The Fugitive Father & CrimeCon: A New Zealand case brought to us by CrimeCon attendees||A short CrimeCon recap

Rachel and Heather begin their latest episode with listener appreciation and updates on their podcast activities. They then dive into a new true crime case emerging from Crime Con, where Tom Phillips fled with his three children in New Zealand, living off the grid for nearly four years. Phillips was shot dead by the police following a reported theft, while his children were safely recovered. The episode concludes with a Crime Con recap and expressions of gratitude to their listeners for continued support.


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Sources:
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/crime/missing-marokopa-fugitive-tom-phillips-a-full-timeline-of-all-the-sightings/
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/national/fresh-sighting-of-marokopa-fugitive-tom-phillips-in-suspected-waikato-burglary/?utm_source=zb&utm_campaign=article_link&utm_content=related
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_family_disappearances
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/532022/missing-marokopa-family-detective-spearheading-the-search-for-tom-phillips-and-his-three-children-reveals-what-he-believes-phillips-motive-is
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/tom-phillips-the-manhunt-for-forest-fugitive-and-his-abducted-children/ar-AA1Mcadl
https://www.waikatotimes.co.nz/nz-news/350098121/town-tainted-missing-man-tom-phillips
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/national/fresh-sighting-of-marokopa-fugitive-tom-phillips-in-suspected-waikato-burglary/?utm_source=zb&utm_campaign=article_link&utm_content=related
https://people.com/fugitive-father-shot-dead-police-outside-help-hiding-kids-new-photos-campsite-released-11807028
https://people.com/fugitive-father-shot-dead-police-outside-help-hiding-kids-new-photos-campsite-released-11807028
https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=piopio+a+rainforest%3F&fr=mcafee&fr2=sb-top
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2025/09/09/newzealand-Tom-Phillips-update/1631757407160/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/new_zealand/index.html



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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to Like Mother Like Murder.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
I am Rachel and I'm Heather.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
We bring you the good, the badass.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
And the crime.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
This is Like Mother Like Murder.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Like Mother Like Murder,
your favorite true crime mom Cast. I am Rachel and
I am Heather, and we are a mom cast because
we cover all things mom related, from missing moms to
murdered moms, moms who murder, survivors, and more. Yes, we've

(01:04):
got a couple housekeeping things to take care of quickly
before we get into today's episode, but please stick with
us first and foremost. We have had a few new listeners,
a few new listeners recently, and we wanted to say
thank you to anyone and everyone who tunes into this
little indie podcast that we bring each and every week. Yes,

(01:26):
thank you, big time. Thank you. These past two weeks
has been a little chaotic, a little whirlwindy.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
On our feed.

Speaker 4 (01:35):
We did a daily trial recap of Donna Adelson on
trial for the murder of.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Dan Markel, and while we were at Crime.

Speaker 4 (01:45):
Con she was found guilty for her role in that crime,
which occurred over a decade ago. I don't think this
is the last we will be talking about this crime.
We will see slowly over the years more and more
people have been held accountable and convicted of their role

(02:08):
in this murder and murder for higher plot.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
She is the fifth, so we'll see what happens more. Yeah,
the guilty verdict, like Heather said, came in while we
were at Crime Con on Thursday evening. We had just
arrived in Denver and we were getting ready for the
kickoff party. So what do we do. We run up
to our hotel room, jumped on the mic really quick

(02:31):
to finish off our coverage of this trial and bring
that guilty verdict as quickly as we could.

Speaker 3 (02:37):
To you guys.

Speaker 4 (02:39):
Yes, and you know, we are very interested in hearing
our listeners feedback on that trial coverage and the recaps.
We want to know if you tuned in daily, was
it informational? Do you want us to do that again?
Do you like the trial coverage that we brought let
us know. Is it some thing that you want us

(03:01):
to do in the future.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Heck yeah, Okay. Another thing is we are doing a
giveaway which I will explain briefly here, but you can
find all of the details over on our Instagram page
and we released an audio explaining it that you can
click and listen to for all of the details. But
it is a giveaway give away where you will be

(03:24):
able to receive two journals. One is called the Mastery
Journal Master Productivity, Discipline and Focus in one hundred days
and the other is called the Podcast Journal Idea to
Launch in fifty days. These were given to me by
a friend, Ashley Grant, who is the host of the
Bloggy Friends podcast, amongst other things in the pod world.

(03:47):
So go to our socials or go listen to that
audio to get all of that information for this giveaway.
We are very excited for it, and a huge thank
you to the famous Ashley Grant.

Speaker 4 (04:02):
And then last thing, I know you're all ready for
us to get into the episode, but I just have
to give a little context for how we actually came
across this case. We only really learned about this case
a few days ago when we were at crime Con,
So we we're gonna recap crime Con and how it

(04:24):
went this weekend briefly at the end of our episode,
just so that if you don't really care to hear
all about our adventures, you don't have to, but it
will be there at the end if you are interested,
as well as a very extended and more in depth
version of our Crime Con shenanigans over on our Patreon.
But our case today was a case suggestion that was

(04:47):
actually brought up to us while we were there by
two amazing ladies that we got to talking to while
we were there at Crime Con and Rachel and I
are literally kicking ourselves right now because we did not
catch their names. They did have the most amazing accents. Though, yes,
if you are listening to this, they did start following us.

