THE DRONES! with Martin Willis

Martin Willis, an aficionado of the enigmatic realm of UFOs, has harbored a fascination with the subject since his formative years. Initially wavering in his beliefs, his encounter with a UFO in Carmel Valley, CA, in 2007 served as an epiphany, solidifying his conviction in the existence of Unidentifiable Flying Objects. Since that transformative moment, Martin has attentively followed discussions surrounding the phenomenon, maintaining a stance of cautious skepticism tempered by an ever-open mind.
With a firm belief that the truth behind UFOs/UAPs may forever elude us, including the enigmatic stance of governments such as the US, Martin regards the exploration of this mystery as one of paramount importance and unparalleled excitement. His interest in astronomy underscores his conviction that humanity is not alone in the universe, fueling a steadfast scientific curiosity regarding the vast cosmos.
As a passionate advocate for the UFO community, Martin founded the acclaimed Podcast UFO in November 2011, conducting over 600 illuminating interviews on the subject (2024). His expertise and dedication have led to prestigious speaking engagements, including serving as the keynote speaker at the Pine Bush UFO Conference in 2022 and as a speaker at the Shag Harbour UFO Expo in in Nova Scotia, 2023. In 2024, he spoke at the Skywatchers Amateur Astronomers Club in South Carolina, had the role of Master of Ceremonies for the 2024 Annual MUFON International Symposium in Texas as well as the Shag Harbour UFO Expo in Nova Scotia, further cementing his standing within the UFO community.
Beyond his ventures in ufology, Martin is also a distinguished professional in the realm of antique and fine art appraisal, commencing his podcasting endeavors on antiques, auctions, and art in 2009. He has also lectured on antiques, art, and auctions nationwide for over three decades. His multifaceted expertise and unwavering commitment to exploration make him a luminary figure in both the realms of UFO research and the world of antiques.
About Director Darcy Weir
Diving into the chaos of UFOTwitter like a fearless spelunker, Darcy Weir is a documentary filmmaker who over the past two decades has chosen to explore some of the most intriguing topics of discussion today, including UFOs, Cryptids, and even Bitcoin. He has completed over 15 feature-length documentaries on these topics, all of which are available on Amazon Prime and Apple. His goal is to make the world of UFOs more accessible to the general public by shedding light on the subject in new ways. Enjoy fresh conversations with him on Twitter. Join the Twitter Space to share in the conversation.
Links
Amazon: https://amzn.to/3wHv7JJ
Apple TV: https://apple.co/3TlQQ2Q
https://x.com/occultjourneys
  / instagram: darcyweirfilms  
   /twitter and youtube: @occultjourneys  
About Andy Marcial
Andy is a researcher of 20+ yrs who was forced down the rabbit hole after very personal and life changing close encounters which started in Puerto Rico. His entire life, all he has done, is try to understand what he saw and why he went through what he went through. It changed him and showed him that there is an entire reality out there beyond human comprehension. It also drove him to reach out to others like himself because of how psychologically damaging this can be. He also recently leaked three Department of Homeland Security videos to the public, which were controversial, but officially recognized as UAP by Customs and Border Patrol in August of 2023. Andy doesn't do what he does for any other reason than to open the minds of anyone willing to listen and to show those affected by this phenomenon that they are not alone.
Links
  / instagram and twitter: @ny_uap_discussion  
   / youtube: @ufocompilation
 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Two hundred years ago, two thousand years ago. This isn't
going to work.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
She's picking up a massive object in this video. Ships
that might be closed.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
I can sense them in my vicinity, So I guess
I'm just very tuned in.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Balkan head Honcho walks out ear reveal.

Speaker 4 (00:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
The crowd goes, oh, my God. Was to protect the
secrets from the Air Force that were not out there
in public.

Speaker 5 (00:34):
So the storm is coming, folks. The storm is coming
to UFO Twitter, a drone storm to peep precise.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Good evening, everyone, Darcy, we're here and Andy Marciel is back.
He's co hosting in the space Tonight. We got an
interesting show for you. We're going to talk about all
this drone activity that's been happening around the United States.
Yesterday I was informed some stuff is happening in Mexico

(01:17):
and Canada. What's going on? This is weird, you know?
Is it mass hysteria? Is it real? Where are they
coming from? Are they aliens? Are they just man made drones?
There's all kinds of things we can explore tonight. I'm
going to bring in our twit twats here. We got Dale, Dale,

(01:43):
Why don't you take it away, Pastor Dale, my friend,
my men, Let's talk about what's going on and try
to keep a positive message to start off the show.

Speaker 6 (01:55):
Thank you, Darcy.

Speaker 7 (01:57):
One thing I want to start off by saying is
absolutely love your space because it's a respectful space. And
really that's how communication is supposed to take place, where
people respect one another. And I'm gonna be honest with you.
One of the reasons I don't do a lot of
spaces is because of all the conflict and all the fighting.
I've had some good friends hurt with some very mean words,

(02:20):
and so I really think we have to respect one another.
Today's catchphrase is be kind or be quiet. What did
mom used to tell us? If you don't have anything
nice to say, don't say anything at all.

Speaker 6 (02:35):
Be kind or be quiet.

Speaker 7 (02:38):
I was talking to a friend the other day and
they're talking about how things used to be, and he's
talking about really the holiday season, about how the businesses
used to decorate up and the town really went all
out on it, and so he was kind of frustrated.
And then he was talking about how bad, you know,
black Friday has come has become. It's become literally black
and blue Friday. I mean watching people will fight over

(03:01):
the last toy or the last TV or the last iPad.
You know, all to say a whopping one hundred dollars,
And so let me say it again, be kind or
be quiet. Just imagine what our community would be like
if we live that way. The sad news is we're
not living that way. In fact, recently I saw a

(03:22):
post on x that was very disappointing. It was a
meme of two gentlemen laughing, and I think it was
from pulp fiction or something like that. But this person
put the meme up just to laugh at people who
had a different view than he did, people that believe
that maybe possibly some of this is NHI mimicking as drones, and.

Speaker 6 (03:48):
So it was just sad to see someone do that.

