation where there are no guarantees of

(41:06):
rights and separation of powers, ithas no constitution. That is the key
fundamental rights and separation of powers.If there is no separation of powers,
there is no guarantee of fundamental rights, there is no democracy and, ultimately,
there is no Constitution, then Ibelieve it is necessary to go back
to the past and rethink what theDeclaration of the Rights of Man, the
citizen, says in the sense thatthe separation of powers and, above all,

(41:32):
judicial autonomy must be fully guaranteed.That is, without judicial autonomy,
there is no rule of law.Then any attack on judicial autonomy is an
attack on the Constitution. After thetwo long months that lasted the social outbreak

(42:00):
and the mobilizations of the National Parofrom April to June of two thousand twenty
- one, there was repeatedly talkof a new Constituent Assembly to endorse the
demands of the people vis-à- vis the State. It is not
a new discussion, as we havealready said. One of the ideas of
the pair that when they were stillnegotiating the agreements of two thousand sixteen was
that of being a constituent and sevenyears ago, in two thousand nine was

(42:22):
also the idea of oribism in responseto the ruling of the Constitutional Court,
which took the possibility of a thirdperiod ofÁlvaro Uribe in the Presidency.
The editorial line of this series andthe specials of the frozen promise on television
is clear. We don' tneed a new constitution. What' s
more, it' s not desirable. It could therefore be a step backwards

(42:44):
from what was advanced in the 1990Constitution, but we are not a minority.
Here' s the idea of whyit would be worth recognizing us in
our current Constitution or at least trying. I think the last one has heard
some voices about constituents a little asexcited about the constituent moment that Chile is

(43:07):
living. So let' s saywe see Chile, they get excited and
we ask for a constituent assembly.Obviously, if you have some very serious
reflections that this constitutes of this Constitution, you do not agree. For example,
some people with the economic model.Others believe that it has been on
territorial issues that major reforms have tobe made. However, the first thing

(43:30):
to point out is Chile and Colombia. It' s different. In Chile,
it is changing a Constitution that hadbeen born in dictatorship. No.
I believe that this is the placewhere one has to be very careful,
because to me it gives the feelingthat because of the Colombian santanderist culture,
we tend to associate all the necessaryforms of change with legal change. So

(43:53):
we believe that social change is theautomatic result of legal transformation. We believe
that political change is the inevitable resultof legal transformation. Not all changes begin
with legal transformations. Let' ssay sometimes what happens is the opposite.
It is that social and political changestake place first and then are codified into

(44:15):
institutional arrangements and particular legal arrangements.So I think we have to narrow down
our hopes for that, because partof what happened to us with the Constituent
Assembly of the 1990s is that wethought we were going to inaugurate a completely
different country when many, many ofthe components of our political culture remained intact

(44:38):
despite the legal transformation that the ConstituentAssembly of the 1990s meant. So,
yes, you can change many things, but you can' t change absolutely
everything. I believe that the greatquestion that one has to ask at this
particular juncture is whether the change thatwe are needing at this moment is a
change that can be sought through thelegal and the formal, if rather requires

(45:00):
something different. I think there arecomponents of both natures. Yes, I
think there are legal changes that arenecessary, which do not necessarily require a
constituent, from my point of view, but localized reforms, for example,
that I think the justice sector needslocalized reform, I think representative democracy needs

(45:20):
localized reform so that people can connectmore with institutions and political parties. But
I believe that there is another dimensionof change that we are looking for that
does not go through purely legal orformal transformation, but rather through a commitment
of the political class, with theconstruction of much more equitable social and economic

(45:43):
policies as if to put it intoeighty- year language with a transformation of
the production model. To put itthat way, well, I think I
do more than drug the Constitution,maybe we would have to do a cleansing
of all the laws or many ofthe laws that have been made using the

(46:06):
Constitution to favor certain sectors, disadvantagedthe majority in this country. This is
the normal thing that has been doneto privilege the particular interests of certain sectors,
which is good for everyone to benefit, but it cannot be to the

(46:27):
detriment of the majorities. For me, that requires debugging. I believe that
I too believe that a new Constitutionshould not be made. I believe that
the Constitution must be applied and thatimplies, as I said before, as
a great social pact among all tomake that Constitution a reality. Because today,

(46:52):
the Constitution, for me today,are unfulfilled promises. There are still
many promises that are not being fulfilled. And I think this crisis is evidence
of that. People don' tgo anymore Wait. People put up with
us more stationery, more tramitology,more bureaucracy, more losing the state budget

(47:16):
in bureaucratic corruption and while people arestarving, I think it' s about
applying it. And I think that' s the basic principles. I would
only raise the issue of how theindependence of each body can be maintained so

(47:36):
that, as it would politicize,corruption, it would not go through them
as if those bodies could accomplish theiressential purposes. And if we were to
do what we have, we wouldhave many things to respect and we would

