UAP HEARINGS Whisteblowers Speak out on UFO Secrets! Part 1

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This hearing of the time declassification of federal secrets will
come to an order. Welcome everyone without objection. The Chair
may declare a recess at any time. Additionally, without any objection,
the following members are waived onto the task force for
the purpose of questioning witnesses at today's hearing, Representative Biggs
of Arizona, Representative Baggich of Alaska, Representative Ogles of Tennessee,

(00:23):
Representative Titus of Nevada, and Representative Moscoits of Florida. There
are no objections. I recognize myself for the purpose of
making an opening statement, Good morning, and welcome to the
hearing regarding UAP disclosures. For too long, the issue of
unidentified anomalous phenomena, commonly known as UAPs, has been shrouded
in secrecy, stigma, and in some case, outright dismissal. Today,

(00:47):
I want to state clearly that this is not science
fiction or creating speculation. This is about national security, government accountability,
and the American people's right to the truth. I've spoken
now to a number of whistleblowers from the military, to
include the infamous Egglind Air Force Base incident that occurred
when myself and former Representative Matt Gates as well as
Representative Burchett, followed up on a lead from multiple active

(01:08):
duty Air Force pilot whistleblowers that allege that the United
States Air Force was covering up UAP activity at Egland
Air Force Base. We have heard from a number of whistleblowers,
specifically military pilots, that the reason for not coming forward
publicly is out of fear that speaking out would cost
them their flight status and potentially their careers. This is unacceptable.
We cannot protect our airspaces if our best trained observers

(01:31):
are silenced. We cannot advance science if we refuse to
ask questions, and we cannot maintain trust in government if
we keep the American people in the dark. Now, Congress
has tried to fix this problem. Congress tried to create
formal channels through the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office also
known as ARROW, and the Intelligence Community Inspector General for

(01:52):
service members and officials to make disclosures, but the reality
the reports come in are often to brush aside, slow walked,
or met with skepticism rather than serious investigation. Recently, the
former ERA director known as Sean Kopatrick attacked our witnesses
and members on this committee. It should be noted that
he's a documented liar and brings into question what his

(02:12):
purpose that AERRA really was if it was not to
follow up on investigations and disclose his findings to members
of Congress. A former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence,
Chris Mellin, described a report published by ERA that found
no evidence that any USG investigation, academic sponsored research, or
official review panel has confirmed any sighting of UAP represented

(02:33):
extraterrestrial technology as the most air ridden and unsatisfactory government
report I can recall reading during after decades of government service.
Mellan further noted that this was a first air report
submitted to Congress without the Director of National Intelligence's sign off,
and seemingly excluded input from any scholars or experts who

(02:55):
have studied or written exclusively about this topic extensively about
this topic, as would normally be in any other case
in this field. Melon determined that this report failed to
fulfill the congressional mandate under which it was required, omitted
entire agencies with known investigations or activities related to UAPs,
and omitted any discussion of efforts to hide classified or

(03:15):
unclassified information about UAP. Such efforts were or unaddressed by
the report, despite the existence of agency records and investigations
concurring with them, including those at US Customs and Border Protection.
If we set up offices and oversight bodies only to
let them become graveyards for testimony, or worse yet, ruses

(03:37):
for pretending to investigate when in actuality there was no
follow up, then we are not doing our jobs. In
recent months, Congress has also been presented with evidence that
points to technologies that, to our knowledge, are beyond our
current capabilities. It is our duty as elected representatives to
follow the facts wherever they lead, and to ensure that
those facts are not buried under classification stamps or bureaucratic excuses.

(03:58):
Let me be clear, whether you vaps represent adders, serial technology,
natural phenomena, or something beyond current human understanding. Congress has
a responsibility to investigate. If these objects are foreign in origin,
then they pose a direct threat to our national security,
and if they represent something anknown they demand rigorous scientific inquiry,
not ridicule, not secrecy, and not silence. The stakes are

(04:19):
very high. Addressarah nations are not waiting for US to
catch up. They are studying these phenomena as well aggressively,
as multiple nations have also announced their own parliamentary investigations
into this very topic. If we are to continue to
hide information from ourselves, we risk strategic surprise. If we
continue to ignore a pilots and service members, as well

(04:40):
as countless government whistleblowers, we risk losing their trust. And
if we continue to shield the truth from the public,
we risk eroding the very foundation of democratic accountability. This
is why this hearing matters. This is not about fueling speculation.
This is about demanding the basic transparency from the Department
of Defense and the intelligence community and other military contractors.

(05:02):
It is about asking the questions every American has the
right to ask. What do we know, what don't we know?
And why in a free society are we being told
so little. A major barrier to this Committee's inquiry into
UAPs has been the lack of cooperation and transparency from
the Department of Defense and the intelligence community. In preparation
for previous UAP hearings, the Committee repeatedly asked the Department

(05:25):
of Defense to allow members to view videos and files
related to UAP incidences. Unfortunately, the Department of Defense notified
the committee staff that, due to the Department's Special Access
Program rules, only members of the House Armed Service Committee
as well as the Defense Subcommittee on House Appropriations also
known as hack D, were allowed to be read in
onto such programs. For a non committee member to be

(05:47):
allowed to view these documents and videos, individual members must
be approved by the chairman and ranking member of both
HASK and hack D. Independent SAP oversight has presented a
consistent problem for Congress, as well as program budgets are classified. Additionally,
oversight reporting to Congress is classified and only provided to
the authorizing and appropriations committees of jurisdiction. The American people

(06:10):
are not fragile. They do not need to be shielded
like children from reality. What they cannot tolerate and what
they will not forgive, is a government that withholds the
truth and punishes those who dare to speak up. I
want to close with this. Future generations will look back
at this moment and ask what we did when presented
with the unknown. Did we look away, embarrassed or afraid,
or did we pursue the truth with courage? I intend

(06:33):
to be on the side of truth, transparency, and accountability,
and I hope my colleagues on this task force will
be able to do the same. To quote a few
elected officials, Senator Schumer has stated multiple credible sources allege
a constitutional crisis over UFOs. Senator Rounds has stated that
these are brilliant individuals and they are not making this
stuff up in our current Secretary of State Marco Rubio

(06:55):
has stated very high clearances and high positions within our
government in regards to these whistleblowers. Senator McConnell also described
these whistleblers as stane, incredible, and the witnesses today are
not alone. In fact, they're far from it. In fact,
thirty four senior military, government and intelligent officials have broken
their silence. This includes Senator or now Secretary of State,

(07:17):
Mark Rubio, Senator round Senator jillibrand General Jim Clapper, the
former director of the government government's UAP Task Force, the
former head of aviation security for the White House National
Security Council, the former Secretary of Defense, and many more. Again,
to quote Secretary of State Rubio in an upcoming documentary
known as the Age of Disclosure, even presidents have been

(07:39):
operating on a need to know basis that begins to
spin out of control. And to quote Senator Jillibrand, who
also went public in this documentary, It's not acceptable to
have secret parts of this government that no one ever sees.
It's time for the fundamental truths of up to be
real to our nations, leaders and the public. It's time
for the government to exercise transparency. And with that I
yield to Banking Member Crockett for the opening statement.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Thank you so much, Madam Chair. At a time of
increasing distrust in government, it is important for Congress to
take action to restore the government's credibility. Bringing transparency to
an issue of great public interests is a step toward
doing just that. So I think Sharewoman Luna for calling
this bipartisan hearing to discuss unidentified anomalist phenomena or UAP,

(08:27):
which is today's term for what was commonly known as
UFO's unidentified flying objects. And while some people think of
flying saucers when they hear these terms, it is vital
that we focus on the real world's impact of UAPs
on critical infrastructure, civilian safety, and national security. There is

(08:49):
good reason to believe that most UAPs have origins far
closer to home. Currently, NASA has not found any evidence
that any UAPs have been extra terrestrial origin. Our adversaries
are working to develop new capabilities to gain military advantages,
and those efforts are likely explanation for the mysteries that

(09:13):
we have observed. Nevertheless, the federal government has a responsibility
to the American people to investigate and provide transparent disclosures
about every incident. The federal government is equally obligated to
protect those who report what they've seen, especially to commanding
officers and supervisors, and Congress should do everything in its

(09:35):
power to protect whistleblowers and conduct oversight of agencies that
are failing to provide that protection. Democracy depends on transparency,
and transparency often relies on the courage of individuals willing
to risk their careers, reputations, and in some cases, their
personal safety to tell the truth. So I look forward

(09:56):
to hearing from the witnesses today. We should welcome their
account and acknowledge the bravery they have shown to come
before us. We must ensure that all whistleblowers feel that
they can come to Congress to tell their stories without
fear of retaliation or of professional consequences. We need transparency,
not just to make better policy, but also to ensure

(10:19):
that information flows between all those who need it. There
are too many tragic examples in our history where information
lapses and a lack of cross agency coordination led to disaster.
Just this year, failure to communicate between FAA and the
Department of Defense led to tragedy over the Potomac. The

(10:41):
Biden Harris administration sought to eliminate some of these lapses
when it established the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office at
the Department of Defense. AERO can convene sources from all
branches of military, the FAA, and NASA to combine forces
to create a comprehensive picture of what is happening in

(11:02):
our skies. Some UAP reports have perfectly normal explanations satellites,
consumer drones, weather balloons, even pranks, but we need to
track down each and every single UAP. The United States
has millions of eyes in the sky, both electronic and human,

(11:23):
but only the combination of civilian, commercial, and military sources
can begin to create a complete picture. So we need
to ensure that people can come forward and report what
they have seen to the relevant authorities, and they have
to have the right to do so without fear of retaliation.
This country has a history of dedicated public servants standing

(11:45):
up for what is right, even in the face of
potential consequences. From the Pentagon Papers to Watergate to torture programs,
whistle blowers have not only informed the public, but also
empowered Congress to fulfill it is constitutional duty of oversight.
Past Congresses have written laws to grant legal protection for

(12:07):
whistle blowers, and it is up to us to work
responsibly with all sources to hold the executive branch accountable.
We are here today to listen to the stories of
those who have witnessed events of interest to the American
people and to support the policies that cultivate an environment
that welcomes and protects whistle blowers. I hope this hearing

(12:29):
will be an example of the respect and protection whistle
blowers deserve and the importance of conducting oversight of the
federal government.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
I yeel back. I am pleased to welcome the panel
of witnesses for today's hearing. I'd first like to welcome
mister Jeffrey Nussatelli. His the United State's Air Force veteran
and a career federal employee with more than twenty years
of experience in national security, law enforcement, and public administration. Next,

(12:58):
we have mister alex Alexandra Wiggins. Mister Wiggins is currently
serving as a Senior Chief Operation Specialist in the United
States Navy. Mister Wiggins is testifying in his personal capacity
today and not on behalf of the United States Navy. Next,
I would like to recognize a gentlewoman from Nevada, Representative Titus.

Speaker 3 (13:19):
Thank you very much, Madam Chairman, Ranking Members, for allowing
me to sit with you on this panel today. I'm
honored to be able to introduce a witness here who
is from my district, George Knapp, who has been the
definitive expert and reporter on this topic that you're exploring
today UAPs or UFOs. George is a longtime friend, I'll

(13:43):
say that up front, but a very respected journalist and
a recognized expert in this field nationally and internationally. Just
a little something about George. He came to Las Vegas
in nineteen seventy nine and joined KLS television station as
a general assignment reporter in nineteen eighty one. Since nineteen

(14:05):
ninety five, he's been the chief investigative reporter for that channel.
He also hosts a national radio show you can listen
to on Coast to Coast AM which covers many of
the paranormal topics that y'all are discussing. Over the years,
George has been, as I said, recognized for his work.
He's been honored with the Peabody Award, the DuPont Award,

(14:28):
the Edward Murrow Award, in twenty seven different regional Emmys
for his investigative reporting. Indeed, he has told Nevada's story
with the clarity, with objectivity, and with integrity. So I
know that his testimony today is going to be of

(14:50):
great interest and value to this committee.

Speaker 4 (14:52):
So thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Next we have mister Dylan Borland. Mister Borland is United
States Air Force veteran has a long career in federal service.
And finally I'd like to introduce mister Joe Spielberger, a
senior policy council at the Project of Government Oversight. Pursuant
to Committee Rule nine G, the witnesses will please stand
and raise the right hand. Do you solemnly swear or

(15:22):
affirm that the testimony that you're about to give is
a truth, the whole truth, and the nothing but the truth.
So help you God. Let the record show that the
witnesses answered and affirmative.

Speaker 4 (15:32):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
You may take your seat. We appreciate you being here
today and I look forward to hearing your testimony. Let
me remind the witnesses that we have read your written
statements and it will appear in full in the hearing record.
Please limit your oral statements to five minutes, but I
understand you have a lot to get through, so if
it goes a little over, don't worry about it. As

(15:53):
a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in
front of you so that it is on and the
members can hear you and begin to speak. The light
in front of you will turn green. After four minutes,
the light will turn yellow, and when the red light
comes on, your five minutes have expired and we will
ask you to please wrap it up. I now recognize
mister Nustelli for his opening statement.