(05:10):
We told them who we were, they followed us. Please
reach out. We want to hear from you so badly.
But they shared a little with us about this case
because we were talking to them about Hope Houghton's case
on Philis side and all of the problems and red
flags of the system and unfortunately what happened in Hope's case.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, and so we're sharing Hope's information and they pull
up their phone, they pull up a story on their
phone and they share it with us, and the information
is on a father who was on the run for
years with his three children in New Zealand. This conversation
happened on Sunday at crime con with these women. Monday morning,

(05:54):
I get to the airport to fly back home. I
sat at the airport for about eight hours because I
had a night flight. So I opened my phone and
there it is a break in the case these two
women were talking about. It was crazy. I didn't think
it was real at first. I thought it had to
be something else. I screenshot incented to Heather immediately, and

(06:17):
that is what we're gonna be talking about today. So

(06:45):
I won't be sharing the names of these three children
that are included in two day's case. They are plastered
all over the news. They are on every news article,
but for us here today, we will be referring to
them as Jay M and E. A few of the
news headlines on Monday read New Zealand police detail slain

(07:07):
fugitive father life on the run, Her children were just
found safe after four years on the run with fugitive father.
New Zealand's fugitive father on the run with three children
in wilderness, believed to be shot dead by police. This
all started back in fall of twenty twenty one, which

(07:29):
is the last known time the mother, family, friends and
the rest of those who knew J. M and E
saw them in person other than their father. And I
want to add here that this is still developing. More
will come out, and so today I will just be
giving an overview of what we know and then will

(07:51):
most likely at some point get more into it with
all of the details in a future episode. Back in
fall of two, twenty twenty one, in September, this was
the first time that this father, Tom Phillips, took off
for an extended period of time with his three children.
The first time Heather so the one that we read

(08:13):
about scary. Yeah, And at this time he actually had
custody of his children. Him and the children's mom were
not together, and from my understanding, she didn't have custody
of them during this time for reasons I have yet
to find out. But when they first took off in
September of twenty twenty one, when they were reported missing

(08:35):
and said to have been camping in the bush, which
I'll talk more about in a bit, the children did
live with Tom. He was their sole custody provider. He
was homeschooling his three kids and his home was located
in Ottorahanga in New Zealand. Let me take a moment

(08:56):
to explain that I will be saying a lot of
names that I am not very familiar with. When it
comes to the location of these places, I will do
my very best to pronounce them. If I say them incorrect,
like incorrectly, please feel free to let me know with
a direct message to my Instagram, not a comment or
a review, with an audio recording of how you're supposed

(09:19):
to say it. Yeah, because otherwise we can't fix it
if we don't actually hear it. I would love to learn,
and like I said, like I did try to look
up and listen to the little pronunciations of things, right,
but still it's they're like robotics, so it doesn't help.
I'll do my best to just not say them. But

(09:42):
he's gone. He's gone. He takes off with the three children,
and a full on hunt for Tom and j M
and E took place. His vehicle was found on a
beach in the Waikato region, right outside of Maracopa. Question.
Yes he has custom Yes he's homeschooling them, Yes he

(10:04):
takes off with them. Yes, why is he being hunted down?
I mean that's a good question. And one of the
things that I feel like are discussed in articles discussed
in comments.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
I went down a rabbit hole.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Is there are people who believe he should have never ever.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
Been searched for or looked for.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
It came down to the fact that he is not
the only family member. There are other family members, and
they were concerned for their wellbeing. It wasn't something that
he detailed, the fact that hey, I'm going on this camping.

Speaker 3 (10:43):
Trip right now.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Okay, so there was a reason you have correct, Okay, gotcha.
So it was just like, hey, we've been trying to
get a hold of him and the kids for you know,
a week.

Speaker 4 (10:57):
We haven't heard from them. Can you try to do
a welfare because we're concerned for their safety. Yes, that's
where my understanding is. Okay, all right, that's understandable. I
was just like like, I'm like, look, he has custody,
he had, you know, he can go camping with his kids,
right I don't.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
I mean, obviously I don't know any more of that,
but like, okay, you'll definitely hear more with everything. But
that is, like I said, there are a lot of
people who still believed that what Tom Phillips did was
his right.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
He should not have been searched for and.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
Okay, so there's a there's a divide, and that divide
I think comes before you hear a lot of other
stuff that happens. But just like anything else in life,
you're gonna have the people who you know, feel one
way or the other because of their beliefs, because of
their morals, because of their situations, because of how they
grew up, whatever it may be. So that's why right

(11:53):
now I'm gonna just bring the facts and bring those
you know, the information that I have found, and then
you can you can believe what you want to believe.
Like I said, there will be more to come at
some point. At the time that the car was found,
Catherine or Kat, which is the ex and the mother

(12:14):
of the children, said in an interview that she believed
the vehicle was a decoy. He was smart, and that
he left it there to throw law enforcement off so
that he could not be found. They did a full
on search heather with ground search, drones, helicopters, dive teams,
all of it. Everything. Then two weeks later, Tom and

(12:37):
the children just show up at his family's farm. He
was fine, the kids were fine. He said, they went
camping and it was you know, I'm assuming it's one
of those detoks no electronics, just to clear his mind.
At this point, this is the first time in relation
to what we are discussing that things turn criminal. Tom

(13:00):
Phillips ends up getting charged with wasting police resources, which
okay he did in fact. Do you know he's out
there and there's like part of me that's like, well,
he had custody and he was out there. They didn't
have to, but you know, the other family is concerned,
so then they go and it's a little all over
the place. Now. A discussion that has came up in

(13:24):
my research is COVID and how that may have played
a factor in certain situations. And I'm not sure how
much I'm going to get into all of that, but
one thing that is factual when it comes to the
global pandemic. The court date that Philip was originally given
in November of twenty twenty one ended up being pushed

(13:45):
back to January of twenty twenty two, So I mean
it only got pushed back two months. We've seen and
we've talked about, so many cases and stories where people's
court cases are pushed back a.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
Year, if not even more.

