“They’re tracking you”- Test Pilot Dan Isbell breaks silence on UAPs and Unexplained Propulsion

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It not only went by me, but it stopped instantaneously.
I mean there was no like slow down, there was
no change in attitude. It just went from streaking along
to think and it's just sitting there totally stationary.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Dan has been keen to share this story for many years,
and he has chosen today to actually come out and
actually tell us what exactly he saw in disguise above
the UK in nineteen.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Eighty as a test pilot. You flew over seventy aircraft.
How many different blocks of the F sixteen? Did you
actually fly.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
All of them?

Speaker 3 (00:39):
All of them?

Speaker 1 (00:41):
But the moment that I looked up and consciously thought
that's a craft, the light, the laser light went out
and then the craft went to like it expanded a
plasma ball around and George, now it's seriously He just
leaned in and he looked me right across the table

(01:04):
on the eyeball eyeball, and he said, they're tracking you.
That kind of gave me a little who's well, why
are you tracking me?

Speaker 3 (01:17):
Welcome to Later File. I'm Chris Lado and I am
truly honored to join Professor Simon for this interview. A
special collaboration bringing you what I believe is a historic moment.
Dan isbel a retired Air Force test pilot who flew
over seventy aircraft from F one to eleven's screaming two

(01:38):
hundred feet off the ground at night, carrying nuclear weapons
to U two's brushing the edge of space. He is
going public after forty five years of silence, with not
just one amazing up close UAP encounter, but four. His
nineteen eighty Upper hay Fford Triangle UAP sighting was the

(02:03):
first night of Rendelsham Forest. That is England's roswell, and
that changes a lot, and I'm completely humbled that he
chose us to share it. This is the full unfiltered interview.
The first half is epic aviation stories, one after another, unbelievable.

(02:23):
I mean, he flew the Goodyear Blimp, he was a
test director of the F twenty two. He knew about
the BT program before anyone outside of special access programs
knew it. He's worked in Area fifty one and he
was a test director for directed energy weapons. I mean,
the guy knows everything there is to know about aviation, electronics, weapons, stealth,

(02:50):
everything about aircraft helicopters. So I left that aviation gold
in there. If you want to skip right to the
jaw dropping UAP stories, then go about halfway through. I'll
put a link. Simon's UAP Deep Dive is live on
his channel, so check that out. Thank you for being here.
So much couldn't be done without your support. Please hit

(03:12):
the light button and consider subscribing. Let's get to this
historic interview.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Hey, everybody, welcome. This is a very historic moment. We
have Dan, Isabel and Chris Lito. Dan saw a UAP
sighting in Upper Hayford, which is in the UK, in
nineteen eighty, which I think actually changes history. The date
of it coincides with the Reruns Forest incident and you
really need to hear what Dan has to say today.

(03:46):
Dan has been keen to share this story for many years,
and he has chosen today to actually come out and
actually tell us what exactly he saw in disguise above
the UK in nineteen eighty. What we're going to do,
because Dan is an amazing US Air Force veteran and
test pilot, Chris is going to start by asking Dan

(04:06):
about his flying career and you will soon understand what
an amazing gentleman Dan really is.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
Well, thank you, Simon, and thank you so much for
involving me in this collaboration. I'm extremely excited to talk
to Dan. So welcome Dan. Thank you for your courage
and speaking out on this and so can you just
go through quickly your history, your background. I know it's
long and storied.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
I was fortunate enough because I couldn't afford to go
to college otherwise, I was fortunate enough to get a
full ride Air Force ROTC scholarship. Didn't know about the academy,
so I didn't even think of applying to that, but
I had picked Georgia Tech as the school I wanted
to go to to get an aerospace engineering degree to
help prepare me for my ultimate goal, which was to

(04:55):
be a test pilot. Now at the time that I'm
thinking all this, I never t airplane, never been flying,
never even set foot on an airport. But it was
something that I became aware of by watching an old
black and white TV commercial that came on at the
end of the day when there were like three TV

(05:16):
stations and they would go off the air at about
eleven o'clock. And before they went off the air, sometimes
it'd be a flag flying and maybe a star spangled
banner playing. But this particular night, it was an F
one o four taking off looked like maybe out of
Edwards Air Force Base with a Chase airplane and the
photo Chase was filming the F one o four and

(05:39):
as he's climbing out, there's this beautiful music and a
deep voice narrator who's narrating the John gilespie McGhee junior
poem high Flight. Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds
of Earth and danced on after silver wings. And so
the airplane is literally choreographing the kinds of things that

(06:00):
were in that poem in flight, and at the very
end of it pulls up and does a zoom way
up into the dark blackness. But you of the aircraft
was very capable of doing some time to climb and
altitude records, and somehow in that moment I said, that's
what I want to do, That's what I want to be. Yeah,
that's probably late eighth grade, early ninth grade when that

(06:24):
event happened. And everybody that I told that's laughed at
me and said you'll never do it. But then I
was fortunate to get an Air Force LTC scholarship could
go anywhere I wanted to go. In nineteen seventy three,
the number one rated aerospace engineering school in the country
was the Guggenheim Aerospace School at Georgia Tech, and so

(06:45):
I chose Georgia Tech, and I had my scholarship, could
go anywhere as long as I had an ROTC program,
and they had that there. And then they turned me down,
so they wouldn't accept me. So I drove down and
made an appointment with the Idean of Admissions and I said,
why did you turn me down? And he said, well,

(07:07):
you know how our minimum requirement is two years of
high school calculus, and you didn't even finish all twelve grades.
You graduated early. So I said, well, even if I'd
stayed for all twelve years and not graduated my eleventh year,
they didn't even teach calculus in my high school in Tennessee.
So I said, don't you have like a tutoring program

(07:30):
for your athletes? And he said yeah, and so I'll
be there every night. And then I had to motivate
him to say, you know, I don't think you understand
I'm on an Air Force RTC scholarship. I want to
be a pilot. And the reason I'm coming to this
school is I want to be a test pilot later.
And if I don't make at least a three point

(07:51):
zero grade point average every quarter that I'm here, They're
going to pull me out of this school and then
I'll be enlisted because I'm already basically an enlisted reserve
as an ROTC student, and I'll end up maybe working
on the airplanes I want to fly. So right now,
there's only one thing standing between me and my ultimate goal,

(08:13):
and it's you. And he got his attention, and I said,
will you at least give me a chance. You won't
find somebody more motivated. I guarantee I'll make an a
first quarter, and after I make an a first quarter,
will not be on at least a level playing filled
with every other student that's going into second quarter calculus too.

(08:33):
And you had to agree after you could do that.
So I said, well watch me, well, give me a chance,
and he did. So that's kind of how I got
started on this whole thing and went to pilot training
at Williams Air Force Base. But I had an ed
delay from the time I graduated with my degree in
aerospace engineering was commissioned because the Vietnam War. They were

(08:54):
still winding down all the pilots that were active for Vietnam,
and people were not getting to go straight to pilot training.
They're having to just take a delay. So I didn't
know really what I was going to do at first,
but somebody from the graduate school approached me and said,
we'd like to put you on a full assistant ship

(09:18):
if you'll come and work your master's in aerospace engineering
and do a project that were funded under NASA for
And the project was the turbine blades in the F
fifteen F one hundred. The F one hundred engine were
failing fairly frequently and it was causing catastrophic engine failure
and sometimes could cause dual engine failure if that turbino

(09:40):
blade slung to the other side. And so they it's
a what's called a Mode III stress failure because there's
tension in the blade, there's torsion in the blade, and
there's a thermal gradient. So he said, you need to
create a ground test apparatus that will duplicate those conditions

(10:00):
and then test a number of turbine blades to failure
and we'll send those off to the metallurgists. So they
can try to figure out how to change how they
manufacture the blades, make them Tougher's a lot of fun.
And I told the graduate advisor, Okay, I'll come, but
I only I'm not going to delay go into pilot

(10:23):
training if I get orders to pilot training. And I'm
withdrawing from school. And sure enough, three quarters of the
way finishing my Master of Aerospace Engineering, I got orders
to Williams. So when I said, well, I'm withdrawing because
you remember what happened to Bob Roach. He was a
guy a couple or three years ahead of me in
ROTC and he wanted to be an astronaut Sunday, so

(10:46):
he actually asked for an ed delay so he could
finish his PhD. And he worked through his master's and
PhD in record time. His wife worked on the site
help put him through the day he got his PhD awarded,
the Air Force canceled his pilot training slot and sent
him waters to the Air Force Institute of Technology to
be a professor. And I thought they guy suicide. So

(11:11):
that made me paranoid of any kind of I didn't
want the Air Force to even know that I was
doing any work at Georgia Tech. But they paid me
well and I had a nice apartment and I really
enjoyed the academics there. But the day I got the
orders pilot training, I just said, don't say a word
of the Air Force. I'm headed there. So that's kind

(11:32):
of how things worked out for me. And I started
pilot training in March of seventy eight and graduated in
seventy nine oh four out of Williams Air Force Base,
and who was fortunate enough to get a pilot ratings

(11:53):
for fiber pilots, which is what I really desired. They
didn't really let us have any choice, like, hey, do
you want to fly? So I was just hoping for
a fighter. I didn't care really just a fighter because
I wanted to be a fighter pilot first, then an
experimental test pilot.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah. That's the easiest way to become a test pilot, right,
is to go fighters first.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yes. I mean we had test pilots go through the
school with all types of backgrounds, but fighter pilot meant
that you'd probably been a fighter test pilot, and I
really didn't want to be like a C one forty
one test pilot or a B fifty two test pilot,
though I've flown all those aircraft now. So anyway, our

(12:42):
fighter block came down. There was one F fifteen, and
the guy that got that assignment was a Wizzo who
had done well and gone to pilot training, and he
was an F four back seater and they sent him
to become an F fifteen pilot. The other six fighters
were all F one elevens.

Speaker 4 (13:03):
Hard works hard bark swing wing.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
And they had never done that before because the F
one eleven was considered such a complex, difficult aircraft because
it was the first with variable sweep wings, and in
the F one eleven it was totally manual, not automatic
based on AOA and airspeed like the Tomcat, which succeeded

(13:28):
the one eleven. The F one eleven B was supposed
to be for the Navy on the Mcamary's program, and
it was a little too heavy and failed to make
wind over deck requirements prepare your landing, so they abandoned
the joint program and went off with the Grumman to
do the Tomcat. But the F one eleven had the
first terrain following automatic terrain following radar system.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, and how low was that? How low would you
fly over the land and how fast.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Uh, well, it was capable of flying you at two
hundred feet hard ride above the train which is a
very late pool, and a zero G bunt over the
cleric because this is designed for night or any weather.
So you do anything on the radar and the stick
doesn't move. When you're in automatic train falling radar, the

(14:21):
augmentation control system is flying the airplane and the stick
doesn't move. You guard the stick in case you need
to move it, and it would execute thirty degree bank
turns and you could actually add a little bit more
and do up to forty five. And that was kind
of the limits of the radar safety limits for what
it could do to do automatic frame falling rador. So

(14:42):
the aircraft was capable of one point two mock or
even above. We weren't must as much speed limited as
we were temperature limited. So we got a little count
down timer that when we got above a certain temperature
you had like three minutes or slow down or you're
going to really do some damage. So, uh my two

(15:04):
point five and I've been out to that a few times.
At altitude, the aircraft was a big though. If you're
not supersonic, try to go above thirty four thousand feet
that was pretty much service ceiling and you're you're almost
on the back side of the power pareve to fly
subsonically at those ALP dudes.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
Okay, so can you can you describe what it's like
to fly I'm guessing supersonic at night or in the
weather down low. It just seems like that would be terrifying.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
It was the first time I ever did it. I
was trained at a mountain Home Air Force BACE in Idaho,
and so we had a lot of good, just open
terrain that we had low level roots on. But I
remember the first night TFI mission, which we of course
had the anti collision beacon, so it's rotating red beacon

