S3E1 Ernie Pack

This is the season 3 premiere!! We are joined by Mr. Ernie Pack from Packman Paranormal!! Listen as we chat about the Hauntings of Fort Duffield, Waverly Hills and more!! #rkbparanormal #k2paranormalresearch #lifebeyondsixfeet #haunted #ghosts #packmanparanormal #waverlyhills #fortduffield

Episode Transcript

(00:27):
Welcome everyone to Life Beyond six Feet. I'm Damnian from r KB Paranormal and
this is the season three premiere.And this is pretty exciting because I have
a new co host joining me forthis season and hopefully for more seasons to
come. Ladies and gentlemen, utfucked up. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome
Kelly Safer from K two Paranormal Researchas my co host. Hello. That's

(00:53):
that's a heck of a way tostart out season three. Uh and and
Kelly, you know that I don'tanything else, so all that's gonna be
right there in the intro. So, ladies and gentlemen, to start season
three, damn thing I wasn't swearingright right. So to welcome everybody to
season three, we have from pacMan Paranormal, mister Ernie pack Ernie,

(01:15):
Welcome to Life Beyond six Feet.Man. Hello, thank you, Jamie.
Good to be here. Man.All right, I appreciate you coming
on. I've been wanting to getyou on for a while. I just
hadn't had a chance to really reachout to you yet. But here we
are. And the main purpose ofreally having you on the show is you
want to help get the word outby about a new location that you and
your wife have kind of overseeing.Let's talk about Fort Duffield to kind of

(01:38):
start things out. Okay, Yeah, we just signed a contract with the
city of West Point, Kentucky tostart hosting investigations at Fort Duffield. It's
a Civil War fort built in eighteensixty one right here in town at the
confluence of the Ohio and the SaltRivers. It was a really critical point

(02:01):
for a transportation of both men andmaterials as the North was moving south during
the Civil War, and so theybuilt this earth and fort up there,
and it's it's very well preserved.It's probably the best preserved earth and fort
in the country from the Civil Warera. Yeah, it's it's I mean,

(02:25):
as far there's not a lot ofbuildings up. They've got a couple
of replica buildings that they've put inplace, just to give you an idea
what it was like. Just basically, dirt walls is all the fort really
is. There's a cemetery up there. The fort itself was never challenged by
the enemy. It was deemed almostimpenetrable because it sets up on top of

(02:49):
the hill and they could see itcoming from miles away, you know.
But but there was a lot ofsickness and a lot of death up there
from accidents. They were built tryingto build a bridge across Salt River to
help get supplies across. A lotof guys drowned during that process, and
then illness spread through the camp andthere were we're still not sure the exact

(03:13):
numbers. We know about forty eightforty nine deaths that occurred up there,
and it's it's a place that's gotactivity. I mean, we we have
already got some really good evidence outof there trying to getting out of there.
We've got a photograph of a soldierwalking on the hill there that is

(03:37):
as clear of a photograph as you'llfind from Gettysburg or any any other Civil
War site. I mean it isso Yeah, it's posted we called group
Hauntings of and you can find thatthose photos there. That's awesome, and
that was taken. You know,we were just showing some folks around.

(03:58):
Tim Coomer, I don't know ifyou guys. No, Tito, I've
heard of him, Yeah, himand some of his friends from river that
River Bend, Paranormal, Indiana.We're up there last weekend and We were
showing them around and they were justsnapping pictures of the fort, just you
know, just random pictures. Theyweren't investigating, right, like I said,

(04:19):
were just showing them around. Andthen they got home and looked and
it's like, whoa, who's thisguy? And they sent it to us
and we were like, holy crap, that's a good picture. Wow,
that's awesome. Yeah, very cool. So we've got a Facebook group it's
Huntings of Fort Duffield. You cango to that Facebook group and you can

(04:39):
find that picture and any any newsabout the fort. They're awesome. Now,
Now, how did y'all kind ofcome about finding out about this place
that like somebody that kind of overseesthe area that they reach out to you
or you just guys there visiting themone day, And how did you come
about this place? Well? Igrew up in Valley Station, which is
just about ten miles up the roadright there by Waverly Hills. Most folks

(05:01):
know me from Waverly Hills. Wasthe one of the investigators there for a
long long time and helped with thefight to save Waverly Hills when they had
to takeover attempts a couple of yearsago, and so I've always known about
the fort. We just recently boughtthis house here in West Point, which

(05:25):
is also haunted, was built inone. Yeah, and so we started
really digging into some of the historyof West Point in the surrounding area,
and you know, we we wantedto bring try to bring this town back
to life. It's kind of fallingon hard times over some mismanagement in the

(05:47):
past, and so anything that'll helpbring money in we were open to try
to help out with that. Wefound out that they had a guy that
was offering paranormal investigations that Ford,but they were basically just you know,
twenty dollars a person to come upthere and you investigate with him, right.
It wasn't a private overnight anything likethat. And you know, with

(06:10):
our experience posting investigations at Waiver andguest hosting for public investigations all over the
country, we knew that they coulddo better than that. So I went
to the mayor and the city counciland the folks who run Fort Duffield.
It's a nonprofit called Friends at FortDuffield. I went to them and made