(47:57):
have some better citizens when it isprecisely said that they are not being fulfilled.
For example, environmental agreements are notpossible. They have not been able
to say because there is a speckthat is opposed, but that there is
also a youth and a country thathas advanced in thirty years on the environmental
function. But there are other thingsthat frankly mark too much. But above

(48:22):
all having altered, having altered withre- election, the balance of powers
is the most nefarious thing for thepolitical institution of nine hundred and eighty seems
to me that there is no rightthere. And now to me, for
example, that of life imprisonment andall that seems to me to be something

(48:44):
that, in any case, witha legislative populism, with a legal populism,
is almost progressing to the death penalty. But what' s missing is
the death penalty. In this country, where we prohibit it, there are
no death sentences. But neither,for example, does there exist the prohibition,
in enforced disappearance, of treatment ofdegrading humans, and we must see

(49:07):
what they do in every prison.How it is possible that women, girls,
young women are raped in legal andillegal detention facilities. In Chile,
they are changing a constitution that wasthe product of dictatorship with reforms, but
it is a dictatorship constitution. So, let' s actually say there was

(49:28):
a consensus or at least a largemajority, which was calling for constitutional reform,
for a constituent assembly to change adictatorship constitution. Our Constitution of the
1990s is a Constitution born, forit is for democracy. It is designed
for decomocracy and, as I saidat the beginning, to strengthen democracy.

(49:49):
So these are two different contexts.I believe, moreover, that there is
no such consensus as in the 1990sand one that we really need to give
a new Constitution to respond to thechallenges that currently exist. I really believe
that the Constitution of the 1990s isa political project that is still very valid,

(50:10):
that has implementation problems, that arethe ones that need to be addressed,
that some reform needs to be done. Yes, but I do not
think that changing the essence of the1990s Constitution is relevant at the moment and
I do not think that consensus isforthcoming. I do not see, for
example, that in these marches peoplewere asking for constitutional change. I was

(50:35):
asking for other things that could bepossible from the constitutional draft of the ninety
- one, as well as inthe ninety- one I said that the
problem was not the question of eighty- six, but to apply some of
the rules that existed there. Here, I say the same thing, Yes,

(50:58):
there is a political administrative scaffolding ofthe question of the nineties and one
that shattered the state. But evenmore so, beyond constitutional changes, what
it refers to are changes of attitude, change of attitude of the ruling class.
I am calling on young people,for example, to join politics,
that this street movement now is notnecessarily going to Congress, but that they

(51:24):
join politics and that we have politicalparties, that we have social organizations,
as we had before, strong unions, the National Association of Peasant Users,
Student Movements, strong, that thereis a political regime with political responsibilities,

(51:47):
for example, that do not existtoday, not because they do not contemplate
them in the Constitution. There theyare, there they are, but they
are not fulfilled by the Presidents ofthe Republic. And you don' t
need to change the Constitution for that, because don' t let Congress extort

(52:12):
for the approval of projects that stopthinking that governing is legislating, no.
No. That is why, Irepeat, he was a critic of the
way this Constitution was produced, whichwas two kidnappings the night they signed,
signed a blank paper, signed itout of term, as I have shown

(52:36):
NBSS. Jacobo Pérez Escobar, whowas the Secretary who still lives, I
invite him to be interviewed, whowas the Secretary of the Constituent Assembly.
But in spite of all that,which happened around that, even though they
came to the pressure of the narcos, pressure was put on the narcos who
later had to amend the San Peergovernment by restoring tradition. Despite all this,

(53:00):
I would not be in favour ofmaking the same mistake that was made
in the 1990s and one of thinkingthat the issue of the country' s
socio- political reality is resolved bychanging. The Constitution is a different situation
from today' s We are extremelypolarized and prioritized. Night of yielding in

(53:23):
the prapo series. We spread,we got together to replace a constitution life.
Our institution produced well the civil war, for it was true, in
one thousand eight hundred and eighty-six the conservatives of the liberals and established
and returned the Constitution of one thousandeight hundred and eighty- six, which

(53:46):
was still seent of one thousand ninehundred and ninety- one. In a
thousand nine hundred and ninety- two, for the first time, the Constitution
was the product of the imposition ofone group on another, but a national
sense. That' s very differentfrom today. There they are is raised
Hello. We have a new Assemblyof ninety- one. Right now don

(54:06):
' t stay, but where we' re doing is polarizing and trying to
impose on Alathn' s ideas andin nine hundred and ninety- one we
didn' t do that. Wehad to reach different ones, but we
decided to agree on everything we couldto make a new Constitution. That is
a very important difference, because Ibelieve that these sectors should be invited to

(54:30):
re- read the Constitution in thefirst place. Secondly, the context that
refreshes in the context in which the1990 Constitution was adopted, and, of
course, tell them that the solutionsare not in the text. Solutions lie

(54:53):
in the development of fundamental texts.The constitutions are principles to be developed.
That is why the Constitution of theUnited States does not change it every eight
days or every year. The constitutionalamendments in the United States are very limited

(55:14):
and very few, because that Constitutionis a book of principles and so we
Colombians have to learn to see ourConstitution. The Constitution of eighty- six,
unfortunately, was seen as the triumphof a conservative sector over liberal sectors.

