The Out of Body Experience w/ The Truth Disciples Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome through Lighting and Voting. Oh broadcasting live from a
shack on a hill in the Mossy Creek bottoms of
Cane Creek, Arkansas. This is Lighting the Void Thursday, July
of the eighteenth, twenty twenty four and wow, like right
off the bat, before we get into tonight's conversation, which

(00:22):
is gonna be awesome. By the way, we're taking a
break from the tree of life. We've only got, We've
only got, We've only got, We've only got two spheres left. Yes,
so it did malcouth to discuss. But we're taking a
break from that tonight because we're going to discuss the
own of body experience with a new an up and
coming podcaster that was introduced to me by one of

(00:45):
our listeners, Malorcus, and it's brother Paul from The Truth
Disciples is going to be here with us tonight as
we discuss the out of body experience. You guys have
to check out this podcast. It's so awesome. But before
we get into this conversation, I do want to thank
real quick. Let me let me just thank some people

(01:06):
for their support. First, the patrons Amy Shandra Tamashi and
Jared Gareth Charlotte, Deborah, Abby Normal and I'm sure I'm
missing some here, but I'm just going down the list,
and for those that have helped out with the air
conditioner that we're working on, so we're doing the the

(01:28):
Tarot readings for seventy percent off, so you get an
hour one on one with me, and this is that's
This has been amazing, honestly, so Maya, Trey, Brian, Jennifer, Nancy, Jane, Susie, Stacy,
Michael and Angela. Man. I had so much fun today

(01:49):
talking to everybody, and Michael, I can't wait to talk
to you guys again. And it's just been it's been.
I have more people that are doing and readings and helping,
and it's just been an amazing I can't put words
to it. To it's been an amazing ride this week actually,

(02:10):
and it's not that bad in the shack tonight, honestly,
here on this July eighteenth, twenty twenty four, it's not
that bad in the shack tonight. So it's nice and cool,
and so I figured it would be it's a good
time to talk about the out of body experience and
our guest that's coming on and I'll be here with
you while we play the interview. But the guest tonight,

(02:33):
like this guy. When I listened to the podcast, mellorc
Has hit me up and said, hey, man, this guy
had Liam Christopher on this podcast. You should check it out.
And it's called The Truth Disciples. So I went and
checked it out and it was It kind of brought
me back to the old days of podcasting. Not saying
that this podcast is old by any means. What I'm

(02:55):
saying is is it sparked even more passionate side of
me to investigate this topic. I guess you could say,
so to speak. So what we're gonna do is we're
gonna get into the interview and if you've got any questions,
just throw them in the chat. But man, this is

(03:18):
this is gonna be cool. You guys are gonna like it, Okay,
So let me just jump into that because this thing
is gonna take up probably we're probably gonna run a
little late tonight. Also, stay tuned after the broadcast deep
into the late night with Jess Rogi. She'll be here
on the Fringe FM on the radio station too if
you're listening on the station as well. All right, So

(03:39):
here we go, man, let's jump into this again. Thank you,
Thank you guys so much. Really like the readings. The
sale is still going, by the way, and pretty much
everybody's wanted the face to face readings, but I've only
I've only worked on one recording for somebody. But you
can do it either way. You can go to the
Patreon shop or you can donate and then email producer

(04:02):
at the Fringe FM and we'll get you booked. All right,
So let's get into this thing. Okay, make sure that's
going all right. So we're here with Paul from the
Truth Disciples podcast. Brother Paul is here with us, and
I'm so stoked about this man because I got to
listen to this show that Melorcus reached out to me

(04:22):
on the telegram group and said, you got to hear
this show, and I never heard of it before I
saw the logo. The logo made me become instantly intrigued
because it says so much in the logo. And then
I noticed that there was an interview with Liam Thomas Christopher,
so I thought, I got to listen to this now.
To be honest, I was more intrigued to listen to

(04:44):
what Liam was going to say because this guy's been
hidden forever. He just now did a YouTube channel and
now he's out on podcasts. But as I listened to
the podcast, I got that old nostalgic feeling again, that
passionate feeling that I had when I first started this
show and just it. This podcast, you guys, the Truth Disciples,

(05:06):
reignited a spark in me that I'd lost for a
long long time. Man, And I haven't even told him
this yet because I'm waited till I got the show
to say this, because this is what everything is about.
And I listened to this show three times. Three times
I listened to this episode again. I kept finding new stuff.

(05:29):
And that's when you know that this is a good
podcast when you want to re listen to it again
and again. So thank you Paul for coming on. Brother.
It's really good to have you. Man.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
No the Pleasures all Maine. I'll be honest. Total disclosure
here and not alien disclosure, just disclosure in general. I've
listened to you for five six years something around that time. Wow,
I remember episodes from William Bulman. Obviously that's very relevant
to what we're going to be talking about. Solomonic magicians,

(06:01):
gnostic themed episodes with the likes of Miguel Corner from
me on Bay. There was even one whose name escapes
me that really sticks out to me. It was an
optometrist who actually cured these site partially through meditation and
need to go back and look at that. Oh yeah,
I'm totally honored to be here, Joris Is. I actually

(06:22):
tried to reach out to you about four maybe about
four or five months ago, in the hope that I
could actually convince you to do an interview for Hour channel.
So when I actually got a mail from yourself, I
was blown away. It totally knock the wind out myself
for a day. So no, I'm really honored to be here,
So thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
Man. I think what's meant to be is will always
be meant to be. And back then there were so
many emails I didn't respond to because throughout the life
of my podcast, it's been complete chaos in my life.
I just haven't revealed it. But it's been such a
spiritual and like listening to you when I heard you

(07:03):
talking going back and forth. I'll just want to start
with this with Liam Thomas Christopher, who is a very
I think, very very even now even though he's more
known now a very underestimated occultist and author. Right the uh,
the vibe that I got from me is like, this
guy knows kind of what I've been through. See. And

(07:24):
I started coming to this realization after listening to lots
of podcasts that some people, and we'll just jump right
into the out of body stuff, but some people have
had lucid dreams and some very real kind of lucid
experiences in the dream world. And then other people have
had like some real kind of I'm out of my

(07:45):
body etheric projections. And this is where I kind of
realized that until you have this kind of experience, other
people don't even really know how to relate to it
or explain it. But I know I could tell that
you kind of have had the same experience that I have,
if you want to talk about that.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
Oh yeah, First and foremost, what I should say is
that I'm by no means an expert. I'm like yourself.
I'm an experiencer. I'm a seeker. There's been things through
my whole life looking back now that I've been guided
down this path that might seem crazy to some people,
but it kind of just fell in my lap. But

(08:27):
the whole outer body, actual projection stuff. It wasn't until
after I'd actually had a full experience that I induced
myself that I realized I'd been having experiences like that
from a young age. So it was interesting, but my
childhood was really traumatic for various reasons. It was very unsettled.

(08:52):
During my early teenage years. I moved about a lot
as a kid. I was over in South Africa for
a couple of years during the height of a party.
Then after two years I was back in Scotland again.
A few months later, I was then living in London,
which is stayed there for about about a year and
a half maybe just over that. And while I was

(09:12):
in London, just ready to turn about seventeen years old,
we used to go out for a break. I used
to work in a warehouse and for a very well
known clothing company and during more breaks we would, after
having something to eat, we would go outside and play
football or what you guys, you guys would call soccer.

(09:34):
Yeah basically yeah, and not a real man's game and
it was a bit of a but enough. Yeah, there
was an African gentleman who had came to work with us,
quite mysterious, never really said too much. We would go
for our long lunch break and he would just sleep

(09:57):
during that time in the warehouse. I thought was sleeping.
And one day I invited him to come with us
during lunch and he said no, he was going to
stay and he was going to stay in the warehouse.
And I asked him a question. I said, why do
he always stay here during lunch and sleep and he said,

(10:18):
I'm not actually sleeping, And that led to us getting
into conversations that what he was doing was a thing
that he called soul travel. Being quite young, he explained
to him it was part of our religion. He followed
that religion is called a can car. I think it
was like a new age sort of religion that sprung

(10:40):
up in the sixties, based in the United States, but
spread all over the world. And I got really intrigued.
He talked about being able to travel out of body,
how this religion taught you how to do it, this
soul travel. And he gave me a book with a
chapter that had some exercises in it, and that led

(11:01):
to me experimenting over a number of weeks, possibly around
about a month. I mean, I'm going back thirty four
years here I'm giving my age away. But after about
a month, I had an experience that I can only
describe it as the most frightening thing that had ever
happened to me. I found myself out of body. After

(11:24):
this really intense vibrational state. This vibrational state, the only
way I can describe it is that everything was resonating.
Everything was vibrating with an intensity that nothing I can
say here, We'll do it justice, but there was no
I was resonating everywhere, but there was no shape to
my body. I couldn't have told you that's an arm,

(11:47):
that's a leg. My body was gone, and then I
was out of body. And what I experienced was experiencing
myself from five different angles, all at the same time.
I had a central central part of me where I

(12:07):
was experiencing the consciousness level I was in, but I
was also seeing myself from four different angles and experiencing
it from their perspective, all at the same time, kind
of like when somebody talks about by location. But this
was like five different experiences of me all at once

(12:27):
from different perspectives. I snapped out of it because the
fear just got so bad and it terrified me and do.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
You think you were dead? Possibly, like, are you dying? Maybe?

Speaker 2 (12:41):
When the vibrational states started, I couldn't actually stop it,
and I actually thought I was dying because I'd never
experienced anything like that, or I'd never remembered the experience
and anything like that. So I did think I was
dying snapped out of this experience, and it terrified me

(13:01):
because it seemed to have opened a door. Every time
I tried to go to sleep after that, the next
night or the next day or a week later, every
time I was falling asleep and going through that happened
agogic state, the vibrations would come on again, and I
would actually jerk my body physically to stop myself being

(13:23):
pulled back into a similar situation again. So terrifying, and
that that fear, that fear of dying perceiving something that's
so beyond words like that took me quite a long
time to get over and fight through, which was a
big journey in itself. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Wow, man, So all these exercises you did the kind
of let up to that moment, and then it's like
you unlocked something that you couldn't there there was kind
of no way of going back, right, You know.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
No, there was no way of going back. The door
was open, and then it was a battle to actually
keep it shot. It was as stuff I had a
week in something that wanted to be opened, and once
it opened, the door to it was very hard to
cause it after that.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
Do you think that when you listen to other people
talk about the out of body experience, do you think
that that some people just don't understand what you went through. Sometimes,
like even though they read about it, they understand it
like this, I'm not trying to It's almost like I'm
projecting this on to you because I feel like this

(14:36):
sometimes like they understand lucid dreamings, they understand what their
ideas of astral travel is and all this other stuff.
But when you've seen your body as it is and
you're actually like in the world as itself, and even
hearing other people like even Liam just is just only
my opinion say, well, you think you're out of your
body and all this stuff, and it's like, man, I

(15:01):
kind of know, like I know I was out of
my body, but at the same time, I can question
the reality of the conscious state that I was in
for sure. But I just think some people haven't had
that etheric projection, you know, And even later in the
episode he kind of talks, well, I've never really had
that kind of a thing out of body, you know,
And so it makes me wonder like if we're missing

(15:26):
something there? Am I making sense? Like if we're missing
between that and the lucid state maybe you know?

Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, No, I'm totally with you on us. I think
I know or I can feel when somebody's had the
same type of experience as me, because there's annoying to it,
where if somebody talks about lucid dreaming and they think
they're not leaving their body, well that's a belief they're

(15:53):
not leaving their body. But I've got a knowing that
I've actually been outside of my body, you know. Say
belief is the enemy of knowing. It's I suppose it's
the heart of any sort of nosis, any sort of knowledge. Again,
but yeah, I can tell when somebody's had a similar
experience to me. And I think, in my opinion, I

(16:14):
think lucid dreaming and actual projection, remote viewing, these things
are all linked in some way, but they might be
different levels of a changing consciousness. Being out your body
for me is different than lucid dreaming states that that
I've experienced, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, because it's more scary, right, But no, I don't
know about like, and only got scared once. I thought
I was trapped in a place once. But to me,
it's more like I feel like I'm in the real world.
I did experiments brother, like where affecting the real world
where I would knock on tables and stuff and hope

(16:56):
my son could hear it. You know, Am I really
knocking on the I don't know, but he definitely jerked.
He definitely talked about it, right, And also it made
me question, well, maybe the illusion is just being in
the body, right, Maybe that's maybe that's the illusion. And
when I get out of body, I'm starting to mingle

(17:16):
this cohesive other place, which kind of makes me think,
can we affect the physical realm when we're out of body? Right?
I still have that question. Even though I've had those experiences,
I need more kind of feedback to figure that out.
You know, it's a little bit poltramnastic, but you know.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
No, no, no, I get it completely. A feelings of
physical reality is only a small percentage of what's really
going on with us in terms of what consciousness. J
it us, that's okay. And I'm still looking after thirty
four years. That's why I'm in of view and all
the people and trying to get different perspectives because I'm

(17:57):
still trying to pick the Jake saw together. When when
you're a body and you're in these different realms, the
astro realm, and you know people who say there's there's
layers above that the cause of realm and so on,
the laws are different. It's almost like the filters that
we have onners in the physical realm that this cement

(18:17):
us to this place get lifted in. The higher you go,
the less restrictions there are on you, and you know yourself,
give experience that in the astro you can be out
your body, you can levity, you can think of somewhere
and be there. Whether that's instill real Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Like I've flown in Lucid dreaming, man, I have, but
flying in the etheric state, what I call the etheric state,
is a totally different experience. Yeah, I'm not dreaming. I
just don't feel like it's a dream. I don't. It
doesn't feel like a dream to me at all whatsoever.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, you know, well, one one thing I would say
about that is a course for that I'm involved in.
Anosuscript Worth, who's just started on a spiritual path, really
was asking me about the difference between lucid dreaming and
natural projection. Was there any difference between these these phenomena,

(19:14):
And I said, well, what I found from lucid dreaming
when I become conscious and awake in my actual dream,
when I control that, and actually I can gain control
of my dream, I can change the environment and my dream.
I can change how people look, I can change It's
almost the way I would describe lucid dreaming as you
are playing around in your own subconscious which has a

(19:37):
lot of value to it, because in the spiritual path
where trying to improve, you know, break down some of
what I goic framework. Hope the listeners know what I'm
talking about, and I say that, But when it comes
to full n actual projection, I can't change my environment.
That's a difference for me.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
No, man Like it's a so I know, we're two
podcasters talking to each other, so I'm sure this is
going to kind of go back and forth. But when
I got out of my body, if I don't know,
if you listen to I've talked about this on several episodes,
but when I came out, I was really trying. So
the first time I came out, it wasn't until after
I'd listened to Buelman, listened to Robert Monroe, picked up

(20:19):
Samuel on Vioor's book, and then started doing the I said, okay, well,
I'll try some of this dream yoga stuff. But the
act I think the dream Yoga book actually triggered that
I was already getting to this vibratory state. But I
think the dream Yoga thing triggered something else. Right, But
I came out of my body, went through the front door,

(20:39):
walked outside, and I'm telling you, it felt more real
than what I feel like right now. Right there was
kind of like this weird low hum, maybe kind of
a subtle vibration constantly, but everything was just oddly quiet
and real, you know. And I thought, oh, man, first thing,

(21:01):
like I'm going to test this out, because in that
book you actually try to fly in the physical world,
which is ridiculous. Right. But I flew right, and I
flew to that tree right over there, and it wasn't
like I flew like Peter Pan. It was almost like
I focused on it. And pulled myself towards it right,
and I was like, dude, I was so I was

(21:22):
trying to tell myself not to give into astonishment, but
it was almost impossible because this was an amazing thing,
you know. So when I hear people say, yeah, I've
losed the dream before, Yeah, I went to the thirty
second dimension and talked to aliens and all this other stuff,
I'm like, no, man, I'm talking about something different, Like
I was outside of my body in the physical world

(21:46):
in a different place. I don't know how to, you know.
And when I hear you talk about it, I'm like,
he knows, like he knows, you know.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, yeah, for me, the big distinctions and of expediing stuff.
It sounds, you know, people will talk to you in
the astro. It's not really like we talk to one
another here. It's really strange. I've heard hums in the
astro realm if I've been slightly elevated above that. I've

(22:14):
heard elements and music, bells, chimes. Sometimes I've heard that
hum that we're describing here is more like a white
noisy sort of almost like an ocean, but not an ocean. Again,
an ocean doesn't really describe it. So I've had things
try to pull me out my body when I've been

(22:36):
in a hit and the gogic state tugging on me, giggling, laughing.
I mean, these things will sound really frightening to somebody,
and they are the first time you experience them. But
one of the messages I'm trying to get across the
hour listeners is that the benefits of experimental experimenting with
things like lucid dreaming and ultimately the one you want

(22:57):
to be in for is full actual projection. Benefits for
you as a person spiritually are amends and there's really
nothing to fear. But it's everybody's going Johnny to get
through that fear having something togging on you and trying
to tog you a bit. Is there not something you've
really prepared for until after it's happened, you know.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
Never had I've never been pulled on. That does scare
me a little bit, But I've been shoved back in,
shoved back in right by these weird looking like not
translucent wasshack kind of blobby things. You know, I wasn't
really relying. I was trying to force my way out, Paul,
like I was. I was so excited about getting out

(23:40):
of body. That's all I wanted to do, right, And
then I think it kind of caused me to get
I'd get to the vibratory state and I'm like, okay,
let's go, all right, let's go, and I couldn't go.
And one time I came kind of started to come
halfway out because I got frustrated, and I said, I
command you. I said this out of my mouth. It
didn't sound like my voice. It was the thing I said,
I command you to release me by life and light. Right,

(24:04):
That's what I said. And I don't know where it
came from. I don't know whose voice it was. It
was the deepest voice ever heard in my life. And
as soon as I said that, these blob things they
were already kind of up there. I could see them.
But as soon as I said that, they just they
kind of just it was less than a second. Sheved
me right back in and I immediately woke up. And

(24:24):
I wasn't scared, but I was calm, because you're pretty
calm when you're in that state, right, But I was like, yeah,
what the hell was that? And still to this day,
I don't know what those things were. But it was,
I got this vibe. It's like, oh no, no, no, no,
you don't want to do that right, almost like I
might have actually been commanding my soul to leave or
something and didn't know it, you know.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah, so I don't know. Yeah, that's really interesting. I remember,
is it Johnny's Outside the Body of Robert Monroe? I
think it's that book that he talks about being thrown
back into his body, and I don't know if he
balanced that out by maybe wasn't ready for that layer

(25:06):
of realization. I've had a few experiences in my life
where something has came through me it's protected me. At
the time when it happened, I thought I didn't know
I had that in me, But then years later I'm like,

(25:26):
is that actually another part of me that I'm not
conscious of more of the time that took over my
physical state and actually protected me and a very precarious situation.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
So what do you mean? Can you elaborate on that
a little bit? Like what happened? Yeah, well, you don't
have to talk about it if you don't want, But
I'm just curious.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
No, no, no, I mean I'm happy to talk about it.
My family know about it. It was a big deal.
It was fourteen. I was in South Africa at the time.
I've always loved animals. Joe always us to bring animals
home as a kid, frogs, buds of prey. I used
to drive my parents and my grandparents crazy with the
stuff I brought home and thought I would be a hervet.
I was absolutely insane when it came to animals. And

(26:09):
when I moved to South Africa, I had a room
full of reptiles. I had a pet cameleon. I used
to take the school that I had caught out there.
I had a room full of snakes that I used
to keep and we used to go catching snakes. It
was one of our kind of pastimes as a kid
over there. Nothing poisonous or dangerous. But during that time

(26:29):
in South Africa, I mean South Africa was probably one
of the most violent countries on the planet at the
time in the eighties. Jannisburg was like it was termed
the mudder capital of the world at the time. When
I was out there and we were out in what
the South Africans would call the felt, which is just
like the countryside close by the area. We stayed maybe

(26:52):
about a mile and a half out and me and
my friends took bus shoes off and we climbed down
into a small river like stream at this sandy bed.
We're walking and we're bare feet. We had a what
we would call a kit bag, like a sports bag,
with about three or four snakes and it we'd captured

(27:12):
earlier on that day. And we're walking down this little
shallow stream. It had high banks, maybe about eight ten
feet something like that. And I heard a voice and
I stopped. My friends. We're only fourteen, and I said,
I heard someone there. Now we're out a couple of
miles out from anywhere. There was nobody about from what

(27:34):
we had noticed. My friends never heard anything. They kind
of settled me down. We kept on walking, and all
of a sudden, this gentleman who was probably early twenties,
much older than us, is standing on the bank shouting
at us to come to them. Another two individuals came

(27:58):
from behind them and has spread themselves maybe about ten
feet either side of them, and I noticed he was
holding a knife, the main guy. You could see the
handle and I could see the blade running up that
inside of his forearm, a blade with it. Yeah, fourteen,
we were all fourteen. We used to play any same
football team out there, and the blade must have been

(28:21):
eighteen inches in length. Something came over me where I
turned round to my two friends and I said, I'm
going to motion towards them as soon as I say run, run,
And I took a couple of steps towards a guy.
He was screaming, come you come here. He was screaming

(28:45):
very kind of violently intimidating fashion, and I shouted run,
and I turned round and my two friends had already
started running.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
They started running, which in hindsight was was the right
thing to do.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah, I get as far as as possible. Yeah, I was.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
A really fast runner at that time, and we had
taken my shoes off. I dropped my training shoes and
started clambering up the bank. I could hear these three
men coming down the bank behind me, but I never
turned round. I could hear them getting closer. My two
friends got up started running across the felt this field

(29:30):
which had actually been bumped. The grass had been bumped,
and the only way I can describe it as the
type of grass you get out there, it's really sharp
when it's bumped or cut short. And they were running
across the field I was the last one to come out.
I'm running, running, running, I go past my friends. I
actually catch up and I get past them, and I
turned and glanced around, and my friend is still holding

(29:53):
this kit bag. One of the men grabs it, punches
them in the mouth. He roll manages to get back
in his feet and keeps on running and we ran
for it must have been half a mile to the highway.
My feet were cut to bits. And I always thought
about it after that, like I didn't know I had

(30:15):
that bravery and me to actually do that, because I
wasn't really that brave as a kid.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
Well, they just need a second to get away, right,
They need they needed a distance between them to get away.
And you something it seem sounds like something in you
is just automatically just knew that, right, Like I just
need a little bit of time to get away from him,
you know.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
But Joe, it was like I was viewing somebody else
doing it. Something was talking through me, but it didn't
feel like me. And it's not until now, after all
these years, all the spiritual work and experiments and experiences
I've had, that I'm convinced that that was a higher
part of myself that I didn't know about then that

(30:58):
came through to protect me something to this the I
don't think it was actually me consciously doing it. It
just sort of happened, which was really weird.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
No, that makes a lot of sense though, right, So
I always try to take things from I try to
formulate things in my head. I only talk about the
Kabbala because it's a system. I need a system to
traverse this chaotic realm. Right, The Kabbala seems to work.
But even Monroe and his books talked about he would
meet these kind of beings that were helping him along

(31:27):
the way, and he realized later that it was like
part it was him, you know, And so like in
that sense, I could see that happening too. But almost
like even in a cobbalistic sense, if anybody's familiar with
like Gobora and she just said, right, these are like
really high energies. They're not even anywhere near down here, right,

(31:48):
but they are our guardian angel or christ like self,
whatever you want to call it is connected to that realm.
So yeah, when something like that happens, it's almost like
this sounds like this part of you kicked in and
was like, wait a minute, you know do this thing.
Yeah right now, you know, and just watched over you.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, And for years I tried to process it, like
I was really shocked I had that in me, but
it's not something I'd noticed before. But now I'm convinced
it's a part of me that it's hidden in some way,
like out with this realm that stepped into to protect
me at a time. I think people people don't realize.