Speaker 5 (16:15):
Good morning, Thank you Chairwoman Luna, ranking Member Crockett, and
members of the Task Force for giving us the opportunity
to testify today. My name is Jeffrey Neusatelli. I'm a
former military police officer with sixteen years of active duty
service in the US Air Force. I'm here today because

(16:35):
the American people have both the right and the responsibility
to know the truth about unidentified aerial phenomenon. That truth
remains hidden, classified, and silenced by fear, retaliation, stigma, and confusion.
Today we are here to help break that silence. Between
two thousand and three and two thousand and five, five

(16:57):
UAP incidents occurred at Vanderberg Air Force, home to the
National Missile Defense Project, a top national security priority at
the time. We were conducting launches deemed by the National
Reconnaissance Office as the most important in twenty five years.
These were historic launches. These facilities were vital, and they

(17:19):
were repeatedly visited by UAP. Each incident was witnessed by
multiple personnel, documented, investigated, and reported up the chain of command.
We sent information up, but we got no guidance down
on how to handle these events. I personally witnessed one

(17:39):
of these events and investigated others as they occurred. Six
other service members have provided me with the information that
I will share with you today. The incursions began on
October fourteenth, two thousand and three, when Boeing contractors reported
a massive glowing red square silently hovering over two missile

(17:59):
defence sites. After several minutes, it drifted further east onto
the base and vanished over the hills. This event, now
known as the Vanderberg Red Square, was referenced by Representative
Luna at the first hearing on this topic. Official Air
Force records of this event are in possession by ARROW

(18:19):
and the FBI. Later that night, while I was on duty,
security guards at a critical launch site reported a bright,
fast moving object over the ocean. I responded to the incident.
Chaos ensued over the radio as the object approached rapidly.
I heard my friends screaming, it's coming right at us,

(18:41):
It's coming right for us, and now it's right here.
Moments later, I heard them say that it had shot
off and was gone. When I arrived on scene, I
talked to five shaken witnesses who described a massive triangular
craft larger than a football field, that hovered silently for
about forty five five seconds over their enter control point

(19:02):
before shooting away at impossible speed. About a week later,
another patrol reported a light over the ocean behaving erradically.
Believing it might be an unannounced aircraft, they declared an
emergency and an armed response force responded before the forces
could arrive. The object descended and either landed or hovered

(19:25):
on our flight line, and then took off again at
impossible speed. The witnesses to this event were threatened and intimidated. Afterward,
they were told to keep quiet and think about what
they were reporting. After that, things did get quiet until

(19:46):
about two thousand and five, when another patrol reported a
massive triangular craft larger than a C one thirty silently
floating over the installation. He watched it for a few minutes.
It traveled west and disappeared into the night. And then
I had my own encounter again. In two thousand and five.

(20:07):
I was off duty, sitting in my backyard with two
other police officers when we noticed what first appeared to
be a satellite in orbit, but it wasn't acting like
a satellite. The light was strange. It was pulsing, and
then it started to maneuver. It dropped in elevation. At
times it would vanish from view and reappear in a
different location in the sky, and eventually it reappeared two

(20:29):
hundred feet over my house. It was a thirty foot
diameter sphere of light. My friends and I watched it
for a moment and then it gently accelerated and traveled
up and disappeared into the stars. These events profoundly changed
my life and the lives of my friends. We stand

(20:50):
at a pivotal moment in history. The question is no
longer whether these events are real, but whether we have
the courage to face them. True leadership requires vision, a
willingness to confront the unknown with transparency and resolve. So
I ask the Congress to help we the people, enact
this vision. There are three goals. Fund independent research and

(21:14):
treat UAP study with the same seriousness as we would
any other scientific field. Two end secrecy and overclassification. Transparency
is the foundation of truth. Without it, witnesses like us
are dismissed. Three. Protect the witnesses. Many stay silent out

(21:35):
of fear for their careers, reputations, and the safety of
their families. Protect them, and you will embolden others to
join this cause. These phenomenon challenge are deepest assumptions about reality, consciousness,
and our place in the universe. Exploring them can unlock
transformative breakthroughs in technology, biology, and human understanding. This be

(22:00):
the moment when America chooses courage over fear, transparency over
secrecy and progress over stagnation. Let's show the world that
our nation leads not only through strength, but through fearless
pursuit of the truth.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Thank you, Thank you, mister Nestelli, he's that on here.
I now recognize Chief Wiggins for his opening statement. Please
press your button. Thank you.

Speaker 6 (22:36):
Good morning, Chairwoman Luna, Ranking Member Crockett, and members of
the task Force and the Committee. Thank you for the
opportunity to testify today. My name is Alexandro Wiggins. I'm
an active duty US Navy Operation Specialist, senior Chief Pity Officer,
father of three, and dedicated American, testifying today in my

(22:57):
personal capacity. The views I share are my own and
I do not represent the official positions of the Department
of the Navy or any subordinate organization. On the evening
of February fifteenth, twenty twenty three, at approximately nineteen fifteen PST,
in the Whiskey two nine to one warning area off

(23:20):
the coast of southern California, I was serving on board
US S.

Speaker 7 (23:24):
Jackson.

Speaker 6 (23:26):
During that period, I moved between the Interior Communications Center
ICC one and the Bridge Wing, correlating the censor pitcher
with visual observations. Part of my routine responsibilities for surface
and air picture management. What I observed in what our
crew recorded was not consistent with conventional aircraft or drones

(23:50):
as they appear on our system. A self luminous tic
tax shaped object emerged from the ocean before linking up
with three other similar objects. The four then disappeared simultaneously
with a high synchronized near instantaneous acceleration. I observed no

(24:11):
sonic boom and no conventional propulsion signatures, no exhaust plume,
no control surface articulation on the Sapphire image system shortly
after the synchronized departure radar tracks dropped. These observations were
multisensor and recorded inside of ICC one with time location

(24:34):
overlay visible in our source frames that have been made
public by journalists. From my experience operating in this region
over many years, and consistent with our public characterized encounters,
unidentified objects reoccur in United States operation areas off southern California.

(24:57):
That fact alone does not tell us what they are,
but it does argue the systematic stigma free reporting and
for the preservation of sensor data so analysts can evaluate
safe and intelligence implications with rigor. I want to underscore

(25:18):
three points for the Task Force and the Committee, Aviation
and Maritime safety. When crews and watchstanders observe objects that
maneuver or accelerate in ways that does not match known profiles,
and do not do so near our ships and aircraft,

(25:38):
that is first and foremost a safety issue. Standardized checklist
and training should ensure we capture the best possible sensor
data in real time, including IR settings, slant range estimates
and bearing and range altitude snapshots, and immediate change chain
of custody for any recordings. Reporting without stigma protection without retribution,

(26:05):
Sailors need to know that reporting UAP encounters will not
harm their careers. Congress can help by reinforcing witness protection
and by directing the relevant office to maintain confidential destigmatized
channels for service members who step.

Speaker 8 (26:23):
Forward with data.

Speaker 6 (26:26):
Declassification and transparency where possible. The Task Force Declassification mission
is directly relevant here where operational security permits, releasing metadata,
preserved sensor excerpts or at least technical summaries would improve
public trust and accelerate outside scientific scrutiny that includes, when

(26:51):
feasible the time, GEO reference, IUR frames and radar parameters
needed for independent analysis. To be clear, I am not
here to make claims beyond my lane. I'm here to
provide a first hand account of what I saw, what
our systems recorded, and why it matters for safety, for intelligence,

(27:13):
and public confidence. My request to you is practical, help
us capture, protect fairly, evaluate the evidence, and provide a
safe pathway for those in uniform to report it. In closing,
I want to thank the Committee and the Task Force
for holding this hearing and for the plit, and for

(27:34):
placing this discussion in a form where evidence can be
examined carefully and openly. I appreciate your attention and stand
ready to answer your questions.

Speaker 4 (27:44):
Thank you, Thank you. Chief.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
I now recognize mister Napper's opening statement.

Speaker 9 (27:56):
Good morning, chair Woman Luna, ranking member Miss Crockett, and
members of the Task Force and Dinotitis. I just knew
we were going to get you involved in this topic
at one point. Great to see you here. I'm George Knapp,
chief investigator reporter at KLISTV in Las Vegas. I began
my pursuit of this weird mystery way back in nineteen
eighty seven, and for thirty eight years I've always approached

(28:18):
this as a news story. It's not a matter of
faith or belief to me. It's a story, and it's
an important one. I'm proud to be here alongside these
witnesses today, men who have seen strange things.

Speaker 10 (28:31):
And step forward to tell the world about it.

Speaker 9 (28:34):
Whistleblowers and witnesses who step up are routinely insulted, belittled,
or worse. They risk their reputations, their careers, their clearances,
their livelihoods, and sometimes much worse than that, even their freedom.

Speaker 10 (28:49):
I know that one of the.

Speaker 9 (28:50):
Goals of the task force here is to figure out
ways to protect whistleblowers and witnesses, and it's a tall
order because so many of the things that happened to
witnesses like these are extra legal. They're carried out by
persons unknown, as mister Dave Grush, sitting up at the
top of the room knows all too well, including events
in recent days that have happened to him. I want

(29:12):
to share a couple of things that I've learned along
the way on this long journey, and I submitted most
of that in written form because I estimate that my
statement here today would take about four and a half hours,
So I'm going to try to jump over and touch
on the more important salient points. I submitted the detailed
written statement for the record, and we'll go into a
lot of that here.

Speaker 10 (29:32):
But you know, the.

Speaker 9 (29:32):
Public has been told over and over since the late forties,
there's nothing to worry about here. These mysterious craft seen
by millions of people in the skies, in the oceans
over the land are not real. They're not a threat.
The witnesses are wrong, they're crack pots.

Speaker 10 (29:49):
Don't believe it. That changed for me.

Speaker 9 (29:51):
What got me hooked is the paper trail documents that
were squeezed out of the US government after the FOIA
Freedom of Information Act became the law of the land,
and those documents paint a much different picture than what
the public, the press, and Congress have been told over
many years. The documents from military and intelligence personnel behind

(30:13):
closed doors admit that quote, these things are real, they're
not fictitious. They can fly in formation, they're evasive, and
they outperform any aircraft known to exist, including hours. The public,
of course, as I said, has been told something much different.

Speaker 11 (30:26):
You know.

Speaker 9 (30:26):
Back in nineteen eighty nine, I reported about a guy
named Bob Lazar who claimed that he worked at a
facility dubbed S four out in the Nevada Desert, very
near to Area fifty one. He said he was part
of a reverse engineering program. He said, there are alien
craft that will be taken apart to figure out how
they operated out there. And that's what was a pretty
tall order. I had clearly taken a dive into the

(30:47):
deep end of.

Speaker 10 (30:48):
The pool there.

Speaker 9 (30:49):
But in the years since then, I've interviewed dozens of
other people, and I've detailed what their testimony has been
in the written statement. They include Senator Harry Reid, Senator
Howard Cannon, also of Nevada, a guy named Al O'Donnell
who was the first general manager of EG and G
in Nevada, which managed the Nevada Test Site which blew
up hundreds of nuclear weapons. There's a guy named doctor

(31:10):
James Lakatski who was a career scientist with a defense
intelligence agency, who was the guy who initiated a program
called AWSAP Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program, which is,
as far as we know, the largest acknowledged UFO program
ever funded by the US government, which put together an
amazing pile of information that members of this committee and

(31:33):
the world, most of which they have never seen. The
DIA still hasn't released ninety five percent of what was
prepared by that program, at a cost of millions and
millions of dollars. The one name I do want to
bring up in this section session, though, is Robert Bigelow.
So looking into the idea of crash retrievals and reverse engineering.

(31:55):
While AWSAPP that program was active, the diia's contractor, Robert
Bigelow of Las Vegas, made a bold attempt to acquire
physical proof.

Speaker 10 (32:03):
Of UFO crashes.

