Ep. 7: I’m Not Like my Father, with Leonard Murphy

Leonard Murphy seemed to have it all—prestige, ambition, and success in the banking world. But behind the polished exterior was a man silently unraveling under the weight of addiction, generational trauma, and unresolved pain. In this raw and powerful conversation, Leonard shares how childhood wounds, ego, and ambition fueled his descent—and how losing everything became the gateway to reclaiming his life. Now a sober coach and founder of Empowered Through Sobriety, Leonard helps high-achieving men of color confront the root of their addictions and rediscover purpose.

In this episode:

• Leonard’s childhood and his father’s struggle with addiction
• Impact of generational trauma and mental health
• High-functioning alcoholism
• Illusion of success in corporate culture
• Marriage, fatherhood, and the ripple effects of addiction
• Hitting rock bottom and contemplating suicide
• The turning point: loss, grief, and the decision to change
• Trauma therapy as the key to sustainable recovery
• Redefining success through purpose and service
• Empowering high-achieving men of color in sobriety

Connect with Leonard at https://www.empoweredthroughsobriety.com

Learn more at https://liesmyego.com

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
[MUSIC]

(00:02):
My name is Lilo Armandie and my ego is a liar.
And guess what?
Yours is too.
I'm a combat veteran, mother, and recovering high performer.
[MUSIC]
This is a show about the lies we tell ourselves, how they shape us, how they break us,
and what it takes to finally let them go.
Let's uncover our lies to seek the truth's underneath.

(00:23):
Because before there's clarity, there's chaos.
Let's navigate it together.
So don your oxygen mask and take a deep breath.
Welcome to Lies My Ego Told Me.
[MUSIC]
Hello to all of my fellow liars and truth seekers and
welcome to another episode of Lies My Ego Told Me.
Over the past year, I've had the opportunity to explore and
join new circles of people really opening up my aperture far beyond my military life.

(00:48):
Today's guest is someone I met on that journey and
although we share very few similarities in our lives,
his story impacted me greatly and just rocked me to my core.
Leonard Murphy is a certified professional addiction and
recovery in life coach and founder and executive director of Empower Through Society,
which helps high achieving men of color confront the root of their addiction and reclaim their lives.

(01:09):
He's the proud father of two very accomplished and
beautiful daughters and recently founded the Bridge to Empowerment Project,
a non-profit serving individuals affected by addiction, homelessness, and social inequality.
But long before he was helping others heal,
Leonard lived a pattern of his own destruction,
wearing success like a suit of armor while numbing his pain with alcohol.

(01:29):
His work is deeply personal because he lived it.
His journey is one of ego, identity, and finally compassion for others and for himself.
Leonard, thank you so much for being here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you.
What an intro, what an intro, I love it.
Well, you're very accomplished and you've lived so many lives.

(01:49):
I mean, it really reads like a Hollywood movie from growing up in the projects of Brooklyn,
entering the high-powered banking world in New York in your early 20s,
becoming a husband and a father, and then fast forward two decades later,
you're finding yourself in rehab, in lockdown, during a pandemic.
So let's just get right to the heart of it.
What was the lie that you were telling yourself?

(02:09):
So it was the four of us in the two bedroom apartment in the projects.
And my parents were there, but my father, he had a battle with addiction alcohol.
And he passed away from alcoholism and drug use the day before my 18th birthday.
And I watched his progression in his addiction.

(02:33):
And I always said, I'm not like my father.
And I went through life even after he passed away, saying to myself,
I'm not going to be like him, I'm not going to have the ending to my life be like his was.
And I felt some resentment for him.
For many years after that.
So when you talked to me about your relationship with your dad,

(02:57):
and you alluded to it, that he was a functioning alcoholic,
that he never was violent or abusive.
He was a good provider financially for your family,
but emotionally, he was just completely distant.
How did that shape your early understanding of strength,
of vulnerability, masculinity, responsibility?
I did see my father even with his struggles.

(03:17):
He did get up every day and go to work.
He was the only one working, so my mother was working through my childhood.
So he was providing any finances came from him.
So that part, yes, he was there.
Living in the projects, we weren't the richest,
but we never been hungry.
I always had clothes.
Living in the projects was something we didn't like, my sister and I, especially me.

(03:43):
But we always had, he is the one who provided the finances for the home.
As far as strength, I did even know he provided.
I saw, I was, I looked up to my father from the early age.
He was this cool dude, you know, always dressed sharp.
The life of the party, everybody loved, made the room smile.

(04:04):
He came in, it was funny.
And I think I get my sense of humor from him.
Even though my daughters will tell me I'm not funny, but I...
13 ages, but right.
13 ages, so of course.
But infection is smile like, and I looked up to him.
He was a cool, he's a cool dude.
Like all we all looked up our fathers at a young age,
sons look up to their fathers.
But then I just saw something, I just saw pain.

(04:27):
Even as, he went and my mom was young, I just saw pain in his eyes.
Like, you know, as he went through life.
And, you know, he was, again, he was responsible on one end,
but I could tell he was with her and he was dying inside.
I just didn't, at the time, didn't really know what it was.
But then I started to understand his alcoholism and I saw him.
I watched my father drink every day.

(04:49):
Smoke every day.
Later found out he had, he had, he had those in drugs.
So, I mean, so this man I saw is this,
pillow of strength.
As life went on, I was like, wow, he has so much potential.
Then I used to hear stories about, oh, he could have been,
went to callus, laid basketball, and he didn't.

(05:11):
He just wanted to stay in the neighborhood.
And I was like, wow, my father.
And I started to see these things.
You have a hero at one age.
And then as life goes on, you're like, wow, he's being held.
He's not reaching his full potential.
And that kind of got to me as well.
You know what I mean?
So I was like, it's like fighting out, you know.
Big Bird takes off his covering or whatever.

(05:35):
And you see, it's really not Big Bird is the man that needs the costume.
And that's something like that if that makes any sense.
Yeah.
Seeing that untapped potential in your dad,
did you resent that he didn't do more with it?
And looking back now, do you think that your own ambition
was kind of a way of rebelling against that?

(05:57):
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I just saw so much in him.
And I always the wonder, like, why,
why are we still living in the projects?
Like my father is so smart.
He's so intelligent.
You know, and even I saw him struggling.
He was a smart man, very smart man, intelligent.
He was the one who helped me sat down helping with my math homework,

(06:18):
the hard, hard topics.
He sat down and helped me.
But there was this other side that we weren't progressing.
And my family wasn't moving forward.
Like we lived in the projects.
And so the projects, if anyone knows,
Brooklyn, New York, of all places, it was,
it was a for low income families.
It was basically low income housing.