Speaker 5 (13:58):
So.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
This was something that was calm and during that time.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
For sure, but Phillips would never show up to that
core case because before that date came, he had fled again,
vanished with his three children, and for nearly four years
he has been a fugitive on the run until days
ago September eighth, twenty twenty five, when a hail of

(14:26):
bullets let loose and Tom Phillips was shot dead in
front of his oldest child. It was one thy three
hundred and fifty eight days that Tom, J. M. And
E were on the run. There's different theories of how
they made that happen. For so long, four winters this
took place. Was anyone helping them? Did they have people

(14:49):
that they knew bringing them money or supplies, maybe even
people that they didn't know. There were alleged sightings of
Tom at different times. One of the most talked about
one is that he allegedly robbed a bank. And let
me confirm the bank was robbed at the time.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
It was just.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Alleged that it was whether it was him or not,
but that he was with a young accomplice at this
time who was believed to be the eldest daughter. Also,
around the same time, if not the exact same day,
they went to a supermarket and they took items, stole items,
they tried to flee and actually he had shot. He

(15:28):
had fired a shot at one of the marketplace workers
who was running after them. This was in twenty twenty three.
One of the detectives on the case, whose name is
Detective Senior Sergeant Andy Saunders, said that Tom Phillips was
facing a range of charges at that point, from aggravated robbery,

(15:49):
aggravated wounding, and unlawful possession of a firearm. And I
want to read a quote from Saunders during the investigation,
which was quote, at the heart of this. At the
heart of this are three children who have been away
from their home for four years. Their well being is

(16:09):
our main concern. And I can only assume or speak
on my own behalf. But I think that the people
in Maricopa or Waikato, or New Zealand in general, everywhere
there knew of this case and wondered why they didn't
just search harder and bring these kids home. I can't lie.

(16:30):
Like when we were standing there with these women, you know,
I'm standing there listening to them talk about it, and
my thought was, how in the world does this go
on so long? Well, we literally asked them.

Speaker 4 (16:42):
I was like, New Zealand's and islands, yees, can't you
just like.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Like search harder?

Speaker 4 (16:48):
I mean, I'm I'm obviously I know nothing about search
and reconnaissance and like, you know, tracking down a fugitive
or anything like that. One thing they did bring up,
which kind of makes sense, especially because how what we
were talking about when we spoke with them is like
they were saying, like, well, they want to be especially
careful because they don't want him to harm the children

(17:12):
in any way if he gets desperate enough.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
And which is a very good point that they raised.
They were like, they don't want to spook him, is
basically what they what they said. And so I was like, yeah,
that makes sense, but four freaking years, like that's that's
that's crazy, right, that's insane. Yeah, And and four years
with sightings not a huge place to search, you know.

(17:35):
So it's like, as I was doing all of this,
like that to me is such a judgy statement from
from where I'm sitting in my chair with a computer
to look stuff up. But it I swear it comes
from a place of cary because I'm just like, how
can you not do more in these situations? And and
I'll get to some of the the why they couldn't
do more because earlier I told you I would explain

(17:56):
the bush because this is where Tom and his three
children were believed to be living all of this time.
So Tomjay and J M and E were believed to
be living off grid in the vast way Koto region, Okay.
Tom was raised in a way that survival skills were
embedded into his being. This is who he was as

(18:20):
a person. He knew how to grow, he knew how
to hunt, he knew how to make shelter, he knew
how to clothe his children, all of the things necessary
for that off grid living, that lifestyle or beyond the
run lifestyle. The bush. It's believed, based on the potential

(18:40):
sightings throughout the years that Phillips and his children were
not stationary. You know, if they're going around and they're looking,
it makes perfect sense that they're not stationary for long
amounts of times, that they didn't have one site that
they hid out at the entire time. But like I mentioned,
know he was described as this survivalist and where he

(19:03):
was ultimately found was in Piopio, New Zealand. To me,
looking up this region this area, I would describe it
as having large mountains, rainforests, caves, Okay, water sources so

(19:24):
much in this area. I was gonna ask because like
when they say the bush, yeah, I'm you know, forgive
my ignorance New Zealanders. I'm like, is that like a jungle?

Speaker 4 (19:36):
Is that like a for I'm guessing like jungle based
just like geographically where New Zealand is, but I'm like.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
Jungleish mountainish regions.

Speaker 4 (19:46):
So you're saying like caves and mountains, so I guess, yeah,
like if they're if they're constantly mobile, right, they're being
able to kind of you know, and if he's if
he's trained in and you know, survival, he can be
trained in like hiding out like and being able to,

(20:08):
you know, avoid being spotted.

Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:11):
The crazier thing is, like, I mean, it's one thing
to do it by yourself. It's another to do it
with three children.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah, definitely, definitely three three young children. It's it's like
I'm not being naive to the fact that I know
nothing about this area other than what I've searched up,
you know, and I would be interested in hearing how
someone else would explain it and you know, we might

(20:39):
get someone who says, no, it's not mountainous, or no
it's not rainforesty, or no it's not this, but we've
got to remember he was not stationary. He went to
so many different areas. And when I do post about this,
you know, episode on our social media, there are maps
where they have pinpointed where they have searched or where
they have had the sightings and stuff like that, and
you see that it is all over this coastline. So

(21:02):
I mean, if maybe one place doesn't have the caves,
maybe the other does, or you know, that kind of thing.
But the point that it comes down to is unless
you go in and intentionally explore the deep depths of
this area, you wouldn't know anything about it. There's trails,
there's waterfalls around that you can get to, but not

(21:24):
to the extent of fully entering you know, what was
known as the bush. It is highly believed, especially in
articles after the fact, that Tom Phillips had help of
some sorts. This is only alleged right now, but law
enforcement have started releasing photos of the makeshift shelters and

(21:47):
have commented their beliefs that Tom had help, you know,
assessing accessing all of the things that he had, as
well as help with the children from the same detective.
Detective Saunders says, quote, we are currently looking at a
number of items at the site aside from the burglaries

(22:09):
that we are not able to link to Tom. It
is a parent that he had outside help end quote.
So there's certain things that they know maybe he got
from marketplaces. In these photos. You see sprite cans, you
see water jugs, you see many different things. You also see,

(22:30):
you know, one of the quads or the bikes that
were one of the stolen items, stuff like that. But
it really does have you question. I mean, that's where
my brain would go, is how often was this person
going in and out of town or was he meeting
someone and gathering supplies from that person. J. M and

(22:53):
E were eight, seven and five when they were taken
into hiding. They are now twelve, ten and nine and
on Monday's some pivotal years.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, that is that's rough.

Speaker 3 (23:08):
It is. It is.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
And on Monday morning, September eighth, at two thirty in
the morning, a witness called the police and said that
two people were spotted stealing from a PGG Rights and
farm supply store in Piopio. She called law enforcement and
explained that they were in farm clothing and wearing headlamps.

(23:35):
Trigger warning for what takes place if you do not
want to hear it, fast forward. I don't know two minutes.
Tom Phillips and his eldest daughter were the two stealing
from the store and had gotten on their quad bike
to leave. They were stopped by the police by road
spikes around three thirty in the morning, and the loan
officer on site was shot in the head with a

(23:57):
rifle by Tom. Backup officers arrived immediately, and the officers
returned fire, killing Tom immediately. This entire shootout situation is
devastating to think about because it never should have gotten
to this point. But the hardest part for me is
that a twelve year old little girl was standing right

(24:18):
there and witnessed it all.

Speaker 4 (24:25):
That is just like after spend, like the trauma. She
just spent four years with the only company being her
two siblings and her dad, And her dad was the
only adult, her only source of comfort, probably other than

(24:49):
her siblings, But she's the eldest. He's the only source
of you know, sustenance. He's the one getting them food.
I mean she's obviously helping him, but like he the
one providing for them, he's the one helping with shelter.
He's the one doing all of this. And granted they're
on the run, but she's twelve, like she's she started

(25:10):
eight and now she's twelve, Like you know, that's your
only that's the only provider h and then and other
than whoever might be helping, but he I don't know,
she probably doesn't even know who that person is, or
even if she does, like maybe she barely saw them,
and then to see him shoot somebody like hurt somebody else,

(25:33):
and then to see him then be brutally and then
to like your whole world everything you've known for four
years just like get com Oh and my god, we
have to we have to remember and kind of think
of it in different ways right now because we don't

(25:55):
know everything, right, But what I explained at the I
mean with him having custody of the kids and them
being with him like that was their father, so right exactly,
don't like what we don't know what they were exposed
to off grid living out there, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
We don't know their stance.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
Or where their headspaces with all of this. They just
know the one person who was taking care of them.
And then you know, I don't know the life they
lived out there, so I'm not gonna say, yeah, it
was yeah a bad flip side. It was bad that
he was on the run with them, one hundred percent, right,
But maybe he did protect them, maybe he did care
for them. We don't know that situation yet, and.

Speaker 3 (26:33):
That is one of the things.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
And they could have been the Yeah, it could have
been the flip side. It could have been torture for
them right there, and he could have been the opposite.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Of carrying out there for them.

Speaker 4 (26:41):
Who knows, right, But like at the end of the day,
I mean we see it all the time with with
children who regardless I mean, if their parents was an
abuser or you know, or I mean we talked about
this too over the like with the we just talked
about this on the Kindred Lakari episode. Their parent is
an abuser, or maybe their parent is you know, you know,

(27:06):
addicted to to has substance use issues. You know, regardless,
that's your parent. At some point, they were a provider
for you, whether that was you know, a good provider
or a bad provider. They're your parent, and so you
have this attachment to them, especially as a young child,
for better or for worse.

Speaker 5 (27:24):
And you know, like that is just so traumatic and
oh my gosh, and now like the I mean, now what.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
Does she do?

Speaker 5 (27:36):
She has to go back?

Speaker 4 (27:37):
And like at twelve years old, she's already been you know,
for seemingly the last four years, she's probably been the
largest piece of stability for her young siblings, and now
she's gonna be the only piece of stability at twelve
years old. Who's gonna help her in this situation? You know,
like she's gonna almost become like this the facto parent

(28:02):
probably for these two younger ones. And then like, who's
going to be there for her in this situation?

