June 17, 2024 • 33 mins
John McKuen, legendary banjo and mandolin musician for The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band debuts his latest album Newsman.
Hear this exclusive story on the origin of The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, John's friendship with Steve Martin, and why he calls himself the Forrest Gump of Banjo Players.
Listen to John's special story about Walter Brennan and why he did his own version of Old Rivers.
He'd say, one of these days
I'm gonna climb that mountain
Walk up there among them clouds
Where the cotton's high
And the corn's a-growin'
And there ain't no fields to plow
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/legends-extraordinary-lives--5351541/support.
Hear this exclusive story on the origin of The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, John's friendship with Steve Martin, and why he calls himself the Forrest Gump of Banjo Players.
Listen to John's special story about Walter Brennan and why he did his own version of Old Rivers.
He'd say, one of these days
I'm gonna climb that mountain
Walk up there among them clouds
Where the cotton's high
And the corn's a-growin'
And there ain't no fields to plow
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/legends-extraordinary-lives--5351541/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Mister Bood Change, mister Change,mister Bood Chame and welcome back to success
made the last Legends. I'm RickTokeeney. We have an extremely great guest
(00:28):
on today, one that we havea long to interview. It's Grammy Winner
John McEwan, one of the originalband members of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band.
He has got one of the greatlong bios of all time. I'm
just gonna read a couple of things, John, and then I'm gonna let
(00:49):
you fill in all the gaps.Born in Oakland, California, a friend
of Steve Martin from nineteen sixty threein a magic shop, saw a Missouri
bluegrass group, the Dillards, atan Orange County club, and his life
(01:10):
was kind of turned, uh thatdirection forever. He is from, by
my estimation, one of the greatestliving banjo players now and I truly truly
love your work, especially your seminalwork on Will the Circle Be Unbroken?
(01:30):
John McEwan, Welcome to Legends.Well, thank you. Yeah, The
Circle Be Unbroken came together because Iasked Earls Struggles if he wanted to record,
and he said, I'd be proudto the next day iked Douck Washington.
We already had I already had Earl, so I was pretty confident asking
(01:53):
him, and he says, I'dlove to be there if I was going
to pick. And then the followingMonday, my brother who was our producer
and manager and photographer, and heasked Merl Travis, and eight weeks later
the others were had come along andwere added, and we eight weeks later
we started recording for five days anddid thirty eight songs. And that means
(02:20):
that you actually sang along with Mothermay Bell, Carter very Strange Yes,
and Doc Watson and Merle Travis,and it was it was as if they'd
been I'm not resurrected, but asif they had come out of a history
book. And there were like,I forgot to do this, let's do
(02:44):
it. I forgot to play thissong with some younger people. And I'm
thinking of may Bel because he wasso sweet about with people. There there
was no people problems. Who mightsay, you know Jenneralo gap Best,
Yeah, that's it's truly, it'struly amazing. I wanted to tell you
(03:09):
that I saw you at Texas Aand M in the mid seventies and I
don't know what. You've got arecollection for all the crazy college campuses that
you you played. But I wason the town hall committee that brought you
to College Station, Texas when therewas a whopping fifteen thousand students there.
(03:31):
Now there's seventy thousand, and weabsolutely loved your band. And you're playing.
Was that with the Carpenters, No, sir, The Carpenters were there
in seventy one seventy two when theyhad one hit. You were the you
(03:52):
were the headliner for that show.Yeah, I shouldn't remember if that was
when we played with the Carpenters.Yeah, that was back then, for
sure. I now got he playedwith Karen and Richard Carpenter. Tell me
about that experience. Well, theyused to come see the Dirt Band because
(04:14):
they were front fans when they werein the group they had called the Sound
Spectrum. And I met Richard whenI was working in Disneyland but the Magic
Shop. He was at the corner. He was playing Coke Corner, playing
ragtime music. I just did nineteensixty three and four, you know.
And he's young and I'm young,and you have to get a job somewhere,
(04:36):
and that's what he was doing.I remember him saying, yeah,
my sister sings some too. Wejust you know, oh nice. Then
a few years went by and theDirt Band started and they ended up opening
for the Dirt Band and two orthree times. And then Paul Williams has
written the song We've Only Just Begunas a bank commercial. He had driven
(05:02):
into La. He was at thestudio and Lebrea and Sunset, the old
Texas A and M studio, Imean a studio, yes, sir,
and it was the Charlie Chaplin studio. But he was writing this commercial and
somebody said, there's a young coupledownstairs recorded you might want to finish that
(05:25):
as the whole song, and they'lldo it, and they did We've Only
Just Begun and he was able topay for the car that he stole to
get to La. Paul Williams isnow the president of ASCAP. Oh my,
that's crazy. I love that story. That's how that's how the beginnings
(05:45):
start. And that's one of thethings that I think you are famous for,
other than your fabulous musicality and abilityto play banjo, is the fact
that you had you have collaborated withso many different different people over the course
of your career. What is thesecret to a great collaboration with other musicians?