(06:39):
So it wasn't the cleanest.
It wasn't the safest.
People just didn't really care about where they lived that.
It was, you know, you talk about rodents and roaches, things like that.
I saw I had.
And but my mother made sure we lived in the projects,
but she didn't want us to become a product of the project.

(07:00):
So she was sent us up the block, two blocks up,
to go play with our cousins who lived in a nice neighborhood.
So I would go hang with them, play basketball,
or my friends was dead, then I come back.
It was depressing.
And I'm like, why do we live here?
As I got older, I started to be embarrassed of where we lived.
And I was like, you know what?

(07:21):
I want more.
When I get, when I get a chance to go to college,
I'm gonna get a high paying job.
I'm gonna do this for my family, do that.
Because it was the total opposite of what was given to me,
for my parents, for my father, especially because he was the breadwinner.
Yeah, your dad seemed like he was just trying to
maintain status quo.

(07:42):
And like, maybe that's the best he could do,
but your mom on the other hand, she was super determined,
like telling you from day one, you are going to college, right?
So what did that message of expectation from your mom do for you?
And did that feel like pressure or did it feel like possibility?
More like possibility, because I can't even remember,

(08:02):
my mother always instilled in us from a very early age.
It wasn't even an option for me not to go to college
and higher education.
Like when I graduate of high school, some of my friends was like,
I'm not going to college, I'm taking a year off, I was like, you can do that?
I already knew I was going to school.
And not only college, grad school, and all in and all in as far as I could go.

(08:24):
So my mother didn't instill that in us early.
Education is important.
So I felt no pressure because I didn't have an opportunity to feel pressure.
It was just like, this is what you're doing.
This is what we're doing, period.
And your mom's manifestation comes true for you.
You know, you're accepted to the New York Institute of Technology.
But one day before your 18th birthday, as you talked about,

(08:47):
you know, your father passed away.
Like how did that loss shape your path forward?
Especially at such a pivotal moment in a young man's life.
Yeah, that was a tough year for us, tough time.
So I'll break those in February.
And the mother was in that year when I turned 18, my senior in high school, he passed away from a heart attack suddenly.

(09:11):
And I was just looking at schools, going to colleges, you know, seeing where I was going to go.
And he passed away.
He was only working in the home.
We didn't know what to do.
My mother was even though she was strong, she was like, wow, the person bringing in the money to the
home fast away. But, you know, she was a strong woman. She hustled, we hustled, you know,

(09:35):
went to find out where I was going to go to school at.
You know, we found a scholarship program from NYIT to get into.
I wasn't far from home.
I lived in Brooklyn.
The school was in Central Island, Long Island.
And one of my friends had told me about the program, my best friend actually told me about the
program. So I went on an interview for the scholarship, you know, by God's grace, we got in.
I got in.

(09:56):
And I was on my way to school, on my way to college and everything kind of worked out.
My father had an insurance policy that my mother just found while cleaning up.
And so we were able to stay afloat.
And I was able to get into college.
Like she told me I would, like she knew I would.
And I'm like, she said, like you said, she said it and she made sure it happened.

(10:16):
And, you know, blessed for that, blessed for that.
Yeah.
So that's such a huge responsibility that, you know, you take on 18 years old realizing that you're
like the man of the house now, but you also need to go start your life.
So you like go to NYIT and you find these two new identities of college student.

(10:37):
And then you're kind of like your dad, the life of the party, you become the alter ego of drunk
Len is what you told me your nickname was, which I was like, wow, well done.
You know, your relationship with alcohol really starts kind of at that time.
Like what was alcohol giving you in those days?
And what was that persona of drunk Len?

(11:00):
And drunk Len takes him back, takes you back.
So, so yeah, so I get to college.
And I mean, as a teenager, you try alcohol, I tried alcohol.
I was always getting drugs.
I've heard all these stories.
I watched the commercials.
I've never even dabbled.

(11:20):
And my friends were at teenage, no one was doing drugs.
So the most we would do is drink a beer.
Like we have one of the older guys who hung out in the neighborhood go buy us a 40 ounce of beer.
You know, we're sitting on the corner.
Every 10 of us sharing a 40 ounce of beer.
So, you know, thought we thought we was big and bad and grown and little buzz.

(11:40):
And so I, you know, I dabbled in drinking alcohol.
When I was before I got to college.
But I remember one, or like that right when high school was ending.
I know we, all my friends, we went out to this party.
Now we all kind of had a beer.
And I just drank the whole thing and it was like, just never had a feeling like that.

(12:04):
And I actually fell asleep at the party.
And my friends were laughing at me throwing stuff at me.
I basically had a blackout.
And I was 18 years old.
But I still remember that feeling.
I felt good.
And before I blacked out, I was talking everybody, smiling, laughing.
So, fast forward, I go to school, go to college.
And I grew up shy, introvert, I get to college.

(12:27):
I did go my best friend who went to college together.
But I was still shy, introvert.
Now I'm around, I'm on my own for the first time.
I'm at school, I'm with adults now.
Women all over the place.
And I'm just shy kid from Brooklyn.
And my best friend was a total opposite.

(12:48):
He's an extrovert.
So he's talking everybody.
And I'm like, would I fit in here?
Like, so, one party I went to, I was drinking and had a little pre-game, and we call it.
And I felt open.
It gave me a sense of confidence.
It gave me this confidence.
Bonus that I didn't have before, you know, I was, they made the social, my social life comfortable.

(13:14):
So now I have a drink, now I can talk.
I can go up to women and talk.
Now I can start a conversation.
Like, I wasn't never, never ever did that before.
I get to make people laugh.
And that was the beginning of my battle or alcohol.
Yeah, it's a double-edged sword alcohol, right?
Because it does give you a sense of confidence, which is a false sense of confidence.

(13:40):
But there is so much negativity on the back end of that.
And it's one of those things that even personally, I just, I don't know why we give so much
forgiveness to alcohol and make so many excuses for alcohol in our society.
But even still, you're thriving at school.

(14:01):
You graduate, you enter this really elite management program at JP Morgan Chase at 23 years old.
You're running a branch on your own.
So like, from the outside, it just looks like you are winning.
But behind the scenes, you know, that alcohol addiction just starts rearing its ugly head.
And you know, you're drinking before work.

