September 17, 2025 • 47 mins
How do you lead a struggling team to resilience and success with heart and discipline?
This week, we welcome John U Bacon, bestselling author, speaker, and former coach of one of America’s worst high school hockey teams, for an inspiring conversation on leadership, optimism, and building winning cultures.
John shares powerful stories from his coaching journey, emphasizing:
Resources Mentioned:
This week, we welcome John U Bacon, bestselling author, speaker, and former coach of one of America’s worst high school hockey teams, for an inspiring conversation on leadership, optimism, and building winning cultures.
John shares powerful stories from his coaching journey, emphasizing:
- The critical importance of leading by example and practicing what you preach
- Why optimistic leadership grounded in values beats focusing only on results
- How building trust and giving ownership transforms teams and individual athletes
- The value of patience, resilience, and celebrating progress in long-term culture change
- Lessons from legendary coaches like Bo Schembechler and Herb Brooks
- The delicate balance of discipline and empathy in effective leadership
- Why letting your team surprise you creates breakthrough moments and success
Resources Mentioned:
- Book: Let Them Lead — johnubacon.com
- Upcoming book: The Gales of November — available October 7.
- Podcast and speaking engagements — johnubacon.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better
podcast network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the podcast to
get you there.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
You can find out.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
More at teechbetter dot com slash podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Values of our victories, that's one of the keys. And
because we define those and we're control of those, we're
control of our values, control of our behaviors. Every day,
if you don't believe, no one else is going to
find a way to be optimistic. And when you need to,
you go back to the behaviors. Are the behaviors getting better?
Your job? Get out of the prediction business. We do
(00:33):
this way too much in leadership. This guy's gonna make it,
this guy's and not. How do you know?
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Do you want to be a leader in a constantly
changing world? Our emerging leaders look different, come from various
backgrounds and from all different age groups. Leadership is changing
and it's hard to keep up. But the good news
you can be a leader too. You can be an
e merging leader. Welcome to the Limitless Leadership Lounge, a
(00:59):
try generational conversation for emerging leaders. Come spend some time
with us to discuss leadership from three angles. The coach
Jim Johnson, the Professor, doctor Reneuma Kareem, the host, John
Gering a monthly guest, and you get in on the
conversation on Facebook and Instagram, and be sure to follow
(01:19):
us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Speaker. So come on
in and make yourself comfortable.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
It's another weekendside the Limitless Leadership Lounge. This is what
we call a try generational conversation for you, the emerging leaders,
because we got three generations represented here.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Coach Jim Johnson, doctor.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Numa Kareem, and I am John Gary. Today we're joined
by another really cool guest. Coach brings on some of
the best guests. I love the people that Coach connects with,
and John, you Bacon, is no different. So let's dive
into his story. He has an incredible inspirational story. Also
his book Let Them Lead, and an upcoming book he
has coming out next month as this is released. So
we got a lot to talk about today. Coach, go
(01:57):
ahead and introduce John and let's dive right in.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
I've been chasing him down to get him on our podcast,
so I appreciate that opportunity. John's worked for nearly three
decades as a writer, speaker, and also I was a
college professor at University of Michigan. He's written seven New
York Times bestselling books. He won the Golden Apple Award
for Teaching Excellence at University of Michigan. He was called
(02:23):
by was it good Morning America? He was the ted
Lasso and we're going to get into the book.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Let them lead.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
But John is a terrific guy. We're really looking forward
to have him. He's got too many accolades that we
spend half the time talking about his accolades. John, without
any further ado, welcome to the Limitless Leadership Lounge.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Coach, Thank you very much. I'm not about you far
longer than known about me, thanks to mister mac owain,
of course, your celebrity bah player from two thousand and
six video many times. I had just finished coaching out
in the high school hockey team myself at that time,
so I was the perfect sweet spot for that story.
And as I said to you off air, I knew
when I saw the story about Jason, and of course
(03:04):
the artistic manager who goes in there and drops a
bunch of three point bombs and the teammates go crazy,
the crowd goes crazy. It's a cool moment. No doubt
about it, and got a lot of national attention. But
I knew that's the chair in the top of a
very good Sunday that takes years to build. That moment
has not happened overnight and does not happened just because
of one kid, and God bless Jason. But that's a
(03:27):
culture that builds that. So when I saw that, coach,
I knew that I wanted to meet you someday. I
didn't think I would, but here we are to be
on your show. Thank you, John.
Speaker 5 (03:37):
We're really looking forward to it, and let's get delve
into the ted lasts, so let them lead. It's a
book I'd gift, and there's only a few books I
gift right now. I really enjoyed it immensely. He said
a lot of things that made a lot of sense
to me, because obviously I was a long time coach.
So talk about just start sharing the story. I know
it's about hockey and I'm a basketball coach, but a
(04:00):
little bit about the story in just a couple of
points about how you turn this as you labeled I
think the worst high school hockey.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Team sadly accurate at the time. So anyway, yeah, and
it is a hockey book, but it's not a hockey book.
And those are pictures of my guys on the wall
that my parents gave me, and some other hockey paintings
and so on. But my editor was a late great
Rick Wolf, just passed away a couple of years ago.
He did Rich Dad, Poor Dad. He did Jack Welch's
From the Gut I think about sixty or seventy year
(04:31):
Times Business bestsellers, the gold standard in the business. And
he'd been friends for a while since I had done
Bo's Lasting Lessons with him. That's BeO Schemeckler's last book,
and that was very gratifying for me. But his mantra
throughout this is your point is that, damn it, John,
it's not a hockey book. Hundred of times. He's coached
a lot of baseball himself, so it's not a hockey
(04:53):
book in any real sense. That's about leadership. And I'm
no basketball coach, certainly despite coaching my kid's third grade
team last year to mix results. But anyway, the team
I took over Annaberheron River Rats, and I'm not making
that mascot up. We are the only ones in the country.
I'm pretty sure in two thousand they were zero twenty
two and three, and a few non sports fans out there,
(05:13):
the zero's where the winds go. The ranked is the
worst team in America. Incredibly, out of twelve hundred and
fifty six teams. They hire yours truly the worst player
in school history to post them. That's where the ted
Lasso part comes in, because this guy's got no business
being the coach. Basically, I still hold the record for
the most games coach in a here on uniform eighty
six with the fewest goals zero. I played forward, by
(05:36):
the way, it didn't leave a lot to love. Worst
player in school history, worst team in America. Yeah, this
should work. What do you do? You get help? And
Warren Buffett at a great line, if you think of
the smartest guy in the room, get a better room.
And it's your job as the head coach not to
be the smartest guy in the room. It's your job
of fee out who is and take their advice. In
(05:56):
my case, that's Al Clark of Culver Academies, Brillian coach.
He still has the record, I believe, for the most
wins of any high school coach ony seventeen. He says
five words today, just like me his big premium speeches.
This would be a good game to win.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Thanks, but whatever your personalities, it's fine as long as
your word is good. It's what I find his great
advice to me. You got to make it special to
play for Huron, and the best way to make it
special is to make it hard, because the opposite of
whatever else is telling me. And we're terrified now in business,
I know you, Jim give a lot of corporate speeches.
I do too. They are terrified at twenty five year olds.
(06:32):
They're trying to lower the bar, bean bag chairs and
gambucha machines and casual fridays in tacco Tuesdays and so on.
Nope'll you will get people who like those things. That's
the problem. It works. Tell my heart, the job is.
If the job's not hard, why are they paying you
worse hard? That's what the money's for. So you start
off with that and you keep your expectations high. Second
(06:54):
step was to build trust with the players. So high
expectations build trust. Third step was the scariest, and that
has let them lead. But that's when third year, for example,
I let them coach an entire game. We had a
fourteen game winning streak by then, very good for US.
Two straight losses to our arch rivals, every coach gets paranoid.
I did too. I let the seniors coach in the
(07:16):
next game against the ranked team, and I didn't say
a word the entire night. They picked up the lineup,
the strategy they changed on the fly in hockey, which
means while the pucks and play first, center comes off second.
Said it's got to go out. You got to organize
all that. I let you guys can handle up. We
got ten seniors, so they did, and they beat a
ranked team six nothing. Everything we've got to say in
(07:37):
that book is simple, and Jim you already know that
he's not one complicated idea. None of it's easy. That's
the trick. Don't confuse simple with easy. What's hard about it?
Every single thing I tell you to do takes courage
and things like leaving your best player in the parking
lot because he's two minutes late for the bus. All right,
(07:58):
every coach stops that bus, but not out Clark, my mentor,
and not me.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
Discipline, and John, this is one major thing. I think
a discipline is everywhere, so from sports to real life.
Discipline plays a major role in leadership. One thing I
found it very interesting that from reading your book and
your bio, no wonder you're called ted Lasso of this
(08:23):
Fiel and one major area of ted Lasso was the
optimism in his leadership. So how did you keep that
optimism even when you know that this is the team
that you were leading? And how important is to be
optimistic when you're leading?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
A great question. I've been asked hundreds of questions by
now maybe thousands probably on this book since it came
out in twenty twenty one. I don't think I've ever
gotten that one, which is pretty hard to hit him
where they ain't. Is we really killer? Once said one
hundred years ago in baseball, you just did. I hadn't
thought of in those terms, But it is true. If
I was not optimistic, no one else is going to be.
So that was true throughout. Sometimes I had to force myself,
(09:03):
no doubt, to try to find several linings when you
get slacked thirteen to two or seven to nothing, and
all that happened that first year, especially how you frame this,
I'd say a few answers to that one. I always
focused on behaviors not results. Now we paid attention to results.
We had fifteen stat lines for every player who played
that night, and this is pre analytics. We were ahead
(09:25):
of the game as twenty players. That's three hundred spreadsheet
boxes we filled in after every game, and there was
printed and put on the wall before practice the next day,
and all the kids went right to that wall. They
all wanted to find out how they did and block shots, hits,
shots on net, whatever. But I focused on behaviors so
I could always say. When we got smoked thirteen to
two by Trenton, the best team in America arguably, I said, hey,
(09:50):
values of our victories, that's one of the keys. And
because we define those and we're in control of those,
we control of our values, control of our behaviors. Every day.