(15:54):
on the bottom.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
And TFR is terrain following radar, So that's really the
radars looking out in front of the aircraft and then
the aircraft's automatically going up and down.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, it's it's scanning eight degrees up and thirty two
degrees down and it's presenting that image on something called
an E squared scope. We was called it the East
scope for sure, and it had a curvy looking line
and you had to make sure the terrain returns coming
in at the line always moved over the terrain and

(16:28):
kept you safe. So it's a little bit of a
learning furve just to know how to read the device
and make sure that the airplane is still picking up
the terrain properly and going to keep clear of it.
And to back up that. The main radar that the
Wizzo Weapons System's officer was using, it's a side to
side suite doing ground mapping, and he was actually looking

(16:53):
for opening shadows because that meant you're below this mountain
and it's just getting bigger and it's just shaving everything
out beyond it. So that was kind of the backup
the crosstalks. So side by side, I can't see his
radar because it kind of blinds the lines my night vision.
So he's got a hood and he's looking in that,
and I'm watching the east scope and kind of monitoring

(17:16):
the aircraft's performance, checking engine instruments and so forth. So
the first time I'm low altitude two hundred feet, flying
at night, dark night, moonless night, and suddenly the beacon
is flashing off of both mountains that are both sides
of me them I'm in a valley and I was

(17:37):
so disorienting to have this red light flashing and it
just looked like we were like right there at it.
So yeah, very striking, but you know, you kind of
got used to it. I could. I guess the way
my mind works, I'm I just absorbed everything about how
the aircraft was engineered, because as an aerospace engineer, I

(17:58):
kind of respected the fact that it had full wing,
double slotted flaps, Fowler flaps just like a seven four seven.
It had leading edge slats on the entire wing, so
the slats deployed out, the flaps deployed, and their slotted
foul and very efficient flaps. And it overdoubled the winging

(18:20):
area size so that we could take off and land
pretty slow for such a heavy, big airplane. And so
I adapted to all of that very quickly, and then
I was never alarmed any further because you know, it's
just going to be part of the mission. So I
enjoyed flying it. It was. It was the smoothest airplane

(18:42):
that low level that I've ever flown, because it was
one hundred and seventy five pounds per square foot wing loading.
Compare that to the F sixteen, which I have a
lot of time and sixty four pounds per square foot
wing loading, And it's a big difference fill bumps and
stuff from the F sixteen low level and in the
F one eleven it was just called it the Cadillac.
You just had a smooth eying them, very long range

(19:03):
cable of going all over.

Speaker 3 (19:05):
That's right. I remember they called it the Cadillac. But
you as a test pilot, you flew over seventy aircraft
I believe, is that correct? And I guess how many
different blocks of the F sixteen did you actually fly.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
All of them?

Speaker 3 (19:20):
All of them?

Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, Because my last flying assignment was to be the
squadron commander of the five to fourteenth Flight Test Squadron
at Hill Air Force Base in Utah Wow. And that
at the time until Brat came along. That was a
detachment from Edward's Air Force Base. And we had an

(19:42):
instrument at F sixteen that wasn't blocked in a model.
It's up here behind me and the model of it
it was painted white and orange, never had a gun
in it. Instead of the gun, it had all of
these sensors and wiring and recording devices for doing flight tests.
That was the primary airplane that we use for testing

(20:05):
every OFP for the Garden Reserve when they were still
flying the A and B model F sixteens.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
Yeah. So yeah, that ofps are the operational flight program
flight program. Yeah, that's right. So it's the actual computer
code that our jets use. And now we're flying up
to Block sixties. Well we sell Block sixties, so there's
Block ten, Block twenty, Block thirty, Block forty, Block fifties.

(20:31):
I flew Block thirties and Block forties. Actually never the
block fifty, so now we have a lot more blocks.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
Yeah. So the only way I flew the blocks the
other blocks because I flew the the ten to fifteen,
the twenty five, thirty, and thirty two. While I was
at Eglin Air Force Base. That was my first test assignment.
I had test bout school, and then when we were

(21:00):
at Hill, we had a secondary mission of doing functional
check flights for the depot. And that was the only
F sixteen depot in the country, so we had all
the blocks and models come through there from one time
or another and when we flew them for functional check flights. Now,
this is not an experimental flight test, so it doesn't
require a test pods course, you know you've probably done

(21:22):
functional check flights yourself.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
Yeah. I was a functional check flight pilot in Alaska,
and that's really you just a jet that's gone for
serious kind of work, maybe to get something replaced that
you're kind of worried about. They give a pilot to
go and run it through the ringer and that's where
you see the funnest parties. You go really fast right
at the end of the runway and then you just

(21:45):
put it on its tail and goes straight up and
you're testing. It's not very comfortable at all. You're testing
the cabin pressure system and it'll just blow out your
ears essentially as you go straight up to altitude and
you go to pass supersonic and you do all these
crazy things. So yeah, quite interesting.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, So at the depot one time, I just Allison.
I got to deliver a couple of jets, me and
my up officer because the unit's pilots were all over
in uh in the no fly zone defense over a
rack after a desert storm and they didn't have anybody
to come down and pick up their airplanes. They've been

(22:26):
finished at depot, so and of course you know, after
they do all that work. They put you know, fresh paint,
you know, new primer, new new paint, so they really
look nice coming out of depot. And we dunloaded up
with a couple of wing tanks to three sixties on
stations four and six, and so we said, well, yeah,
we'll we'll bring them up. Can you send your tanker

(22:49):
down because there was a forget if it was guard
a reserve casey one THI unit.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
To Allison, Yeah it's a reserve.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
So they thank her down and we rejoined on the
tanker over Vancouver and then we just flew, uh you
know with the tanker until we got to Alaska. But
it was winter time and it was pretty overcast and
it was snowing really hard. And I also don't know,
you're very familiar with so we, uh, we get up

(23:20):
there and we say goodbye to the tanker and I asked,
I asked FAA for a clearance for us to to
send down to be coaltitude with Mount McKinley and uh,
because the peak of McKinley was sticking out above the
clouds that day, and so we actually circled it a
couple of times, uh, you know, just looking at it
off our left wing tip and then said, okay, well,

(23:42):
if it's time to go, go land these things. So
we put ourselves in right our trail and I'm flying
the ils into Alison and they went. The weather was
really bad in that moment. It was blowing hard. The
ceiling was probably actually a little below the islands minimums.

(24:04):
The snow. The snow plow had only plowed out enough
room for the sixteen atlant. It didn't plow the whole runway.

Speaker 5 (24:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
No, it's a giant runway. They don't do that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yeah, so this narrow strip. As soon as I broke out,
and I'm counting one potato, two potato before I try
to do a go around on that. But I go, no,
I wasn't that low. But I quickly go that's a
taxiway because it looked like a taxiway compared to a runway.

(24:34):
And I looked over, No, there's the taxiway, and yeah,
that is the runway. But they've only plowed out this
little bit. So I radio back to my number two
and I landed just find and turned off as center
field there and the plow took us all the way
back to our parking spot. And because it was snowing
so hard and so cold. They opened the doors and

(24:56):
you know where the back of the hangar is, Like
normally they back the get they didn't want to take
the time to do that, so we just pulled in
nose first, shut down the engine, and they shut the
hangar door behind us. So it's an interesting experience, but yeah,
it was really fun talking about the zoom profile. Of

(25:17):
course we did that every sortie for the functional check flights,
and as you mentioned, it's very abrupt because for one thing,
the engine if they didn't put everything back together right,
either the ECS could get misonducted, so you had the

(25:38):
high pressure and the low pressure system reversed. I had
that happen a few times. But the most important thing
was once you put it into full after burner for
your takeoff role, you didn't want to touch the throttle
again until you got to enough altitude that you could
do a safe flame out landing. So the most risky

(25:58):
part was we didn't.

Speaker 6 (26:00):
Know how the engine was going to perform, but as
long as it came up to ab okay like the
eighty five percent check and then the ab then we
continued the takeoff roll got airborne pretty quickly.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Because these airplanes had no missile rails. They were just
painted in primer, so there was no paint, so we
didn't have the way to paint. We had nothing out there. Stubby,
but just as clean as it could be. Like we
don't ever get to fly them like that, you know,
when their combat could figure. So these airplanes leaped off

(26:32):
the ground and anywhere from seven hundred to seven hundred
and fifty feet take off, roll yeah, and then it
was all you could do to suck the gear in
the well before you nuts.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
And then you just continued to just shy of super
sign because the runway at Hill was twelve thousand feet off,
so about three quarters down we would hit that point
where we need to snap up into the vertical. So
you would go for one D cruising along at about
fifty feet off the runway, and then you just pull

(27:06):
full limiter. Yep, you pulled nine to nine and a
half and then you go to zero g to hold
the nator and you go straight and straight up to
the ZENI excuse me, and you're pointing nine degrees straight up,
and of course the seatback had thirty degrees reclined, so
if you lebs downhill and that could give people a
tumbling sensation. I never had that problem. But anyway, what

(27:31):
I was gonna get to is the block fifty clean
like that was so overpowered that I had to pull
up sooner than normal because it was already about to
go supersonic before it got to three quarters of the runway.
So I snapped into the vertical and of course it
doesn't continue to accelerate under nine gs. The speeds they

(27:54):
basically stayed still. But then as soon as I went
to zero g straight up, it started its accelerating.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
So you're going to go supersonic straight up.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
I won't supersonic at for thousand few.

Speaker 3 (28:05):
I bet they'd love that. You must love that area.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Boom is now because it's you know, not much about Makwan,
but the sonic boom is.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
Part of it goes sideways.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yeah, so I never intersected the ground, so they didn't
hear it. Okay, but yeah, it was Uh, it was exciting.
I did up to three of those a day sometimes
for when the depot would get behind, and I had
five times I had to do a real flame out
landing because.

Speaker 4 (28:35):
The engine did fail wow fully gout.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
The first time, we moved the throttle at thirty thousand feet, which,
as you know from the functional check flight profile, it's
truly your point where to do anything. Then you go
to forty three thousand, and then do you.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
Do the supersonic run? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, we did that across the Great Salt Lake, and
then went out onto the Utah Test and Training Range
and went down to fifteen thousand or eleven thousand or
whatever said to do the najie sustained turns, and then
we'ld do all the air to ground and aired air
mode checkouts and.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
The landing gear and all that stuff. Yeah. So how
was it landing the flameouts? Wow? So that's where your
engine fails and you have to land it as a glider.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, So we trained a lot for that because we
knew that was a risk factor, and in fact, on
every normal sort of where the engine's working good, I'd
always save a little bit of gas to come back
and practice and mesfos every time.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
I flew simulated flame out. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, because so that it's just second nature. You know,
you don't have to think about it doing site picture
all that. So it wasn't difficult because you know, I'm
starting from thirty thousand feet on the functional check flight,
so I've got plenty of sporrow room. And we did
all of that stuff over the runway and only on
a clear day. Yeah, because if well we've lost all
of our instruments and stuff, because sometimes there will be

(29:56):
a major electrical problem, then we need to be able
to do everything just usually.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
And you had a giant runway too, that helped a lot.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, those all worked out, Okay, I got them all
down safely there.

