April 30, 2025 • 24 mins
With 97 percent of Americans already banked, acquiring new customers means convincing them to break existing relationships. So how can financial institutions stand out when banking feels increasingly commoditized?
Live from CBA 2025, host Matt Snow from Upstart is joined by Kurt Lin, Co-Founder and CEO from Pinwheel as well as Dennis Chira and Wei Ke from Oliver Wyman to tackle the question: “How do we create a 2x, 5x or even 10x better experience that delivers genuine value to customers?”
From leveraging direct deposit switching to power seamless onboarding to designing subscription management services that truly simplify financial lives, discover how next-gen technology and open banking solutions are reshaping the fight for loyalty. Tune in to learn how banks, credit unions, and fintechs can differentiate on more than just price—building deeper relationships and winning in the battle for primary account status.
Live from CBA 2025, host Matt Snow from Upstart is joined by Kurt Lin, Co-Founder and CEO from Pinwheel as well as Dennis Chira and Wei Ke from Oliver Wyman to tackle the question: “How do we create a 2x, 5x or even 10x better experience that delivers genuine value to customers?”
From leveraging direct deposit switching to power seamless onboarding to designing subscription management services that truly simplify financial lives, discover how next-gen technology and open banking solutions are reshaping the fight for loyalty. Tune in to learn how banks, credit unions, and fintechs can differentiate on more than just price—building deeper relationships and winning in the battle for primary account status.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey everyone, Matt Snow from Upstart with another episode of
Leaders in Lending live from CBA twenty twenty five here
in Orlando. Today, I'm joining with Dennis and Way from
Oliver Wyman and Kurt from Pinwell. Thank you guys for joining. Yeah, absolutely,
maybe we can go down the line with quick introductions.
Tell me a little bit about what you're doing today.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah. My name is Dennis Tchura.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I'm a principal in our retail business making practice at
Oliver Wyman. I focus primarily on consumer financial needs as
well as deposits.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
And my name is Wake I'm a partner with Oliver
Wyman retovininess banking practice. I do a lot of work
on product proposition, innovation, pricing, sales marketing.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
And I'm Kurtlin. I'm copeender and CEO of a company
called Pinweel. We help built soffward to make it easy
for bings to win and establish primacy. So things like
making it easy to switch your drive deposit, help manage
your bills, eventually switch your bills, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Great, and so I sat in on the session earlier
the three of you were a part of. In terms
of primacy and defining that in how it's important and
how to help banks establish that. So I was thinking,
you know, maybe I'll start a little bit more provocative
and like, is primacy even important today if you think
about open banking and the choice consumers have, Like, is
that still a goal worth pursuing for a financial institution.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I mean, I'm happy to start on that one. I
think that's a really fair and important question, and I
think the answer generally is yes. But then also depends, right.
I think there's an option where you don't need that
relationship right, where instead you just focus on as cost
effectively as possible selling a particular product. But then you
become a pure commodity. And I think that the real
question when it comes to primacy is how much of
(01:39):
the value do you want to actually create that is
not simply about a commodity. How much of it's actually
about serving the needs of a consumer more holistically, how
much of it's about your brand about basically your value
is about other things that you provide to the customer,
wherein you know, the decision of whether or not to
choose to work with you isn't just about the price,
it's about something else.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Yeah, yeah, fair, Yeah, I think there's a there's a
math question here because at Dennis in the earlier session
was mentioning that maybe like ninety seven percent of the
Americans are actually banked. So at the end of the day,
you know, the banks are out there and the fintech's
out there essentially stealing each other's clients, and primacy is
a way of deepening that relationship, and really, you know,
(02:18):
that's that's what's probably going to food of growth going forward.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah, I think it's hugely important. And the way I
think about it is you're trying to build a relationship
with that customer and ultimately get them into deeper and
deeper into your ecosystem. Right, So the example I always give,
I think actually Dentnis had mentioned earlier, is you look
at Apple, right, like maybe you start with an iPod
or an iPhone and then eventually, you know, you get
a MacBook, then you get some air pods, and all
of a sudden, like you're in this ecosystem where everything
(02:43):
works fluidly because you really like bought into the brand
ethos and the product suite, and as a bank, like
it's a lot easier what should be a lot easier,
I should say, if you have a credit card, a
checking account, a savings account, hopefully even with a broken
or something, all with the same FI instead of having
one of those at four different places, because then they
can really understand your holistic financial life and serve you better. Sure.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah, and that really resonated with me, along with many
stats and the presentation. But thinking about the reduction and
the number of banks, So if there are so so
much fewer banks today and the consumers have choice, like
what do they differentiate on besides yield? Like that's what
consumers tend to shop, or like what are the other
tangible things? Could a bank set itself apart to establish
(03:26):
that progacy with a customer?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, I can go first. I think it's largely what
we talked about at the end of the session, which
was when you think about, you know, how you really differentiate,
You really have to think about how do I create
a two x five x ten x better banking experience
for that consumer. The reality is banking looks very commoditize
these days, right, like per your point, unless you're like really,
(03:48):
price sends it into I want to maximize my savings
yield or I want to get you know, the most
amount of points for a certain spend category. The reality
is like when you can have a fundamentally different product,
people get really excited. Right, So why thing that you
know we focus a lot on is this idea of
building subscription management? Right? Can I build a whole experience
that you know, helps the customer understand what all my
(04:09):
bills are, like find ones I didn't realize I was
paying for, help me consolidate or find a better rate
for something that I already you know, buy, and then
kind of curate something that like nobody else is really
able to do effectively. If you can do that and
find those moments to make that happen, then I think
you can really win.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, and you mentioned the like mobile check deposit, like
that was the last major thing I even remember as
a consumer. Like this changes how I think about banking.