(55:35):
Then it did not solve structural problemsand so, throughout the 20th century
we find every eight every ten yearsmodifications to the Constitution and movements to either
reform the Constitution or adopt a newConstitution. All this finally crystallized in the
1990s and we adapted a new Constitution. But there are perhaps not 100%,

(56:00):
but I would say ninety percent ofthe fundamental principles that Colombian society must
govern in economic matters, in socialmatters, in legal matters, in judicial
matters, in the development of thethree great powers, in the judiciary,
in the legislative branch, in theexecutive branch. There' s the basics.

(56:27):
I think it is a great reflectionthat we have to make around the
Constitution and, through it, seekagreements that commit the parties so that the
necessary reforms are adopted in Congress or, if necessary, you also call a
referendum on certain issues. There's the tool. The tool is in

(56:52):
the Constitution of the ninety- one, that is, that it would be
different in that new Constitution from theConstitution that we have today, because to
see a Constitution with a significantly broaderBill of Rights. I don' t
think so. It seems to methat what was done in terms of rights,
fundamental rights, social and political andcultural rights, collective rights, the

(57:13):
revolution that was to bring to theConstitution, collective rights and the protection of
collective rights by the life of popularactions is key if the dream is to
make it through a Constitution. Inmy opinion, the flaws are not in
the Constitution. The faults are fromthere to below, in the citizens.

(57:36):
The flaws are sometimes in the laws, in the delay of the laws,
in the absence of the laws.The flaws are in the court offices.
In many cases, yes, anumber of changes have to be made,
but a new Constitution, a newconstitution for it to end up then arguing,
that is, in the constituent ofthe project about whether or not we
return to the presidential reelection. Frankly, it doesn' t seem to make

(57:59):
sense to me, which is whatthey have between chest and back. Not
a few of those who argue thatthere must be a new Constitution, a
new constituent, to see if thatfigure is established or restored, which was
perfectly clear that it cannot be partof our political order. AURI. I

(58:21):
think we would have to think muchmore about how we implement the Constitution of
the year ninety- one. Ibelieve that this Constitution is still in force.
We have major developments in the senseof how to implement it. I
do not see the time for anew Constitution, because it could happen,

(58:42):
but in principle I believe that westill have great challenges to put into practice
the integrity of the 1990s Constitution,as we have such strong constitutional control that
it can make decisions that generate debateas to whether or not this is supported
democratically. The possibilities for reform areinteresting because they show that when there is

(59:05):
no counter- reform to a decisionof the Court, there is support,
there is support. I' llgive you an example. In the 1990s,
the Constitutional Court began to talk aboutpersonal doses and from that moment began
a number of reforms and attempts toreform article sixteen to restrict that decision.

(59:30):
One after the other, the reformswere not approved in the Congress of the
Republic. When the Court began tosay whether or not the guardianship is good
for health, again and again theybegan to present guardianship projects to reform it
and make it clear that there wereno guardianships for health. It never happened,

(59:52):
however, if the right to healthwas regulated as fundamental when the decision
to marry was taken to adopt personsfrom same- sex couples. Politicians opposed
to that decision sought constitutional mechanisms tochange and modify it and, however,

(01:00:15):
found support in those who decided politicallyand democratically not to accompany and move forward
with that modification. Then, first, I would say we have a Constitution
that, unlike the one of eighty- six, has not been blocked in
the paths of reform. It canbe reformed. It is even sometimes considered

(01:00:36):
inappropriate that it can be reformed.Then I' d give that first element.
It is possible to make reforms andthere are ways to do it,
if I want to do it,unlike many of my constituent colleagues who will
suddenly scold what I am going totell you, I say if a new
society believes it should have made adjustmentsto the Constitution, through congress or referendum

(01:00:59):
war or through constituent assembly, itis in its right. It is not
easy for the majorities that are neededand the process that is needed in Congress.
But I' m going there,as the Caleños say, to take
the cane with the question if itgoes for a constituent assembly, I,

(01:01:19):
if I want to follow the Chileanexample, half the women. There,
Chile is giving us a very beautifulmessage to the whole world. It is
because who has said, as happenedwith our Assembly thirty years ago, that
there were only four women among seventy- four constituents. Then, if you

(01:01:39):
follow the path of what is calledthe Beijing World Conference, the statistical critical
mass was thirty percent, at leastof the participation of women. Today Beijin,
we have to reinterpret it. It' s half the stake. Why,
then, because more than a thousandColombians or women do Yes, because,

(01:02:01):
among other things, what is tellingone that discourse of rights is that
this discourse does not necessarily come intoeffect when it is majority, that is,
no, we do not have tohave fifty- one percent of the
population according to the existence of thoserights, because part of what the Constitution
of 1990 and one does, thatis, we will also contemplate rights that
protect minorities from sometimes authoritarian outbursts ofmajorities that do not want to recognize them.

