March 5, 2021 • 38 mins
Naya gets deep into the culture of being an African American woman in rugby beginning with the history of black people and how this has impacted her. They discuss the Black Lives Matter movement and how the events of 2020 have impacted Naya. The also unpack the music, fashion, dances around black culture on the team and address pushback as a black women in rugby. This is another candid conversation between two rugby players on the raw topics that affect young women in professional sport. And finally they answer questions from the Leo’s Den cubs.
Hosts: Naya Tapper & Ilona Maher
For more information, links and resources plus conversations from the world of women’s sport including articles, blogs, videos and podcasts visit wispsports.com. WiSP Sports is the World’s First and Only Podcast Network for Women’s Sport with more than 60 hosts, 1300+ episodes across 50 shows and over 7 million downloads. WiSP Sports is on all major podcast players. Follow WiSP Sports on social media @WiSPsports. Contact us at info@wispsports.com.
Hosts: Naya Tapper & Ilona Maher
For more information, links and resources plus conversations from the world of women’s sport including articles, blogs, videos and podcasts visit wispsports.com. WiSP Sports is the World’s First and Only Podcast Network for Women’s Sport with more than 60 hosts, 1300+ episodes across 50 shows and over 7 million downloads. WiSP Sports is on all major podcast players. Follow WiSP Sports on social media @WiSPsports. Contact us at info@wispsports.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Here we go, and welcome tothe Leo's Din Podcast. Fun Fact about
Me I am a black woman.Hi everyone, I'm low and fun Fact
about Me I'm a white woman.And we're just two Leos who love to
hear themselves talk. And as youknow, we've been starting the show with
our horoscope. So the horoscope fortoday I'm gonna read it says, I
(00:29):
thinks should be going well for youand Love and Romance Department, Leo.
But you can find that today thingsget a bit tenious. While you want
things to be clear and planned out, it could be that your partner lungs
for more freedom and spontaney spontaneity,yeah, may result if either party becomes
(00:52):
too set in their ways. Thetension may arise when neither partner wants to
take the lead. All right,Loo, talk about how much this is
effective in your life? Yeah?This really Yeah, this really pertains to
me and my singleness right now?Um yeah, this just really doesn't.
I can't say this really affects meat all. Very single, not much
(01:14):
love in romance going on, don'thave a partner, but I guess I
long for freedom and spontaneity. Sowhat about you? What about you in
this horoscope. If I think aboutit in a general sense, I can
understand where the hard headedness comes fromin this and how Leos they kind of
have their mindset on things and theytheir planners. So I know, like
(01:38):
there's days where I'm like, Okay, let's be spontaneous. Let's not put
every single thing that you're gonna dotoday in your calendar. Do something random.
That's something that I did in college. So I'm really nice to see
that little reminder. I think we'reprobably both those who do want to take
the lead. Like if there's evera decision to be made, we're like,
we're doing this. Yeah, we'regoing to this restaurant. All right,
(02:00):
this is what's happening. So,I mean it talked about that,
he said, and here somebody hasto take the lead, and that's Leo's
that's Leo's for you. We're herefor you. You can help you with
that, all right. Well,so today we're gonna be talking about being
an African American in the rugby world. So just to disclaim or like this
is gonna be a great conversation.I feel like I'm going to learn so
(02:21):
much during this time. But justso I know that to like what to
refer to it as, Like,what do you prefer to be referred to
as a black woman, African American, a person of color? What do
you prefer me? Personally? Iprefer a black woman, but I know
that's different for everybody. So Ithink just you asking me that question,
(02:42):
because it's very genuine, I appreciatethat, and that opens up the window
for other people who are not ofcolor to be like, hey, maybe
I should you know, ask thewomen or male of color around me that
same question. Yeah, And Ithink what's key there is like you have
to be okay to get things wrongand to learn what your preconceived notions because
(03:05):
you're not going to be right allthe time. And I found from you
like you are so in person whoI can ask any questions to you and
you'll give the honest opinion without judging. So it's always good to know,
like where you what's the right thingto do? And I think that's really
important because people aren't always going tosay the right things, and sometimes it's
not always on that person because sometimesthey don't know any better, they don't
(03:28):
know any different. So it's alsothe priority of the person being asked the
question to also have an open mindand also be open to educating and providing
knowledge to people who may not understandor know that the things that are coming
out there my mouth could be wrongand offensive. So I think that's what
I try to do, is liketry to have an open mind and to
(03:51):
be open to having a conversation evenif it has some tension in it.
Yeah, for sure. So likefor me, my background is from a
very white state. I come fromVermont, mostly white people. Okay,
all of my schools there was veryfew people of color in my schools.
I was I've always been the majority. Always every sports team, an I've
(04:12):
always been a majority. So Ithink that's interesting that I've never known what
it was like to be a minorityin a sport or in anything really in
life. Yeah, have you hadthose experiences? I'm guessing you have,
But what's been what has it beenlike for you? I will say my
experience as a black woman might bea lot different from other black women's experiences
(04:35):
just because my father was in themilitary, so we had the opportunity to
move around a lot and experience differentcultures like settings and people. So I
was born in youth for South Carolina, and there's a lot of black people
there, but I only lived therefor two weeks, so then we ended
up moving to Kaleen, Texas.And when we're moving through these different places
(04:59):
Colleen, Texas, Accused, NewYork, Columbus, Georgia. These are
all military families that are around,and if you think about the military,
it's one of the most diverse areasand careers in the world. So I
was around a lot of different racesand cultures, and even though there were
times where I was the minority,it didn't really feel like that because it
felt like there were so many otherminorities around me. So I didn't really
(05:21):
get the minority feeling until I movedto Charlotte, North Carolina. But even
then I went to a black highschool, so the white people were the
minority, The Asians and the Hispanicswere the minority, and I was the
majority. So having experienced both thosefeeling like the minority today and my sport
(05:45):
and having felt like the majority inthe past and track and field, I
think that's been very beneficial and hada big impact on why I'm so open
to different people and those hard conversationsin terms of racism. Yeah, do
you think that it affected your confidenceor anything like that or how you view
(06:06):
people by growing up more and eatein a more being the majority, Because
I remember the body confidence episode youtalked about, like there's a stereotype or
there's this idea that having the lighterskin is the better thing to have.
(06:26):
Was it like helped you growing upwith women who were confident, beautiful in
their darker black skin one hundred Likebeing around people who loved their skin color
and loved their culture and portrayed thaton a daily basis. That was so
important to me because I didn't getthat up until high school of just being
(06:47):
around so many people that looked likeme and them being one hundred percent themselves
and so into who they were asblack women and men. I just was
elated and just so mind blown aboutall the culture and characteristics and traits that
I wasn't aware of going up becauseI hadn't been surrounded by my people as
(07:11):
much. And I still like getthose feelings every now and then, Like
in San Diego, California, Iam the minority. So I have those
days where I'm like, man,I want to go back to North Carolina,
so I can be around my peoplein terms of skin color, not
in terms of friendships and family,because I have tons of friends and family
that aren't black women. But goinghome and being able to be around those
(07:32):
loud, energetic, expressive people,that's so so important to me and something
that I want my kids to beable to have as well. Which it
is. That's like he It islike a shared culture. You guys have
a shared experience of you know,being stereotyped racism in the US, So
it's like having that with another personreally can connect you. I know that
(07:56):
so and I of course is thebest. But she loves going to melan
An event and she will invite anyonewho wants to go to a Melanan event,
and so it'll be me and fiftyamazing black women and I'm just like,
hey, guys, but like Naadoesn't care. She wants people to
experience her culture and like like whiteblack whatever, you can come on in.