(14:22):
And you're epitomizing like what a high functioning alcoholic, what high functioning addiction
really looks like. And I think a lot of listeners will recognize the industry culture that you
were living. A lot of us all Wolf of Wall Street, which seems like fiction, but to you, that was just
like Tuesday at lunch, right?
Yeah, that's why there was a point I loved those movies like Wolf of Wall Street,

(14:44):
"Border Room," because that was what I was doing, right?
So, yeah, that was the culture. And I went, I graduated college.
Yeah, and even through college, my drinking got worse. That's why I was pinned to name Drunkland,
because now everybody saw life at a party, but you always drunk, Lenny, you always drunk.
And, you know, my, and I joined the fraternity, so that was just extra fun.

(15:09):
But, but I mean, and to be honest, the fraternity saved me as well. Black fraternity and we had fun,
and we party, but it was a big one achievement and good grades. So that, when I joined the fraternity,
that actually saved me. I remember if Cap Alfa's side, fraternity incorporated. And that kept me

(15:30):
in school. So my grades are good. My grades are good. Even though I was partying hard, but I stayed
down on track, graduated. I always was focused. I knew I went to undergrad for accounting degree,
but I started interested in banking. I actually started working part-time at the bank,
well in college. And my senior year, I'm going on into, I, I, I knew I wanted to do something big.

(15:56):
You could not tell me I was not going to be a CEO of Chase. That's what I, I, I had to,
I played in the world. And she was like, you should apply for the management training program.
I say, yeah, I heard about that. She said, I think you'd be better fit for that. You're experiencing,
your passion, your drive, your education. They were taken Kennans globally for this program.

(16:17):
Like not just in United States, but globally. And thousands of candidates. But I knew I was,
once I researched it and saw it, where it could catapult me if I was successful, I said, oh, this is the path
I'm taking. I knew I was going to get into that program. I saw the making connections with my
district manager. And this, I'm still in college. So, but I'm going up and talking to all these people.

(16:40):
Just because I knew I had my, I in the prize. That's what I was going to do. Got recommendations from
high end executives in my district and when an interview killed it, if I may say so myself,
and I got into the program. So went from this. So now I'm in banking and graduate the program.
And I'm already, I come out the program when young, I'm in executive now at the bank. I just,

(17:04):
at 23 years old, I'm running the sales team in a branch. So that's pressure right there. And then again,
here come now, here comes the drinking and they make me feel comfortable. Your relationship with
ambition is really interesting though, because ambition seems like the thing that really kept you safe,
kept you going allowed you to, you know, finish college to get into these programs. But also kind of

(17:31):
was your undoing because you mentioned that all that pressure was also kind of leading you back to
alcohol. So what did success mean to you in that era? And how did your ambition and how did
you drinking evolve? Well, success back then meant how much money I was making at that time.

(17:52):
That's what's assessment to me. So, this is how, how, how good I did at the job, how quickly I moved up
to a position where I can make the most money. That's all I was chasing back then. I was a young bank
executive, no real responsibilities, but something going to work. And I was in a culture where it was all
about money, fast talking, hustling, selling, sales, it's money. So that was my success. So,

(18:16):
and then especially in banking, and then I wanted to mortgage banking. It's so about, it's commission
based. So you can make a lot of money, but you got a hustle and with that comes stress. Even though I was,
you're making, I was making a lot of money, a good amount of money. So that brings stress and
pressure. So I went to alcohol to help relieve something I stress to make me feel comfortable.

(18:40):
You know, so that was my crush, the alcohol. And you know, I think we've all seen enough movies,
lived enough life to know that at some point it's going to catch up to you. So one was the first time
that it caught up to you. When did that first crack in the facade start happening? Right. So, and yeah,

(19:01):
this, we always, and we talked, we said earlier, function and alcoholic, well,
always functioning alcoholics until we no longer functioning or know how to function, right? So
yeah, I was, everything was going great. So I was at Chase running the sales team. I mean,
doing well, but my drinking with also on the other side when I went home, my, my drinking was

(19:22):
progressing. So I got to the point where I was drinking in the mornings. So one morning, I remember
a drink before I went to work sat down. Of course, those buzz not focusing on work opened up an account
for someone who came in. The red flags is all there, but of course, I wasn't fully aware of what I was
doing. Opened up the account and it was a six figure account. It was frozen in check. So opened up

(19:51):
but account for like $150,000, they went the, the, the, the check actually cleared. The gentleman
took out the money of course right away, come to find out two days later, check was not legit.
So long story short, I was fired from that job, fired from Chase. So that's when I was like, okay,
that was the first time I saw that drinking was affecting my life in a negative way,

(20:18):
not, not in a go in in a negative way. Did you really realize at that time and take accountability for
what you were doing? Were you able to do that then? No, not because there was no accountability. I
mean, I, I knew I made a mistake, but this was, this was early in my addiction. So we go, we all

(20:43):
go through a process, um, an addiction and it was early addiction. So I was at the point where I wasn't,
I didn't think I, I definitely didn't think I had a problem yet. Um, and I was like, damn, I was
depressing down because I lost my job that it worked so hard to get. But I wasn't, I, I didn't think
I had a problem and I was like, oh well, onto the next and, you know, no accountability at all.

(21:09):
You know, I went, I actually was blaming other people for the mistake because we had an order.
I was like, well, why didn't you catch that? You know, when they count, you just also look over the
accounts every day. Why didn't you catch that? I wrote letters to the district manager. Like,
you know, the order this should have caught it. It was unfair. I'm, I got fired. I'm getting an

(21:29):
attorney. Like, again, typical addiction behavior, just blame everyone else trying to get myself out
of it. Not, never saying to myself, you drank before you went to work. Like, I know I did, but that,
I never had that conversation with myself when I was trying to get my job back. They were like,
I like, you just caused the bank back, this is back back then in the 90s. You cost the bank $200,000.

(21:55):
You got to go. Like, it wasn't coming back from that, but I'm blaming everybody else. So. Yeah.
Did you feel like you were in control? Oh, yeah. Of course. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. I felt like I was in
control at that time. Yes. Because I've always, I've always, I've always been in control, upset out
point in my life. Like, and everything I wanted, I got set out plan executed, got what I wanted. So I

(22:20):
wasn't control what it seemed like I was anyway. So, yeah, I thought I was in control. Definitely.
Was that your first real failure in life? Yeah. First, first, yeah, first big failure. Of course, I've
stumbled on the way, but that was my first getting fired from a job. Like, I have my life planned out.