(32:32):
I mean, living in South Africa for two years at
that time, the value to life was very lower, but
the murder, rape, the violent crime was so off the
scale unless you'd been there. It's hard to make people
realize that if they had captured us, that they would
have probably killed us to be honest.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
But oh yeah, take whatever you had and kill you.
It sounds like right.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
The funny The funny thing is though, that they're really
superstitious about snakes, so when they opened that bag, they
were in for a bit of a shock.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah. Cool, But do you think that's just one of
the well, just a specific question here. Do you think
that when you were walking and you said I heard
a voice, did you start feeling something then? Kind of
did you start feeling like there's something's about to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I know what's're talking about, I think.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
And my friends basically they had heard nothing. They were
convinced that I was just hearing things because we're down
in this little, shallow of a bedstream thing the noise
of the water and stuff. I suppose it's easy to
you might think you hear something. Oh yeah, that was
one of the biggest events early on in life that

(33:49):
when I look back now, I think I've been getting
nudged along this path by something or another piece of me,
if you want to put it that way. I don't know.
I'm still not I'm still not concrete about what my
thoughts had about that.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
Well, is that what you mean by like a while
ago you said you might have said this off the air,
but I remember you mentioned to me that once you
got out of body, like, you realized that this kind
of thing had been happening to you your whole life, right, Yeah,
So was that one of those moments, And if it was,

(34:23):
what other kind of things did it make you realize? Oh,
you know, this stuff has kind of been there the
whole time, you know.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
Yeah, I would say, when I got over the fear
of the vibrational stage, and eventually it was doing astral
projection at well without fear and really experiment with it.
I realized that I'd been having experiences like that when
it was much younger, and I've got a really vivid
experience of around about the age of ten, being out

(34:55):
of body near our mansion that me and my brother
used to go and kind ap that was near where
Bill left in Scotland. This was before I moved to
South Africa, but it wasn't until I had experience but
I shall travel for a while, I started realizing I've
had these experiences for a long time, not realizing.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
So yeah, yeah, so maybe I can relate to you
this way. Because so for me, when I first had
that out of body experience and I walked outside before
I did the flying, the vision that the it was
almost like the dejah vou came back and I remembered

(35:38):
as a child walking around my grandmother's house looking at
the spoons and the jello modes and stuff in the kitchen,
and I was and it kind of freaked me out
for a minute. I was like, whoa, you know, I've
been in this realm before and most of the time
when I was there. I was usually close to home.
I was outside or in the yard or downstairs somewhere.
Sometimes some weird stuff would have happened, like the spoons

(36:01):
would the hanging spoons would shake, or something like that.
But it's kind of crazy that you say that, because
I it did trigger memories that I had almost I
thought i'd forgotten about, because I had nightmares and all
kinds of crazy stuff when I was a kid, and
sometimes I felt like I was being slung around on
a roller coaster, you know, I could feel it in

(36:22):
my stomach, like I'm flying around uncontrollably and don't know why.
Things like that, and all of that stuff kind of
came back to me when I got out of body
on purpose, right, you know, as an adult. So it's
come strange. I wonder if it's all connected like that.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
Yeah, I think it's all connected. I think it's the
reason that I'm really interested in consciousness reality. Why is
this reality? I think is the reason I'm interested in
Gnostic teachings. And it opened a few other things within me.
The when maybe mying dormant, I should ask, though, before again,

(37:01):
do you experience the vibrational state? Because I think only
about sixty percent of people if I can remember, experienced thatuff.
Not everybody does.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
So for me. For me, I have to like when
I heard you talking about this too, and I'm almost
the exact same way. For me, I have to lay
down as if I'm going to go to sleep, but
keep my mind awake while I'm trying to go to sleep,
and yeah, I'll get the vibrational state'll come upon me.
First It'll be like I can feel my body just
totally relaxing like a cat, and even deeper, you know.

(37:34):
And then once it gets to that point, it's almost
like a subtle wall wall kind of thing in my body.
But it starts to increase, and so it'll peak and
it'll get to a peak level and kind of stay
there the vibrations, and then it'll die back down. And
so that first out of body experience, I'd already vibrated
a few times but didn't get out, but that last

(37:57):
time I let it peak, like really peak, and then
as it started to kind of pull off a little,
I started sitting up on it, like just started to
sit up. And when I set up, I made sure
that I didn't stop, like I didn't stop like this
or kind of stop like that. I made sure that
it was a smooth but not really a hard motion.

(38:17):
I don't know why. And even when I set up
then it didn't feel like anything worked. I was like, man,
that didn't work, you understand, that's how real it was.
I was like, it's still not working, you know. And
I turned around and there I was just conke down,
and I'm like, whoa, whoa, because none of the perception
shifted from that reality to this one. It didn't feel

(38:38):
different at all. You know. That freaked me out because
I realized I'm out of body. But this didn't feel
when did I transition? Like when did it happen? You know?
So that was really trippy.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, well we can. I'll put the tam on the
quickly beyond that as a false awakening, I've had a
number of them over the years. When I started, I
read one of castanadas books, one of his earlier books,
and this was after I had been projecting for a
while and I started learning about lucid dreaming, and at

(39:17):
that time I didn't really know the distinction between them.
But one of the exercises in Castanada's book was to
do these reality checks, and the one that he he
talked about, and that particular book was looking at your hands.
Just analyze your hands through your waking day, every hour,
every few hours, really analyze them, look at them, look

(39:38):
at the solidity of them, the detail on them, and
that trains your subconscious basically to eventually bring that up
in a dream. And when you see your hands in
the dream world, they don't look anything like your physical hands,
and that's when you realize, shit, i'm dreaming. Sorry for
swearing that. And the one of the first false awakenings

(40:05):
I had that actually happened to me. I woke up
in bed. My wife at the time was down the
stairs and the kitchen. I could hear everybody talking, and
I just thought I'd sat up in bed, climbed out
of bed, started walking down the stairs, came through the
hole going in towards the kitchen, and I happened to
look at my hands and they weren't completely translucent, but

(40:27):
they weren't certainly weren't solid. They were like light, formed
of light, but slightly translucent, and I realized I'm out
of body, and I sat up in bed instantly. I
thought it was completely I thought I'd woken up already
and so I've had a number of these when I've
turned around seen myself lying in bed and then that

(40:49):
snapped me back out of it, and I've I've really
woke up in bed, which can be quite frightening. Again,
if it's if it's never happened to you before.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Right, is that what you mean, like my false awakening?
Or you just think you woke up and you didn't
you didn't really work.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
Yeah, I've actually been out of body but thought I was.
I was not a normal waking three D physical reality,
and i'd actually been out of body and I was
walking around in the ash show and realized and I'm
back in bed. Basically I hadn't been awakened at all.
So yeah, that's that's that's quite frightening.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yeah, cool, though it is scary, but it's cool.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
You know, it is awesome. But I've actually got a
question for You've been asking this people recently because I've
not came across anybody yet that can confirm if they've
had the same thing. You know, when you might have
heard the song, I don't know what music you listened to.
I think they might you're younger than me, Jo, but
there'll be songs from the eighties, nineties earlier in my

(41:53):
life that I've got a real nostalgic connection to.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
And showy songs give me nostalgia feelings. I don't know
why I'm not saying that they really do. They bring
up emotions I can't explain to yeople.

Speaker 2 (42:08):
You know, so you've got memories attached to them, or
there might be a smell that you smell and a
memory pops up in your head. Well, one of the
things that happens to me periodically is when I'm falling
asleep now and I'm going into that hypnagogic state again,
in between that twilight area and between being awake in

(42:29):
the physical realm and you know, falling asleep in a
dream state, I'll get a flashback or a sequence from
a dream that I forgot about from decades ago.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, almost.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah, almost, Like that memory is attached to whatever vibrational
state I was in when that memory was forming. Being
back in that vibrational whatever the composition or that vibrational
state is, it's opened that memory and I can remember
a dream that I've forgot about for decades, but only
for that brief amount of time. It's really bizarre.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
I'll tell you. I'll tell you. I'll give you an
example of this that I think you might be talking
about this. So when I was in my all right, So,
when I was a kid, my grandmother used to babysit me,
and I forgot all about this, and i'd sleep in
her bed, and she had and I was a toddler, right,
but maybe four or five something like that, and she

(43:30):
had these side windows that I could just see the
night sky with a lot of times I would even
see the moon coming across or whatever. And I kind
of remembered that. But one time, this, uh, the police,
this police song come on and I was laying down
just listening to music, and the police came on, and
it was the song walking on the Moon, right, And

(43:52):
when that song started playing, I didn't even have the memory.
At first, I had the emotion. At first, I had
like the emotion of like, I almost remember what it
felt like to be that little and feel all these
just crazy subtle sensations that I'm not feeling as an adult, right,
But also just I felt that age again and all

(44:15):
of these emotions came rushing up, and then I remembered
that that day my aunt Sherry was walking by the bed, right,
and I kind of I kind of flew up through
the window a little bit and was kind of stretching
out to the moon, kind of trying to go up
to the sky while the song was on. And I
remember my aunt Sherry, wake me up. She's like, come on,
get up, get dressed, put your shoes on. We gotta go. Right.

(44:38):
This was an ancient memory, man, like it was gone.
But when I heard I was in the almost like
in the hypnogogic state, laying in my bed, and when
that song came on, I started feeling that emotion, and
instead of cutting it out, I kind of followed it,
like this time, I'm just gonna follow it where it's
just taken me, just the emotion, you know. Yeah, and

(44:59):
then it triggered back the memory. It's really weird because
it's usually the other way around, you know. And even
now I still can't explain the feeling of it. I can't.
But yeah, I guess is that kind of what you're
talking about? That really? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Totally.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
I think what I'm thinking is that our vibrational, our
energy field changes when we're in different levels of consciousness,
and it's almost like playing back a tape machine. If
you're back in that particular configuration of vibrational content, it
opens memories that when you were in that state before

(45:37):
have been locked away for some reason. That's what it
feels like. It's almost like like a key to open
memories that I don't seem to have access to and
every day waking existence, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Yeah, Yeah, there's store deep deep deep down in there, right, yeah,
like way deep in there. Am I a sherry like
we're talking. That had to have been nineteen eighty five
or something, nineteen eighty fo e if I was little
and she played the police records on a record player,
she had all the records, big sting fan. I remember that.