Speaker 3 (30:11):
That's amazing.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Well, yeah, it was. I loved I loved the F sixteen.
It's as I know you you do as well. It's
just it's like a magic carpet ride. That's the most
amazing airplane of any of the things I flew, in
terms of just the thrill of flying it. Flying the
U two was was very challenging, probably the most hands
on pilotage workload that I'd ever endured. Landing it real bear,

(30:39):
because you know, it's I can't see it, yeah off,
and you can't see where it goes a long nose.
You're in the spacesuit, got the pressure homet on and stuff,
so very limited visibility, which is why you have another
YouTube pilot in a chase vehicle for both your takeoff
and your landing. But yeah, that was that was fun, exciting.

(31:00):
I didn't watch your touching goos on it because the
landing was so challenging. I did it correctly every time, unfortunately,
but I thought, you know, I'm gonna do this again,
do this again. So by the time I got out
of the airplane at Bill it was a hot summer day.
I probably had a quart of sweat inside that pressure suit.
I was so grained. But it was thrilling to be

(31:23):
up there at the classified altitudes and see the curvature
of the Earth very clearly, see kind of that transition
between the atmosphere and space.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yeah, you met your astronaut wings. Yes, do you have
astronaut wings?

Speaker 1 (31:35):
Then no?

Speaker 3 (31:37):
Oh, okay, that's just a rum.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
But of course, for many, many years, the only way
to become an astronaut was you have become a test
pilot first, and well a lot of fighter pilot that
became test pilots became astronauts. And in fact I had
gone to Johnson's Space Center during the early part of
my best job at Egland, which was my first time

(32:02):
at that of testpau school and had some interviews and
kind of talked to a lot of astronauts and was
kind of thinking about do I want to go do that.
I get back and I'm flying the S sixteen one
morning at Eglin and suddenly they switched off the weather
information on the big screen and put up CNN and
it was a Challenger blowing up. So the Challenger disaster

(32:24):
caused them to take a hiatus for a few years.
And they had hired so many astronauts because they thought
they would get to two sorties a month, so twenty
four flights a year, and I know as a sea
of astronauts when I was there, I supposed, poor guys
aren't going to fly it all in space for a
long time, so they're just going to go fly the

(32:44):
NASA T thirty eights around and talk to high schools
and colleges and try to do the pr thing for NASA.
And I said, I don't really want to do that.
I'm really having fun doing flight desks. So that sort
of sealed it for me. But I did later go
to the test Pot school and instruct and I was
in I had a couple of different courses. I taught pedo, statics,

(33:08):
which was a very mathematically complex and not linear thing
because of what happens to air pressures as you transition
from subscident to supersioning. So it was not a course
that people really loved to learn. Well, I said, I'll
teach it, and I had a lot of fun. I

(33:30):
really enjoyed teaching always had. I enjoyed being an instructor pilot.
When I was operational, I was the standard al flight examiner.
But yeah, the the other thing that they had me doing,
they had me create a brand new course for logistics
test in engineering because we had that was a neglected
thing and as we were getting ready to do the

(33:53):
uh the B two in the test, I hadn't been
revealed to the public yet, But anyway, I wanted to
be able to have people trained on how to plan
for and test for good logistics like the maintenance procedures
and wasn't easy to maintain.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
And it's so yeah for the stealth on that I
can imagine. But then you after that, even your air
Force career, your long and storied air Force career, so
certainly flew more aircraft than anyone I know, way more
than me. I flew four and then you ended your
career as a squadter commander of a test squadron at Hill,

(34:31):
so obviously very credible. But then you're coming, you're bringing
your story out now, and that's after you retired from
directed weapons right, directed energy weapons research.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah, after I was a commander for three years at Hill,
got selected to go to the National Defense University, specifically
the Industrial College of the Armed Forces, and so that's
been Fort McNair and Washington, DC, Downtown d C. So
I reported there. That was a one year school. I

(35:05):
also did advance. They asked me to do the advanced
course for program management, so that's like the senior course.
I'd done the other one so that I could be
the test manager for the F sixteen a few few
years early, like in ninety one to ninety four, and
so I did the advanced course for that at the

(35:25):
Defense Systems Management College, and I majored in Advanced Manufacturing
at IICAP and that was actually a credited degree that
we learned from that school. And immediately after that, I
was on the group commander list. So I was expecting
maybe I'd go be a group commander somewhere, but instead,

(35:47):
all of a sudden, I found out that I need
to put on a civilian code tie and go over
to interview at the Department of Defense at the Pentagon,
and I'll be working for the Tack Air Vision of
Program Analysis and Evaluation. And my job was going to
be an operation assistance analysts, research and ANA analysts. And

(36:13):
I didn't have a degree in that, but of course,
you know, a very big science background. I found out
from what then became my boss. He said, we've never
hired a test pilot before in this position, but because
the F twenty two is in development, I need somebody
in here that can help me understand it. So I said, okay,
and I took that job, and they didn't allow me

(36:35):
to wear my uniform at all. In the Pentagon. I
had to wear I had to buy a whole wardrobe,
you know. So I had to have a coat and
tie every day. So they said, you don't represent the
Air Force. Now you're representing the Department of Defense. You're
working for the Secretary of Defense, and so we're going
to have you working on various programs, not just ones
in your service. In fact, I worked on the F

(36:56):
eighteen super Hornet program for the Navy at time when
they were having some real serious wing drop issues, so
I really looked into that and talked a lot in
the Navy, and I had a few other minor programs.
Mostly the attack air was going to be aircraft, so
Navy and Air Force predominantly some Marine, and I did

(37:16):
that on the control tour for three years, and then
after that they they assigned me to be the senior
program manager for the F twenty two, So I Patterson
and I was in charge of the F twenty two
as we were beginning the flight test program, and I
was also the I ran the System Safety Group because

(37:39):
they wanted somebody in a flight suit to go to
Nellis because you know, they were trying to spin up
the nell skys for IoT and E and they were
going to get their first eight airplanes after we sort
of have finished doing a lot of the work with
Edwards with the Combined Test Force.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
So yeah, Nellis is the headquarters early of the combat
AVI and so that's OT and e's operational test and evaluation.
So yeah, doing the combat testing basically.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
And then after that job, they moved me over to
the Air Force Research Lab and they put me in
the chief of all of the weapons systems programs, so
that was Connecticut DI Record Energy. But of course I
had had a lot of experience doing the kinetic weapons
and testing them at Egglin and taking them out to
the limits. We used to use the one eleven to

(38:33):
take the new weapons out to their maximum cleared air
speed and make sure that they formed. So I had
a lot of supersonic at nine hundred and fifty nine
miles per hour, treetop high one hundred feet over the
target and dropping the weapons as fast as they were
cleared to go to.

Speaker 3 (38:53):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
Those were fun sorties because the one eleven could do
multiple passes like that. We had to synchronize between a
chase helicopter that's taking the static pictures close up from
the helicopter of the weapon separation, and then we had
a T thirty eight safety and photo chase, so the
guy in the back of the T thirty eight has
got the camera and that is basically safety chase if

(39:17):
anything goes wrong with my airplane. But the T thirty eight,
of course couldn't go that fast down low, so the
teeth had a time of turn out in front of
me so that my aircraft would and at just the
right point, so we always did a practice run to
make sure that they had their marks and their timings down,
and yeah, I would. I had to get subsonic very

(39:41):
quickly after dropping the weapon, so it was speed breaks,
which the main landing gear door is the speed break,
so it's very effective. When you open it up. You
don't have any speed breaks from the gears down because
that's now in a trailing position, so it doesn't drag
it rue way. But the airplane was going that fast.
You go boards, throw the wings full up, and watch

(40:07):
the airspeed until it gets subsonic, and then you go
around and you go up to like ten or fifteen
thousand feet, and then you make a bags turn and
then you just put it down about thirty five or
forty degrees nose low and full aft, burner wings full aft,
and off you go and timing that final turn. Because
we're not doing any of that on auto anything. This
is all hand flying. And it used to seem to

(40:29):
me in the airplane like it took about three minutes,
but then I watched a real time video camcorder recording
from the range tower of the actual thing, and it
actually took fifteen seconds, not three minutes. I started to think,
why is that? And then I started to study about

(40:50):
what happens to the brain and the processing, Like if
you're ever in a car accident or something, your brain
will like put it everything in slow motion because it's
hyper processing. And I realized that that's called temporal distortion.
And I was putting my brain into temporal distortion for

(41:12):
all of those supersonic weapon deliveries at one hundred to
two hundred feet above the ground. But I didn't know
it at the time. I just didn't recognize it as that.

Speaker 4 (41:21):
Wow, that's kind of cool.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
The stuff that you get to do.

Speaker 3 (41:25):
That's amazing, man. And the last question before we get
to I think what all the viewers really want to
hear also is your up story. The main question always
get is how fast did you go? What was the
fastest you went?

Speaker 1 (41:40):
Down low? It would be mock one point three, up high,
mock two point five a few times. And I flew
the F fifteen and I went supersonic in it and
F four I had lots of models of the F
four CD, nothing but the RF four C and they

(42:04):
were mocked two plus capable, kind of like the F sixteen.
So I've been in many of those actually had a
canopy explode. The pressure seals exploded at forty two thousand
feet at Edward's Air Force Base, and an F four
C that actually had repair patches in it from gunshot
holes from Vietnam, and so it was an explosive decompression.

(42:32):
I mean I couldn't see the total cloud and I
ended up with the bins from that. So I had
to go on the Beach Naval Hospital and me put
in a deep Sea six atmospher's chamber. It took two
rides in the chamber to get the nitrogen finally out
of my system, but I recovered and got to go

(42:53):
back to form. Eventually a flight sergeant had to fly
with me. We used to see one thirty so he
could fly with me and make sure I was okay
to fly against he could clear me back. And that
was in the middle of test pilt school, so I
could have gone terribly one. But then towards the end
of test pot school, I'm in a pressure suit that's
going to hold me at most at thirty nine thousand
feet altitude in the suit, and I'd had to be

(43:16):
for forty two thousand. But the difference is if you
pressure breathe oxygen for an hour before you go fly
to YouTube to help get fifty percent of nineteen out
of your system. That's kind of cool, wow, I asked you.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
Yeah, I did not know it was that high, thirty
nine thousand feet. That's how they offered.