(08:20):
And I have a question for youabout that, because I've had people
approached me when I do things ofthat, such of inviting white women to
black women and male events. I'vehad people ask me, like people be
elated about it. And kind ofhave the same mindset that I have a
you know, kumbaya for everybody,and then I've had people will be like,
(08:41):
why are you bringing this person intoour safe space? Yeah? So
what is your mindset on that?When I first invited you to a Melanie
event? Did you have any worries? Were you skeptical at all? I
mean, to be honest, Ithink I was because I've never grown being
that minority and I know that youknow, it's just just a couple of
(09:03):
your skin, but it is differentand you there are you just just like
look around, You're like, Okay, no one really looks like me here.
Everyone here is like free and beautiful, and I'm like, hi,
guys. So I did. Ido think I was a little hesitant,
But I do think it was agood experience, and there was at time
so I did feel like I wasencroaching on your safe space almost on this
(09:24):
time where you guys could just likecome together and have fun. But so,
I mean sometimes I saw like somelooks it was kind of like what
why are these like two white womenthere? You know, and so because
it is noticeable, it's again beingthat minority in that setting. But I
mean having you there and like youbeing like, no, they're here,
They're going to be here. ButI can totally understand why the women there
(09:46):
would maybe feel like we're encroaching.I totally understand that, and I think
it's important for me and having friendsup different races to expose them to my
culture. And in college, Ihave some amazing white best friends, and
(10:11):
one of my favorite things about themis how appreciated they are of my culture,
not that they're trying to appropriate it, but that they just appreciate it,
you know, and they want toexperience it. They want to experience
the music, they want to experiencethe environment and the food, and I
appreciate that. And that's kind ofmy mindset on it is like I'm I'm
(10:37):
changing these people's minds about black peoplethat was set into their heads from our
history books, that was set intotheir heads possibly from their grandparents or their
parents. I'm putting them in anexperience where they can experience black people for
their own like view and make adecision. Then not being told this is
(10:58):
what you're supposed to believe in,this is how you're supposed to treat these
people, but being around those peoplein deciding you know, do I want
to believe what I've been told ordo I want to make up my own
mindset about how I feel about blackwomen and black men? Yeah? Absolutely?
Um. And going on that,like, do you have stereotypes that
follow you around you think, likenot only in sports but just in life
(11:22):
or have you experienced that where someoneexpected you to be this certain way?
Um? I think the main thingthat I deal with more than other stereotypes
is being like the quote unquote loudblack woman, the angry black woman,
and and some people's minds they seeit as an angry black woman, but
(11:45):
in my mind, it's the womanthat is speaking on what she believes.
Yeah, And I feel like Ideal with that, you know, almost
every day. Yeah, absolutely,I think you I mean, you do
express your opinions, and I thinkfor a lot of us, it's it's
not something that we're used to doing. We're kind of told to like okay,
kind of keep it in, youknow, don't say at all,
(12:07):
yeah, you give it freely.And so I think maybe having that added
color of your skin then puts youin that category of like, oh man,
oh no, she's she's expressing things. Was like, no, it's
just somebody who who has now thisconfidence to share her thoughts, but automatically
they label you as that loud,angry black woman. Yeah. And the
(12:28):
crazy thing is it's not only alabel that is used by white people,
it's used by black people. Interesting. Yeah, I had a conversation with
one of my friends about the situationand I didn't know if I should speak
up or not. She said,well, you know, speak up,
but don't be the angry black woman. And it's like, you know,
(12:48):
then, do I want to speakup or am I going to be looked
at as the angry black woman?Or am I going to be looked at
as the woman that's staying for whatshe believes? And you don't have to
say so in that, you know. Yeah, So it's that risk and
that anxiety of do I keep quietor do I just take the flak and
speak up. I think that's forme too. I mean I have a
(13:09):
very loud personality as well, andthere's time for me where it's just like
you almost want to quiet yourself down. You want to be like, oh,
maybe I shouldn't talk today because youdon't want people to think this about
you, think that she's so ohshe's so abrasive, she's so loud.
So there's times when I'm like questioningmy own personality. It's like, no,
I'm loud, I'm gonna share mythoughts. I'm sorry. I'm not
(13:30):
for everybody. Yeah, probably notfor everyone, but yeah, I hate
that sometimes I do second guess speakingalmost. Yeah, one thing I wanted
to talk about that I think we'vebeen able to have a conversation with individually
and as a team, but onthis podcast, I want to kind of
discuss the past year with not onlyCOVID, but the police killings and the
(13:54):
Black Lives Matter movement, and Ijust want to kind of hear how you
perceived that year and also how youperceived how our team and organization handled it.
Yeah. I mean for me,it's like it's something that you know
happens, but I don't experience firsthand. I don't experience that fear when a
(14:16):
cop goes by you, And Ithink that could be something we could have
another conversation on. Is like ourthoughts on cops, Like I see a
combat, I'm like, okay,a little bit nervous, But you must
have a totally different experience from howyou know you've been raising what happens to
your community. It was shocking tosee, I mean the videos of George
Floyd, of them at Aubrety,who was just running and he was shot.
(14:41):
I think for me it was likefiguring out the best way to show
my support to you all. Somy young sister Adriana is so smart and
so kind of well educated on that, and so I just kind of watched
her. I was like, hey, what can I do? And so
people were posting like black squares andI was like, Okay, I post
a black square on my instagramp.I can do that any day. It's
like, well, then donate tosomewhere else. Okay, fine, I'm
(15:03):
gonna do that. There's protests.I go to the protests. But it
was a chance where I was like, oh, finally seeing a little bit
clearer what you go through and whatI mean, it's just shocking and it's
scary, and I can't imagine howyou really feel, Like what how did
you feel when you saw like thosevideos of George Floyd of what happened and
(15:24):
avery like what happened. M Iwould probably say it's just overwhelming, you
know, like when you see oneit's like you go through the emotions and
then you hope something happens, andif it doesn't, like you can be
sad for that moment, but youhave to move on. But then when
it's like back to back to backand continuously justice is not being done,
(15:50):
you're not only like angry, butyou're scared because you're like, dang,
if it could happen to all theserandom people, it could happen to me.
It happened to my siblings, itcan happen to my parents. So
I just felt kind of hopeless,you know, because I see people out
there trying to change the laws.I see people out there trying to speak
(16:14):
up about it, and sometimes itleads to change, and sometimes it doesn't.
For the most part, it doesn't. So you kind of feel hopeless.
And I don't know if you've everhad a situation where you felt hopeless
before, but it's scary, youknow, and it's you get you're angry,
you're sad, it's so many emotionsput together, and to unless you're
(16:41):
in that moment, you don't knowhow it feels. So like having to
deal with that and deal with whateverstressors I had in my life outside of
that and go to practice, whichis an extremely stressful situation in its own.
Yeah, that's a lot of weighton somebody. So some days I
(17:02):
cried. Some days it was liketrying to face the reality of like this
is our world, you know.Yeah, And I remember so one thing
I did like is we did havemeetings during that time, zoom calls where
we could chat and we could discuss. Yeah, and I remember you saying
that it was kind of like youwere almost looking out on social media for
the teammates to see, like whosupported the cause, who believed that black
(17:26):
lives do matter, because it issomething like you want to. I don't
know if I could really connect withsomebody who just personally felt like black lives
didn't matter, like I One timeI had a man. One man was
like, well, don't all livesmatter? And I was like, oh
god, okay, sir, alllives do matter. But currently people don't
(17:47):
think black lives matter as much.So it's just like that that just people
not understanding that. So you saidyou were like almost you wanted to look
out, oh man, Okay,even though they were just posting a simple
black square. It was good tosee that all of our team was on
the same page about something. Yeah, because I think one of the things
that I had to face was,you know, what do I do if
(18:12):
my organization doesn't support me as ablack woman? What do I do if
my teammates that I have to trainwith and be around every day do not
support me as a black woman?What do I do if my coaches that
have every say so about my futureand if I accomplish my goals or not
don't support black women. Yeah,that could be the end of my dreams,
(18:33):
that could be the end of friendships, and that could be the end
of my rugby career because I hadto make it. I would have to
make a decision. Do I stayin the organization that does not support me?