(06:10):
Well, I don't know. Ask. I think the secret to anything
is ask, now, hey,you want to do such and such with
me? It's either yes or no. Right and no. It's just a
form of negotiation. It's no fornow, Let's see if I raise it
(06:36):
whatever, and persistence doing it andnever feel like never feeling like I was
enough to carry it all on myown two. I'm the guy that should
play this, and I want tohear somebody better, get the smarter person
(06:59):
than the room, or you know, you know what I mean. It's
just I think it comes from beinga teenager and a guy named Woody who
taught me how to pitch coins andhow to playpool and beat somebody that's better
than you. And that was afun thing to learn. But he says,
(07:20):
make sure you always play with peoplethat are better, otherwise you won't
play your best. And that's truewith music. That's true with music.
I found out when it came alongand anyway, rambling on it's I asked
(07:42):
Leon Russell. I recorded with acouple of times, and I had just
one time. I just I askedhim. We were playing at Chain's Ballroom
in Tulsa, and I called themup and said, hey, Leon,
can I come by? Well,yeah, bring a couple of the boys
and we'll record some. And wegot there about me and Jimmy Ibodson and
(08:03):
Les Thompson got there about one inthe morning, and we recorded Joshua comes
back home to the Island and playingdrums with Teddy Jack Eddie, who was
a nickname you know who that is, uh, you know at the county
a nickname for Gary Busey. ArryBusey was drummer at first, and he
(08:24):
played a good So that's it's justweird things have. I feel like Forrest
Gump with a banjo. You know. It's like, how did I get
in this picture? Okay, Ican stand, Oh okay, I'll play
a little back and yeah, okay, I'm so now I'll stand in this
(08:45):
pictures with Roy Acuff, oh okay? Or maybe this one was whoever John
Sebastian or uh, Linda Ronstaff andothers. Yeah, I've been very fortunate,
very very fortunate. It's it's I'mso glad that you mentioned that,
(09:07):
because you know we're sitting here thismorning, listening to your music over the
last thirty forty years and reminiscing aboutit, and it dawned on me that
as a drummer, some of mybest friends over the course of time as
musicians, have said, you knowthis guitar that I own here as one
(09:31):
of my best friends, it nevertalks back to me. And I thought,
wonder what John McEwan would say abouthis banjo and the kinship that you've
got with your banjo. Can youdescribe the love affair between you and a
banjo. We're always arguing. Isaid, no, it's not like that.
(09:52):
It's gotta be like I don't know, it's not like that either.
There's more like no, wait aminute, Uh, it's one of respects
that I really appreciate the fact thatit sounds so good and and all that.
It's Uh, that's hard. That'sa good question. It's hard to
(10:13):
come up with a real quick answer. But yeah, it's been there when
I was sick and when I waswell, and now i'm and now now
I'm sick and well. I hada heart attack a couple of months ago,
(10:33):
and I'm in the middle of rehabright now. When uh, it's
going quite well, I'm walking acouple of miles a day and and uh,
things like that, and and it'sso funny. I had this heart
attack right the week before my newalbum came out, The Newsman on Compass
(10:54):
Records, and it's I was gladI had done about thirty interviews before it
came out before I had to goto the hospital because I went to the
hospital and I was like mush forthree weeks. Oh my, Now the
mush is the mush is out nowand I'm getting going. I'm going on
the road in August. Actually,well, congratulations, I'm glad that you
(11:18):
made it. I'm glad you're heretalking to me about Newsman and the significance
of ban Joe's And I read thismorning John that there's approximately a million one
million banjo players across North America,and that just scratched my head about that,
(11:39):
going, why for such a beautifulinstrument. That's a lot of people,
granted, but why are there sofew? Tell me about why you
think that the banjo has still notcaught on and gotten up to the level
of the six string guitar. Thatis something you could say also for the
(12:05):
mandolin. But you know, Idon't know other than it's been considered a
funny instrument. It's something that wasused in a Dixieland band, it was
something that was used in bluegrass alot, for sure, but usually novelty
(12:30):
music, and or often novelty musicfor the banjo in general. And it's
got a different sound. It's percussion, it's it's notes. It doesn't sustain
very well. You know, youcan't go, you can't do a thing
(12:50):
like you stretching strings, carrying thewhole thing. But it's a good question.
I don't know, other than I'mdoing my part to try and get
it in front of people. That'sright. That's done by playing some unusual
(13:11):
things. I played unusual tunings.And sometimes it's a classical song that was
written three hundred years ago that wasfor the Harts record, but it seemed
to fit on the banjo. Andsometimes it is frailing. It's when you're
different style than bluegrass. You brushthe strings and pick them. And it's
(13:35):
on Soldier's Joy, which was onereason, one reason I wanted to record
with their all strugs, and Igot up the nerve to ask them it
was Soldier's Joy. I wanted todo a two part, a two instrument
song with the bass and it wouldbe banjo frailing and banjo picking, and
(13:58):
it works out. One of myfavorite pieces of music and one of girls
too. It's on Circle Be Unbroken? Will the Circle Be Unbroken, which
by the way, is in theGrammy Hall of Fame and the Library of
Congress. That's a big deal.Yeah, that's a big deal. That's
I'm glad you said that. Thankyou. It's it's bigger than big because
(14:22):
effectively it's it's right up there withthe top songs and albums of all time,
and it recognizes it for all theright reasons because there's there was something
magical about it. It was thatmoment in time and you you organized it
and got these people that were sodiversely different together. It was wonderful.
(14:48):
Five days in the studio went likeit seemed like it was five hours one
day with twelve hours and the logsheet has got ten phone li Yeah,
I love it. It was like, wow, yeah, that's just crazy.