(06:32):
an offer to bring some more moneyin, and they were eager to jump
on it. So we had ourfirst booked investigation coming up this Saturday night.
So nice, nice, very nice. Yeah, congratulations, thank you,
thank you. It's it's definitely excitingand the paranormal is a real hot

(06:55):
commodity right now, so that's definitelya good way to help raise some money.
Dial a line for you know,the town, but for the you
know, the ford as well tohelp kind of keep it preserved and stuff
like that. So yeah, now, how many times have you guys actually
investigated there. We haven't done afull investigation. We've gone up there a
few times with friends of ours fromwithin the paranormal community. Gone. We

(07:18):
go up there two or three timesa week in the evening and just spend
a little bit of time up therelooking around and kind of hanging out.
Uh. We did go up therea couple of weeks ago with Greg Bopkin
and sharsa boy. They were infrom Minnesota and they stayed with us,
and we went up there and spentabout I don't know, three or four

(07:41):
hours up there and had some crazyactivity that we weren't expecting. We actually
are all pretty well convinced that wehad a big foot come up the hill
there. Oh wow, wow,yeah, wow. We were not expecting
that. You know, we're youknow, they're whistling Dixie right trying to

(08:03):
try and get some kind of reactionthat way, and this big guy comes
step. It was there bringing thefull moon here a couple of weeks ago,
and this big girl comes walking rightout into the clearing there, and
we're like, what are we seeingright now? Wow? So it was
pretty awesome. And that right there, we'll grab. They attended us,
that'll grab they attention us some morepeople too. Just just hearing about that,

(08:26):
I'm like, hey, I wantto go check that out too,
so so you might have a doublewhammy there. Yeah, you never know.
I mean, you know, Ifirmly believe that the paranormal and encryptids
things like that go hand hand inhand. By definition, they do absolutely
and uh, you know, there'sa lot of folks that are big believers

(08:48):
in the paranormal, but not necessarilynot necessarily believers in big Foot or whatever.
I'm like, well, come comewith us. Sometimes right might feel
differently, but we're really looking forwardto seeing what folks get when they go
up there, because it's it's kindof an unknown commodity. Really, right,

(09:09):
there are a lot of stuff intown. You talk to the locals,
you'll have some people that are willingto tell you, tell you their
encounters or their experiences up there withthe spirits or whatever. But there's also
a big segment of this community that'slike, you know, we don't talk
about that. We don't So it'shard to get stories out of the locals.

(09:31):
But every now, I mean,you'll have someone that'll tell you,
oh, yeah, that place ishaunt it. I can tell you some
things. Right, that's awesome.Now, now, if somebody's wanting to
book an investigation, how would theygo about doing that? Like, what
what would the cost be for that? It is four hundred dollars a night
that runs from seven pm until sevenam. Nice. That's for up to

(09:52):
ten people, So basically forty dollarsa person if you can get nine buddies
to join you, right, ifyou have more than ten, then it's
forty dollars for each additional person.Um And I do you have a maximum
that you're going to put on thatlimit or I mean you know you got
Well, there's only so much parkingup there. We haven't gotten to the

(10:16):
point where we think we had toput a maximum on it at this point.
Really, I mean there's plenty ofroom, you know. It's it's
a pretty large area, and there'sbasically two separate locations. You've got the
cemetery on one side of the hilland then the fort's over on the other
side of the hill. So there'sa lot of room to spread out.
And you could say, you couldyou could split groups up or something.

(10:37):
Yeah, you could. You couldget twenty five, thirty forty people up
there easily. Wow, I meanyou know, I mean depending on how
if we were having an event,I'd be comfortable with having say forty people
up there for like a public event. Right. It's it's just it's something

(10:58):
we're still gonna have to work out. We're gonna have to see out actually
works. Like I said, wehaven't had our first private up there yet,
so let's see what happens. Soare there are there any facilities available
like restrooms or break roads or everythinglike that. It's a very primitive place.
It's an outdoor location. There areuh some basically outhouses up there.

(11:20):
There's not running water, there's notelectricity, but we will be taking in
a generator up there for people tohave power if they want nice, right,
you could camp there, you could, you know, as long as
you the only place that you're allowedto build the fires in the fire pits
that are already there, just likean open fire out in the field.

(11:41):
But you could camp there if youwant it. And I think it's I
think it's going to be a placethat people are gonna like for that.
I don't know if you guys haveever been to, uh like haunted Lake
Shawnee abandoned amusement park in West Virginia, not yet, not never in there.
No, it's basically a big field. There's there's there's a ferris wheel

(12:05):
and a swing for the old amusementpark. The rest of it is just
a big field. And part ofthe joy of going to Lake Shawnee is
just camping out there and hanging outand you know, because it's it's a
whole different kind of ghost hunting,right saying oh, we're going to the
morgue now, or we're going togo down to the body shoot or whatever.