What am I portraying to others thatsee that this organization does not support
me? And I'm staying? Yeah, that anxiety of Lord, please let
(18:53):
everybody be for this or pretend thatthey're for this so that I don't have
to make a decision. Yeah,I haven't even thought about n That's that's
insane. That's a wild thought thatyou had to to think that you could
have been, you know, friendswith working under people who believe that your
life wasn't as valuable as their Yeah, I mean that I didn't even realize
(19:18):
that. That's an amazing point.UM. But did you do you like
like so in our team, webring up good discussions and we talked even
about like standing during the national anthemat times like what would we all do?
UM? Do you think we didenough discussions? Do you think we
can do more discussions? Do youthink it's more one on one that needs
to happen? UM? I wasvery relieved and happy about how our organization,
(19:42):
how our team, and how allof you guys handled it, and
how you guys treated us, andthe platform that you you all created for
us to be able to have thosehard conversations and to try to give you
guys the dose of what we're experiencing, UM, and kind of give you
(20:03):
guys a chance to support us.And I think we had a lot of
great conversations. Yeah, I thinkwe felt so. I'll speak for myself.
I think I spelt I felt verysupported and UM, I was very
happy about that. That was probablyone of the good things that happened in
(20:26):
the past year with COVID and theBlack Lives Matter movement was UM seeing that
I have the support of my organization, my teammates and my coaches, and
that everything that I had planned interms of my goals and the friendships and
the family unit that we built,I wasn't gonna have to let go.
Yeah. Um, should there alwaysbe conversations about it? Of course?
(20:52):
Um should it be organic? Ibelieve I don't think you should for us
anything. You know, I don'tthink I don't think you got should force
black people to have conversations, andI don't think black people should expect you
to have those conversations. I justthink it should be organic. So you
talked about like if I have aquestion and I just asked Nia, or
(21:12):
I asked one of the other blackteammates. I think that was the important
thing that we took out of thatsituation, is how important it is to
have those hard conversations and how importantquestions are. Because growing up, your
teachers used to tell you you askedtoo many questions, like as if it
was a bad thing. And Ithink from that conversation that the listeners should
(21:37):
take the lesson that asking questions isvery important, Having conversations is very important.
I remember, like a couple ofyears ago, sitting around the lunch
tables. We would have these funconversations too, where it'd be like almost
finding the little differences and like whiteand black culture, like we won't go
(22:03):
into it as much because it's alittle bit we have to go into.
Okay, So there's so like,all right, first off, I use
more of just I'm just like asoap inhands type person when I'm in the
shower. But Naya and some otherof the black girls are our team are
like, what, you don't usea washcloth? And I was like,
(22:25):
no, I've just always used soapinhands. And there's a Dave Chappelle skit
that you send me, you remembersending me that He's like, I had
to use these black people so barsoap and there was like different hairs on
that from back different people. Butit's like fun because we sit around and
we like almost discussed this open spaceof discussing these little different things of how
we grew up that are different betweenus. And it's like, what,
(22:48):
well, that's so cool to learnjust these little things. Yeah, And
that's kind of where that organic conversationcomes from, because I think another one
of the things that we talk abouta lot is our different hairstyles. And
like the hair scarfs and the bonnetsand do rags that we wear. And
it's kind of funny to introduce youguys to that side of our culture because
(23:15):
a lot of times we'll get thequestions of like one day your hair was
short and now it's long, likewhat the hell? And we're like it's
we and so like those conversations andlike what is that on your head?
That's a question. It might comeoff a little and but to be open
to have the conversation and educate andsay, hey, this is a way
(23:36):
that I protect my hair from breakingoff because yeah, this is the texture
of my hair and this is theeffect that certain things can have on it.
So I wear this And I thinkit's been cool. Also, like
you guys have been teaching our coachBrownie too. Yeah, you know about
like the different hairstyles. It's like, no, Brownie, she's wearing a
bonnet right now. It's like cool, he's learning. We're all there.
(24:00):
It's like a safe space to learn. Um. I love that one when
when we like teach him something andhe's just growing from it as well.
Yeah, And I think it's thesame with like um music and dancing and
how a black people have the rhythmand white people don't. But we've you
know, we've danced, we've goneout and dance, we've done the just
(24:22):
dance on the Little Wee and wetalk about that. We laugh about that
because we know it's a stereotype,but we know it's not always true.
There's black girls that can't dance andthere's white girls that can dance their asses
all. So it's like it's funto just have those conversations and talk about
those stereotypes and defy the stereotypes asa black and a white. Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's super key. Um. And then back to Ruggy,
(24:45):
Like, so we brought this podcastsbecause rugby is a very white sport.
Yeah, all over the white man'ssport, the white man's sports.
So did that deter you from wantingto play because you came from track,
which is has like you said earlier, a lot of black people did going
(25:07):
to rugby where it was just alot of white people. Ever kind of
like, I don't know if Iwant to try this. Well, the
first experience I had with rugby,it's funny that they called it the white
man's sport because the first time Iexperienced. It was at my black high
school and it was all black kidsplaying it. But the person who brought
(25:27):
the sport to our school was awhite male math teacher at our school.
So seeing I think, seeing themplaying it, and that being my first
site of rugby, I didn't haveI didn't know it was a quote unquote
white man's sport. You know.I was just like, well, you
know, this sport must have beenhidden, but here it is not knowing
(25:49):
like, it's just not very prevalentin the black culture in that time.
But when I got to you andC, it was definitely a lot of
more white. It was majority whitepeople playing. I was going to a
majority white school, so it madesense. But it never strayed me away
from wanting to play the sport.As I said, I moved around a
(26:11):
lot and was around a lot ofpeople, So I think those experiences for
allowing me to be open to thesport of rugby. Yeah. Yeah,
have you ever felt like, noteven just on rugby boat, but like
they put you into stereotypes on yourteams or any like even racism on your
teams that you've been on. Ican't say that I've ever experienced outward racism,
(26:37):
which I'm really happy about. Idon't want to experience it if I
don't have to, you know.Yeah, But in terms of where I'm
positioned, could it be based onmy physical attributes? Yes? Could it
be based on my skin color?Maybe? I will say it's a big
trend to see a lot of theblack girls get pushed to the wing where
(27:00):
they're supposed to be fast, orpushed to the proper where they're supposed to
be strong. And the funny thingis, I'm in that situation. I
am a prop and a wing,and I didn't think anything of it,
you know, I didn't. Iwas like, Oh, I'm fast,
I should be at the wing.Oh I'm strong. I could be at
(27:21):
the prop. But I never thoughtlike, why not be at the decision
making position? Why not be atthe position that can allow you to be
creative and use your mind. Itdoesn't always have to be physical. And
I think that's what black people arelooked at as, especially in the sports
world, that looked at as thephysical talent, physically talented person, not
(27:45):
the mentally talented. So it's beenreally important for me and an eye opener
for me to change that stereotype becauseyou could look across all sports internationally and
if they got a black person ontheir team, they're probably on the way.