Speaker 9 (32:04):
It's been widely reported and suspected that Lockheed Martin is
one of the contractors, the defense contractors that has held
this stuff, stored it away in secrecy, and tried to
figure out how it works. I have confirmed on the
record that Robert Bigelow and a trusted colleague from OSAP
met with and negotiated with senior executives at Lockheed Martin

(32:28):
and hammered out a deal wherein Bigelow's company Bass would
receive a quantity of unusual material that had been stashed
away and protected at a facility in California. That material
was not made here. I want to move on now
to the Russia files, because that was going to be
sort of the central impetus of what I was going
to talk to you about today. Back in the early nineties,

(32:49):
I got into Russia met with a number of their
defense officials, Ministry Defense, and others who confirmed for me
that Russia had been doing the same thing that the
United States had been doing, that is, secretly studying UFOs
while publicly saying something completely different. The documents and interviews
that I obtained and have now shared with this task
force show that the USSR launched what is almost certainly

(33:13):
the largest UFO UAP investigation in the world. The first
phase of that was an order was sent out to
the entire USSR military empire that every unit you see
anything strange in the sky, a craft, an or something unusual,
you had to gather all the evidence, collect testimony from
the witnesses, look for physical evidence, and all of that

(33:35):
information went into one program at the Ministry of Defense.
Thousands and thousands of these reports came in. A lot
of them were first routed to the KGB, but then
back to another program that came after this collection effort
called Thread three, and Thread three was an analysis program
we have provided to the committee the documents of what

(33:56):
they were trying to do, and essentially they were trying
to build their own UFOs using the information from their
observations and studies to try to figure out that technology.
The guy who was in charge of that program, Colonel
Boros Sokolov, told me that their goal was to basically
develop technology that would be superior to anything we had
based on what they learned from UFOs.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
Mister Napp, just in the name of time, my understanding,
did you have anything you wanted to submit for Congress
to see in this committee?

Speaker 10 (34:25):
I have submitted those documents.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Like to play any videos? Do you have a video
that you would like to play?

Speaker 9 (34:31):
Don't think it's for me to play? No, Yeah, Alexander's video.

Speaker 10 (34:37):
Okay, you could play it, he could narrate it.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
Okay, we can. In the name of showing that video
to everyone on the task course, we'd like to play
that video at this time, maybe the jazz.

Speaker 7 (35:06):
We surprise your exety we call it the VVSS team.

Speaker 6 (35:11):
At like twenty two out of eight.

Speaker 10 (35:21):
That that shit took off earlier.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Sound if we can get rid of the audio real quick,
mister Wiggins and mister Napple We'll get back to what
that video was in a moment, but we just want
to make sure that it was entered into the record
as well as all the documents. Those will be able
to be publicly found for everyone in the country to
view if we could. Mister Napple will continue on the
line of questioning, but I'm gonna move on to mister
Borland's opening state.

Speaker 7 (35:47):
Lines the morning, Members of the Task Force and the Committee,
I would like to express my gratitude for being invited
to testify to the current task Force created under the
People's Chamber and American public. As an American citizen, veteran,
and intelligence community professional, it is an honor and a
privilege to serve under oath before you on behalf of

(36:09):
our country. I speak for myself in no former agency
or company I have been previously affiliated with. My name
is Dylan Borland, a former one one geospatial intelligence specialist
for the United States Air Force and an active duty
and listic capacity from twenty ten to twenty thirteen. I've
also been employed with BAE Systems and Intrepid Solutions as

(36:29):
a senior analyst expert in analyzing video radar and advance
electro optical imagery for official identification of aerial order of
battle as well as naval and ground order of battle.
I'm a federal whistleblower, having testified to both the ICIG
and ERA with direct firsthand knowledge of and experience with
craft and technologies that are not ours and are reportedly

(36:51):
operating without congressional oversight. Because of my direct knowledge of
the reality of certain legacy UAP programs, my professional career
was deliberately obstructed and I have endured sustained reprisals from
government agencies for over a decade. From twenty eleven to
twenty thirteen, I was stationed at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia,

(37:12):
conducting twenty four hour operations via mandon onun manned aarial
vehicles for Special Operations Forces in the Global War on Terror.
During the summer of twenty twelve, my team was on
standby for weather and I returned to my barracks on
base and at approximately zero one thirty I saw an
approximately one hundred foot equilateral triangle take off from near
the NASA hangar on the base. The craft interfere with

(37:35):
my telephone, did not have any sound, and the material
it was made of appeared fluid or dynamic. I was
under the triangular craft for a few minutes, and then
it rapidly ascended to commercial jet level in seconds, displaying
zero connectic disturbance, sound, or wind displacement. Some years after
that experience, I was further exposed to classified information from

(37:56):
the UAP legacy crash retrieval programs through a sensitive position
I held within a special access program. During this time,
intelligence officers approached me and fear for their own careers,
citing misconduct within these programs and similar retaliation that I
was already enduring at this time. These issues include medical
malpractice committed by veterans affairs staff, denial of work I

(38:18):
performed while listened in the United States Air Force forge
to manipulated employment documents, workplace harassment including colleagues being directed
to not speak with me, manipulation of my security clearance
by certain agencies, blocking, delaying, and ultimately removing my ability
to be employed within the IC. The retaliation I faced

(38:39):
and the retaliation against individuals I know who worked in
these programs is what convinced me in March twenty twenty
three to become a whistleblower. I came forward out of
concern for people's lives and to ensure I did everything
I could to let our elected representatives know the truth
about what is really happening in the executive Branch. At
the end of March twenty twenty three, I agreed to
meet with ARROW following the suggestion of other federal officials,

(39:02):
believing it was what our nation required of me. I
had reservations with ARROW due to assessments they were reporting
publicly at the time as a misrepresentation of the truth.

Speaker 12 (39:12):
Because of these.

Speaker 7 (39:13):
Concerns, I did not share sources and methods information in
order to protect current and formal federal personal personnel who
had firsthand exposure to technologies of unknown origin. I did
not want anyone to face further retaliation beyond what they
had already endured. An Unfortunately, a staff member ended up
getting in some trouble because of that. After David Grush

(39:35):
testified under oath in the summer of twenty twenty three
and provided historic disclosure, I was then asked to go
to the ICIG and did so in Artist twenty twenty three.
It was very clear early on during my intake interview,
which was video recorded under OATH, that the objective was
to solely assess how much I know and not move
forward with an investigation with new information I provided them.

(39:56):
The aftermath of that IG complaint still troubles me to
this Since my ICIG complant, I've been prevented from assuming
prior employment and can confirm I still blacklisted from certain
agencies within the intelligence community. In addition, multiple agencies attempted
phishing attacks to assess what I had divulged to the
Inspector General, including being asked to disclose details of my

(40:17):
ICIG complaint during a CI polygraph or a position unrelated
to UFO UAP matters. As recently as November twenty twenty four,
as I sit before you today, I and many other
whistleblowers have no jaw prospects, no foreseeable professional future in
a nation every single one of us came forward to defend.
Numerous individuals have come forward in various ways to reveal

(40:39):
the truth of the UAP reality as patriots and defenders
of our nation, Yet many feel discarded, isolated, hopeless, separated
from the country they serve. Efforts to rectify this situation
for all whistleblowers have been difficult, in troubling and to
my fellow whistleblowers and officials who know this information. I
offer you my apology, something that I have never gotten,

(41:02):
and I'm giving it to you. I swear an oh
to the Constitution of the United States and note that
the man's truth and transparency for our democratic republic to function.
Each day these truths remain hidden from our citizens' humanity
drifts further from the principles our nation was founded to uphold.
Each day victims of crimes committed by agencies and companies.

(41:23):
Maintaining this secrecy or deny justice, is another day our
constitution is shredded. In twenty twenty three, patriots provided this
committee in the Executive Branch with undeniable proof of the
UAP reality, and I commend your continued commitment. The future
of humanity is one which we either travel to the
stars or aggress to the Stone age with this technology.

(41:44):
My career has been to deliver critical information to decision makers.
Your role, as elected by your representatives, is to act
on it. The time to act is now.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
Thank you, mister Borland.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
Thank you for your service ch our country, and we
appreciate you and we are sorry about how you've been treated,
and we will make sure that we try to rectify
that situation. Mister Spielberger, please your opening.

Speaker 13 (42:28):
Remarks, Sharewoman Luna, Ranking Member Crockett, and task Force members,
thank you for the opportunity to testify here today about
the importance of strengthening whistleblower protections, especially in the context
of national security. I am a senior policy council at
the Project on Government Oversight, a nonpartisan, independent watchdog organization

(42:50):
that investigates and exposes waste, corruption, abuse of power, and
when the government fails to serve the public or silences
those who report wrongdoing. Whistleblowers are the first line of
defense to root out waste, fraud, abuse of power, and
corruption in our government. Congress relies on whistleblowers so that
it can fully exercise its oversight and legislative authorities. It's

(43:13):
understandable that former presidents of both parties have often taken
a hostile approach towards whistleblowers. Their disclosures can embarrass the
president and their political party, or even lead to a
national scandal. But whistleblowers continue to play a vital role
during both democratic and Republican administrations. They help Congress and

(43:34):
the public identify and understand what government corruption looks like.
Their disclosures fuel investigations and allow us to address wrongdoing
and hold those responsible to account. That's why historically there's
been a strong bipartisan consensus in Congress to support and
protect whistleblowers. Doing so protects the country and ensures our

(43:55):
government is more responsive and accountable to the people. National
security whistle blowing in particular is a tradition going back
to the founding of our country, and over time, national
security whistleblowers and their disclosures have impacted some of the
most fundamental issues and questions about how we wish to
be governed and how our government can better serve its people.

(44:18):
From the role the US plays around the world, to
holding powerful actors accountable, government ethics and transparency, human rights
and civil liberties, executive branch authority, First Amendment, freedoms of
speech and dissent, freedom of the press, and the public's
interest and right to know. Despite this invaluable public service,

(44:38):
blowing the whistle comes at great personal risk. Whistleblowers risk
losing their jobs, careers, livelihoods, and reputations. They can face
retaliatory investigations, lawsuits, and even serious criminal charges. And they
can endure deep mental, emotional, and psychological harm. All of
that risk to speak the truth to ensure that agencies

(45:01):
fulfill their core missions and that they serve the best
interests of the people. Those who retaliate against whistleblowers don't
just violate their legal rights.

Speaker 12 (45:10):
They inflict real harm on our government and betray the
public's trust.

Speaker 13 (45:15):
Targeting whistleblowers instead of the corruption they expose wastes agency
resources and further allows that corruption to continue unaddressed. It
can instill a chilling effect across an agency, fostering a
climate of fear and distrust, quieting dissent and tree speech,
and deterring potential whistleblowers from coming.

Speaker 12 (45:34):
Forward in the future.

Speaker 13 (45:38):
Whistleblowers are often some of the most dedicated and principled
public servants we have because of their willingness to put
themselves on the line to do what's right, and Congress
has historically supported them again on a bipartisan basis, But unfortunately,
whistleblowing has increasingly become more politicized, with support for whistleblowers

(45:59):
often hinging on which party is in power and which
party is politically inconvenienced by the misconduct being exposed. But
to be clear, targeting whistleblowers individually risks undermining whistleblowing period.
Pogo advises members of Congress on both sides of the
aisle to focus on the evidence, not the individual. We

(46:21):
will always need whistleblowers to achieve the government that best
serves its people, because when people of conscience, integrity, and
good character refuse to speak up out of fear, complacency,
or self preservation and leave corruption to fester behind closed doors,
that is probably the most dangerous risk of all. If

(46:41):
we are serious about increasing government transparency and restoring the
public's trust, we need public servants committed to the truth.
Whistleblowers need safe and effective channels to make lawful disclosures.
They need stronger protections against retaliation, and when they do
face retaliation, they need a fair shot to be made.

Speaker 12 (47:00):
Whole.

Speaker 13 (47:02):
Congress has made strides to pass whistleblower legislation, and these
laws need to be updated and expanded so that whistleblowers
truly receive the protections they need, retaliators are held accountable,
and we can achieve the type of government that people deserve.
We strongly urge Congress to continue its historic tradition of
championing the rights and protections of all whistleblowers. Thank you

(47:25):
again for the opportunity to testify here this morning. Pogo
is committed to working with you and the Oversight Committee
to address these critical issues. I look forward to any questions.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
Thank you, sir very much. Additionally, without objection, the Additionally,
without objection, the following members are waved onto the Task
Force for the purpose of questioning witnesses at today's hearing,
Representative Perry of Pennsylvania and Representative Goffman of Wisconsin. Sorry

(47:56):
own a, Representative Biggsrumers.

Speaker 14 (47:57):
And already got you.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
But yeah, we're good without objections, so ordered, I now
recognize myself for five minutes of questioning. Also as my
friend mister Mosquitz might have to go, would you like
to go?

Speaker 5 (48:11):
No?

Speaker 1 (48:13):
Okay, all right, mister Borland. In your testimony, you describe
witnessing large Trangler craft while station at Langley Air Force
Base in twenty twelve. Can you explain what you observed
in terms of size, behavior and why you're confident it
was not conventional technology?

Speaker 7 (48:28):
Great question, ma'am. So on barracks on the base. I
lived in the barracks there was a little smoke hit outside.
I was there on the telephone and looking across to
the flight line, and I see a white light pop
up and stop about one hundred feet in the air.
I thought it was a weather balloon. I've seen tests
from there before a weeknight. You know, normal thing, not surprising.