(12:28):
You know, you're just sitting therewatching a field basically and having the
interaction, you know, get thesame kind of activities and those kinds of
things. But it's just like abig camp out. You sit around the
fire and you tell ghost stories orwhatever and you hang out, you know,
roast marshmallows or whatever makes them speright, right. Yeah, outdoors
are always more difficult. They aredifficult places to investigate, but they're luck

(12:52):
fun I think, I mean,I they are kinds of investigations better myself.
Right. Yeah. Now, ifif somebody wants to investigate but they
don't actually want to say camp out, there is there any like hotels close
by? I say, if theywant to get a hotel across nearby,
Yeah, you're not You're not farfrom like Elizabethtown, Kentucky, Radcliffe,
Kentucky Fort Knox. You know,the gold Ball is just five miles down

(13:16):
the road. A lot of hotelsaround that area. Okay, okay,
Now, how how does somebody goabout booking an investigation where they go to
the Facebook page? As of rightnow, that's the only way to do
it is to message me directly throughthe You can do it through the Facebook
group on support Duffield. We're tryingto get it set up through event right

(13:37):
where you can just go to anevent right link and click on it and
boom, you know, book itthat way. But what we found out
is that, you know, we'vegot like three hundred and fifty available dates
over the next calendar year that we'regonna be opening up. You can't just
click on a calendar and say available, available, available, available. You've
got to enter each specific date individuallyand give specifics for each night, you

(14:03):
know, like what what you're offering. You can't just copy and paste copy.
Where where are those data entry peoplefor us? Really? Right?
Yeah? I need I need tohire a tick for that, but I'm
broke, so I can't do.It's those grandchildren. You know, this
is how I type anyway, soyou know it's not it happens very fast

(14:28):
for me anyway. Right, Ohgoodness. Well, it's definitely a place
that's already piqued my interest, andI'm sure it's picked Kelly's as well.
And uh oh yeah, I'm makingnoise. I'm making notes. It's a
it's a mixture between nice and notesand notes it's nice noise, okay,
whatever, they're nice notes. Right, it may may have to be a

(14:54):
place Kelly in mine and your team'skind of tag team and hit up on
a right nice it can happen,Make it happen. Oh yeah, away,
right, Yeah. We do alot of joints together. And it's
because he's small, I'm small,and there we go. That's the way
to do it if you're a smallteam and you're trying to say, get
two or three teams together. Ohyeah, and it's so much fun.

(15:16):
Yes, and you get to networkwith new people sometimes exactly. Yes,
and that's my favorite part. Andeverybody's investigation style is different, so you
know, you're always learning learning,so yeah, learn the method for the
first time. Yeah, I heard, but had never actually done it until

(15:39):
he collaborating with other teams and they'relike, oh, we're doing the Esta
smithod. I'm like, I've heardof that. Show me different things,
you know. The newest one Ijust learned, but the Hauntings on Main
Street was the human Pendulum. Ohyeah, yeah, that was that was
and that showed you that. Yeah. Yeah, Todd and Lean, yeah

(16:03):
yeah, they're like brothers and sisters, right, yeah, Yeah, it's
just amazing. Haven't haven't tried thatone. You're gonna have to show us
that next time, Killy, We'rewe'll do it. We'll do it.
Yeah, we'll do it. Makesure that you know what you're doing when
you do it, because it's it'slike playing with a wedge board. Know
how to open it and how toclose it. Oh, if you go

(16:25):
sideways fast. Right now, Ido want to take a little bit of
a detour because you mentioned Waverley Hillsand that's my absolute favorite place. I've
been there three times and it holdslike a real personal meeting to you.
It Uh, it holds a realpersonal meeting to me. My best friend
who my team's named after, heactually told me about this place like back

(16:47):
in like two thousand, like nineor something, and it was a place
me and him always talked about goingto one day. And you know,
unfortunately he was killed in two thousandand eleven, and that automatically went to
the top of my bucket list,even before I had my own normal team.
And uh, when I first wentthere in twenty seventeen, like I
you know, I say locations canaffect you, Like I got emotional as

(17:08):
soon as I walked through the doors. But it wasn't because of the location.
It was because I'd accomplished something thatme and him it set out to
do. And you know, Iwent like three times in thirteen months,
and it's just so active and justso amazing, and even just being there
on a on a on a publicwith forty or fifty sixty people, it's
so big you can be spread outand still experienced all this stuff. Like,

(17:30):
I love it so much. Ihave a tattooed on my chest so
I've seen it. So, um, you see you've seen this one the
m the room number. Yeah,so how did you? And not going
to show your mine? Oh gosh, so it's morning. It's on my
chest. So so for those whomay not know, how did you like

(17:55):
a like initially get involved at WaverleyHills. Well, like I said earlier,
I grew up in the neighborhood basicallyin the shadows of the building.
I mean the bike's right away fromit anyway. And back when I was
a kid, we always called itthe Castle on the hill because that's what
it looked like to us as kids. The buildings shut down in nineteen eighty

(18:18):
or well, the last patients leftthere like January first of eighty one somewhere
around there for the last staff didand it was just sitting abandoned up there
on the hill. When I wasa teenager, and it became a place
that teenagers would go sneak in.Before I knew anything about it being haunted
or it heard anything about it beinghaunted. It was just a big cool

(18:38):
place to go explore, right becauseback then, I mean, it still
had beds in it, It stillhad all the I mean you could go
to the X ray room and pullx rays out of the file cabinets and
you know every It was like theyjust took all the people out and left
everything else. Wow. So Ispent a lot of time up there just