Speaker 7 (03:50):
I don't know why they felt like they had to
be little people in the process. I mean, it's okay
to disagree, it's absolutely okay to disagree, but it's important
and how we disagree. Remember, be kind or be quiet.
That's what That's what our moms told us to do, right,
to be kind or be quiet. The thing is that

(04:11):
this person is better than that we all are. Remember,
doing that doesn't make the other person look small. It
makes you look small, and so let's make sure that
we do that. Let's make sure that we be kind
or be quiet.

Speaker 4 (04:27):
Love it.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Great message, Thanks so much, my man. Yeah, we got
a lot out of riff raff on social media. We
got a lot of people that think they're better than
everybody else, or their opinion is the only true fact.
But hey, sometimes you don't know till you don't till

(04:49):
you know. And with this case, with this like mass
drone swarming that's going around all kinds of air four bases,
you know, all around you, Jersey, it's we don't know,
and we're just grasping at straws so to belittle each

(05:14):
other and treat each other lesser. Because of that, no bueno.
I brought my friend Martin Willis into the show tonight.
Martin's been looking into the drone issue. He's been studying,
cramming for the exam because I gave him that task

(05:35):
last minute. But I'm gonna really let Andy, Marciel and
Martin Willis take over the conversation regarding this whole drone phenomenon,
and I will just quickly introduce Martin Willis for people
that don't know who he is. Martin Willis is an
efficionado of the enigmatic realm of UFOs. He's harbored a

(06:00):
fascination with the subjects since his formative years. Initially wavering
in his beliefs, his encounter with a UFO in Carmel Valley,
California in two thousand and seven served as an epiphany,
solidifying his conviction in the existence of unidentified flying objects.

(06:22):
Since that transformative moment, Martin has attentively followed discussions surrounding
the phenomenon, maintaining a stance of cautious skepticism tempered by
an ever open mind. He actually runs his own show
on KGr podcast, UFO, and he's been doing that since

(06:49):
November of twenty eleven. And you know, he's a great guy.
I was hanging out with him in person out in Yarmouth,
Nova Scotia. We went to the Shag Harbor Incident conference
and we had some jokes, and you know, we talked
about UFOs being somewhere in the oceans. Guys, somewhere out

(07:12):
there there's ocean based UFOs. I think he knows what
I'm joking about. But yeah, let's let's bring him up.
Say hi, you can unmute your mic now if you want, Martin, Yeah,
can you hear me? Okay, yeah, we hear you. Good.

Speaker 8 (07:29):
Oh awesome.

Speaker 9 (07:30):
First of all, I want to say, observer of the
first person that spoke or whatever, totally agree with you
on that. And there's way way too many people out
there saying you're wrong. I'm right, you know, painting big
brushstrokes of who someone is or what someone is if
they don't believe what you believe. So anyway, I like

(07:50):
that message a lot. That was a good way to
start the show. Be kind to each other or be quiet.

Speaker 10 (07:55):
I like that.

Speaker 9 (07:57):
And it seems, you know, it doesn't seem like as
been getting any any better, but thank you. I enjoy
being here. And we got to hang out in Washington,
d C. Don't forget that, Oh dude, I forgot.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
We had lunch with Randall Nickerson after laughed about you. Yeah,
taking out those punks at the front of the line.

Speaker 9 (08:16):
That's right, that's right. So yeah, it's an interesting topic.
I want to say hi to everyone, if you have
if I have not seen you in one of my shows,
I thank you for listening tonight and the fact that
you know Darcy is doing anything I'm going to be
involved in if possible. I really respect you, Darcy, and

(08:38):
you're a lot of fun to be with. And I
saw you on your birthday actually, and I try to
embarrass you, but jeez boy, you're a hard guy to embarrass.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Oh, I've been embarrassed since I came out the womb.
My mom's done a good job at that. Thanks man,
you feel at home. So yeah, I feel great when
I'm being embarrassed. So hey, Andy, why don't you open
up the show. Let's talk about the drones. Let's let's
let's go over this meticulously, and then Martin jump in.

(09:09):
We got the cat, we got Uncle Red, we got
Dale think Tank. We can all go at it. Let's
let's see what's going on here.

Speaker 11 (09:20):
Well, my biggest thing is that, you know, like, I'm
seeing a lot of people getting how can you say, worried,
And I think there is a reason to be worried.
I personally don't think that this is I don't think
that this is anything NHI related.

Speaker 10 (09:41):
There's just too much.

Speaker 11 (09:42):
There's too much footage just come out that shows that
whatever this is is clearly man made.

Speaker 10 (09:48):
You have a lot of.

Speaker 12 (09:50):
Uhh, you know, strobe lights and you know, just normal
things you would see on on aircraft that we would
have in disguise, you know, on everyday base. And I
actually spoke to someone that has a lot of information
when it comes to this subject, and they laughed at
and told me, you know, Nhi doesn't need you know,

(10:12):
these kind of lights to versus the skies, which is
we think about its kind of true.

Speaker 10 (10:16):
They really don't need to warn anybody or have these.

Speaker 11 (10:22):
Regulation lights to travel and go whatever the heck they want.

Speaker 9 (10:27):
But pard me, just a second, haven't I heard that
a number of them do not have any lights at all?

Speaker 6 (10:33):
I don't know I was getting.

Speaker 13 (10:35):
I was getting conflicting reports because everything that I've seen
showed the opposite that they were all lit up.

Speaker 10 (10:41):
I mean, some of them were just looked like.

Speaker 13 (10:43):
Christmas trees unless they were seeing some Actually, I just
saw a video that someone recently posted where Chopper was
chasing one and in the middle of them chasing it,
the lights just went out and they basically lost it.
So it's possible that, yeah, there were reports that you know,
some of them didn't have lights on, but most of
the ones that I've seen.

Speaker 10 (11:04):
Posted did have.

Speaker 11 (11:05):
As a matter of fact, I think one of them
that when people were confused with thinking it was a drone,
ended up being I believe it was a military chopper,
if I'm not mistaken. But and some of them, I
think me and Darcy were in agreement that they just
looked like aircraft, you know, like you can hear.

Speaker 10 (11:23):
At the beginning, I thought it was one footage one video.