Speaker 3 (28:09):
I'm just.

Speaker 4 (28:12):
And I thank god the other two didn't witness it,
but like for her to, oh my gosh, yeah, I
can't even there.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
My heart is breaking.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
Yeah, it's devastating to think about that. And it's hard
because I truly believe that we as people are born
with love in our hearts, and that is why children
are so innocent, That's why they're so able to just
outpour that love. Because I feel like, if anything, we're

(28:43):
born with that's what it is.

Speaker 6 (28:45):
And so.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
I don't know, we can go on about this one
hundred times over, but back to this, you know, and
I do want to add, I don't want to go
back to this. Well, I do want to say, you know,
there's more, but you know, the mother has already made
statements and they they you know, hopefully they're coming back

(29:07):
to love. Hopefully they are coming back to a community
who is ready to pour over them in whatever way
they need, right.

Speaker 4 (29:17):
And so that's the key term. I'm really glad you
said that, in whatever way they need, because if what
they need is space, like a protective space, then that's
also what they need to give yep, right, Like they
need to meet them where they're at, and they you
know that wherever however that is. If that's cuddles, then sure,

(29:38):
cuddles it is. If that's giving them space, then.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
That's what that is as well, right Exactly, So, after
that horrific incident took place that Jay had to encounter,
she ended up having to be the one to take
the officers to their camp to find and show them
where her siblings were. So when they went out there,

(30:04):
they rescued the children, they took them back and right
now they are currently in the care of the Ouranga Temriiki,
which is the ministry for children in New Zealand. This
is a tragedy that is devastating for all first and foremost.

(30:24):
You know, I'm so thankful that the children, the children
in the story were safely found and rescued, because we
talk about it too much that that's not the case.
I love that they are together, which is exactly where
they need to be, is.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
With one another.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
For this police officer doing his job and being shot
in the line of duty heartbreaking, and after researching and
reading the articles, I'm sad for the Phillips family. His
sister and mom make plea after plea after plea for
him to come out of high and to come home
and that they would figure it out and everything would

(31:04):
be better. It sucks. It sucks in every single way.
And like I said, we don't know. I don't know
if they're making those pleas and they're the ones helping.
But from the what I know as of right now
and the knowledge that I have right now on this,
I hurt for all of them. Even if they were

(31:25):
the ones helping and they were still pleading for him. Publicly, right,
I also could kind of get that. I mean they
also probably look, look, if we're not helping him, those
kids could be not surviving because they're literally out in
the middle of nowhere. And if he can't get what
he needs to help those kids survive, potentially he's going

(31:48):
and robbing someone and those kids could get hurt. Yeah,
you know, so, like I also see that. I mean,
it's unfortunate, but what are you gonna do?

Speaker 4 (31:56):
Fine, I'm just not gonna help him, and then those
kids could potentially to death or get put in a
dangerous situation because he's willing to shoot somebody or rob
somebody right just to get them fed.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
You know, like.

Speaker 4 (32:09):
It's I mean it's obviously it's it's rough, but you
have like they're thinking about the kids in that situation.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Oh my god. Yeah, that's brutal. It is. We still
do not have all the details on the family background
and what the situation was like back home before all
of this, right with Tom and Catherine. Like I mentioned
in the beginning, I don't know the custody situation of
why she didn't have custody at that time. All I

(32:40):
know is that he had custody in the beginning, and
then he lost the legal custody of his children when
he took off with them in the first place, causing
you know, that full investigation and those resources to be used.
And then he intentionally avoided court by fleeing, and then
he has the alleged robberies, alleged aggravated assaults, and much

(33:00):
more over those four years. So even if in his
head he was trying to protect these children for whatever reason,
this isn't the way to do it.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
And it didn't did tragical, no.

Speaker 4 (33:13):
No, yeah, it's it's definitely one of those things where
it's like, you know, there's clearly.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
People who cared about those kids.

Speaker 4 (33:28):
Yeah, and even if I don't know, like we said,
we don't know for whatever reason that their mother didn't
have custody, We don't you know, know the full background
of him as well, but he there was clearly something
going on in his head where he should not have

(33:50):
had custody either. Those kids weren't they didn't deserve this right,
They didn't deserve.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
To have to go through this.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
And and it doesn't it doesn't stop here, because yes,
the children are found, Tom Phillips lost his life, but
now the detectives or the investigators are looking into who
helped them, who played a.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
Part in their hiding. Was it the family, you know?

Speaker 1 (34:19):
And if it was the family, therefore they're lying and
hindering the investigation as well. Was it the community members
who believed what he was doing was right in one
way or another or was it strangers who really didn't
understand what was happening kind of at all?

Speaker 4 (34:35):
And so that I mean, was it like a stranger
who was like, oh, there's a guy with a kid
on the side of the road. And I mean it's
hard to say, right, I mean New Zealand. I mean,
like you said, probably all of New Zealand knew what
was going on, but it's like, hey, this Skuy's on
the side of the road with a kid.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, here's some frickin food. I mean, who wouldn't do that?

Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, right, it's in because at the end the day,
I'm gonna give that person food and then I'm gonna
call the cops and say, hey, look I saw them,
but I'm not gonna.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Let those kids go without, you know.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
And yeah, definitely what a situation, you know, Yeah, what
a situation?