I don't control the refs and don't control pucks bounce
funny ways, and so do shots in basketball, goalies do
funny things, and soda shooters. You don't control any of
that stuff. You can do everything right and lose entirely
(10:10):
pop So do I get mad if we lose a
game like that? No at all, even thirteen to two,
I said, hey, two guys are here on hockey work hard,
support your teammates. Did you guys do those two things tonight?
And I said, yes, we did, Yes, you did, all right,
And God bless him. They're the best team in the
state and they beginse thirteen to two, but they quit
working for ten goals. They quit high five in each
(10:31):
other after ten goals. You guys kept working the entire game,
supporting your goalie after all thirteen goals. That's impressive. We
define ourselves. So you walk out of here with your
head held high because this was heroic. So one key
to be an optimistic is you define the terms. All right.
You framed the argument. That's one thing. Second of all,
what Herb Brooks, the great Olympic coach from nineteen eighty
(10:53):
And I know Jim knows that name, and probably you
guys too. Mircle on ice. That's Herb Brooks C and
I became friends in the process. Brilliant coach, just brilliant
that it was not a fluke. Yeah, it's a once
in a lifetime game. But like that Sunday, it was engineered.
And I said before one of our big games a
year later, we're playing Trent again. Now we're much better.
We're sixteen eight and two we're playing trent in the
(11:14):
regional finals. And they called up Herban and said, okay,
and tomorrow night we're playing the Soviets, and I'm pretty
sure we're the Americans. That's about the odds here, What
do you got? And I had my schematics out there
of all the rinks and all the strategy, and first period,
second period went by shoting the bench. When do we
start dumping it in all this other hockey terminology, none
of it, he said, Johnny, with this Minnesota accent. Above all,
(11:36):
you gotta believe. If you don't believe, nothing good can happen.
If you do believe, anything can happen. And then he
chuckled and said, believe me was the architect of the
greatest upset in the history of sports. And then I
thought about it. He's right. And just because we work
hard toport our teammates and believe in ourselves and each other,
just not guarantee when to beat Trenting. I can absolutely
(11:58):
one percent arantee you. If you don't work hard, support
your teammates, and believe in ourselves and each other, we
don't have a chance. And so John or Jim or
if you guys buy a lottery ticket. I can't guarantee
you're gonna win the lottery. The odds are still against them.
But I can guarantee you what ny percent. You don't
buy a lottery ticket, you ain't winning the damn lottery.
(12:19):
In our business. Back to optimism, I hadn't thought of
in those terms. So now you got me going on this.
But in our business, what if you're a leader in anything,
corporation to school, hospital and so on, Your lottery tickets
are hope, belief, faith, confidence, And no, I'm gonna add optimism,
and you can buy them first. And if you don't
buy them, they ain't gonna buy them, because why would
they if you don't believe, why should they believe? All
(12:39):
these tickets? And hopefully after a while they start buying
for them themselves, and then they start buying them for
each other. And now seniors are buying them for juniors,
and juniors are buying them for sophomores, and now this
whole thing's going. That night before that Trenton game, I
left a locker room to the senior because I always do,
and I said, seniors, your room after my speech about
Herb and all that, and I don't know, they said,
(13:00):
But man in stick steel door, places packed as always,
Detroit News is there, Detroit Free presses, there is a
big game. The band is playing allowed it's gonna be
two thousand people. I could hear these guys yelling to
that door halfway down the rink. So whatever's gonna happen
that night? And I told my coaches this, I don't
know what it's gonna happen to night. No one does.
I can tell you one thing. Those guys are done
being scared and they believe, and we'll see what happens next.
(13:23):
We lost three to two and a nail bier, but
their fans gave our guys a stand innovation. But the
point is that's fast. It took two years. I thought
it could take five. I underestimated the kids. That was
my ventilation. So belief is if you don't believe, no
one else is going to find a way to be optimistic.
And when you need to, you go back to the behaviors.
Are the behaviors getting better, the behavior getting better, then
(13:47):
we're gonna get there. And part of it also is
probably vision that I know we're ultimately and I know
we're gonna get there, all right, so this is our path.
Our path is not this. Our path is this setbacks, problems,
It's all gonna happen. But if you don't hold the
North Star in your head, no one else is going to.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Another takeaway from your story is that it did take time.
And all good things do, all good cultures do take
time to build. And in this world we often see,
like in the world of professional sports, a coach wins
Coach of the Year of the NBA and gets canned,
or a coach loses in the conference finals and gets canned.
Then business we see the same thing. You're not able
(14:28):
to produce the results in year one and we're moving
on to.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
A new leader.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
So I'm not saying that's always bad because results are important, right,
But what kind of belief does an organization have to
have in a leader to instill in them that opportunity
in that time to get the ball roll and then
establish that culture.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
My advice from mild mentor both. Shimmeckler, the old Michian
football coach. He hit a shot at the Wisconsin job
before the Michigan job and didn't like the vibe of
the interview, and I thought the whole thing was a
bit of a circus. This would have been nineteen sixty
eight and he left the room, got in a pay phone.
That'll date me. Hall's The idea is is take my
name off. Don't take a job if it's a bump
(15:12):
and pay, prestige title, all that stuff. So what if
it's not set up for success or a chance for success,
don't take it. And I think oftentimes, by the way,
it's harder, I think in publicly held companies because they
have to give returns every quarter and the stackholders watch this,
and the board watches this and so on. I've seen
(15:32):
great leaders Mary Barra, General Motors, Bill Ford, Jute Ford,
and Jim Hackett, who endorsed my book, great leaders at
that level. But I think it's harder for the reason
you cite. So find yourself a situation where you're going
to have time to do what needs to be done,
and without that, it's not going to work. So that's
one thing. Second of all, if I'm in charge of
(15:52):
a coach, I'm gonna do the same thing I would
as a coach, which is, are the behaviors getting better
the team listening to this coach. If the coach loses
the locker room. I don't know about you, coach, but
I don't know if I've ever seen anyone get it back.
So do you still have the room? We're in a
ten game losing streak. My first year. I'm telling you
right now, John, that was the best coaching I have
ever done. And it's true because we lose a trend
(16:15):
thirteen to two starts a ten game losing streak. Who
kept on getting close closer to all those teams. No
one gave up, no one pointed the fingers. What am
I asking for? We're cards for your team as we
did it, and we played trend again and now seven
to one. Okay, that's like twice as good. Right, that's progress.
So you work on the behaviors. But man, the need
to go that fast, don't fall. If you're doing it right,
(16:36):
it will not happen that fast almost ever. So zone
that out. Be patient. Jackie Robinson gets the major leagues
and goes on a bad time for a hitting drought,
and his coach stayed with him.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So it was all about like process related goals instead
of always having the result related goals.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
When your goal setting, and we had goal sets, the
team picked the goals of the seniors picked the goals.
We had ten goals. Ever, ye, it's in the book.
I would pick twoks to I knew they didn't care
about highest grade point and fewest penalties. That would never
make their list. Yes, and God blossom for it. But
everything else the seniors were in charge of, and they
would have team meetings. They would last two or three
(17:14):
days after practice before they picked the eight they wanted.
They took it very seriously and once they pick those, okay,
these are your goals, all right. And that's a big
difference to me saying you should do this, you should
do that. If I was running in a sales department.
I think it's a big mistake almost every sales department makes.
They give you your quotas, No, have them give you
their quotas, and they will raise the bar higher than
you would surprisingly perhaps, and in the process they feel
(17:38):
far more committed. They own that's your goal, not mine.
So yeah, but still, as far as I'm concerned, I
watch process, I watch behaviors. First of all.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
Something that you gave me really good clarity, because I
felt the same way after I read your book about
my program when I was coaching, was that I would program.
Why it was different, he said it was a two
season was we cared deeply about our kids, but it
was very challenging. But we're the only one in our
area that was precis six o'clock in the morning, so
(18:09):
it was not easy to play in our program. But
they did know that we cared about them and we
had very high expectations. So it would just give me
me clarity on that was really good. But I got
to delve in. I've got so many questions, could be
here forever. But because I'm old by people, I'm curious,
what did you learn from bo Schemblocker, because I remember
those days very well with Woody Hayes and Bosh by
(18:31):
Ohio State Michigan.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Can you share a little bit of ball what you
learned from Bull? Sure, I learned a lot of things
from Bow and you are right by the way, and
one of the things that what the book will do,
I'll give you some good ideas that help and some
new ideas perhaps, but well also for people already doing
I think a very good job. They're often knowing who
buy the book, by the way, guys like you who
already did a great job. But it will reinforce why
you're doing what you're doing, and remind you why that works.
(18:55):
Six o'clock in the morning. I love that. Find out
who wants it right away? My classic Mischigan I just
said about eight thirty on Friday mornings because they hate that.
It ruined my morning. But at Room there's two great
He wants to be in this class quickly. And that's
a separating point. You can say that, hey, we do
this and others don't. No one else is going to
us five thirty for this we are who's the point
of pride? I think whatever from Bo is not what
(19:18):
you'd expect. The book is called Bo's Lasting Lessons. It's
still out there, still in print. Warren Buffett endorsed it,
which is the only book he's ever endorsed. I think
for Bow, now for me, trust me, but what you
would expect listen before you lead. Bow's reputation was well earned.
Big temper, throw his heads in the sideline, get penalties
for yelling at RAFs, grab players by the face, mass
(19:39):
to yell at them, including Jim Harbott, future coach of Michigan.
You can't do any of this anymore, of course, but
he was a phenomenal listener. And when I tell people that,
they don't believe it until you talk to his players.