But so would you say technology like what pinwheels developing
or the things you talked about switching deposits, does that
make up a bank stickier or does that just make
it easier for people to switch and maybe you know,
decrease again the need for privacy.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, so I think of it as two classes of products.
I think one is around customer activation and portability. That's
things like a direct depositive switch or you know, switching
your card on file, right, those things are inherently in
service of making it easy to to switch and make
your account more portable. Those I think will and hopefully
it's a good thing that you're increasing competition, right so
(05:07):
that people aren't stuck at the same place, because there's
just like inertia, not wanting to switch, right even though
they know there's a better product out there. And the
other part is what I would call like more value creation,
so like a subscription or bill manager that really helps
you get a hold of your financial life, check all
your bills, be able to pay them appropriately so you
avoid late ps and what have you. That I think
is like something that everybody should have. And it doesn't
(05:28):
really make it, you know, make you want to necessarily
hop from one place for another place. It's just something
that every single FI should have in their making experience.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, and you guys mentioned some stats around you know,
why would people switch primary financial institution and seem to
be between major life events or just being so disgruntled
You're like, I never want to do business with this company.
Again maybe like double click into that a little bit.
What are some of those underlying causes of switching.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I mean, I think the reality is when it comes
to kind of the quote unquote primary checking account, the
one where you're in come comes into and where you spend,
there is a high level of stickiness there because it's
sort of like electricity.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
You need it.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
You can't turn it off, right, you need to have
it on. So there's a hesitancy to move that because
you know there's friction. But you know, as Kurt mentioned,
a lot of the technology that we see today is
actually reducing that friction, making it easier to move, so
that people, you know, have more choice. But at the
same time, it isn't that important for most people. They're
not thinking about it regularly. And I think the real
challenge that the industry is facing in a sense is
(06:27):
this idea where well, historically we always focus on acquisition,
let's get the next account, let's grow right. But then
I think there's a shift right now from you know,
focusing on quantity to quality because quantity is churned mostly now.
As why I mentioned ninety seven percent of Americans are banked, right,
and so if you want to win the next customer
to take it from someone else. And the the challenging
(06:47):
part right now is to date because of the way,
like a lot of large banks or banks in general
are structured, like everything all the business kind of product
lines are pretty independent, and so you as a consumer
there there's limited actual value in terms of consolidating, right
Why go to the same place when you see over there,
there's an offer over there, an offer over there, And
so people tend to go in that direction. But I
(07:09):
think that's actually to the detriment in both the individual
consumer and also to the provider, because there's a lot
of waste, is the short of it.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, yeah, And the other thing that that struck me
you talked about you know, the goal should be again
focused back on the consumer. So how do you become
top of mind or that person they go to for advice?
And it got me thinking again, like tend to reach
for my phone, So like is the phone the new branch?
So I have a question and I go to perplexity,
Like I want to move money, like I open a
certain app. I want to transfer money or pay someone
back for a Broadway show ticket, like I use a
(07:38):
different app, but like the phone, is like where I
go first, and you know, is that what people expect
to interact with their How do you think about, you know,
who who is the consumer asking questions when it comes
to their finances and is that still a traditional bank
or who has that right for the consumer.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
So, you know, if we unpacked a little bit your question,
there are a few things. One one is we know
we've actually as a firm, we published some research on
the gen Z population. Interestingly, we found in that research
that the gen Z they don't respect you know, sort
of authoritative figures and experts and such like I said,
(08:17):
the don't want to listen to like the person that
supposedly has the correct knowledge, right, so instead they listen
to their peers, right, so they can go on TikTok
And if you know, there's an influencer, so I think
we should, you know, as financial institutions like kind of
marketing to the next generation of customers. That is important
whether you're a bank or a fintech. And just recognizing
you know that they actually you know sort of almost
(08:38):
like a peer pressure and stuff like, you know, there's
the peer influence right for for how they actually make
their financial decisions and that's important. The other thing I
want to call out is the sort of the digital
experience side of things, like because you were mentioned in
the phone and if you pull up your mobile banking app,
you know, ninety nine percent of the time it shows
(08:59):
you a laundry list of accounts, and so from a
behavioral science angle, if you see the accounts, you basically
are checking balances and that's sort of the most sort
of engaging thing that you could do with anybody's banking
app today. But Kurt Worth mentioning that there's other ways
of engaging with the customers that might actually get to
(09:20):
a better definition privacy, because just checking your accounts is
not really primacy. It's a very passive sort of activity
to do, right, So I think a lot of the
banks actually overlook, you know, how they actually serve their
customers in the digital world.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, that's a great point, and you guys also hit
on maybe an appropriate balance of that in the industry
is risk management. So, you know, how do you think
about the view there in terms of, yes, be innovative,
find ways to connect with your customers, but knowing that
the health of the American economies like underpinned by this industry.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
That's certainly the foundation of banking.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Right.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
This is a gathered deposits of privilege. Right, you need
a charter to do it. It's considered to be basically
a public good in anyways, and so I think on
that end that that needs to stay right and this
this industry is unique relative to all industries because of that.
But that is not to say that there is not
a better way to serve consumers. And I think that
the challenge has a little bit been that it is
(10:16):
expensive to basically take that next step.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
I think there's a focus on, you know, how do
I drive incremental like kind of progress in the near term.
And there are some of these things that we're talking
about here that are more forward looking in terms of like,
you know, what are the needs that are unmet right
now that I think that a lot of consumers actually want, right,
because I think that if you ask consumers, are they
satisfied with what they have? Yeah? Actually they are generally satisfied.