Speaker 11 (11:26):
I saw it sounded like it could have been you know,
noise in the background, possibly from highway or whatever. But
after really listening to it, we came to the agreement
that it did sound like aircraft, like an aircraft, sound
like an aircraft engine. So I personally don't think this
is something NHI related. Now the impress what I what

(11:47):
I've my gut is telling me I could be wrong,
is that I think there may be someone trying to
use this entire scenario, with the UFO topic being so
you know, discussed and where it's at, that they may
be using it against us in a kind of psychological
worker type thing, like it might be like using it

(12:09):
to their advantage.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
Well, you know, you know, Greer has been posting that
this is the uh, this is the fake alien invasion
that he's been talking about for so long, right, he's
really capitalizing on that. Although I don't agree with him
at all. Uh, that's one person that's capitalizing on this situation.
And uh yeah, I mean I think there is hysteria.

(12:32):
Like guaranteed, some of this stuff that's being seen is
just normal. Like I saw something was posted on UFO
Reddit not too long ago. It was a cessna from
underneath and somebody's taken a video or a picture of
it and they're like, oh my god, the drowns, the drowns,
what's going on? The taking off a New Jersey And

(12:54):
it's like, look at you're taking a picture of a Okay,
well I'll work on it. I'm Canadian, so you know
there is a lot of that. There's mass hysteria to
some degree, but there's also some real stuff. You know,
there's some craft that shouldn't be there, and obviously the
police are observing them, air force bases are being swarmed.

(13:20):
This is legit and it's becoming an issue over Jersey.
So I mean, if who wants to jump up and
speak to that next.

Speaker 9 (13:30):
I can, if you'd like, go for it, But first
of all, I'd have to say that I don't know
if you have followed or have seen this that Jeff
Van Drew was claiming he's a congressman or something. He
was saying that these he got bored from higher ups
and intelligence, that there's an Iranian mothership and that it

(13:53):
was off the coast of New Jersey and released, you know,
launching these drones. And anyway, the Pentagon has come right
out just tonight and said that that is false. They
don't have any information that to just avoid that whole conversation.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, I mean, how would I ran even get across
the Atlantic with that.

Speaker 6 (14:13):
Ship?

Speaker 2 (14:13):
I mean, yeah, come on, what is he talking about? Insane?

Speaker 6 (14:18):
Yeah, but New Jersey.

Speaker 9 (14:19):
I'll talk on that a little bit.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
I just invited you to be co hosts. You might
see that button pop up. You're walking to accept that,
Martin as well, but okay, yeah, but okay, talk about Jersey,
all right.

Speaker 6 (14:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (14:35):
So I just I was contacted today. I put the
last night I talked on my show that I'm gonna
be talking about drones tonight. Hey, and I need help
out there. So I had a bunch of people send
me some things today, and one was I was in
contact with this woman who goes by the handle of
don Fantasia at New Jersey. So she wrote recently posted

(15:01):
this that she just left the New Jersey State Police
headquarters following the briefing of the New Jersey state legislators
relating to the unexplained drone sightings in New Jersey. And
she also added who was there? The governor was not there,
so one we know nothing period. To state that there

(15:22):
is no no incredible threat is incredibly misleading, and I
am informed that all officials have that same sentiment. State authorities,
including the New Jersey sp State Police, are shackled with
what they are able to do. Any interception or takedown
of any of the uas is under the strict jurisdiction

(15:46):
jurisdiction of the federal government. At this point. These are
all her words. I believe military innivision intervention is the
only path forward. There will be no answers in the
absence of proact. The US Coast Guard seems to be
the most likely to intervene. I think that's very surprising
the Coast Guard, that they're the most likely to intervene

(16:08):
with all this. But here's that, you know, I mean,
the reports are just I mean, I didn't realize it
was as many. The first sighting was November eighteen, with
sightings occurring every night since then from dusk until eleven pm,
six or seven hours. Frequencies of reports range from four
to one hundred and eighty sightings per evening. Large drones

(16:32):
up to six feet in diameter, operate in a coordinated manner.
Lights are turned off, making them difficult to detect, appear
to avoid detection by traditional methods. Helic for instance, helicopters.
Radio frequencies not identified as hobbyist drones or related dhs. Anyway,

(16:52):
you know, this goes on and on. She had a
great little report she did, but it's really really puzzling
because if this isn't a government operation, someone is very
very well funded to be able to do whatever it
is or trying to do, and this would have to
be a long term, coordinated effort.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
One just before we go to hands here, Uh Andy,
you wanted to pipe in with something.

Speaker 10 (17:21):
No, No, I would just agreeing with him.

Speaker 14 (17:22):
It's definitely someone who has, you know, access to pretty
decent funds to pull something like this off, especially considering
the size of some of these things that you know,
I mean the size of cars. That's a pretty decent uh,
technology that that's being used for for this.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
So yeah, why don't I play this little clip? This
is actually pretty interesting. Lester Naiir just posted this four
hours ago, not just but uh, listen to this. Let
me know if you guys can't hear it?

Speaker 15 (17:54):
Yeah, can you tell you Kanagon is doing to address
this issue of drumk sightings over New Jersey.

Speaker 10 (18:01):
It's near sensitive.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
Can hear that? Okay? Never mind? It is basically it's
the Associate Press's post from the Pentagon briefing that their
press secretary did, and they're basically saying, one, the Pentagon
is aware of the drone situation. Two, they have no

(18:27):
evidence it's coming from any foreign entity or adversary. Three
they are not military US military drones. Four it's not
an Iranian mothership. So we've covered a lot of that already.
Do you guys want to go to hands andy? You
want to kind of tell me what we're Who's who's

(18:49):
up first?

Speaker 11 (18:51):
I'm not sure if the or Dale had their hands
up first, but one of the two could start.

Speaker 6 (18:57):
And we let Tale go first and then I'll go second. Okay,
thank you?

Speaker 10 (19:02):
Can everyone to hear me?

Speaker 15 (19:02):
All right?

Speaker 10 (19:03):
Yeah? Okay?

Speaker 8 (19:05):
Getting everyone?

Speaker 4 (19:06):
I put a couple of things in the nest.

Speaker 16 (19:08):
I won't go like really in depth and all of them,
but I'll try to go into order. So last January
there was a report alem sewards from BBC News. So
BBC News Matt per Se, I hope I'm saying that right.
He run an article saying R A. F. Lake and
Heath plans progress to bring US nuclear weapons to Suffolk.