So tell me about the songs thatyou love modest I'm sure you love
(15:11):
all them on Newsman, but tellme the ones that you that really kind
of stand out from your ear onthe news band. Yes, sir,
well, thank you for bringing thatup. That was that was the reason
for calling, wasn't it. Yes, sir, you don't have to call
me sir. Oh. I doit out of respect, and I'm a
(15:35):
Southerner, so I just I doit because I was taught that. Yeah.
Well, I would say the Newsmandis one of my favorites because it's
an absolutely true story about a guythat had influenced me by selling newspapers.
That's all he did was seld newspapers, and he was a crippled guy.
(15:56):
He'd hauld those newspapers around on hislittle motorbike and can go to restaurants and
offices and all up and down SunsetBoulevard, and he sold all his papers
apparently every day. And it's aboutthis how I saw him and watched him
and bought a few papers and thingsof that nature. That's one of my
(16:21):
favorite cuts because it's it always takesme back to nineteen sixty seven. But
when I want to go back sixtymore years, I go to nineteen oh
seven and do the Cremation of SamMcGhee, which was written by Robert Robert
Service, and it is really astrange poem. You think it's going to
(16:45):
be all dark and everything, butat the end you find out it's kind
of got a flist to it,and it's funny. The two guys we
were mushing our way over the DawsonTrail talk of your cold part is fold
that still it froze me like adriven nail. And if her eyes we
(17:08):
closed and our life is frozen,so sometimes we couldn't see that. The
only one to whimper was Sam McGhee, and it's on on about their experience,
and it really My sister used tosay it to me when I was
in fifth and sixth grade. Iwould ask her, would you do Sam
(17:30):
McGhee for me, and she'd doit, and she read it out of
her books and that was very nice, I thought. And Old Rivers,
that's the first song I remember hearingon the radio that really really got to
me. It was in nineteen sixtythree and Walter Brennan did it, and
(17:53):
I'd thought of this song often becauseof this message. There were old Rivers
of the guy plowing the ground saidone of these days, I'm going to
climb that mountain. Walked up thereamong the clouds were there ain't no fields
(18:14):
to plow, and there ain't nofields to plow. He plowed fields his
whole life and Knuiba Den is areally moving thing. I like all the
cuts on this. It took metwelve years to put this album together,
and some things aren't on there somethat could have been. And I was
(18:41):
very careful. I wanted to makean album that would appeal to more than
one aspect of people, and itdidn't have to be it had to be
stories. So I had to findthe stories and I found them. One
of them I founders on this albumis the Mountain Wolflewell. I've did that
(19:03):
with a dirt band for thirty yearsin the seventies, eighties and nineties,
and it's a story about a youngkid entering a fiddle contest and much to
the surprise of the crowd and ownVan Wheland, he won. And that
(19:26):
was a fun recording because it wasjust me, a banjo and a fiddle.
I traded off instruments and I recordedit in an old church. And
when I was talking about Nui banDen, I think the Vietnam War one
where this guy sent me a letter, a story, a poem. Well,
(19:51):
it's something he and his brother wrote. His brother had been to Vietnam
and was at this battle of NUIsbab Den, and when he he got
home, he didn't talk about anythingfor fifteen years. And his brother told
me he finally started talking about this, and they wrote this piece, this
(20:11):
song for it. And when Ifound the music, I wanted to put
with it and started reading it.It was really difficult because we were just
boys once expected to act like men. We got off the shop, you
know, we got off the helicopterand they said, don't worry. You
(20:33):
don't have to win. If youwant to make them on soon, just
keep your head low. And youknow, it was just and talks about
the dying men and all that,but it had to be told. I've
had that one sitting around for tenyears. Boy, oh my gosh.
(20:53):
Finally eight years ago I finished it. Eight years later, I finished it
and went looking for another one,and I found it. I found another
one. I founded a couple othersactually, and well do you want to
hear about him? Oh? Well, one of them is written by Henry
(21:19):
Wadsworth Longfellow, who I'd never thoughti'd record anything by. Here I am
saying his words along with the musicof a song called Vacant Chair, which
was written in eighteen sixty six orsixty five about we shall meet and we
(21:40):
shall miss him, There will beone vacant chair, and it's about the
missing guy that got taken out atbattle. And this poem Longfellow wrote was
about the mystery of being killed ina war, kind of about how he
goes from one happy moment to immediatelydeath and not just who the bullet just
(22:08):
killed by surprise, but what happenedto his wife in Massachusetts when she got
the news is also a sad partof the poem. And what's weird is
these two war poems, like Icall them war poems, the Moui Baden
(22:33):
and Yeah and Killed of the Ford, And you can practically interchange some of
the lyrics that it would work becausethey book covered the same futility topic.
Yeah, there's something about that.The way you've woven all of these stories
(22:57):
to gather into this one gift.I call it this record a gift to
us. And sometimes it takes alonger amount of time to find the right
tapestry, doesn't it loog? Whatdoesn't it sometimes take a longer amount of
(23:19):
time to produce a better record becauseyou've been you've been curating these stories for
over ten years, you said someof them, Yeah, and Old Rivers.