(48:51):
I actually finished my cigarette and I began walking up
towards the flight line. There is a track, and because
I was on three months of night work, I began
I would walk the track of night when we were
weather down. And as I began walking towards the light
towards the flight line in the track, the light then
flies across the base, across the flight line, and as

(49:12):
it flies to me, a triangle manifests around the light.
I can't tell you if it's active camouflage. I can't
tell you if it appeared around the light, but I
can tell you that it was a white light and
then it was a triangle. It stopped about one hundred
feet in front of me and approximately one hundred feet
above me. My telephone got extremely hot, completely froze dead.

(49:35):
I remember how thick it was. It was between one
to two story stick equilateral triangle. I could never see
the top of it, and the edges were ninety ninety degrees.
There were four lights in total, one light on each
corner and a larger light in the center two to
three times the size of the corner lights. But what

(49:56):
was really odd was the outside. The best way to
se describe it is like looking at a James Webb
telescope picture where you have the colors and then the
black background. So the craft itself was this black metallic
flight paint, but on top of the craft was this
gold lava plasma, some type of fluid going over and

(50:18):
around the craft. I'm under this for about two to
three minutes, and then the center light flashes two to
three times. No sound, immediately shoots up to commercial jet
level minimum in my opinion, and I immediately feel static
electricity all over my body, and then I smell the
smell of after a thunderstorm or lightning storm, that really

(50:40):
strong summer thunderstorm smell gets up to flight level. I'm
trying to get my phone reset and I can only
see the center light at this point. If I didn't
actually see it take off, I would have thought it.

Speaker 11 (50:52):
Was a star.

Speaker 7 (50:54):
And then it hovers up there and it begins to
slowly move dewy east out over the Atlantic Ocean. I
finally got my phone reset. The entire thing was about
from the time I saw the light pop up near
the hangar until it took off out over the ocean
was about fifteen minutes.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
And following up to that question, after you disclose this
information to the intelligence community, inspector general your subject to
phishing attempts and job blacklisting, how widespread do you think
this is across the intelligence community for those who raise
concerns regarding you AP programs.

Speaker 7 (51:25):
It's a difficult question to answer. I think prior to
David Grush and people beginning this process of bringing people
into awareness of the reality of these programs and certain
things people have witnessed, probably extremely widespread. I think today
there's still an issue, but because people are able to

(51:46):
come before you and people are speaking out, I think
it has been somewhat less. I would hope though, that
people would because if this goes back into closed doors,
this is going to get really ugly.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Type of behavior have you witnessed from former AERO director
Sean Kilpatrick as well as his staff and relate to
this information you provided to them, did they ever try
to classify this information as non human technology.

Speaker 7 (52:12):
Good question. The problem with this is that I know
what I experienced firsthand. I know other things. I think
the staff at ERA that I met with in March
of twenty twenty three, I think they were good people
doing the job they were told to do. I did
not meet with Kirkpatrick. He was either not president or
did not want to meet me that day. However, they

(52:35):
did classify information about the reality of this subject, and
it was very concerning because in my era MFR they
had actually referenced a former staff member that was the
one who told me to go there, and they probably
shouldn't have done that.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
And real quick before my time is up, and we
might go to second runt of question, just so you're
all aware, how important, given everything that you've seen in experience,
is the UAP Disclosure Act of twenty twenty five in
restoring both public accountability and trust.

Speaker 7 (53:09):
I think very important. I would hope though that the
seven year window could be shrunk my opinion, but very important.
The truth needs to be known.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
Thank you very much. I now recognize Jared Moscowittz of Florida.

Speaker 14 (53:25):
Thank you, Madame Chairwoman, Thank you for allowing me to
wave on to the committee. I remember, you know, the
last committee when we had a bunch of former military
personnel folks that either served on bases, were pilots, or
were in different programs experiencing knowledge. It made me recognize

(53:48):
that the narrative has changed. Right, it's politically convenient for
the government if you all weren't military folks and suits
would be much better if you pulled up in winnebagos
and we're wearing hats and so the picture of this
because that it's important for the American people on how

(54:09):
you tell a story, what the message looks like, and
who the messenger is. So this is now the second
or third committee where we have former military folks with
impeccable records, with information and knowledge, and it's definitely clear
on a bipartisan basis that we have to protect our whistleblowers.

Speaker 8 (54:27):
There's no doubt.

Speaker 14 (54:29):
And in a day in which it's really hard to
tell what's true or not from a political standpoint, and
so I don't really know what is true. I don't
know on this subject, but I do know when we're
being lied to, and we are definitely being lied to.

Speaker 8 (54:46):
There's just no doubt about that.

Speaker 14 (54:49):
Mister Wiggins, I want to talk to you. I find
your background testimony compelling.

Speaker 8 (54:55):
When you first saw.

Speaker 14 (54:58):
What you were looking on, what you were looking at,
what were your first thoughts.

Speaker 6 (55:05):
My first thoughts were, I think everything that I was
told and taught as a kid and a growing, growing
adult no longer uh, you know, was applicable. If I'm
able to see something that I thought defies gravity in
such a way, then what else could be possible?

Speaker 8 (55:22):
That was my first thoughts.

Speaker 14 (55:23):
So you did you think what you were looking at
was a weapons program that you were unaware of? Or
did you think what you were looking at was obviously
some extraterrest serial piece of technology.

Speaker 6 (55:36):
I didn't. Neither one of those crossed my mind. It
was just, how about now, what do you think it is?

Speaker 13 (55:43):
Now?

Speaker 6 (55:45):
I'm not the expert I think it. I want to
be as skeptical as everyone else and just hope to
know them from.

Speaker 14 (55:52):
Anyone in the US government tell you what you were
looking at to try to dissuade you from what you
thought it was. So no one was like, oh, you
know there was some anomaly with the technology.

Speaker 8 (56:03):
No one from the garment did that.

Speaker 14 (56:04):
No one, How do you think you were treated when
you reported this information or have talked about. You know,
the tic TAC video is well out there, it's well reported.

Speaker 8 (56:15):
How were you treated.

Speaker 6 (56:17):
I've I've had no pushback at all. I have haven't
had anyone reach out to me or try to, you know,
dissuade me in either direction militarily speaking. So I was
treated fair, and I appreciate the Navy itself with assisting
me with coming here to being able to testify.

Speaker 7 (56:36):
That's good.

Speaker 14 (56:36):
So what do you think the American people should take
away from watching your video?

Speaker 15 (56:41):
Right?

Speaker 14 (56:41):
Because when we watch it, obviously, right, we've never seen
anything like that. It defies what we know to be
technologically possible. What are we supposed to think someone's lying
about something, someone's hiding something? Right, that's not normal what
you looked at.

Speaker 6 (56:57):
I think what the American people should think when seeing
that video, along with others before me, is that there
is something out there, and we should know as the
people what it.

Speaker 8 (57:09):
Is, right, and so let's eliminate possibilities.

Speaker 14 (57:12):
So they didn't come to you and say there was
a technological error with what you were looking at, So
we put that aside. Right, they didn't say it was broken.
So we look at that and we see something. So
it's either a weapons program being reverse engineered by our
governments or other governments, or it's nobody's government and it's
not from here.

Speaker 8 (57:29):
Those those are it? You agree with that assessment?

Speaker 14 (57:33):
I agree one of the other mister Borland, when when
you first experienced what you were looking at.

Speaker 8 (57:42):
And you what did you do next?

Speaker 14 (57:44):
Like, what was your next step after it had passed
and you were done?

Speaker 7 (57:50):
I actually kind of laughed to myself and said, Okay,
so this exists as well. Worked in enough programs, been
exposed to enough that I was like, okay, so this
is a real thing. I went back, walked the track,
talked with a couple of my friends about it. I
did talk with some of my co workers, one in particular,
which I thought was a joke and it definitely wasn't.

(58:11):
Was like, you probably should never say this anybody. Uh,
And then what happened to me happened?

Speaker 14 (58:17):
So what about you, mister? How do you pronounce your lasson?
And sorry, I know I'm running out of time. Man'm chairman, chairwoman.
So obviously your incident happened well before we could record
things on cell phones and things of that nature. Right,

(58:40):
How do you what did you do when you first
experienced because what you saw right, you saw it happen
like right out of your base, correct, So tell me
what you did after.

Speaker 12 (58:50):
You saw that?

Speaker 14 (58:51):
What was like your next move? And I want to
hear how what your experience was.

Speaker 5 (58:54):
My next move. I went into my house after he left.
I made sure no one had been abducted, and I
picked up the landline. I called the Security Forces command center.
I reported it. I requested that they give me a
callback and make notifications up the chain of command. I
got a call back in about fifteen minutes. They reported

(59:17):
that the weather station reported no balloons or aircraft, nothing
on radar, no aircraft inbound or outbound. So I got
that notification, and then within the following day or two,
me and the other witnesses wrote statements we prepare to report,
and then we filed all that information.

Speaker 14 (59:35):
Madam Sureman, thank you for your indulgence in my questioning,
and thank you for continuing to lead on this subject.

Speaker 8 (59:42):
What are you and your friends think about it today?

Speaker 14 (59:46):
You all have talked about it, I mean, so what
do you think about your experience as a collective group?

Speaker 8 (59:51):
That'll be my last question, man, I'm sharely.

Speaker 5 (59:53):
I mean, we've been talking about this for twenty years.
We don't know what we saw. We saw changed our
lives and the way we think about everything. It was
incredibly profound. The object I saw, I don't even know
if it was an object. It was a it was
a light, it was an orb It didn't look like
a craft, but it did look solid. And that's what

(01:00:16):
we talk about. We noticed the object, and this was
a pattern across all the encounters. Someone would see a light,
they would pay attention to the light that and then
the object response it performs for you, and then they
come down and they investigate you. So it's almost like
they're curious. So that's the thing we primarily talk about.

(01:00:40):
You know, why did it come after we noticed it?
Maybe it noticed us after we noticed it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
Well, I now recognize representative maze for five minutes.

Speaker 16 (01:00:55):
Thank you, Madam Cheron. I want to thank all of
our witnesses for being here today. Mister Borland, I like
to start with you and ask a few questions. Were
there any other witnesses when you saw the equalateral triangle?
Were there other witnesses that saw the same thing?

Speaker 7 (01:01:09):
Not to my knowledge, ma'am. At that point, the only
people that would be awake is thus those of US
that were doing operations for the g WATT and then
security forces. So not to my knowledge.

Speaker 16 (01:01:19):
And do you think that, in your opinion that the
equal adult triangle was the US government's technology.

Speaker 7 (01:01:28):
I did once upon a time. But knowing what I
know now, I'll have to answer that question. Is a
skiff probably I was.

Speaker 16 (01:01:35):
Good one of my ask questions you teased us, So
knowing what you know now means what.

Speaker 7 (01:01:41):
I know enough to know that if you want to
answer to that question, go to Era. They had the answer.

Speaker 16 (01:01:46):
Do you think it was a foreign government?

Speaker 7 (01:01:49):
I do not know.

Speaker 16 (01:01:51):
And Aero is supposed to be disclosing. The last time
I was going to skiff with Arrow, they said they
were going to be doing disclosures. Had they been doing
much of that?

Speaker 7 (01:02:01):
I don't have an answer to you for you, I
don't know. I know what Aero reports publicly, and I
know what I've been through.

Speaker 16 (01:02:07):
Yeah, and some of this stuff can be I think debunked.

Speaker 9 (01:02:12):
Right.

Speaker 16 (01:02:13):
There are sometimes there are weather balloons that look kind
of a little funky, or drones or whatever, depending on
the angle direction speed et cetera. Are you scared for
your safety?

Speaker 7 (01:02:25):
That's a complicated question. So being here today, if I
say the wrong word, technically I can be charged with espionage.
Espionage is a death penalty. Whistleblowers have faced it. John Kerrioku,
for example, I am not scared for my physical safety
in the sense of an agency or company coming to
kill me. But I have no job. My career has

(01:02:49):
been tarnished. You know, I'm unemployed, living off of unemployment
for the next three four weeks until that's gone. So
it's a complicated question.

Speaker 16 (01:02:58):
Have there been stories leaked about your life? I have
to try to discredit you in the public eye.

Speaker 7 (01:03:03):
As of now, I don't know.

Speaker 8 (01:03:05):
I'll be that to mister Grush.

Speaker 7 (01:03:07):
I am aware, yes, ma'am.

Speaker 4 (01:03:08):
They leaked his.

Speaker 16 (01:03:09):
Medical private medical information, horrific things.

Speaker 7 (01:03:12):
It is.

Speaker 16 (01:03:14):
Okay you said in your testimony earlier with the chairwoman,
you know other things. I guess it has to be
mentioned in a skiff.