(46:14):
But yeah, I wonder it makes you wonder, like how
that just makes me wonder how the brain and the
heart work together, because when you read a cult literature,
it's all like it's just this thing that needs to
line up, and they're just reactions of a causation. But
it's so intense, man, the feeling of it. It's hard

(46:36):
to explain. I'm even having a hard time explaining it now,
you know.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Yeah, it's very hard because when I talk about it
and I'm listening to myself talking talking about it. It's
never going to do it justice, Joe. Number one, where
language is not complex enough to describe what you see,
what you experience, what you hear, what you feel when
you're doing these out of body experimentations, so on. We

(47:03):
just don't have the we don't have the wats for it.
I think one of the things you said that's really
important is that even trying to get people to how
do people get a grasp of what we are talking
about when we say it's even more real than this
as now, like what you're experiencing now in three D
waking reality, whatever that is. If you've never experienced that,

(47:28):
how can you even comprehend what someone means by that?

Speaker 1 (47:32):
You can't. That's exactly what I was thinking, man like,
when I heard your show with Liam Christopher, because I
could sid at the foot of Liam Christopher and learn
everything I want to learn about. They're call it magic
and transcendence and Buddhism and tantra and breathing techniques. And
this guy is amazing, man Like. I'm sure he's had
several mystical experiences and that, but there was but he even,

(47:58):
like I said, he admitted it later in your interview,
but I don't think he's had that etheric experience like
I had. And it makes me wonder why, Okay, well
this it doesn't matter really how intelligent and conscious somebody is, right,
because this guy is. I don't know anybody walking around
it's more aware than this guy, right, So why did

(48:20):
I have the experience? Why am I having a hard time?
But when I listen to William Buildman or Monroe or
you or other people I know they've had it. I
think about it, and I do wonder if it has
something to do with maybe past lives. I know it
sounds wu, but maybe childhood trauma or all of the

(48:43):
most frightening things happened to me when I was younger,
you know, all of the trauma in my life basically,
So like I wonder, I just wonder why sometimes some
people just don't have the experience, you know, maybe they
just don't believe in it deep down, and I don't.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Know, Yeah, I honestly do believe that. Well, it's interesting
if you look around, I mean, your channel, your shows amazing,
Your listeners are pretty much the same mindset as us.
They don't rule anything out they're interested in the other
what's beyond what we perceive. Most of the time, most people, though,

(49:22):
if I think about a percentage of people that I
encounter in everyday life that even think about waking up,
it's very small. And even within the people who want
to know more, some of them aren't prepared to do
the real hard work and experimentation to gain some notices
for themselves. So I'm starting to come to some conclusions

(49:47):
that maybe there's things that pushes down this path too.
I don't know if you feel as if you've been
guided in any way, but people when I talk to
them in a deeper level about this stuff, some commonalities
come up. Usually there's a there's a trauma background. Usually
they feel yourself zooming out from the life. The older

(50:08):
they get, they've almost been getting nudged in directions, not
completely manipulated, but they've been getting nudged in a certain way.
I don't know if you feel similar, Yeah, you're back.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
Well, not just nudged. But I've tried to go back
three or four times, like, just forget this whole path
because there because there are some things that aren't materially
and pleasurably satisfying right, that happened in your life if
you're actually doing this kind of work, right, But I
can't go back, and then I and it's when I

(50:42):
realized that. It's like I start thinking about all the
times I put I started putting all of these things together.
It's something led me to this place. I could have
ended up in a million places when I went to
that bookstore and that one book fell off the shelf,
and this book led me to that book, and that
book led me to this book. And every job that
I've ever done has led me to this place where

(51:03):
I can do this a little bit easier. You know,
if I just started doing it back then, I wouldn't know.
And all of the feed it's like a feedback loop
that's showing me I've been guiding you this whole time.
If you just listen, and I'm okay, well, how do
I listen because the voices in my head are running
twenty four to seven. Yeah, But the listening thing is

(51:24):
is the things that happen in a way that where
you're not it's not even it's almost like it's not
even in your head. It's in some other place, you know. Yeah,
if that makes.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
It going down? Oh, yeah, one going down this road,
I would say my intuition has got sharp, or I
would say the amount of synchronicities you experience have went up.
You kind of know when you're on the right track
because synchronosity seem to increase. I kind of pay attention
to that now and don't second guess myself too much

(51:54):
about my intuition and stuff. Now I'll generally go by
fuel more now, just through. But yeah, it's it's interesting
because there's been a few big events in life where
I mean, I think we spoke of air about the
incident I had in the south of France over twenty

(52:16):
years ago.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
Different. This is the different than the South African experience, right.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Yeah, this is different. Yeah. So this was just over
twenty years ago. Me and my wife at the time
were in holiday in the south of France and I
was investigating researching the Knights template and the Cathars, who
were like a former gnosticism, and I wanted to go
to some of their old castles and we went to

(52:43):
the last castle we visited was Montsaguur. We got to Montagueur,
it was starting the sun was just starting to get
low in the sky. It wasn't completely starting to set yet,
but the light was starting to fade and we were
the only people there in the car park, so we
parked the car walk up the trail up to Once

(53:03):
to Go a castle. If anybody's ever been there, though not,
it's a bit of a high cup up.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
The hill there.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
And when we were in the castle, we heard doors
closing and looked back down to the car park and
there was three people coming out of car who then
proceeded to walk up the trail. When they came into
the castle, one of them took me to the side
to talk to him. They kind of separated from the
other couple who was with and my wife who was

(53:31):
standing talking to my wife and started to talk to
me like they actually knew me. Blew my mind told
me I was on the right path, keep researching what
I'm researching. I was exactly doing exactly what I should
be doing along their lines. I'm going to specific details.
My wife overheard the conversation and she said to me afterwards,

(53:54):
that was like you were meant to meet that person.
They were talking to you like they actually knew who
you well, and this was a Dutch gay and it
was almost like something else that is going to sound
completely crazy. It was like someone else talking through this
guy who actually knew me was real wating specifically to

(54:14):
me bizarre.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Yeah, well, that dude, I think when you read these
books about initiation and stuff like that, I think any
any I believe that anybody that starts on this journey
and goes down this kind of gnostic journey trying to
figure this stuff out, it's being led there, like we
just talked about. But also that level of soul, that

(54:38):
that that higher level of soul record probably recognized you
from another life or probably just knew who you were
a period, because I do, like, man, I just I
believe in this like soul growth thing. I don't I
don't even know what you call the soul, right, it
could be a matrix program for all we know. I
don't know, but it seems like it's growing. It's kind

(55:01):
of like this hidden mystery that it's growing and recycling
and growing and recycling. And I think that you probably
met somebody that was on that same path with you
in a past lifetime or something, because I've had that
happen to me before. I've had some crazy things with people,
even relationships where I thought how could that happen? How
could that kind of connection happen? How could that person

(55:23):
know me like that. I've it's not you cleaned the
cliche kind, but it's like I knew you from another lifetime,
like I've really experienced a deeper like I know this person.
I don't know how I just know them right, But
I'm wondering, like what you don't have to give me
the details, but like what was it that he was

(55:44):
was he just talking about stuff about you being on
the path. It made you feel like, oh man, what
is this. This is a deeper thing, you know.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
Yeah, it makes you specific things. He actually knew that
I was researching without me even see anything. He knew
what I was researching at the time, and really why
I was there. Now you could say, okay, that was
the last Cathar stronghold, so if you're there and yeah,

(56:12):
that time of night being there, you're probably really interested
in it, and you know, I'm trying to look at it. Logically,
he could have put the pieces together, but he said
specific things to me, like he actually knew who I
was and from my wife at the time to come
around and actually say thatself at exactly was where you
were meant to meet that guy. He was talking to

(56:34):
you like he actually knew who you were. And again,
it wasn't til many years later that I thought the
guy I was speaking to Was it even that person
I was speaking to or was it something else? I
don't know, but there's been numerous things like that.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
You know now I did to the layman person. I'm
sure that sounds like, you know, all kinds of different things,
but this is another one of those things, man, that
I think that you'll never be able to fully articulate.
But you know it's there, you know, like you know
it's there. Your dream world may show it, or the

(57:12):
people that you run into may show you those things,
and this guy may show you this thing. But it's
I am just I just want to know more, That's
the thing. It's like, I want to know more, Like
give me the answer because I even though I don't
know how to explain this. Do you understand that there's
a part of the mysteries that in this lifetime you'll
probably never figure out. As you're breathing, you know, yeah,

(57:36):
but it doesn't take away from the drive of wanting
to discover what it is. And no matter how much
you try to ignore it. At least for me, it
doesn't go away. And I think that's that thing, whatever
that is, is pulling you in that direction on purpose
because you're growing into something. If that makes any sense,

(57:57):
you know.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
Yeah, definitely, definitely. I think one of the saddest things
in life, Joe, is that our culture, people don't even
want to think about death. And I was talking to
my my Mum's always been a really open minded person.
She's quite spiritual herself in a different way, but I
was talking to her about how most people never approach

(58:22):
the subject to death when it's such a big an
event in more life. I mean, it's inevitably that the
only definite thing we knows that that's going to happen,
but most people avoid it. One of the biggest advantages
are doing the things we've done and the experiences. Having
the experiences we've had is that my fear of death
is gone now because it's not that I think there's

(58:45):
something else. I know there's something else now. I think
that's one of the biggest benefits and why I try
and encourage people to start working in this direction. And
the more people that have these experiences, the better for everybody.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
And all, yeah, yeah, yeah, so your fear of death.
You know why I think people don't think about that
is because they know if they do it, it's going
to start freaking them out, and then they're just not
going to It's like, what's the point. There's nothing I
canna do about it anyways, But I think, yeah, like
I understand where you're coming from. It's like, yeah, there's
that's the point. There's nothing you can do about it,

(59:21):
So why don't you try to understand it? Because it's
going to happen. That process is going to happen, and
I'd like to stay even if I switch into a
whole new body and become something else, right, I'd like
to understand consciousness during that transformation. I'd like to understand
like at least what it's going to feel like, maybe
look like, or the process of it all. And that

(59:43):
obe the vibrational state and all the stuff that we've
experienced kind of shows us that this that there is
something there, right, Like there's something that's going to happen.
But then it, you know, it can get a little frightening.
Because I heard you and Liam talking about this too,
and I think about all the time, and then I
was just reading the Unfortunes book and she mentions it too.

(01:00:04):
It's like, but are we like that's cool and all,
but are we still going to keep being trapped in
this recycling state of consciousness where we forget who we are,
come back again, don't know anything, and then keep doing
it over and over. Because that's almost as more scary
to me than, in a way than just death. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Yeah, I was really interested actually on that point when
I heard you talking to your listeners about you know,
samue L and V or his modern Gnostic system, which
which is not the same as ancient Gnarsissism. It's modern
Nasis is more of a cocktail of loads of different

(01:00:42):
spiritual systems, kind of like spiritual jeek kundo. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
you know, taking good points from different systems and so on.
But I think it opens an interest in door the
whole reincarnation thing. I mean, I've been involved in gnastic

(01:01:04):
groups for a couple of years now, and obviously they
believe in the wheeliss I'm Sarah, you get so many lives,
you'll get brought back into this again if you if
you have not evolved enough consciously, if you're not elevated enough,
But there's things about that there still don't sit right
with me. You know, you've got the subjects of karma

(01:01:24):
and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
So karma, you think that's a real thing, the thing
that we made up. It's tough.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
I'm still on the fence. I'm still on the fence
because I mean and my I'm my grandparent. Now, I've
got two grandkids. I've got a grandson who's nine and
a granddaughter who's just about to turn three. My grandson
has a severe heart condition, Joe. He's had numerous operations
since he was only a few days old, heady's first

(01:01:56):
open heart surgery. And when I see stuff like that,
I think I find it hard to balance out the
whole Cama over past lifetimes, especially seeing the sort of
soul that he's got, you know, but because he's got

(01:02:16):
like the purest soul, if he were in his presence,
you would just know. So I can't imagine that from
one lifetime to the next he would be in this
incarnation with the things he's got to deal with, because
I don't think he's soul could change that much from
one incarnation to the next, looking at how he's actually

(01:02:38):
how he has as a as a soul, as a
human being. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
That that's man, that's kind of a bittersweet thing. Actually,
the children are so wonderful man, especially like you know,
I'm not a grandfather, but I could, I could almost
kind of relate to what you're talking because if you
have such a pure spirit, like, why would their soul
want to come here and experience all that? What's the point?