I decided to do Old Rivers.I've been thinking about it for fifty
years. Back when I first heardit before I started playing music, I
(23:40):
heard Old Rivers and I thought,I got to record that. I got
to put that on this album.I got to replace I had something that
I thought was weaker. Yeah,I was gonna take off, but I
didn't have anything to go there.Yeah, And anyway, I sat down
on my studio here and recorded thetop to bottom and did it one take
(24:02):
and overdubbed a couple of things andfinished it, mixed it everything three hours
and it's so great. Way couldthey have done some of the others in
three hours? Oh, I don'tknow. I know. I hey,
John, you know that the majorityof America didn't even know about Walter Brennan
(24:23):
and starring on The Real McCoy andwith Richard Crennas. So that's going to
be a new sound for them.I remember listening that to over the radio
and I was I was just Ithink my mom was crying when she heard
Old Rivers because it's got that rule. As she said, there ain't no
field to plow. I mean,it was over. It was a sad
(24:47):
song, but to have Walter Brennansang it and he was at the height
of his career, it was aIt was a very powerful song then and
now you're going to bring it toa new generation. Yeah, with a
different melody and instrumentation. What's funnyis Leon Russell played on the one with
Walter Brennan. I didn't know thatuntil he told me years ago. Since
(25:12):
anyway, Leon was a good friend, but Old Rivers was It was one
that really made move me too,still does. What was the first time
I seen Old Rivers? I don'tknow. It seems like that guy was
always around. It's been his wholelife doing hard work, walking that cloud
(25:36):
ground. You know. That saysa lot in four versus and four lines,
you know the hmm. Well,I've got a few more questions for
you, and they are related tosome friends here, musicians in Austin and
around the nation. And I toldhim that I was going to get a
(26:00):
chance to talk with you today,and so here goes some two questions coming
from musicians. The first one isabout band dynamics. They want to know,
you know that the band, thedynamics within the Dirt Band changed over
the years, and they want toknow what was your experience like to leave
the band and then come back intothe band. Leaving the band was a
(26:25):
good decision because they weren't doing musicthat I liked, and for me it
was a good I wanted to playmore of different types of music. They
it was a democratic situation. Iwould always get voted down four to one,
you know, And well sometimes itwas three to two because I had
(26:48):
some one guy on my side,but usually four to one. So most
of the things I recorded that wereinstrumentals were solo I ended up doing putting
the piece on an album or usingal Garth and the duo due And it's
(27:11):
just that you don't have to doit, but you better like the overall
thing, and I did. Iliked the overall effects of a group.
We'd go on stage, and Iliked certain parts of the show. We'd
get to and people would be ontheir feet, they'd be happy, they'd
be doing all kinds of stuff thatwas good, and I liked that part.
(27:34):
But yeah, in late nineteen eighties, it kind of wore out for
me, and I let it gofor ten years and the manager wrote everybody
(27:55):
a letter that says, you needwe need to have John back in the
band. Worry about less money andmoney is going to go up. Okay,
well good? And I had saidto him, I will stay in
the group if we recorded Nashville witha Nashville record label and do country music
(28:18):
and not do this pseudo rock androll. That the previous Jealousy album was
the lowest selling album ever, butI mean maybe ever, maybe not just
the dirt bad history, but itwas. It has some good things on
(28:42):
it, but only had a threeI think. But getting into the country
music and within a couple of yearswe've had long hard road our first number
one hit. Oh and Jimmy Ebdsonhad to be back in the band and
that all worked out, yes,And the dynamics is who's the leader.
(29:07):
Don't take anything you know about themusic business to a band meeting. When
you're talking about music. You knowwho gets the publishing and who, well,
you just want to do that becauseyou wrote it, and you know,
try and be supportive of each other. And as far as band dynamics,
(29:30):
be happy with being unhappy because itwill come, it will also go,
and you'll be happy again with theway things are going. Possibly,
And it's worth it because it's it'ssomething you can only get with a group,
(29:52):
some of the effects on the audience. So pick your mi curial good.
That's right, that's right, Ithink. One other final question from
her friend was about when Jackson Brownwas in the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band,
and it sort of relates to theband dynamics. What was your experience like
(30:15):
when he was in there. Hewas there for five shows and that's it.
He one of the group to backup his songs and he played along
with the band. And it wasa very young group, you know,
sixteen seventeen years old, eighteen nineteenand Less called me Less and I had
(30:41):
had a band previously, a bluegrassband, and he says, hey,
John, come check out the groupat the music store. We're calling it
a nitty Gritty Dirt band, andI think there's room for you. And
that's when I joined. It wastwo months after the band, and it
(31:02):
was in August of actually to Augustsecond at noon. It was a lot
of fun, a good a goodfifty years. Well it's actually a good
forty years good the fifth m Well, we thank you John so much for
(31:26):
being on Legends today and for yourmusic contribution over the course of many decades.
And I'll just kind of tell youthat I think your contribution to music
is significant and this last album,news Man, it is a significant gift
to us out here in as apart of your fan base. So thank
(31:47):
you so much for being on ourprogram and for the difference you continue making.