That's why they're not moving too much. But do they
(10:39):
actually do a bunch of things in order to just
kind of curate their needs, Like you know, pick a
little bit account here, an account there, and mix it
together and you know, serve their needs maybe as a
household of you know, a couples for instance, Like yeah,
plenty of people do that. And what that really reflects
is that actually there's stuff that people are doing that
they would love to have streamline for them if possible, Right,
why not do one stop, Like if you're able to
(11:00):
actually do that in a way that creates more value
for the customer, I actually think that there would be
demand for that.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Right, Building off of that, like to your earlier question
around like you know, is there your phone the new branch? Right,
there's this thesis that existed for a long time in
the industry around like building super apps, right, Like in China,
there's all these examples of like there's one app that
does everything for you, right, and the fundamental like crux
of it actually makes a ton of sense, right, Like
(11:28):
whether it was Mint or all these like first wave pfms.
Everybody would love to see a view of like my
holistic financial life in one app, right, like my savings accounts,
my brokerage accounts, all my investment accounts, my crypto accounts,
Like I want to see everything in one place, and
ideally it's like constantly helping me make more money, makes
more decisions, et cetera. Right, So, like, I don't think
(11:48):
anybody disagrees with that dream. But I think the problem is,
going back to your question, a lot of the large
fis are structured to be risk management apparatus, right and
right fully so, right, like you, when you are relied
upon for society to operate, you really can't screw things up, right,
Like the cost of that extremely high. So they're doing
(12:09):
what they're supposed to be doing. But the downside of
that is you don't have a culture of people are
willing to take risks because like, if you just don't
mess anything up, you keep your job. Everybody wins. You
take risks, they don't work out, You create like undue exposure,
Things fall apart, people get in trouble. And so I
think what you see is like that's why fintech exists.
That's why companies like us exist, because we can be
that extended arm that helps you innovate, prove things out,
(12:32):
and if it really works well, you can always bring
it inside.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
So, Like the example that always like to share is
like when you look at P to P payments, right,
there's menmo there's cash app, and they crushed for a
long time, and then the banks are like, wait a second,
like we should just create our own system, right, And
thus Zel was born, and like Zell does a ton
of volume. People don't even realize how how much it proliferates,
and it's it's in every bank's app for the most part, right,
(12:55):
And so I think like, if you can really prove
something that works well, it will eventually get adopted device.
And then like if you keep doing that thing over
and over and over again, if you get another version
of Azel or a tenex better bill pay thing or
have you eventually do you think these large fis will
start to be super apps? But it's just going to
take a very long time because no one, no one
internally is innovating in the speed they need to.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, well, and you guys did a good job also
managing like the you know, the economic side of the
city equation, right, because the cost of deposits is what
fuels a lot of the ability to lend, right, So
in a lot of other technology companies maybe the expense
is different. Do you see that always being a part
of the equation here or again we've kind of gone
back and forth, and separating what should a bank do,
(13:36):
what kind of businesses should it be in, and separating
those things, and regulation playing apart, Like is deposits always
going to be the best way to fund you know,
lending or do you see banks separating? And as you
were saying earlier, like maybe there's some commoditization necessary and
someone just really good at doing a certain lending product
or someone's great at savings, and you know that the
(13:57):
market starts to break apart, our banks stay as the
super app that you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
I mean, on the I guess I don't know if
I fully understand the question, but I mean, certainly there's
I think one of the main challenges in banking, right
it's like kind of like the ironies, if you will,
is that a lot of the value that's created is
through inertia, right, Like when we think about deposits, for instance,
like why is there so much so much value is
created from deposits. Why Because it's a lower cost of
(14:27):
funds for the rest of the bank. Right it funds
the balance sheet that otherwise if they had to get
through wholesale palk pro funding would be really expensive. But
there's this question also fundamentally is like is that actually
the right thing to do?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Right?
Speaker 3 (14:37):
And so, I mean you look at some of the
lawsuits in the last year right on this topic. I
want to name names, but right like the idea where hey,
consumer was misled in terms of the rate that they
were going to get in their deposits, they should have
gotten more look at that big gap. Well you can
make that argument for a lot of institutions where you know,
like people are being paid like low interest rates on
their savings. But there's like that that moves, right and
(14:59):
what drives that inner And then one of the things
technology has done, of course, is create this kind of
more less information asymmetry. More people are aware of and
easily aware what that information is, and so like should
that happen right on the flip side, like from a
regulatory standpoint, right, like that that's not great for consumers,
But from a regulatory standpoint, you want kind of those
balances to be kind of lower cost and stable at least, right,
(15:21):
And so it's a it's a tricky thing in terms
of what the right balance is, but I definitely see
a shift inevitably where you know that inertia in a sense,
it's like kind of similar to that anchoring analogy that
I brought up during the session, where I think that
that anchor is getting later and later, right, Like, there's
just more that do more than that. You can't just
rely on inertia in the future.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, no, And I think you hit to the heart
of the question because the other part of that is,
you know, the focus on fees, right, So if banks
fundamentally have to earn less money on fees, like the
only other way you know to do that is through deposits.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Or it can be through other things. I think, because
there is a question is are people willing to pay
fees for other kind of sources of value? Like that's
the real question, you know. And we can say what
we want about the last kind of administration in terms
of you know, questions around fees, but like I mean,
there was a considered push for you know, in a
pushing for innovation in a sense where it's like you
(16:14):
cannot in a sense still generate as much value from
kind of history. You need to create new value, right
to continue to do that. And that's a real tough
part where it's like are people going to be willing
to pay what are the people willing to pay for right,
because once something's free, it's very hard to you know,
pay charge them for it.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
But just on that note, what's interesting is if you
look at the difference between neo banks and FinTechs versus
traditional banks. In Chime, which is an example that's being
brought up, I mean, they were one of the first
to charge a monthly fee and people are willing to
pay for it. And at the time, they didn't really
offer you know, high interests or whatnot, like it was
like the whole whole value proposition was, you know, basically
(16:52):
to advance a paycheck and and that's something that people
needed and then they're actually willing to pay a fee
for whereas if you look at a big bank, it's
a different sort of starting point where the majority of
the fees are not the monthly fees but rather you know,
overdraft than some of the other you know, kind of
the fees that are you know, in the previous administration
that termed as more nuisance fees and and so so
(17:13):
I would say like this, the starting points are different,
and the economics model was actually different between the bank
side and the fintech side, and it's actually pretty exciting
to see what kind of solutions they come up with.