(22:44):
I was going to, I was going to become CEO of the company I was working for.
Then I get fired for a stupid mistake. I was like, okay, wow, they're good. They're, you messed up my,
you messed up my dreams now. But I mean, I was the first big mistake and big,
most big consequence of my life. So, I see, you know, as far as my career, it was, it was, it was, it was

(23:07):
big, it was big. And what about the other aspects of your life? Because you are, you're married now,
right? At this point. Right. So this beautiful young lady decided to marry me of all people. So,
earlier my career at the bank. So, three years out of college, I met her and then later, later on,

(23:29):
we got married. So, but at this point, I'm already going from chase on some of my other banking career,
as the more, the more it's financing. So, yeah, I end up getting married to a young lady that I met
about a couple years out of college. And yeah, we got together. We end up getting married.
Yeah. Because you're, you know, you think that your professional life is spiraling, but

(23:52):
so it's hers, right? As a result of like, you losing your job, you know, clearly at this point,
you're heavily deep into addiction, you know, like you think everything's in control, but she's,
she's like the hanging on, how are you coping as a father, as a husband? How is she coping, you know,

(24:12):
with all of this? Well, they say addiction is not a spectator's sport. Like, the family's going to
end up playing sooner or later, right? And with her, it was tough because when we dated, she know I,
I drank so, but again, we're dating. So, we go out in the date, I drank, I a little, and I'm, you know,

(24:36):
you act, but so crazy in front of your girlfriend, you know what I mean? So, you know, you're showing
your best self. So, I didn't really act out, you know, when we went out to drink, but again, it wasn't
occurring all the time. So, she didn't see it as a problem. So, we end up, you know, we get married,
and now we're living together for the first time. So, now she sees I drink at home. So, she's taken

(25:01):
back, like, well, you drink a wine at dinner, like, why? And she sees it happening early in the
marriage every night. Now she sees me coming in drunk from hanging out after work. So, now she's like
concerned, which is rightfully so. You marry, and now you see in this person that she married,

(25:21):
you're now you see in a whole different side of him, and a whole different side of him is that he
has a drinking problem. Like, so, she's, of course, the other seed before you do, right? So, she saw this early,
and it affects everyone. So, it was affecting her. And I was still at the point, early in our
marriage, where I didn't think I had a problem. I thought I was still in control of everything. I was

(25:42):
still doing great at work. You know, at the new job, I was supporting her. We both were working,
so, but I was supporting the family. And, you know, it was still a point where I thought I was in
control, but again, it affects the family, and it was affecting her, because as I got worse,

(26:04):
our relationship got worse. Yeah, that moment hit me hard that when you talk about it being not
a spectator sport for the family, because not just as a wife and mother, but as somebody who
knows how much addiction can ripple out into family, you know, someone very close to me,
in my life, shaped my experience in a similar way. And I think there's a lot of people that are

(26:29):
listening who know what it's like to kind of live through that pain to, to be on the sideline,
you're not on the sidelines though. Like, you're in it, living with them every day. And it's complicated,
because you love this person so deeply, but you also hate them at the same time for what they're doing,
because truly, there's nothing you can do on the sidelines to help that person. It's up to them.

(26:54):
So, you know, you've changed your career paths. You know, your drinking is getting worse,
even with wife and kids at this point. Like, what was like the next moment for you that,
do you hit rock bottom at this point? So, like I said, I was continuing to drink. Our relationship
was getting worse. And you have to understand. And when you don't know, see, I was at a point where I

(27:21):
didn't even know I had a problem. So, you have, I have my wife. Now we have, we had two daughters.
So, right as soon as we got married, she became, she got pregnant on our honeymoon,
basically. So, because we had our first, we had our first, our first daughter was born before
our first year anniversary. Her marriage wedding anniversary. So, then we had, and our daughter's only

(27:43):
20 months apart. So, we had back to back children. So, a lot of stuff going on. We put an apartment
together. Now we have two kids, like back to back. So, a lot was going on the first few years of our
marriage. So, about year four, it was like really bad. And when the family aspect, they don't,
you don't even, as an addict, you're not, if you're not admitting each other problem, you're not

(28:06):
handling it, addressing it yet. What do you think your family does? No, they don't know how to,
this is new territory for them too. They don't know what to do. So, to protect, to protect
herself, a brain, a body, said, is, I have to leave. You know, it's just a protector. She didn't,
she didn't, she has no idea what it is to support an alcoholic. Yeah.

(28:30):
Why would she? You know, especially in, you know, you talk about men of color, black community,
we don't even admit problems that, you know, it's not okay to admit that I'm alcoholic. I was,
at that point, I was like, there's no way I'm not getting admitted in that. So, as a family member on
the outside looking in, how are they supposed to handle this? You're not even admitting you have a

(28:53):
problem. How, how, thing was like, I'm, I'm, I'm leaving. I have, I have two daughters. I have to protect
them, have to protect myself. You know, fight a flight. I'm out here. I'm leaving. So, she was actually
getting a job for the Department of Commerce at that time. This one, Obama's, President Obama's first,
you know, four years in the White House. So, she always wanted to work for the White House. So,

(29:17):
that was her time to be like, hey, I'm out. I'm moving to DC. I'm taking the children. A couple of
weeks later, she got down there. She sent me the voice papers and she wanted to leave me and that came
as, I knew we were going through things. We were actually about to be separated, but it was still a
shot that I got those papers. And I was like, wow, she wants to divorce me because of my drinking.

(29:38):
Yeah, it's, and it's interesting that like, you know, the measures of success that you described were
very measurable, like how much money you made. Like, the bills are paid, right? Financially, we are
stable. Those are measures of success. And there were kind of measures of success that your,

(29:59):
your dad showed you, right? There was food on the table you were provided for. There was stability
in the house. At any point, did you recognize the similarities and the patterns of behavior?
Oh, yeah, I kind of, I remember, I remember my father always coming in late, especially on the weekends,
you know, weekends, he would come and leave, stumbling in the house. So I started to see myself coming

(30:23):
in the house late, stumbling in the house, stumbling in the house late, you know, st,
weekend of alcohol, just like he used to. And also, even though my mother wasn't working,
there was times where money was low because, you know, you know, opportunity, she wasn't taking advantage of

(30:44):
and I myself started to see my career start. So not that we had the same type of jobs, but I kind of
saw where I wasn't holding my weight. I wasn't closing as many loans as I was before, some my income
started to dip as well. And I always thought on my father not holding his weight because we always
live in the projects. We never moved. And as a point my ex-wife is making more money than me. And I was

(31:06):
like, that was unheard of when we first got married. Like, this funny, like that time I started to kind of
see, okay, my father used to do this, my father went through this. So there's a decline in, you know,
being able to provide for your family, then your wife leaves takes your two kids. So now you're kind
of alone. Like one would think that this would be rock bottom for you, but what happens now?