We wish you the best of healthand sounds like you are on your
way back. Yeah, and thankyou for your support. There's it's difficult
to get your projects out there.If you're solo and you've been in a
band and you go solo, youknow it is always difficult. Loggins the
(32:12):
Messina drew ten thousand people, Messinadraws five hundred, Loggins draws maybe one
thousand, two thousand. But similardynamics happened with people. And so if
you're in a band, make sureyou like it. Don't forget Hunter Thompson's
quote, the music business the longand narrow plastic hallway full of pimps and
(32:38):
thieves, where good men diect dogs. There's also a negative size, and
so it's so true. Thank youagain, and as we close out this
show as usual, we wish everyone of you's success, but on your
way to significance. Thank you,I'm great. Mister bowl Jangles, mister
(33:07):
Bould Dangles, mister bowl Jangles Dance
Mister Bood Change, mister Change,mister Bood Chame and welcome back to success
made the last Legends. I'm RickTokeeney. We have an extremely great guest
(00:28):
on today, one that we havea long to interview. It's Grammy Winner
John McEwan, one of the originalband members of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band.
He has got one of the greatlong bios of all time. I'm
just gonna read a couple of things, John, and then I'm gonna let
(00:49):
you fill in all the gaps.Born in Oakland, California, a friend
of Steve Martin from nineteen sixty threein a magic shop, saw a Missouri
bluegrass group, the Dillards, atan Orange County club, and his life
(01:10):
was kind of turned, uh thatdirection forever. He is from, by
my estimation, one of the greatestliving banjo players now and I truly truly
love your work, especially your seminalwork on Will the Circle Be Unbroken?
(01:30):
John McEwan, Welcome to Legends.Well, thank you. Yeah, The
Circle Be Unbroken came together because Iasked Earls Struggles if he wanted to record,
and he said, I'd be proudto the next day iked Douck Washington.
We already had I already had Earl, so I was pretty confident asking
(01:53):
him, and he says, I'dlove to be there if I was going
to pick. And then the followingMonday, my brother who was our producer
and manager and photographer, and heasked Merl Travis, and eight weeks later
the others were had come along andwere added, and we eight weeks later
we started recording for five days anddid thirty eight songs. And that means
(02:20):
that you actually sang along with Mothermay Bell, Carter very Strange Yes,
and Doc Watson and Merle Travis,and it was it was as if they'd
been I'm not resurrected, but asif they had come out of a history
book. And there were like,I forgot to do this, let's do
(02:44):
it. I forgot to play thissong with some younger people. And I'm
thinking of may Bel because he wasso sweet about with people. There there
was no people problems. Who mightsay, you know Jenneralo gap Best,
Yeah, that's it's truly, it'struly amazing. I wanted to tell you
(03:09):
that I saw you at Texas Aand M in the mid seventies and I
don't know what. You've got arecollection for all the crazy college campuses that
you you played. But I wason the town hall committee that brought you
to College Station, Texas when therewas a whopping fifteen thousand students there.
(03:31):
Now there's seventy thousand, and weabsolutely loved your band. And you're playing.
Was that with the Carpenters, No, sir, The Carpenters were there
in seventy one seventy two when theyhad one hit. You were the you
(03:52):
were the headliner for that show.Yeah, I shouldn't remember if that was
when we played with the Carpenters.Yeah, that was back then, for
sure. I now got he playedwith Karen and Richard Carpenter. Tell me
about that experience. Well, theyused to come see the Dirt Band because
(04:14):
they were front fans when they werein the group they had called the Sound
Spectrum. And I met Richard whenI was working in Disneyland but the Magic
Shop. He was at the corner. He was playing Coke Corner, playing
ragtime music. I just did nineteensixty three and four, you know.
And he's young and I'm young,and you have to get a job somewhere,
(04:36):
and that's what he was doing.I remember him saying, yeah,
my sister sings some too. Wejust you know, oh nice. Then
a few years went by and theDirt Band started and they ended up opening
for the Dirt Band and two orthree times. And then Paul Williams has
written the song We've Only Just Begunas a bank commercial. He had driven
(05:02):
into La. He was at thestudio and Lebrea and Sunset, the old
Texas A and M studio, Imean a studio, yes, sir,
and it was the Charlie Chaplin studio. But he was writing this commercial and
somebody said, there's a young coupledownstairs recorded you might want to finish that
(05:25):
as the whole song, and they'lldo it, and they did We've Only
Just Begun and he was able topay for the car that he stole to
get to La. Paul Williams isnow the president of ASCAP. Oh my,
that's crazy. I love that story. That's how that's how the beginnings
(05:45):
start. And that's one of thethings that I think you are famous for,
other than your fabulous musicality and abilityto play banjo, is the fact
that you had you have collaborated withso many different different people over the course
of your career. What is thesecret to a great collaboration with other musicians?
(06:10):
Well, I don't know. Ask. I think the secret to anything
is ask, now, hey,you want to do such and such with
me? It's either yes or no. Right and no. It's just a
form of negotiation. It's no fornow, Let's see if I raise it
(06:36):
whatever, and persistence doing it andnever feel like never feeling like I was
enough to carry it all on myown two. I'm the guy that should
play this, and I want tohear somebody better, get the smarter person
(06:59):
than the room, or you know, you know what I mean. It's
just I think it comes from beinga teenager and a guy named Woody who
taught me how to pitch coins andhow to playpool and beat somebody that's better
than you. And that was afun thing to learn. But he says,
(07:20):
make sure you always play with peoplethat are better, otherwise you won't
play your best. And that's truewith music. That's true with music.