(19:30):
And this is with the F thirty five A. And
this was last January twenty ninth, twenty four, so that's
about eleven months ago that there was talks between the
UK and the US government bringing already they already have
F thirty five A, which is a nuclear capable striker.
It's our current stealth fighter. That was like nine months ago,
ten months ago. There's other reports saying that there's the

(19:51):
new new weapons already there. Well, what happens month ago
we already all know the RIF Lake and Heath in
the UK is popping off. Christopher Sharp's looking into it.
Go to an other thing. I posted a video. I
won't watch it, but a video up in from Tying

(20:11):
in Vietnam.

Speaker 8 (20:12):
I hope I'm saying that right.

Speaker 16 (20:14):
But this was in October and twenty ninth, so I
started seeing person I started things picking.

Speaker 4 (20:18):
Up around Halloween.

Speaker 16 (20:20):
There's actually a lot of activity that started off on
Hallly Night globally, so this isn't just US, and not
just the US, not just the UK. One other point too,
I put up another video. I don't have the date
right this second. I do have it in my notes somewhere,
but up in the nest someone saw weird looking orange orb.

(20:42):
They chased after it into a forest. You can look
at this orange, thin glowing. It's not like a jet, it's.

Speaker 15 (20:47):
Not like.

Speaker 10 (20:50):
A drone.

Speaker 16 (20:51):
It just looks like an orange orb. Very you know, anomalist.
That's different than you know, the regular drones. And let
me see what else I have.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
I saw the shootdown video you posted too. Looks like
some dudes walking by, like a classic classic Winnebago or something.

Speaker 6 (21:07):
Yeah, that one.

Speaker 16 (21:08):
So I had another video today that I posted, a shootdown.
That one is a legitimate shootdown. However the date was wrong.
That was from Illinoi's But the one you just mentioned,
that one legitimate and the guy's not commented since then.

Speaker 10 (21:20):
So I think that's just very strange.

Speaker 8 (21:22):
There's no other news from it.

Speaker 13 (21:23):
Too.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
But yeah, I heard there was a shootdown in Jersey.
Can anybody confirm on that.

Speaker 13 (21:29):
I heard that some some drones were actually being taken down,
like some civilian drones couldn't get near to them, that
once they got to a certain distance they would malfunction
and drop out the sky.

Speaker 17 (21:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (21:42):
Yeah, well that seems like that would answer a lot
of questions if if they actually found one of these things.

Speaker 16 (21:50):
Yes, exactly, And then I'll do to like thirty more seconds.
I know we have a couple of other hands. I
won't go to other point. But so these drones are
coming from out of the ocean, you know, quote unquote
drones u AP. They're coming from out of the ocean,
some of them from you know, out literally from out
of underneath the ocean, of trans medium, some of them
being up in the air.

Speaker 8 (22:10):
Over six hours.

Speaker 16 (22:11):
We're hearing reports of like ambiguous or unconventional light figurations,
a lot of strange stuff. So I have some other
points too, but I'll let it go to the other hands.
I'll try to come back later.

Speaker 11 (22:22):
Yeah, let's not let's not forget China does have the
capabilities of trans medium drones.

Speaker 6 (22:29):
Oh yeah, no, that's true.

Speaker 16 (22:30):
I post someone today too, the tall virtual virch sorry,
vertical takeoff and lift. Uh they're and they're actually virtual
like virgile takeoff with drones that go from helicopter to airplanes.

Speaker 10 (22:43):
So there are strange drones out there too.

Speaker 16 (22:46):
But again, the stuff, this stuff, I don't think it's that,
So I post the videos that you can tell it's
it's not that.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
In my opinion, Do you guys want to try listening
to this uh house hearing on mysterious drones New Jersey,
the drone sighting from I guess Washington, d C. It's
happening right now. I'll see if the audio comes through.

Speaker 17 (23:14):
Carry an explosive to destroy a Nashville power substation. We
know that there have been additional incidents of suspicious drone
activity near substations, and I think this is critically important,
especially in the time that we're in where there is
this big push for alternate energy sources, whether it's battery storage,
whether it's wind storage, without really doing the work to.

Speaker 10 (23:37):
Make sure that we could protect these assets.

Speaker 17 (23:39):
In addition to cyber concerns, what physical security risks do
you drones pose to energy sector assets?

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Great question.

Speaker 18 (23:47):
I think payloads are obviously as witness in the Tennessee case,
but you could simply ram a drone into some of
our infrastructure, and we do take a defense in depth
approach and try to add shielding and obtuskate certain targets.
But on top of that, you could also see a

(24:10):
situation and we've seen published cases where you've actually used
drones to enable a cyber intrusion as well.

Speaker 10 (24:19):
Thank you, Chairman, I yeel back, Thank you jentlemen from
New York. I thank all the witnesses for.

Speaker 19 (24:25):
The val Keith Jones is the Deputy Executive Assistant Commissioner
for Air and Marine Operations.

Speaker 10 (24:30):
He has over thirty two years of law enforcement experience.

Speaker 19 (24:33):
Notably, he has helped found the San Diego Sectors War Patrol, Search,
Trauma and Rescue Team and was the principal driver primary
driver of its national expansion. Mister Robert Wheeler, Junior serves
as the Assistant Director of the FBI's Critical Incident Response Group.
His responsibilities include providing expertise and crisis management, negotiations, hazardous

(24:54):
devices and tactical operations, behavioral assessment, surveillance, and aviation.

Speaker 15 (24:58):
He joined the division in July of.

Speaker 19 (25:00):
This year and mister Bragwigman serves as the Deputy Assistant
Attorney General for National Security at the US Department of Justice.
He has spent his career as a government attorney with
legal experience at the Department of Defense, Department of State,
and at the National Security Council. We thank all of
you for being here today. We will now begin with
opening statements. I know that you've submitted written statements as well,

(25:23):
and thank you for that. And if you'll please adhere
to the five minute summary of your statements, We'll start
with mister Jones, you're now recognized.

Speaker 6 (25:33):
Thank you.