(01:02:29):
So that' s a function thatfulfills the norm and fulfills the Constitution
of ninety- one. The pointis that we have gone back in the
political discussion. Yes, because thepolitical discussion at the time was good that
we recognized the rights of minorities,the LGBT population and the indigenous people,
the mu to the women, wesaw that they were fantastic. Today,

(01:02:52):
with the retreat of liberal and democraticideas that is taking place in Colombia and
throughout the world, we again questionwhether those rights if we fully agree with
those rights and centuries want constitutionally contemplated, so, at such a moment of
doubt, my argument is not agood idea to talk about constituent. The

(01:03:15):
spirit of the Constitution of the 1990sis a broadly democratic spirit and the darts
against that Constitution come from both theextreme right and the extreme left and in
that they coincide even with the violentactors that we have in Colombian society.

(01:03:36):
Unfortunately, but here we have acentral axis that has been hit hard,
which tries to be weakened. Ibelieve that in today' s world,
where we have dragged violence for morethan two hundred years, while in the
rest of the world, in ahundred years, there have been three great

(01:03:59):
revolutions that are marking the new courseof humanity. All that was generated with
the atom Einstein' s theories,the technological revolution, the genetic revolution are
the three great revolutions that are goingto completely change the lives of human beings.

(01:04:20):
While that change takes place 100 yearsin the world, in Colombia we
are still slowed down by 200 yearsof violence. That' s unacceptable,
that' s inconceivable, that's troglodyte, that' s backward.
That has nothing to do with development. And the most serious thing is that
there are political sectors that continue todemand that. Going back can' t

(01:04:45):
be like this. We have tohave legal instruments that are harmonizing with that
scientific technological revolution that has taken placein the world over the last hundred years,
and that is why we are goingto find the possibilities for all Colombians.
A different Constitution must be given atthis time in a comprehensive and constituent

(01:05:10):
manner. I would give an additionalargument to say that perhaps this is not
the time. In the 1990s,as I said earlier, we had just
a confrontation between the people of thepolitical system with strange forces who were almost

(01:05:30):
trying to disarm institutionality, and thatwas part of what helped to see a
Union right now. The conflict isnot internal. The chances of not having
such a wonderful constitutional moment that itis to have Horacio Serma in unison,

(01:05:51):
Álvar Gómez Hurtado and Antonio Navarro Wolfjointly proclaiming the Constitution of the 1990s and
one heir of the Liberal Party,of the social protests, of many of
the battles that had had to befaced against the conservative tradition that was represented

(01:06:14):
in Alvarogon, a great politician andjournalist who, moreover linked by his family
to the newspaper the century the sonof Laureano and the third Antonio Navarro,
who was part of the emes ninegroup that had until recently kidnapped alvargó released
me if he has used the haste, but well, I would say that

(01:06:38):
we do not need a new bleed, but modefizaciones of the current one and,
above all, to develop and applyit well Social State of Law.
That' s what he needs.We know that it is not as simple

(01:07:02):
as reading the Constitution, let alonebelieving that everything can be solved on paper.
That is precisely why we have obviouslydisagreed with the idea of a new
Constitution, because the battle to havea country more similar to what we dream
of how to bridge the abyss thatseparates us from the country that we were
promised thirty years ago should not befought on paper, so as to begin

(01:07:25):
to comply with what the State andgovernments are supposed to commit themselves to every
four years. Well, I thinkthat in general, we Colombians all have
a certain nostalgia for our society tobe like him, but as it should
be in terms of rights. Itsurvives violence, let' s say as

(01:07:46):
a permanent factor in the social lifeof Colombians. It is regrettable, but
I believe that we need a muchmore participatory society, much more acus direo.
I believe that one of the greatweaknesses we have as a country,
as a society, is that wecitizens in general are not very respectful of

(01:08:15):
the rules. Here we must strengthenthe commitment of every citizen to compliance with
the rules. I see that thereare Colombians who band Europe to other countries
of the United States and there arevery clear rules, even in urban life,
at the crossing of traffic lights,in the use of roads, and
everyone respects the rules. Here wehave to work hard to respect institutionality.

(01:08:45):
I think we' ve had abig flaw in that. With Colombia'
s education system, for example,the teaching of the country' s history,
the teaching of fundamental values, wascompleted. Retaking this metaphor and quoting
a great Argentine professor, Roberto Carcharelawho says look we are very concerned about

(01:09:10):
changing rights and saying to what wehave rights, what are also the duties
of people, what are the foundationsof our State. But maybe we'
re still missing in the engine room, the place where all that beauty is

(01:09:30):
going to occur. Then I thinkthere' s still some constitutional engineering missing.
Or institutional engineering already of detail andto be concrete. Let us not
only give representatives to the representatives ofthe families, but also take part in

(01:09:51):
the hundreds of the institution. It' s a series of metals. We
give ourselves participative. There has beena lack of health in the laws of
the poor, but it is therethat I live in the nineties. I
think that a common denominator again withthe situation of one thousand nine hundred and
eighty- nine is the great uncertaintyof Colombians in relation to the future.