I found out when it came alongand anyway, rambling on it's I asked
(07:42):
Leon Russell. I recorded with acouple of times, and I had just
one time. I just I askedhim. We were playing at Chain's Ballroom
in Tulsa, and I called themup and said, hey, Leon,
can I come by? Well,yeah, bring a couple of the boys
and we'll record some. And wegot there about me and Jimmy Ibodson and
(08:03):
Les Thompson got there about one inthe morning, and we recorded Joshua comes
back home to the Island and playingdrums with Teddy Jack Eddie, who was
a nickname you know who that is, uh, you know at the county
a nickname for Gary Busey. ArryBusey was drummer at first, and he
(08:24):
played a good So that's it's justweird things have. I feel like Forrest
Gump with a banjo. You know. It's like, how did I get
in this picture? Okay, Ican stand, Oh okay, I'll play
a little back and yeah, okay, I'm so now I'll stand in this
(08:45):
pictures with Roy Acuff, oh okay? Or maybe this one was whoever John
Sebastian or uh, Linda Ronstaff andothers. Yeah, I've been very fortunate,
very very fortunate. It's it's I'mso glad that you mentioned that,
(09:07):
because you know we're sitting here thismorning, listening to your music over the
last thirty forty years and reminiscing aboutit, and it dawned on me that
as a drummer, some of mybest friends over the course of time as
musicians, have said, you knowthis guitar that I own here as one
(09:31):
of my best friends, it nevertalks back to me. And I thought,
wonder what John McEwan would say abouthis banjo and the kinship that you've
got with your banjo. Can youdescribe the love affair between you and a
banjo. We're always arguing. Isaid, no, it's not like that.
(09:52):
It's gotta be like I don't know, it's not like that either.
There's more like no, wait aminute, Uh, it's one of respects
that I really appreciate the fact thatit sounds so good and and all that.
It's Uh, that's hard. That'sa good question. It's hard to
(10:13):
come up with a real quick answer. But yeah, it's been there when
I was sick and when I waswell, and now i'm and now now
I'm sick and well. I hada heart attack a couple of months ago,
(10:33):
and I'm in the middle of rehabright now. When uh, it's
going quite well, I'm walking acouple of miles a day and and uh,
things like that, and and it'sso funny. I had this heart
attack right the week before my newalbum came out, The Newsman on Compass
(10:54):
Records, and it's I was gladI had done about thirty interviews before it
came out before I had to goto the hospital because I went to the
hospital and I was like mush forthree weeks. Oh my, Now the
mush is the mush is out nowand I'm getting going. I'm going on
the road in August. Actually,well, congratulations, I'm glad that you
(11:18):
made it. I'm glad you're heretalking to me about Newsman and the significance
of ban Joe's And I read thismorning John that there's approximately a million one
million banjo players across North America,and that just scratched my head about that,
(11:39):
going, why for such a beautifulinstrument. That's a lot of people,
granted, but why are there sofew? Tell me about why you
think that the banjo has still notcaught on and gotten up to the level
of the six string guitar. Thatis something you could say also for the
(12:05):
mandolin. But you know, Idon't know other than it's been considered a
funny instrument. It's something that wasused in a Dixieland band, it was
something that was used in bluegrass alot, for sure, but usually novelty
(12:30):
music, and or often novelty musicfor the banjo in general. And it's
got a different sound. It's percussion, it's it's notes. It doesn't sustain
very well. You know, youcan't go, you can't do a thing
(12:50):
like you stretching strings, carrying thewhole thing. But it's a good question.
I don't know, other than I'mdoing my part to try and get
it in front of people. That'sright. That's done by playing some unusual
(13:11):
things. I played unusual tunings.And sometimes it's a classical song that was
written three hundred years ago that wasfor the Harts record, but it seemed
to fit on the banjo. Andsometimes it is frailing. It's when you're
different style than bluegrass. You brushthe strings and pick them. And it's
(13:35):
on Soldier's Joy, which was onereason, one reason I wanted to record
with their all strugs, and Igot up the nerve to ask them it
was Soldier's Joy. I wanted todo a two part, a two instrument
song with the bass and it wouldbe banjo frailing and banjo picking, and
(13:58):
it works out. One of myfavorite pieces of music and one of girls
too. It's on Circle Be Unbroken? Will the Circle Be Unbroken, which
by the way, is in theGrammy Hall of Fame and the Library of
Congress. That's a big deal.Yeah, that's a big deal. That's
I'm glad you said that. Thankyou. It's it's bigger than big because
(14:22):
effectively it's it's right up there withthe top songs and albums of all time,
and it recognizes it for all theright reasons because there's there was something
magical about it. It was thatmoment in time and you you organized it
and got these people that were sodiversely different together. It was wonderful.
(14:48):
Five days in the studio went likeit seemed like it was five hours one
day with twelve hours and the logsheet has got ten phone li Yeah,
I love it. It was like, wow, yeah, that's just crazy.
So tell me about the songs thatyou love modest I'm sure you love
(15:11):
all them on Newsman, but tellme the ones that you that really kind
of stand out from your ear onthe news band. Yes, sir,
well, thank you for bringing thatup. That was that was the reason
for calling, wasn't it. Yes, sir, you don't have to call
me sir. Oh. I doit out of respect, and I'm a
(15:35):
Southerner, so I just I doit because I was taught that. Yeah.