Speaker 4 (35:17):
And what are the odds that literally we're talking to
these complete strangers at crime con. We're you know, we're
talking about a case, a related case, and then they
tell us about this one, and less than twenty four
hours later, you're sitting at an airport and that this

(35:38):
I mean because we will We're literally like, oh, we
need to look into this because we mentioned that. Obviously
we see a lot more US cases, but we're always
interested in, you know, cases outside the US, for sure.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
Huh for sure?

Speaker 1 (35:52):
Man, I am you know. That is really all of
it that I have on this right now, and there
there is more. Dec There's so many other things that
I could have brought up as well, but it's like
I tried to just bring the information that was not
one like one sided or like someone speculating or whatever.

(36:13):
This was the facts of what I could bring. Well,
after the investigation, we'll have a lot more fact facts
right that we can get into. But I do also
want to acknowledge that, you know, there is more. If
you're local in the area and you're listening to this,
you might have more information that I didn't share here.

(36:33):
And I am very open to reading and exposing myself
to more of what happened. So if you do have
those things, and you're looking to share it and give
us a bigger picture of everything. Email us at like
motherlike murder dot com, or you can send us a
message on Instagram at like Underscore Mother Underscore like Underscore Murder.

(36:57):
But yeah, ultimately the children are all alive. I hope
they're given the time, help, resources, love and everything they need.

Speaker 4 (37:05):
Yeah, yeah, I think, And you know, there's obviously you know,
we have the Internet, but we don't have access to
like local print or anything.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
Like that.

Speaker 4 (37:16):
That you know, local New Zealand New Zealanders may have.
So yeah, we and we would love your insights if
if you're local know anything connected. Uh, it's it's always
important for us to get to get feedback as well.

(37:37):
And we're less familiar right with with not only geographically
what the bushes, but also the way things work. How
does you know is custody the same over there? You know?
Is you know what what's the protocol? So any insights
would be greatly appreciated, and we will definitely be doing

(37:59):
a follow up in terms of how this progresses, because,
like Rachel said, there's not a lot of factual evidence
out yet, but the investigations ongoing and I'm interested to
hear from Rachel when she has more. I'm going to
try my hardest not to spoiler alert, right, I know,

(38:21):
anything for myself because I am very interested to a
understand what if any information is available on the background
of him.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
And his.

Speaker 4 (38:37):
Mental state going on and and be what were the
legal precedent and kind of goings on in terms of
the custody and like how how that came to be
and will this, you know, drive any changes in terms

(39:00):
of how it occurred in order to make that not
happen again. I mean, it doesn't sound like this is
something that you know, this is obviously an abnormal case. However,
if there was a red flag that could potentially yeah,
could it, you know, could that result in a change

(39:22):
in a legal system that could keep something like this
from potentially occurring in the future.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
So, uh, that's what I will be looking out for, Rachel.
I'm going to avoid any Internet's spoiler alerts.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
That way you can bring me all of the latest
information on this case.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yep, sounds good.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
So right now, you guys, if you if you came
here for this specific case, we are done talking about
Tom Phillips his three children. This is where that portion
of today's episode does end. Now, at the beginning, I
did mention that we are going to do a little

(40:04):
crime con recap right now, and it's going to be,
you know'na, We're gonna talk about quite a bit of stuff,
but we are going to do like a full crazy,
probably two hour gab sash about Crime Gone because we
have so much to say, but we are going to
kind of keep it down to just the stuff that

(40:25):
we did. That kind of thing right here right now.
So if that's not what you're here for, goodbye. We
will see you guys next Tuesday for next week's case.
And if that is what you are here for, it's
Crime Gone recap.

Speaker 3 (40:37):
Baby. Oh yeah, they're doing it.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Yeah. The first thing that I'm gonna ask you is
zero out of ten, how is your experience eleven? Eleven?

Speaker 2 (40:48):
I was waiting for that answer. I was like, say it,
hurry up.

Speaker 4 (40:51):
It would have been twelve had my feet not hurt
so badly at the end from all of our walking around,
and had I not lost my voice. Yeah, but I
feel like, also that was kind of worth it. It
was definitely worth it, totally.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
It was worth it. We would do it, you know,
when when it's worth, when you would do it againderful? Yeah,
that's what it comes down to. So what about you?
Oh absolutely eleven hundred okay for for so many reasons.
So I am gonna I'm gonna start for a moment
and just say do it. I come back, came back.

(41:32):
I came back, not come back from this year's crime
con feeling so motivated, so changed in a way of
uh huh, how can I help?

Speaker 3 (41:46):
What can I do? Where do I belong in this community?

Speaker 1 (41:50):
There's so many things that I just feel so differently
than when I arrived. And it's like, I feel like
we have been like growing and you know, so learning
as we've gone. We were very open about that as
we've shifted throughout you know, our three years of doing this.
But I feel like as much as we've done, it's
just one of those things where when you are amongst

(42:13):
certain people, it's incredible, it's incredible, and it makes you
want to do either the right thing or change up
things you're doing. I you know, I'll say it right here.
I never I never plan on stop being the funniest
human alive. Like that's still going to show in certain
aspects of what I do. But being victim focused.

Speaker 3 (42:34):
Is you know something that.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
You hear a lot of people talk some shit about
crime Con and why would you go there and idolize
and it's not for the right reasons and all this
kind of stuff. And I can one hundred percent say
you're bat shit crazy if that's how you feel.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
I agree.