(18:59):
exploring and hang out as a kidand had some experiences then as a kid
that you know, I know,we're paranormal experiences. There's no other way
to explain what happened. And thenwhen Tina and Charlie Mattingly bought the place
in two thousand and one and startedcleaning it up, I went up there
once to help volunteer with the cleanup, and I was there for a couple

(19:23):
of hours and decided I was goingto just start walking around and taking a
look around the building. And thisguy finds me up on the third floor
as the only one around that area, and he's like, what are you
doing. I said, I wasjust looking around. He said, well,
that's not what we're here for.He said, when we start doing
tours here, you can come andlook around. He said, if you're
not gonna work, he can leave, okay then, and so I left,

(19:48):
and he come to find out thatwas Charlie Mattingly. You know,
I didn't know who it was atthe time. It's just mean to me,
right, So I left. Butonce they started doing tours, I
would go up there and I wouldpay for a tour and pay for an
investigation whatever. And I would alwaysask Teena if she ever needed any help,

(20:08):
you know, I'd love to comeand help. And she never needed
any help. Then one year Iasked her that question and she said,
well, we need some volunteers forthe Haunted House. If you want to
help with the Haunted House, Iwas like, sure, I'm in anything,
get my foot in the door,you know. So I was a
zombie cop that year, zombie caninecop. I had this dog, this

(20:30):
mechanical jumped out of it. Andso after the Haunted House was over,
I just I never went away,you know. Eventually I worked my way
into tour guide and hosting the overnightsand just I did a little bit of
everything up there over the years,and the place. I fell in love

(20:51):
with the place and fell in lovewith the spirits there, and it ut
in my blood and just kept comingback time after time after time. And
I would quit for a while basedon you know, job obligations with my
real job or whatever. I couldn'twork, so I'd leave and come back,

(21:14):
leave and come back, and justkept doing that. And I guess
I'm still in that cycle right now. Right now, I'm not there,
but maybe I'll be back someday soon, who knows. Yeah, right now,
now, with being there so manytimes over the years, what's like
some of the probably wildest things you'veexperienced there, whether it was on a

(21:36):
tour or just about wandering by yourself. Um, well, paranormal the wildest
thing that I've ever experienced there.And I always I've always said this.
I had a group that had askeptic in the bunch, and when I
would get my walk throughs, Iwould usually end it with flashlight communication,

(22:00):
right, okay. And you knowa lot of people say, oh that's
been debunked. Well, yes,there is a heat that will cause those
lights to come on and go offrandomly, But when they come on and
go off on command, when they'resitting there not doing anything until you ask
them to turn the light on andit comes on and you say thank you,

(22:21):
can you turn it off? Andit goes off. Yeah, I
don't think that's a heat cycle.Okay. Now, anyway I would end
the tours with I would say,you know, I've got some folks here
that would like to communicate with youif you could let them know you're interested
in talking to him, could youturn the light on please? And the
light came on, and the skepticthat's with them, he's like, oh,
come on, yeahs I've seen thison YouTube. Dude, that's not

(22:44):
even that's not even real, youknow. Okay, thanks, that's fine.
I said, well, could youturn the light off please? And
the light goes off like thank you? And I said, well, guys,
that's all I've got for you.The building is yours. If you
need me, come and get me. I'll be down in the laundry room.
Enjoy your night. You should havebeen in the body shoot Poppy in

(23:06):
the body shore. It's boring downthere, really, it really. So
I went down there and I'm sittingthere having a peanut butter and jelly sandwich,
just chilling, and I just said, well, I better go check
on them. So, because everycouple of hours I like to make rounds
just to make sure everybody's still wherethey're supposed to be and not wandering off
on the ground somewhere or whatever.So I walk up through the building and

(23:29):
I find them all gathered around onthe second floor in this one little area,
and one of the girls in thegroup she sees me, and she
comes running down the hall to meand she's like, hey, hey,
hey, we were hearing voices downthere, and I thought I saw somebody
go into that room. So wewent down there and I put my flashlight
down like you did, to seeif I could get them to turn it
on. And they haven't done anything, but I know there's something going on

(23:52):
down there, and I said,well, you want to want me to
go down there and talk to them, I mean, they kind of know
me here. She's like, sure, can you do that? So I
did, and I said, youknow, my friends here think that there's
someone in that room. If there'ssomeone in there, can you turn that
light on out in the hallway forme. The light comes on. There
you go. Skeptic is like,oh, here we go with this freaking

(24:15):
light again. I'm like, dude, that is her light. You guys
have been standing here for ten minutesand nothing's happened. As soon as I
ask, it comes on. Isay much, could you turn the light
off? It goes off. He'slike, okay, yeah, but you're
not gonna convince me with this freakinglight. Dude. Okay, I'm telling
you that's that's not convincing to me. Okay, You're gonna have to do

(24:36):
better. And I'm like, andthis is how he talk. He's a
new Jersey game. That's my bestnew Jersey accent. Anyway, So I
said, I said, my friendhere is not impressed with you turning the
light on. Is there something elseyou could do to let it be known
that you're it's you and not me. It's communicating right now. The light

(24:56):
comes back on. He goes well, then the light rose off the floor
about that high. Hmm. Okay, yeah, I'm done. Then it
fell back to the floor, andinside I had never seen anything like that,
you know, So inside I'm like, oh, but with mister Skeptic,
that's already under my skin, rightover my shoulder. I was like,