And he had a strict rule ten through twelve Monday
through Friday during game weeks, the coaches go into the
coach's room to go over the game plan, practice plan,
(20:00):
and so on. The doors literally locked. And both said,
if if my boss calls Don Kennam, the great ad
at Michigan, if he calls, take a message, If his boss,
the president of the university calls, take a message, If
the President of the United States, Gerald Ford, a close friend,
if he'd been an MVP at Michigan, bod campaign for him,
(20:21):
and so on, if he calls, take a message. And
I did what you guys are doing on WHOA, I said,
you can't be serious. He goes Bacon. It was my
job to speak to the leader of the free world.
It was my job to beat the Buckeyes. Okay, that
is a focused individual. And I had a chance to
interview Gerald Ford after that, and I couldn't resist bring
(20:42):
this thing up. And he wasn't very happy about this.
I'm pretty sure it was true. Listen, I can get
Bresnif on the phone thirty seconds you can't get a
bunk couch. That seems preposterous, but it's true. But if
you're a third string walked on from Sulin, Ohio who
couldn't sleep the night before, If you're wondering why you
on the team and why you knock yourself out and
do all these things and so on, then you need
(21:03):
to talk to bo Lynn Cook and Mary Passing. His
great secretaries were instructed you don't ask him what it's about.
If it's personal, they won't tell you. You don't tell him
to come back the next day, because you know what,
he couldn't sleep last night. If you tell him to
come back the next day, he ain't coming back. She
ain't coming back. All right, You are to open that
door without any hesitation and tell me that a player's
(21:24):
here to see me. That's all I got to know.
So once I hear the tumbler's turn, I know it's
got to be important. And Jim Hackett was one of
those guys, third streen guy, demo team center. His dad
was an All American Ohio State. His brother I think
it was a hot shot either at Ohio State or no,
no that I am. I can't remember. But anyway, and
Boud come out and he talked to you eye contact
like this, not shoulder surfing. Now we're going to watch,
(21:45):
not fumbling the change in his pockets. Lock in and
after you're done spilling your guts. He would wait ten
seconds before he said anything. And that's genius. And I
had to learn that that was not natural for me
at all. It is so powerful, so simple, so powerful,
and so hard to do. But when I've spilled my guts,
(22:05):
and big tough guy Jim Hackett center on the football team,
he's near tears. Bo waits and says, Jimmy, is that it?
He goes. Yeah, I'd say he goes. First of all,
thank you for coming down here. If he didn't come
down with your problem, I wouldn't know your problem. We
might lose a great man like Jim Haggett. Can't have that.
And great land from Colin Powell. The day that your
(22:26):
people could bring their problems is the day that you
could be in their leader. And when they have a problem,
what do you do? You seek out what the laziest,
stupidest person with no wisdom and no power to help. No,
you see out the opposite. If they have sought you
out with your problem. You've already checked several boxes on
their list. They hold you in very high esteem. That's
the measure. They won't tell you that, but they just
(22:48):
did with their feet. That's why they're knocking on the door,
all right. And I guarantee you when they come to
you their problem, you'll be at the most inconvenient time
of the day. That's it's not scheduled two o'clock. I
hear someone can plain about their job. Nope, not in there.
But you got to find the time. And if you don't,
somebody else will. And when somebody else does, that person
owes that person and not you, So you find the time.
(23:09):
So the biggest thing I learn from bo is how
to lessen John.
Speaker 6 (23:14):
You made me feel a little bit better because I
was always a little bit frustrated because everybody calls me
when they have a problem, from colleagues, friends, the persons
who are working with me, the volunteers, and I would say,
why me, why are they always calling me? And I
take time to listen, But sometime it is stressful, like
(23:34):
taking everybody's stress on me and then trying to find solution.
But you made me feel better that they are checking
those lists that I am worthy to listen to their problem.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
That is our because you're so good at it, work
gets out and you can hear.
Speaker 5 (23:48):
More track cofident One of the questions I have.
Speaker 6 (23:52):
We know one are the characteristic of a good leader,
but I have also experienced so many toxic leadership around us.
So from your experiences as a point of view, can
you give us some pointers on how to identify toxic
leader or what not to do as a leader.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
How to identify them? Usually after six months and probably
three months, the whole thing feels wrong. It probably feels
wrong for a reason. If you're willing to work hard,
if you're willing to suport your teammates as I say,
and that's not good enough, then something's probably off. I
think this is happening more and more. You have tons
of books on leadership, podcasts is on mine too, yours
two and so on. But I think the CEO culture,
(24:31):
the CEO gets Twitter times what the other person gets,
and get the gold jet and everything else, the little funkyness,
sum earn it and some are great. Yeah, I'm not
saying by any means. I've seen many great CEOs. Most
was up dealt with our great in my opinion. But
you see a lot of crazy ones and division heads
and so on. It boils down to this. I can
walk into a company and within about five ten minutes
(24:52):
figure out I was gonna make it who's not? Pretty quickly?
Then I'm batting about ninety five percent. I don't care
about your resume. I don't care where you want to school,
which your major was, which your great point is we
all get fooled by resumes, we all get full by interviews.
Happens all the time. All right. I asked three questions.
Who are your mentors? Who do you call up when
you got a problem? Who's going to call you right back? Two?
Who are your peers? All right? When you have a problem,
(25:14):
you need to cry on someone shoulder? There you go,
renew you're in apparently? Third? Who is people underneath you
will take a bullet for you? If you transferred, who
comes with you? And if you don't have answers to
those questions, you're going to go down hard and fast
because you have no allies left to take to break
the fall. The person's going to fail when they become
the leaders. Oh wow, And Abraham Lincoln said it, and
(25:36):
it's brilliant. If you want to test a person's character,
don't give them adversity. Most of us can handle that. Frankly,
give them power because most of us can't. I mean,
your power is almost absolute. Do you abuse it? Right now?
I'm in charge, I have to know all the answers.
I can show no weakness. I don't take suggestions. I
don't take blame. I do take credit. I don't give credit.
All right, there's your very quick short list of somebody
(25:59):
you do not want to work for. Forty forty five fifty.
They're probably not gonna change. You can change your leadership style,
and we all work on this with people, and I've
seen great progress. I can't change your character. I can't
change your personality very much. I can change your approach
to things, but not that. And watch out for clinical narcissism.
I've run into that more than I care to. He'p
(26:20):
always confused that with a big ego. Look, you give me
a leader. At some point, you need a healthy ego,
I would say. And the healthy ego means when I speak,
I expect you to listen. It means that I can
take the blame when we lose. I'm strong enough for that.
And I can give away the credit when we win.
I'm strong enough for that. Also, I can take your suggestions.
I can listen to your complaints. Some strong enough, all right.
(26:40):
A narcissist is the opposite. It's not some shade of
egos the opposite. That guy is thin skinned, all right.
He can't take blame. He takes all the credit. He
has a show off all the time. He's got to
be the press conference. It's got to be in the
first row of the team photo. By the way, alway,
look at those by the way. When I see a
coach in the first row, I don't know, and I
know I'm not seen Jim's team photos. I know he's
(27:00):
not in the front row. Well, you're the one holding
the basketball. And I knew that about him already, without
knowing that about him. That's how you identify it. And
that guy you're not going to change. You have to
get out, I swear to God, because that personality is
not going to change. If someone is struggling to become
a leader, that person may well grow into the job.
That person that asks for help, Warren Buffett says, get help.
Then there you go. That guy. You can work for
(27:22):
that person. You can work for. It's not a show
of strength. It's not again, you don't have to be
the smartest guy in the room. You got to find
out who is a big difference and leading that way
is very effective.
Speaker 6 (27:35):
The sense of insecurity, I think that is one of
the biggest mistake the leaders often are doing and all
their actions are coming from that sense of insecurity. And
the picture. The picture thing that you talked about our
under nineteen women's soccer team when they won the Asian Championship.
(27:55):
In the photo it was the coach, then it was sponsors.
They were in the first role and the players were
in the back and they got a big hit. Everybody
criticized it, like the players. It was the girls who won,
not you guys. So it meets a lot.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah, the Bangladeshi women's soccer team, the amber here in
high school boys icebockey team. It's the same stuff exceptly
the same stuff. And I'm glad they got hammered for that.
They should have got hammred for that. Our joke on
game matches, Hey, on game metes, we wear the coaches
wear shoes, You wear skates all the night. You get
the trophy. We don't grab the Trophy either.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah, I knew you got another project coming out because
this is released here in September, So talk a little
bit about what we can expect from you next month.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Sure, this one is. Here's the advance copy of will
be hardcovering the real Thing, The Gails of November, The
untold story of the Eed Memphis Gerald, the ship that
went down nineteen seventy five, immortalized by the Gordon Lightfoot
song The Wreck of the mph Gerald of course, which
was the number two hit of seventy six, comes out
of as you said, from WW Norton, they did a
perfect storm. They also have Michael Lewis, a great leadership consultant.
(29:06):
In my opinion, he's not trying to write about leadership,
but he is. That's how it works, moneyball and all
the rest. So this book comes out then, and that
we're planning a big national tour. We're getting our first
reviews now. Kirkus gave us a start review at his
top ten percent, and I'm going to print a ton
of these things, a record number for me. So hopefully
you guys get it as not written as a leadership book,
but you're gonna see a lot of leadership lessons in there.
(29:28):
The captain of the ship actually was a great leader.
There's some blind spots that night, unfortunately, but the guys
loved him, and one of the blind spots might have
been they loved him so much and they respected him
so much. I'm not sure if they were able to
give him bad news. So that can be a blind
spot there as well. Make sure people feel comfortable telling
you what you don't want to hear.
Speaker 5 (29:47):
What I felt like I became a better leader is
when that I really gained trust for my staff. And
it's funny because coaching in high school, often people don't
come to you initially. It's to your assistant coach, and
if you don't have that relationship, and almost every day
I was getting some bad news from my best assistant,
(30:08):
but so helpful because you're right, if you don't get
that information, you don't know when you made a great
point of bulls humblocker that he wanted to hear about problems.