Speaker 7 (01:03:23):
It would other things. It would pending I'm even legally
allowed to speak on and the people in the room
are even legally allowed to hear it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
And is that would we need to know?

Speaker 16 (01:03:32):
Like the the compartmentalized word like what the code word
is or the name of the program, the special Access
program or even hear it. You have to know the word, right,
I would say the name of it?

Speaker 7 (01:03:42):
Right, I would suggest that to be asked to d
and I gabbered and work with her for that because
I can't give you the answer on what is the requirement.

Speaker 16 (01:03:51):
This is what the US government does, right. They compartmentalize
the informational least certain people know the name of the program,
and if you don't know it, you can't get the information.
If you don't have the name, you don't know what
a ask for. Even when we're reviewing the budget, we
go into a skiff. We look at DoD budget and
the budget of like black box programs, and we don't
know what we're looking at because we don't know what
these programs are. Is it a way for the government
to hide from Congress what's really going on, where the

(01:04:14):
money's going.

Speaker 7 (01:04:15):
In my opinion, absolutely yes.

Speaker 16 (01:04:18):
You mentioned to you in your testimony earlier that quote
you went to speak with the government and they said
they said somebody's name of a colleague name. You said
they shouldn't have mentioned that staff person's name. What does
that mean?

Speaker 7 (01:04:31):
A Senate staffer who is the one who helped me
get to Arrow recommended me I go there, gave me
the email and the phone number because I could not
find that information at all at the time. In fact,
I believe you guys have talked about how Aero didn't
even have a website for quite a period of time.

Speaker 16 (01:04:44):
We were told they were going to do disclosures, both
what they've debunked, because some of it can be bunked,
and then what they haven't been able to debunk, and
to my knowledge, you know, it hasn't been a thing.
I only have one minute left, so mister Nap, we
were definitely going to watch every documentary you guys have done.
You and Jeremy have done.

Speaker 4 (01:04:59):
A terrific job.

Speaker 16 (01:05:01):
I usually have more questions than I have answers. I
think we all do, and you guys are doing a
trific job to bring information to the public. Do you
think that any of this is a syop by the
US government?

Speaker 9 (01:05:11):
Entirely possible. I mean, our government and other governments have
admitted that they've tried to use UFOs to cover secret projects,
but I think they also do some reverse engineering of
those claims. So years after people start seeing UFOs over
Area fifty one, for example, they come up with the story,
Oh yeah, that was we planted that story. So I

(01:05:33):
read in a major newspaper just a couple of weeks
ago they planted this story. An Air Force colonel went
out into the desert, went to a bar at Rachel
and gave them some fake UFO photos. And that's how
the whole story about Area fifty one started, which is preposterous.

Speaker 16 (01:05:48):
Yeah, and I didn't even get to the crash retrieval
program stuff yet, miss chairwoman.

Speaker 4 (01:05:53):
There's just so much.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
Okay, thank you so much for your time today.

Speaker 4 (01:05:57):
Wish we had more time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
Thank you, Madam Sure, I now recognize missus Crockett for
five minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Thank you so much, Madame chair and thank you so
much to each of the witnesses that have come before
us today. The federal government has had a long standing
over classification issue in general. We all know that from
the assassinations of MLK and Malcolm X to the cointail
pro and torture programs to now UAPs, the federal government

(01:06:33):
has kept the American public in the dark about issues
of immense public interest. The federal government has routinely made
excuses for failing to provide transparency to the public, the
most common of which is national security concerns. Mister Spielberger,
can you provide an example of when national security was
inappropriately used as a pretext for classification.

Speaker 13 (01:06:58):
Congresswoman, Probably one of the most infamous examples of that
is the nine to eleven Commission that found that overclassification
was a key factor in the failure to adequately prevent
the attacks of that day.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
In addition to that, what lessons from these oversight failures
should guide Congress in approaching UAP oversight?

Speaker 13 (01:07:24):
Generally speaking, we would advise this Congress to ensure that
agencies adopt general policy in favor of disclosure instead of
a knee jerk needing to overclassify information and documents. We
should ensure that when information is classified or deemed sensitive,

(01:07:47):
it's only for legitimate national security and privacy concerns, And
we would recommend adding additional factors to the considerations of
cost value, and certainly to the extent that it's critical
for the public interest and the public's right to know,
especially when we are talking about these very serious national

(01:08:11):
security concerns and implications.

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
Can you speak to how whistleblowers have historically helped Congress
uncover the truth in other areas, and how that might apply.

Speaker 13 (01:08:21):
Here Absolutely so Again, Congress has always relied on whistle
blowers coming forward and making disclosures in a number of
different issues across different agencies, anything from national security to
airline safety, railway safety, environmental concerns, workplace health and safety,

(01:08:48):
a lot of issues coming out of the COVID pandemic,
for example. Whistleblowers have come forward with important disclosures on
just about any critical issue affecting our government and affecting
the American people, all of which have grave implications for
the rights and protections that we have and how we

(01:09:09):
live our lives in communities across the country.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
How important is it for whistleblowers to have strong protections
when it comes to UAP related disclosures or disclosures of
other topics of excessive government secrecy.

Speaker 12 (01:09:25):
It's absolutely vital.

Speaker 13 (01:09:26):
This has been one of the disappointing failures of doing
this work of advocating for stronger whistleblower protections. We recognize
the invaluable public service that brave whistleblowers play in coming
forward again taking all of these risks that we've heard
about just to speak the truth, to get important information

(01:09:50):
out in the public consciousness. But they can only do
so when we have safe and secure channels for reporting,
when there is trust in the independence of agency watchdogs
like Inspectors General, like the Office of Special Counsel, like
the Merit Systems Protection Board, that play critical roles in

(01:10:12):
investigating whistleblower disclosures and enforcing the protections of whistleblowers. All
of that is essential to allow whistleblowers to keep coming
forward and playing these incredibly important public roles.

Speaker 4 (01:10:28):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
Let me just say this, people look at Congress, especially now,
and they see a lack of unity. They don't see
the ability for us to come together really on much
of anything. I will say that I do applaud the
chairwoman and the work of this committee because for once
I feel like we are focusing on governing, which should

(01:10:51):
be about transparency.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
The reality is that we.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
Cause more harm than good when we allow a lack
of trans parency to fester. It allows for all types
of conspiracy theories instead of us actually making the investments
that we need to make to get the information and
actually provide it to the American people. The reason that
I wanted to focus on making sure that we answer

(01:11:16):
some questions, specifically around the protections of those that are
willing to come forward, is because the only way that
we can make this government actually work for all of
us is if, no matter where you are in this
federal government, you feel as if you are safe when
you come forward with information of any issue. And so

(01:11:38):
I do want to thank you for all of your stories.
The reality is that we only get five minutes, and
the vast majority of everything that you have to say
cannot be contextualized within five minutes. But I know that
my colleagues are going to get to kind of pulling
some more of that out. But again, I really just
want to thank you for your courage in this moment,

(01:12:00):
and thank you for your service to our country.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
I now recognize mister Burchett from Tennessee for five minutes.

Speaker 11 (01:12:13):
Thank you, Chair Lady, and thank you Ranking Member Crockett.
I see a lot of friends out there, and I
see a couple enemies, so I'll remember that. But it's
a pleasure being here. I want to remind people too,
this thing is an ongoing deal. We're not going to
get this overnight. We've been fighting this battle, some of

(01:12:34):
y'all for thirty years and maybe longer. I hope we
just keep focused on what we're trying to get to
as total disclosure. We get a little wrapped up in
a lot of things. But the government has something and
they need to turn it over to us. We pay
their dad gum salary. You pay our salary, and you

(01:12:55):
ought to get more out of us than you do.
And that's what disgusted me about this whole thing. I
think they're just trying to run the clock out on us. Really,
they'll poke us a little, they'll make jokes to us
and try to pull us off the target. But I
think we know where we're at, and that's why they're
firing at us, because we are over the target. My

(01:13:16):
first question is, mister Knapp, I recently introduced the UAP
Whistleblower Protection Act to help provide whistle blower protection to
federal personnel for closing the use of federal taxpayer funds
to investigate UFOs. I still don't want to say, UAPs,
how can Congress further increase whistle blower protections.

Speaker 9 (01:13:41):
I think you've got to unleash the dogs and go
track down the money and where it goes. Because a
lot of this stuff has been moved out of government,
as you know Burchett, It's been given to private contractors
who stashed it away.

Speaker 10 (01:13:53):
They've had it for so.

Speaker 9 (01:13:54):
Long that there's nobody left inside government or very few
who know where it is.

Speaker 11 (01:13:59):
And they do that to keep us from FOYA. Correct.

Speaker 10 (01:14:01):
Yeah, it's going to keep it from FOYA.

Speaker 9 (01:14:03):
And I think that the contractors had this stuff for
a very very long time, set their own standards about
who is allowed to know what, and it's a very small.

Speaker 10 (01:14:13):
Group that ever cracks that. I think Representative.

Speaker 9 (01:14:17):
Luna has been looking at the use of classifications to
hide things. I'm not sure that even this committee getting
security clearances that should allow you to see this stuff
would allow you to follow where it really goes.

Speaker 11 (01:14:30):
I worry about the people that are looking at it
don't even know what they're looking at. I mean, it's
gone through so many I mean since Oswell, for instance.
I mean you think there's nobody even allow that was
around any of that stuff.

Speaker 9 (01:14:43):
So I don't think they've made much progress. From the
people that I've talked to, I don't think they've made
much progress and learning that technology might have made some,
but you wonder you know the implication is tiktac Oh, Yeah,
that's ours with flu over Washington.

Speaker 5 (01:14:55):
D C.

Speaker 10 (01:14:56):
And fifty two? Is that ours too? What are you
going to break that out?

Speaker 9 (01:14:58):
You guys authorized tens of billions, hundreds of billions of
dollars on weapons systems that can't do half of what
we've seen you if UFOs do so, when did they
break this out? If it's really a classified project could
change the world. I don't think they've made much progress,
and I think they've been lying to us and you
and the rest of the world and they're still doing it.

Speaker 11 (01:15:19):
Yes, sir, I agree with you. How did you manage
to obtain the classified Russian uIP documents and how did
you get them back in the United States?

Speaker 9 (01:15:28):
Well, I met this Russian physicist who was in the
United States.

Speaker 11 (01:15:32):
Now I want to clarify that I can't even take
a thing of honey home on my airplane when I
fly back to Tennessee.

Speaker 10 (01:15:40):
I did something pretty dumb.

Speaker 11 (01:15:41):
And I'm bitter about it, but go ahead.

Speaker 10 (01:15:43):
I did something kind of dumb.

Speaker 9 (01:15:44):
I met with these officials who you know during that
time period, Glasnows Perastroika. The Russians were trying to open
up to the world, and I saw it as a
window of opportunity, and it was, and we were able
to talk these folks into providing us information that otherwise
we would never have.

Speaker 10 (01:15:59):
Seen, and some of that was classified.

Speaker 9 (01:16:02):
I found out that they only stamped the top pages
of these documents that were classified, so I just removed them.
I removed those pages and I carried them out, And
if they'd caught me, I'd be in a gulag.

Speaker 12 (01:16:12):
Still.

Speaker 11 (01:16:12):
Yeah, we'd be saying what happened to George nap Oh? Yeah,
what happened to the Russians that came forward to you
in nineteen ninety three? And were there any repercussions for them?

Speaker 9 (01:16:23):
Well, there were the first thing that happened when I
talked about this after getting back and going through the
files and things and sifting through it, the Russian physicists
who had helped us being introduced all these people wrote
back and said there was a huge eruption that there
was the real right, far autocratic forces that wanted a

(01:16:47):
return of the USSR had really go after these guys.
They described them as traders. Nikola Kapranoff, the physicist friend
of mine, said, look, if this has happened five years earlier,
we would be in prison. If it had happened ten
years or we would have been shot. Luckily, at that
point Putin was not in power. But none of those
people that we talked to on that trip in nineteen

(01:17:07):
ninety three would ever talk to me again. I went
back in nineteen ninety six, and it was like I
had the plague. Spoke to different people, but they were scared,
and eventually the story was spun where the Ministry Defense
officials who gave us this information were described as ufologists
who said there was nothing really significant to these files.

(01:17:27):
They didn't really find anything a big deal, and I
can tell you you'll see those files that I shared
with you.

Speaker 10 (01:17:33):
They did find stuff.

Speaker 9 (01:17:34):
There was an incident in October nineteen eighty two over
an ICBM base where.

Speaker 10 (01:17:39):
UFOs popped up. Was observed.