(25:18):
get you some of that and gotto build it the mic. I'm
done. I love it. That'sgood stuff. That's good stuff. That's
that's that was. That's the wildestthing I've ever saying. Stuff. Yeah,
it is that that place. It'sjust so crazy, Kelly. I

(25:40):
can't wait for you to get there. Yeah. I was all booked and
ready to go. I did allmy research. I had, like,
I had like five pages of researchand things I wanted to check and then
it got canceled. What was thatfor we got canceled? It was the
one that was with the Fearless Ones. Yeah, that one does yeah yeah,

(26:03):
yeah, yeah, that of theguy that was running the thing up
there at the time. I gotbombed. I get it, I get
it. Well you got your moneyback though, right, well yeah I
did. And it was just itwas it was so it was. It's
the like, the number one thingthat's been on my bucket list forever is
to do Waverley because it was thefirst place I ever wanted to go investigating.

(26:25):
After they did the Halloween special withthe ghost Hunters and that ball rolled
down the hallway, I'm like,I gotta go. I gotta go,
I gotta go. Yeah, Andso finally it got to be the point
where I could actually do it,and it's like I'm still waiting and oh
Ernie cancels it. Yeah, Iknow, yeah that was men. It's

(26:48):
okay, it's okay, it's totallycool. I got principles, and I
will, I will. I was. I was looking forward to getting out
of town. That's the whole thing. I was looking forward to getting out
town and go hunt some ghosts.Well, come to Ford Duffield. Yeah
that's yeah, I really. It'salso in that it's near. It's close
by me, just as close asit was when we went up to uh

(27:12):
the Masonic Lodge. Yeah yeah,yeah, yeah, Morris Lodge, I
think it is, Yeah, MorrisonLodge. Yeah that was that was only
what that was only about what athree hour drift from us, Yeah,
something like that. The road fromus. It's always faster when you're going
home. Yeah yeah. Now,now before I kind of touched on something

(27:34):
else, I think the craziest thingthat I remember experiencing there, and I
don't know, I'm sure other peopleat some point experienced this, but I
was, uh, some of Iwant to say, it was the fourth
floor on the outside part where it'sopened up and everything. I got to
this one point and all of asudden, I just started having this real,
like sharp pain on my stomach,like I was being stabbed in my

(27:56):
stomach. And I was like,what the hell is that? And I
and I was getting mad, likejust out of know, we're just getting
like real mad. I stepped awayabout twenty feet perfectly fine, walked back
to that same area, same thing, and like the people I was with
me, they're like, what's wrongwith you? And I was like,
I don't know. I was like, I've been fine all night and and
that one little area you're right here, right, just that one area,

(28:18):
it was like somebody was just takinglike a scalp one just just going down
on my stomach, and it wasit was strange. Yeah, So now,
pac Man Paranormal, that's that's justyou and your wife. Correct,
Yes, sir, Now when didyou kind of decide to start a team,
but just you and your wife?Well, those of you who don't

(28:40):
know, a lot of folks whoknow about us at all, know that
I met Denise. Tomorrow will befour years ago to the day that I
met her at Waverley. Nice.We were brought together by the nurse who
was found hanging outside of room fiveh two. Nice. Nice. That's
a long story if you depending onhow long you want this show to go,

(29:03):
I can tell you that story.Hey go right ahead. Well,
okay, all right, because Imade a promise to her that I would
tell her story every chance I got. If she hoped there you go in
the bottom of it. So herewe go. The story of room five
o two that you find in allthe books and all the documentaries and all
the research that you do on WaverleyHills is there was a nurse who was

(29:26):
having an affair with the married doctor. She got pregnant, the doctor wanted
to cut things off, and shegot depressed. Some versions of the story
say that she even caught tuberculosis herself, whatever the case might be. The
story goes on to say that shegave herself an abortion, oh well,

(29:48):
having an abortion, whether she gaveit to herself or head it done by
someone there with her. And thenshe hung herself right outside of room five
o two. And that's the storythat's told by guides. That's the story
you'll find everywhere. That story doesn'tmake any sense to me when I think

(30:10):
about all of the factors that gointo the fifth floor at Waverly Hills and
being a nurse there in the thirtieswhen this happened, and I mean,
you know, you think about it. If you worked at Waverly Hills,
you were confined to Waverly Hills.It was almost like a prison sentence by
having a job because you couldn't leavethe property. They didn't taking contamination out
into the community. Right There's anentire wing at Waverley would call the nurses

(30:36):
wing because there were a lot ofnurses. They got sick themselves and that's
where they were treated. A lotof them died. Nurses in the nineteen
thirties were lucky to bring home twentyfive dollars a week. Nursing was not
a prestigious career back then. Youwere a woman in the workforce in the

(30:56):
thirties. Basically it was a metaltask, is what it was considered.
Was until like after round World Wartwo that nursing became glorious, you know,
and prestigious and respected. But anyway, the fifth floor at Waverley Hills
housed two classes Clue Good, twoclasses of patients. One wing to the

(31:22):
right of room five o two ifyou're standing with your back to the door.
The wing to the right of roomfive o two house patients who had
two bercular meningitis, which is basically, oh that's not good tb yeah.
Yeah, And like common meningitis,it mostly affected young adults and children.
So those were mostly young adults andchildren. And that ward, the ward