Yeah, or the prop and isit habit? Maybe? Is it
(28:06):
based on race? Maybe we don'tknow. But I've definitely took in an
initiative to get into those more creativeand decision making roles, not only because
I want to show the world thatwe can be placed there, but also
because I think I would be greatthere that circle. Desolitely, I'll tell
(28:30):
you what. Well, that's sucha good point, and I haven't again,
I haven't even thought about that,And through this conversation I thought about
it. Like looking at football,most quarterbacks are white and then they throw
the other ones receivers, running back, and then all the praise is usually
given to the quarterback. Yes,it's it. That's such a good point
you bring up. Yeah, Um, a question I have for you,
(28:57):
what has it? What has theexperience been like for you on a team
that is a little more diverse thanothers coming from from as you said,
UM, it's populated by a lotof white people, not much diversity there.
So when was your first experiences withum, a black woman on your
(29:19):
team, and what was that likefor you? I I think, first
off, I just love that wehave these amazingly strong black women on our
team, because I'll see teams likeJamaica and teams like even Kenya, they
are so excited to see you guys. Yeah, and they're like these they're
(29:41):
you guys, are these superstars becauseyou're breaking barriers for them. As we've
said, white rugby is a whitesport. They don't see people like you
out on rugby fields, and sothey see Naya, they see Chattah and
they're like, yo, this iswhat we can be. And so I
get tear yacht when I see youguys taking picture of what Jamaica, I'm
like the future. They are doingthe thing. So I think for me,
(30:04):
I've always been the type of personwho loves to listen and learn,
and I love to hear about people'sexperiences and learn all about them. So
that's been definitely cool to be ona team with you all, and all
of you have such strong opinions,have such amazing personalities, and I mean,
every day I'm learning, and everyday I know that I can come
(30:26):
to you guys with questions and you'llteach me and it's a safe space.
So I think, I mean,you guys just bring spirit personality teams.
Our team wouldn't be the same withoutyou, and not just with your athleticism,
about your decision making. I don'teven think I realize it, but
(30:47):
because we've just created a team environment. But it's just it's just key to
have. So yeah, thank youfor saying that. Before we go into
the cup. Questions, is itokay if I can a little shout out
to some African Americans and rugby doinggreat things. Give some shot Nike,
give some shout outs. Let himhelp. So there's a rugby team.
(31:11):
I can't exactly remember where they're based, so I'm not gonna guess, but
they're called Roots Rugby. They're anall black team. They create an environment
for black athletes to come and beon their team and play in all positions.
I think that's amazing. I lovethat, and that's creating, um
breaking stereotypes for the future for blackpeople in rugby. There's also Toson.
(31:33):
He does the podcast called Viral Rugby. I've been on there a couple of
times. He's amazing, great forthe sport and great for black people.
Um there's also another guy named Gifts. He has a podcast as well.
He's amazing. He's at every tournamentthat is a rugby tournament. He's great.
He has such a great personality andhe loves spreading rugby and black people
(31:56):
doing amazing things in rugby. Correctme if you know his name. The
South Africans team captain. I totallyhold on, I do do. It's
it's right on a trip on time. I'm looking it up right now.
Give another shout out and there andthen okay, and don't shape me,
guys, I'm not big on likelooking into the rugby. All right.
(32:21):
His name is Kisi Okay, sothis shout out to him because he's definitely
breaking barriers in South Africa, whereI've heard they dealt with a lot of
racism. So he captain that team, so congrats to him. Also shout
out to our ladies African Americans onour team, Chris, George, Chetta,
Nia, Jazz Arie. If Iforgot you, don't be mad at
(32:44):
me. On the men's team,we got Carlin Perry, Kevin, Cavon,
Marcus. It might be a couplemore shout outs to you guys,
Appreciate you for breaking barriers. Ona daily basis and playing the sport that
you love. Um, lo,you're ready to get into these cup question?
Since yes always, here's one foryou. Okay, what do you
(33:06):
wish your white teammates knew? Um? I wish that my white teammates knew
that it's okay to ask questions ifyou don't know something, it's okay to
be wrong. It's okay, that'sokay to be wrong. I think that's
a big fear. Yeah, aslong as you're open to have the conversation.
(33:27):
If you're if you're not okay tobe wrong because you don't want to
have the conversation, then that's anotherstory, which I think for me,
I mean, we're in such acancel culture nowadays. You can always say
the wrong thing is find that personwho you trust, and even if it's
like a one on one question ina one on one conversation in the corner,
it's like, nyah, what doyou think about this? Like,
just have that you know, findsome when you trust and have these conversations.
(33:52):
Yeah, let's see. We havea question on here that says it's
funny that we talked about this earlier, but it says, do you feel
supported and being in decision making positionsand matches scrum half, fly half,
or setting the team up from penalties. I will say one hundred percent Yes,
(34:13):
Have I been given the opportunity?Yes? Should I be given more
opportunities? Yes? Please, Brownie, I hope you hear this. Oh
man, the LEO just continuously comesup. Um, And that's interesting because
I definitely feel supported, and Ithink that's how I've been righted. Maybe
that's even oh my gosh, look, no, I'm learning. I've just
(34:37):
been raised that. Yeah, youcan make these decisions. That's who you
are. You can be in thosepositions. That's that's what you're made for.
And you know you guys, youguys aren't maybe pushed to be that.
Whereas for me, I'm like,yeah, it's just a normal thing.
Gosh, I learned so much fromyou every day. Thank you.
(34:58):
That's what I'm here for. Okay, So we'll do one more question.
This question says, what are thebiggest and most impactful ways you experienced racism
in the rugby culture. The highestextent of racism that I experienced is just
the stairs. Hmm. Interesting Okay, yeah, and me personally, I
(35:22):
just take it as all, theythink I'm really beautiful and have nice hair
and nice smile. But on theother end, it could be I've never
seen a black person, or Idon't see a black person very often,
or I don't see a black womanplaying rugby. So that's probably the extent
of racism that I experienced. HopefullyI don't experience any because the world has
(35:44):
changed so much that everybody just loveseverybody. We all just love everyone.
Now, yeah, I mean Ihave an experienced reason. But I've looked
at so when during the Black LivesMatter movement, they posted about Black Lives
Matter and then these comments below,sometimes you're just like, don't say anything,
sir, just please not And that'swhere I saw the racism. I
(36:07):
was like, oh, they werelike, oh, man, come on,
don't bring politics into rugby. Well, we're gonna bring it in.
We have amazing players, Carl andIles the fastest man in rugby as a
black man, and he's a USArugby player. They need to feel supported
so that they can, as yousaid, continue working for an organization that
supports them and continue being the bestplayers they can be. So that just
(36:28):
grinds my gears. When I sawthat in the comments. Yeah, And
I mean, if you think aboutit, who better to speak on politics
than athletes who are being looked at, washed and inspiring on a daily basis.
Truly. Yeah, Loo, wehave a challenge today. Do you
want to tell the guidance about whatwe have for them? Yeah? So
(36:50):
last week I hope you all didthe challenge and you know, didn't weigh
yourself and gave a compliment. Thisweek I wants you to do is to
have that conversation with somebody. Tofind that friend and talk about them,
ask them some questions, maybe tellthem about this podcast so and so they
can listen to it, and thenyou can have a combination about it.
Because Nia, honestly, you've broughtup so many good points and I'm so
(37:13):
excited for people to listen to thisbecause your experience and how you see the
world is amazing. So have thatconversation one on one in a big group.
Learn if they use a washcloth orif they don't. It's the little
things. I just want to say, thank you Low so much for being
(37:35):
open to have this conversation. Asa white woman and myself as a black
woman, I hope this is agood example for our listeners, and I
hope they take on that challenge.Thank you guys so much for tuning in.