(01:03:05):
What's the point of it? We just don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
What do you think about Carma, Joe, what'd you think?

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
I think, honestly think a lot of it is co creative.
What I mean by that is any of these systems
that we come to believe in deep down are there
because we put them there, but not just not just overnight.

(01:03:34):
I'm not downplaying them. I'm not even taking away the
quote divinity of them. But it's almost like thousands and
thousands of years we've believed that we reincarnate into it.
It's in Scripture, its and everything. We reincarnate into these bodies.
And even if it wasn't real before we started talking

(01:03:54):
about it, it's become a real thing now in some
sense of the word. You know, And some of the
some I do like reincarnation as far as children and
some of the proofs, like I know that's real, But karma,
I think it's there because we've we we put it there.
It's easy to put it, so it's easy. It's almost

(01:04:16):
like it's easy to put a hat on of suffering. Well,
my family suffered, we've been poor, we've had ill health,
and or there's a curse on my family, or I
did this something in this lifetime. And I think I
think for thousands and thousands of years possibly we've been
at this is the only thing that explains the unfairness

(01:04:38):
of the universe, so to speak, you know, because why
else would this happen? Because life seems so divine? Right,
So why why did these things happen? But uh, I
think there's something to reincarnation. But karma, I'm convinced is
kind of an aggregoric illusion which doesn't take away the

(01:05:00):
reality of it or the experience of it. But I
don't know, it's heavy man like, because then you get
to the whole question of like what's reality anyways? Is
it just this co grative process between right, So there's
no answer to reality, But it's more about like the
power of belief belief is so powerful, man. And when

(01:05:25):
we listen to Monroe and Bulman and all these experiences
these people happen even in the astral realm. These people
take their beliefs, their addictions, their fears, and their realities
are even in that realm. Some are stuck in loops
they can't get out of. So I think it's more
about like what is the what is the nature of belief? Right,

(01:05:48):
because that's creating something for sure, And then how heavy
is that creation? How heavy is the affection of it
or the cause and effect of it? You know?

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
Yeah, I think the older I get, the more I
try not to believe anything. Yeah, through my own experience.
I think there's another podcast or that it's more in
the conspiracy realm. That's got an amazing quote, which is
belief is the enemy of knowing, because if you form

(01:06:19):
solid beliefs, you're not leaving any space to update your
your knowledge based so to speak. If you believe something
is an element of faith and it's average, rather actually know,
I would rather experiment and find out for myself. And
the weird thing is about consciousness. I don't know what

(01:06:41):
you experience through your physical body. I don't know if
you see cause the same way I do. I don't
know if you hear sounds the same way I do.
All I know is what I experience. I can't put
myself into your body and your vessel and experience the
world through your information collectors, your ears, your eyes, your
your knaves and so on. So we're really flying solo.

(01:07:03):
And that's why it's find out for yourself. And that's
why I think more people should get on this path
as a scarty path, but it's it's at a Walton path.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
Yeah, because if you think about it, right, what if
we had we don't have that many people exploring consciousness
in that effect, They're focusing on their careers, their money,
scientific projects, maybe their bodies getting in shape, maybe relationships, whatever,
and at the end of the day that one day
they're going to look up and be eighty two years old,
you know, in a hospital bed, thinking what the hell

(01:07:36):
did I do with my life? And who's next to me?
Who actually loves me and cares about me? Right? And
if man, if we can only all just think about
that for a little bit, I think the world would
shift and we'd have thousands and thousands and thousands of
explorers of consciousness in this way, and we could start
figuring stuff out and actually become this more advanced society

(01:08:00):
that everybody's trying to push towards with money and technology.
I don't think that is the answer. I think the
answer is conscious exploration. It'll answer scientific things, it'll answer
all kinds of things, or at least work with it
in that sense, you know, because we could find our
place in the universe. We could actually start figuring out

(01:08:22):
what this stuff is all about if enough people put
their minds to conscious exploration or void walking I call it,
because that's the unknown, right the void, you know. And
all we can do is just kind of express ourselves
in this place, because if we do it the other way,
that's when the suffering starts happening. You know. I'm gonna

(01:08:43):
let this place that none of us really know what
the fuck is going on here, pardon my French, but
I'm gonna let this place define who I am and
everything about me and all of my choices and everything
I do. And that's like, that's when the suffering starts.
So it's almost like it's trying to show us, hey,
if you actually authentic and explore yourself consciously, I'll let

(01:09:04):
you figure this stuff out. And you know as well
as I do that there's a mystery that's been embedded
in texts and all kinds of stuff that at first
you won't see it. But when you start asking these
questions and then you go back into this realm of
books and texts and mysteries, it starts unlocking all kinds

(01:09:25):
of things. You know, Yeah, right, like because you've asked
the bigger questions, not just believed what you've been told.

Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
Yeah, I mean that there's so reincarnation traps gaining a
lot of traction just now. I was talking about that
the other day. But when you look back at the ancients,
like you say, if we look at more than nosis,
and they've picked up from Eastern traditions, the Wiela sam Sara,
these reincarnation looks. Then you look back at the Cathars
who thought everything was an illusion and this was a trap,

(01:09:56):
it was this was not real, base reality, so to speak.
These ideas, these lessons have been with the ancients forever,
but it seems to be coming a little bit more
to the surface again. Now it seems to be gaining traction.
That whole that whole part of the puzzle. The biggest
warrior I feel is the escalation and technology. I mean,

(01:10:20):
we're looking at people talking about things like neuralink, putting
technology actually inside them. Is that going to blunt people's
ability to actually explore the way we explore? For me,
that's a big worry. Yeah, So you wonder about these
two things escalating at the same time. Consciousness is getting

(01:10:42):
more focused, but technology is ramping up so quickly right
now at the same time. Almost Yeah, maybe trying to
head it off at the pass. If you if you look.

Speaker 1 (01:10:51):
At it, you should look conspiratorially. No, I'm serious, like,
you should look into this company called Final Spark, and
these people have they literally are a funded company that
are creating microsynthetic human brains to run computers and they
give I was just on the one on one podcast
and he showed me this and I was like, now,

(01:11:11):
this ain't real. And then I looked into it. It's real,
and they're running computers, they're doing computations and doing Python
and all this stuff, and their brains they're small brains,
and this company rewards and punishes these brains based upon
the computations instead of it already known the program it
lets the brain do it by reward and punishing it.

(01:11:32):
And I'm thinking, yeah, what the hell is going on here?
Like we don't even understand there. Well, it doesn't have emotions,
it doesn't have pain, so it doesn't matter. First off,
we don't understand consciousness to begin with. So what you're doing,
even though it seems very small and fun or whatever,
it may be catastrophic, Like you don't know, right Like,

(01:11:53):
Consciousness to me is a very subtle and delicate but
massive thing that I think is going to change everything.
You know, I'm a little afraid of the mad scientists
of the world. Those people have scared me more than anybody, honestly,
not because I'm scared of technology. I love technology. I
love it actually a little too much. But the idea

(01:12:16):
of these people not being who's going to regulate what
they're doing? They're smarter than most people. Is there going
to be like a government official that goes in there
and goes, are you sure this is okay? You know,
how did they even regulate the safety of it? They can't.
So the sciences approaches them and sells them on this
idea of this is going to change the world or whatever,

(01:12:38):
and imagine all the resources we're going to save. And
the government whoever's is like, yeah, well we'll send somebody
to check on you, make sure everything's okay every now
and then they're like thanks and give me the money
and they're off putting brains in computers now for real.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
Yeah, it's crazy, it's crazy. It's crazy. What in the
science fields. You know, we've got signs and then you
get scientists and people blow them together by the different things.
But there's always a scientist to push the red button.
We've seen that obviously worth it, Yes, exactly tests you know,
it was like that's could bond off the oxygen out

(01:13:14):
of the atmosphere. But they've still done it, and they
thought the percentages were on zero, but they still took
the chance. With their always agree into its all.

Speaker 1 (01:13:23):
And there's always a scientist like that it's willing to
do that to humans too. Like I think his name
is Joseph Mendenberg or something like that. They called him
the the evil doctor from the Nazi camp. It was yeah,
that's it, and and that guy was so evil man
like and he treated it like his one big science experiment.

(01:13:45):
I'm just learning how to control human brains by this
type of torture and that type of torture and this
drug and this sexual thing and this other thing. And
then you know, as I started getting deeper into that
looking into it, our our own government had projects in
the United States that just picked up off of what
this guy was doing and started doing things to the

(01:14:05):
United States citizens without them even knowing it. And I'm like,
who's written this was back in the fifties and sixties
and stuff, and now they're trying to make brains, They're
trying to replicate brains or happ into people's minds and stuff.
It's like, I don't know, what are you guys doing
or do you even have a soul? Do you have
love in your heart at all?

Speaker 2 (01:14:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:14:25):
You know, I don't know. That trips me out.

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
That's the key, Joe, to bring it, to bring all
that back, because these are all valid points. I mean,
there's a lot of questions about World War two because
basically the West after World Warter gained all that knowledge,
all the data that the Nazis compiled during these horrible
eval experiments, and then the West could use all that

(01:14:49):
information without having to take any of the blames. So
there's loads of questions around what actually was that going
on in World War Two? With who was financing and
so on. But if we bring it back to now,
there's not enough love, there's not enough compassion. And I
think people who take the inward journey, most people who

(01:15:09):
take the under journey like we have, it's not for
selfish means. That's one thing I would say to anybody
who's embarking on what we've been doing for years is
really ask yourself why you want to experience astral progestion,
What do you want to get from it? Why do
you want to lucid dream Do you want a lucid

(01:15:29):
dreams just so you kind of have a good time
and do things in the dream world that you can't
get away with in the physical world. Or do you
want to do these things to improve yourself on a
spiritual level and then that that basically feeds out into
everybody else that's in your circle. You improve everybody by
improving yourself. So I would say to people, before you

(01:15:49):
do this sort of work, ask yourself why you're doing it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
Yeah, And I would almost rather Paul be in a
world where people are doing it for fun and instead
of these like you can tell if you get on
the internet, there's so many articles about narcissism and this
and the narcissists and the impath and this abuse and
that abuse. And if you understand cause and effect effect,

(01:16:16):
all you have to do is look back and say, well,
this was socially engineered to begin with. We were all
programmed to focus on how much money we were going
to make in the nuclear family to keep the economy moving.
So all of our relationships, everything that we do has
been based around the financial gain, not of just us,
but that's what we were sold to the dream life,

(01:16:37):
but it's really that whole program was based on a
program that ran bigger, small like smaller percentages, but massively
rich companies. You know. So when you start waking up
from this dream, this kind of mind virus, I call it, like,
you have to face all of these things. And these
things have been were there before you were born, like

(01:16:58):
their generations in your family. They're deep, right, So it
is a tough kind of journey because once you start
like experimenting consciously, you also start authenticating, and then you
don't relate to the world and all of these programs
that are being told to you all the time. But
I think like Liam was talks about and a lot

(01:17:20):
is that that's supposed to happen, Like the ego is
supposed to feel this kind of pressure that doesn't make
sense to it, and then it tries to protect itself
and does all these different things to protect itself until
the suffering starts. And then from the protecting, you know,
then the suffering, you just get tired of suffering and
at one point you're like, Okay, this is all bullshit.