Speaker 20 (25:33):
Chairman, good afternoon, Jeremy Flueber, Ranking Member Magaziner, Chairman A.
Meenaz and Ranking Memory tenad are and distinguished members of
the subcommittee. So now are here to be here today
on behalf of US Customs and Border Protection to discuss
the CBP authorities and capabilities dedicated to countering threats posed
by the malicious use of unmanned aircraft system commonly called

(25:55):
uas or drones. Throughout my thirty three year career in
border security, first with US Border Patrol and now air
and Marine operations, I've witnessed transnational criminal organizations or TCOs
and other malicious actors leveraging technology to circumvent US law enforcement.
Recent years, I've devoted significant time to understanding the increasing
UAS threat to border security and coordinating CBP strategic response.

(26:19):
Air Marine Operations is CBP's executive agent for counter UAS operations.
We work alongside our US Border Patrol and Office of
Field Operation counterparts to detect, track and mitigate the threat
of these aircraft along our borders. We also collaborate with
our DOJ and FBI partners on investigations as well as
CBP Innovation, the DHS Science and Technology Directorate, Department of Defense,

(26:42):
private industry to identify technologies that can improve our mitigation and.

Speaker 21 (26:47):
Domain awareness capabilities. I'd like to emphasize three important aspects
of this subject today. First, the current state of UAS
threats to border security. Second, how our critical authorities enable
us to res bond, and finally, the importance of improving
CBP's domain awareness capabilities and technology detect and mitigate UAS threats. First,

(27:09):
US activity on the border is increasing rapidly. During a
recent six week period, CBP sensors recorded more than sixty
nine hundred drone flights within close proximity of our borders.
It is these flights, particularly those in areas of high
illicit activity, that present the greatest threat to the safety
of CBP's frontline personnel, pose a serious collusion risk to

(27:30):
our crewed aircraft, and diminished the effectiveness of our border
security operations. Although intent cannot be derived from border proximity alone,
through intelligence processes, CBP is associated a large percent of
these percent of these drone flights with nefarious activities on
the ground, TCOs have fully integrated US technology into their operations.

(27:52):
Of most concern to CVPS the wide use of drones
to conduct reconnaissance a CBP law enforcement personnel, their locations
and their activities. This technology enables smugglers to guide non
citizens or transport contraband across the border without encountering any
law enforcement. Additionally, to a lesser extent, TCOs have used drones.

Speaker 10 (28:11):
To fly contraband over the border. Most drones have.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
All Right, I'm gonna I'm gonna quiet it down there
for a bit. I think that was a pretty good earfull.
We can come back to that maybe when the FBI
guy wants to talk. But what do you guys think,
I mean it seems like they're kind of overwhelmed, Uh,
the CBP and the enforcement personnel that are dealing with

(28:40):
these Dronesdale.

Speaker 10 (28:43):
Was nice to speak so he can go.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
Deal still there, buddy.

Speaker 7 (28:51):
Yeah, I've noticed a kind of a trend on X
and it seems like there are different camps and will
want to say it's this or it's that, and we're
talking way back beyond the drones, and I think that's
a mistake. I think we need to listen to all voices.
My personal opinion is that it is NHI. They've been around,

(29:17):
you know, we've seen them for a long time. I
don't think they just disappeared because these drones show up.
I believe that they're adversarial tech as well. I mean,
we got to realize that Russia and China are in
the spy game, and so that's not surprising that they
would be. And now the third one is hobby drones.
I mean, they're getting more and more sophisticated and so

(29:37):
that's another possibility. And then I'm gonna go with Andy
on the last one. You know, a false flag operation
we have to be very very careful of. I'm not
saying this what it is, but I'm saying, we need
to be very very careful that we don't just dismiss
something out of hand, because you know, whether they started
this or not, you know, they may look at an

(29:58):
opportunity to Pentagon add they may look at an opportunity
and try to take advantage of it. And so you
know what I'm noticing is the the FBI guy got
up and spoke Congress, He's like, we don't know, we
just heard you know that the Pentagon said that it's
not adversarial tech, and I forgot what else?

Speaker 6 (30:21):
Oh, not government as well, But how do they know.
I'm sad exactly, That's exactly what I was going to say.

Speaker 7 (30:29):
It's like, well, if it's not, and like I said,
they may have shot down some of these things, but
why wouldn't they just come out and say, hey, we
shot some of these down. These are commercial drones, right,
But they didn't do that. So, but my thing is,
let's just keep open minded. Let's not go into one
camp and say, well, it has to be all NHI,
or it has to be all adversarial tech, or it

(30:50):
has to be all just a hobby drones, or just
it's all just this false flag. Let's leap it, leave
it open that it could possibly be all for and
just wait until we have the facts, until we have
the data to really jump into any camp.

Speaker 6 (31:07):
Good point.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Agree, go to hands maybe Andy.

Speaker 22 (31:13):
The Cat, Yeah, I agree with you. Also, I just
wanted to say that historically NHI has been around war
zones or places that where there's a lot of soldiers
or there's tension, and we know that from history. We

(31:38):
know that from Rome, we know that from World War Two,
we know that from World War One, the Civil War,
the Battle of what was it, fourteen twelve?

Speaker 4 (31:49):
I think that's it.

Speaker 22 (31:50):
But so NHI has been around war zones and they've
also been seeing around Ukraine, and it would not surprise
me if it would be both. I've seen videos coming
out of Jersey and I've seen a mix of real videos, planes,

(32:16):
weird orbs fake videos like it's it's like all hands
on deck with with what's going on right now. But
what I wanted to highlight was that there was a.

Speaker 10 (32:32):
It was a.

Speaker 22 (32:35):
Ocean Guard official that came out and was speaking. I
don't know if it was at Congress or if it
was at the New Jersey, the New Jersey building to
basically what he said was that the Coast Guard was

(33:00):
being chased by these drones. It came out of the ocean,
and that they were chased by about thirty forty of.

Speaker 4 (33:05):
These things, chasing a boat.