And in the in the session earlier, we we said
there was no there was no unified It's not like
the whole industry is converging to one model of you know,
like there's here's one proposition to draw primacy. That the
(17:36):
FinTechs are actually coming up with different soclutions from the banks.
Even within the banks, they're coming up with different solutions. Yeah,
this is a really key point.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I just want to make sure that we make hit,
which is like, yeah, uh, the banks are like the
og subscription products. People don't realize la they always charge
you monthly fees. It was used the didn't know it
because it just like plopped into your like your transaction
like flow. One day You're like, oh, it was ten
bucks this month, right, but like you didn't nobody really
thought about it because you when when you write the
brandch by the way, we're going to charge your ten
(18:03):
bucks to service the account. Right, you just like got charged.
But like they've had subscriptions for a very very long time.
And the difference that ways language is really important is
like there's two kinds of fees, right, there's uh pees
that fees that penalize you. And then there are fees
that like are value supported, you know you're paying for right,
And like.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
The tallens though, is that like because of free checking
historically in the United States? Right, the expectation today from
a lot of consumers that like, oh, there's a fee,
but I'm gonna you know, that's gonna get waived. And
that is true for the majority of large banks, right.
It's like a small percentage at least in the US
actually get charged that fee. And so like that's the
part that's triggy where I think that there are very
few people in America today that are willing to pay
(18:46):
for those very basic kind of services anymore because they
believe that that should be free, just as free training
is free now. So the only way to be able
to charge fees where it's like more like a subscription model,
right or remembers models like you've got to give them
something else, right, And the real question is what could
that be?
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Right?
Speaker 3 (19:00):
And I think that in the credit card will you
see some of what that might look like? Right, Some
of the large credit card issuers, like they have certain
models where hey, fees are part of the thing, and
many of them have really tried to branch out where
they're not just doing credit card anymore. They have savings accounts,
they have checking accounts, and they're also doing the same
thing as everyone else is doing, which is trying to know,
(19:20):
build that holistic relationship, right, because there's a lot of
value there.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
But there is this concept that has been around for decades,
like value added checking accounts or like premium checking accounts
where you pay for a higher tier or you pay
a higher monthly fee or to get more products, right,
and so those perform extremely well, right, whether it's getting
access to like better interest rates, or like you bundle
in like ID theft protection, phone insurance, pet insurance, like
(19:47):
triple A, et cetera. Like when you bundle it into
the checking account and you start to charge them, you know,
ten bucks a month instead of three bucks a month.
The consumers like, actually the math makes sense if I
don't have to pay a triple a somewhere else, it's
actually is like still a good deal for for me, Yes,
I'll do this, right, And so there's actually plenty of
ways that are good for the consumer, good for the FI,
good for the ecosystem where you can still charge the
(20:07):
consumer fees, and I think we have to get away
from this idea of like like like fees are bad.
It's just like the fees have to be worth it
to pay, right, Like you pay for Amazon Prime, Nobody
bats an eye at them. It's like forty bucks a month.
You're like, yeah, because I get my packaged tomorrow. Right,
It's like I'm totally worth it. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Well, I think we're running out of times, so maybe
we can end with you know, a bold prediction or
like if we were to meet again in five to
ten years, like who will be the winner in the
primary financial institution race, or a characteristic of that institution,
like what will have they gotten? Right?
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I mean I think that I think scale does matter
in this space, right, So I think the scale players
have a big advantage here, and that scale may be
in terms of traditional banks, but also scale in terms
of you know, non banks as well. That that's there.
The country is over banks at the end of the
day in many ways, and so that's going to make
a big difference.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I think. So whoever can make the most of the
customer base they have and sustain.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
And I think the number of banks will continue to
decline and credit unisill the kind that's sort of inevitable,
and so I think we'll see basically scale players really
trying to you know, win basically a bigger share of
their customer's wallet.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Well, I agree with that point. I am actually pretty
excited with the way open banking has had it in
this country because unlike other jurisdictions like Europe and Canada, UK,
where open banking was sort of pushed by regulators as
more of a transparence like you know, kind of data sharing,
kind of a mandate, there's a lot of innovation happening
(21:39):
in the US, you know, for for better or was,
there was a lack of a mandate from the government
to do things. And what that actually creates is as
a traditional financial services player continue to commoditize their products,
the technology players can come in to create that customer experience.
And that's where the primacy you know question will be
(21:59):
answered than I think, you know, maybe five to ten
years down the road, we'll start to see true disintermediation
where the traditional players are still there to do the
risk management stuff, but the customer experience and you know,
where the mind share is, where customers actually turned to
is where the technology innovators are.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
My het take, and it's definitely a hot take, is
that I think the big brands that have a lot
of brand equity with their customers will become increasingly more
like perceived as a financial service provider. So I'll give
you a couple examples, right, Like, the the amount of
spend on Delta's American Express card is like equal to
(22:41):
one percent of the country's GDP. It's crazy, right, And
that's a co branded card. And so you see this
massive movement now of like if as a brand, I
can monetize on my customer because of my relationship, but
then and they trust me, I can get some of
the entertained, it's a big revenue stream for me. Right, Like,
you start to see a lot of other brands trying
to replicate that model because the're like, well, if Delta
can do it, why can't I do that?