Well, I would say the Newsmandis one of my favorites because it's
an absolutely true story about a guythat had influenced me by selling newspapers.
That's all he did was seld newspapers, and he was a crippled guy.
(15:56):
He'd hauld those newspapers around on hislittle motorbike and can go to restaurants and
offices and all up and down SunsetBoulevard, and he sold all his papers
apparently every day. And it's aboutthis how I saw him and watched him
and bought a few papers and thingsof that nature. That's one of my
(16:21):
favorite cuts because it's it always takesme back to nineteen sixty seven. But
when I want to go back sixtymore years, I go to nineteen oh
seven and do the Cremation of SamMcGhee, which was written by Robert Robert
Service, and it is really astrange poem. You think it's going to
(16:45):
be all dark and everything, butat the end you find out it's kind
of got a flist to it,and it's funny. The two guys we
were mushing our way over the DawsonTrail talk of your cold part is fold
that still it froze me like adriven nail. And if her eyes we
(17:08):
closed and our life is frozen,so sometimes we couldn't see that. The
only one to whimper was Sam McGhee, and it's on on about their experience,
and it really My sister used tosay it to me when I was
in fifth and sixth grade. Iwould ask her, would you do Sam
(17:30):
McGhee for me, and she'd doit, and she read it out of
her books and that was very nice, I thought. And Old Rivers,
that's the first song I remember hearingon the radio that really really got to
me. It was in nineteen sixtythree and Walter Brennan did it, and
(17:53):
I'd thought of this song often becauseof this message. There were old Rivers
of the guy plowing the ground saidone of these days, I'm going to
climb that mountain. Walked up thereamong the clouds were there ain't no fields
(18:14):
to plow, and there ain't nofields to plow. He plowed fields his
whole life and Knuiba Den is areally moving thing. I like all the
cuts on this. It took metwelve years to put this album together,
and some things aren't on there somethat could have been. And I was
(18:41):
very careful. I wanted to makean album that would appeal to more than
one aspect of people, and itdidn't have to be it had to be
stories. So I had to findthe stories and I found them. One
of them I founders on this albumis the Mountain Wolflewell. I've did that
(19:03):
with a dirt band for thirty yearsin the seventies, eighties and nineties,
and it's a story about a youngkid entering a fiddle contest and much to
the surprise of the crowd and ownVan Wheland, he won. And that
(19:26):
was a fun recording because it wasjust me, a banjo and a fiddle.
I traded off instruments and I recordedit in an old church. And
when I was talking about Nui banDen, I think the Vietnam War one
where this guy sent me a letter, a story, a poem. Well,
(19:51):
it's something he and his brother wrote. His brother had been to Vietnam
and was at this battle of NUIsbab Den, and when he he got
home, he didn't talk about anythingfor fifteen years. And his brother told
me he finally started talking about this, and they wrote this piece, this
(20:11):
song for it. And when Ifound the music, I wanted to put
with it and started reading it.It was really difficult because we were just
boys once expected to act like men. We got off the shop, you
know, we got off the helicopterand they said, don't worry. You
(20:33):
don't have to win. If youwant to make them on soon, just
keep your head low. And youknow, it was just and talks about
the dying men and all that,but it had to be told. I've
had that one sitting around for tenyears. Boy, oh my gosh.
(20:53):
Finally eight years ago I finished it. Eight years later, I finished it
and went looking for another one,and I found it. I found another
one. I founded a couple othersactually, and well do you want to
hear about him? Oh? Well, one of them is written by Henry
(21:19):
Wadsworth Longfellow, who I'd never thoughti'd record anything by. Here I am
saying his words along with the musicof a song called Vacant Chair, which
was written in eighteen sixty six orsixty five about we shall meet and we
(21:40):
shall miss him, There will beone vacant chair, and it's about the
missing guy that got taken out atbattle. And this poem Longfellow wrote was
about the mystery of being killed ina war, kind of about how he
goes from one happy moment to immediatelydeath and not just who the bullet just
(22:08):
killed by surprise, but what happenedto his wife in Massachusetts when she got
the news is also a sad partof the poem. And what's weird is
these two war poems, like Icall them war poems, the Moui Baden
(22:33):
and Yeah and Killed of the Ford, And you can practically interchange some of
the lyrics that it would work becausethey book covered the same futility topic.
Yeah, there's something about that.The way you've woven all of these stories
(22:57):
to gather into this one gift.I call it this record a gift to
us. And sometimes it takes alonger amount of time to find the right
tapestry, doesn't it loog? Whatdoesn't it sometimes take a longer amount of
(23:19):
time to produce a better record becauseyou've been you've been curating these stories for
over ten years, you said someof them, Yeah, and Old Rivers.