(31:31):
And again, this is the delusion, the delusion of thinking of the addict. Like I was, I didn't even fight
when she said she was leaving at first because I was like, now I could be home by myself. And I could
drink. Like, I don't have to hear her yelling at me, complaining. I don't have to go. I don't have to
wait to start drinking until after I pick up the children from school. America just come home or

(31:54):
stay home for more can drink. So I was like, wow, big party for me. So even when she,
she told me she's leaving. And again, my addiction is talking to me like, hey, you know, that,
that loud voice that's, that loud, foolish voice was telling me, let her leave. Now we could drink all
the time, you know, when the quiet voice that we never listened to was like, now do you know you have

(32:19):
a problem? Now do you see? Like your wife is leaving you. But no, that loud, foolish voice that I
listened to that voice that said, it's party time. Now we could just drink when we want to and do what we
want. We're not, we don't have to hear her mouth anymore. What did that behavior turn into now that you
were, you know, free of responsibility, free of barriers to that addiction? So my addiction just

(32:42):
got worse. I, you know, drink, drink more. Just kept drinking, you know, yeah, they were going. So
I was drinking when I wanted to. I would go down to now at first, you know, we were in court because,
you know, she filed for the voice. I'm going down to DC all the time. But of course, then again,

(33:04):
home, I'm drinking, you know, when I'm not down there or I'm not visiting the kids, I was drinking. So
yeah, that just turned into the next progression in my addiction. This is our already rent to rehab,
a couple of times went to detox, inpatient, outpatient, whatever. And I'm, I'm thinking I'm starting
to get my life back on track. So with the voice, we're separated. We try to get back to that. It didn't work.

(33:27):
So, you know, trying to get my life back on track. So I'm so both about, few more, almost a year. So
things they're looking okay. We're too new, Jersey. And I'm focused on my sobriety. So then one night,
you know, I'm doing what I work again. I'm one of the branches. So I'm in mortgage banking, but we

(33:50):
covered branches, bank branches. So one of the managers, we just closed on a big project. He
passed me on the back and said, Hey, let's go get a drink. Now I'm almost a year sober now at this time.
Right now, going in, you know, not really focused on my sobriety every day, but so I happen, I'm almost a
year sober. So I'm like, sure, we go to the bar and I take that first sip, sip of the drink, the beer.

(34:17):
And after that, I just remember that feeling and going down and I did not stop from then. Like,
he actually, he left, I remember that night. He left. He dropped me off my apartment. I went back
to the same bar and kept drinking. And that was the time I went on like almost a nine month binge

(34:39):
of drinking all day, every day. And this was, this was, this night in rock bottom, this was kind of
started the pro, the steps to my wake up call because I was drinking all day, every day,
and there was a point where I didn't want to live anymore where my bank account is depleted from
drinking. That's it. I'm done. I was going to kill him. I was going to take my life. That's that sort of

(35:04):
point I was that wasn't happening. Didn't have a good relationship with the kids didn't have a good
relationship with my ex-wife. My mother, my own mother, my mother and sister were like through with me.
It wasn't really told me to my sister. And I was like, when I'm done, when all money's gone,
I'm done. I wasn't even going to work, you know, staying home, drinking all day. I was the first one at the

(35:29):
the liquor store in the morning. And at night, I was the last one before they closed. And I just drank
all the slept of the day, drank, drank, drank, slept, drank, drank, slept. When I'm nine month binge.
And my true wake up call came as I'm doing this, you know, almost the ninth month of this binge,
my aunt goes into the hospital. My aunt was, no, alcoholism, and we talked about this before.

(35:53):
Alcoholism was common in my family, a ran-orampe. Like, you know, I have uncles that pass away from
the disease, my father passed away from the disease. Not my aunt is on a deathbed because of
the battle with alcohol and alcoholism. And this is like, my aunt was like a second mother to me.
And she's there skin yellow, just out of it. And she's dying because her organs are shutting down

(36:21):
because of alcohol, her alcoholism. But I'm still drinking during this time, just trying to numb the
pain from that and numb the pain because I don't want to live anymore. I'm even drinking at the
hospital. I'm sneaking liquor into the hospital and while I'm visiting her, I'm going into the
bathroom to drink. That's how bad it was. But then she died. She passed away. And I don't know what it was

(36:43):
that came down to me. It was that was when I woke up. And I'm going to try to be quick because I don't
want to get emotional. I kissed on a cheek, I had a forehead and I was like, you know, name is
Georgia. I said, on Georgia, I'm never going to drink again. And I didn't even go to a funeral.

(37:04):
And the next morning I was on a plane to my last dinner, yeah.
Life is so precious in that moment. Did you just realize that you truly didn't want to die?
That there was more to live for?
Yeah, I saw her die and I was like, I don't want to die. And I'm, you know, God,

(37:30):
they said, God, we're some mysterious ways. And I think, I don't know, she even though she wasn't,
she wasn't, she didn't have her full capacity. She didn't know what was going on.
I could tell she looked at me one time and she couldn't, she knew I was her in. And she was like,
you do better. Like she wanted me to do better. And she was like, this is not you. This is my fate,

(37:52):
but this doesn't have to be your fate. I could just tell she was, you know, a life was taken, but
I was reborn. That's what I felt. And yeah, just something that's, and I just said to myself,
God, I'm finally open to what you have in store for me. Whatever you put in front of me,

(38:16):
I'm going to listen. I'm going to take, you know, I'm going to just guide me and I will hold your hand.
And I will, I will stand a path you have for me. And I just opened up to like, that's it. And I'm
going to do whatever I have to do. I'm going to rehab. I don't know what's going to happen because I've
been to rehab a few times and nothing worked. But I know this time, I was going to, something's going

(38:36):
to happen. I said, God, please, place your hands on this process that I'm about to go through and
help change me. And I was off to rehab. So tell me about that experience in rehab.
So, you know, I prayed for something to change. So I got there, and this is that, this is a march of 2020.

(38:59):
So cold is hitting, like, yeah, right. There's only going to last two weeks letter, okay? Two weeks,
snacks, right? So, right, when I'm going, it's starting to come. So I get to rehab. And before you go
to rehab, anybody goes to rehab, no, first you have to detox. And because a lot of times you come in,

(39:20):
you're still drunk, you're still high. But I remember this time, and usually when I did go to rehab,
that's why I would do, I would just get drunk before I go in. But this time I didn't drink because I was
praying the whole time. I was like, please open. So I was fully sober when I got there because I
got to place your hands, or I'm open to what have happened. I get a knock on my door, open a door.
It's a boy, white guy, mean-looking tattoos pretty well fit, pretty fit. Comes and say, hey, you

(39:48):
learn it. I say yes. He said my name is Will. I said, okay, he said, you know, I'm really not supposed to
be here talking to you, but I was just reading over your file. You're from Brooklyn,
so am I. I just wanted to sit and talk to you, do you mind? I was like, sure, I don't mind. And
this gentleman took to me, we're both from Brooklyn. Now he was Russian. He's just Russian guy from
Brooklyn, other side of Brooklyn. I'm this black here from, you know, the projects in Brooklyn. And

(40:15):
we're just talking. And it was so funny. We had so much in common, you know, of course, he's like a
lot of therapists. He was my therapist, actually, was a recovering drug addict, you know, and I was
recovering alcoholic, but yeah, yes, so we just started talking and I'm talking about my life. And
I never opened up to anyone like that, especially in rehab. Like I said, I've been to rehab numerous times.