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Right?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
And the other one is like, we just announced a
partnership with DoorDash where they're basically trying to take all
of their dashers and like create a bank and a
whole set of like financial services dedicated to what they need,
which is not the same thing as what a chase
can provide for example, right, And so I think whether
it's because you have a special like set of data
and ways to like understand your customer, or you're just
(23:22):
a brand that has like, like I don't understand why
Airbnb or Nike or some of these brands have a
lot of like affinity like aren't moving faster or to
create more like financial products for their customers because they
would crush it, right, And I think that that is
starting to happen and trying to see a lot of
these companies really start to like create their own like
financial product suites and that will only continue to grow.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, very interesting.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
It's almost like, you know, what's old is new again.
A lot of credit unions start that way, right, like
a common membership goal and create financial services geared towards them.
So that could be an interesting take.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Well, thank you all for the time. Really enjoyed the
session and the chat today, so hope you enjoy the
rest of the show.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
The huge thanks for having us since
Speaker 4 (24:02):
At
Hey everyone, Matt Snow from Upstart with another episode of
Leaders in Lending live from CBA twenty twenty five here
in Orlando. Today, I'm joining with Dennis and Way from
Oliver Wyman and Kurt from Pinwell. Thank you guys for joining. Yeah, absolutely,
maybe we can go down the line with quick introductions.
Tell me a little bit about what you're doing today.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah. My name is Dennis Tchura.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I'm a principal in our retail business making practice at
Oliver Wyman. I focus primarily on consumer financial needs as
well as deposits.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
And my name is Wake I'm a partner with Oliver
Wyman retovininess banking practice. I do a lot of work
on product proposition, innovation, pricing, sales marketing.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
And I'm Kurtlin. I'm copeender and CEO of a company
called Pinweel. We help built soffward to make it easy
for bings to win and establish primacy. So things like
making it easy to switch your drive deposit, help manage
your bills, eventually switch your bills, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Great, and so I sat in on the session earlier
the three of you were a part of. In terms
of primacy and defining that in how it's important and
how to help banks establish that. So I was thinking,
you know, maybe I'll start a little bit more provocative
and like, is primacy even important today if you think
about open banking and the choice consumers have, Like, is
that still a goal worth pursuing for a financial institution.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I mean, I'm happy to start on that one. I
think that's a really fair and important question, and I
think the answer generally is yes. But then also depends, right.
I think there's an option where you don't need that
relationship right, where instead you just focus on as cost
effectively as possible selling a particular product. But then you
become a pure commodity. And I think that the real
question when it comes to primacy is how much of
(01:39):
the value do you want to actually create that is
not simply about a commodity. How much of it's actually
about serving the needs of a consumer more holistically, how
much of it's about your brand about basically your value
is about other things that you provide to the customer,
wherein you know, the decision of whether or not to
choose to work with you isn't just about the price,
it's about something else.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Yeah, yeah, fair, Yeah, I think there's a there's a
math question here because at Dennis in the earlier session
was mentioning that maybe like ninety seven percent of the
Americans are actually banked. So at the end of the day,
you know, the banks are out there and the fintech's
out there essentially stealing each other's clients, and primacy is
a way of deepening that relationship, and really, you know,
(02:18):
that's that's what's probably going to food of growth going forward.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah, I think it's hugely important. And the way I
think about it is you're trying to build a relationship
with that customer and ultimately get them into deeper and
deeper into your ecosystem. Right, So the example I always give,
I think actually Dentnis had mentioned earlier, is you look
at Apple, right, like maybe you start with an iPod
or an iPhone and then eventually, you know, you get
a MacBook, then you get some air pods, and all
of a sudden, like you're in this ecosystem where everything
(02:43):
works fluidly because you really like bought into the brand
ethos and the product suite, and as a bank, like
it's a lot easier what should be a lot easier,
I should say, if you have a credit card, a
checking account, a savings account, hopefully even with a broken
or something, all with the same FI instead of having
one of those at four different places, because then they
can really understand your holistic financial life and serve you better. Sure.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah, and that really resonated with me, along with many
stats and the presentation. But thinking about the reduction and
the number of banks, So if there are so so
much fewer banks today and the consumers have choice, like
what do they differentiate on besides yield? Like that's what
consumers tend to shop, or like what are the other
tangible things? Could a bank set itself apart to establish
(03:26):
that progacy with a customer?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, I can go first. I think it's largely what
we talked about at the end of the session, which
was when you think about, you know, how you really differentiate,
You really have to think about how do I create
a two x five x ten x better banking experience
for that consumer. The reality is banking looks very commoditize
these days, right, like per your point, unless you're like really,
(03:48):
price sends it into I want to maximize my savings
yield or I want to get you know, the most
amount of points for a certain spend category. The reality
is like when you can have a fundamentally different product,
people get really excited. Right, So why thing that you
know we focus a lot on is this idea of
building subscription management? Right? Can I build a whole experience
that you know, helps the customer understand what all my
(04:09):
bills are, like find ones I didn't realize I was
paying for, help me consolidate or find a better rate
for something that I already you know, buy, and then
kind of curate something that like nobody else is really
able to do effectively. If you can do that and
find those moments to make that happen, then I think
you can really win.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, and you mentioned the like mobile check deposit, like
that was the last major thing I even remember as
a consumer. Like this changes how I think about banking.
But so would you say technology like what pinwheels developing
or the things you talked about switching deposits, does that
make up a bank stickier or does that just make
it easier for people to switch and maybe you know,
decrease again the need for privacy.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, so I think of it as two classes of products.
I think one is around customer activation and portability. That's
things like a direct depositive switch or you know, switching
your card on file, right, those things are inherently in
service of making it easy to to switch and make
your account more portable. Those I think will and hopefully
it's a good thing that you're increasing competition, right so
(05:07):
that people aren't stuck at the same place, because there's
just like inertia, not wanting to switch, right even though
they know there's a better product out there. And the
other part is what I would call like more value creation,
so like a subscription or bill manager that really helps
you get a hold of your financial life, check all
your bills, be able to pay them appropriately so you
avoid late ps and what have you. That I think
is like something that everybody should have. And it doesn't
(05:28):
really make it, you know, make you want to necessarily
hop from one place for another place. It's just something
that every single FI should have in their making experience.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, and you guys mentioned some stats around you know,
why would people switch primary financial institution and seem to
be between major life events or just being so disgruntled
You're like, I never want to do business with this company.