Speaker 9 (01:17:41):
Over this base where the missiles are pointed at US
the United States. These UFOs perform in credible maneuvers. They
split apart, they fused back together. They'd appear and disappear,
and right at the end of this four hour period,
the launch control codes for the ICBMs lit up, something
entered the correct codes. The missiles were fired up and

(01:18:02):
ready to launch, and they could not shut it down.
The Russian officers were panicking. The UFOs go, they disappeared,
The launch control system goes back to normal. Colonel Sokolov
and his team came in, took the thing apart. Could
not figure out what it was. It wasn't a power
surge or EMPs or some of the ballooney excuses that
our country has given for similar events involving our nuclear missiles.

(01:18:23):
They thought it was a message from wherever the UFOs
were from. And that's a chilling thing. I mean, that
was we were a couple of seconds away from World
War three starting and the UFOs were responsible for it.

Speaker 11 (01:18:33):
All right, I'm out of time, but real quick, who
are the contractors that had this material corporations?

Speaker 10 (01:18:39):
Well, one of them is Lockheed, And I'll tell you.
I mean, you know, I'm not saying Lockheed's the bad guys.
They're doing what they were asked to do. They have
lied about this because they're what they're supposed to do.

Speaker 9 (01:18:48):
But Lockheed would be one. There's a list I can
give you, Congressman. Some of the big ones, the usual suspects.

Speaker 11 (01:18:54):
Okay, thank you you back cheer lady. Sorry for going
over aw George Knap's fall.

Speaker 1 (01:19:02):
I now recognized miss Bobert for five minutes.

Speaker 17 (01:19:06):
Thank you, Madam, Chair Chief Wiggins. Based on your training
and operational experience, could the behavior that you witnessed a
trans medium object vanishing without a sound be explained by
any known technology that we possess or other governments possessed?

Speaker 6 (01:19:23):
It cannot?

Speaker 17 (01:19:25):
And has any government agency debriefed you or any of
your shipmates regarding the EO I R and radar confirmed
u AP encounter aboard USS Jackson.

Speaker 8 (01:19:38):
No one has, Newman, what.

Speaker 17 (01:19:41):
Was that encounter like when you brought that up? If
you want to briefly summarize that, when you brought that
to their attention and then you were not provided any
follow up?

Speaker 4 (01:19:52):
Who was told?

Speaker 8 (01:19:53):
And what?

Speaker 17 (01:19:55):
How did you feel when there was no contact.

Speaker 6 (01:19:57):
Back to you as or is the actual incident happening
or the reporting level?

Speaker 14 (01:20:04):
Uh?

Speaker 6 (01:20:04):
It was within the event happening. My duties are to
report to the tactical action officer on watch while we're
standing watch, So uh, tactical action officer was there. I
made my report I've not had any discussion outside of
that day. There's been no communication to me or requests

(01:20:26):
from me uh to you know, within side of the military.
But speaking of that actual incident itself, once the report
was made to the Tactical Action Officer, UH, that's when
I made the decision to ask the individual watchstander that
was controlling Sapphire to be able to slew into the location.

(01:20:51):
And that's what you see in the video itself, is
when the watchstander is slewing in and kind of showing
us what we're looking at. But outside of that, that's
as far as the reporting went that I know of.

Speaker 4 (01:21:06):
Thank you, Chief.

Speaker 17 (01:21:07):
Just for the sake of time, mister Nussatelli, has the
Air Force or the FBI ever followed up with you
personally about the Red Square event?

Speaker 5 (01:21:17):
I did have follow up by Arrow. Nothing with the
Air Force. The Arrow Office updated me. I think at
least two times they let me know that they were
unable to locate any records, that the records had been
destroyed by the Air Force. The Air Force is destroying
all their police records every three years on a schedule,

(01:21:39):
so you.

Speaker 17 (01:21:39):
Were informed that these documents were destroyed.

Speaker 5 (01:21:43):
Well, I have a Freedom of Information Act from the
Air Force to states clearly that they destroy all police
records on a three year schedule.

Speaker 17 (01:21:51):
Okay, so they were sitting on documentation, destroyed it, refused
to question any of the lead investigators anything leading into
this investigation.

Speaker 5 (01:22:05):
Yeah, basically they destroyed all the police records, so you
couldn't even like call the Air Force and asked them
if there was a vehicle accident in that timeframe. So
that's a big problem. We're losing data in real time,
so we'll never be able to go back in track.

Speaker 17 (01:22:21):
Our federal government has a history of destroying records. Thank you,
Thank you very much, mister news to Telly, doctor Borlan,
as a geospatial intelligence officer, have you seen classified data
indicating UAPs operate in restricted US airspace and has that
information been withheld from Congress?

Speaker 7 (01:22:42):
I have not in US airspace that is intelligence oversight,
so I did not have domestic authorities.

Speaker 17 (01:22:49):
After filing your inspector general complaint over retaliation inside the
Pentagon's UAP office, did you receive any kind of protection
or just.

Speaker 7 (01:22:59):
More retel within the IG or the or aero man
either arrow they went after the staff member and classified
everything shut that down the ig To this day, I
don't even know if my complaint's active. I know my
attorney that represented me was very, very very concerned, and

(01:23:19):
the best of my understanding, I was determined credible, not urgent.

Speaker 17 (01:23:23):
And do you think that that experience would suggest that
the internal UAP investigations may may be compromised?

Speaker 7 (01:23:34):
Possibly? I mean, it's so hard because this goes back
to people doing the job they're told to do, and
very few people are going to want to give up
their careers, twenty thirty year pension, give up, get rid
of their kids' healthcare, get rid of their house. It's
it's possible.

Speaker 17 (01:23:50):
Yes, yes, thank you very much, doctor Borlan, Mister Spielberger,
do national security whistleblowers currently have any external appeals processes
to challenge retaliation or are they just stuck relying on
the same agencies that they're accusing?

Speaker 13 (01:24:08):
Congress Woman, this is one of the biggest concerns that
we at POGO have basically around the independence of investigations
and accountability for retaliation. Basically, yes, national security whistleblowers have
to rely on internal administrative processes that go through agency
inspector generals. There are some differentiations, but the bottom line

(01:24:33):
is that they are forced to rely on protection from
the same agencies and people who they are alleging retaliated
against them.

Speaker 17 (01:24:42):
Yes, well, I thank you all for your bravery. We
are out of time here. Thank you so much for
coming forward, and we will do everything that we can
to ensure that you are all protected. Thank you for
trying to bring truth and transparency to the American people.

Speaker 1 (01:24:54):
Madam Cherry Yield, I now recognize mister Berlisson for about
five minutes.

Speaker 18 (01:24:59):
Thank you one.

Speaker 19 (01:25:00):
It takes such great courage to come forward, and we
acknowledge that, and I hope that you see that we
are taking that seriously and so very thankful for what
you're doing today. I'm also very thankful for previous witnesses
that have come forward. I see Matthew Brown in the audience.
He courageously step forward and was as a as a witness.

(01:25:20):
I encourage everybody to look and seek his his testimony.
I want to thank the people that came in our
first hearing, Ryan Graves, David Grush, David Fraver, and in
our second hearing, Admiral Galadet, lou Elizondo and mister Gold
and the many others that have come forward.

Speaker 18 (01:25:40):
We hear you, and it's time that we.

Speaker 19 (01:25:42):
You know, enough is enough, It's time that we take action. Look,
I'm not I'm not jumped to the conclusion that I
believe that there are you know, aliens coming from another planet.
But I'm open to that, and I think that it's
my our responsibility, especially when we're seeing that we have
a government that is blocked, bocking, actively blocking.

Speaker 18 (01:26:01):
Information from us.

Speaker 19 (01:26:03):
Just last night, I tried to get an amendment onto
the National Defense Authorization Act that fit in the GERMANEENUS
of that bill to have UAP disclosure, and conveniently it
was named non Germaine mostly deemed by staff, not even
an elected official. This is the kind of stuff that
we repeatedly see. Last year, we were blocked by someone

(01:26:27):
in House administration from being able to receive a full
briefing from Arrow. So not an elected official, but someone
in staff blocked us.

Speaker 18 (01:26:37):
And I've had it. Enough is enough.

Speaker 19 (01:26:40):
I want to queue up a video that I've been given,
and as before it starts, I'm going to describe. This
was taken October thirtieth of twenty twenty four. This video
is of an m Q nine drone tracking an orb
or this object off the coast of Yemen. You'll see
that another m Q nine launched a hellfire missile that

(01:27:03):
you cannot see that drone and so uh, you'll and
I'm not going to explain it to you, you'll see
exactly what it does. M This is when it zoomed out,

(01:27:46):
so you can still see it traveling. So, mister Nap,
do you have any have you heard about, you know,
events like this occurring and what information might you have?

Speaker 9 (01:28:07):
I have heard about events like this. I have heard
about this event. Jeremy Corbel and I talked about it
in one of our episodes a while back. We did
not have the video, though there are servers where there's
a whole bank of these kind of videos that Congress
has not been allowed to see, that public hasn't been
allowed to see. Occasionally, some of that stuff gets out
in the wild and it comes our way. It should

(01:28:29):
be going to you, you know, the public should be
seeing this stuff.

Speaker 10 (01:28:33):
And why you're not allowed to I don't know.

Speaker 9 (01:28:34):
But that's a hell fire missile smacking into that UFO
and just bounced right off and it kept going.

Speaker 19 (01:28:41):
It kept going, and it looks like the debris was
taken with it.

Speaker 10 (01:28:44):
Yeah, what what the hell is that?

Speaker 19 (01:28:46):
So again I'm not going to speculate what it is,
but the question is what you know? Why are we
being blocked from from this information consistently? I want to
ask this just a question, how in the world this
is the doctor? And I want to enter this in
for the record, if it hasn't already been entered Madam
chair the documentary provided on thread three. This is a

(01:29:08):
huge file. How in the world did you smuggle this
out of Russia.

Speaker 18 (01:29:13):
Carefully in your socks?

Speaker 9 (01:29:16):
And I don't think I want to be really specific
about it because I might have to go back there
and get some more sometime, although now I'd be crazy
to do that. Well again, I took the top pages
off that were stamped with a security signature and I
carried them out on my person, But the rest of
them I just threw in my suitcase and threw some
caviaar in there as a distraction as well, and hoped

(01:29:39):
for the best. Otherwise I'd be a citizen of Siberia
right now.

Speaker 19 (01:29:43):
And you had you reported James Lkatski came to you
with government possession of nhi craft and how they ultimately
gained entry. Can you testify to the veracity of that claim?

Speaker 9 (01:29:57):
Doctor Lakatski is an honorable man who's most of his
career with the DA, A very trusted, high level rocket
scientist and intelligence analyst who inspired the ASAPP program. As
I said earlier and in full disclosure, I've co written
two books with him. He dropped this on myself and
our other co author, Out of the Blue, and it

(01:30:18):
took fourteen months for us to get dopster approval for
him to release two sentences on that. He said, this
craft we had managed to get inside of it. It
had no wings, no rotor, no tail, It had no fuel,
no fuel tanks.

Speaker 10 (01:30:33):
They didn't know how it flew or how it was operated.

Speaker 9 (01:30:36):
It clearly looked like it was aerodynamic, but he would
not go further. He's by the book guy, and until
he gets clearance to say more about that, I don't
think we're going to hear much more.

Speaker 10 (01:30:47):
But it's not ours. It wasn't ours. We didn't make it.

Speaker 9 (01:30:51):
We didn't know who made it and how it was
built and how it operated.

Speaker 10 (01:30:54):
We've got at least one, and I.

Speaker 9 (01:30:56):
Don't know I think that's enough confirmation that we do
have a disks and material.

Speaker 18 (01:31:01):
Leslie, mister Berlin.

Speaker 19 (01:31:04):
In the in the classified realm, have you been exposed
to undeniable confirmation of NHI technology? And then my second
question is is Base Systems involved in any way with
reverse engineering exploitation of non human intelligence craft.

Speaker 7 (01:31:21):
Yeah, we're gonna have to call We're gonna have to
have a conversation with Skift for that. Whether I'm legally
even allowed to answer that, and whether you're even allowed
to hear it, sir.

Speaker 19 (01:31:29):
Okay, again, you can you can sense our frustration, and
so I just want to thank you for coming forward.
We will continue to fight because look, this is about
making sure that this government belongs to the people, in
restoring the republic the way it was intended to.

Speaker 18 (01:31:44):
Be, Madame Chair.

Speaker 19 (01:31:46):
I also have further witnesses of courageous individuals. It was
given to me by doctor Stephen Greer, including Michael Herrera
and his testimony. We have Roderick Cassel and his testimony,
Randy Anderson his testimony, Steven Digna and others, three others

(01:32:07):
all saying similar things to what the witnesses today have said.
And I would like to enter that into the record
as well.

Speaker 1 (01:32:12):
No objection.

Speaker 18 (01:32:13):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:32:14):
I now recognize Representative Lee for five minutes.