(40:39):
This is the first time I'm actually speaking to someone from rehab and just, I mean, almost,
almost in tears, just tell them everything that's went on. It was going on in my life and just what
just happened. And he, that's when he first said to me, I think you have a lot of trauma, don't you? And
I was like, no, but it's trauma. I'm not crazy, you know, I said, he's like, no, he said, just so

(41:02):
happened, I'm also the trauma therapist for this rehab. He said, I think you should come just sit
in one in the sessions. He says, not mandatory. It's a small group, but it sounds like you have a lot of
trauma in you, like you built it and been like in you that you need to get out. I was like, yeah, whatever,
I mean, but no, I'm good. You know, I'm just going to do my time here and see what happens. He was

(41:26):
like, okay, no, don't pressure. Just let me know. So he leaves and we spoke for like, literally,
three hours, no, we sat and talked for three hours. And at the time, I was like, wow, that was different,
but in the so not understanding how powerful that conversation was and what I was going to change
my life. I'm so I'm like, okay, so I get into a regular, I'm finished with detox for three days. I

(41:48):
get into a regular population, everyone in the rehab. So I start accident around, hey, you heard about
this trauma group that they have? Oh, no, don't do that. People come out of their crying. They
be they break things in there. Don't do that. So everybody's telling me, stay away from that.
They're must have quacks. They're crazy. Don't do that. I was like, okay, so I'm just, I'm still thinking
I'm cool. I'm like, I'm not doing to do that. So so well, he has regular groups. That's just me because

(42:14):
he's my therapist. So we have a one on one. He's a, hey, did you think about the trauma therapy? He's
like, I think well between you and I, everybody told me, I should stay away from that. Like it's crazy.
And he saw his life and he's like, listen, come in, say for 10 minutes. If you don't like it, get up
and leave. But trust me. I was like, all right, whatever. So I left his office thinking I'm not

(42:36):
going to do it. But then something hit me is like, you asked God to guide you. You asked God to show
you a way to change your life to get sober. So I was like, you know what? Why am I telling him no?
There's a reason I had a three-hour conversation with this guy when he wasn't supposed to come talk to me.
Why do he do that? You know, he actually tried to talk about trauma. He sees something in you

(42:59):
that no one else even told you. Like you go to rehab, you get in, you do your time, you leave.
No one even follows up with a phone call. So some reason this is the time you're rehabbing a guy
had a three-hour conversation with you. Maybe it means something. So I go into the trauma, I go in the
group and turn up, they dim the lights and they just start talking to other people in the rehab,

(43:22):
start talking. And like 15 minutes in, I'm boiling crying because I can relate to the trauma.
And I was like, you know, we have addiction, but there's a reason why. No one wakes up and it's like,
you know what? I want to kill myself. I want to drink myself to death. My father didn't say that.
My aunt didn't say that. All the people who lost their lives to addiction. They didn't say that.

(43:46):
There's usually a reason behind it. And society puts this stigma on like you're loser, you're bum,
you're lazy. The most intelligent heartwarming, caring people I know I met through recovery.
So it's not the case, but it's the point where we have to get to the reason why, why we're doing this.

(44:08):
And I finally go through trauma therapy and doing that is where this is, I asked God to open up,
show me away. He said, now I'm gonna show you why you drink. And that's how the trauma,
my trauma therapy changed my life. And you told me once you said, I thought I had a drinking problem,
but really I had a trauma problem. I wasn't just battling alcohol. Can you talk about the

(44:33):
difference between those two and how the work that you did for yourself in trauma therapy,
what it revealed that sobriety alone couldn't. Right. So until you, you would always say you, you, you,
you take care of the symptoms on symptoms, but not the real problem. So when we cover, we could,

(44:56):
there was time you could get sober, you know, we, anybody could get sober. You could just take
away the drink like when you have your sober because you're not drinking, there's nothing's
or fun to you. But you know, you don't, you don't sustain sobriety until you understand why you
have the addiction in the first place. I truly believe that. That's my, my, my thoughts. So I recommend that,

(45:22):
you know, if you have an addiction, you have to understand the first question, the first question
besides being ready to change, you have to understand why you have this addiction. Again, like I say,
we don't know, wake up and say, just gonna be my life. I'm a drink till I lose everything. I'm gonna take
drugs to I lose everything. I'm gonna pop pills. So I lose everything. No, there's a reason behind it. So

(45:44):
I finally found out and believe me, 99% and I could dare to say 100% of people with addiction, it's
something happened in your life, a traumatic episode was there that caused you to do it. And you're
taking these drugs alcohol to just mass to, to problem or to deal with it. You know, so I, this trauma I had,

(46:09):
you know, from going back to my childhood, you know, my father and I understood my father. Everything,
when I started talking, it was about how I grew up and my father who was an alcoholic. And my father,
who I presented because I knew deep down inside, his drinking is what stopped us, stopped him from
reaching his full potential. His drinking is what stopped us from moving out of the projects

(46:31):
because that's what alcoholics do. They, they, they stay stagnant. They don't progress. They don't
move in life. They stay with the act or they get worse or they come, you know, life gets worse for them.
So I presented that. I presented the times he didn't take me to basketball games or practice because
he was drunk, you know. I presented him for not taking a job that he was offered in New Jersey.