Speaker 1 (43:36):
Me a job. After I flew the U two for
the team, small team of people came down from the
SR seventy one guys and they said, we like to
have an aerospace engineering test pilot student on staff, and
you'd fly the SR seventy one like the rest of us,

(43:58):
but you would help people understand the uniqueness of the
SR seventy one. And when they taught our propulsion force
that year, we had Bernie Kerr as our instructor for
he was the engineer that designed the J fifty eight
engines for the SR seventy one. So it was quite
an interesting course to be in. But yeah, so that

(44:21):
was like very tempting. But then I thought, you know,
if I do that, they'll they'll retire this they're playing
at some point. And then you know, I'm in the
reconnaissance community and I'm not flying the F sixteen, which
I turned down an F sixteen assignment to torohone every
base in Madrid, Spain. When I was still at the
F one eleven, I got a rare like out of

(44:42):
the blue assignment. And I got back from having put
a deposit on a house down there, and one of
my buddies from my polytraining Glass was already F sixteen
guy there, and I was gonna go to Luke check out,
go to fort Worth which still General Johnal Dynamics for Worth,
then pick up a brand new F sixteen as a
replacement for another F four, put my name on the

(45:05):
canopy rail and fly it over with tanker escort to Spain.
It's going to me a kind of cool experience. And
I was very excited. And I got this cute little
house there in Spain, there in Madrid, and had a
swim pool in the front yard and had a grape
barbaro in the driveway. Was like, oh, this is dreaming.
I'll get back from that. I put a clut deposit
on the house. They give me all my squadron scars

(45:27):
and tactical name tags and stuff, and I get a
call back at the Houseburne Farm, where I was living
at the time in England, and I answered it. Then
he said, uh, it's command post. And we got a
pass through pass through call from Randolph Air Force Base.
Well you take it, I said, sure, go ahead and
put them on. So the guy on the other end

(45:48):
the phone says, so I understand you have orders to
F sixteen's going to Luke for training and following up
by torone. I said, yeah, that's right. He said, have
you shipped household good yet? I said no, the packers
are coming next Monday. And then he said have you
made any personal financial commitments that you're not personally absorbed

(46:09):
by the pocket And I said, well, I shipped my
corvette back to New York so I could blood New
York pick it up and go to a lout. And
I was just going to sell it there because you
can't take two cars to Spain put one hundred dollars
on a house. But yeah, I guess not. Why what
do you ask? He said, Well, it's the test Pot
school board and we want to know do you want

(46:31):
to go to Testbot school or do you want to
go to the F sixteen. And I had applied way
before I was qualified. I didn't have the number of
hours that are requisite or anything else. But I've done
a bunch of inventions and engineering projects while I was
a fighter pilot at the OPPERA Hayford like. I wrote
the first ever flight planning software program. And I did

(46:52):
it with an Awary eight hundred, which was the first
consumer computer you could you could get and only programming
line wages basic. And I did all kinds of strange
math to get it done. I actually worked four days
without sleep trying to get that working right. I had
to buy a new book on Chevy Chuck paulinomial so

(47:14):
I could figure out exactly how to take all the
squiggly things in the back of the dash wind that
you had to interpolate on where you went into your weapons,
and figured out the drag index fuel flows. So did that,
and I invented a computer drives to command and control
information system because when we get the commpos would get

(47:34):
the big order a battle down via teletype, so you
know it's got the little holes down the side and
then green and white striped paper, and then they would
rip off sections of that and say, Okay, Sunday night,
Squadron's gonna have these fragmentary order a battle and fifty
fifth is gonna have these and seventy cents gonna have this,
and then added to a staff sergeant he'd get in

(47:56):
a pickup truck and drive around the base to deliver
the orders at And I'm thinking, this is crazy. If
we were actually under attack, what's the likelihood that our
fragmentary order battle would even arrive? So I got to think,
and how could we solve that problem?

Speaker 3 (48:13):
And we had a.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
Telephone system, just a voice system, and if out I
asked them about it. The lines didn't go off base.
They were strictly underground on the base, and I only
connected the command post to the three fighter squads. And
of an invention called the acoustic coupler phone motive had
just come out, so I thought, well, we could turn

(48:37):
those voice analogs into digital and back and forth. We
can just cook couple of these up. So I actually
went and bought some acoustic couplers off the market and
tried out my own experiment with the British phone system there,
and we could talk classified on those lines, you know, orly,
so we could actually send this classified document over them

(48:59):
without breaking any rules. And then I said, well we
needed a nice print out, so we got a you know,
a printer and a computer interface for the for each
squadron had to go through the contract and do that,
and that way the command post can call up and
say we've got your fragmentary water a battle and they'd say, okay,

(49:20):
I'm ready to receive. They will both plug it down
then squeaks and beeps and it would just print out beautifully.

Speaker 3 (49:26):
There cool, and.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
Nobody's driver on the base with it. So the wing
commander was kind of blown away by that.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
And then.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
We had to actually start one engine to talk on
the radio and to wait for our clearances and stuff
from the command post because the original radio was this
huge tube power and you know, ran on four hundred
cycle AC. But then later we got the half quick
DC radio which flown with two in the viper yep.

(49:58):
But when the engineers put it into the airplane, they
took kind of the lazy man's way out and they
just put a little transformer rectifier to take AC and
turn it into DC, and they didn't hook it to
the battery boss at.

Speaker 4 (50:10):
All, so you had to have least one engine generator.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
Yeah, so I thought this is kind of crazy, so
I asked the week commander if I could have access
to a hangar queen, and he said, yeah. Now, because
you know, if an airplane's waiting on parts that are
not available and going to be down for a while, said,
you know, just give me one of those. I told
him what I wanted to try, and he said, okay,

(50:34):
And I said, I'm going to use all Millspeck parts.
Don't use exactly the same transformers or excuse me, the
same resistors and the same all kinds of circuits that
I would need, the diodes, the transistors that are already
in the airplane and certified Millspeck. And I made a
little box to house it in, and I came up

(50:55):
with a wiring diagram to do it, and I and
I went out there and did it by myself and
tested it myself, and it worked great. All you had
to do is flip the battery switch on. Now you
had intercom between the two people, and you had the radio,
and you can run half quick and do all that
voice protecting stuff. And I did a test and you
could run that battery would run it for twenty twenty

(51:16):
three hours continuous listening and up to four and a
half hours of continuous talking. And of course we only
needed it for like thirty minutes or so, and then
the generation you charged better anyway. So he liked it
so much that he said, okay, let's don't take that
out of there. I want you to get this approved
by the Air Force Suggestion Program, and they said, well,

(51:39):
they'll pay you up to ten percent of whatever the
savings are. So I calculated the fuel savings for all
the airplanes at Hey Fern and Linke and heat the
F Boddel and elevens for all this crazy stuff, Riven
Doe to run into one engine all these exercises, and
it came up to millions of dollars of fuel savings.
What's left going to our music? So I put together

(52:00):
a package that covered every model of the F one eleven.
So the A, the D I'm getting, didn't the Australian
C are the F one eleven G just looked at
the tactic coins, the A, the C, and the D,
E n F so those four and I submitted this

(52:21):
package with all these drawings and engineering details about how
to do it in each of these airplanes. And the
place I had to submit it was to McClellan Air
Force Base, which was the depot for all one elevens
out in California, and I got a reply back from
the engineers that said, rejected, this is technically impossible to do.

(52:43):
Well at this point we've been flying with this airplane.
He said, we'll put a sheet in the front of
the seven eighty one, which is the aircraft maintenance forms
then in forms of cos they get to look through
the latest ride ups. It'll have this big sheet that's
got a red border in it, and it'll say this
aircraft has a special modification and you can turn on
the battery switch and you got intercommon radio without having
to start an injured When the air crews loved it,

(53:04):
you know, they all they all liked by that jet.
And anyway, the wing commander at some point had the
four star general commander of view Safely and he he
came in out of the headquarters of Ramstein for a

(53:27):
visit to the wing, you know, because they would go
around and check all the wings in you safety, and
my wing commander decided to showcase this uh flight planning system,
which by the way, I had to get him to
buy some additional computers for each squadron so I could
get my computer back because it was just stuck in
the squad and after people used it together, it took

(53:48):
forty five minutes using the computer. It took four and
a half hours doing it all manually. So it was
a game changer and people loved it, and they all wanted,
you know, computerized flight planning from that point on. So
he showed him that, and he showed Hi the command
and control information system that I'd done, and then he
wanted me out at the jets sitting in the right seat, well,
the four star general is in the left seat to

(54:10):
showing the radio thing goes, this is Greg. He says,
I want this on every F one eleven under my command.
And I said, well, sorry, I tried, and I submitted
a full package engineering backage. Mcclallan Air Force Base rejected
it and said it's technically impossible to do, and then

(54:32):
he had some choice explitives that he didn't care what
they said, and he said, you're grounded until you get
this finished. I want you to go to Lake and
Heath and do every airplane there, and do all the
ones at Hay for they did give you a landing.
They did didn't let me take a flight over forty
five days to keep landing currency, so I didn't totally

(54:52):
lose everything. But I looked at my win comb or
who's standing on the ladder just outside where the general
was in the cockpit. I said, Sarah, you know I'm
not actually legally qualified to do all these wiring moods,
even though I know how to do it. So can
you please assign me a technical sergeant with the wiring skills,

(55:13):
and I'll build all the kits and i'll have them
all set up, and i'll engineer it and I'll show
him everything that needs to be done. But let him
connect the wires and then let somebody in the in
the maintenance thing, you know, double check his work and
sign it off. And they agreed to that.

Speaker 3 (55:30):
So but you never got a check.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
I never got a check. Now it didn't matter I
did get out of. What I did get out of
it is this phone call from the test pot school
because everything I did like that that had nothing to
do with my job. I mean, it wasn't an assigned duty.
It was just my engineering and invention brand constantly at work,

(55:54):
and they let me do all these things. But I
got credit for it in my officer performance report. In fact,
I had second lieutenant and first lieutenant officer performance reports
that were endorsed by the four star general, which was
very rare, and they had recorded all these engineering things
that I had done on my own, and I think
that's what attracted the test Plout School and said, we

(56:16):
don't care that he doesn't have fifteen hundred hours in fighters,
we don't care that he doesn't have two aircraft types
behind his belt. So as a very young captain at
the time I went to test Plout school, I was
the youngest in history at that point in age to
go through the test Plout school. So that's how it happened,
and it wasn't I didn't actually foresee any of that

(56:38):
unfolding that way when it did happen. When you're going
through the test pot school, they have a qualitative evaluation
program and it's an important part of the education.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
You fly up.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
They want you to fly at least thirty five different
types of aircraft that you've never flown before and evaluate
them for their handling qualities, for their performance, cracter, all
these things. So they called it the Qualitative Evaluation Program
Quali valve for sure, and I love that. That's how
I got to fly to the YouTube. That's how I

(57:09):
got to fly all these airplanes from the Navy and
the helicopters. I flown five different types of helicopters, and
that's that's very humbling to be a fixed wing fider
pilot and try for your first time to hover a
basic a helicopter like the Oh fifty eight, because your
right hand needs to in the hover needs to be
doing what your left hand's doing, you know. So it's

(57:30):
like this control of angle of attack and attitude kind
of reverses when you're in a helicopter trying to hover it.
So I had to rewire my brain and finally figure
that out on my first try, and then I flew
a bunch of different helicopters from the Navy and the
Coast Guard and the Air Force.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
That's crazy, Dan, So you're basically a legend. I think
we've established that. And this is a nice segue to
where when you got that phone call, you were at
Upper Hayford, and when you were with that four Star,
you were at Upper Hayford. So I'll hand it over
now to Professor Simon to talk about this amazing sighting legend. Dan.

(58:08):
It's just I love it.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Yeah, slightly more more than my Cessna one. Flight training
is excellent. So let me take you back to this
Air Force base in England's called Upper Hayford. You were
there in the late seventies and early eighties. Tell us
about Upper Hayford and what was your role there? What
were you flying before we got into what you saw.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
Okay, I was flying the F one eleven ee RF.
RF Upper Hayford was leased to the US Air Force.
It was at roll Air Force Base and continued to
be We were just leasing use of it and part
of the Cold War, we had a lot of forces
over there and the F one eleven ees were at
Upper Hayford, and there were F one eleven f's over

(58:52):
at Arif Lake and heath Over on the East coast.
But the Arif Upper Hayford is in the part of
the UK called the Cotswolds, and it's kind of rolling
hills farming country, about twelve miles northwest of Oxford, England,
in about an hour drive to London from there, and

(59:14):
that's where I did all my operational fighter pilot training
and experience. We deployed a lot.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
And you flew F one eleven's operationally there for various
sorties and things that the US that A two wanted
you to do.

Speaker 1 (59:32):
I did. And we also had Victor Alert, so we
had to sit alert for a week at a time.
And that's sort of prescient to how I ended up
where I was when I was for my uapen counter,
being the youngest guy and then the youngest pilot in

(59:54):
the squadron that first year, I got the holidays short, yeah,
short end of the stick. So I'm sitting alert during
Christmas holiday.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Can you describe alert? Can you describe what that is
for people?