Again maybe like double click into that a little bit.
What are some of those underlying causes of switching.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I mean, I think the reality is when it comes
to kind of the quote unquote primary checking account, the
one where you're in come comes into and where you spend,
there is a high level of stickiness there because it's
sort of like electricity.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
You need it.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
You can't turn it off, right, you need to have
it on. So there's a hesitancy to move that because
you know there's friction. But you know, as Kurt mentioned,
a lot of the technology that we see today is
actually reducing that friction, making it easier to move, so
that people, you know, have more choice. But at the
same time, it isn't that important for most people. They're
not thinking about it regularly. And I think the real
challenge that the industry is facing in a sense is
(06:27):
this idea where well, historically we always focus on acquisition,
let's get the next account, let's grow right. But then
I think there's a shift right now from you know,
focusing on quantity to quality because quantity is churned mostly now.
As why I mentioned ninety seven percent of Americans are banked, right,
and so if you want to win the next customer
to take it from someone else. And the the challenging
(06:47):
part right now is to date because of the way,
like a lot of large banks or banks in general
are structured, like everything all the business kind of product
lines are pretty independent, and so you as a consumer
there there's limited actual value in terms of consolidating, right
Why go to the same place when you see over there,
there's an offer over there, an offer over there, And
so people tend to go in that direction. But I
(07:09):
think that's actually to the detriment in both the individual
consumer and also to the provider, because there's a lot
of waste, is the short of it.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, yeah, And the other thing that that struck me
you talked about you know, the goal should be again
focused back on the consumer. So how do you become
top of mind or that person they go to for advice?
And it got me thinking again, like tend to reach
for my phone, So like is the phone the new branch?
So I have a question and I go to perplexity,
Like I want to move money, like I open a
certain app. I want to transfer money or pay someone
back for a Broadway show ticket, like I use a
(07:38):
different app, but like the phone, is like where I
go first, and you know, is that what people expect
to interact with their How do you think about, you know,
who who is the consumer asking questions when it comes
to their finances and is that still a traditional bank
or who has that right for the consumer.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
So, you know, if we unpacked a little bit your question,
there are a few things. One one is we know
we've actually as a firm, we published some research on
the gen Z population. Interestingly, we found in that research
that the gen Z they don't respect you know, sort
of authoritative figures and experts and such like I said,
(08:17):
the don't want to listen to like the person that
supposedly has the correct knowledge, right, so instead they listen
to their peers, right, so they can go on TikTok
And if you know, there's an influencer, so I think
we should, you know, as financial institutions like kind of
marketing to the next generation of customers. That is important
whether you're a bank or a fintech. And just recognizing
you know that they actually you know sort of almost
(08:38):
like a peer pressure and stuff like, you know, there's
the peer influence right for for how they actually make
their financial decisions and that's important. The other thing I
want to call out is the sort of the digital
experience side of things, like because you were mentioned in
the phone and if you pull up your mobile banking app,
you know, ninety nine percent of the time it shows
(08:59):
you a laundry list of accounts, and so from a
behavioral science angle, if you see the accounts, you basically
are checking balances and that's sort of the most sort
of engaging thing that you could do with anybody's banking
app today. But Kurt Worth mentioning that there's other ways
of engaging with the customers that might actually get to
(09:20):
a better definition privacy, because just checking your accounts is
not really primacy. It's a very passive sort of activity
to do, right, So I think a lot of the
banks actually overlook, you know, how they actually serve their
customers in the digital world.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, that's a great point, and you guys also hit
on maybe an appropriate balance of that in the industry
is risk management. So, you know, how do you think
about the view there in terms of, yes, be innovative,
find ways to connect with your customers, but knowing that
the health of the American economies like underpinned by this industry.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
That's certainly the foundation of banking.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Right.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
This is a gathered deposits of privilege. Right, you need
a charter to do it. It's considered to be basically
a public good in anyways, and so I think on
that end that that needs to stay right and this
this industry is unique relative to all industries because of that.
But that is not to say that there is not
a better way to serve consumers. And I think that
the challenge has a little bit been that it is
(10:16):
expensive to basically take that next step.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
I think there's a focus on, you know, how do
I drive incremental like kind of progress in the near term.
And there are some of these things that we're talking
about here that are more forward looking in terms of like,
you know, what are the needs that are unmet right
now that I think that a lot of consumers actually want, right,
because I think that if you ask consumers, are they
satisfied with what they have? Yeah? Actually they are generally satisfied.
That's why they're not moving too much. But do they
(10:39):
actually do a bunch of things in order to just
kind of curate their needs, Like you know, pick a
little bit account here, an account there, and mix it
together and you know, serve their needs maybe as a
household of you know, a couples for instance, Like yeah,
plenty of people do that. And what that really reflects
is that actually there's stuff that people are doing that
they would love to have streamline for them if possible, Right,
why not do one stop, Like if you're able to
(11:00):
actually do that in a way that creates more value
for the customer, I actually think that there would be
demand for that.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Right, Building off of that, like to your earlier question
around like you know, is there your phone the new branch? Right,
there's this thesis that existed for a long time in
the industry around like building super apps, right, Like in China,
there's all these examples of like there's one app that
does everything for you, right, and the fundamental like crux
of it actually makes a ton of sense, right, Like
(11:28):
whether it was Mint or all these like first wave pfms.