(46:56):
Though we could have finally got out of the projects and moved somewhere else because he didn't want
to do that because again, like the time of my, I celebrated with my wife left because I knew I could
stay, could continue my drinking. He knew if he moved to Jersey, a new job. He had no responsibilities.
He couldn't just sit around and drink when he wanted to anymore. So he wanted to stay in the projects,

(47:17):
low, pay low rent so he could stay and I could, he can continue his drinking. Taking on no
responsibility, growth, you get that, that, that would take, take up his drinking time and his drinking
money, right? So, so bright as in teach you, like you could, like I said, you could get sober, but you
have to understand why you have the addiction. That is the only way to sustain a sobriety. You know, if you

(47:44):
don't know why, how you, how you stopping it. Yeah. I'm one of your own fatherhood,
teach you while you were going through recovery in like that own perspective because it seems like
the whole relationship with fatherhood is really powerful in your life. Right, so a couple of things,

(48:09):
one, my daughter's, besides my relationship with God, my, the most important, my second value is
my relationship with my daughters. We talk about how you achieve this, that's what I work with.
You cannot be a, if you're a shitty father, you cannot be a good leader, period. You know, um, so if

(48:30):
you can't lead your children because the first people, the first people you should be leading is
your children at home. If you can't lead your children at your home, how are you going to go out and
lead other men and women? You know, I learned that as well. Like if I want to be successful, if I want
to achieve, I have to, I have to take care of home first. My day was they take care of home first.

(48:52):
So my daughter's relationship is important to me. So if I want to, my, my wisdom that I gain,
I always pray that I pass it on to them. Any lessons I learned, I want to pass on to them.
And when I die, when I leave this earth, all I want to know is how my daughter say he was a good father
and he left lessons that will make me successful in life. That's my legacy of what everybody said,

(49:17):
they wanted to, but like you see, they want to leave this and that, no, that's what I want to, I want
to leave knowing my daughter say he was a great dad. He's a great father. And he taught me so much.
A left life lessons for me to follow to make a impact on my generation to be a world changer and to be
a thought leader. That's what I want. So I take, I take my father, we talked about it, I love my daughters.

(49:43):
First of all, I have daughters. So they have me wrapped around their finger anyway. So I'm in a
no-one situation. I'm a girl. No boys. I just have two girls and they're teenagers. So,
well, no, I take that very seriously, you know, because with children, it's not what you, it's not
what you teach them, it's what they catch is what they watch you doing. So that's why I was so devastating

(50:04):
to me when I was in there when I was in full addiction and I wasn't there for them. That's why I had to
make sure, as I, when I got my life back together, like besides my, build up my relationship back with
the Lord, that was what I had to do. Get, get right with them. And thank them God I am. I have a great
relationship with them today. So really interesting to see how your definitions of success have

(50:28):
gone from something, you know, incredibly definitive and measurable to the immeasurable, right?
To something that is so focused on feeling and, you know, something intangible. And I, I really,
as I go through my own journey in life, that's kind of where I've gotten to is that, you know,

(50:50):
redefining what success truly means. And it isn't accolades, it isn't, you know, being super rich.
It really is about, you know, what you leave behind in the hearts and minds of others.
Going through the process of rehab, because you were in and out of rehab for years and years.
What was the difference this time from achieving sobriety and now really knowing

(51:17):
that you were going to achieve life changing sobriety and a new, you know, a new perspective and a
new way to live? Like how did you know this time when it was time to go?
That's a great question. So I always said, even when I was going through rehabs and in out of rehabs,

(51:38):
I always said, when I become sober, I want to live a great life. I don't want to just live and
fear of relapse. You know, I watched, because I saw, especially in early sobriety or early trying
recovery, my process. I saw so many people, they were sober, but they were just, they weren't happy.
They were just living a life where I'm scared to order a certain pasta sauce at the restaurant,

(52:03):
because they may have alcohol in it or I don't, I'm sober 15 years, but I still don't work that
in that block, because it's a liquor store. I'm sober 25 years, I live in my mother in the basement.
I was like, that's, I'm coming from banking world, I was successful. I was like, okay, I lost everything,
look at me wrong. I was rock bottom, I lost all that. But I was like, I still want to live

(52:25):
a successful life and thrive and sobriety. But I just, I was running to too many people that
they just didn't have any guidance, because there's so many things out there, so many, you know,
therapists, counselors, rehabs that I hope you get sober. But then the reason why so many of us

(52:45):
relapses that we don't know what's next, like what's next? Just stay sober? No, because if you're just
trying to stay sober and you don't have a purpose in life, you're going to go back to drinking once it
gets tough. So I was like, okay, I finally found the reason why I was drinking a double my trauma.

(53:07):
Now let's go back to what I want to do. I'm going to, I have to find a purpose. Like, what am I going to do?
What's the next step? I'm not going to live. I'm not going to, and I went from rehab, I went to
have to go live with my mother, because you know, I had lost everything. But I was like, while I was
there, and again, I just got this, I mean, God is great, because my mother, like she gives me that

(53:29):
energy, you know, so I'm living with her, but I'm also getting her energy. So I'm like, okay,
I'm a set up my life. Now I'm not going to just be scared of sobriety. I'm going to go out there,
I'm a set goals, I'm a restom, I'm going to get my life back, you know, I'm a, you know, enjoy life
as a sober person. I'm not going to be, I'm not going to let this disease just keep me in the

(53:50):
house and high. I'm going to get out there, I'm going to take it on, and I'm going to stay sober.
So, you know, I just thought it's finding out what I was going to do. So I went back to work,
I went back in my morning, and I started back, I got back on track, started doing, was doing well.
I started having these conversations with myself, was like, I'm doing well, my money is coming back in,

(54:12):
but I something out there better for me, it's something different. I want to do something different.
God gave me this gift, what am I going to do? So you found your purpose, right? You know, you shifted
out of banking and then became an entrepreneur, but really became, you know, a coach and
found a purpose like success now is redefined not as money, but as purpose. So what led you to

(54:39):
start your company, empower through sobriety? So I've always had a knack for coaching,
always, even banking, I was always, you know, fatter team, I was always managing, I lost a lot of
helping serving people. Even people asked me for help, even if they weren't on my team, I was just
help. I just love coaching and walking people through things. So I always loved that. And I

(55:02):
I did or thought about being a coach years before I got sober, but just didn't work out.
So then I'm like, you know, I started hearing stories, and of course I'm getting
really tight with the sober community where I live at, you know, I'm doing, I'm running meetings online,
you know, people are asking me to come talk at different meetings. So I'm like,

(55:26):
going out and doing speaking, helping people, sponsoring people, and different, you know, recovery groups.
They say you coach through you once more. I just kept hearing these stories. First of all,
I'll just keep it a hundred. I'm a black man who actually I openly talk about my recovery.