Make sure to check us out onall our platforms, including at least
and underscore with Sports at Nia's tapperat Elonomar also visit with Sports for the
(38:00):
episode show notes and follow with Sportsfor more conversation from the world of women's
sports. And also they so checkout my TikTok. I like shameless plug
there, but go check me outon TikTok okay I put a lot of
effort in. It's so time consuming, so please give me lights and follows.
(38:22):
Give them your TikTok names so theyhaven't Oh, it's just adding Moonamar.
So whether you came for the rugbyand staved for the Shenanigans, we
hope you join us next time inthe leos Den. Bye guys, peace out,
Here we go, and welcome tothe Leo's Din Podcast. Fun Fact about
Me I am a black woman.Hi everyone, I'm low and fun Fact
about Me I'm a white woman.And we're just two Leos who love to
hear themselves talk. And as youknow, we've been starting the show with
our horoscope. So the horoscope fortoday I'm gonna read it says, I
(00:29):
thinks should be going well for youand Love and Romance Department, Leo.
But you can find that today thingsget a bit tenious. While you want
things to be clear and planned out, it could be that your partner lungs
for more freedom and spontaney spontaneity,yeah, may result if either party becomes
(00:52):
too set in their ways. Thetension may arise when neither partner wants to
take the lead. All right,Loo, talk about how much this is
effective in your life? Yeah?This really Yeah, this really pertains to
me and my singleness right now?Um yeah, this just really doesn't.
I can't say this really affects meat all. Very single, not much
(01:14):
love in romance going on, don'thave a partner, but I guess I
long for freedom and spontaneity. Sowhat about you? What about you in
this horoscope. If I think aboutit in a general sense, I can
understand where the hard headedness comes fromin this and how Leos they kind of
have their mindset on things and theytheir planners. So I know, like
(01:38):
there's days where I'm like, Okay, let's be spontaneous. Let's not put
every single thing that you're gonna dotoday in your calendar. Do something random.
That's something that I did in college. So I'm really nice to see
that little reminder. I think we'reprobably both those who do want to take
the lead. Like if there's evera decision to be made, we're like,
we're doing this. Yeah, we'regoing to this restaurant. All right,
(02:00):
this is what's happening. So,I mean it talked about that,
he said, and here somebody hasto take the lead, and that's Leo's
that's Leo's for you. We're herefor you. You can help you with
that, all right. Well,so today we're gonna be talking about being
an African American in the rugby world. So just to disclaim or like this
is gonna be a great conversation.I feel like I'm going to learn so
(02:21):
much during this time. But justso I know that to like what to
refer to it as, Like,what do you prefer to be referred to
as a black woman, African American, a person of color? What do
you prefer me? Personally? Iprefer a black woman, but I know
that's different for everybody. So Ithink just you asking me that question,
(02:42):
because it's very genuine, I appreciatethat, and that opens up the window
for other people who are not ofcolor to be like, hey, maybe
I should you know, ask thewomen or male of color around me that
same question. Yeah, And Ithink what's key there is like you have
to be okay to get things wrongand to learn what your preconceived notions because
(03:05):
you're not going to be right allthe time. And I found from you
like you are so in person whoI can ask any questions to you and
you'll give the honest opinion without judging. So it's always good to know,
like where you what's the right thingto do? And I think that's really
important because people aren't always going tosay the right things, and sometimes it's
not always on that person because sometimesthey don't know any better, they don't
(03:28):
know any different. So it's alsothe priority of the person being asked the
question to also have an open mindand also be open to educating and providing
knowledge to people who may not understandor know that the things that are coming
out there my mouth could be wrongand offensive. So I think that's what
I try to do, is liketry to have an open mind and to
(03:51):
be open to having a conversation evenif it has some tension in it.
Yeah, for sure. So likefor me, my background is from a
very white state. I come fromVermont, mostly white people. Okay,
all of my schools there was veryfew people of color in my schools.
I was I've always been the majority. Always every sports team, an I've
(04:12):
always been a majority. So Ithink that's interesting that I've never known what
it was like to be a minorityin a sport or in anything really in
life. Yeah, have you hadthose experiences? I'm guessing you have,
But what's been what has it beenlike for you? I will say my
experience as a black woman might bea lot different from other black women's experiences
(04:35):
just because my father was in themilitary, so we had the opportunity to
move around a lot and experience differentcultures like settings and people. So I
was born in youth for South Carolina, and there's a lot of black people
there, but I only lived therefor two weeks, so then we ended
up moving to Kaleen, Texas.And when we're moving through these different places
(04:59):
Colleen, Texas, Accused, NewYork, Columbus, Georgia. These are
all military families that are around,and if you think about the military,
it's one of the most diverse areasand careers in the world. So I
was around a lot of different racesand cultures, and even though there were
times where I was the minority,it didn't really feel like that because it
felt like there were so many otherminorities around me. So I didn't really
(05:21):
get the minority feeling until I movedto Charlotte, North Carolina. But even
then I went to a black highschool, so the white people were the
minority, The Asians and the Hispanicswere the minority, and I was the
majority. So having experienced both thosefeeling like the minority today and my sport
(05:45):
and having felt like the majority inthe past and track and field, I
think that's been very beneficial and hada big impact on why I'm so open
to different people and those hard conversationsin terms of racism. Yeah, do
you think that it affected your confidenceor anything like that or how you view
(06:06):
people by growing up more and eatein a more being the majority, Because
I remember the body confidence episode youtalked about, like there's a stereotype or
there's this idea that having the lighterskin is the better thing to have.
(06:26):
Was it like helped you growing upwith women who were confident, beautiful in
their darker black skin one hundred Likebeing around people who loved their skin color
and loved their culture and portrayed thaton a daily basis. That was so
important to me because I didn't getthat up until high school of just being
(06:47):
around so many people that looked likeme and them being one hundred percent themselves
and so into who they were asblack women and men. I just was
elated and just so mind blown aboutall the culture and characteristics and traits that
I wasn't aware of going up becauseI hadn't been surrounded by my people as
(07:11):
much. And I still like getthose feelings every now and then, Like
in San Diego, California, Iam the minority. So I have those
days where I'm like, man,I want to go back to North Carolina,
so I can be around my peoplein terms of skin color, not
in terms of friendships and family,because I have tons of friends and family
that aren't black women. But goinghome and being able to be around those
(07:32):
loud, energetic, expressive people,that's so so important to me and something
that I want my kids to beable to have as well. Which it
is. That's like he It islike a shared culture. You guys have
a shared experience of you know,being stereotyped racism in the US, So
it's like having that with another personreally can connect you. I know that
(07:56):
so and I of course is thebest. But she loves going to melan
An event and she will invite anyonewho wants to go to a Melanan event,
and so it'll be me and fiftyamazing black women and I'm just like,
hey, guys, but like Naadoesn't care. She wants people to
experience her culture and like like whiteblack whatever, you can come on in.
(08:20):
And I have a question for youabout that, because I've had people
approached me when I do things ofthat, such of inviting white women to
black women and male events. I'vehad people ask me, like people be
elated about it. And kind ofhave the same mindset that I have a
you know, kumbaya for everybody,and then I've had people will be like,
(08:41):
why are you bringing this person intoour safe space? Yeah? So
what is your mindset on that?When I first invited you to a Melanie
event? Did you have any worries? Were you skeptical at all? I
mean, to be honest, Ithink I was because I've never grown being
that minority and I know that youknow, it's just just a couple of
(09:03):
your skin, but it is differentand you there are you just just like
look around, You're like, Okay, no one really looks like me here.