(01:10:13):
Thirty years ago there was talk ofthe unfeasibility of the country. Today people
don' t know what' scoming. And that' s dramatic.
That in an environment of collapse ofinstitutions, that in an atmosphere of total
distrust towards traditional solutions and with thecrisis and social deficit more altered than ever.

(01:10:34):
That didn' t happen in nineteenhundred and eighty- nine and of
course one can say we had somedemonstrations where there was not broken a showcase
that was the march of silence andit was more of a reflection, of
deliberation of the students put in theuniversities looking for the proposals first to get
out of the crisis And the sefiaballota appears. And after what should be

(01:10:56):
the content of the Constitution, today, the first thing really needs to be
solved is the social deficit that ison the street. I believe that all
these new citizenships, as they arecalled today, are also the product of
the Constitution of the 1990s and oneis a product of the whole new country
that did not have until the ninety- one possibilities of expression and representation.

(01:11:16):
And that is why, more thanever, an alternative of a citizen character
has to be the way out ofthe whole crisis in order, on the
one hand, to be clear fromthe point of view, say, not
necessarily technical, but, from theexperts' side, what are the viable
solutions in terms of ending the socialdeficit, reducing inequality, seeking equity,

(01:11:42):
ending discrimination, when we lack data, in addition to everything that has happened
in the territories, because really whatwe are analyzing in Colombia is almost an
urban phenomenon. But we know thatin the territories, in those 16 months
of pandemic, very serious things havehappened. The absence of the State has
already been a repeated history and,for example, the confinement, the recruitment

(01:12:06):
of the presence of illegal armed groupsis returning us in the time where,
moreover, it is appearing again,as always there latent, drug trafficking,
taking advantage of this situation. Itis clear that and many people say the
seriousness of all this. What happenedin Cali was the presence of armed actors
where there could be already organized crimestructures, taking advantage of the situation that

(01:12:30):
organized crime has always taken advantage ofin Colombia. And that, I think,
is what should be avoided. AndI think that' s deactivated.
It' s like immediate social reforms. It is that they no longer endure
social reforms and social reforms where youngpeople, students, women, all the
diversity of the country must be recognized, that they are the ones who have
encouraged it, that this cannot bea unilateral imposition by the government, which

(01:12:56):
is what I believe, particularly,in En in readmission with police reform.
We all agree that the police mustbe reformed, but that cannot be an
imposition of the executive power of thecitizenry, when we all know that people
want to think about it. It' s a little bit of deliberation.
What is being asked, unfortunately,for what polarization leads to, which is

(01:13:17):
one of the great damage that polarizationdoes is that in polarization, the debate
disappears because things are either white orblack. There are no intermediate situations when
it comes to reflecting on problems.Then polarization or extremism is the antithesis of
deliberation, because one has to beenrolled in one or the other extreme for

(01:13:39):
things to work. And I thinkthat' s what needs to be done.
That' s why I insist somuch on the subject of the role
of the university. I believe thatthe letter sent by the rectors, for
example, looking for greetings to thecrisis, is a very clear signal and
has to be a citizen' sexit. Here the parties only inspire mistrust

(01:13:59):
at this time until they prove otherwisethat there are definitely new leaderships here.
Here are thirty presidential candidates each intheir personal interest of how to get to
the presidency in the twenty- two, where are the ideas that unite Colombia
at this moment, that I believethat that is momentous and I believe that
what must unite Colombia is a wayout of this social tragedy that we are

(01:14:21):
living. And that comes with acomponent of the university, which is fundamental.
I am convinced that the way outis to have that great idea of
how, respecting this Constitution of theninety- one, it uses those reforms
that have never been made on accountof all the obstacles that the traditional political
class has placed on it to dothis. And recently I was told by

(01:14:44):
Costa Mire leaders a few years ago, when you came with those beautiful armored
trucks. And today that easy moneywaste. People said there are the narrators.
Today they say there are the politicians. And that' s very serious
for society. It is the cultureof drug trafficking that invaded the exercise of
politics Colombia is currently going through aterrible situation It is that human rights defenders

(01:15:09):
leaders are on the verge of extinction, we are at risk and we are
at risk for having a different position, for thinking in favor of the territory,
for thinking from the realities of whatwe have lived. And I think
it' s important to strengthen theseterritorial capabilities, the whole structural and ancestral

(01:15:31):
issue so we can start removing thosebarriers. And that is stylman, which
is believed to be that the dayon foot, the black, the poor
in indigenous, the mestizo is theproblem? The problem is not that a
real policy has not been built inaccordance with territorial needs that will allow the
rights of the population to be fullyre- established. That' s what