Speaker 20 (01:32:18):
Thank you, Madam chair. I think we need to make
sure that we don't get distracted by sensational stories only
of unidentified anomalists phenomena and lose track of what the
core of this hearing is about. This is all a
perfect example of why whistle blowers are so important and
why it's so important that we step up and protect them.

(01:32:41):
With Trump RFK, Junior EPA Administrator Lee Zelda and others
committed to dismantling government and firing professionals who do dare
to speak out against the threats this administration's disastrous policies create.
We have to focus on protecting all whistlers, not only
the ones who are reporting. I'd like to thank the

(01:33:01):
whistleblowers who have agreed to come before the committee today
and speak their truth. This administration's claims to care about
waste fraud and abuse, and so often it is the
whistleblowers who care and who are the tip of a
sort fighting against the real waste fraud and abuse. One
study found that whistleblowers exposed fraud at more than twice

(01:33:22):
the rate of third party auditors So, mister Spielberger, what
are some of the best examples of whistleblowers exposing fraud
and abuse in the federal government?

Speaker 12 (01:33:34):
Thank you, Congresswoman.

Speaker 10 (01:33:35):
Again.

Speaker 13 (01:33:35):
Whistleblowers have played such a vital role across so many
different issues. One prominent example goes back to the twenty
fourteen via Weightless scandal.

Speaker 12 (01:33:46):
Pogo actually played a very.

Speaker 13 (01:33:48):
Instrumental role coordinating with Iraq and Afghanistan veterans of America.

Speaker 12 (01:33:53):
At that time.

Speaker 13 (01:33:53):
We receive tips and whistleblower disclosures from over eight hundred
different individuals talking about the v A subjecting veterans to
extensive UH wait times in order to get the basic
standard of care that they deserve. It certainly prolonged serious illnesses,

(01:34:18):
even contributing to hasten deaths, and we were able to
help shed more light on UH that issue, which I
think just emphasizes the importance. Even outside of the national
security context. We are often still talking about serious issues

(01:34:41):
and even life and death concerns.

Speaker 20 (01:34:43):
And unfortunately whistleblowers can whistle blowing can lead to serious
repercussions and retaliation, especially in this vidictim and lawless administration.
Mister Spielberger, in the past, what kinds of retaliation have
they faced, and what are we seeing today under the
Trump administration.

Speaker 13 (01:35:01):
So we've certainly heard about a number of different examples
of retaliation. One that I'd like to highlight that mister
Borland referenced previously is retaliation through abuse of the security
clearance process that can have grave implications not just for
a whistleblower but also their ability to seek legal counsel
and defend themselves against retaliation. And when we look at

(01:35:25):
the past several months of this administration, unfortunately, we've seen
a really systematic approach toward dismantling the non partisan civil service.
We've seen the mass firings, we've seen undermining of independent
agency watchdogs, mass firings of Inspectors General, undermining the Office
of Special Counsel, the Merit Systems Protection Board. Again, these

(01:35:48):
entities that are meant to be independent and play a
critical role in investigating whistleblower disclosures and ensuring that their
rights are protected.

Speaker 20 (01:36:00):
Thank you. In nineteen eighty nine, Congress passed the Whistleblower
Protection Act and then broadened it again in twenty twelve
to ensure that federal workers could feel free to come
forward to their elected officials. And it's a good thing
we did, because whistleblowers have played a more important role
than ever since Trump has taken office. It was thanks
to a whistleblower that we learned that doseillisurely put every
single americans personal security information at risk by bypassing safeguards

(01:36:24):
and copying all this data to an unsecure server. I
ask anatamus consent to enter into the record of New
York Times article title quote those put critical social security
data at risk?

Speaker 8 (01:36:33):
Whistleblawer says, good to go. Thanks.

Speaker 20 (01:36:37):
We've had whistleblowers at the National Labor Relations Or reveal
that DOZE minions may have shipped case files outside of
the agency, possibly to help then co President Elon must
continue to exploit his workers, and last week whistleblowers at
the National Institute of Health came forward to say that
RFK Junior's vaccine and for misinformation campaign had pervaded even
the highest levels of the agency. Typically, whistle blowers have

(01:36:57):
an inspector General they can rely on to investigate their
claim and register issues with agency leadership. But President Trump
has fired or demoted over twenty inspectors general. If I
may ask one more question, mister Spielberger, can you explain
how eroding the independence and capabilities of Inspectors General further
in danger these whistleblowers.

Speaker 13 (01:37:15):
Absolutely so again, whistleblowers already face incredibly great challenges in
coming forward under normal circumstances, and when we erode these
entities that are expected and required to enforce whistleblower protections
fairly investigate their disclosures, it calls into question the integrity

(01:37:36):
of their investigations and findings, whether they'll take whistleblowers seriously
when they come forward, and whether we can trust that
they will use their authority to enforce the protections of
whistleblowers who do come forward, Essentially, whether they will continue
in their role as an independent watchdog or basically become

(01:37:57):
a lapdog for a current or future president.

Speaker 20 (01:38:00):
That thank you, and I will note I was like,
no longer liberty, no more liberties, I go back.

Speaker 4 (01:38:05):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:38:06):
I now recognize mister Crane for five minutes.

Speaker 21 (01:38:10):
Thank you, miss chairwoman for holding this hearing. Thank you
to the witnesses for appearing in the effort of transparency here.
I got to admit to the witnesses that you know,
growing up I really never believed in UFOs or any
of this stuff. I always sound thought it was a
little kooky and whatnot. But uh, you know, after hearing

(01:38:31):
you know, your testimony from honorable service members, watching videos
like my colleague mister Burlison just presented, you know, I
gotta admit I've become a believer. Not that I know
where these things come from or you know what they
really are up to. But I'd like to start with
asking the witnesses. Mister Neosatelli, you were in the Air Force, right, yes?

(01:38:56):
Did you believe in UFOs prior to your encounter?

Speaker 5 (01:38:59):
Always been interested?

Speaker 21 (01:39:01):
Okay, Chief Wiggins, you're in the currently in the Navy,
is that correct?

Speaker 7 (01:39:05):
Correct?

Speaker 21 (01:39:06):
Did you believe in UFOs before your encounter?

Speaker 18 (01:39:09):
I did.

Speaker 6 (01:39:10):
I'm from Las Vegas and I've watched towards NAP that
whole life.

Speaker 7 (01:39:13):
Okay, what about you, mister Borland. I have always been
open to where facts go.

Speaker 21 (01:39:20):
So were you guys scared or hesitant to come forward
and tell your story because of fear and believing that
you might be reprimanded or ostracized from society because of
your stories?

Speaker 10 (01:39:37):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (01:39:37):
Absolutely, I probably would not have come forward if I
didn't have documentation to prove some of my story. And
I also wouldn't have come forward without the people that
paved the way for us, you know, the first Congressional hearing, Chief.

Speaker 7 (01:39:52):
What about you?

Speaker 6 (01:39:54):
Once I got the okay from the Navy from top down,
that gave me a level of relief. Prior to that,
I didn't have any thought left or right of that.
But I think the Navy to give me the go
ahead and that gave me the relief that I would
not have any level of reprisal or anything happened to me.

Speaker 7 (01:40:13):
Mister Borland, how about you? Absolutely? I mean, after I
went through everything, it was pretty clear that I caused
a major issue in the executive branch. So I did
what I was supposed to do, and that's why I
haven't spoken publicly publicly. That's why I'm happy to be here.
This is how I wanted this to be done. In
regards to.

Speaker 21 (01:40:33):
Me, mister Borland, why do you think that you faced
reprimand and discipline for your effort to come forward and
be transparent about what you saw?

Speaker 7 (01:40:45):
About what I saw is the reason why I got
into what I know and has been disclosed to Arrow
and the IG. And I think that information. While it
was it was labeled an extremely sensive national security issue.

Speaker 12 (01:41:00):
Thank you, mister Napp.

Speaker 21 (01:41:01):
I've watched many of your videos on Joe Rogan in
other places. One of the big questions I think for
many of us is why do you believe that the
federal government refuses to be transparent about this issue.

Speaker 10 (01:41:16):
I think there's probably multiple reasons.

Speaker 9 (01:41:17):
At the start, when these things first started invading our
skies in large numbers, we were scared. It was right
after World War Two, and we didn't know what they were,
and they didn't want to panic the public, and that
was probably a good call. Over time, I think they
the length sort of became institutionalized.

Speaker 10 (01:41:34):
You know, flights over at Washington, d C.

Speaker 9 (01:41:36):
In nineteen fifty two, they're seen, they're captured on radar.
Jets are chased after these objects, and then we get
an explanation it was a temperature inversion. And those kind
of lies have been told for a long time. What
was told to me by an investigator from Congress, a
guy named Richard Demato, who was sent after this story
by Robert Byrd and Harry Reid. He came out to Nevada,

(01:41:58):
tried to get into area fifty one. Did you get
in there, looked around, talk to people trying to get
to the bottom of it. He believed that this program
reverse engineering, etc. Was inside, had been moved inside these corporations,
and he said, when this comes out, people are going
to go to prison. And he meant people who were
basically misusing legitimate national security funds tens of billions of

(01:42:18):
dollars in order to keep this cover up going. I
also believe there's a legitimate reason for the cover up
in that there is undeniable connection of national security involved
in this technology. If we are racing for it to
master that technology against the Russians and the Chinese, which
is what I have been told by Senator Reid and
many others, then it is a race that's critical to

(01:42:41):
our survival. There could be a form of disclosure. I think, yes,
it's real, it's from somewhere else, without revealing all the
details that would allow someone else to have an advantage
in the race for this technology.

Speaker 7 (01:42:53):
Thank you.

Speaker 21 (01:42:54):
Finally, I'd like to enter into the testimony a letter
I sent to the DoD regarding the case of Major
David Charles Grush, a UAP whistleblower who's been extremely helpful
to this committee. Unfortunately, due to his participation in the
disclosure of UAP, he suffered reprisal like the removal of

(01:43:14):
his clearance, denial of promotion, and loss of medical retirement.
I wrote the DoD on July twenty fourth, twenty twenty five,
on behalf of major Grush, and I'm still waiting for
a reply. I appreciate any help the Committee can offer
to get a response.

Speaker 7 (01:43:29):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:43:29):
I yield back with that objection. We'll be following up
with the DoD after this hearing. Thank you, Representative Crane.
I'd like next like to recognize Representative Gil for five minutes.

Speaker 15 (01:43:41):
Thank you cherwom Nela Luna for holding this hearing, and
I'd like to yield a minute in my time.

Speaker 1 (01:43:46):
To you perfect. My first question is to mister Napp,
how do we know that the files that you obtained
from the former Soviet government are not BS and just
given to you as a disinformation campaign against US government.

Speaker 10 (01:43:58):
That's a good question.

Speaker 9 (01:43:59):
So I shared some of them with the Senate Intelligence
Committee when I first got back, because that was requested
by the Russians who shared some of that information with me. Secondly,
I gave all of that material to the DEA through
BASS the AFS APP program.

Speaker 10 (01:44:13):
Sorry for the acronyms.

Speaker 1 (01:44:14):
Can you name names real quick?

Speaker 9 (01:44:15):
Sorry? At BASS or so?

Speaker 1 (01:44:17):
Did you give them two directly?

Speaker 9 (01:44:19):
I gave them to Robert Bigelow and to Jim Lekatski,
and they hired a whole team to go through them
and retranslate them and analyze it. And they created a
structure of how the UFO programs in the USSR in
Russia were put together.

Speaker 10 (01:44:34):
They said they were real. The other person who said
they were real.

Speaker 1 (01:44:37):
Is David Grush noted, thank you, Representative Gil.

Speaker 15 (01:44:42):
And thank You'd like to yield the remainder of my
time to Eric Burlsson.

Speaker 19 (01:44:49):
Thank you represented Gil. Mister Wiggins, Chief Wiggins. In your view,
what mechanisms such as internal protocols, witness debriefings or cross
agency documentation should be better established in order to ensure
that such a credible sighting like the one that you
have given are preserved and made available to oversight bodies

(01:45:13):
like this.

Speaker 7 (01:45:15):
Thank you sir.

Speaker 6 (01:45:17):
As a active duty Navy member, our mission is to
carry out the ship's mission or the commands mission, and
we on a general basis don't have knowledge of what
to do when we see things like this, we just don't.
We're there to do our mission and do what's told

(01:45:37):
of us, right, So I think what would be important
is giving active duty members a clear way of being
able to report things like this to where it gets
to this point and ensuring that we have a standard

(01:45:58):
level of understanding that there wouldn't be any level of
reprisal or anything happening. Because you know, I've been in
the Navy for almost twenty four years. But what about
the sailors that I've been in for two years that
experience things like this. They're not going to have the
knowledge or they'll probably be a little bit more fearful
to speak up, being at that their career is just starting.