Because he's the chief, lem's out right, he's got to
be able to help people do that. So I'm curious,
what would you recommend to a young leader that gets
the opportunity. Certainly in sports we do we get to
(30:28):
pick the people on our team, and in some situations
of business, you do get to pick at least some
people on your team. What advice do you give on
how to pick the right people for your team? And
you know what, when I throw out one thing, I'm
not looking for four foot two basketball players.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
All right, go ahead?
Speaker 5 (30:46):
Yeah, yeah, but I've always said that it usually it
was better when I'm about five ten, when I was
looking up when they were in a thirty second title.
Supposed if I'm looking down, that's probably not a good
signs Jack, not Jay anyway. Yeah, at that time, you
just followed. Although he's got it. He grew right past me.
He's six too. Now.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Yeah, I'll tell me. He still inspires me. I still
play that back all the time. That's too inspiring. Assistant
coaches one very simple point. Week leaders higher week assistance
and strong leaders hire strong ones. I can usually tell
before I meet the top leader how strong he or
she is by looking at their people, and if they're
yes men, yes women, and we can follow along and
(31:26):
yes ma'am, yes sir, and okay, I know what you're getting. No,
you want to hire the best possible people you can get.
My goal on the here On hockey team was to
be the dumbest guy in the coaches room, and I
greatly exceed him expectations. I had Rob Brown, who played
professionally in Sweden. I had guys who played at the
University of Michigan, which I was never close to, some
of the best defensemen in town. This kind of stuff,
(31:48):
and Urban Meyer, the great Ohio state coach, gave me
a great aligne. If I ask you a question, especially
between periods, zam Bunny's on the ice. You guys got halftime.
I got between periods, got about ten minutes. We shut
the door, we're in the coaches room. I'll ask you
a question. Don't answer my question with a question. We
don't have time for it. Give me your opinion and
back to bow. One of his great lines is, if
(32:10):
you had a better idea to win the game on Saturday,
don't tell me on Sunday. That's my advice. Here's the
caveat on one condition that once we're done talking here
and the door opens up when we walk out, I
am the head coach of this team. And if you've
got a problem with anything I'm doing, and you will's
that's gonna happen. You bring it, not to the players,
(32:31):
and not to the parents, and not to the Annaburnews,
and not to our friends at Fraser's Pub. Bring it
to me directly, and we handle it. And likewise the
funnel from the kids. I had a five or six
system coaches, which is three or four more than you're
allowed on the bench, and they're all none of them
got paid. Just wonder the people. Mike Lappert's lapper was
the star of our team. The book is dedicated to him.
A lot of reasonies. But man, I got somebody. They're
(32:53):
far more comfortable talking to a lot of assistant coaches
than they were to meet. And almost every asistant coach
had three or four favorites in the team, and the
player's favorite coaches was not usually me any fine, but
I get things from them I would never get otherwise.
And if that pipeline is shut down, I can't help
that kid. I'm yelling at a kid who's having a
(33:14):
bad day. Does not need me yelling at them, all right,
So that's what happens when you don't have the information.
So that man old cliche communication, a ton of funnel
back and forth gott to be you know what, I.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
Dell thean one least thing. How about as far as
picking the right players on your team.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Now, look, I'm not running a charity, as we say,
I'm not running Disney World either, So yes, talent is
one of the first things we look at, obviously, but
two points on that one. If you are talent but
not character. I cut some kids who were definitely good
enough to be on the team. Do I need that
cancer in my locker room? Not worth it? So that
(33:55):
did happen, sometimes, not too often. Usually the kid like that.
It's only ten percent were projects. Kids were town but
not the right attitude. The coach of the team was
strong enough I could get them going the right way.
If I can't, then okay this season, you won't be
your next season. Chances are that's your decision. But I
also took a couple guys, more than a couple who
were borderline, and that might be generous a talent front,
(34:18):
but I just liked it so much that I thought,
I want that attitude in my locker room. And one
of the great examples of that is Nate Raikuig And
don't worry, we can go a little bit past our
time here. That to nata Ekuige was our fifth string goalie.
I could get your attention because you only take three.
But I think what Ny would do. He came out
of my first year coaching. He's a sophomore at that time.
He's tall, and he's skinny, and he's weak, and he
(34:38):
slow and as he joked for the book, to inter
read all the players for the book, which made it
a pretty rich experience for the reader too. I think,
because you're getting these kids in their thirties now, they
have got perspective. And he said, let's face a coach,
I could not even stop a beach ball. How I
go for a goalie. I'll tell you what he did.
We'd finish our god awful relays, and these are brutal.
(35:00):
I did him to we all threw up in the
track at some point, a lot of hard work. He'd
grab a water bottle. When we're all dying of thirst,
he'd grab a water bottle and he wouldn't drink from it.
He'd pass it to the next guy who needed it more.
Who does that? I wouldn't do that as a high
school kid. I don't think I did as a coach. Frankly,
shame on me. Although I think he did pass out some.
But I'm no Nate. I thought I saw that that
(35:20):
is exceptional, that's extremely unusual. Let's find a way to
get that guy in. And got some lucky breaks. I
guess one of them was the senior goalie his ankle broke,
but one of them before the seasons, there's one spot
well have available for a couple months. We found a
way to split time with the four string guy. We
got them both in, and then second year he's the
thirst string goalie, and I didn't see a whole lot
of progress. But we're giving those same amount of attention
(35:43):
that we're given the starters, same amount of shots, same
amount of coaching, same amount of encouragement, all these things.
And the two goes ahead were very good goalies and
good guys. I like them both very much. One's a
hot shot doctor now done very well. But they didn't
like each other at the breast they're down. It's like
a quarterback controversy in football. This is not healthy. And
I can't get mad at them for letting the puck in,
(36:05):
but I can get mad at them for not supporting
their teammates. So I put Nate in against one of
our best opponents. We've never beaten them in twenty years.
I had twelve the defensemen in the coach's room. I
shut the door. I said, you guys love Nate, right,
Oh god, we love Nate. So I'm starting them tonight.
We love Nate. How much do you love Nate? Yeah?
All right? Act as look pulled the goalie block every shot,
(36:25):
two guys back all night long. I don't care we
score a goal. Nate's got to survive this night. And
it could be ten nothing, twelve nothing, final score here
on five gross points South, one of the best teams
in the state. Three and I have no idea. What
the hell happened that night? Yeah, the coach was very generous.
He said, I see a coach with a clear system,
and his players have bought into a system. You see
(36:46):
a lucky ass coach. Is what you do. We're in
my French But what happened and the lesson there is
water all the plants and watch who grows. You don't
know who's gonna grow, how fast, how far. But I
do know if you don't water them, then gonna grow
your job. Get out of the prediction business. We do
this way too much in leadership. This guy's gonna make it.
(37:07):
This guy's nut. How do you know, j Mac, is
that John call them Jason McIlwain, tell me you predicted
that night he said, this guy's gonna can a bunch
of them. Three of the place's gonna go nuts, and
you're gonna be a national TV year round. If you
told me that before the game, I'd say, you, sir,
are insane. Why is he even gonna get into the game.
Let's back that one up, So water up the plants.
(37:27):
But McElwain knew going into that game, Coach, that you
had his back. He knew that his teammates had his back.
He felt loved, he felt supported. I'm gonna get a
choked U right now telling your story, right, felt love, supported,
The crowd is on his side. He felt all of that.
Without that going in is not gonna work. So give
them all that's watering the plants and then see what
(37:48):
happens and my players chapter six, let them surprise you.
My player surprised me all the time, and I know
yours did too, and you don't see it coming. But
that's the happy accidents you get in a prier culture.
Speaker 5 (38:01):
John, just say one thing, is that he said some
powerful things. There is that when I talked to people
because I hit other team managers. But Resa, I gave
him a shot. And first of all, I twito for
the team three consecutives. I never had a kid do
that before they did make the team. Number two is
he did everything for us. He always came to this
(38:24):
early heath, so he deserved an opportunity. The reason I
gave him a chance is because he deserved it.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Guy in our team, Rahp Demiro, came out for the
team three times. He was overweight. I cut him the
first year, good player, but overweight. Second year came to
all the workouts, same thing. I come him again thirty years,
about to come again. And he came into my office
with a sheet typed out, computerized and so on. And
I said, what's this? Because you don't walk into my
office during tryouts. I don't know any of you. No
(38:51):
one's in his locker room, no one's in the spot yet,
et cetera. His plan for losing weight and it says
and all the usual stuff. And number six was file
the five piece and I said, okay, I'll bite. What
are the five piece? His poor preparation of his poor performance. Okay,
let's prepare. I laughed at that one, thinking to myself,
kidd has made the team and I didn't say it then,
and I made the team. He end up losing eighty pounds.
(39:13):
He scored at one of our worst one of our
toughest opponents, scored the winning goal as our arch rival.
All this stuff, But you know what, you came a
team three times. You had this sheet. You're dead serious.
That's how you got the shot. That's great and I
did not know that about macaloy in the background. That's
really cool.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
So one of my biggest takeaways here, and something I'm
still trying to wrap my head around, is that you John,
you Bacon, got advice from urban Meyer and you actually
took n Well, what is this? Is this the leadership
lesson too? About respect for your rivals?
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Yeah? Mind, I'm not the Misigan football coach that might
have changed his attitude towards me. That was book called
Fourth and Long is the bestseller on college football. Urban
Meyer was great with me and Misikon fans hated when
I say that, but he was and he is utterly straightforward,
and I liked that. What do you want to hear it?
Or not. Boy, he was direct and I admired that too.
Look another mistake leaders make your predecessor, you shut out.
(40:08):
That happens all the time. It's the eighty ninety percent,
I think, by my estimation. Why wouldn't you talk to
the person who had the job before you? For me?