Everyone here is like free and beautiful, and I'm like, hi,
guys. So I did. Ido think I was a little hesitant,
But I do think it was agood experience, and there was at time
so I did feel like I wasencroaching on your safe space almost on this
(09:24):
time where you guys could just likecome together and have fun. But so,
I mean sometimes I saw like somelooks it was kind of like what
why are these like two white womenthere? You know, and so because
it is noticeable, it's again beingthat minority in that setting. But I
mean having you there and like youbeing like, no, they're here,
They're going to be here. ButI can totally understand why the women there
(09:46):
would maybe feel like we're encroaching.I totally understand that, and I think
it's important for me and having friendsup different races to expose them to my
culture. And in college, Ihave some amazing white best friends, and
(10:11):
one of my favorite things about themis how appreciated they are of my culture,
not that they're trying to appropriate it, but that they just appreciate it,
you know, and they want toexperience it. They want to experience
the music, they want to experiencethe environment and the food, and I
appreciate that. And that's kind ofmy mindset on it is like I'm I'm
(10:37):
changing these people's minds about black peoplethat was set into their heads from our
history books, that was set intotheir heads possibly from their grandparents or their
parents. I'm putting them in anexperience where they can experience black people for
their own like view and make adecision. Then not being told this is
(10:58):
what you're supposed to believe in,this is how you're supposed to treat these
people, but being around those peoplein deciding you know, do I want
to believe what I've been told ordo I want to make up my own
mindset about how I feel about blackwomen and black men? Yeah? Absolutely?
Um. And going on that,like, do you have stereotypes that
follow you around you think, likenot only in sports but just in life
(11:22):
or have you experienced that where someoneexpected you to be this certain way?
Um? I think the main thingthat I deal with more than other stereotypes
is being like the quote unquote loudblack woman, the angry black woman,
and and some people's minds they seeit as an angry black woman, but
(11:45):
in my mind, it's the womanthat is speaking on what she believes.
Yeah, And I feel like Ideal with that, you know, almost
every day. Yeah, absolutely,I think you I mean, you do
express your opinions, and I thinkfor a lot of us, it's it's
not something that we're used to doing. We're kind of told to like okay,
kind of keep it in, youknow, don't say at all,
(12:07):
yeah, you give it freely.And so I think maybe having that added
color of your skin then puts youin that category of like, oh man,
oh no, she's she's expressing things. Was like, no, it's
just somebody who who has now thisconfidence to share her thoughts, but automatically
they label you as that loud,angry black woman. Yeah. And the
(12:28):
crazy thing is it's not only alabel that is used by white people,
it's used by black people. Interesting. Yeah, I had a conversation with
one of my friends about the situationand I didn't know if I should speak
up or not. She said,well, you know, speak up,
but don't be the angry black woman. And it's like, you know,
(12:48):
then, do I want to speakup or am I going to be looked
at as the angry black woman?Or am I going to be looked at
as the woman that's staying for whatshe believes? And you don't have to
say so in that, you know. Yeah, So it's that risk and
that anxiety of do I keep quietor do I just take the flak and
speak up. I think that's forme too. I mean I have a
(13:09):
very loud personality as well, andthere's time for me where it's just like
you almost want to quiet yourself down. You want to be like, oh,
maybe I shouldn't talk today because youdon't want people to think this about
you, think that she's so ohshe's so abrasive, she's so loud.
So there's times when I'm like questioningmy own personality. It's like, no,
I'm loud, I'm gonna share mythoughts. I'm sorry. I'm not
(13:30):
for everybody. Yeah, probably notfor everyone, but yeah, I hate
that sometimes I do second guess speakingalmost. Yeah, one thing I wanted
to talk about that I think we'vebeen able to have a conversation with individually
and as a team, but onthis podcast, I want to kind of
discuss the past year with not onlyCOVID, but the police killings and the
(13:54):
Black Lives Matter movement, and Ijust want to kind of hear how you
perceived that year and also how youperceived how our team and organization handled it.
Yeah. I mean for me,it's like it's something that you know
happens, but I don't experience firsthand. I don't experience that fear when a
(14:16):
cop goes by you, And Ithink that could be something we could have
another conversation on. Is like ourthoughts on cops, Like I see a
combat, I'm like, okay,a little bit nervous, But you must
have a totally different experience from howyou know you've been raising what happens to
your community. It was shocking tosee, I mean the videos of George
Floyd, of them at Aubrety,who was just running and he was shot.
(14:41):
I think for me it was likefiguring out the best way to show
my support to you all. Somy young sister Adriana is so smart and
so kind of well educated on that, and so I just kind of watched
her. I was like, hey, what can I do? And so
people were posting like black squares andI was like, Okay, I post
a black square on my instagramp.I can do that any day. It's
like, well, then donate tosomewhere else. Okay, fine, I'm
(15:03):
gonna do that. There's protests.I go to the protests. But it
was a chance where I was like, oh, finally seeing a little bit
clearer what you go through and whatI mean, it's just shocking and it's
scary, and I can't imagine howyou really feel, Like what how did
you feel when you saw like thosevideos of George Floyd of what happened and
(15:24):
avery like what happened. M Iwould probably say it's just overwhelming, you
know, like when you see oneit's like you go through the emotions and
then you hope something happens, andif it doesn't, like you can be
sad for that moment, but youhave to move on. But then when
it's like back to back to backand continuously justice is not being done,
(15:50):
you're not only like angry, butyou're scared because you're like, dang,
if it could happen to all theserandom people, it could happen to me.
It happened to my siblings, itcan happen to my parents. So
I just felt kind of hopeless,you know, because I see people out
there trying to change the laws.I see people out there trying to speak
(16:14):
up about it, and sometimes itleads to change, and sometimes it doesn't.
For the most part, it doesn't. So you kind of feel hopeless.
And I don't know if you've everhad a situation where you felt hopeless
before, but it's scary, youknow, and it's you get you're angry,
you're sad, it's so many emotionsput together, and to unless you're
(16:41):
in that moment, you don't knowhow it feels. So like having to
deal with that and deal with whateverstressors I had in my life outside of
that and go to practice, whichis an extremely stressful situation in its own.
Yeah, that's a lot of weighton somebody. So some days I
(17:02):
cried. Some days it was liketrying to face the reality of like this
is our world, you know.Yeah, And I remember so one thing
I did like is we did havemeetings during that time, zoom calls where
we could chat and we could discuss. Yeah, and I remember you saying
that it was kind of like youwere almost looking out on social media for
the teammates to see, like whosupported the cause, who believed that black
(17:26):
lives do matter, because it issomething like you want to. I don't
know if I could really connect withsomebody who just personally felt like black lives
didn't matter, like I One timeI had a man. One man was
like, well, don't all livesmatter? And I was like, oh
god, okay, sir, alllives do matter. But currently people don't
(17:47):
think black lives matter as much.So it's just like that that just people
not understanding that. So you saidyou were like almost you wanted to look
out, oh man, Okay,even though they were just posting a simple
black square. It was good tosee that all of our team was on
the same page about something. Yeah, because I think one of the things
that I had to face was,you know, what do I do if
(18:12):
my organization doesn't support me as ablack woman? What do I do if
my teammates that I have to trainwith and be around every day do not
support me as a black woman?What do I do if my coaches that
have every say so about my futureand if I accomplish my goals or not
don't support black women. Yeah,that could be the end of my dreams,
(18:33):
that could be the end of friendships, and that could be the end
of my rugby career because I hadto make it. I would have to
make a decision. Do I stayin the organization that does not support me?