Speaker 22 (33:08):
And then there was another story that came out where
there was a helicopter trying to rescue somebody and they
were blocked from landing because of the drones. So I mean,
either way, whether it's Nhi or it's Russia slash China,
it's an issue. And I did want to highlight something

(33:32):
that I was told an email from one of my sources,
who's a former State Department official who I used in
several of my previous articles. And basically what he said
is he said it's China. And I didn't put that
out until just today, but I received that about a

(33:56):
few days ago. I didn't even know because I haven't
been checking my email. No, but he's saying it's China,
and I mean that kind of fits with what came
out today. I don't remember the Congress the congressman that
said it, but he was saying that basically, it was
a rand and I want to highlight that just like

(34:19):
the US uses meta materials to create aircraft, so does
other adversarial countries like China or Russia.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, I'm sure they've been working on that stuff for
a long time. They got they got to compete with us, right,
So who's next?

Speaker 10 (34:39):
Ursula? You had, Yeah, your hand up?

Speaker 2 (34:45):
Hey Ursla?

Speaker 23 (34:46):
Yeah, Hey, hey Darcy, Hey everyone. I this has been
a topic for a lot of spaces in the past
few weeks. I think at first everyone, uh, you know,
they wanted it to make sense, but I think in reality,
we don't know it. I mean, it doesn't have to
make sense. And I think that there's probably both drones

(35:07):
and UAP. I've been looking at dozens and dozens of
videos all the time, and there has to be there's
there has I think some of it is n hhi.
And when people say, oh no, I don't believe in
like UFOs, and then that has to you know, like
you just have to go back to like indigenous people's
stories and you know that there's there's facts there, there's

(35:31):
you know, these things have been here and maybe they're
making their presence.

Speaker 10 (35:35):
Known again, and.

Speaker 6 (35:38):
You know there's there's a lot there.

Speaker 23 (35:41):
Just uh, I have a lot to say, but I'll
let someone I'll speak, But thank you awesome space.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Thanks.

Speaker 15 (35:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
Uh, we know we're not the first to talk about
drones here, but we're just trying to get every idea
out there together and just have a healthy conversation about it.
Who's up next? Ken't had his hand up, Kent, could
I mite? How you doing?

Speaker 15 (36:08):
Kurd?

Speaker 4 (36:10):
Can't he Yeah?

Speaker 10 (36:12):
Well go ahead, Chad. Maybe can't one, but want to sleep.
I'll be quick. Oh go ahead.

Speaker 6 (36:18):
Man, can you hear me?

Speaker 2 (36:21):
I can hear I can hear you?

Speaker 15 (36:22):
Man?

Speaker 10 (36:22):
What's up?

Speaker 20 (36:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (36:23):
I don't get it.

Speaker 15 (36:24):
Guys. We're on the virginal World War three. Every country
is on high alert. This does not seem like a
time that anyone would be testing drones over sensible military installations.
It makes much more, just much more pragmatic sense to
me that these things, whatever they are, you don't mean, Darcy,

(36:45):
I think I think that they could be an hi.
But just ask yourself a practical question on the we
we are at the highest state of tension in the
world that we've been in. Ye, will this be to
be trusted tasting dy Air Force spaces?

Speaker 13 (37:03):
It makes no sense, right, unless they're trying to instigate
a situation.

Speaker 10 (37:09):
You know, it could be.

Speaker 15 (37:12):
A foreign actor. I think foreign actor is that is
the least of your concerns.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Thy, Yeah, I agree with you, Kent, And like, you know,
I've had healthy skeptical arguments with my friend Andy here
over the past weeks. Like he'll send me something and
I'm like, that's a plane and he's like, no, no,
it's not. I'm telling you that is a frigging UFO.

(37:39):
It's ANOVNI And I'm like, dude, like I'm listening to
the audio and you can hear the thing landing. You
can hear like the engines. It's not. But you know,
then he's like, Okay, maybe it's something else. The orbs
that people are seeing, that's something else because that doesn't
have a definitive uh you know, shape of a plane

(38:03):
or a drone. So I don't know what the orb
videos are because that's been popping up a lot. I
mean even I just saw one that was posted on Chicago.
There's like a whole bunch of drones flying over Chicago
right now. It's pretty interesting.

Speaker 24 (38:23):
Dale, I think just a quick response to yeah, uh,
you know, you know me, mate, you're not discussed things before,
and you know I'm not I'm not a bullshit Hoist.

Speaker 15 (38:34):
The amount of activity that I've seen going on over
the sky. I'm at in the middle of nowhere in highlands,
so you know, I'm not near an airport, I'm not
near any PC routes, and the amount of activity that
I've seen going on over this place has increased in
the last two years. Pinfold and for some reason, mate,

(38:55):
whatever this is, and with that today down in the
NHR event. On the material science side, I've worked in
some pretty advanced places with some pretty advanced materials. Nothing
compares to what these things can do. And I think
we've got to keep our minds. I can see. For
whatever reason, and I don't know the reason, I don't
profess to know the reason, but for whatever reason, whatever's

(39:18):
doing this, it seems to be doing it to send
a message that we can, at a time when your
world is in its most heightened state, we can tell
and do what the hell we like over your basis
and there's nothing you can do about it. I think
they're sending a message.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
I would agree.

Speaker 9 (39:35):
Can I speak a little bit here, Yeah, I go
for yeah. Well, I mean there's obviously there is an
intent to instigate whatever it is, whoever is doing it
or whatever it is that's doing it. That has to
be the intent, otherwise it wouldn't be in such a

(39:57):
volume and a steady control such situation, you know, following
behind the Coastguard forty seven foot boat there when it
was doing that for all the time was doing that.
There's something being instigated. And now I may have totally
I've been super busy the last few weeks, but I
do recall that there was pictures and please correct me

(40:20):
if this has been proven false of this blue like
orb shaped of supposed landing in a either a military
base or commercial airline airport or something. I saw that
floating around. I never really had any time to look
into it, and I wondered if anyone has any update
on that particular thing.

Speaker 6 (40:41):
Was it just a hoax?

Speaker 22 (40:43):
You're talking about the steer that was landed in a
UK airport, right, is it we're talking about?

Speaker 6 (40:48):
Yeah, that's are.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
Oh that was that was a while back. I think
that's that's definitely more debunkable. It's just like a photo
mixed with an old video that only shows the object
high up in the sky. It could be a balloon. Uh,
this is probably going to piss people off. The fact

(41:10):
that I've said this, but that's my assessment of that
that situation. What what do you guys think, Well, they didn't.