(01:15:55):
' s required with a hundred killersfanning tables for citizens. That is the
objective of the Constitution. But thelaws that developed those miss participation on the
popular consultation since constitutional challenge and plebiscitethe two mandates the initiative, because a

(01:16:16):
legislative all those things. The lawsthat developed them made them very difficult.
That has been very surprised to workin the reality of the lives of our
two people and I believe that lawswould be needed to facilitate their patrons'

(01:16:39):
participation for participatory demos was the mostreal demortia in the daily life of prelumbious
society. What does the Government dowhenever the international community puts pressure on it
because it does not comply with humanrights? To say, but yes,
I have the constitutional block. Butif my Constitution is one of the most
guaranteed and contentest plans of international rightsand commitments we have had, my problem

(01:17:02):
is not that I do not createhuman rights standards. My problem is that
my State is a weak State,which is not yet in a position to
guarantee everyone and protect everyone. ButI believe yes, I believe in the
rules and that has served us agreat deal to get away with it Every
time we have to go and explainthe reasons why, despite signing up to

(01:17:27):
the international commitment to human rights,we continue to be a country that systematically
violates human rights by young people alsoof Egyptian law and have their candidates.
All that youth that has come outof the street you have to have some
parliamentarians and that' s why weneed the young votes. Secondly, we
are going to have to do anend- of- policy exercise. You
need people with experience, of course, but next to experience we also need

(01:17:51):
youth. We need Parliament, forexample, to be fifty percent of women
fifty percent of men. We needmuch more political plurality. We need the
right to land, therefore, tobe real. We need compliance with the

(01:18:15):
Havana peace process and disagreements is thefirst point, comprehensive rural reform. So
all these things make us foresee thatwe have to work a lot. And
I do believe that if that Congressis not renewed, if that Congress as
it is continues, there is nothingto do, They will continue to turn

(01:18:36):
their backs on the country, Theywill simply continue to mobilize and what they
are killing young people and that theMinister can follow, Yes, he can
go on after, since he hascommitted excellent amount of things. So,
seeing all that, surely the InternationalCriminal Court will act, because in the

(01:18:59):
country they can do whatever they want, because it is super sante the big
and majorities, The voices of thestreet, the young voices of the street,
are saying that progressive rights have toprogress at a faster speed than maybe
we' re going slow, andI think that' s the way.
The way is to engage in mechanismsthat directly affect public policies that help people

(01:19:26):
to participate in both the concrete designof what is happening and its evaluation and
review is already beginning to happen.There are already many more eyes above for
example, the lesmad who arms hisuses them as to use them what his
protocols are. There' s avery large plant. A few years ago

(01:19:49):
we said well, the Constitution allowedthe theory, but no one is looking
and today there are a lot ofyoutubers counting and looking in detail and co
and comparing giving this information. Forus too, what is happening is a
challenge if we have to recognize thatwe too say it. We knew of

(01:20:10):
the needs that were being held back, we knew of the reforms that had
never been made. We know thatthere were many emergencies that had not been
resolved. But this social outburst thathas occurred with the force that has treinted
before and after the pandemic, muchstronger after the pandemic, because it has
also questioned us and made us thinkof something that the Episcopal Conference recently said.

(01:20:33):
For if you have to put soulto the economy is a class of
Pope Francis that put soul to theeconomy? The economy must be seriously reconsidered.
We did not have that development,let us say, developed over the
years, after the constitution of theyear ninety- one. Rather, we

(01:20:53):
are all focused and trying to resolvethe issue of armed condity that continued with
the Far We were all focused ontrying to ensure that the climate of democracy
was maintained. Today we realize thatwe have to strengthen democracy, that democracy
continues to have very great challenges,that democracy is not something definitively conquered,

(01:21:14):
but that it is a construction thatmust be permanently working. If we cannot
say that the 1990s were consolidated ademocracy project that is maintained over time.
We must be working on this democracyproject. We must be questioning whether we
are in a democratic society. Trulythat is a challenge And there, within

(01:21:34):
that we have the enormous challenge ofthinking that democracy touches you with all dimensions,
including the dimension of the solidarity ofpeople, of the possibility of having
access to all the resources of theState. So, in that sense,
we have a Church that has evolved, has been adapting, has been participating
in each of the phases of society. And in this we are making great

(01:21:59):
efforts to get closer to the youngpeople who are on the streets, to
have much more harmony with them.And one issue has to be solved here,
and it is that there really isa lack of harmony between the institutions
and the youth movement for young people. That' s a prayerful drain that
we have how to tune in tothat youthful movement. If there is like

(01:22:23):
a very big break between the institutionalitythat looks, on the one hand,
and the poorest people in the streets, etc, and particularly the young,
who have their eyes focused on thesebig issues. The economy and I believe
that more than failures of the Constitution, otherwise, there are failures in constitutional
pedagogy. It is essential to bringpeople closer to the Constitution, to make