It was there twenty two and three, and as I
said in the book, did not go to the senior
banquet the year before salt in a lot of tears
and so on. So what he had done the job
for ten years, He knew things that I didn't know
about the players I was going to coach. We were friends,
(40:30):
We still are friends. Somebody I do respect absolutely. Why
not sit down in three or four hours, a few
beers and a lot of notes. I can agree or disagree,
doesn't matter. I don't have to do what he says,
all right, But why wouldn't you find out so urban Meyer? Heck, hey,
guys had big trunky rings. Why wouldn't I ask him
what he thought about that? Get help, get help, and
especially from the people who came before you, and show
(40:52):
respect for your history. I'm amazed, very rare. Does any
coach ever reached out to me? Dude? I got a book.
I'll help you e for free. I charge people for
this stuff. But and that's fine, that's their decision. I'm
not gonna have. It's got to be a one way street.
You can't impose it on them. But I'm amazed how
rarely leaders reach out for help from people who are
(41:13):
eager to give it. And you don't have to take
their advice. But why not hear it?
Speaker 5 (41:18):
Real quick story, So, my first coaching job at varsity level,
we won one game coaching it asked me not to
come back. But my second job, it was a small school.
I was from a big town and when I took over,
there was one coach in the league and all the
coaches in the league hated him because won all the time.
I became his best friend because I was like, this guy,
(41:40):
he's doing that fight out and he gave me so
much wisdom. But you are so right afraid to reach out.
And you know what, for most I think good leaders,
they feel like that's a compliment to be asked.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Absolutely, Gina Orion. Of course, the imagine you're a Yukon coach,
one of the greatest coaches of all time any sport,
right him Barnjerico is the women's coach here at Michigan.
She was at Saint John's and they finally beat Yukon
in a game. On the bus home, Gina Oreano calls
up her to congratulate her on the win and how
it's going to be a helpful to their program and
(42:14):
helpful to the league. I don't know if I'm pulling
that one off. I'm looking my orlans probably, but great
leaders respond, and you know why everyone else is afraid
of this guy? Why not find out? When we had
a chance at a state title my third year, I
reached out to Brian Townsend. He's the boys basketball coach
at Edburgh Pioneer. With Levelle Blanchard and up being a
(42:34):
big star. They wanted to state title a couple of
years earlier. I said, Okay, it's only six games to
a state tournament. Walk me through it. What do I
focus on? He gives me great advice. It's basketball versus hockey.
It's the same stuff. You want to stay title and
I haven't. What don't I know what am I missing?
And he gave me some great advice.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
It's gonna say, John, we do want to just ask
quickly where people can find out more about you.
Speaker 5 (42:56):
Let them lead, and then also grab your.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Upcoming book come out next month. Sure, let them lead
us right here. The subtitle is accurate Unexpected lessons in
Leadership from America's worst Tis Goo Hockey team. One problem
I didn't have, and I credit the seniors, especially on
that team. I didn't have dissension on the ranks. There
are three or four clicks in that team, as they're
going to be different crowds and so they're not alway
gonna have the same interest. But they were unified. They
(43:20):
were not playing fingers and that was a senior class beforehand.
But anyway, that is let them Lead by Bacon dot com.
That's the book, that's the podcast that coach Johnson better
understand he's gonna be on that one pretty soon. I
guess my great ones, including some Hall of famers and
other folks like that, Red Barns and the Michigan hockey
coach and NHLers corporate CEOs, really cool stuff. Carol Hutchins
(43:43):
is the great softball coach at Michigan, others and John
Youbacon dot com, John Youbacon dot com, Johnathan h Sorry John,
And that's what you all have to get this book,
The Gales of November. It's on Amazon right now, it's
on the Nordon website, independent bookstores and on They all
got it. So that comes out October seventh, and if
not a bestseller, my boss is gonna be very uhappy
(44:05):
with me. You've had seven of them.
Speaker 5 (44:08):
I'm pretty sure your odds are pretty good.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
You let them lead by Bacon dot com, John Ubacon
dot com. All that info in the show notes below,
So go grab those books if you want more, John,
you bacon, because of course you do. They say bacon
makes everything better. Our mornings have been made a lot
better by talking with you today than no guilt calorie free.
So thank you doing for your time today. We cannot
thank you enough. We really appreciate you stopping by.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
It's very kind, gentle, And on one very important point,
we just had a lot of fun, didn't we love
It has to be fun, and every day is not
gonna be fun, and some things are just gonna plane suck.
If you're leading courteously, you have make some horrible decisions
and you got to make them. And the MADD's got
to come from you, whether it's to an individual or
to the and as I say, when you become the
(44:53):
head coach or the CEO or the department head or
whatever else you're doing with the principle, when you're the assistant,
you're everyone's favorit uncle or aunt and everyone you know,
we're in bed with the coach or the head coach.
To guess what you're the mom or the dad is
a little bit different. You're not the cool one anymore.
With the assistance are the cool ones. But nonetheless, it
has to be fun. It has to feel good. Not
(45:15):
all the time, nothing is all right, but a fair
amount of the time. Find ways to have fun, find
ways for humor. If you don't do it, you're not
gonna make it. It's too hard. You need water, the
desert is hard. You need pack water, pack at lunch packs,
some magazines to read, whatever you need. You got to
make it fun. This was fun, and I knew that
(45:37):
we were doing the right things when the guys look
forward to coming to the rink without that man, and
we had that going in February. That's late in the
season for us. If my team is not sick of
each other, and my team is not sick of the sport,
and your team is both you're probably gonna lose. And
the one rule. Here's one rule. I said it in
the book, the one rule I broke. We were very
good about the rules. We followed rules of other teams.
(45:58):
I know, didn't we knew that going into certain games,
about recruiting and things like this, all this business. But
one rule I did break every year, and I'd do
it again. The way the state works probably New York too,
but the state works is once the season is over,
once you're out of the playoffs, you can't have another
practice and so on. Hockey, unlike baseball and basketball, we
rent that ice, and that ice is expensive. It's reading
a buck. Some practice not cheap. So man, we already
(46:21):
have it Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, we're out of the playoffs.
And I told the guys the ice is available. You
can do what you want. You don't have to do anything,
but you want to play, you can. It's not a practice.
I wasn't trying to get it better just and okay,
we just lost a heartbreaking game in overtime. Totally sucks.
All the guys came back the next day and all
the guys wanted to play, and some guys are playing
goal you weren't goalies, and so on and so forth.
(46:42):
But they weren't sick of the game, and they weren't
sick of each other. And I thought, you know what,
I'll take that over a playoff win anytime. If your
guys don't cry at the bank, what something's wrong, it
should be hard to let go. My kids in third grade,
we got our last Pittsfield Township machine pitch third grade
baseball game tomorrow night. And he's already getting sad about it.
(47:02):
Yet I think there's more baseball in front of you. Yeah,
for a lot of years, that's more retire jersey in
the ceremony. I'll but it's gotta mean something, and it's
got to feel good. And really, the end of the day,
I got my grabs, you got yours. But that's lead
to the heart, and if you don't have that, not
much else is gonna go right.
Speaker 4 (47:21):
Thank you for joining us this week at the Limitless
Leadership Lounge. To listen to this episode again and to
find previous episodes, check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
and Spreaker. You can also get in on the conversation
find us on Facebook and Instagram. Then tell three of
your friends to join it as well. Coach Branuma and John.
We'll be back again next week for another try generational
(47:43):
leadership discussion. We'll talk to you then on the Limitless
Leadership Lounge
This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better
podcast network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the podcast to
get you there.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
You can find out.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
More at teechbetter dot com slash podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Values of our victories, that's one of the keys. And
because we define those and we're control of those, we're
control of our values, control of our behaviors. Every day,
if you don't believe, no one else is going to
find a way to be optimistic. And when you need to,
you go back to the behaviors. Are the behaviors getting better?
Your job? Get out of the prediction business. We do
(00:33):
this way too much in leadership. This guy's gonna make it,
this guy's and not. How do you know?
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Do you want to be a leader in a constantly
changing world? Our emerging leaders look different, come from various
backgrounds and from all different age groups. Leadership is changing
and it's hard to keep up. But the good news
you can be a leader too. You can be an
e merging leader. Welcome to the Limitless Leadership Lounge, a
(00:59):
try generational conversation for emerging leaders. Come spend some time
with us to discuss leadership from three angles. The coach
Jim Johnson, the Professor, doctor Reneuma Kareem, the host, John
Gering a monthly guest, and you get in on the
conversation on Facebook and Instagram, and be sure to follow
(01:19):
us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Speaker. So come on
in and make yourself comfortable.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
It's another weekendside the Limitless Leadership Lounge. This is what
we call a try generational conversation for you, the emerging leaders,
because we got three generations represented here.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Coach Jim Johnson, doctor.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Numa Kareem, and I am John Gary. Today we're joined
by another really cool guest. Coach brings on some of
the best guests. I love the people that Coach connects with,
and John, you Bacon, is no different. So let's dive
into his story. He has an incredible inspirational story. Also
his book Let Them Lead, and an upcoming book he
has coming out next month as this is released. So
we got a lot to talk about today. Coach, go
(01:57):
ahead and introduce John and let's dive right in.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
I've been chasing him down to get him on our podcast,
so I appreciate that opportunity. John's worked for nearly three
decades as a writer, speaker, and also I was a
college professor at University of Michigan. He's written seven New
York Times bestselling books. He won the Golden Apple Award
for Teaching Excellence at University of Michigan. He was called
(02:23):
by was it good Morning America? He was the ted
Lasso and we're going to get into the book.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Let them lead.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
But John is a terrific guy. We're really looking forward
to have him. He's got too many accolades that we
spend half the time talking about his accolades. John, without
any further ado, welcome to the Limitless Leadership Lounge.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Coach, Thank you very much. I'm not about you far
longer than known about me, thanks to mister mac owain,
of course, your celebrity bah player from two thousand and
six video many times. I had just finished coaching out
in the high school hockey team myself at that time,
so I was the perfect sweet spot for that story.