(31:45):
to the left was for patients twelveand under was stage five tuberculosis, so
kids that probably weren't gonna make it, you know, really sick kids twelve
and under. And that's that's thepatients that were there on the fifth floor.
So you think about a woman shewouldn't have done She wouldn't have done

(32:06):
that, who gave up everything,you know, she took that risk for
not much money. She had tohave cared about those kids and those people
she was working with in order tomake that sacrifice and take that job.
Yeah, where she went hanging wasin plain view both of those wars.
Would she do that to those kidssomeone that cared in that way? No,

(32:30):
that never made sense to me.So I made it a point to
try to get to the bottom ofher story and over time I started getting
a little bit of the time outof her. Did she ever did you
ever find her name? Yeah?One night I had the group up there.
This is back when I first startedgiving private overnights. I had a

(32:51):
group up there and I had toldthem the store, because that was basically
the script for the tours, wasthe abortion and affair story all that.
I had told him that it wasjust three guys that was there for the
night. They had run in thebuilding and it was just me and those
three guys on the hill, nowomen at all. And like I had

(33:14):
done that other group, I toldhim, I said, I'll be down
in the laundring room. He canmeet me. Come and get me,
all right, And so they camedown there a couple hours into it.
They said, Hey, we're notgetting a whole lot. Do you want
to come up and see if maybeyou can stir something up? I was
like, sure, why not?So we went up there. They were
up on the fifth floor. Theyhad all their equipment laid out right there
under where she had found then foundhanging, and they were asking questions like

(33:39):
why did you kill your baby?Who was the doctor you were sleeping with?
Oh gosh, yeah, and they'regetting nothing. And I started,
actually, you know, just listeningto them, and I started feeling bad
because, you know, that's whatI had told them, you know,
I mean, they were just goingby what I had said, right,

(33:59):
But I'm thinking, what if that'snot what happened at all? What if
that story is made up to coverup another story or whatever, you know,
or what if it's just total nonsense? Right anyway, I said,
Okay, you mind if I chimein, and they said sure, go
ahead. So I sat down againstthe elevator door there right across from five

(34:20):
o two, and I said,Hey, my name is Ernie. I'm
going to be spending a lot oftime up here with you, and I
want to get to know you.I want to tell your story. I
want to tell the truth about whathappened at night. I don't think the
story I tell about you is whatreally happened. It just doesn't make sense
to me. I promise you,if you'll help me tell your story,
I'll tell each and every person i'llmeet, like you guys right now,

(34:44):
I'll tell them your story, allright, But you gotta help. Can
you just tell me your name?And I've paused for a minute, and
you hear a little tiny female voicefrom over in front of room five O
four, says Sarah. Oh,and we all about I get a lump

(35:05):
in my throat when I tell thestory. We all about John, you
know, I mean, we weren'texpecting it to actually get a disembodied voice
from fifteen feet away. When Iasked that we thought something might light up,
you caught on a right they couldhear later. Yeah, well,
Sarah, and we were like WHOA. So you know, I started asking

(35:30):
different questions. I changed the wholetone of the conversation. They started asking
different questions, and that night startedwhat's been going on, off and on
since two thousand and nine. Everychance I get, me going up there
having conversations with Sarah and trying topull her story together. And then in

(35:52):
twenty nineteen, June twenty nineteen,this lady had rented the building with some
friends of hers for private overnight,and I gave them their walk through and
I got up to the fifth floor. I told the story, and for
some reason that night, because Iwasn't supposed to go off script, for

(36:14):
some reason that night, I said, but I don't really think that's what
happened. If you guys would liketo hear what I think happened, I'd
be happy to tell you. Andthey all were. They were like,
sure, go ahead, what doyou think? And so I told him
Sarah's story that I've been piecingly andI'm looking and this woman standing over there
in the shadows, and she justgrinning and nodding her head like she already

(36:36):
knew what I was gonna say before. And so I got done with the
tour and I pulled her aside.I said, you acted like you knew
Sarah's story before I would tell it. And she said, well, I've
been coming here since two thousand andnine. I remember working there since two
thousand and ninety. I've never mether before. Somehow she had been coming
on nights I wasn't working, andvice versa. You know what I'm saying.

(37:00):
Wow, But she'd been coming sincetwo thousand and nine, once or
twice a year at least, andshe's a nurse, and she had always
been drawn to that story too.She never thought it was right. So
she had been researching. She hadgotten the name Sarah, she had gotten
all of the things that I pointedout in what I had gotten, and

(37:20):
so her and I started talking andwe wound up being married. We both
had these tattoos. Now it's allSarah's fault. It's all Sarah's fault.
But you know, we started aswe started investigating together, we wound up

(37:45):
people were interested in what we werefinding. So we decided, well,
we need to have a name.We need to call ourselves a paranormal team.
You know, well, I've alwayshad the nickname pac Man because my
last name is pack And what didpac Man do? He Chase goes,
right, Yeah, it made completesense to me. Yeah, so we

(38:05):
thought pike Man paranormal and you know, but it's got the K in there,
and you know, because that's inmy name, right. But anyway,
we started the podcast that it wasone of the more popular podcasts on
Paranormal Warehouse for a long time,and we would tell Sarah's story on there
and other people would chime in.They'd send us their own evidence that they've

(38:25):
gotten over the years that would coincidewith what we had gotten and help us
fill in the blanks and Sarah's storyand so we've pretty much got the whole
story now and it's you know,over the course of now what fourteen years
and it's probably thirty to forty teensthat have sent pieces of evidence that have

(38:47):
helped put that story together. Allright, you hear it. It makes
a lot more sense than the otherstory. And Sarah's story is basically,
she was the youngest kid in herfamily. She had an older sister she
adored. They caught tuberculosis and diedat the age of fifteen. Wow.