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
We had special weapons in case the Cold War were
to break out and we were to need that firepower,
and those were closely held at the time. Of course
the Ministry of Defense knew about them, but the public didn't.
But we set alert with those weapons and hardened concrete

(01:00:39):
bumper type arrangements. There were no windows when you went
to your buck to go to sleep, it was just
you turned the light off. It's pitch dark in there,
so we had flast lights with us and we slept
in our flight suits and our boots were ready with
the speed laces to jump into and zip up. And

(01:01:00):
if the clackson went off. Fortunately that never happened, but
we did. You know, we did some elephant walks every
once in a while and various types of things to
just exercise the aircraft and exercise our responses.

Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
And it's hat cocked right. You guys would have the
jets fully ready to go, your inertial navigation systems already aligned,
so everything's ready, so you can just sup that and
the weapons would be basically ready to go as well,
which is really quite interesting. Yeah, okay, okay, So.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Let's go back to December nineteen eighty. Yeah, so in
December nineteen eighty you were on alert. Specifically, the twenty
sixth of December is the date of your sighting. It
was a day after Christmas Day, and you drew the
short straw of being still at the base and not
going home or anything.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
That's great.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
You weren't on the night that you saw something. You
weren't actually on the base. You were at the golf club.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
Yeah. Yeah. And the the changeover for the the new
crew to take over, because there was always a crew
on alert, and that changeover happened on Fridays, so late
late in the day Friday, the new crew would take
your place and and you would be you know, a
long togo. I think i'd gone by the Officers Club

(01:02:25):
because you know, I missed basically everything, being stuck out
there for the whole week, but just kind of see
some of the guys and have a little chat. We had.
We had a nice little Officers Club bar there at
the base. But knowing that, I got to drive home
because I've you know, got my corvette out there and
by myself. I probably had a half of beer if

(01:02:47):
I had anything, because I definitely didn't want to d
uy in the UK. That would have been career ending
right there. So I left probably around I mean, we
sang some songs and stuff, so all the songs, probably
nine thirty to ten, and I had about a half
hour drive to the town of Vista, where kind of

(01:03:10):
they had a whole section of housing there. Because the
base was so small, we had very few houses, maybe
only the commander and so forth that were directly on
the base. So I was out in this other little
housing district and one of the main roads that I
drove to get there went by this golf course which
I was familiar with. I hadn't played it before. I

(01:03:31):
wasn't on the course that day, but I knew you know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Where, and it backs onto the runway and perimeter fence.
This is the Hayfred Golf Club with a big clubhost.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Now this is actually the Bister Golf Club. And I
think I sent you a map which showed, uh, it's
just outtown that outside the town of Bister, and they
have a golf course in a hotel there, and I
mean it's a nice course, although I'm not not a
real good golfer. But anyway, that was really only relevant

(01:04:07):
because as I'm driving down that road, I'm all alone,
and my nineteen eighty Corvette had a big glass coop
type long back window, very good rear visibility, and what
caught my eye was all of the unusual lights on
this thing that came streaking in and it zipped right

(01:04:30):
by me and then stopped, and it was hovering right
over what I knew to be one of the golf
course greens, and there was a few trees between me
and it, and there are trees on the other side
of it and at the end of it, because the
golf course had a lot of trees, and the way
they designed the porst so it totally startled me. It

(01:04:53):
was completely silent I rode down and rolled down the
window and there was no sound. I pulled my car
off the road, opened my door and stood and looked
at it, and it was triangular shaped, but it didn't
have a pointy front end. It had kind of a
curved front end. And I couldn't see anything but the

(01:05:14):
lower part of it, but all around it. It wasn't
like individual lights that were going on and off or
blinking or anything. It was almost like a plasma of
changing colors going around the bottom. The drawing that I
sent to you by email was done by forensic artists.

Speaker 5 (01:05:33):
For the FBI, which I did agree with Ryan Graves
to be interviewed by them, and they kept that from
going public at that point because I requested it, but
I was willing to document it for Americans for safe
anal space, and it had not been for the forensic
artists working with me, I wouldn't have such a realistic

(01:05:55):
picture of that, or even the other episode that I
had later.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
For encounters in my lifetime, this one though, was the
first ever. And being an aerospace engineer and knowing I mean,
you know, we were trained for combat, so we could
recognize all aircraft systems that we might encounter more friendly
aircraft so that we knew the difference. And this clearly

(01:06:22):
wasn't a helicopter, it wasn't an airplane, it wasn't like
anything I'd ever seen before, and it was my first
ever encounter with an actual VAP. So my first curiosity
was to make my way to it. So I walked
around the back of my car and started walking through
the field, headed toward the trees, and then it reacted

(01:06:45):
to that and it started baring itself down, and then
I got kind of like scared because I go, you know,
if anybody saw me seeing a UFO, that would be
the end of my career before I even got test
filet schools. So I had this immediate response that I
need to run back to my car and get out

(01:07:07):
of here before somebody sees me. And I'm not going
to tell a soul that I ever saw this, because
you know, when you're doing the Victor Lorden stuff, you're
on special top secret clearance with Personal Reliability Program Personnel
Reliability Program PRP, and so psychological testing was a big
part of that, and it would have been an easy
thing for them to just basically saying always crazy, mark

(01:07:30):
me crazy. And tacking and then it goes my flying career.
So I dare not tell a soul and I didn't.
I never told anybody about it for all those years.

Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
If you're enjoying this interview, please hit the like button
and consider subscribing. It really helps the channel, and thank
you for watching.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
You were alone in your car on that road. But
was there any other side cheams play anybody else all
the similar craft at the same time, well Otbory Well, I.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
Certainly wasn't aware of it, and I was certainly gonna
ask anythy. But I did find out from a March
twenty second, twenty twenty three show that Linda Moulden Howe
did on her Earth Files YouTube jumble she had a
guy that was using the pseudonym of Smith Jones and
he was a I think a staff surgeon at the

(01:08:21):
time at RAF Upper Hapron and on that not on
the twenty sixth, but at one am on the twenty seventh,
so approximately three hours of fifteen minutes from when I
saw that he had one show up the weapons storage area.
He was gardening some out with some weapons on a
trainer until the weapons people came to. You know, he

(01:08:45):
was basically with a rifle, so doing security. He told
about how I kind of walked back and forth like
a century, you know, and he's looking one way, looking
the other way, looking all around with his rifle on
his shoulder, and at one of those points he turned
around and all of a sudden, hear this thing was
and it was just hovering with the front end toward him,
but it was a little bit below his elevation, so

(01:09:07):
he's looking straight into what he said was a glass
front that looked like the floor was lighted, and the
light looked like it came from the floor up and
not the celand down. He didn't see any beings in there,
but this thing was just hovering there, and he thought,
you know, wow, that's not ours.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
And was it roughly the same shape and as the
craft that you saw an hour and a half earlier.

Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
He had a much closer look at it. And later
as they were putting the weapons in storage, it was
hovering over them, over the weapons storage area, and so
he got to see the underneath. He got to see
the top and the front and the back as it
went away, So he had a much closer encounter. But
the only way I knew about that was he finally

(01:09:56):
agreed not to be on camera, but to have his
voice disguised a little and use a pseudonym and tell
the story on Lynna Miltonhou's Earth Files. And after I
watched that, I noticed in her description she requested, if
anybody else had a sighting like this at that time frame,

(01:10:17):
please contact me via proton mail. And so she had
her proton email address. So I quickly got a proton
Email account and I created a really strange name that
didn't relate to mine as my email address, and I
sent her an email about it and told her what

(01:10:38):
my experience was. And then she she emailed me back
and asked me if I would provide her a phone number,
and I did, and that following week I was actually
in San Antonio, Texas at a science and technology symposium
teaching direct energy weapons, which I have been doing in

(01:11:00):
since twenty ten. So that night in my hote tone,
my cell phone rang and it was Linda Molton Howe,
and she really wanted me to do like the Smith
Jones thing, and I said, you know, I'm still on
a top secret clearance and I have a reputation that

(01:11:21):
I have to uphold to have credibility for the people
I'm teaching. So I just don't think this is probably
a good time for me to come out with that,
because I'm it's important that I finished this work, which
I finally did in twenty twenty four, late twenty twenty four.
So I told her I wasn't willing to do that
at this point. But you know, her focus at on

(01:11:43):
the call mostly was about the one there, because in
her show she reported that Arif Falconberry, which is a
little north of area Upper Hayford, plus more than just
this one guy had reported sighting's at Upper Hayford physically
on the base or over the base. And it was
in that same time frame with the Rendal from Forest,

(01:12:03):
which I always thought that was just all by itself,
you know, And I didn't know about Rendal from Forest
at the time that I had my sighting. I learned
about it when it came on TV for the first time.
And you know the Charles Halt memo that he wrote
to the mod that declassified and put out the you know,

(01:12:24):
all of a sudden people are talking about it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:28):
And then did you see the craft?

Speaker 3 (01:12:30):
Did you ever?

Speaker 2 (01:12:31):
Did you see the craft moving? What kind of vectors?

Speaker 3 (01:12:34):
Did it go at.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
Vertical speed horizontal speed?

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
Yeah? I saw it zipping in. It was moving very fast,
and I saw it in my rearview mirror, and it
caught my attention because it wasn't normal and it was
not at road level. It was up above the trees
and moving very very quickly. I can't ask to make
the speed because again that's my rearview mirror and I'm
driving forward around that night on a small road. But

(01:13:04):
it not only went by me, but it stopped instantaneously.
I mean, there was no like slow down, There was
no change in attitude. It just went from streaking along
to think and it's just sitting there totally stationary. And
of course I know enough about g forces and inertia

(01:13:25):
and all the other stuff that happens to us in airplanes.
That's not normal, So that that certainly got my attention.
And the only other motion I saw it do while
I was just sat there silent was as I walked
towards the woods. It was clearly aware of me. It

(01:13:45):
was clearly stopping because of my car and me. Why
I don't know, but it responded when I started walking
towards the golf course, and it responded by starting down silently,
and then that's when I thought, why are you doing?

Speaker 6 (01:14:07):
You know, if.

Speaker 1 (01:14:07):
Anybody, if you get involved with something like this and
anybody finds out, and your career is over forces. I mean,
I was literally I've just been fully mission ready declared
in June of that year, so I've been an operational,
fully certified, fully cleared, mission ready pilot for six months,
and I'm enjoying what I was. I didn't want to

(01:14:28):
stop it, so yeah, that that's really why I didn't
get more involved. I'm kind of glad after hearing about
what happened with some of the personnel that that were exposed,
that that's really concerned and maybe maybe it's a good
thing I didn't get too close, because as an engineering scientist,

(01:14:53):
I'm firmly convinced that the way those craft are working
has to be a very strong electromagnetic force field that
they're creating. How they're doing it, I don't know, I'm
you know, I have I have a lot of a
lot more understanding about electrical stuff in connection to the

(01:15:16):
electromagnetic spectrum from having worked on high power microwave and
high energy laser weapon systems. Right, but I I do
understand that if you're too close to those kinds of
fields without shielding, human bodies aren't really designed. Like why

(01:15:38):
we don't go stand in front of an operating aircraft
radar unless it's real COVID and then it'll make you
feel warm because it actually thermally heats your stain. But
it's it's not a good idea long term to be
exposed to that stuff. And of course there are people
who were injured, and you know, none of that was

(01:16:01):
in my head at the time. I didn't even think
about it. I'm just curious as I can be, because
the way my brain works, I go, well, this is fascinating,
because this is not a conventional anything, So what is it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
That's a very good point that a lot of people
have said when they see something which falls into the
category of highly strange, the human brain always tries to
say it's a it's a brick, it's a plain, it's
a light. And when you see something which doesn't qualify
for any pigeonhole in your pilot and skilled brain, how

(01:16:38):
did that? What did it look like? I mean, what
does something which is totally unknown due to your brain?
How did it make you feel? You were you trying
to say, ooh, it's a light it you know, tell
us about the experience and how you processed it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
Yeah, I wasn't confusing it as seen any kind of
terrestrial thing that I know of, any kind of aircraft.
That it was clearly an anomalous craft that had flight
characteristics and abilities that I had never been exposed to.