And as I said to you off air, I knew
when I saw the story about Jason, and of course
(03:04):
the artistic manager who goes in there and drops a
bunch of three point bombs and the teammates go crazy,
the crowd goes crazy. It's a cool moment. No doubt
about it, and got a lot of national attention. But
I knew that's the chair in the top of a
very good Sunday that takes years to build. That moment
has not happened overnight and does not happened just because
of one kid, and God bless Jason. But that's a
(03:27):
culture that builds that. So when I saw that, coach,
I knew that I wanted to meet you someday. I
didn't think I would, but here we are to be
on your show. Thank you, John.
Speaker 5 (03:37):
We're really looking forward to it, and let's get delve
into the ted lasts, so let them lead. It's a
book I'd gift, and there's only a few books I
gift right now. I really enjoyed it immensely. He said
a lot of things that made a lot of sense
to me, because obviously I was a long time coach.
So talk about just start sharing the story. I know
it's about hockey and I'm a basketball coach, but a
(04:00):
little bit about the story in just a couple of
points about how you turn this as you labeled I
think the worst high school hockey.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Team sadly accurate at the time. So anyway, yeah, and
it is a hockey book, but it's not a hockey book.
And those are pictures of my guys on the wall
that my parents gave me, and some other hockey paintings
and so on. But my editor was a late great
Rick Wolf, just passed away a couple of years ago.
He did Rich Dad, Poor Dad. He did Jack Welch's
From the Gut I think about sixty or seventy year
(04:31):
Times Business bestsellers, the gold standard in the business. And
he'd been friends for a while since I had done
Bo's Lasting Lessons with him. That's BeO Schemeckler's last book,
and that was very gratifying for me. But his mantra
throughout this is your point is that, damn it, John,
it's not a hockey book. Hundred of times. He's coached
a lot of baseball himself, so it's not a hockey
(04:53):
book in any real sense. That's about leadership. And I'm
no basketball coach, certainly despite coaching my kid's third grade
team last year to mix results. But anyway, the team
I took over Annaberheron River Rats, and I'm not making
that mascot up. We are the only ones in the country.
I'm pretty sure in two thousand they were zero twenty
two and three, and a few non sports fans out there,
(05:13):
the zero's where the winds go. The ranked is the
worst team in America. Incredibly, out of twelve hundred and
fifty six teams. They hire yours truly the worst player
in school history to post them. That's where the ted
Lasso part comes in, because this guy's got no business
being the coach. Basically, I still hold the record for
the most games coach in a here on uniform eighty
six with the fewest goals zero. I played forward, by
(05:36):
the way, it didn't leave a lot to love. Worst
player in school history, worst team in America. Yeah, this
should work. What do you do? You get help? And
Warren Buffett at a great line, if you think of
the smartest guy in the room, get a better room.
And it's your job as the head coach not to
be the smartest guy in the room. It's your job
of fee out who is and take their advice. In
(05:56):
my case, that's Al Clark of Culver Academies, Brillian coach.
He still has the record, I believe, for the most
wins of any high school coach ony seventeen. He says
five words today, just like me his big premium speeches.
This would be a good game to win.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Thanks, but whatever your personalities, it's fine as long as
your word is good. It's what I find his great
advice to me. You got to make it special to
play for Huron, and the best way to make it
special is to make it hard, because the opposite of
whatever else is telling me. And we're terrified now in business,
I know you, Jim give a lot of corporate speeches.
I do too. They are terrified at twenty five year olds.
(06:32):
They're trying to lower the bar, bean bag chairs and
gambucha machines and casual fridays in tacco Tuesdays and so on.
Nope'll you will get people who like those things. That's
the problem. It works. Tell my heart, the job is.
If the job's not hard, why are they paying you
worse hard? That's what the money's for. So you start
off with that and you keep your expectations high. Second
(06:54):
step was to build trust with the players. So high
expectations build trust. Third step was the scariest, and that
has let them lead. But that's when third year, for example,
I let them coach an entire game. We had a
fourteen game winning streak by then, very good for US.
Two straight losses to our arch rivals, every coach gets paranoid.
I did too. I let the seniors coach in the
(07:16):
next game against the ranked team, and I didn't say
a word the entire night. They picked up the lineup,
the strategy they changed on the fly in hockey, which
means while the pucks and play first, center comes off second.
Said it's got to go out. You got to organize
all that. I let you guys can handle up. We
got ten seniors, so they did, and they beat a
ranked team six nothing. Everything we've got to say in
(07:37):
that book is simple, and Jim you already know that
he's not one complicated idea. None of it's easy. That's
the trick. Don't confuse simple with easy. What's hard about it?
Every single thing I tell you to do takes courage
and things like leaving your best player in the parking
lot because he's two minutes late for the bus. All right,
(07:58):
every coach stops that bus, but not out Clark, my mentor,
and not me.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
Discipline, and John, this is one major thing. I think
a discipline is everywhere, so from sports to real life.
Discipline plays a major role in leadership. One thing I
found it very interesting that from reading your book and
your bio, no wonder you're called ted Lasso of this
(08:23):
Fiel and one major area of ted Lasso was the
optimism in his leadership. So how did you keep that
optimism even when you know that this is the team
that you were leading? And how important is to be
optimistic when you're leading?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
A great question. I've been asked hundreds of questions by
now maybe thousands probably on this book since it came
out in twenty twenty one. I don't think I've ever
gotten that one, which is pretty hard to hit him
where they ain't. Is we really killer? Once said one
hundred years ago in baseball, you just did. I hadn't
thought of in those terms, But it is true. If
I was not optimistic, no one else is going to be.
So that was true throughout. Sometimes I had to force myself,
(09:03):
no doubt, to try to find several linings when you
get slacked thirteen to two or seven to nothing, and
all that happened that first year, especially how you frame this,
I'd say a few answers to that one. I always
focused on behaviors not results. Now we paid attention to results.
We had fifteen stat lines for every player who played
that night, and this is pre analytics. We were ahead
(09:25):
of the game as twenty players. That's three hundred spreadsheet
boxes we filled in after every game, and there was
printed and put on the wall before practice the next day,
and all the kids went right to that wall. They
all wanted to find out how they did and block shots, hits,
shots on net, whatever. But I focused on behaviors so
I could always say. When we got smoked thirteen to
two by Trenton, the best team in America arguably, I said, hey,
(09:50):
values of our victories, that's one of the keys. And
because we define those and we're in control of those,
we control of our values, control of our behaviors. Every day.
I don't control the refs and don't control pucks bounce
funny ways, and so do shots in basketball, goalies do
funny things, and soda shooters. You don't control any of
that stuff. You can do everything right and lose entirely
(10:10):
pop So do I get mad if we lose a
game like that? No at all, even thirteen to two,
I said, hey, two guys are here on hockey work hard,
support your teammates. Did you guys do those two things tonight?
And I said, yes, we did, Yes, you did, all right,
And God bless him. They're the best team in the
state and they beginse thirteen to two, but they quit
working for ten goals. They quit high five in each
(10:31):
other after ten goals. You guys kept working the entire game,
supporting your goalie after all thirteen goals. That's impressive. We
define ourselves. So you walk out of here with your
head held high because this was heroic. So one key
to be an optimistic is you define the terms. All right.
You framed the argument. That's one thing. Second of all,
what Herb Brooks, the great Olympic coach from nineteen eighty
(10:53):
And I know Jim knows that name, and probably you
guys too. Mircle on ice. That's Herb Brooks C and
I became friends in the process. Brilliant coach, just brilliant
that it was not a fluke. Yeah, it's a once
in a lifetime game. But like that Sunday, it was engineered.
And I said before one of our big games a
year later, we're playing Trent again. Now we're much better.
We're sixteen eight and two we're playing trent in the
(11:14):
regional finals. And they called up Herban and said, okay,
and tomorrow night we're playing the Soviets, and I'm pretty
sure we're the Americans. That's about the odds here, What
do you got? And I had my schematics out there
of all the rinks and all the strategy, and first period,
second period went by shoting the bench. When do we
start dumping it in all this other hockey terminology, none
of it, he said, Johnny, with this Minnesota accent. Above all,
(11:36):
you gotta believe. If you don't believe, nothing good can happen.
If you do believe, anything can happen. And then he
chuckled and said, believe me was the architect of the
greatest upset in the history of sports. And then I
thought about it. He's right. And just because we work
hard toport our teammates and believe in ourselves and each other,
just not guarantee when to beat Trenting. I can absolutely
(11:58):
one percent arantee you. If you don't work hard, support
your teammates, and believe in ourselves and each other, we
don't have a chance. And so John or Jim or
if you guys buy a lottery ticket. I can't guarantee
you're gonna win the lottery. The odds are still against them.
But I can guarantee you what ny percent. You don't
buy a lottery ticket, you ain't winning the damn lottery.
(12:19):
In our business. Back to optimism, I hadn't thought of
in those terms. So now you got me going on this.
But in our business, what if you're a leader in anything,
corporation to school, hospital and so on, Your lottery tickets
are hope, belief, faith, confidence, And no, I'm gonna add optimism,
and you can buy them first. And if you don't
buy them, they ain't gonna buy them, because why would
they if you don't believe, why should they believe? All
(12:39):
these tickets? And hopefully after a while they start buying
for them themselves, and then they start buying them for
each other. And now seniors are buying them for juniors,
and juniors are buying them for sophomores, and now this
whole thing's going. That night before that Trenton game, I
left a locker room to the senior because I always do,
and I said, seniors, your room after my speech about
Herb and all that, and I don't know, they said,
(13:00):
But man in stick steel door, places packed as always,
Detroit News is there, Detroit Free presses, there is a
big game. The band is playing allowed it's gonna be
two thousand people. I could hear these guys yelling to
that door halfway down the rink. So whatever's gonna happen
that night? And I told my coaches this, I don't
know what it's gonna happen to night. No one does.