(39:07):
Sarah decided she wanted to be anurse. She wanted to work with kids
who had tuberculosis. She was therunt of her family. That's her word,
you know, it was the runtof the litter, actually, right,
I love it. Yeah, anduh so she was very tiny,
very soft spoken. She became anurse at the age of twenty two,
got a job at Waverley Hills.Because she was so small and so soft

(39:30):
spoken, they thought it'd be agood idea to put her up there on
the fifth floor with those really singlethe kids, because she's small like them,
she soft spoken. They wouldn't bein today, scared. So she
was new, you know, shewas one of the new employees, so
she worked the night shift. Sheloved her job. She was up there
for three years. On the nightshift. She called it heaven. I

(39:54):
know that because I've asked her alot of times, why aren't you in
heaven? And she says this washeaven. Yeah, you know. So
one night she's up there alone inroom five O four. Another step,
what's that five O four or fiveoh two's five O two is just a

(40:15):
restaurant? Oh, okay, gotit? Five O four is was the
nurses station at the time. Okay, got it. Another staff member came
up the steps. She never heardthe bell ring for the elevator, so
she knows he must have come upthe steps. For a long time,
I would get over the Obelist oror eedp whatever, we'd hear Nobel,

(40:36):
Nobel, and I thought she wastalking about Nobel Peace Prize or something like,
you know, And so I wentdown this rabbit hole of looking for
someone that, you know, maybeone of the doctors at Waverley won a
Nobel Prize back in the day orsomething like that. You know. I
was researching that, trying to figureit out. Finally, one day I
was sitting there and I looked overacross from five oh two and I see

(40:57):
the bell for the elevator, andI think maybe she means no bell.
So I started asking questions about that, and finally I said, do you
mean you didn't hear the bell ofthe elevator? And the response on EVP
was funny. It was like,yes, like I've been trying to tell
you that, you know what Imean. So anyway, this guy comes

(41:22):
in the room behind her. Heattacks her. She tried to fight back.
She's too little, he's too strong. She didn't want to scream and
wake the kids, but she didtry to fight, but he got what
he wanted. She was a virginuntil that night. Somewhere in the process
he hurt my neck. They coveredit up, They lied no baby,

(41:49):
rape, murder. Help me.Now you think about it, that story
makes a lot more sense, right, that makes a lot more It's a
lot more sense. And it's allbased got out of my head or anybody
else's head. It's through eedps,paranormal evidence. It's been gay over the
course of a long time. Now, so as somebody, as somebody who's

(42:13):
who does historic haunts, have youactually pinned it to a real person,
have you found have you found herrecords? We actually found a grave that
had Sarah and had the last I'mnot going to say it because it's local

(42:34):
here and there might be right thathad all of that and everything added up,
the sister, the age of thesister, when she passed everything,
we think we had her grave.We went back up there like six months
later. And this is weird.People who think you're crazier making stuff up
when you say this, But wewent up there like six months later that

(42:58):
same cemetery. That stone is gone. Sarah was gone. The rest of
them are there, but her stone. Wow. She had actually given us
a name of the person and theoccupation who had done it. And I'm
not gonna say that either, becausethose people are their their family is still

(43:19):
here. But we found in theemployee records that guy's name, the one
who did it, and that jobdescription, and did find that he was
there. Now, Sarah, wecan't find her in the employee records,
but we found a stone with hername, the same name that she had

(43:40):
given us. But the employee recordsare kind of inconsistent and incomplete, right
because if you know the history ofWaverley, a lot of the records were
destroyed in the thirty seven flood becausethey were kept downtown at city Hall,
which was flooded during the thirty sevenflood and those records were lost. Well,
this we think happened around nineteen thirtythree, so those records would have

(44:04):
been lost anyway, right, Butwe can't find a record of her yet.
But we did find a record ofthe person that she says did it.
Oh wow, that's loud. Yeah, I need you to send me
a message on that one. I'llgo look for it all right now,
David will boost for me. Hesaid, I can find things that people

(44:29):
don't they can't find. He's lookedat me, like, how do you
do that? Right? Yeah,I'll send her a picture. It was.
It was crazy. Just a fewdays ago, I sent her a
picture of this little cemetery we foundout we had across the road, and
within like two minutes she had foundthe cemetery sent me a picture of the

(44:50):
name of it. And I'm like, how the hell did you do that?
Yeah? That sounds like Denise islike, I mean, she's like
she's a stalker. I mean solderspretty much. Yeah, yeah, right
now, I noticed your hat HauntedDiscoveries. How are you like involved in
that show? And at all?We've filmed it with Brandon and Mostafa and

(45:13):
Kevin and Malia on two separate episodes, one at the Old Stone Jail and
Franklin, Kentucky Nice. He's gonnabe aired on Nice one and then just
a few weeks ago we filmed WaverleyNice Nice. I've actually uh, he's
actually gonna be guest number two nextweek. Brandon, Yeah, Brandon,
ye, so's he's uh and uhAnd he went to my Old Stone Jail.