Speaker 4 (42:54):
I think that my coming out of this year's crime Con.
Obviously we had a great time at crime Con last year,
but I feel.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
One hundred gazillion times more.

Speaker 4 (43:11):
Amazing after this year's crime Con, and I just had
so many more high points, I think, and I just
did not realize how much better it could be being
able to be there and have a good time with
my best friend. Yeah, but also feel as though I

(43:34):
was there representing like Mother like Murder and Mom cast
productions from a victim centered advocacy point, and it made
that trip not only you know, like, okay, we're you

(43:54):
were here, We're at crime Con, but like this is
why we do this, okay, And it just made the.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
Trip feel just so much bigger.

Speaker 1 (44:10):
Yeah, there was a there was a purpose behind the
mission of what we were doing when we went there,
and I feel like, you know, Heather and I. We
had talked about this months months months ago when I
when I brought up to the fact, or brought up Heather,
I brought you up. Heather brought up the fact to
Heather that I wanted to pretty much not claim I

(44:36):
don't I don't know the right word, but I said,
our Crime con mission, our True Crime Podcast Festival mission,
will be to help Brandy Morey Poles and Hope putin.
I said, I don't know exactly what that looks like yet,
but that is my goal here. And you know, Heather,
always being the supportive, down human she is and completely

(44:59):
a ring in every single way, shape or form, was like, duh,
of course, that's exactly what we need to do here.
And so we've we've had meetings. I've had numerous numerous
sit downs with Brandy and Hope and ask them pretty much,
what can I do for you guys? And that has
evolved in such a insane way of Boston True Crime

(45:24):
Podcast Festival. I had Brandy right alongside me Crime Con
Heather and I, we had Hope right alongside of us,
and it was all about, here's what they're trying to do.
We're trying to make connections we're trying to find resources available.
We are going to back these mothers one hundred percent.
What else is mom cast going to do other than

(45:44):
back these mamas?

Speaker 4 (45:45):
And I love them so yeah, and I think that
we The other thing that I really got from Crime
Con was, you know, meeting other people who almost was
like it was like the same thing. It's like we
started a podcast because hey, I love our podcast, and
then you slowly morph into like, now what do we.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
Want to do with this podcast?

Speaker 4 (46:11):
Right? We didn't start our podcast with like this idea
that Okay, we're gonna end up you know a few
years from now interviewing these moms and realizing we're gonna fucking.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Help you guys, like we want to take you as
a mission, and.

Speaker 4 (46:27):
We're gonna start like we're gonna we're gonna do this
damn thing, you know, which I mean we were maybe
naive in that, I think, but we literally met other
people who were like, oh, same. We we have this
interest in true crime, and the more we got into

(46:51):
these stories, we realize like, oh my gosh, some of
this stuff is like it literally boils our blood, and
then some of this stuff makes up cry. And then
we're like you know what, Hey, how about we do
something about some of this stuff that makes us mad? Yeah,
and makes us sad, and then hey, you know how
we can help? We can do this and and you know,

(47:12):
we met other people that literally did the doing the
same thing, and I've been doing it for decades long.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
Yeah, and I think and I think.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
That go ahead, go go go there, Okay, I'll go.
I was gonna say, I think that one of the
things about you know, our journey and so many others
is the fact that we, yes, we didn't know exactly
where this was headed, and we still don't know, and
there's so much that it's, like I've said it before,

(47:41):
where I feel like this imposter syndrome or who am
I to be helping these moms? You know, And it's
it's crazy because we don't know all of these things,
we don't know all of the answers for them. But
we're amongst a community of people who come together for
the greater good and it is a beautiful community to
be a part of.

Speaker 4 (48:01):
Yeah, I you saying that just gave me chills, because
we're we'll talk about this session and we'll probably fucking
ball doing it.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
Yeah, but we went to one session in particular called
missing Babies Stolen. It was put on by someone, oh,
stolen babies. It was called stolen Babies. And I'll just
talk about this one moment. It was put on by
someone who works with Nickmack and basically at one point

(48:34):
the whole room fucking stood up and just gave hugs.
We all stood up and gave hugs to.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
This family on stage.

Speaker 4 (48:43):
And that that moment will forever be ingrained in my
brain as exactly that it's a like minded community who Yes,
there's an interest in true crime because people find these cases,

(49:03):
you know, interesting, but it's not like a like a
morbid curiosity of like ooh, this is you know, to
to to satisfy some itch of like it's interesting. But
then it's also like a well and now we're it's
interesting and I'm interested in now I want to support.

(49:23):
Right then, you know, the person right before had said, well,
and like, let's do a call to action here. If
you haven't yet submitted your DNA as a possible way
to find these stolen babies, do that next, because this
is it's a small thing you can do to help.
And if you haven't, also just like posted like joined
the Facebook group and posted the missing person's.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
Fly do that next? And you know you can?

Speaker 2 (49:48):
You can?

Speaker 1 (49:52):
I mean we literally just talked about a whole episode.

Speaker 4 (49:55):
We spent a whole episode talking about a case that
we hadn't known about, and these wonderful ladies from New
Zealand had come all the way to us and told
us about this case from their home because we are
like minded people sharing about like minded stuff. And I

(50:16):
think that you know, it isn't just about entertainment or
like the everybody there has a foot in a true
crime world, but it's not for an entertainment thing.