(01:17:43):
I got to figure some stuff out, right, And so
what I'm saying with all that to say, if people
even just played around in the astral and lucid world
without you know, having to take psychedelics. Not saying nothing
against that, but even if they did that, I think
it would it would trigger deeper questions eventually because they'd

(01:18:03):
probably get bored and be like, okay, now what you know,
like I can do all this stuff? What does this mean?
You know? But we're not there yet. I don't think
we're getting closer some of us.

Speaker 2 (01:18:15):
But I think that actually happens. I think I think
people who you know, do just have a bout of
fund eventually do start asking some deeper questions and what
kind of techniques have you experimented with, Joe, What are
the ones that you've found to be more successful or
are you still trying to find one that that's like

(01:18:36):
the best for you at the moment.

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):
Just to get out of body, just to get out
of what you mean. The best one that I found
that works for me is waking herself up at a
late time. Like Actually, a lot of people have a
problem relaxing, So relaxation is number one. And then once
you learn to actually relax to the point where you
can't even feel your body, where you're almost disintegrating that

(01:18:59):
kind of relax station, the next trick is what to
make sure that you don't fall asleep. So the first
trick that I think would use as far as a
method is concerned, is wake yourself up at like the
witch an hour. It seems kind of scary, but this
is how I did it. The first time I woke
myself up with the witch an hour. My body's already relaxed.

(01:19:22):
I'm not all hyped up from the day and all
this other stuff. So I'll just walk up, go to
the bathroom, maybe get a glass of water, get my
energy level up just enough but not enough. To wake
myself up and then lay back down in the bed
or couch or wherever. It's actually better if you move
yourself from the couch or from the bed to the
couch right and then use hemisync or whatever method at

(01:19:45):
that point. You know, any type of audio guidance would
help any Robertman Rowe the ones that are free now,
even from the old Robert Monroe tapes or on YouTube,
but listen to a very well known author of or
guide of the astral experience. I've got some tapes that
I try to help people too, but I tend to

(01:20:07):
put people asleep too fast, I think sometimes. But I'm
working on that. But yeah, that works really well if
you're new, but once you get used to it, then
you could. The next thing I would try is just
the target experience. The target technique that William Buelman teaches

(01:20:27):
is you might actually move past that whole vibratory state
and the next thing you know, you're just out of body.
And I thought, I didn't think that would ever happened,
but it did. That happened to me, So those two
techniques have been really well for me. That worked well
for me, and right now what I'm working on is
and what I've been going through is kind of like scrying,

(01:20:48):
which is a whole different thing. It's more esoteric, but
being able to because I've read so many books about it,
but I've gotten close. But being able to have an
astral experience while I'm focusing on an image, right, which
seems almost impossible, especially in etheric experience. But through scrind

(01:21:08):
through the Tatua cards and the tarot and stuff, I've
gotten So I've had some experiences I'm like, whoa, wait
a minute, this actually might be a thing, you know. Yeah,
so that's what I'm working on. But the beginning experiences, yeah,
waking yourself up, like late at night, three in the morning,
move a little bit, not too much, lay back down,

(01:21:30):
listen to something that guides you out of body. The
more authoritative, the better what I mean by that, Monroe whatever.
And then the target technique I think you talked about
that too, where yeah, you kind of learn the esoteric
meaning of what visualization is by that I can feel it,
touch something, smell it, like really focus on the details

(01:21:52):
of it, immerse myself in the setting of an object
or something that's in your house or something, and then
go back later lay down and just focus on being
there again, and it seems like, well, that's just imagination.
Well you're about to find out how powerful your imagination
is if you keep doing it. You know, you're about

(01:22:13):
to knock yourself out of your body and go, oh,
I can't just say that's just my imagination anymore, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
Yeah, So that's that's interesting, Joe, because obviously the very
first experience I had was more riding the hypnagogic state
mind awake, body sleep, mind awake, body asleep. You know
that twilight zone where you're in between awake and of sleep.
Sometimes you can feel your dreams starting to creep in,

(01:22:41):
but don't identify with a dream. Just keep your concentration,
let your body get more relactual actual acts, but keep
your your mind alert. And that's how I had success
from the first time. But I would say the target
technique for me, which I've also had success worth and
I'm messing around with a bit again just now. It's

(01:23:02):
a combination of both of them almost because as I'm
falling asleep, I'm thinking about the target. So I'm riding
the hip nagogic state while I'm thinking about the first target.
I do the same thing as what William basically suggested
with three different targets, like one after the other. So
it's a combination of a couple of things I've done there.

(01:23:24):
I've messed around with bin oral beats a lot. I've
tried the Gateway experience up to focus ten.

Speaker 1 (01:23:31):
What do you think about that got the Gateway experience?

Speaker 2 (01:23:34):
I've got really really close to having full actual projection.
I've managed to get to the vibrational state with the
Gateway stuff. But I don't think I pursued it long enough.
And if I stuck at it for long enough, I
think if I went back to it and revisited that,
if I kept at it, I think I would have

(01:23:54):
success doing it, And maybe that would be a more
efficient way that would, you know, be more reliable of attainment.
I don't know, but baanoral beats are powerful. People should
try that. But make sure if you watch what you
get on Lane, because I make more baanaoral beats and stuff.
Because what you get on Lane as an always a bayautal.

(01:24:16):
It's not a proper record then, you know, so you
got to be careful with Now.

Speaker 1 (01:24:19):
They just play like a frequency or something and call
it bineural beats. I've been working on some stuff for
the audio store myself, and I'm like, this is interesting,
you know, to make you know, one frequency in the
left one slightly off and the right, but also make
it to where you know, it's soothing to the ear.
It's not like something that's gonna it's you know, freak

(01:24:41):
the ear out. And when you listen to them in rotapes,
they put all kinds of other stuff in there too,
not just the two tones. There's other things going on
in there. Yeah, and it's a pretty interesting thing to
get into, actually, how the audio and the synchronization of
the two hemispheres of the brain or is that a
thing that they knew about in the ancients because they

(01:25:02):
always talk about the two and one and the single
eye and things like that. But did they know that there?
Did they know about it? Seems like they kind of
did a little bit, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
Oh yeah, one hundred percent. I think we've been lied
to about history. That's and I viewed Richard be Spence
recently about Crowley's intelligence work. I don't know if you've
listened to that job. He's an interesting guy.

Speaker 1 (01:25:26):
I mean yourself, No, I had him on Yeah, Yeah,
it's interesting. Yeah, hates an interesting story. Man.

Speaker 2 (01:25:34):
He said something to me at the end of that
interview that actually made me realize how little we know
about history. He said, even even the historical events we
know quite a lot about, he said, a historian like
me only has about ten percent fact and we have
to construct the other ninety percent to make a story.

(01:25:55):
So we're way of the mark.

Speaker 1 (01:25:58):
Yeah. So, being a Golden Dawn magician myself, I wonder
like every time I talk about magic people they go craly, curly, curly, curly, curly,
curly curly, and I'm like, okay, And then I listen
to Spence and I'm thinking, what's the Golden Down a threat?
You know, like if the Nazis were the Nazis, there's

(01:26:19):
definitely some occult stuff in Germany, right, Like the Nazis
were into this stuff. The Golden Dawn was a heavily
kept secret, you know, like it was a it was
a secret order then, for sure. And Curly just comes
in there, rockets through the grades like you know, like
it's nothing, and then blows it all up. Not only that,

(01:26:39):
no one can talk about the traditional Rosicrucian magical teachings
of the Golden Down without curly Curly, curly curl. It's
almost like it was a syop, this guy coming in
here and just cutting through it, not saying anything bad.
If people are like that, are you know they follow Crowley?
I think some of his books are great, but it
does make me wonder did this guy work with intelligence?

(01:27:03):
He obviously had a thing for being in the spotlight
and getting involved in stuff like could have easily been
approached by an intelligence officer and said, hey, go in
there and report this thing to me, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:16):
I mean he's links to Theodore Royce and stuff like
that as well, and Theodore Royce was obviously in German
intelligence as well. So when you look at the people,
Crawley just seemed to be in the right place at
the right time.

Speaker 1 (01:27:28):
And I want to.

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):
Zoom out from it. Yeah, when you zoom out from
it and you look at it, it does look like
how an operative would conduct himself, you know. Yeah, he
seemed to be in the right place in the right
time too many times. I do think, you know, the
amount of right and he'd done on its own when
you look at the sheer volume of his work is
genius on its own, but there's obviously a lot of

(01:27:51):
He had a lot of egoic issues and things that
can't really be papered over. I mean, he had these faults,
many of them, but and his stuff obviously has got
value in it. But yeah, it's interesting what you're seeing about.
The Golden Dawn was a threat in somewhere because wonder

(01:28:11):
hype people involved, jah I wonder.

Speaker 1 (01:28:14):
Yeah, there was a lot of like famous people in
the Golden Down. There was a there was very intelligent
people in the Golden Down France too, it Matthers. It
was from France, right, So at the time, everybody was
paranoid about stuff. You know, if you think about it,
like everybody's paranoid about the other side and who's with who?
And you got this organization that I'm sure there were
rumors of with all these like famous people going to

(01:28:36):
and what are they doing? You know, Like I'm not
saying Curley was approached by an agent before he went
into the Golden Dawn, but if like I think Spence
makes some good points, they don't even have anything to
do with the Golden Down, But it does make me
wonder did he was, Like could he just went in
there and messed that up too, right, because that could

(01:28:57):
be a threat. Anything secret then was a three to
anybody if you think about it. Yeah, because the war
was a total deal, right.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
I mean, you don't you don't need to answer this, Joe.
But within the Golden Dawn, do they use more visualization
techniques to spark astro experiences? Because there's an author called
I think is Dussin Trakovich is Eastern European, and he
talks about actually using the lesser banishing ritually the pentagram

(01:29:29):
to to to induce astro projection. He uses that as
one of his methods, and I think that could be
if you look at it from a distant point, it's
similar to what we do with the target technique because
you're using your visualization and if you ride the hip
and theglogic state while you're doing that. Who says you
can't induce astro projection by using something like that with

(01:29:54):
your visualization.

Speaker 1 (01:29:56):
I think they. I think when I started training, I
was taught all these things to do, just like anybody else,
and the bigger questions don't get answered. But I learned
I learned later, like wait, so you want me to
draw these pentagrams and imagine them as like shiny blue bright, like,
they start teaching you about how to visualize things to

(01:30:19):
the point and in such a dense and detailed way,
in such a focused way that it's almost like they're
trying to bring the astral into the physical world actually, right,
And then later I started reading, Oh, especially in like
theosophical literature. Oh, they really are actually attempting to do that.