(55:50):
Like my message is definitely my message. So we don't see that. I never saw that. A black man
talk about, this is my, this is my mess. Now I recover it. Now I'm doing this. I just never heard that
story. So I started going to this room sometimes other, of course, I attract other black men.
They come to me and they was going through the same thing I was going through. And I remember the first

(56:13):
time I heard a young man, probably about 10 years young, going to me. He was basically going through
the same exact thing. His wife left him, had a great job. He just lost the job. He had two,
yeah, two kids, one boy, a boy and a girl. So yeah, I had two girls. He had a boy.
I just, I still remember to this day that I fell in my heart. It just hurts so bad. And I was like,

(56:38):
I said, look at me. You don't have to, your life's not over. I mean, he was about to cry.
Like he thought his life is over. Yeah. That feeling I had, I was like, I got to help other men like me.
You know, and my message relates to those beyond just black men, a men of color.
And even women, I said, even coach women. But I was like that. I was like, I have to help people

(57:00):
who think their life is over. You know, because the society would tell you, you're, you're alcohol
or they'll label you, you're alcohol or you're alcohol or forever. Even our community, our community
will try to label you. But, you know, I knew I wanted to help people who have faced
the same thing I face that your life is not over. You don't have to just just be sober. You could thrive

(57:22):
and recover. You could live a good life. You could set goals and your life could even be better
now that you have a purpose for living. Because yeah, whatever your purpose was before, it wasn't working.
And I left, left bank, left banking. And I just started in power through sobriety coaching. And
as, and this is the first time my life that I could really say, well, I found my purpose. It took

(57:45):
some time, but I'm living on purpose. And now I have a reason to wake up and you're right. Success
looks different now. Because I love to serve. And I'm doing this for all the men like, all the men
who never, like I said earlier, people die from this disease. So my father never received this. So
this is the honor. I'm too. Yeah. So you can look down and say, well, you're doing good work. To

(58:10):
honor my aunt, who I know was telling me, you need, you have to change. This isn't true. So this is
to help all those people who they don't have to go down that road. And their life is not, those
have to be over. Yeah. And what's unique about working with high performers, particularly,
because that's your focus, you've got, you know, executives, you've got for a professional

(58:30):
athletes. Like what is so unique about high performing individuals with addiction?
The funny thing is high high achievers, they always, they're high achievers, right? So they always
look good on the outside. We always, no one can, no one knows you have a problem. Same thing with me.
I had a white, a beautiful wife, beautiful children. I own, we own thought, when we lived, I had,

(58:55):
we had two luxury cars. And this is how high it seems looking at outside, right? Nice school,
nice suits, executive, you know, executive, a C-suite position, beautiful home, cars, money,
great vacations, kids in private school. So it's funny when you look like that, not only are you not
honest with yourself, but other people will tell you there's nothing wrong with you as well. So no one's

(59:18):
telling, no one's telling you, you're not even telling yourself and no one on outside is telling you
because I remember one time my mother even said, well, I think I have opened up to like, hey,
mom, I think I have a drinking problem. She said, no, you don't. You might be with two kids in a
beautiful home and cars. What are you talking about? You have a great career. And I'm like, you're right.
And I kept moving on my life. So even when we try to tell people we were not all together,

(59:43):
other people tell us like, but look, look at your life. Like you're okay. So it's,
what's unique about dealing with them is that they're struggling in silence. So you have to let them
know that it's okay. And again, we're so much in control of our lives that we don't want it's hard
to admit that something else is taken over. But so unique trying to get that even because even at

(01:00:08):
the lows, they're high achievers, they're the boys, they're the families dependent on them. How can I
say, how can I bow down to a addiction? Like, how can I say I have an addiction? No, everybody
depends on me. But this is something that this is the first thing you have to do is admit that you
have the problem and say that you're and then are you ready to change it? It's hard, but addressing

(01:00:35):
and identifying those lies is so important. So with that, what is your truth now?
My truth is, I was like my father. And it's not so okay. That's okay. I'm okay with it. My father, I
got said, I do this work to not only to serve and to make a difference and to help others, but I do

(01:00:59):
this to honor him. And my truth is now I know how hard it was for them. How tough it was. It's not
easy to deal with an addiction. And he didn't have the resources I had for whatever reason that
wasn't put in front of him. He didn't have the thought to go out and change. Whether that's society,

(01:01:20):
whether that's because he didn't want to or he wouldn't admit to it, whatever that was, that's not
for me to understand. But, you know, I know, I know I know I understand where he went through.
And what's something that you'd forgive him for? And, you know, if he were alive today,
what would you want to say to him?
I mean, it's, and I had told you earlier, I don't, I remember even when I first went through my

(01:01:54):
trauma therapy, I was like just beating up my dad because now I thought I was like, oh, it was the
trauma with him. So, and I think I was all grown, especially in my recovery. I just look back at the
good things he did now because that serves me better than thinking of what trauma he put me through.
So, forgive him. I mean, I don't know if he really did anything wrong. He just did what he could.

(01:02:22):
You know, I saw, I don't, he was my dad. I mean, I don't have to forgive him for anything.
I won't, but I know I'm not angry at him anymore, put it like that.
And what I would say to him is that, do what I love you and I understand. And again,

(01:02:43):
don't want to get emotional here, but I mean, if he was alive today, we'd probably be in sober together.
He would, I would help him get help or I would like, I would like to see that, but I will, I will
hope you both for it. I'll go to the same time, but, you know, I will hope, I will hope that he
will be on the path to recovery. And I just, I love you. I love you. And I get it. I get it now. I

(01:03:06):
then, but I get it. Yeah. And what about forgiving yourself in that version of Leonard, who,
you know, who thought he did white knuckle his way through it all? What would you say to him?
Now that I do forget myself. And that's the thing. And I said, I'm smiling, but it's important.
That's you have to, when you get sober, you have to forgive yourself for the guilt will only bring you

(01:03:30):
back to your addiction. And I remember that was a big thing too. Like you think you owe people something
or the people you heard, no, you should actually forget this for them from them. And it's up to them
to the side of they want to forgive you. So if anybody that's listening, that's getting sober,
forgive yourself. Forgive yourself for all the things you've done. You know, God has forgiven you as well.
But important to forgive yourself. And I've, I've, my growth, me growing in my recovery, I, I don't look

(01:03:56):
back at the things I've done in the past. I say in the present, I look forward to future.
Well, I am so grateful for you for being really brave and incredibly vulnerable in this interview.
You are really just this pillar of strength and a beacon of hope for so many people. And I'm in
all the work that you're doing for others and the work that you've done for yourself is just

(01:04:17):
incredible. And you just really epitomize the thesis of this podcast, which is to don your own oxygen
mask first. You know, we cannot help others unless we take care of ourselves. And truly we're,
we're in this together and we're not alone. So thank you so much for being here, Leonard.
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.
It's, it's been a really moving conversation. So for more information about Leonard and his work,

(01:04:41):
please check out our resources page at liesmaego.com or check out the links to empowered through society
in our show notes. And thank you everybody for listening. Thank you.
[On video]