(01:22:48):
the Constitution understand what the Constitution says, as it says, to make it
understand, of course as soon asit is in conformity, it can also
propose constitutional reforms. And from youthe Constitution established something that people usually don
' t know that everyone can submitbills earlier with the previous Constitution, only

(01:23:09):
members of Congress or the national governmentcould present it. Today, anyone can
do it. He does it ifhe comes up with an idea why he
doesn' t put it in abill and he' s going to introduce
it and try to skate it andtry to make that happen. Of course,
special attention should be given to suchprojects by those in power in the

(01:23:30):
Congress of the Republic, which sometimestreats those projects that do not come from
the higher spheres as second. Itseems to me that there are a number
of very important possibilities and obligations tofulfil, that is, the country with

(01:23:53):
which we dream we have to buildit among all the instruments to build it,
we have them. That' snot what it' s meant to
be. It is politicized that greatvital tool in any society, such as
education, Only with democratic texts andcitizen mobilization with more or less clear objectives

(01:24:17):
can lead to democratic institutions. Ihave no doubt that what is on the
street today is a popular citizen youthmovement for the expansion of democracy. But

(01:24:38):
that enlargement does not happen, Irepeat, by undoing the Constitution and drafting
a new one. It happens becausethe current Constitution can acquire material life,
can materialize its mandates and in thatorder of ideas, that is paradoxical one

(01:25:00):
would have to say, thirty yearsafter the Constitution of the ninety- one,
that today what we need is apact in the streets and in the
political forces so that the mandate ofthe ninety- one becomes reality basically focused
on social issues, on economic issues, on the strengthening of participatory democracy.

(01:25:29):
Look, I have a tip thatsurprised me. In these thirty years of
the 1990s Constitution, there have beenmore than 40 million citizens who have come
to the mechanisms of participatory democracy toclaim their rights. But the frustration is

(01:25:51):
that, despite the fact that thesemechanisms have been activated, they have not
been put into operation because the legalrecords that have been under the responsibility of
those of Congress or Governments threaten thepossibility of such mechanisms have a binding character.

(01:26:15):
You definitely have more in the spiritof the Constitution, of the social
state of law, but that rightsreach all the society of Lombiana. There
is the most unbalance, at leastto say, gualdad, at least of
sense, less poverty. And that' s possible if we' re able
to move together in a more oherntway. And again, we' ve

(01:26:39):
made those tables. Yes, yes, I believe several things. In that
Observatory for Democracy poll, they askpeople whether or not they feel identified with
the political share more than seventy percentsay they don' t feel identified with
any. Not that it basically meansthat the channel or what a political party

(01:27:00):
should be, which is the channelof transmission between the citizenry and the state.
That channel isn' t serving.That channel broke down and the place
where we have to fix that isin the structure of the political parties and
it is in the structure that turnsthe decision of the citizens into representativeness.
Then what' s there to dealwith? A study that did contrial,

(01:27:24):
for example, showed that people voteand a week, even two weeks,
no longer remember who they voted for. That is to say, the link
of representativeness is broken almost immediately afterthe vote is deposited. That contrasts with
situations, for example, such asthe one in the United States, where
citizens can pick up the phone andcall their representatives to the House and the
Senate to tell you look at thisissue is going to be discussed. My

(01:27:46):
position on this issue is this.I want you to reflect that position.
That bond is broken in Colombia afterthe candidate is elected. The candidate and
the politician meet again with the citizenrywhen the electoral race restarts. That link
must be restored in some way andit must be improved. Let' s

(01:28:08):
say the channels of communication between citizensand politicians. That' s done through
various things. Closed lists contribute partiallyto that. That had been said by
the electoral political mission, because itmakes it easier for the citizen. Let
' s say the decision structure,it makes it easier for you to identify

(01:28:29):
how your electoral decision translates into representativenessand in that way you can demand much
more. Accountability structures, for example, for what elected officials do to their
electors, are supremely important. Finally, a Minister is part of a Government
that has been elected in a democracy. Then he has to be held accountable

(01:28:50):
for what he' s doing.This accountability structure is almost optional and citizens
are not very involved. Just watchcongressmen make videos, telling things they'
re doing, but there' sno interaction with voters. So those channels
of communication must be rebuilt, andthat can only be done through concrete political

(01:29:10):
reform. I think the other spacewhere we have to work a lot is
social organizations. Social organizations are sometimeschannels of communication between citizens and political parties.
Civil society must also be helped toorganize itself to involve much more.
Indeed, if there was an organization, a feminist collective, a student collective

(01:29:36):
or a LGBT collective, it ismuch easier to demand that that candidate respond
to him, which was the supportof that organization than to go citizen by
citizen demanding things from that candidate.Then we are in a process of strengthening

(01:29:56):
multiple civil society organizations, which Ibelieve is something that requires more than a
legal and constitutional structure. It requiresactivism and social and political organization which is
a process, I think, slightlydifferent. For example, this issue of
the rights of peasants did not appearclearly in the Constitution. It has appeared