Speaker 10 (41:18):
You didn't you say it? That video was back from like.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
From June June or.

Speaker 10 (41:24):
Something like that.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
Yeah it was older.

Speaker 6 (41:27):
Yeah, yeah, I've never saw the video.

Speaker 9 (41:29):
I only saw an image of a blue object, like
an orb shaped object, but it appeared to be a
few feet or something off the ground and next to an.

Speaker 22 (41:40):
Uh there was Yeah, there was a video that was
going around, but it looked like it was AI.

Speaker 4 (41:47):
And that's the issue too.

Speaker 22 (41:49):
I mean that people are taking uh sure, taking advantage
of this and and looking for clout and clicks and
whatever else, but they don't realize the actual like seriousness
of this, whether it's a NHI or it's a adversarial
a tech. I mean, if we don't know what's in
our skies, then we're not safe.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah what if?

Speaker 4 (42:11):
So what if this is what if this is China?
What if it has a payload on it? What if
it has the ability to cause destruction to cities or
to main people.

Speaker 10 (42:23):
I mean like.

Speaker 22 (42:25):
And on the other side of things, I mean, what
if it's a hostile n HI that's getting ready to
attack and is just doing reconnaissance right before the attack.
So I mean like this needs to be taken a
lot more serious than than it is. And I mean,
this is happening worldwide, It's not just in the US

(42:46):
and the UK, which makes me think that it is
it does have something to do with an Hi and.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
So Dale, I think you mentioned yesterday that there's a
Canada in Mexico drone sighting that's been happening recently recently.
What's that all about.

Speaker 6 (43:06):
I just sent it to you. It was just someone
had sent the link to me.

Speaker 7 (43:11):
Basically showing that there were people talking about sightings drones
in both countries. I did want to come back a
little bit on what the cat said, and that is,
you know, China's a possibility, in Russia's a possibility on
some of this, but to me, and I don't know,
I haven't heard anybody say this yet, so I'm going
to say it now. I think Russia is the suspect

(43:34):
number one. And the reason why I say that, look
at how many drones we sent and we gave to Ukraine,
and so this could be payback in their own way.

Speaker 6 (43:43):
Now they're not doing anything.

Speaker 7 (43:44):
At least that we know of nefarious at least, I
haven't heard of any reports where these drones are attacking.

Speaker 6 (43:51):
In any way. Maybe they are, but I haven't heard it.

Speaker 7 (43:53):
But anyway, I just wondered, you know, I've never heard
anybody say that, but we sent all these different drones
over to Ukraine to fight against Russia, and then here
we go a couple years later, and all of a sudden,
the drones are all over here.

Speaker 6 (44:05):
And so anyway, something.

Speaker 7 (44:06):
We should at least be talking about, or at least
speculating about totally.

Speaker 13 (44:10):
I think I just find it amazing how they technic
they claim to not know where it's coming from.

Speaker 10 (44:16):
Like, really, with.

Speaker 11 (44:16):
All these acts in the air, s satellites that can
pinpoint when a rocket is being launched from wherever, you
may tell me you can't track a swarm of drones.

Speaker 10 (44:27):
Like it doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
It's mental. H I just wanted to read I wanted
to read this. My friend Barnett Parker, who's a reporter
for Como TV. He posted not too long ago, drone
enters airspace above Naval Station Earle. Response from Naval Station
EARL after US Northcom said to contact Earl directly about

(44:53):
drone activity. We are aware of the reports of increased
drone activity in New Jersey and Monttmouth County and are
actively monitoring the situation. We have received reports from our
neighboring communities and law enforcement partners regarding drone activity near

(45:15):
the installation over the past few days, and can confirm
at least one instance of an unidentified drone entering the
airspace above Naval Weapons Station Earle. So that's disconcerting.

Speaker 3 (45:32):
Desmon had his hand up, go ahead, Desmon, I think
the most logical answer to what we're seeing, at least
in New Jersey is is that this is a it's
a d D classified operation. So you're not going to
get anything from the FA, you're not going to get
anything from the press, You're not going to get anything
from anybody admitting to that.

Speaker 25 (45:52):
Just like anything else is classified in this topic, it's
always deny, it doesn't exist, or it's not happening, it's
nothing to worry about, an Opsusekate.

Speaker 10 (46:02):
But.

Speaker 25 (46:03):
Likely this is this is some kind of operation being
performed for some reason by the d o D. It's
it's the only logical explanation for this, at least the
drone part of what we're seeing. I can't speak for
the orbs or any of the other stuff, but the
drone part that we're seeing in New Jersey area, that's

(46:25):
what makes sense for this. Just I've I've racked my
brain about what this all could be. If it was
foreign actors in the United States, these things would have
been handled quickly. So that leaves and it's not foreign actors,
it's it's internal. And if it's internal, of course we're

(46:47):
not going to be told about it.

Speaker 11 (46:49):
I feel like I feel like it's I feel like
we're we're we're so cocky in the sense of, you know,
the position of where we are and on the world,
you know, separated by oceans, that we don't believe that
these things can happen to us.

Speaker 10 (47:05):
That's what I think, which is why we're not prepared.

Speaker 7 (47:07):
You understand what I'm saying, Can I can I come
back on that one just a little bit. I understand
as far as reference to New Jersey, But to say
that it's a d D operation, we have to ignore
the seventeen days that Langley was shut down. And so
it's got to be like I said, that might be
one aspect of it, but that can't be the only thing,
because there's no way that the DD is.

Speaker 6 (47:28):
Doing a classified operation at Langley.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
Langley was months ago, and what was what was seen
there is far different than what was seen the same.

Speaker 4 (47:38):
They were discussing drones as well.

Speaker 8 (47:42):
Drones is a very overly broad turn.

Speaker 6 (47:44):
Right.

Speaker 8 (47:45):
You can say drone for something that looks like an airplane,
that shaped like an airplane, but flies like a drone
at four hundred feet, or you can say drone for
a predator drone that flies at ten thousand feet. Right,
that's a very overly broad turned.

Speaker 26 (48:01):
Right.