I decided to do Old Rivers.I've been thinking about it for fifty
years. Back when I first heardit before I started playing music, I
(23:40):
heard Old Rivers and I thought,I got to record that. I got
to put that on this album.I got to replace I had something that
I thought was weaker. Yeah,I was gonna take off, but I
didn't have anything to go there.Yeah, And anyway, I sat down
on my studio here and recorded thetop to bottom and did it one take
(24:02):
and overdubbed a couple of things andfinished it, mixed it everything three hours
and it's so great. Way couldthey have done some of the others in
three hours? Oh, I don'tknow. I know. I hey,
John, you know that the majorityof America didn't even know about Walter Brennan
(24:23):
and starring on The Real McCoy andwith Richard Crennas. So that's going to
be a new sound for them.I remember listening that to over the radio
and I was I was just Ithink my mom was crying when she heard
Old Rivers because it's got that rule. As she said, there ain't no
field to plow. I mean,it was over. It was a sad
(24:47):
song, but to have Walter Brennansang it and he was at the height
of his career, it was aIt was a very powerful song then and
now you're going to bring it toa new generation. Yeah, with a
different melody and instrumentation. What's funnyis Leon Russell played on the one with
Walter Brennan. I didn't know thatuntil he told me years ago. Since
(25:12):
anyway, Leon was a good friend, but Old Rivers was It was one
that really made move me too,still does. What was the first time
I seen Old Rivers? I don'tknow. It seems like that guy was
always around. It's been his wholelife doing hard work, walking that cloud
(25:36):
ground. You know. That saysa lot in four versus and four lines,
you know the hmm. Well,I've got a few more questions for
you, and they are related tosome friends here, musicians in Austin and
around the nation. And I toldhim that I was going to get a
(26:00):
chance to talk with you today,and so here goes some two questions coming
from musicians. The first one isabout band dynamics. They want to know,
you know that the band, thedynamics within the Dirt Band changed over
the years, and they want toknow what was your experience like to leave
the band and then come back intothe band. Leaving the band was a
(26:25):
good decision because they weren't doing musicthat I liked, and for me it
was a good I wanted to playmore of different types of music. They
it was a democratic situation. Iwould always get voted down four to one,
you know, And well sometimes itwas three to two because I had
(26:48):
some one guy on my side,but usually four to one. So most
of the things I recorded that wereinstrumentals were solo I ended up doing putting
the piece on an album or usingal Garth and the duo due And it's
(27:11):
just that you don't have to doit, but you better like the overall
thing, and I did. Iliked the overall effects of a group.
We'd go on stage, and Iliked certain parts of the show. We'd
get to and people would be ontheir feet, they'd be happy, they'd
be doing all kinds of stuff thatwas good, and I liked that part.
(27:34):
But yeah, in late nineteen eighties, it kind of wore out for
me, and I let it gofor ten years and the manager wrote everybody
(27:55):
a letter that says, you needwe need to have John back in the
band. Worry about less money andmoney is going to go up. Okay,
well good? And I had saidto him, I will stay in
the group if we recorded Nashville witha Nashville record label and do country music
(28:18):
and not do this pseudo rock androll. That the previous Jealousy album was
the lowest selling album ever, butI mean maybe ever, maybe not just
the dirt bad history, but itwas. It has some good things on
(28:42):
it, but only had a threeI think. But getting into the country
music and within a couple of yearswe've had long hard road our first number
one hit. Oh and Jimmy Ebdsonhad to be back in the band and
that all worked out, yes,And the dynamics is who's the leader.
(29:07):
Don't take anything you know about themusic business to a band meeting. When
you're talking about music. You knowwho gets the publishing and who, well,
you just want to do that becauseyou wrote it, and you know,
try and be supportive of each other. And as far as band dynamics,
(29:30):
be happy with being unhappy because itwill come, it will also go,
and you'll be happy again with theway things are going. Possibly,
And it's worth it because it's it'ssomething you can only get with a group,
(29:52):
some of the effects on the audience. So pick your mi curial good.
That's right, that's right, Ithink. One other final question from
her friend was about when Jackson Brownwas in the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band,
and it sort of relates to theband dynamics. What was your experience like
(30:15):
when he was in there. Hewas there for five shows and that's it.
He one of the group to backup his songs and he played along
with the band. And it wasa very young group, you know,
sixteen seventeen years old, eighteen nineteenand Less called me Less and I had
(30:41):
had a band previously, a bluegrassband, and he says, hey,
John, come check out the groupat the music store. We're calling it
a nitty Gritty Dirt band, andI think there's room for you. And
that's when I joined. It wastwo months after the band, and it
(31:02):
was in August of actually to Augustsecond at noon. It was a lot
of fun, a good a goodfifty years. Well it's actually a good
forty years good the fifth m Well, we thank you John so much for
(31:26):
being on Legends today and for yourmusic contribution over the course of many decades.
And I'll just kind of tell youthat I think your contribution to music
is significant and this last album,news Man, it is a significant gift
to us out here in as apart of your fan base. So thank
(31:47):
you so much for being on ourprogram and for the difference you continue making.
We wish you the best of healthand sounds like you are on your
way back. Yeah, and thankyou for your support. There's it's difficult
to get your projects out there.If you're solo and you've been in a
band and you go solo, youknow it is always difficult. Loggins the
(32:12):
Messina drew ten thousand people, Messinadraws five hundred, Loggins draws maybe one
thousand, two thousand. But similardynamics happened with people. And so if
you're in a band, make sureyou like it. Don't forget Hunter Thompson's
quote, the music business the longand narrow plastic hallway full of pimps and
(32:38):
thieves, where good men diect dogs. There's also a negative size, and
so it's so true. Thank youagain, and as we close out this
show as usual, we wish everyone of you's success, but on your
way to significance. Thank you,I'm great. Mister bowl Jangles, mister
(33:07):
Bould Dangles, mister bowl Jangles Dance
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.