(01:17:14):
Of course, so at first there was a bit of
ontological shock, but that was quickly overcome by just insane
curiosity because it part of me just wanted to go
see if they would let me in and let me
fly for a little while. I mean, that's just the
fighter ballot speaking to me, right, I'll have a go
of this thing. Let's see what it can do. But

(01:17:35):
of course that would have been a very stupid thing
to do. And even though my first inclination is to
get an even closer look, although it was pretty close,
it was probably, oh an estimate, one hundred and fifty
feet or so away from me.

Speaker 4 (01:17:48):
Wow, So that getting closed.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
But there were no other cars on the road, there
was no other person stopping, and I didn't want to
have a conversation with anybody about it. Ever, because of
the stigma and what it can do to my flying career.
And I'm not alone. I think most pilots that I
know that now have come out had the same reaction

(01:18:12):
during their flying years.

Speaker 3 (01:18:15):
Well one hundred and fifty feet away. I mean, so,
is there any doubt in your mind that this wasn't
a completely anomalous advanced flying machine?

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
Well, I.

Speaker 1 (01:18:32):
Okay, I can't say that for sure that if we
have been able to reverse engineer and create a craft
like that, I won't say it's not. I just say
that it was not certainly anything with a jet engine
or a reciprocal engine. It didn't have any kind of
you know, throw something out the back to make it

(01:18:53):
go forward. It didn't have speed brakes or you know,
I didn't bank up real quick stop, just went zinc.
So it was close enough to me to witness, even
from inside my car, that I had no doubt that
this was not not anything that you could come up

(01:19:14):
with a prosaic explanation for. Could it have been a
reversed engineercraft in nineteen eighty possibly, But then the question
would be why would it be doing that, Why would
it be in that area we I know where we
test things like that. I've been there, not to ask

(01:19:36):
for but Area fifty one, and I know why we
have that secrecy. And my unit at Hill Air Force
Space was a detached just like the detachment is at
Area fifty one. It's a part of the Edwards Air
Force Space. That's where the ultra classified stuff happens, whether
it's weapons or aircraft. And there's a good reason for

(01:20:00):
it to be secret, because we don't want to give
that away to any of our adversaries. So could it
have been that. If it was, it was certainly well advanced,
beyond anything that I had knowledge of. And I was
never an intel guy. Never ever. I was in a
lot of TSSECI special access programs, including use apps, which

(01:20:30):
is unacknowledged special access programs where even the code word
was classified, so you couldn't share it with anybody. I've
been in that, but not for anything related to UAP
or reverse engineering. I have no back on that. But
as an engineer or scientist brain, my brain immediately trying

(01:20:53):
to figure out, how could that be possible? Because that's
the part where my brain won't let it go. How
is that possible? And you know, that was just the
first of several I will say that I did have
a chance to go talk to Jeremy Corbel and George

(01:21:16):
Knapp in February tenth, so that was about a month
and a half before I got the call from Linda
mouldenhow and the reason that came up is because my stepson,
one of my stepsons, is a professional musician, has been

(01:21:38):
doing it for twenty five plus years, tourist the world,
has gold records, very well known, and he also loves
movies and he has written a lot of musical scores
for films in Hollywood, So he's a lot in Hollywood
occasionally in because Jeremy Corbel is also a filmmaker, you know,

(01:22:01):
and he has encountered him and actually knew him personally.
And one of his trips when he was out in
La he taught he was talking to Jeremy and Jamie
was asking me if he had any personal knowledge about
any uap stoll. He said no, and I think my
stepfather has. I have no idea what it is because

(01:22:21):
he won't talk about it. It's just that he's seeing things.
And he said, do you think he'd be willing to
come out here and talk to us? He said, I
don't know. We'll check with him, and so he called
me and I said, sure, when I need to be there,
and so we set up a date. I got tickets.
I took his mom, my parent wife. She didn't go

(01:22:42):
to the meeting with me, but she was in the
hotel with me out there, and we flew out to
la and at the last minute he gave us the
location if we were going to be in this covert location.
So I showed up and talked to them, and of
course shared that, and I shared the encounter I had

(01:23:05):
at Edward's Air Force Base, South Base, and an encounter
I had in the wilderness in Silver Springs, Florida. So
those three I shared with them. And after sharing those three,
because they were about ten years between the first one
and the second one, and then about fourteen years between

(01:23:32):
the second one and the third one, and then didn't
even tell them about the fourth one because that was
not so far apart, because that was the orb signing.
At that point, I felt silly to talk about orbs Wan. Anyway,
I told him about the three, and George, now, it's
seriously could be. He just leaned in and he looked

(01:23:53):
me right across the table in the eyeballed eyeball, and
he said, they're tracking you. That kind of gave me
a little bit like, who's.

Speaker 2 (01:24:04):
Worrying?

Speaker 4 (01:24:05):
What was dracking me?

Speaker 1 (01:24:07):
But you know the second one I told when I
did the FBI thing, I said, please don't. I don't
want to have a drawing runner, because this could have
very well been some sort of ultra classified program at Edwards.
But when I was at the test pil in school,
I used to I had a big motorcycle and I
would go out riding the road that went out of

(01:24:27):
the south to the south gate of Edwards went to Lancaster,
And as you got past the South Base, which is
where we did the B two stuff and airborne laser
stuff was done not on the main basement in South Base,
and then North Base also was kind of a classified
area on the base. But if you went out that
road towards Lancaster, it just pretty soon you were away

(01:24:48):
from the lights of the base and runway lights and
all that, and you got a few little hills dring
on that and you look up and you could see
the full like the full Milky Way, And I used
to like to just stargaze and contemplate the universe always
always been following that, So I rode out there and
parked my bike on side the road and was just

(01:25:09):
looking at the stars, and suddenly the stars were disappearing
in a big wedge triangle shape that was just ominous
and black, and all the sky is disappearing as this
is slowly coming over me, and I felt a little
teenling in my skin, like a little electrostatic something, you know,
no sound, no sound whatsoever. The thing was huge. So

(01:25:35):
again I didn't want to tell anybody about that. One
of the reasons I wouldn't talk to anybody on the
base about it is when I was teaching the test
Pont school, I was always like spitballing them on pranks
and stuff. We went to the bar on a Friday
night and I'm talking to some of the pousing students
and I had come up with a way to make
an aircraft visually cloaked, like true cling on cloaking device

(01:26:01):
from Star Trekles was just something in my brain. But
I was talking to guys about it, kind of just
telling them how I thought it could be done. And
suddenly two guys in suits which I later learned to
be OSI, came up from behind me and they grabbed
by the shoulder and they said, sorry, you got.

Speaker 4 (01:26:20):
To come with us, really right, And they took me
out of there and.

Speaker 1 (01:26:27):
They said, uh, put me in a private room and said,
how do you know about this? I said, know about what?
What you were talking about? I said, I don't. I
just came up with that in my head. They said, well,
you got to shut up about it because we've actually
got a program going on for that right now, So
don't you tell another soul. So I said, okay, is

(01:26:52):
there anything else? And uh, they said no, you just don't.
Don't ever talk about that again. So I didn't had
that experience before I had my sighting. I thought, well,
I'm not going to tell anybody about this because it
might very well be a very highly classified program that
I just know nothing. Because that was nineteen ninety so

(01:27:14):
a lot of years from since Roswell and since all
this stuff that's going on. So I didn't. I didn't
tell anybody about it until I told George Knapp and
Jeremy Porbell. The third one was perhaps the most direct. Well,
we had a property that was very secluded. It was

(01:27:36):
right on the Oklahaha River beside the o'calla National forest
and very beautiful, and we had a hot tib about
back again in a place where I could see the
night sky from the hot tub. So I love to
watch life go over and look at constellations and just
always enjoyed Gason at the nice guy. My wife had

(01:27:58):
gotten shriveled already, and so she got out and said, well,
I'm gonna go in and shower off and get ready
for bed. I said, well, it's a perfect night, so
I'm gonna stay out for a little while and just
enjoy it. So I did, and eventually I decided, okay,
I've had enough to so I got out of the
hot tub. I hadn't seen anything except normal satellites moving

(01:28:18):
overhead at that point, perfectly quiet night, perfectly pobless night.
And I got my towel. I was ready to dry off,
standing by the hot tub, and all of a sudden,
I'm bathed in this very unusual night. And as I
looked around me, it definitely encircled me in my hot tub,

(01:28:41):
but it was centered on me, and I looked around,
thinking somebody's playing a trick on me out here. And
I looked around to see if there's anything nobody else
out there, and so eventually I said, oh, it's a
symmetric circle on the ground here, and it was this
bluish green color. And as I looked up, it was

(01:29:04):
above me, and it was a beam coming straight down
from the craft, and it had this if I said,
a defocused laser, would that make any sense to the
either of you about the character of it? It was
kind of this. It just wasn't normal, uh, normal ton
of light. But it wasn't. It wasn't like right, It

(01:29:26):
didn't hurt my eyes or anything. But the moment that
I looked up and consciously thought that's a craft, the light,
the laser light went out, and then the craft went
to like it expanded a plasma ball around it, and
then moment it went to twice that size, and then

(01:29:50):
one third time. These are all in quantum jumps, not
like an analog, going bigger and bigger. It went from
this to this to this, and then you could just
see barely the motion moving toward the west for just
a tiny bed and then it just accelerated so fast
it just disappeared.

Speaker 4 (01:30:10):
It just was gone.

Speaker 1 (01:30:12):
No sound, no shockwave, no sound while it was just
hovering above me. And that's the last thing I shared
with them when George Napling forward and said they're tracking you.
So the third, the fourth event that I wasn't going
to share with them at that point was after we

(01:30:34):
bought this house that I'm currently in. We got that
in twenty sixteen, and it was brand new we moved in,
hadn't been here long. There's a Lannai that faces out
the back covered l nai, and there's a retention pond
that sometimes it is like a lake and sometimes just dry,
and it's a big retention pond and it makes a

(01:30:55):
big c shape around these woods that are behind and
nobody behind us. But then and I just happened to
look out that night as I'm getting ready to close
blinds and make sure the doors are all locked and
go to bed, and this bright ball of light came
down from just to the northwest of my house and

(01:31:22):
it came down to just above the retention pond and
started moving fairly slowly, well, it was moving fairly rapidly
at first, and then it turned the curve and just
kind of slowed down right behind my house at I
being leveled to me. And that chilled me to the
point of like, Wow, I don't I don't think I

(01:31:44):
should even stand here and look at this anymo. It
was something about that said, this is not normal, and
I've never seen an orbit before. But the door was open,
and it was no sound. It was not rotors from
a quad copter or anything. It was just this pure
ball of white light. So I just quickly shut the door,

(01:32:05):
pulled the blunes.

Speaker 6 (01:32:06):
And.

Speaker 1 (01:32:09):
I hope it doesn't come in here.

Speaker 3 (01:32:11):
Don't come in?

Speaker 1 (01:32:13):
Well, yeah, for for whatever reason, I've had fore encounters
in my lifetime, and I am incredibly curious about it.
I mean, I think, like you guys, I would like
to understand what it is and what it's not and
is it truly physical? Is it something from another place?