What am I portraying to others thatsee that this organization does not support
me? And I'm staying? Yeah, that anxiety of Lord, please let
(18:53):
everybody be for this or pretend thatthey're for this so that I don't have
to make a decision. Yeah,I haven't even thought about n That's that's
insane. That's a wild thought thatyou had to to think that you could
have been, you know, friendswith working under people who believe that your
life wasn't as valuable as their Yeah, I mean that I didn't even realize
(19:18):
that. That's an amazing point.UM. But did you do you like
like so in our team, webring up good discussions and we talked even
about like standing during the national anthemat times like what would we all do?
UM? Do you think we didenough discussions? Do you think we
can do more discussions? Do youthink it's more one on one that needs
to happen? UM? I wasvery relieved and happy about how our organization,
(19:42):
how our team, and how allof you guys handled it, and
how you guys treated us, andthe platform that you you all created for
us to be able to have thosehard conversations and to try to give you
guys the dose of what we're experiencing, UM, and kind of give you
(20:03):
guys a chance to support us.And I think we had a lot of
great conversations. Yeah, I thinkwe felt so. I'll speak for myself.
I think I spelt I felt verysupported and UM, I was very
happy about that. That was probablyone of the good things that happened in
(20:26):
the past year with COVID and theBlack Lives Matter movement was UM seeing that
I have the support of my organization, my teammates and my coaches, and
that everything that I had planned interms of my goals and the friendships and
the family unit that we built,I wasn't gonna have to let go.
Yeah. Um, should there alwaysbe conversations about it? Of course?
(20:52):
Um should it be organic? Ibelieve I don't think you should for us
anything. You know, I don'tthink I don't think you got should force
black people to have conversations, andI don't think black people should expect you
to have those conversations. I justthink it should be organic. So you
talked about like if I have aquestion and I just asked Nia, or
(21:12):
I asked one of the other blackteammates. I think that was the important
thing that we took out of thatsituation, is how important it is to
have those hard conversations and how importantquestions are. Because growing up, your
teachers used to tell you you askedtoo many questions, like as if it
was a bad thing. And Ithink from that conversation that the listeners should
(21:37):
take the lesson that asking questions isvery important, Having conversations is very important.
I remember, like a couple ofyears ago, sitting around the lunch
tables. We would have these funconversations too, where it'd be like almost
finding the little differences and like whiteand black culture, like we won't go
(22:03):
into it as much because it's alittle bit we have to go into.
Okay, So there's so like,all right, first off, I use
more of just I'm just like asoap inhands type person when I'm in the
shower. But Naya and some otherof the black girls are our team are
like, what, you don't usea washcloth? And I was like,
(22:25):
no, I've just always used soapinhands. And there's a Dave Chappelle skit
that you send me, you remembersending me that He's like, I had
to use these black people so barsoap and there was like different hairs on
that from back different people. Butit's like fun because we sit around and
we like almost discussed this open spaceof discussing these little different things of how
we grew up that are different betweenus. And it's like, what,
(22:48):
well, that's so cool to learnjust these little things. Yeah, And
that's kind of where that organic conversationcomes from, because I think another one
of the things that we talk abouta lot is our different hairstyles. And
like the hair scarfs and the bonnetsand do rags that we wear. And
it's kind of funny to introduce youguys to that side of our culture because
(23:15):
a lot of times we'll get thequestions of like one day your hair was
short and now it's long, likewhat the hell? And we're like it's
we and so like those conversations andlike what is that on your head?
That's a question. It might comeoff a little and but to be open
to have the conversation and educate andsay, hey, this is a way
(23:36):
that I protect my hair from breakingoff because yeah, this is the texture
of my hair and this is theeffect that certain things can have on it.
So I wear this And I thinkit's been cool. Also, like
you guys have been teaching our coachBrownie too. Yeah, you know about
like the different hairstyles. It's like, no, Brownie, she's wearing a
bonnet right now. It's like cool, he's learning. We're all there.
(24:00):
It's like a safe space to learn. Um. I love that one when
when we like teach him something andhe's just growing from it as well.
Yeah, And I think it's thesame with like um music and dancing and
how a black people have the rhythmand white people don't. But we've you
know, we've danced, we've goneout and dance, we've done the just
(24:22):
dance on the Little Wee and wetalk about that. We laugh about that
because we know it's a stereotype,but we know it's not always true.
There's black girls that can't dance andthere's white girls that can dance their asses
all. So it's like it's funto just have those conversations and talk about
those stereotypes and defy the stereotypes asa black and a white. Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's super key. Um. And then back to Ruggy,
(24:45):
Like, so we brought this podcastsbecause rugby is a very white sport.
Yeah, all over the white man'ssport, the white man's sports.
So did that deter you from wantingto play because you came from track,
which is has like you said earlier, a lot of black people did going
(25:07):
to rugby where it was just alot of white people. Ever kind of
like, I don't know if Iwant to try this. Well, the
first experience I had with rugby,it's funny that they called it the white
man's sport because the first time Iexperienced. It was at my black high
school and it was all black kidsplaying it. But the person who brought
(25:27):
the sport to our school was awhite male math teacher at our school.
So seeing I think, seeing themplaying it, and that being my first
site of rugby, I didn't haveI didn't know it was a quote unquote
white man's sport. You know.I was just like, well, you
know, this sport must have beenhidden, but here it is not knowing
(25:49):
like, it's just not very prevalentin the black culture in that time.
But when I got to you andC, it was definitely a lot of
more white. It was majority whitepeople playing. I was going to a
majority white school, so it madesense. But it never strayed me away
from wanting to play the sport.As I said, I moved around a
(26:11):
lot and was around a lot ofpeople, So I think those experiences for
allowing me to be open to thesport of rugby. Yeah. Yeah,
have you ever felt like, noteven just on rugby boat, but like
they put you into stereotypes on yourteams or any like even racism on your
teams that you've been on. Ican't say that I've ever experienced outward racism,
(26:37):
which I'm really happy about. Idon't want to experience it if I
don't have to, you know.Yeah, But in terms of where I'm
positioned, could it be based onmy physical attributes? Yes? Could it
be based on my skin color?Maybe? I will say it's a big
trend to see a lot of theblack girls get pushed to the wing where
(27:00):
they're supposed to be fast, orpushed to the proper where they're supposed to
be strong. And the funny thingis, I'm in that situation. I
am a prop and a wing,and I didn't think anything of it,
you know, I didn't. Iwas like, Oh, I'm fast,
I should be at the wing.Oh I'm strong. I could be at
(27:21):
the prop. But I never thoughtlike, why not be at the decision
making position? Why not be atthe position that can allow you to be
creative and use your mind. Itdoesn't always have to be physical. And
I think that's what black people arelooked at as, especially in the sports
world, that looked at as thephysical talent, physically talented person, not
(27:45):
the mentally talented. So it's beenreally important for me and an eye opener
for me to change that stereotype becauseyou could look across all sports internationally and
if they got a black person ontheir team, they're probably on the way.
Yeah, or the prop and isit habit? Maybe? Is it
(28:06):
based on race? Maybe we don'tknow. But I've definitely took in an
initiative to get into those more creativeand decision making roles, not only because
I want to show the world thatwe can be placed there, but also
because I think I would be greatthere that circle. Desolitely, I'll tell
(28:30):
you what. Well, that's sucha good point, and I haven't again,
I haven't even thought about that,And through this conversation I thought about
it. Like looking at football,most quarterbacks are white and then they throw
the other ones receivers, running back, and then all the praise is usually
given to the quarterback. Yes,it's it. That's such a good point
you bring up. Yeah, Um, a question I have for you,
(28:57):
what has it? What has theexperience been like for you on a team
that is a little more diverse thanothers coming from from as you said,
UM, it's populated by a lotof white people, not much diversity there.