(45:37):
I've been there twice myself. Inthat place is pretty cool too.
Yeah, that's where Denise and Igot married. Actually, oh really,
oh really very cool. If youknow father Casey Scruggs. He married is
at the Old Stone Jail. Andour our reception was afterwards. Heck,
yeah, that's that's all that wouldright, Oh well that's that would be

(46:00):
perfect. It was. It wasa good time. That that's that's that's
that's awesome. Um so Fort Duffieldto the first official Overnight started. It's
coming this this Saturday, this weekend, um which which Kelley has a big
investigation this weekend too, which Ican't make and I'm very upset about it.

(46:20):
But you know, I'm gonna callyou and go no no, no,
no, no no, na likeevery half an hour. No,
no, look, I'm taking aselfie with a demon, right, so
again if people want to get Yeah, we're heading up to We're heading up

(46:42):
to the United Methodist Village and I'mtaking my friends two mediums to go check
in Wendy Wilson and um we're gonnahave three. We're gonna have two mediums
and are reluctant in the in thehouse. Yeah all right, Now,
what was that Facebook again? Ifpeople want to want to book, it

(47:06):
is Hauntings of Fort Duffield. Itis a Facebook group, so you can
just search your Facebook groups for Hauntingsof Fort Duffield or you can find me
Ernie Pack on Facebook. I'm prettyeasy to get in touch with a direct
message and we'll work something out.We'll find a date that works for both
of us and make it happen.Mayna make that happen, Damian, Damian,

(47:29):
we gotta make that one happen.Yeah, because if we can camp
out too, I'll take my airmattress out there throughout my tarp and I'll
be good to go. There yougo, it's a get carried off by
big Foot. Hey, you neverknow, you never know. I've had
enough Bigfoot. I used to livein the Pacific Northwest. I'm very familiar

(47:50):
with it. He really smells heexists. Yes, I know they do.
Yeah, seen him, been aroundhim. Yeah same here. All
right, Well, everybody, thishas been Ernie Pack helping promote Fort Duffield.
Everybody go check out the Facebook pageand if you can get up there

(48:12):
and investigate, okay place, getup there and investigate this place. And
now being Kelly's gonna put it onour bucket list and uh hopefully get up
there before it gets way too coldoutside. Yeah, yeah, make it
happen, man. I mean,we we have plenty of open dates right
now. Right, we're open everynight except for when we're out of town.
We're gonna be got nothing in August. August is wide open. We're

(48:34):
pretty much open in August. We'regonna be at the Getty Gettysburg Battlefield Bash
in July. Nice but I think, yeah, it's that's always a good
time. That's the next one forme is Gettysburg. It's it's an awesome
place. You need to check itout. But yeah, just just let
me know anybody that anybody that's lookingto the book, just contact me.

(48:59):
Like I said, I'll check myschedule if if we're going to be in
town and nobody else has a booked, it's all yours and we'll make it
happen. Thank you for making itaffordable. Yeah, that was one thing
we're trying to raise because the fortreally needs help. The city needs the
fort needs help. I mean,there's a lot of things that need to
be repaired up there, A lotof things are you know, a lot

(49:20):
of the wood structures are riding awayand things like that trying to keep it
up, so it really needs help. But at the same time, I
didn't want to charge people so muchmoney that it, you know, broke
the bank to go, right.I think four hundred dollars for up to
ten people is not a bad pricefor not at all, not at all.
One more question on that, isthe fort covered underneath a nonprofit five

(49:43):
O three our business. We're runningthe tours and we're not a five O
one C three onney. The moneythat you pay that we pay to the
city goes to a five O oneC three okay, great, perfect,
okay, great, okay, cold, It goes in the event that somebody
felt as though they needed to spendlottery money and invest at someplace in a

(50:06):
nonprofit would be a good one todo. Huh, exactly. Yeah,
this money, the proceeds that webring in does go to the city good
to the City Preservation Fund, doingbusiness as friends Afford Deffield or I forget
exactly nice, nice worded, butit's it's a fible one C three That
nice. Yeah, that's good,that's very good. A good cause to

(50:29):
prevent history. I mean, youknow, our history is being ripped,
ripped down and the heart and everywhere. We're not going to talk about that
preservation of something that's historical, right, I know, like why are you
tearing down history? That's why historyis there so that we don't repeat it.
We can learn from it, exactly, exact, exactly. All right,

(50:52):
Well, everybody makes sure you gocheck out the Facebook page. Get
it, get your investigation books.Ernie. Thank you for joining the show
over being the guest number one onseason three. Kelly, it was fun
having you as my co host.Hopefully you come back first. Hopefully you
come back first. I will doit again, all right, everybody,

(51:14):
even take a shower, all right, I'll put my nose hairs for this.
I've shaved my legs but they're notvisible, all right. Well,
everybody, thank you for listening andwe will catch everybody next time. Thanks
Ernie, thank you, y'all,take care. Bye bye