(01:32:35):
Is it ultraterrestrial? Is it stuff that's been here for
a long time, Because obviously there's plenty of evidence that,
I mean even in the Bible and go back that far.
There's stories back there that we can only view as
that was a UAP encounter. So I don't I don't
have the answers for sure. I'm very curious, and I'm

(01:32:57):
and I've been following just about every UAP type related
channel on YouTube that there's out there because I'm just
so curious, and now I'm finally at a point where
I'm willing to publicly share it with my name, my face.
And this is what I've experienced as a test pilot
with quite a long career of flying a lot of

(01:33:21):
different stuff. So I do. I do understand airplanes and helicopters.
And even though I've flung the Goodyear Blood Columbia, you
can believe that's really all I know about that thing.

Speaker 3 (01:33:33):
I do have. I've purchased this book, okay, Gary Heselton,
which is yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:33:45):
From Gary Hazelton because he's really focusing on the Rindlstrom Forest.

Speaker 3 (01:33:54):
Yeah, I've read that book. Actually, I had a really
interesting interview with Gary last year and he sent me
the book on PDF, and yeah, I read the whole thing.
It's actually really interesting. Just a quick question on going
back to your third encounter. Do you remember what the
craft looked like or how far away it was? Did

(01:34:15):
you get any good impressions of its shape and description?

Speaker 4 (01:34:19):
I didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:34:22):
I didn't because as soon as it turned off the
beam that was on me that first what I'll call
plasma ball enveloped whatever it was, that plasma ball wasn't there.
While it was pending the beam down on me, and
the beam was like, not next to me, not over

(01:34:42):
there somewhere where I saw it. It was on me directly,
which was kind of freaky, and it obviously was watching me.
It was very aware of me. And when I looked
up and consciously recognized where I was coming from and
realized that's a UAP, that's when the beam went off
and the first plasma ball happened, and it's like it

(01:35:03):
staged up. I will call it like a three quantum
levels of energy. The first one was, you know, so big,
then it more than doubled in size, and then it
quadrupled in size, this huge plasma energy ball, and then
it just went and it didn't like slowly accelerate the

(01:35:25):
whole thing. The plasma ball basically was no longer visible
as I started to detect the first movement. So whether
it just kind of weaked out and my perception was
that it started a little bit headed west disappeared, I
cannot really discern. It was just one of those bizarre
things that happened so fast, and why it happened, who knows.

(01:35:50):
Maybe George Nap is.

Speaker 3 (01:35:51):
Right, they're tracking what's what about the color of the
plasma ball. Do you remember how the same color as
the light, okay, white.

Speaker 1 (01:36:00):
Well, the white, the light was like a bluish green.
It was green and blue mixed, and it had sort
of a speckling nature to it, kind of like a
like I said, if it was a defocused laser beam,
which you know, I spent a lot of time in
labs with lasers, so that's just a way I can
describe it. It's probably not a good way to describe
it because people that haven't spent any time in the

(01:36:21):
lab with lasers probably don't really get that comparison. But
it was dominating straight from the craft, and it wasn't
like a pencil beam. It had been widened out, so
it wasn't like a typical laser. You know, we try
to make it plated and and it it'll broaden a

(01:36:42):
little bit, but you want to concentrate that energy. This
was intentionally diffused out enough to encircle me, my hot
tub and the white gravel around that that all that's
standing on. And it was it was unusual. I mean,
at the craft back in nineteen eighty had put a

(01:37:04):
beam on me like that would probably break me out
because I wouldn't have been ready ontologically for that to occur.
But after two encounters, you know, I'm not afraid of it.
I'm just like totally curious. It was like my wife

(01:37:25):
was so disappointed that she went in early because I said,
you're not gonna believe what just happened. I did tell
her about that, but yeah, it's a it's a bizarre phenomenon,
and I know not everybody gets to have an actual encounter,
and so I think that's why it's important to join

(01:37:47):
the community of people that are coming forward and sharing
it because I think we if we if it's the
fact that we're not alone, even if it's ultra terrestrial
as they let's say, we maybe it's under the oce,
maybe it's in the underground, maybe it's just out there
in orbit somewhere hanging around. Who knows. But whatever it is,

(01:38:08):
it clearly is technologically it's using science that we haven't
figured out yet, or at least I don't know what
it is. I'm very I believe in plasma cosmology rather
than the Big Bang cosmology. I was taught Big Bang.

(01:38:29):
I was taught Newton's I've studied the special in general
relativity from Newton. And while the math is complex, I
think I believe personally that Newton made one big, glaring mistake,
and that is he didn't believe there was any other
force out in space besides gravity, and he limited his

(01:38:53):
thought experiment to that because he didn't think there was
any way, which is strange because his special relativity, I
think he recognized a starla is a wave? What's it
waving through? And because of a poorly crafted experiment when
back in the late eighteen hundreds they believed in the
concept of.

Speaker 3 (01:39:13):
The ether, Michael said, Morley, Yeah, yeahs.

Speaker 1 (01:39:17):
And Morley, and that experiment was considered it was so
sort of a fluid and not that it was just
plasma in the dark mode, because space is filled with
plasma in the dark mode. And in fact, the thing
about the James Webspace Telescope, that's so i'mned on. You know.
It was crafted to try to find the beginning of

(01:39:39):
the Big Bang, and what they're finding is it's fulsifying
their theories. And it's actually so good. It's got such
high resolution and it's so spectrum wide, and its capability
to look at in the infrared. It's actually able to

(01:40:00):
visualize these Berklan currents, which are twisted pairs of electrical energy.
That's what's connecting every galaxy, every other galaxy. The cosmic web,
as they've labeled it, is in fact electrical conduit and
the plasma that's in space, and that's separated charge. So

(01:40:20):
we're talking about electrons not attached in a cloud to
a core. And so we have ions which in the
case of a hydrogen would just be a proton and
electrons separated which got positive negative charges that are now separated,
but highly conductive, in fact, more conductive than a copper
wire here on the Earth. So we are living in

(01:40:43):
a universe that there are scientists that have kind of
figured a lot of this out, and there's a group
called the Thunderbolts Project which is focused on the electrical
connections in space, and then plasma cosmology is looking at that.
Because I will tell you I followed mainstream science for

(01:41:05):
all my life until black holes became like, well, why
are they doing that? Because even Einstein said, that's a
misuse of my equations because they allow themselves to divide
by zero and have infinite density in an infinitely small space.

Speaker 3 (01:41:19):
Yeah, singularity, Okay, well that's not making a lot of
sense that that's allowed in that field but not allowed
in the other field to use.

Speaker 1 (01:41:28):
Mathematics like that. And plus, you know what they're seeing,
the absence of step there they're not seeing, but now
that James Webb telescope is visualizing it, they don't know
what to do with it. What's at the center of
all galaxies is a plasmoid that is a tangle thing.
You can actually recreate them in a lab with a

(01:41:49):
plasma focused gun and you can create a plasmoid and
it just knots up and twists up. It's just this
ball of electromagnetic energy. Galaxy has that at the center
instead of a black hole. So I was already doubting
the black hole theory. And then it didn't make sense
to me when the Vera Reuben thing about seeing the

(01:42:10):
stars moving is not the right velocity out at the
edge of the galaxies. Again, if you think that gravity
is the only force out there, you have to invent
some kind of other gravity to make that work. So
that's where dark matter as a concept was born, that
it's a non aryonic substance that and they've been They've

(01:42:31):
spent nineteen billion dollars testing but fifty three different things
that they there's going to be and not one particle
has been found ever. But now the James Wolves place
telescope which was going to.

Speaker 7 (01:42:44):
Support their theory of the Big Bang, and they had
to add to the big bang, Oh, now we've got
to have inflation because things actually spread apart faster than
speedlights and theory.

Speaker 1 (01:42:57):
And then they invented dark matter, and then they invented
dark energy because they were looking. They're assuming, and even
Edwin Hubble, who was the famous astronomer, was the first
ever use a spectroscopy instrument to look at the light
spectrum on other things, including he was the first to

(01:43:22):
visualize and figure out that Andromeda was not in our galaxy,
but it's a separate galaxy.

Speaker 2 (01:43:28):
It wasn't a nebula, it was a galaxy.

Speaker 1 (01:43:30):
Yeah. Yeah. And as a result, he had a guy
that was like his assistant that outlived him. His name
was Poulton or Arp, and he made it his life's
work to sort of prove because even Hubble said, I

(01:43:52):
don't think we can limit ourselves to saying that all
Doppler redshift equals accelerated velocity, and then later people turn
that into saying, well, if it's this much red shifted,
then it's this many billion years away. So the whole
concept of that kind of falls apart because it's all

(01:44:16):
based on gravity's the only force, and gravity was too
weak to keep everything together, and now it's all accelerating apart.
But I would say that James Webb is showing us no,
the opposite is true. And what Halton Arp had done
is he imaged quasars that come out of an active
core of a galaxy. Again, this plasmo life will sometimes

(01:44:39):
spit out something called a quasar, and it'll be brighter
than all the stars in that galaxy for a bit.
And as that quasar starts to move away from the
parent galaxy, it has an intrinsic red shift that would
make you think it's twenty billion light years away, but
it's not. It's still tied to that galaxy. And as

(01:45:01):
it moves, it goes into sort of an elliptical orbit,
and as it ages, its red shift gets closer and
closer and closer, and pretty soon it's red shift becomes
the same as the parent galaxy, and now it's a
companion orbiting galaxy, kind of like the Large and Small
magellanic clouds that orbit the Milky Way our galaxy, and

(01:45:23):
he had books on that. But the dogma was so
I mean, he got all of his telescope time taken
away from him because he had sort of proven him.
You had things that they were saying was, oh, this
is twelve bill light years away and it's literally connected.
If you look in the right wavelengths, there's this electrical

(01:45:46):
conduit connecting it to the parent galaxy, and it's sitting
in front of the galaxy, not behind it. In the
galaxy would blanket out if there was behind it. So yeah,
it's bizarre. And so I decided that black holes, dark matter,
and dark energy when garden Homes added to try to
crop a theory about the cosmos which no longer.

Speaker 4 (01:46:11):
Can hold up.

Speaker 1 (01:46:13):
How long it'll take who knows. But I've been and
been immersed in studying platinum cosmology and electric universe theory,
and the cool thing about it is you make predictions
based on that and it actually happens that way. Wal
Thorn Hill was a famous scientist in Australia who was

(01:46:36):
brilliing out. He's passed on in the last few years.
But yeah, it's fascinating and it opened my eyes to
a lot of stuff, including the story about our geology
here on Earth is a bit flawed because you can
go out in certain places in Utah and other areas
where you can find rock formations that clearly don't look

(01:46:58):
like this was formed by simply rain and water. And
when what did form it? It turns out electrical activity
of large like a million times a lightning bolt like
electrical energy, and where did that come from? And how
did it come from? So there's a hole, there's a
whole like mind blowing thing that's available there. But I

(01:47:23):
say all that because in my view, you don't generate
this because you've got a coal fire inside of that UAP.
That's you know, turning thermal energy into something it's not.
It's not using the mechanics of how we propel craft,
both on the groundcraft and in the aircraft. And what

(01:47:46):
is that? Well, then it's got to be electromagnetic, because
the electromagnetic force is ten to the thirty ninth power
greater than the force of gravity, which is gravity is
the weakest force. Many scientists after the time of James
Clerk Maxwell in eighteen sixty five ish when he came

(01:48:06):
up with the equations of electromagnetism, thought that perhaps one
day they would realize that gravity is an artifact of
the electromagnetic force, and that may be true if these
crafts are using that as a propulsion mechanism. So, you know,
it probably was very bold to sort of throw that

(01:48:29):
out there. But the reason I think about it so
much is because of my encounters with these graft and
what they do and what they don't do, And so
how do you get there? How do you cohere? The
quantum vacuum zero point energy has an infinite source of

(01:48:50):
energy to power of graft, so you don't need to
refuel anywhere.