So when was your first experiences withum, a black woman on your
(29:19):
team, and what was that likefor you? I I think, first
off, I just love that wehave these amazingly strong black women on our
team, because I'll see teams likeJamaica and teams like even Kenya, they
are so excited to see you guys. Yeah, and they're like these they're
(29:41):
you guys, are these superstars becauseyou're breaking barriers for them. As we've
said, white rugby is a whitesport. They don't see people like you
out on rugby fields, and sothey see Naya, they see Chattah and
they're like, yo, this iswhat we can be. And so I
get tear yacht when I see youguys taking picture of what Jamaica, I'm
like the future. They are doingthe thing. So I think for me,
(30:04):
I've always been the type of personwho loves to listen and learn,
and I love to hear about people'sexperiences and learn all about them. So
that's been definitely cool to be ona team with you all, and all
of you have such strong opinions,have such amazing personalities, and I mean,
every day I'm learning, and everyday I know that I can come
(30:26):
to you guys with questions and you'llteach me and it's a safe space.
So I think, I mean,you guys just bring spirit personality teams.
Our team wouldn't be the same withoutyou, and not just with your athleticism,
about your decision making. I don'teven think I realize it, but
(30:47):
because we've just created a team environment. But it's just it's just key to
have. So yeah, thank youfor saying that. Before we go into
the cup. Questions, is itokay if I can a little shout out
to some African Americans and rugby doinggreat things. Give some shot Nike,
give some shout outs. Let himhelp. So there's a rugby team.
(31:11):
I can't exactly remember where they're based, so I'm not gonna guess, but
they're called Roots Rugby. They're anall black team. They create an environment
for black athletes to come and beon their team and play in all positions.
I think that's amazing. I lovethat, and that's creating, um
breaking stereotypes for the future for blackpeople in rugby. There's also Toson.
(31:33):
He does the podcast called Viral Rugby. I've been on there a couple of
times. He's amazing, great forthe sport and great for black people.
Um there's also another guy named Gifts. He has a podcast as well.
He's amazing. He's at every tournamentthat is a rugby tournament. He's great.
He has such a great personality andhe loves spreading rugby and black people
(31:56):
doing amazing things in rugby. Correctme if you know his name. The
South Africans team captain. I totallyhold on, I do do. It's
it's right on a trip on time. I'm looking it up right now.
Give another shout out and there andthen okay, and don't shape me,
guys, I'm not big on likelooking into the rugby. All right.
(32:21):
His name is Kisi Okay, sothis shout out to him because he's definitely
breaking barriers in South Africa, whereI've heard they dealt with a lot of
racism. So he captain that team, so congrats to him. Also shout
out to our ladies African Americans onour team, Chris, George, Chetta,
Nia, Jazz Arie. If Iforgot you, don't be mad at
(32:44):
me. On the men's team,we got Carlin Perry, Kevin, Cavon,
Marcus. It might be a couplemore shout outs to you guys,
Appreciate you for breaking barriers. Ona daily basis and playing the sport that
you love. Um, lo,you're ready to get into these cup question?
Since yes always, here's one foryou. Okay, what do you
(33:06):
wish your white teammates knew? Um? I wish that my white teammates knew
that it's okay to ask questions ifyou don't know something, it's okay to
be wrong. It's okay, that'sokay to be wrong. I think that's
a big fear. Yeah, aslong as you're open to have the conversation.
(33:27):
If you're if you're not okay tobe wrong because you don't want to
have the conversation, then that's anotherstory, which I think for me,
I mean, we're in such acancel culture nowadays. You can always say
the wrong thing is find that personwho you trust, and even if it's
like a one on one question ina one on one conversation in the corner,
it's like, nyah, what doyou think about this? Like,
just have that you know, findsome when you trust and have these conversations.
(33:52):
Yeah, let's see. We havea question on here that says it's
funny that we talked about this earlier, but it says, do you feel
supported and being in decision making positionsand matches scrum half, fly half,
or setting the team up from penalties. I will say one hundred percent Yes,
(34:13):
Have I been given the opportunity?Yes? Should I be given more
opportunities? Yes? Please, Brownie, I hope you hear this. Oh
man, the LEO just continuously comesup. Um, And that's interesting because
I definitely feel supported, and Ithink that's how I've been righted. Maybe
that's even oh my gosh, look, no, I'm learning. I've just
(34:37):
been raised that. Yeah, youcan make these decisions. That's who you
are. You can be in thosepositions. That's that's what you're made for.
And you know you guys, youguys aren't maybe pushed to be that.
Whereas for me, I'm like,yeah, it's just a normal thing.
Gosh, I learned so much fromyou every day. Thank you.
(34:58):
That's what I'm here for. Okay, So we'll do one more question.
This question says, what are thebiggest and most impactful ways you experienced racism
in the rugby culture. The highestextent of racism that I experienced is just
the stairs. Hmm. Interesting Okay, yeah, and me personally, I
(35:22):
just take it as all, theythink I'm really beautiful and have nice hair
and nice smile. But on theother end, it could be I've never
seen a black person, or Idon't see a black person very often,
or I don't see a black womanplaying rugby. So that's probably the extent
of racism that I experienced. HopefullyI don't experience any because the world has
(35:44):
changed so much that everybody just loveseverybody. We all just love everyone.
Now, yeah, I mean Ihave an experienced reason. But I've looked
at so when during the Black LivesMatter movement, they posted about Black Lives
Matter and then these comments below,sometimes you're just like, don't say anything,
sir, just please not And that'swhere I saw the racism. I
(36:07):
was like, oh, they werelike, oh, man, come on,
don't bring politics into rugby. Well, we're gonna bring it in.
We have amazing players, Carl andIles the fastest man in rugby as a
black man, and he's a USArugby player. They need to feel supported
so that they can, as yousaid, continue working for an organization that
supports them and continue being the bestplayers they can be. So that just
(36:28):
grinds my gears. When I sawthat in the comments. Yeah, And
I mean, if you think aboutit, who better to speak on politics
than athletes who are being looked at, washed and inspiring on a daily basis.
Truly. Yeah, Loo, wehave a challenge today. Do you
want to tell the guidance about whatwe have for them? Yeah? So
(36:50):
last week I hope you all didthe challenge and you know, didn't weigh
yourself and gave a compliment. Thisweek I wants you to do is to
have that conversation with somebody. Tofind that friend and talk about them,
ask them some questions, maybe tellthem about this podcast so and so they
can listen to it, and thenyou can have a combination about it.
Because Nia, honestly, you've broughtup so many good points and I'm so
(37:13):
excited for people to listen to thisbecause your experience and how you see the
world is amazing. So have thatconversation one on one in a big group.
Learn if they use a washcloth orif they don't. It's the little
things. I just want to say, thank you Low so much for being
(37:35):
open to have this conversation. Asa white woman and myself as a black
woman, I hope this is agood example for our listeners, and I
hope they take on that challenge.Thank you guys so much for tuning in.
Make sure to check us out onall our platforms, including at least
and underscore with Sports at Nia's tapperat Elonomar also visit with Sports for the
(38:00):
episode show notes and follow with Sportsfor more conversation from the world of women's
sports. And also they so checkout my TikTok. I like shameless plug
there, but go check me outon TikTok okay I put a lot of
effort in. It's so time consuming, so please give me lights and follows.
(38:22):
Give them your TikTok names so theyhaven't Oh, it's just adding Moonamar.
So whether you came for the rugbyand staved for the Shenanigans, we
hope you join us next time inthe leos Den. Bye guys, peace out,
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!