Everybody would love to see a view of like my
holistic financial life in one app, right, like my savings accounts,
my brokerage accounts, all my investment accounts, my crypto accounts,
Like I want to see everything in one place, and
ideally it's like constantly helping me make more money, makes
more decisions, et cetera. Right, So, like, I don't think
(11:48):
anybody disagrees with that dream. But I think the problem is,
going back to your question, a lot of the large
fis are structured to be risk management apparatus, right and
right fully so, right, like you, when you are relied
upon for society to operate, you really can't screw things up, right,
Like the cost of that extremely high. So they're doing
(12:09):
what they're supposed to be doing. But the downside of
that is you don't have a culture of people are
willing to take risks because like, if you just don't
mess anything up, you keep your job. Everybody wins. You
take risks, they don't work out, You create like undue exposure,
Things fall apart, people get in trouble. And so I
think what you see is like that's why fintech exists.
That's why companies like us exist, because we can be
that extended arm that helps you innovate, prove things out,
(12:32):
and if it really works well, you can always bring
it inside.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
So, Like the example that always like to share is
like when you look at P to P payments, right,
there's menmo there's cash app, and they crushed for a
long time, and then the banks are like, wait a second,
like we should just create our own system, right, And
thus Zel was born, and like Zell does a ton
of volume. People don't even realize how how much it proliferates,
and it's it's in every bank's app for the most part, right,
(12:55):
And so I think like, if you can really prove
something that works well, it will eventually get adopted device.
And then like if you keep doing that thing over
and over and over again, if you get another version
of Azel or a tenex better bill pay thing or
have you eventually do you think these large fis will
start to be super apps? But it's just going to
take a very long time because no one, no one
internally is innovating in the speed they need to.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, well, and you guys did a good job also
managing like the you know, the economic side of the
city equation, right, because the cost of deposits is what
fuels a lot of the ability to lend, right, So
in a lot of other technology companies maybe the expense
is different. Do you see that always being a part
of the equation here or again we've kind of gone
back and forth, and separating what should a bank do,
(13:36):
what kind of businesses should it be in, and separating
those things, and regulation playing apart, Like is deposits always
going to be the best way to fund you know,
lending or do you see banks separating? And as you
were saying earlier, like maybe there's some commoditization necessary and
someone just really good at doing a certain lending product
or someone's great at savings, and you know that the
(13:57):
market starts to break apart, our banks stay as the
super app that you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
I mean, on the I guess I don't know if
I fully understand the question, but I mean, certainly there's
I think one of the main challenges in banking, right
it's like kind of like the ironies, if you will,
is that a lot of the value that's created is
through inertia, right, Like when we think about deposits, for instance,
like why is there so much so much value is
created from deposits. Why Because it's a lower cost of
(14:27):
funds for the rest of the bank. Right it funds
the balance sheet that otherwise if they had to get
through wholesale palk pro funding would be really expensive. But
there's this question also fundamentally is like is that actually
the right thing to do?
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Right?
Speaker 3 (14:37):
And so, I mean you look at some of the
lawsuits in the last year right on this topic. I
want to name names, but right like the idea where hey,
consumer was misled in terms of the rate that they
were going to get in their deposits, they should have
gotten more look at that big gap. Well you can
make that argument for a lot of institutions where you know,
like people are being paid like low interest rates on
their savings. But there's like that that moves, right and
(14:59):
what drives that inner And then one of the things
technology has done, of course, is create this kind of
more less information asymmetry. More people are aware of and
easily aware what that information is, and so like should
that happen right on the flip side, like from a
regulatory standpoint, right, like that that's not great for consumers,
But from a regulatory standpoint, you want kind of those
balances to be kind of lower cost and stable at least, right,
(15:21):
And so it's a it's a tricky thing in terms
of what the right balance is, but I definitely see
a shift inevitably where you know that inertia in a sense,
it's like kind of similar to that anchoring analogy that
I brought up during the session, where I think that
that anchor is getting later and later, right, Like, there's
just more that do more than that. You can't just
rely on inertia in the future.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, no, And I think you hit to the heart
of the question because the other part of that is,
you know, the focus on fees, right, So if banks
fundamentally have to earn less money on fees, like the
only other way you know to do that is through deposits.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Or it can be through other things. I think, because
there is a question is are people willing to pay
fees for other kind of sources of value? Like that's
the real question, you know. And we can say what
we want about the last kind of administration in terms
of you know, questions around fees, but like I mean,
there was a considered push for you know, in a
pushing for innovation in a sense where it's like you
(16:14):
cannot in a sense still generate as much value from
kind of history. You need to create new value, right
to continue to do that. And that's a real tough
part where it's like are people going to be willing
to pay what are the people willing to pay for right,
because once something's free, it's very hard to you know,
pay charge them for it.
Speaker 4 (16:29):
But just on that note, what's interesting is if you
look at the difference between neo banks and FinTechs versus
traditional banks. In Chime, which is an example that's being
brought up, I mean, they were one of the first
to charge a monthly fee and people are willing to
pay for it. And at the time, they didn't really
offer you know, high interests or whatnot, like it was
like the whole whole value proposition was, you know, basically
(16:52):
to advance a paycheck and and that's something that people
needed and then they're actually willing to pay a fee
for whereas if you look at a big bank, it's
a different sort of starting point where the majority of
the fees are not the monthly fees but rather you know,
overdraft than some of the other you know, kind of
the fees that are you know, in the previous administration
that termed as more nuisance fees and and so so
(17:13):
I would say like this, the starting points are different,
and the economics model was actually different between the bank
side and the fintech side, and it's actually pretty exciting
to see what kind of solutions they come up with.
And in the in the session earlier, we we said
there was no there was no unified It's not like
the whole industry is converging to one model of you know,
like there's here's one proposition to draw primacy. That the
(17:36):
FinTechs are actually coming up with different soclutions from the banks.