I can tell you one thing. Those guys are done
being scared and they believe, and we'll see what happens next.
(13:23):
We lost three to two and a nail bier, but
their fans gave our guys a stand innovation. But the
point is that's fast. It took two years. I thought
it could take five. I underestimated the kids. That was
my ventilation. So belief is if you don't believe, no
one else is going to find a way to be optimistic.
And when you need to, you go back to the behaviors.
Are the behaviors getting better, the behavior getting better, then
(13:47):
we're gonna get there. And part of it also is
probably vision that I know we're ultimately and I know
we're gonna get there, all right, so this is our path.
Our path is not this. Our path is this setbacks, problems,
It's all gonna happen. But if you don't hold the
North Star in your head, no one else is going to.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Another takeaway from your story is that it did take time.
And all good things do, all good cultures do take
time to build. And in this world we often see,
like in the world of professional sports, a coach wins
Coach of the Year of the NBA and gets canned,
or a coach loses in the conference finals and gets canned.
Then business we see the same thing. You're not able
(14:28):
to produce the results in year one and we're moving
on to.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
A new leader.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
So I'm not saying that's always bad because results are important, right,
But what kind of belief does an organization have to
have in a leader to instill in them that opportunity
in that time to get the ball roll and then
establish that culture.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
My advice from mild mentor both. Shimmeckler, the old Michian
football coach. He hit a shot at the Wisconsin job
before the Michigan job and didn't like the vibe of
the interview, and I thought the whole thing was a
bit of a circus. This would have been nineteen sixty
eight and he left the room, got in a pay phone.
That'll date me. Hall's The idea is is take my
name off. Don't take a job if it's a bump
(15:12):
and pay, prestige title, all that stuff. So what if
it's not set up for success or a chance for success,
don't take it. And I think oftentimes, by the way,
it's harder, I think in publicly held companies because they
have to give returns every quarter and the stackholders watch this,
and the board watches this and so on. I've seen
(15:32):
great leaders Mary Barra, General Motors, Bill Ford, Jute Ford,
and Jim Hackett, who endorsed my book, great leaders at
that level. But I think it's harder for the reason
you cite. So find yourself a situation where you're going
to have time to do what needs to be done,
and without that, it's not going to work. So that's
one thing. Second of all, if I'm in charge of
(15:52):
a coach, I'm gonna do the same thing I would
as a coach, which is, are the behaviors getting better
the team listening to this coach. If the coach loses
the locker room. I don't know about you, coach, but
I don't know if I've ever seen anyone get it back.
So do you still have the room? We're in a
ten game losing streak. My first year. I'm telling you
right now, John, that was the best coaching I have
ever done. And it's true because we lose a trend
(16:15):
thirteen to two starts a ten game losing streak. Who
kept on getting close closer to all those teams. No
one gave up, no one pointed the fingers. What am
I asking for? We're cards for your team as we
did it, and we played trend again and now seven
to one. Okay, that's like twice as good. Right, that's progress.
So you work on the behaviors. But man, the need
to go that fast, don't fall. If you're doing it right,
(16:36):
it will not happen that fast almost ever. So zone
that out. Be patient. Jackie Robinson gets the major leagues
and goes on a bad time for a hitting drought,
and his coach stayed with him.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So it was all about like process related goals instead
of always having the result related goals.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
When your goal setting, and we had goal sets, the
team picked the goals of the seniors picked the goals.
We had ten goals. Ever, ye, it's in the book.
I would pick twoks to I knew they didn't care
about highest grade point and fewest penalties. That would never
make their list. Yes, and God blossom for it. But
everything else the seniors were in charge of, and they
would have team meetings. They would last two or three
(17:14):
days after practice before they picked the eight they wanted.
They took it very seriously and once they pick those, okay,
these are your goals, all right. And that's a big
difference to me saying you should do this, you should
do that. If I was running in a sales department.
I think it's a big mistake almost every sales department makes.
They give you your quotas, No, have them give you
their quotas, and they will raise the bar higher than
you would surprisingly perhaps, and in the process they feel
(17:38):
far more committed. They own that's your goal, not mine.
So yeah, but still, as far as I'm concerned, I
watch process, I watch behaviors. First of all.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
Something that you gave me really good clarity, because I
felt the same way after I read your book about
my program when I was coaching, was that I would program.
Why it was different, he said it was a two
season was we cared deeply about our kids, but it
was very challenging. But we're the only one in our
area that was precis six o'clock in the morning, so
(18:09):
it was not easy to play in our program. But
they did know that we cared about them and we
had very high expectations. So it would just give me
me clarity on that was really good. But I got
to delve in. I've got so many questions, could be
here forever. But because I'm old by people, I'm curious,
what did you learn from bo Schemblocker, because I remember
those days very well with Woody Hayes and Bosh by
(18:31):
Ohio State Michigan.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Can you share a little bit of ball what you
learned from Bull? Sure, I learned a lot of things
from Bow and you are right by the way, and
one of the things that what the book will do,
I'll give you some good ideas that help and some
new ideas perhaps, but well also for people already doing
I think a very good job. They're often knowing who
buy the book, by the way, guys like you who
already did a great job. But it will reinforce why
you're doing what you're doing, and remind you why that works.
(18:55):
Six o'clock in the morning. I love that. Find out
who wants it right away? My classic Mischigan I just
said about eight thirty on Friday mornings because they hate that.
It ruined my morning. But at Room there's two great
He wants to be in this class quickly. And that's
a separating point. You can say that, hey, we do
this and others don't. No one else is going to
us five thirty for this we are who's the point
of pride? I think whatever from Bo is not what
(19:18):
you'd expect. The book is called Bo's Lasting Lessons. It's
still out there, still in print. Warren Buffett endorsed it,
which is the only book he's ever endorsed. I think
for Bow, now for me, trust me, but what you
would expect listen before you lead. Bow's reputation was well earned.
Big temper, throw his heads in the sideline, get penalties
for yelling at RAFs, grab players by the face, mass
(19:39):
to yell at them, including Jim Harbott, future coach of Michigan.
You can't do any of this anymore, of course, but
he was a phenomenal listener. And when I tell people that,
they don't believe it until you talk to his players.
And he had a strict rule ten through twelve Monday
through Friday during game weeks, the coaches go into the
coach's room to go over the game plan, practice plan,
(20:00):
and so on. The doors literally locked. And both said,
if if my boss calls Don Kennam, the great ad
at Michigan, if he calls, take a message, If his boss,
the president of the university calls, take a message, If
the President of the United States, Gerald Ford, a close friend,
if he'd been an MVP at Michigan, bod campaign for him,
(20:21):
and so on, if he calls, take a message. And
I did what you guys are doing on WHOA, I said,
you can't be serious. He goes Bacon. It was my
job to speak to the leader of the free world.
It was my job to beat the Buckeyes. Okay, that
is a focused individual. And I had a chance to
interview Gerald Ford after that, and I couldn't resist bring
(20:42):
this thing up. And he wasn't very happy about this.
I'm pretty sure it was true. Listen, I can get
Bresnif on the phone thirty seconds you can't get a
bunk couch. That seems preposterous, but it's true. But if
you're a third string walked on from Sulin, Ohio who
couldn't sleep the night before, If you're wondering why you
on the team and why you knock yourself out and
do all these things and so on, then you need
(21:03):
to talk to bo Lynn Cook and Mary Passing. His
great secretaries were instructed you don't ask him what it's about.
If it's personal, they won't tell you. You don't tell him
to come back the next day, because you know what,
he couldn't sleep last night. If you tell him to
come back the next day, he ain't coming back. She
ain't coming back. All right, You are to open that
door without any hesitation and tell me that a player's
(21:24):
here to see me. That's all I got to know.
So once I hear the tumbler's turn, I know it's
got to be important. And Jim Hackett was one of
those guys, third streen guy, demo team center. His dad
was an All American Ohio State. His brother I think
it was a hot shot either at Ohio State or no,
no that I am. I can't remember. But anyway, and
Boud come out and he talked to you eye contact
like this, not shoulder surfing. Now we're going to watch,
(21:45):
not fumbling the change in his pockets. Lock in and
after you're done spilling your guts. He would wait ten
seconds before he said anything. And that's genius. And I
had to learn that that was not natural for me
at all. It is so powerful, so simple, so powerful,
and so hard to do. But when I've spilled my guts,
(22:05):
and big tough guy Jim Hackett center on the football team,
he's near tears. Bo waits and says, Jimmy, is that it?
He goes. Yeah, I'd say he goes. First of all,
thank you for coming down here. If he didn't come
down with your problem, I wouldn't know your problem. We
might lose a great man like Jim Haggett. Can't have that.
And great land from Colin Powell. The day that your
(22:26):
people could bring their problems is the day that you
could be in their leader. And when they have a problem,
what do you do? You seek out what the laziest,
stupidest person with no wisdom and no power to help. No,
you see out the opposite. If they have sought you
out with your problem. You've already checked several boxes on
their list. They hold you in very high esteem. That's
the measure. They won't tell you that, but they just
(22:48):
did with their feet. That's why they're knocking on the door,
all right. And I guarantee you when they come to
you their problem, you'll be at the most inconvenient time
of the day. That's it's not scheduled two o'clock. I
hear someone can plain about their job. Nope, not in there.
But you got to find the time. And if you don't,
somebody else will. And when somebody else does, that person
owes that person and not you, So you find the time.
(23:09):
So the biggest thing I learn from bo is how
to lessen John.
Speaker 6 (23:14):
You made me feel a little bit better because I
was always a little bit frustrated because everybody calls me
when they have a problem, from colleagues, friends, the persons
who are working with me, the volunteers, and I would say,
why me, why are they always calling me? And I
take time to listen, But sometime it is stressful, like
(23:34):
taking everybody's stress on me and then trying to find solution.