Speaker 4 (01:48:53):
How do you do that?

Speaker 1 (01:48:55):
There a lot of people that have been studying that
how to do that, and there are a lot of
theoretical ways, and there are some that have actually had
demonstrable success. But have we mastered it? And do we
have the ability to build craft at the atomic layered
level on some of these materials that have been analyzed
by people, yeah that are experts in this field, and ah,

(01:49:27):
it's a mystery.

Speaker 2 (01:49:29):
Oh Dan, I mean, I've been such an honortist to
have you on the show until it taught you. I mean,
you are such a credible witness. This is what we
we knew you would be. And what you've said and
shared is so open and so fascinating, and both your

(01:49:49):
aeronautical and physics knowledge is outstanding. So thank you so
much for today. And you know, another incredibly interesting encounter
in nineteen eighty and the other ones that you've had
really is going to move this whole field forward. And
I think you know, your physics is really very interesting

(01:50:11):
and your spawn I mean, I know Chris and I
both were involved in a conference talking about the Big
Bang is wrong. So it's a real field of interest.
We need to shake up the scientists.

Speaker 1 (01:50:26):
Yeah, it's time because we're not going to make poor progress.
We've been trapped for one hundred years in a dogma
and off lot that because it's become right. I mean
this those in historical cycles, right, I mean we can
look at science, history of science, and once something gets
on and everybody gets on it and nobody's teaching it,
nobody wants to admit that, well, I've been teaching this

(01:50:47):
wrong for the last twenty years in my college professorship.
That's that's another kind of ontological shock. It's a cultural shock,
and people. You know, where the money flows is staying
with the science. You cannot get peer reviewed literature except
in the EYE Triple E, the ELEC Triple Aid, the

(01:51:08):
International Electrical Engineering Organization that that will publish stuff on
these alternate theories, which is kind of fun because if
you're going to have a theory of anything, it ought
to be able to be predictive and correct, and you
shouldn't have to keep adding garden gnomes to it. I

(01:51:30):
use that analogy because way back in mind and my
heritage is his some iquish, and I think of I
said the old say if I could meet my great
great great great great grandmother and she's telling me about
the garden homes that are out there in the garden,
and I'd say, okay, how do you know? And then
let's say the windstorm comes through the night. Well she's

(01:51:52):
sleeping and her lawn chair blows over, and she'll go,
there's proof I told you the garden omes came out.

Speaker 4 (01:51:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:52:00):
Seabat is kind of mainstream science right now has engineered
at barden knowns to pop up their thing, and it's
really upsetting them. It's fun to watch when they publish
the captions on stuff out of the James Web and
they go, yeah, we don't know how this as possible.

Speaker 3 (01:52:18):
Yeah, they still don't update it though. I just saw
recently they found a galaxy. It's a large object of
assuming it's a galaxy at two hundred and eighty million
years after the alleged Big Bang, but it doesn't have
changed their model. They just say, oh, we got the
galaxy formation models, incorrect inflation theory, the norms.

Speaker 1 (01:52:44):
Well, it's funny to walk them away, but it's sad
because our science needs to move on now. I hope
that the silentists that are somehow in classified programs working
only verse engineering have already climbed out of that ruct
and they're not thinking grab it is the only force,
because it's got to be coherence of the vacuum energy,
the zero point energy, because they're not you know, stopping

(01:53:07):
to refuel with oils or water or anything with this planet.
They're doing whatever they're doing, and it's not it seems
to be per se pervasive enough that they're not having
to go refuel somewhere, and so what would be the
only thing that pervades everything is the zero point energy,

(01:53:28):
the quantum flux where particles come into and out of
existence and self annihilate and do all that. There's enough
energy in the quantum vacuum because it draws from the
entire universe, because it's throughout the universe to power things
that are unimaginable to us. And in my view as
a scientist and engineer, the things that I've witnessed would

(01:53:52):
require such energy that I don't think a self contained
nuclear reactor in the ship is how they're powering it.
And certainly that's not what bottoms are found when they
when they were doing the sport model stuff. And his
story hasn't changed in all these years, so I don't know.

(01:54:12):
I don't of course, he again views how what the
what the little three things on the bottom move around
and do as being gravity wave producers, And maybe that's
one way you could look at what they're doing. But
clearly their cohering energy from somewhere and using it to
displace themself in time and space in a way that

(01:54:35):
doesn't create effects. I mean, the stuff that's under the
sea that can do five hundred knots measured, what is that?
And it doesn't create a wake, It doesn't like cancush
all the vehicles as goes by, So there's some sort
of transformation there that is beyond beyond our current science,

(01:54:56):
at least beyond our current acknowledged science. And I would
hope that before check out. I'll be seventy on my
next birthday, So before I check out, I'd like to
know you. See I don't like you. Yes, I, after
put the years out the way the military and the

(01:55:16):
DoD said I can finally do something different. So I
fell right in hold with you guys, and thank you
for the honor of having a chat. And I'd be
glad to thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:55:29):
No, it really was truly a pleasure, Dan, and I
just an amazing witness. Thank you so much for coming out.
My final question really is I find it interesting that
your first sighting you were curious and driven to go
towards the object, but then your fourth sighting it was
the opposite and you basically ran from the object, essentially

(01:55:51):
close the curtains. Do you think people should speak out
about this? You know, are you happy now that you've
come out of it. Do you feel like you've released
something from your chest. Do you think it's important that
people come out it is, and then.

Speaker 1 (01:56:04):
The whistle blowers I'm really proud of them for doing
what they're doing. It takes great bravery. I was literally
heartbroken by what happened to one of the witnesses that
was on there for the latest September ninth, Porland. Yeah,
that guy's been through helen back and literally unemployable now
with his skills. So I don't think that should be

(01:56:27):
happening to people, and I think we need better whistle
blower protections. At this point, they can take my ts
away and I don't care. He won't interviewed with the FBI.
I thought, well, they'll probably do that, but they haven't
done that. They were there were five of them that
interviewed me, plus the friendsic artists, and they were totally

(01:56:49):
professional and cool and they documented things, and I felt like, well,
at least at least that information is there for the
Americans for safe aero space. But now that I have
fully retired, there's nothing. It's not for personal reprot action.
I don't care about that. I just didn't want to
lose the fun and important work I was doing to

(01:57:11):
be like so many other people that got literally ripped
their career out from home because they said something about
UFOs or UAPs with my view, they're real. Whatever they are,
they're real, and I've been privileged, I guess to have
maybe more sightings than some. I don't know who's had
the most sightings. Who cares. Anybody that's seen one and

(01:57:33):
see it up close will have an ontological shock about
how different that is from what we're used to with
even our fastest aircraft and fastest submarines, I can't do
those kind of things. And the fact that it's multi
domain and can go from space to air to water
and back the other way. That's astounding because we don't

(01:57:55):
have craft to do that.

Speaker 3 (01:57:57):
That's amazing. Thank you so much, Dan, and thank you
Simon for including me. Really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:58:03):
A very important day, Christen. Dan's an excellent chat, and yeah,
we'll share it with the world because people need to
hear your story.

Speaker 3 (01:58:14):
Thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (01:58:16):
Okay, well, thank you for the opportunity. And I was
very excited because I followed both of you. I love
the content that you put out and christ you and
I should meet someday. I've actually spent some time. I
guess you're still living in Portugal.

Speaker 3 (01:58:32):
Yes, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:58:34):
I was there in over Portugal for Open Gate eighty
where we were trying to convince the King of Portugal
that they should join NATO, and we were successful. We
did some for him and and some others. Sometime we
can talk about some other experiences I had doing supersonic
attacks against the NATO fleet to see if they could
find us before we got there, and so those are

(01:58:56):
very fun missions. Got to see my flight lead pier
because there's the first shockwave. For him, it created a
vapor ball and his airplane disappeared. All I could see
was his compedo tube in the front of his nose.
And I was realizing as we're flying and mark one
point one six thousand feet in line of breast. We
calculated the ducting layer to be three hundred and forty feet,

(01:59:17):
so we're flying at four hundred feet, all emitters off
using our you know, Laura, everything is off. We calibrated
our barometric altimeter to be the only altitude we had
and I thought, that's cool. He looks at me, he
sees the same thing, and we got to have a
Tomcat in about twenty five miles from the fleet, but

(01:59:37):
we made it that far undetected. And that was fun too,
because I called out because he rolled in deep six
and it was about eight thousand feet behind us, so
I knew that this feeds he didn't have a missile
that could reach us, So I said, bogie deep six
eight thousand feet stagnated, not remembering that we're on fleet

(01:59:58):
common frequency first at that point, and I hear this voice,
not my flight leads come back and say stagnate, tod
eh and that tom Cat because we were doing one
point one and we weren't going full more, he literally
went to fill out the burn wings full back and
crept up and parked on my left wing tip, gave

(02:00:19):
me the bird, and then fueled up one more. He
was totally Bengo by that point because I didn't carry
near the fuel that an ardbird does. But that was
a fun experience and taught me something about those tom
Cats and how capable they were even down low.

Speaker 3 (02:00:32):
Wow, another amazing story, Dan, I love it. Yeah, we'll
definitely have to meet in person anytime.

Speaker 1 (02:00:39):
Yeah, that'll be great. Maybe we can figure out a
conference that you're going to and maybe i'll have there
and when we can make it a neutral point to
meet wherever. But I've got freedom of travel now because
I'm not tied down to really anything, and it was
truly truly my pleasure to be able to share what
I what I've experienced and share a little bit of

(02:01:00):
my background today. So appreciate the time and I'm very
honored to be on your show.

Speaker 3 (02:01:08):
That was dan isbel folks, breaking forty five years of
silence with a story that is just nuts. I think
it hits really hard. It's on the same day as
rendalhim Forest there was nuclear weapons at Upper Hayford. It
was classified at the time, really coincidental. His aviation stories

(02:01:28):
are also just amazing, even that last one where he's
attacking a ship pretending to be an attack aircraft or
a missile if you will, cruise missile which can't even
go that fast, and then being caught by a tom Kat.
As well as the little details on the radio that
is a huge issue. You know, in the F sixteen,

(02:01:49):
we can't turn on the battery at least when I
was flying it for more than fifteen minutes, right, otherwise
it may be too low to do what you need
during the start of the engines to you get generators
running off the engines. So amazing little details on that
and really shows why he was chosen as a test
plot and just shows his knowledge. I mean, he's completely credible.

(02:02:14):
He knows what he's looking at. And if he says
these craft are anomalous machines of some type, then I
don't see how we can doubt. And I'm also honored
Professor Simon chose me to share this historic story. Thank
you to Simon. Check out his channel and he has
a shorter video just on the UAP Hayford Triangle itself.

(02:02:38):
But please hit the light button, consider subscribing and share
this video. It really helps to get this information out there.
I think the more credible witnesses that come forward, then
the more credible witnesses will come forward, and we need
to break through the stigma. I think it's obvious that
we are not alone in this universe and we're not

(02:02:59):
alone on this plan, and I think it's about time
that we got the truth, or at least closer to it.
So thank you for watching. If you want to support
the channel further, like all these fine people, you can
become a member at YouTube Memberships or go to Patreon
dot com for slash Chris Lato. Have a great rest

(02:03:20):
of your day, peace,

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“They’re tracking you”- Test Pilot Dan Isbell breaks silence on UAPs and Unexplained Propulsion

Stuff You Should Know