(01:30:40):
And so even if you don't bring things into physical
manifestation magically like a wizard, all this focus has brought
this the astral to you and the best way that
we know how as humans, right, stacking symbol on top
of symbol, correspondence on top of correspondence, and the ability
to use the imagination and focus in a way that

(01:31:01):
you haven't even used since you were a kid. And
then times that by more is going to give you
every opportunity in the world to have an astral experience. Right.
And then I'm just going to say this because I'm
not an adept, right, I'm still working through the grades
and stuff, but it's kind of obvious to me that
they use the flashing colors of the tatuas and put

(01:31:22):
them in the system of the Golden Dawn to trigger
something there right in our senses, at least visually. And
then when you learn about the vault of Adepty, the
seven sided planetary vault that they sit in, all of
the glyphs are flashing colors. So this is an astral
launch pad, right that it basically what it is. They

(01:31:43):
go in there, they consecrate everything, they get themselves ready
because supposedly you've been doing this for a long time
through the element, so you know how to do this
now and can launch themselves into I guess, different states
of consciousness based on the glyphs that they're looking at.
A whole idea of the Western tradition is to first

(01:32:04):
understand things in this physical realm, kind of transcend through it,
and then do a lot of work in the astral realm,
which that corresponds to the tree too, right, So I
do believe that's what it's for, right, Like it's a
fundamental practical way to work in the astral realm. But
then if you go back, like I said, you go

(01:32:25):
back and listen to them and row and buel them
and stuff, it's complete chaos, Like what the hell these
people experiencing is almost complete chaos. But there's all there's
still an enlightening process that happens with them through these
through this process, you know. So that's a long way
to answer your question that I don't know for a fact,
but I'm everything points that way. Everything, Yeah, you.

Speaker 2 (01:32:45):
Know, I think there's there's so many roads to the
same place. I think that's that's a message most people
should should get from us. You've got really thinking, no,
actually about because I honestly believe society doesn't want people
to be coxpiritu. It seems that way. So it would
make sense that if a spiritual group is getting a

(01:33:07):
ground swell behind them and more and more people are
getting interested, what do we see in economic terrorism where
you know, like I'll mention the three letter agencies from America,
what they've done in South American so on, you put
people in there to disrupt it from the actual inside.
You bring it down from the inside by creating you know,

(01:33:27):
conflict arguments make people's egos fight off each other, and
a lot of these spiritual systems end up breaking down
because egos, you know, they get in the way. So
you've got me thinking about that now.

Speaker 1 (01:33:39):
Actually, yeah, if you look at exactly what happened, like
there's a guy on YouTube that's a Russian intelligence agent
that teaches how they do that. They send a kind
of like a mole in there to stir up the
polarity between people, blow shit up from the inside, and
then leave, right. And it doesn't look like anything happened.
You can't blame anybody. It just looks natural. Right. But

(01:34:01):
when you look at the Golden Dawn and the series
of things that happened, and the ego it plays, and
the kind of the magical wars and even the court
room stuff and all these things that happened, it definitely
seems like somebody went in there and started poking people's
egos on all these different sides just to get them
to do that. And Crowley was that one of the

(01:34:22):
guys doing. He stirred all kinds of shit up. He
divided that thing, he divided it straight in half, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:34:29):
Yeah, fell out with everybody over tame.

Speaker 1 (01:34:32):
Yeah. And this was a place man that had high
intelligent And we know through history that monarchies and royal
families like to keep a magician, they like to keep
an astrologer, they like to keep these people close to them,
right for even nowadays they do it, but back then especially,

(01:34:52):
but if you're in power and you know that all
of these influential people say like yeats and all these
people were kind of like Joe Rogan's and Jordan Peterson's
of that day. Right, these people are what they're going
to a building and doing what? Right, Like, why are
the most intelligent influential people going in this place and

(01:35:13):
we don't know what the hell they're doing? Then there's
a war going on, you know. Yeah, of course, So
I think probably went in there and said it's a
magical order. He was fascinated with it anyways, and they're like, okay,
we'll go learn everything you need to know and then
jack it all up, like make sure it doesn't stay there.
We don't need these people talking not right now, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:35:37):
Yeah, that's interesting. I think it was. Obviously it was.
It was very knowledgeable. But I think rich of be
Spence puts forward with a great case about that a
cultus of knowing these ceremonial magicians, a cultus have known
these tracks for millennia. I mean, if you if you
look at some Kruy's walk, you know, people are people

(01:35:58):
getting nervous when they hit a bit sex magic and
so on. But if you look at sex magic or
sexual alchemy, you'll see that in your your gnostic systems.
You'll see in Eastern cultures.

Speaker 1 (01:36:09):
The whole different things.

Speaker 2 (01:36:12):
Yeah, yeah, but there's a particular exercise you've done. I think,
off the top of my head, I've not looked at
us for a long long time. I think it was
Liba four five one. It might be where he talks
about coming to the point of orgasm, but not orgasm
in so many times over the course of days. So

(01:36:32):
you're combine in exhaustion with that building up the energy
like a battery, and then basically having alter states of
consciousness through that and the gnosis systems that you looked
up with Samael and they are. They also use a
sexual alchemy where they retain the sexual energy through seeming retention.

(01:36:53):
They don't abstain from sex, so they'll build an energy
up like a battery, and then they use that energy
to help you let the consciousness. And we know, but
chaos magicians chios magicians will charge or empoe us schedules
by various methods. One of them is by using the
sexual energy to empower the sedul for whether they want
it manifests or they haven't known about us for a

(01:37:15):
long time.

Speaker 1 (01:37:16):
They Yeah, that's I think one of the keys unlocking
our consciousness. But you get into you can take it's
just like anything to me. You can take a very
sacred thing that is an esoteric fact, right, and it
works just like an orgasm, and you know, a sperm

(01:37:38):
and an egg creates a baby. You know, orgasm in
this esoterically creates what you're focusing on. Right. But when
you get deeper into it, like if you study things
like Tantra and all this, these other these other teachings
about it, they all have disagreements on some a little
bit worth the retention or this is just for reproduction,
or this is for that, but it it gets convoluted.

(01:38:03):
But I think they're missing the bigger point, which I
think the Golden Dawn was trying to show people. But
they're missing the bigger point. When you get the heart involved,
when love is involved, it becomes extremely more powerful. It
isn't just some kind of scientific thing that happens in
the body. Yes it is right, but it's the thing

(01:38:24):
that taps into the mystery of love, which is the
greatest mystery of the universe. Right. So when we treat
it in that sense, like it's this divine thing love, right,
And you'll see a lot of these partners, especially in
the Golden Down. I've even met some in Current Orders
partners that have been together lifetimes and stuff. Right, it's
almost like they're getting younger. They look like they're getting

(01:38:44):
younger almost, you know, yeah, And it doesn't seem like
it's the same. And I don't even get the same
feeling that I do in some of these other things
where it's just like, oh, just retain the semen and
if you you know, you spill or whatever. You know,
that's kind of evil and it desecrates the body and
the energy, and it's like, okay, well, yeah, you take

(01:39:04):
a nap and you re restore it again. I get
to get all that, But I think they're missing the
point of the divine part of it. I think all
the orders are so close to it, but there's something
they're missing. And that's a pretty big thing for me
to say because I'm just some redneck from Arkansas, right,
But I think these are thousands of years of teaching too, right,

(01:39:26):
But I think they're missing the point of what love is, right,
because we all know, love, When you love a person
and you go through that act, right, several things begin
to happen energetically in you, not just the orgasm, not
just the psychological thing, All kinds of things happen, a

(01:39:47):
deeper connection, things that you can't explain about this other person.
This feeling that you have one two deep deep, deep,
deep trauma that it wouldn't have came out unless you
were the with this person starts to come up, which
is natural. The con tricks they teach this, right, So
there's a real growth and healing that happens with this

(01:40:10):
connection and love that cannot happen just by looking at it,
like it's a biological process that triggers a cosmic force,
you understand what I'm saying, Like, or I could just
be getting nostalgic about the whole thing and putting my
projection on it. One of the two. That's where I'm at.
I'm trying to figure that out. But yeah, I just

(01:40:32):
I have a different feeling about it, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:40:35):
Yeah, No, it's it's it's a secret act. And unfortunately,
the way modern culture is, more and more people are
moving away from it as a secret diect. And when
I was certainly dating as a teenager on my early twenties,
it wasn't as easy, is that as now? Yes, I
had to put some walking you actually I had to

(01:40:56):
put some walk in. You don't need to see me
do anyone now, But if you tried any the supplements
show that I was talking to Liam about because I've
just started messing around just one of them. But I'm
going to pursue some of the supplements that I was
discussing William. I don't know if you've tried any of them?

Speaker 1 (01:41:15):
Which one? Which ones are you talking about. I don't
don't get the game, but you know, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:41:22):
No, I'm the same usually I'm really careful about what
I put in my body. But mug Wa melowtonin hoopazine
and galantamine galant tomine I can't get in the UK.
I thought you could, but I misread the website when
I spoke to Liam. I thought I could get it here.
I can. I've got your I've got to heard it
from the States. The Yeah, these these four supplements were

(01:41:47):
something that Liam said can can help certainly with those
who dreaming. I don't. I don't think it's the answer
for full actual projection, which I definitely it's a different thing.

Speaker 1 (01:41:59):
The biological understandings of alchemy will help this process. So
when say, when you're studying the fire part of alchemy,
well we just talked about one part of fire, which
is your sexual energy too, right, But think about it
the body being the laboratory, right. So if that's the
secret to alchemical texts, then what you eat and you know,

(01:42:23):
the intake and the outtake is an energetic process. And
you know as well as I do that your energy
needs to kind of be at a certain level for
you to have these experiences. Right, So if you can
understand not just the brain, but the digestive system too.
So this gets kind of deep and more like mainly
p hollish, But if you can understand the biological processes

(01:42:46):
on an esoteric level, how they help, right, like the
stomach being the brain of the body, and how it
kind of how it intakes things and stuff. And I
think it's a I think it's a cool thing to
study it. I just don't know that much about it
except for the alchemical side, do it, you know? So yeah,

(01:43:06):
I think it's worth exploring, man, because it might it
might enhance this whole thing. It might trigger a new
level of uh, you know, conscious exploration and out of
body experience. And you know as well as I do.
They all believe that if there was a deep ritual
they were going to do, or a ritual that took
them a long time, they would fast and do all
kinds of things before it. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:43:26):
So, yeah, that's that's so true. While what you said
what you said, there's actually a really important point should
people should think about. I used to compute at sports
pretty seriously, Jill, when I was younger. I'm obviously fifteen now,
but I really done damage to my physical body because overtrained.

(01:43:49):
I exhausted it. And you've really got to make sure
you've gotten off energy at the end of the day.
If you've got especially if you're going to try and
astro project late in the day, if you're going to
do that, you've got some energy in reserve. Basically, it's
like if you read too much, if you research too much,
if you study too much through the day and use

(01:44:10):
your brain too much, you're going to be depleted of energy.
You're going to be mentally tired. That's going to be
harder for you to do spiritual practice. If you're eating
all the wrong stuff, taking all the wrong nutrients, and
it's going to be harder for you to do spiritual practice.
If you exhaust yourself physically like what I've done, running
ultramarathons and doing all the crazy stuff I've done for years,

(01:44:30):
then it's going to leave you to the point where
your libido is going to fall. You're not going to
be as interested in sex when you're that exhausted. And again,
when your energy levels are that low, that's going to
impact your your spiritual walk. So I would just suggest
to anybody that's going to try and experiment with the
astro stuff we've been talking about, pick one practice, stick

(01:44:51):
with it for a period of time. It might take
a month, it might take two months, give up a
couple of months at least, and then if that's not working,
try something else. But also look at all that it
is in your life that actually.