Speaker 18 (01:46:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 19 (01:46:19):
I just I want to commend you. You're the first
witness to come forward that is currently serving and it's
recognized and so I thank you, and your testimony is unbelievable.
Let me ask this question, are you familiar with the
Witness Protection Act that to represented Burchett has filed.

Speaker 6 (01:46:37):
I'm not too familiar, sir.

Speaker 19 (01:46:39):
Anyone on the committee familiar with it. It's fantastic. It's the
language that we need. It's language that will protect with
you know, whistleblowers from from any kind of reprisal. And
yet it's again and again blocked by by you know,
this body in some way. Many times it's being blocked

(01:47:00):
not by elected officials, but by staff behind the scenes.
And the other bill, the UAP Disclosure Act, which was
filed last year Senator Schumer, who I cannot believe that
there's a topic that he and I agree on, but
he and I agree on this topic.

Speaker 18 (01:47:17):
He is sponsored in the Senate.

Speaker 19 (01:47:18):
He'd put it on the National Defense Authorization Act last year. Remarkably,
I can't get it on the It was stripped out
by the House last year, and I can't get it
onto the bill leaving the House this year.

Speaker 18 (01:47:32):
Mister Napp, how.

Speaker 19 (01:47:34):
Far would that would do? That bill go to actually
getting the answers that we need?

Speaker 10 (01:47:40):
Pretty far? I think they're still going to have roadblocks.

Speaker 9 (01:47:43):
You know, the keepers of the secrets, the private companies
that have been doing this job for intelligence agencies for
a long time, are not going to cough it up.
You'd have to force it out of them. And whether
you can get them to admit that they have it
or not, I mean they're supposed to lie about it.
They've been lying about it, you know, I more power
to you. I hope it works. I hope it passes
this time. But it's a it's a daunting challenge to

(01:48:07):
get them to open up after lying about it for
more than seventy five years.

Speaker 10 (01:48:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 19 (01:48:12):
And then, finally, mister Borland, when you engage with Arrow
in twenty twenty three, you noted that their public statements
did not match the reality that you and others had
witnessed in your assessment. What were the key limitations of Arrow?

Speaker 7 (01:48:28):
You know, I would put it to you this way.
The statement Arrow has made is scientific evidence of extraterrestrials.
Scientific evidence requires a scientific control extraterrestrials an entity on
another planet. The only way to scientifically prove extra terrestrial
is we have to go to that planet, acquire technology,
bring it back, and compare it to what we have here.

Speaker 19 (01:48:49):
So you're saying they won't let anything out because or
they won't. They won't come forward unless they confirm that
it Unless, say, go to the planet and confirm where
its origin.

Speaker 7 (01:48:59):
Is, that would be scientific evidence. Yes, and by that statement,
Aro found no scientific evidence of better terrestrials. Is basically
I don't want to call it a si off, but
a misrepresentation because we do have things. But making that
statement is not technically a lie. It's a misrepresentation of
the full truth.

Speaker 18 (01:49:19):
Thank you, Madam Chair.

Speaker 17 (01:49:21):
May I just since we're on that topic real quick,
how do we get to these other planets? How do
we pass the Van Allen radiation belt safely?

Speaker 7 (01:49:32):
Good question for you. I cannot answer that for you.

Speaker 1 (01:49:37):
I would now like to recognize mister Perry for five minutes.

Speaker 22 (01:49:42):
Thanks, Madam Chair. I think I'll start with maybe mister Borland.
So you have a clearance, right, you're in uniform. You
have a clearance. When did you leave at service?

Speaker 12 (01:49:53):
A year?

Speaker 7 (01:49:53):
I left in twenty thirteen, February thirteen.

Speaker 22 (01:49:56):
Who was a president? If you recall.

Speaker 7 (01:49:58):
Twenty thirteen would have been President Obama.

Speaker 22 (01:50:00):
It wasn't President Trump? Right, no, sir, okay, So you
have a clearance, right, you're starting the uniform.

Speaker 11 (01:50:05):
You have a clearance your story.

Speaker 22 (01:50:07):
You know, I think many of us are kind of
picturing the scene you walk out in the flight line
having a smoke, this event occurs. Do you have the perception,
at least I do based on your story, that this
involves the US government whatever you saw involves the US government.

Speaker 7 (01:50:26):
That is one hundred percent in my opinion, then and now.

Speaker 22 (01:50:31):
And was there an after action? Was do you do
a daily debrief of the activities of the day. Was
any of that recorded? Was there a conversation with the command?
Was there any documentation that you know of at the time?

Speaker 7 (01:50:45):
Not to my knowledge. I mean, like I said, I
talked about it in UH on the off floor, and
a couple of people it pulled me aside some I'm
older and listed, and we're like, you probably want to
keep that to yourself.

Speaker 22 (01:50:55):
So did you get the did you get the impression
that they knew what you were talking about, just didn't
want you to harm your career or seem crazy, or
that they didn't really witness Do you know anybody else
that witnessed what you saw?

Speaker 7 (01:51:09):
Again? Not that night? Like I said, the only people
that would have been out there would have been security
forces and then those of US that were doing.

Speaker 22 (01:51:14):
All security forces in uniform or contract probably both. Did
you talk to them? Did anybody talk to them in
an after action?

Speaker 7 (01:51:22):
Not to my knowledge?

Speaker 22 (01:51:23):
Is there any interest in the command to determine and verify.

Speaker 10 (01:51:27):
What you saw?

Speaker 22 (01:51:29):
Not to my knowledge or it's unfortunate. Chief Wiggins, thank
you for your service. Gentlemen, thanks for all of you
for your courage that be here. Your story's a little
bit different. Sounds like it well for both of you guys,
and also mister Nussatelli. If this were sanctioned by the

(01:51:51):
US government, even though you have a clearance, but it's
classified above the clearance level, do you see any reason
why they would allow now you access, being present, viewing it,
hearing it, you know, being around it, Like, what is
this an accident? Like does the US government make these

(01:52:12):
kind of acts? They make accidents mistakes like this way,
Oh we're doing this, we're doing this test of this
new system, and we forgot these guys are standing here.
Does that sound like something that the US government would do.

Speaker 5 (01:52:27):
No, sir. Some of the launches we were doing were
like five billion dollar projects that had taken like ten
years to develop the technology, and these objects were coming
right up to the launch pad. So any kind of mistake,
I mean, we could it could cause a catastrophe, right,
So it's very confusing why these objects would be operating

(01:52:49):
in around our bases or during training exercise.

Speaker 22 (01:52:53):
It lend us would lend you to believe that the
US government had no had nothing to do with whatever
it is you saw, correct, They wouldn't want it there
because it would potentially interrupt the proceedings at the time.
Was there an after action? Was there a discussion by
your command that was there an investigation? It's pretty significant

(01:53:13):
activities that you were involved in. Was there an investigation
that you know of.

Speaker 5 (01:53:17):
We conducted investigations in real time. We document all the evidence,
but as far as anything from higher up, I don't
know if there was an investigation. No information came down
on what we should.

Speaker 22 (01:53:28):
Were you ever interviewed at someone else's request about that incident?

Speaker 11 (01:53:33):
About the incident?

Speaker 5 (01:53:34):
I don't believe. So.

Speaker 22 (01:53:36):
Do you think that's you find that odd? If something happens.
You're around multimillion, maybe billion dollar operations and launches of
national security interests very sensitive. There's an anomaly in the operation.

Speaker 5 (01:53:52):
The only person witnessed that saw UAP at Vanderberg a
timeframe that was interviewed was the one that witnessed the thing.

Speaker 22 (01:54:00):
Land Well, why wouldn't Well, I don't know why I'm
asking you, but it seems to me that we would
want to interview everybody associated, even not associated to find
out if they were associated, Chief Wiggins, how about you
did anybody? Was there an investigation? Was there an after action?
Was there documentation on the incident that you were privy to?

Speaker 7 (01:54:20):
No, sir, not that I know of.

Speaker 6 (01:54:22):
And in my previous experience as an operation specialist, all
operations that I've been a part of have been deliberate.

Speaker 22 (01:54:30):
So yeah, there there and deliberate operations. After the operations,
you conducted an after action review, or that's what the
Army calls it. I don't know what the I imagine
the Navy has something similar to determine your weaknesses your successes.
Did you do that in regard to this incident?

Speaker 6 (01:54:48):
No, sir, the Navy calls it after action reports, and not,
to my knowledge was there an after action report of
this incident or unfortunate Thank you, Chair.

Speaker 1 (01:54:58):
I yield, I now recognize mister Biggs for five minutes.

Speaker 23 (01:55:02):
Thank you, Mauna Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for
being here today. I'll tell you that today's testimony should
alarm every America, no matter their views on UPS. This
isn't simply about UPS. It's about government integrity, responsible use
of taxpayer funds, and Congress's constitutional duty to oversee the
executive branch for evidence of critical information hidden in special

(01:55:23):
access programs off limits to virtually every elected representative and
certainly to the public. Incredible witnesses report retaliation for speaking out.
These are clear attempts to silence those who are exposing
the truth. We must protect the whistleblowers. In the decades
of government disinformation have eviscerated public trust. So this isn't

(01:55:46):
a partisan matter. It's a constitutional matter. And when you
talk about the vas miss Bielberger and all the problems
that they had, the hub of that was Phoenix, and
they went after the whistleblowers there, and that was under
the Obama administration. So it doesn't matter which administration, which party.

(01:56:06):
Both parties have got to come clean, particularly on this.
So if the government thinks you can hide the truth
and punish those who speak out, Congress has to keep
pushing until the facts, whatever they are wherever.

Speaker 7 (01:56:17):
They leave, come to light. I'm going to go to you,
mister Nap.

Speaker 18 (01:56:20):
First.

Speaker 23 (01:56:20):
You've interviewed numerous UAP whistleblowers over the years. The question is,
how do you verify their claims before deciding they're credible
enough to report on.

Speaker 9 (01:56:29):
The combination of factors. First, to check their credentials. Did
they really serve where they said they did? And did
they work where they said they did? Are there any
other witnesses? Is their visual proof, film footage, things of
that sort. You ask the people around them that know them,
that used to work with them, if they're credible people.
That's one way, you know. I think about ARROW, the
organization that this body created to deal with witnesses and whistleblowers.

(01:56:54):
I hope I'm not taking too much of your time here,
but they invited people to come forward, service members who
new sauce things and had experiences, and I can tell
you that the people that I have talked to who
went through that are deeply disappointed. There was a guy
named Bob Jacobs who was a lieutenant attached to Vandenberg
in nineteen sixty four. His unit would record missile tests.

(01:57:15):
They recorded all of them. On one of this particular tests,
a UFO comes out of nowhere. Zapp's what looks like
a laser beam at what would have been a nuclear
dummy a nuclear weapon and disable it and he is
called into the commander's office.

Speaker 10 (01:57:31):
Two guys in suits.

Speaker 9 (01:57:32):
Clipped that film footage out that shows the UFO and
he's ordered to never talk about it.

Speaker 10 (01:57:37):
He comes forward to Arrow.

Speaker 9 (01:57:39):
He heeds the call, thinking he's doing his duty as
an American to tell that story, and they completely dismissed him.

Speaker 10 (01:57:45):
They made up a story that.

Speaker 9 (01:57:47):
They had tracked down the original footage and there was
nothing like that in it. Well, there was no original footage.
It had been taken away the day the footage was recorded.
He's deeply disappointed. People like Bob Sallas, who had worked
at a nuclear ICBM Bass, who saw UFOs flying over
the base and these missile silos were taken down. He
went to Arrow too and was completely disregarded. It almost

(01:58:08):
looks like Arrow operated as a counter intelligence operation to
get people to come in tell their stories, and then
discredit all of them.

Speaker 10 (01:58:15):
I can't imagine that any.

Speaker 9 (01:58:16):
Whistleblower or witness will ever go to Arrow again because
of what happened under the first director, who's now long
gone but still seems to act as the spokesperson for
that organization.

Speaker 23 (01:58:27):
And I would say, I would say, Madam Cher, maybe
at some point we need to really dig deep into Arrow,
and I would encourage you.

Speaker 1 (01:58:34):
Oh, I'd be happy to send maybe a subpoena to
mister Kilpatrick.

Speaker 12 (01:58:41):
Mister.

Speaker 23 (01:58:43):
Mister Nukatelly, Mister Nukatelly, you've testified that official Air Force
records of the Red Square incident are now held by
ARROW and the FBI. Has Congress or you been denied
access to those records, and I'm what grounds would they?

Speaker 11 (01:59:01):
Would we be denied access?

Speaker 10 (01:59:02):
You or US?

Speaker 13 (01:59:03):
Now?

Speaker 5 (01:59:04):
The records are unclassified, so okay them.

Speaker 23 (01:59:09):
In the two thousand and three to two thousand and
five incidance you described where any physical effects, electromagic interference,
radio anomalies, or security system disruptions documented in base logs
or any reports official

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