(01:30:18):
because of battles we have given frominstitutionality and control bodies, some and because
the Court has paid attention to thoseissues. But, for example, an
issue like peasant women, which isa crucial issue for the development of this
country, recently appears in the people. So you say, I repeated it

(01:30:39):
many times a few months ago.The smoke of war, the smoke of
violence, let us see a lotof things. He didn' t let
us see the corruption, he didn' t let us see the rural inequality.
He did not let us see thepoverty rates that were being lived,
because, moreover, as the violentcame to convince us that they were the
only ones able to make the socialreforms in Colombia, that I believe that

(01:31:01):
is what we have to distort andtoday what we are saying, that today
looks at the point of convergence ofall this. The great national agreement,
the great national pact that we aretalking about right now, is to make
the social reforms that have never beenmade in Colombia. That doesn' t
have a political color. Then let' s prove and especially those of the
right and center, that here theright of the center is able to make

(01:31:24):
social reforms. That is not theheritage of the extreme left. Or it
' s not the heritage of theviolent. With the famous thesis of the
time of President of Tancourt that thereare objective causes of violence and that the
guerrilla was born to seek social reforms? I think that all of that is
behind us and we have to takeaway the violent ones, and that is
their motivation at the moment, themonopoly that they are the only ones capable

(01:31:45):
of making social reforms. I believethat institutionality and having a Constitution like that
of the ninety- one is afundamental starting point for developing that social agenda,
which is again the most important pendingsubject that we have colors. No,
I think it' s a societythat lends itself to democracy. Dialogue
must be constant. Dialogue is tobe constant, that is, we have

(01:32:09):
to learn to respect each other,to look at differences, to accept each
other differently. And that' snot just because of the issue of marches,
that' s going to be citizenculture. That of being something permanent,
that is, the authorities have tolisten to the citizens and I tell
them, because on the subject ofjurisdiction, when one goes to the territories
and speaks to the victims, thereis a lot of prevention with the State,

(01:32:32):
that is, I do not saywith or that it was with justice.
It' s with the state anda loss of legitimacy. Then it
seems to me that that conversation hasto be constant. That is the essence
of a democracy. In other words, the essence of democracy is not elections.
The essence of a democracy is thebuilding of permanent consensus. So this
is equivalent to the fact that therewe already have a navigation charter for the

(01:32:57):
operation where there, for example,what themes in the midst of that achievement
that was achieved marks the revival throughthe Fastral in the two thousand sixteen,
when the issue of the agreements arrivesand that there speaks the topic of the
PD zones of hundred detenta municipality andthat now come the sixteen curules of peace.
I mean, these have been decrees, laws, and regulations that have

(01:33:17):
been going on. But the mostbeautiful thing in Colombia is that it is
the country that has the most laws, but that least fulfills this series to

(01:33:38):
remember and celebrate the miracle of dialogue, increasingly unlikely in a country that has
chosen to shoot people. We understandthat the political constitution of Colombia is a
frozen promise and Colombia a dream thathas been deferred, such as the poem
Harlem by the poet Flankston Hughes.What happens to a deferred sleep, does
it dry like a pass into thesun or is counted as a wound and

(01:34:00):
then its pure stinks like rotten meat, that is, prostrate and sugary as
a sweet syrup. Maybe it justsinks like a heavy load or maybe explodes.
The frozen promise It is a productionof sound capital for capital public communication

(01:34:21):
system. Today with the voices ofever Bustamante García, Alejandro Ramele, Achilles
Arrieta Gómez, Gustavo Zafra, Roldamos, Antonio Navarro Soy y Holanda Perea,
Fernando Carrillo, Flores, Armando Novoa, García, Sandra Borda, Guzmán,

(01:34:44):
Cancilena Márquez Mena, Natalia,ÁngelCaseñor Héctor Fabio, Alfonso Gómez Méndez,
Juan Carlos Es Guerra Portocarrero, AntonioMorales, Ribeira, Research and interviews by
Viviana Bello and Pablo convers In theinterviews. These were coordinated by Jorge Martínez
and Fernanda Rojas and performed by CristianoHernández, María Alejandra Cuestas in the production,

(01:35:05):
Nisian González in the narration edition byMaría Alejandra Cuestas and Santiago Rivas.
Our image is the work of LauraGoldstein. Networks of assistance, production and
realization thanks to the digital team ledby Jaime Barbosa and made up of Camila
Velandia, Felipe Laverde, Nicolás Peña, Nicolás Rodríguez, Sebastián Figueroa, Stephan
and Jaramillo, Laura Pava, MaviTorres and Manuel Borna, Dirección General de

(01:35:29):
Santiago Rivas. This special was madefor television in the Alliance with the viewer,
from whom we released some audios forsome episodes of this podcast. So
thank you very much. If youliked this episode. Please share it capital
public communication system