Speaker 1 (01:45:02):
Really into the honestly, think there's more to you know.
I'm almost I'm more interested in the obe stuff than
I am the esoteric, even though I practice it like
on a daily basis. But I think the system of
what you're saying here, like so the three stages of

(01:45:23):
the mysteries, right, you have theurgy, alchemy, and astrology. That's
the hermetic mysteries. Theurgy. This operation under the moon right
where we're doing magic and learning about the elements is
in a sense, if you think about it, just balancing
those four aspects of yourself to get you ready to go,
to get you energetically ready to be able to do

(01:45:45):
the spiritual work once you pass that level. Right, And
so these are like more deeper, hidden esoteric things. But
it does make me wonder, Like, so the earth and
fire and all these elements that part of the study
understanding and on a deeper level would actuate you to
to take more better care of yourself. And it does,

(01:46:07):
it just does. But man, I just clicked in me
while you were talking about all this stuff. This is
why I love staying in this like lower levels of
this thing for as long as I do, because I
keep learning stuff. Right, Like, this whole thing is just
this element the magical, which is just the invocation of

(01:46:27):
the elements and learning how to balance them and what
they are, and all this stuff is really a preparation process. Yeah,
that's really what it is, a preparation for transmutation. It's
pretty crazy, man, it makes you wonder like when aylnd
rowe knew this stuff, and like William and when they
went into this chaotics, what is this stuff? What if

(01:46:47):
they understood the esoteric principle of these things? Do you
think things would have been different if they would have
even tried to apply it?

Speaker 2 (01:46:55):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:46:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:46:56):
Possibly. I mean, I've got a question for you, because
you do get told stuff in the astro that is
specifically put across in a way that is only meant
for you. And what I would say to people is
when you go into the astro and you have your
own experiences, if you're given knowledge about yourself, the universe, whatever,

(01:47:20):
but it's only intended for you. Keep that sacred. Not
everything's solely for you. But I think the spiritual preparation
work you're talking about, Joe, could be wrong. If I've
picture up wrong here, Please tell me for somebody who's
not interested at all in the esoteric work that we are.

(01:47:41):
There's a couple of problems that our society is conditioned
into us number ones. Most people have getten in erratic mind.
Most people don't know how to relax, they're overworked, they've
got too many pressures. Socially, if you're not interested in
esoteric work like me and Joe are discussing now, at
least learned to rely, learn some really effective relaxation techniques,

(01:48:03):
do some visualization techniques, do some meditation, proper meditation to
learn to clear your mind or be able to focus
on one singular thing. If you do all that preparatory work,
then getting into the as show becomes much easier, because
there's loads of little obstacles in your way that try
and stop you. Not trying to stop you getting there,

(01:48:25):
but can stop you getting there.

Speaker 1 (01:48:27):
Yeah, especially now, I mean what you're saying affects me too,
because you know, I have to keep trying to go
back and relax and keep doing these things because there's
so much brain stimulation going on nowadays that you know it,
Like there are days that I'm just not going to

(01:48:48):
get out of body. I'm not going to have an experience.
I'm going to go straight to sleep, right. But I
don't think we should ever stop doing that. That's a
good point. Relax learning the art of relaxation what it
really is, and then the art of visualization and focus
and meditation. Just putting those two things together, people should

(01:49:08):
start getting out of body. I would hope.

Speaker 2 (01:49:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:49:11):
My thing is is like, hey, if you're getting to
the vibratory state, then you know you're getting there. Right.
So even if you do like a target technique and
you don't have a full out of body experience, but
you did start vibrating, don't stop because you know you're
on the right path, like you're about to have an experience.
Once the vibration starts, just keep going, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:49:32):
Yeah, man's here's the here's a question, Joe, just I
don't know how long we've got left. But I never
mentioned this. I never mentioned this earlier. But I've been
in a lucid dreaming state quite a few times now
and actually had the vibrations come on when I've been
lucid dreaming, and it has only been lucid dreaming, but
the vibrations have been like a jump off point to

(01:49:54):
create a full projection. So people may people may of
that expedience and wonder what's going on now. I'm not
sure why that's that's always started happening to me over
the past few years or so, but that that is
a thing that seems that can't happen from the wizard

(01:50:14):
dreaming state as well.

Speaker 1 (01:50:16):
Yeah, maybe maybe I mean, I've heard about that. I
don't think I'm that's happened to me yet, but I
would love to be able to get to that state myself.
I've had I've been in an outer body experience and
then it started becoming a dream, which means that I
could I'm sure it could do the opposite too, you
know where I'm like, I was actually out of body

(01:50:37):
one time and I saw this like vision coming in
to the side that even even started feeling like a dream,
and I'm like, oh, well, I tried to make sure
I didn't want to go over there because that was
like the dream world, you know. So yeah, you've you've
heard of people that were in a lucid dream state
that have had like started vibrating while they were in

(01:50:58):
a lucid state. Would I would just say anytime then,
like if that vibration kicks in, like and just that's
when you really need to relax, Like if you're relaxing
and focusing, don't let that stray because that's it's almost
like a doorway to something else. You know. I don't
know how to explain it, but don't let it shake

(01:51:19):
things up so bad that you you might miss out
on something. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:51:22):
Yeah, it's a main field. I've actually had that a
few times happening, that's what we're saying. But it's a
main field, Joe, because you're trying not to get too
frightened in the beginning when you're learning this stuff, because
that can snap you out of it. Once you overcome
the fear, you've got the complete polarity of the opposite
of that, where you get too excited and you get
a lated it's actually happened them out and then it

(01:51:45):
pulls out the situation, so it's just remain imbalanced.

Speaker 1 (01:51:49):
The first time that happens to me, I'm gonna I'm
going to email you and tell you about it, because
I want I would like to experience that actually, like
go from a lucid state turn back to the like
a obe. You know. Yeah, because for some reason, my
mind kind of looks at it like, Okay, you're out
of body, you're in the physical world. If you go further,
you're in the lucid world. And then if you go

(01:52:10):
further you're just in a full blown dream. You're gone,
you know. But I might be looking at it on
the wrong kind of levels. It may be totally different
than that. You know, Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:52:21):
Most most of the time. Most of the time people
are just walking around even asleep in the waking state,
you know, they forget you know, a whole day can
pass and they can't remember ninety percent of the things
they've done because they've been they have not been conscious
of what they've been doing. That in all pilots or
learning to be conscious while you're awake actually helps unfolding

(01:52:44):
from the body when you attempt to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:52:47):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, man, And h yeah, I know,
I do got to kind of wrap this up, man,
but I am like, this is I just want you
to know. Man, I've I love love your podcast and
I'm going back through the archives. I want to listen
to every episode of it now, and I hope that
you just keep doing this because dude, there's so many
podcasts out there now that they all just don't you

(01:53:11):
know how you were talking about that nostalgic thing that
you feel from eighties music. Right when I listen to
your podcast, I get that nostalgic feeling that I had
when I was It's hard to explain the whole idea
of this journey is in your podcast, I got that
feeling again, and I want everyone to experience that again.

(01:53:31):
And so I guess what I'm saying is, man, is
I hope you don't quit doing this, like just keep going,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:53:39):
Yeah, I mean I'm enjoying it, and people like I say,
I'm sure you've been a massive influence on me even
wanting to put a podcast together. So I've been listening
to you for years and I'll continue to listen to
you for years. But yeah, I'm I'm looking for more
answers and that's not going to change. So I'm here
for the long run. So yeah, last question, Really appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (01:54:01):
Yeah, no problem, due front. Like you said on that
one show, it's straight from the heart, I mean it right,
So like last question, and in your logo, I see
all kinds of things. One question I ask you is, okay,
are you still considering that this possibly possibly could be

(01:54:21):
a simulation. I mean, obviously by your logo it does
seem it could be, right.

Speaker 2 (01:54:27):
Yeah, Perc. Yeah, the the longer ago on, the more
convinced that I'm that it probably has. I remember watching
the Matrix show, the Very False movie when it came
out and I walked out the cinema that day. Loved
the movie, loved the technology. It was groundbreaking at the time,

(01:54:50):
the cinematic camera work and so on. But I had
this weird feeling. I think I might have said this
to William, almost like a deja like something being on
the tip of my tongue, like it reminded me of
something I couldn't quite put my finger on. And I
had a nauseous feeling after it, an uneasy feeling like

(01:55:11):
there's another movie called Vanilla Skuye, and I think that
that's got a great metaphor for the same thing, almost
like he's he's trying to wake himself up. Basically, it's
something hinting at you that there's something you should be
waking up to. And when I walked out the Matrix
that day, I had this uneasy, nauseous, deja voo like feeling.

Speaker 1 (01:55:36):
Yeah, you're about to take off, run and start screaming textaport.

Speaker 2 (01:55:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a high possibility. I do think
it could be.

Speaker 1 (01:55:49):
Yeah. Thomas Campbell, I also talked to, had been on
the show, has a theory about that. You know, when
he was around when Monroe made him a sink, he
helped design it. And everything, and he wrote his book
My Big Toe, which is my Big theory of everything,
and he believes that it's a simulation, maybe not like
the matrix, but definitely a simulation where this it's just

(01:56:10):
like this thing of consciousness that wants it's a feedback
loop based on entropy. Like entropy just feeds back, you know,
all of these answers to It's like a data feedback
of every single question there could be, you know. And
at first I'm like, yeah, but what about love and
all this other stuff and things. You know, there's some
deeper things going on here. But he gets into it

(01:56:32):
and explains all of it, and that's why I have
no way of possibly explaining it. But I think it's
cool to look into too, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:56:39):
Yeah, yeah, I love all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:56:41):
That's my life right mine too. Man. Thanks thanks for
coming on. Man. I hope we can do this again sometime.

Speaker 2 (01:56:48):
Brother, No, listen, it was a real place for me,
and I hope I can interview you something for the
shore with that degree, because you've got you've got an
amazing back storage or so one of the people will
look up to you. One of my If I want
to eat in the heat brackout podcasters. You're definitely and now,
so no, thank you for your teme. I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (01:57:05):
Yeah, will flattery will get you a long ways with me, brother.
So now I'm just playing like I'm trying to. No,
I really appreciate you saying that. Man. Just hearing stuff
like that makes it just it helps a lot. I
really really appreciate that, man. You know, it's flattering to me,
and it's almost overwhelming to even think of because when
I hear it, I heard your podcast, I'm like this,

(01:57:27):
this is amazing, right, so, you know it kind of
it does make me feel like that I'm not just
some random Joe from Narkansas that doesn't know anything. But
then in the end that doesn't matter, right, Like that
doesn't matter, but it it just makes me feel good
to know that other people not only understand what I'm saying,

(01:57:49):
but like they want to take this. They're taking this
journey too, right, you know, and it makes me feel
like not alone. You know, I don't I don't have
the the words for it, but I really really appreciate it, man,
you know, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:58:04):
No, it's my one, it'e my one. I don't really
want to thank you. I really really appreciate that, you guys.

Speaker 1 (01:58:09):
I'm a fan of the Truth Disciples podcast and I
promise you you will be. To make sure you go
check it out and leave all the links in the
video and hopefully we'll have them back back on again
and we'll see you guys, see you guys on the
next show.

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