Speaker 3 (48:02):
What we're seeing in New Jersey is not what was
seen in Langley. The videos are completely different. Yeah, what
is describing it the same way? It doesn't mean that's
the same thing.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
Do you want to lay out what is more commonly
seen over Jersey?

Speaker 3 (48:18):
It seems to be that these are well lit, airplane shaped,
small in size, unmanned aerial systems probably roughly the size
like they're saying of a car that are flying probably
around five hundred to one thousand feet at most, well lit,
and in operating in some kind of pattern, looking for

(48:43):
something for some reason.

Speaker 6 (48:45):
Up there.

Speaker 3 (48:47):
Now you have Langley, which is a very interesting place anyway, Right,
most people don't know that Langley shares a research center
with NASA. And also you have Camp Perry, which is
thirty miles in orth of Langley, which is where literally
the CIA's farm is, you know, there's and they have

(49:07):
their own airstrip and runway there, and they do classified
operations there and classify training there. So, I mean there's
there's a lot to that that you have to sort
of look at and understand with with the region itself.
But what is happening in New Jersey specifically right now,

(49:27):
I don't believe is related to what was going on
in Langley. Even though the term drone is synonymous in
both places, they're not the same drones. What's going on
up in New Jersey is over the public, and it's
very public.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yeah, it's very strange.

Speaker 19 (49:41):
Right.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
You wouldn't expect CIA or you know, some nearby Air
Force base to be running drills over civilian population.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
I'm not I'm not insinuating that this is a drill
or a training or any of that. I'm I'm saying
they're performing in operation. They have a reason and for
doing whatever they're doing. I don't know what that reason is.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
Apparently even the Air Force, the CBP, and FBI don't
know either.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
They're not going to admit to knowing what it is.
If it's a classified operation, it's a classified mission. They're
not going to go on the on the record to
the press, to anybody and say, hey, we're doing this,
but it's classified, all right.

Speaker 16 (50:24):
So we have we have a National Security Act and
we have posse comatatas, so the military, US military cannot
I cannot actually do anything on US soil it's a
military base. And also we have the Nasal Security Act
that prevents any domestic we use on the actual American citizens.

(50:46):
So basically I was in the military.

Speaker 4 (50:49):
Exception.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
I was in the military and I flew in helicopters
over the United States all over the place.

Speaker 16 (50:56):
Man, But but did you did you block a metaback
helicopter for preventing picking up somebody in New York? This
things like a week ago, and it prevented somebody getting
Wi Fi out of there. So that's actually multiple federal
aviation felonies that you're not allowed to block.

Speaker 8 (51:12):
You know, metavaduage f picking people up.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
The DD does not operate under the FAA regulations in
FAA Airspace. The d o D is their own airworthiness authority,
and they operate under their own authority, not the FA's authority.

Speaker 8 (51:24):
It's completely different regulatory schemes.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
Okay, all right, guys, So it's it's getting a bit
bickery here, and I love the dialogue back and forth,
but can we maybe go back to hands just some
other people that haven't had a chance to speak.

Speaker 10 (51:40):
Yeah, bet kid hard her hand up?

Speaker 6 (51:44):
Hello here you okay?

Speaker 24 (51:47):
Hi?

Speaker 26 (51:48):
Yeah, So I have a first, first hand witness account.
I'm in South Florida, and yeah, I had been watching
what's been happening in Jersey just from afar as just
like of you know, just doing on X and all
the social media. And then on Friday night, I was
with my daughters and I just glanced up to make

(52:11):
a left turn and I saw like a grain orb
that was like moving and weird patterns. And I just
took up my camera and started recording and I pulled
and my daughter saw it too. I pulled over and
I stood in an open era because you know Florida,
we have a lot of trees here in South Florida,
and then I saw I immediately noticed that they were the

(52:32):
same objects that were being shown from Jersey. It was
like kind of like a diamond or triangular shape with lights.
Two of them were floating into a big white orb,
and the orb was so bright that it looked like
a flashlight and I just focused in my camp my
phone and it started to like emit something from it,
and then that same orb started to morph into a craft.

(52:59):
After that, Yeah, and after that, it's been I've been
seeing them everywhere. I see the orbs right before sunset
they start to show up and at street level up high.
I have a live stream that I did yesterday and Facebook.
It kind of wanted to semi viral because it shows

(53:20):
that big light of it looks like plasma or energy
pulsating and it kind of would come out of nowhere,
like kind of like out of thin air.

Speaker 6 (53:30):
And it would grow, grow, grow, grow too.

Speaker 26 (53:31):
It was so big and there was a smaller or
right above it, and I kept saying it was like
it's energy source.

Speaker 6 (53:37):
I was just talking like whatever.

Speaker 26 (53:39):
Came to my head, and a lot of people that
watched it that are in Jersey they said that that's
exactly what they've been seeing, that there's always an orb.
And then it seems to morph into a craft. So
what I've seen is the orbs, the triangular or diamond
shaped craft.

Speaker 6 (53:55):
And the ones that that to me, they looked like.

Speaker 26 (53:57):
They're either projecting a hologram of second airplane or their cloaking.
But this does not seem like any type of technology
that I've never seen anything like that. It transformed with
my own eyes, and the light that is shined that
felt like a big flashlight.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
It was blinding wow.

Speaker 26 (54:16):
And it and it was intimidating in a way.

Speaker 9 (54:19):
I felt like it knew that I was there.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
Incredible. I Uh, let's unpack that a little bit more.
I think we can all ask a few more questions
and we can figure out what that's all about. Thank
you for sharing that. But I need a longer slot
on KGr. I think Martin might agree with me. Here,
he's a KGr guy. I've got ten seconds to go

(54:44):
off live with KGr. We're going to keep the space open,
keep chatting, let's pass around ideas, keep it civil, and
thanks for tuning in again this week. Folks running out
the music.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
Yeah, two hundred years ago, two thousand years ago, this
isn't going to work.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
She's picking up a massive object in this video. Ships
that might be closed.

Speaker 3 (55:17):
I can sense them in my vicinity, So I guess
I'm just very tuned.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
In Bulkan Head Honcho walks out ear reveal. Yeah, the
crowd goes, oh my God. Was to protect the secrets
from the Air Force that were not out there in public,
so