Even within the banks, they're coming up with different solutions. Yeah,
this is a really key point.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I just want to make sure that we make hit,
which is like, yeah, uh, the banks are like the
og subscription products. People don't realize la they always charge
you monthly fees. It was used the didn't know it
because it just like plopped into your like your transaction
like flow. One day You're like, oh, it was ten
bucks this month, right, but like you didn't nobody really
thought about it because you when when you write the
brandch by the way, we're going to charge your ten
(18:03):
bucks to service the account. Right, you just like got charged.
But like they've had subscriptions for a very very long time.
And the difference that ways language is really important is
like there's two kinds of fees, right, there's uh pees
that fees that penalize you. And then there are fees
that like are value supported, you know you're paying for right,
And like.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
The tallens though, is that like because of free checking
historically in the United States? Right, the expectation today from
a lot of consumers that like, oh, there's a fee,
but I'm gonna you know, that's gonna get waived. And
that is true for the majority of large banks, right.
It's like a small percentage at least in the US
actually get charged that fee. And so like that's the
part that's triggy where I think that there are very
few people in America today that are willing to pay
(18:46):
for those very basic kind of services anymore because they
believe that that should be free, just as free training
is free now. So the only way to be able
to charge fees where it's like more like a subscription model,
right or remembers models like you've got to give them
something else, right, And the real question is what could
that be?
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Right?
Speaker 3 (19:00):
And I think that in the credit card will you
see some of what that might look like? Right, Some
of the large credit card issuers, like they have certain
models where hey, fees are part of the thing, and
many of them have really tried to branch out where
they're not just doing credit card anymore. They have savings accounts,
they have checking accounts, and they're also doing the same
thing as everyone else is doing, which is trying to know,
(19:20):
build that holistic relationship, right, because there's a lot of
value there.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
But there is this concept that has been around for decades,
like value added checking accounts or like premium checking accounts
where you pay for a higher tier or you pay
a higher monthly fee or to get more products, right,
and so those perform extremely well, right, whether it's getting
access to like better interest rates, or like you bundle
in like ID theft protection, phone insurance, pet insurance, like
(19:47):
triple A, et cetera. Like when you bundle it into
the checking account and you start to charge them, you know,
ten bucks a month instead of three bucks a month.
The consumers like, actually the math makes sense if I
don't have to pay a triple a somewhere else, it's
actually is like still a good deal for for me, Yes,
I'll do this, right, And so there's actually plenty of
ways that are good for the consumer, good for the FI,
good for the ecosystem where you can still charge the
(20:07):
consumer fees, and I think we have to get away
from this idea of like like like fees are bad.
It's just like the fees have to be worth it
to pay, right, Like you pay for Amazon Prime, Nobody
bats an eye at them. It's like forty bucks a month.
You're like, yeah, because I get my packaged tomorrow. Right,
It's like I'm totally worth it. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Well, I think we're running out of times, so maybe
we can end with you know, a bold prediction or
like if we were to meet again in five to
ten years, like who will be the winner in the
primary financial institution race, or a characteristic of that institution,
like what will have they gotten? Right?
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I mean I think that I think scale does matter
in this space, right, So I think the scale players
have a big advantage here, and that scale may be
in terms of traditional banks, but also scale in terms
of you know, non banks as well. That that's there.
The country is over banks at the end of the
day in many ways, and so that's going to make
a big difference.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I think. So whoever can make the most of the
customer base they have and sustain.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
And I think the number of banks will continue to
decline and credit unisill the kind that's sort of inevitable,
and so I think we'll see basically scale players really
trying to you know, win basically a bigger share of
their customer's wallet.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Well, I agree with that point. I am actually pretty
excited with the way open banking has had it in
this country because unlike other jurisdictions like Europe and Canada, UK,
where open banking was sort of pushed by regulators as
more of a transparence like you know, kind of data sharing,
kind of a mandate, there's a lot of innovation happening
(21:39):
in the US, you know, for for better or was,
there was a lack of a mandate from the government
to do things. And what that actually creates is as
a traditional financial services player continue to commoditize their products,
the technology players can come in to create that customer experience.
And that's where the primacy you know question will be
(21:59):
answered than I think, you know, maybe five to ten
years down the road, we'll start to see true disintermediation
where the traditional players are still there to do the
risk management stuff, but the customer experience and you know,
where the mind share is, where customers actually turned to
is where the technology innovators are.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
My het take, and it's definitely a hot take, is
that I think the big brands that have a lot
of brand equity with their customers will become increasingly more
like perceived as a financial service provider. So I'll give
you a couple examples, right, Like, the the amount of
spend on Delta's American Express card is like equal to
(22:41):
one percent of the country's GDP. It's crazy, right, And
that's a co branded card. And so you see this
massive movement now of like if as a brand, I
can monetize on my customer because of my relationship, but
then and they trust me, I can get some of
the entertained, it's a big revenue stream for me. Right, Like,
you start to see a lot of other brands trying
to replicate that model because the're like, well, if Delta
can do it, why can't I do that?
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Right?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
And the other one is like, we just announced a
partnership with DoorDash where they're basically trying to take all
of their dashers and like create a bank and a
whole set of like financial services dedicated to what they need,
which is not the same thing as what a chase
can provide for example, right, And so I think whether
it's because you have a special like set of data
and ways to like understand your customer, or you're just
(23:22):
a brand that has like, like I don't understand why
Airbnb or Nike or some of these brands have a
lot of like affinity like aren't moving faster or to
create more like financial products for their customers because they
would crush it, right, And I think that that is
starting to happen and trying to see a lot of
these companies really start to like create their own like
financial product suites and that will only continue to grow.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, very interesting.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
It's almost like, you know, what's old is new again.
A lot of credit unions start that way, right, like
a common membership goal and create financial services geared towards them.
So that could be an interesting take.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Well, thank you all for the time. Really enjoyed the
session and the chat today, so hope you enjoy the
rest of the show.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
The huge thanks for having us since
Speaker 4 (24:02):
At
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