Speaker 1 (50:35):
It's either for knowledge sharing or for advocacy.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
It's for I mean, we bought a freaking board game
and is it entertaining, yes, But also it was literally educational.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
It was teaching.

Speaker 4 (50:50):
Kids and adults alike. Do you know that this is
a crime and you shouldn't freaking do this? Or do
your children know that.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
They do not have to answer this question if they
are asked by a principle or you know what I mean?
Like and it's so it's it's it's important to understand that.
And I just I think that we're going to be
going to events like this, and I think it's important
that like we're gonna get more and more and more
out of it every every year, and I am just

(51:20):
so glad again to Rachel, I mean, did you think
when we're like when we were like fifteen years old, literally,
like this is what we'd be doing definitely, not like
twenty years from now. Like this is insane. It is insane.
It it is, it's absolute insanity. I do want to
I want to touch on something though, that you mentioned,

(51:41):
because you said, all everyone at crime con we are
not naive to the fact that there are bad people
out there and that maybe there were a few in
attendants that are there for the wrong reason, and right,
we can't. We can't be blind to that fact of
some people are shit, some people are shit, And did
they go there because they're like I don't even know

(52:03):
what they're My brain doesn't process the way their brain processes.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
Is the only way I can say that.

Speaker 4 (52:08):
Let's hope they learned though that like, right, you can
come here with your shitty brain, but that's not what
this is about.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
It's not what it's about. And it comes down to
the fact that there was more good, way more good,
The most amount of good in this place of wanting
to be there. We sat through a session where victim
people read their victim impact statements. Okay, how can you
get up there and read that to us? We sat
through You went to a cult one. I went to

(52:36):
a Nancy Grace one. We went to stolen babies. There's
so many different that you went to the canine one
where you got to see that, Oh my gosh, and
I'm as I didn't, so you should be. I tried
to really think where and why I was not a
part of this, and I still don't.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
Know you were helping.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
I don't want to help anymore.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
I want it to be about me.

Speaker 1 (52:59):
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was like, where were you?
Because I was like, Hope and Lauren were with me,
where are you?

Speaker 3 (53:04):
Well, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
It's so frustrating to me, you guys, I don't know anyways.
That's kind of where where we stand, how we feel
our experience. One other thing I will say, for any
of you guys that are listening that we are in
love with, there is such an amazing community of podcasters, professionals, men, women,

(53:28):
everyone that we got to meet, got to see again,
got to hug their necks, got to laugh with got
to all of these things, and it's it's incredible. It's
incredible to meet these people who are experts and what
they do.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
M H for sure.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (53:52):
And I think the other the other shout out I
kind of just want to give right now to our
listeners is thank you for listening, and because by listening
you do help us get there. Oh yeah, this is
I mean, this is a little indie podcast. We don't
you know, we're not Wait when you listen anyd we

(54:18):
wish right when you listen to our podcast and you
listen to those ads, or you become a Patreon member,
or if you're those very few people that are subscribed
via Apple or whatever, you.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Do help us.

Speaker 3 (54:35):
So much.

Speaker 4 (54:35):
Hey for a few dinners while we're at crime Con,
or you know, pay for those extra flyers that Rachel
had to print out because we ran out, you know,
passing them out to everyone when we are at crime Con.
And and so we do want to thank you for that,
because not only by listening to us, are you helping
us spread the information we want to spread when it

(54:57):
comes to the cases that we are covering and the
mothers that we are advocating for. But also it does
help us get out to events like crime Con and
get the word out about these cases and that we
that we are trying to, you know, raise awareness for
So I do want to say thank you and from.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
The bottom of our hearts. Yeah, it does mean a
lot to us because we.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
Are you know, we're we're just doing this. We didn't
realize what it would turn into.

Speaker 4 (55:26):
We we we're still growing, we're still navigating it, and
who knows, maybe in another three years it will turn
in you know, like well, I don't know, like we'll
have another couple different podcasts in our mom cast productions.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (55:40):
But thank you listeners, because we wouldn't be at like
things like crime con if if you know, although maybe
we would because we're.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
That stubborn and we still make it happen.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
But the amount of times I said I don't have
money for that, I can't do that, I don't have
money for that, it didn't matter.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
Figure we figured out how to be there and uh,
Chef's kiss ye. But you but you guys do help
with that, you know, and we we I thank you,
thank you for that because it does it does make
a difference. So hell yes, hell yes.

Speaker 3 (56:14):
All right.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
With that said, go into that giveaway that we talked about.
If you need all that information, go listen to the
giveaway audio because that gives you.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
All of the details on that.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
And we will talk to you guys next Tuesday.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Until then, be a badass, find something you want to
put your heart and soul into and fight for and
tell us all about it. All righty, We will talk
to you next time. Kay, Love you bye, Okay, love
you bye.

Speaker 6 (57:03):
Looking for your next true crime podcast and consider checking
out my show, Truly Twisted wherever you get your podcasts. Hi,
my name is Alicia Watson, and each Thursday, I will
be bringing you a twisted story that is always victim
focused and fact based. My goal is simple, bringing a
voice to the voiceless, So be sure to follow me

(57:25):
on Instagram and TikTok at It's Truly Twisted. And for
more on my show and other amazing creators, visit fireeyesmedia
dot com. And in the meantime, remember you are wanted,
you are loved, and you deserve to be here and
I'll see you there.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
Fireeyes Media