But you made me feel better that they are checking
those lists that I am worthy to listen to their problem.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
That is our because you're so good at it, work
gets out and you can hear.
Speaker 5 (23:48):
More track cofident One of the questions I have.
Speaker 6 (23:52):
We know one are the characteristic of a good leader,
but I have also experienced so many toxic leadership around us.
So from your experiences as a point of view, can
you give us some pointers on how to identify toxic
leader or what not to do as a leader.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
How to identify them? Usually after six months and probably
three months, the whole thing feels wrong. It probably feels
wrong for a reason. If you're willing to work hard,
if you're willing to suport your teammates as I say,
and that's not good enough, then something's probably off. I
think this is happening more and more. You have tons
of books on leadership, podcasts is on mine too, yours
two and so on. But I think the CEO culture,
(24:31):
the CEO gets Twitter times what the other person gets,
and get the gold jet and everything else, the little funkyness,
sum earn it and some are great. Yeah, I'm not
saying by any means. I've seen many great CEOs. Most
was up dealt with our great in my opinion. But
you see a lot of crazy ones and division heads
and so on. It boils down to this. I can
walk into a company and within about five ten minutes
(24:52):
figure out I was gonna make it who's not? Pretty quickly?
Then I'm batting about ninety five percent. I don't care
about your resume. I don't care where you want to school,
which your major was, which your great point is we
all get fooled by resumes, we all get full by interviews.
Happens all the time. All right. I asked three questions.
Who are your mentors? Who do you call up when
you got a problem? Who's going to call you right back? Two?
Who are your peers? All right? When you have a problem,
(25:14):
you need to cry on someone shoulder? There you go,
renew you're in apparently? Third? Who is people underneath you
will take a bullet for you? If you transferred, who
comes with you? And if you don't have answers to
those questions, you're going to go down hard and fast
because you have no allies left to take to break
the fall. The person's going to fail when they become
the leaders. Oh wow, And Abraham Lincoln said it, and
(25:36):
it's brilliant. If you want to test a person's character,
don't give them adversity. Most of us can handle that. Frankly,
give them power because most of us can't. I mean,
your power is almost absolute. Do you abuse it? Right now?
I'm in charge, I have to know all the answers.
I can show no weakness. I don't take suggestions. I
don't take blame. I do take credit. I don't give credit.
All right, there's your very quick short list of somebody
(25:59):
you do not want to work for. Forty forty five fifty.
They're probably not gonna change. You can change your leadership style,
and we all work on this with people, and I've
seen great progress. I can't change your character. I can't
change your personality very much. I can change your approach
to things, but not that. And watch out for clinical narcissism.
I've run into that more than I care to. He'p
(26:20):
always confused that with a big ego. Look, you give me
a leader. At some point, you need a healthy ego,
I would say. And the healthy ego means when I speak,
I expect you to listen. It means that I can
take the blame when we lose. I'm strong enough for that.
And I can give away the credit when we win.
I'm strong enough for that. Also, I can take your suggestions.
I can listen to your complaints. Some strong enough, all right.
(26:40):
A narcissist is the opposite. It's not some shade of
egos the opposite. That guy is thin skinned, all right.
He can't take blame. He takes all the credit. He
has a show off all the time. He's got to
be the press conference. It's got to be in the
first row of the team photo. By the way, alway,
look at those by the way. When I see a
coach in the first row, I don't know, and I
know I'm not seen Jim's team photos. I know he's
(27:00):
not in the front row. Well, you're the one holding
the basketball. And I knew that about him already, without
knowing that about him. That's how you identify it. And
that guy you're not going to change. You have to
get out, I swear to God, because that personality is
not going to change. If someone is struggling to become
a leader, that person may well grow into the job.
That person that asks for help, Warren Buffett says, get help.
Then there you go. That guy. You can work for
(27:22):
that person. You can work for. It's not a show
of strength. It's not again, you don't have to be
the smartest guy in the room. You got to find
out who is a big difference and leading that way
is very effective.
Speaker 6 (27:35):
The sense of insecurity, I think that is one of
the biggest mistake the leaders often are doing and all
their actions are coming from that sense of insecurity. And
the picture. The picture thing that you talked about our
under nineteen women's soccer team when they won the Asian Championship.
(27:55):
In the photo it was the coach, then it was sponsors.
They were in the first role and the players were
in the back and they got a big hit. Everybody
criticized it, like the players. It was the girls who won,
not you guys. So it meets a lot.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah, the Bangladeshi women's soccer team, the amber here in
high school boys icebockey team. It's the same stuff exceptly
the same stuff. And I'm glad they got hammered for that.
They should have got hammred for that. Our joke on
game matches, Hey, on game metes, we wear the coaches
wear shoes, You wear skates all the night. You get
the trophy. We don't grab the Trophy either.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah, I knew you got another project coming out because
this is released here in September, So talk a little
bit about what we can expect from you next month.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Sure, this one is. Here's the advance copy of will
be hardcovering the real Thing, The Gails of November, The
untold story of the Eed Memphis Gerald, the ship that
went down nineteen seventy five, immortalized by the Gordon Lightfoot
song The Wreck of the mph Gerald of course, which
was the number two hit of seventy six, comes out
of as you said, from WW Norton, they did a
perfect storm. They also have Michael Lewis, a great leadership consultant.
(29:06):
In my opinion, he's not trying to write about leadership,
but he is. That's how it works, moneyball and all
the rest. So this book comes out then, and that
we're planning a big national tour. We're getting our first
reviews now. Kirkus gave us a start review at his
top ten percent, and I'm going to print a ton
of these things, a record number for me. So hopefully
you guys get it as not written as a leadership book,
but you're gonna see a lot of leadership lessons in there.
(29:28):
The captain of the ship actually was a great leader.
There's some blind spots that night, unfortunately, but the guys
loved him, and one of the blind spots might have
been they loved him so much and they respected him
so much. I'm not sure if they were able to
give him bad news. So that can be a blind
spot there as well. Make sure people feel comfortable telling
you what you don't want to hear.
Speaker 5 (29:47):
What I felt like I became a better leader is
when that I really gained trust for my staff. And
it's funny because coaching in high school, often people don't
come to you initially. It's to your assistant coach, and
if you don't have that relationship, and almost every day
I was getting some bad news from my best assistant,
(30:08):
but so helpful because you're right, if you don't get
that information, you don't know when you made a great
point of bulls humblocker that he wanted to hear about problems.
Because he's the chief, lem's out right, he's got to
be able to help people do that. So I'm curious,
what would you recommend to a young leader that gets
the opportunity. Certainly in sports we do we get to
(30:28):
pick the people on our team, and in some situations
of business, you do get to pick at least some
people on your team. What advice do you give on
how to pick the right people for your team? And
you know what, when I throw out one thing, I'm
not looking for four foot two basketball players.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
All right, go ahead?
Speaker 5 (30:46):
Yeah, yeah, but I've always said that it usually it
was better when I'm about five ten, when I was
looking up when they were in a thirty second title.
Supposed if I'm looking down, that's probably not a good
signs Jack, not Jay anyway. Yeah, at that time, you
just followed. Although he's got it. He grew right past me.
He's six too. Now.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Yeah, I'll tell me. He still inspires me. I still
play that back all the time. That's too inspiring. Assistant
coaches one very simple point. Week leaders higher week assistance
and strong leaders hire strong ones. I can usually tell
before I meet the top leader how strong he or
she is by looking at their people, and if they're
yes men, yes women, and we can follow along and
(31:26):
yes ma'am, yes sir, and okay, I know what you're getting. No,
you want to hire the best possible people you can get.
My goal on the here On hockey team was to
be the dumbest guy in the coaches room, and I
greatly exceed him expectations. I had Rob Brown, who played
professionally in Sweden. I had guys who played at the
University of Michigan, which I was never close to, some
of the best defensemen in town. This kind of stuff,
(31:48):
and Urban Meyer, the great Ohio state coach, gave me
a great aligne. If I ask you a question, especially
between periods, zam Bunny's on the ice. You guys got halftime.
I got between periods, got about ten minutes. We shut
the door, we're in the coaches room. I'll ask you
a question. Don't answer my question with a question. We
don't have time for it. Give me your opinion and
back to bow. One of his great lines is, if
(32:10):
you had a better idea to win the game on Saturday,
don't tell me on Sunday. That's my advice. Here's the
caveat on one condition that once we're done talking here
and the door opens up when we walk out, I
am the head coach of this team. And if you've
got a problem with anything I'm doing, and you will's
that's gonna happen. You bring it, not to the players,
(32:31):
and not to the parents, and not to the Annaburnews,
and not to our friends at Fraser's Pub. Bring it
to me directly, and we handle it. And likewise the
funnel from the kids. I had a five or six
system coaches, which is three or four more than you're
allowed on the bench, and they're all none of them
got paid. Just wonder the people. Mike Lappert's lapper was
the star of our team. The book is dedicated to him.
A lot of reasonies. But man, I got somebody. They're
(32:53):
far more comfortable talking to a lot of assistant coaches
than they were to meet. And almost every asistant coach
had three or four favorites in the team, and the
player's favorite coaches was not usually me any fine, but
I get things from them I would never get otherwise.
And if that pipeline is shut down, I can't help
that kid. I'm yelling at a kid who's having a
(33:14):
bad day. Does not need me yelling at them, all right,
So that's what happens when you don't have the information.
So that man old cliche communication, a ton of funnel
back and forth gott to be you know what, I.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
Dell thean one least thing. How about as far as
picking the right players on your team.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Now, look, I'm not running a charity, as we say,
I'm not running Disney World either, So yes, talent is
one of the first things we look at, obviously, but
two points on that one. If you are talent but
not character. I cut some kids who were definitely good
enough to be on the team. Do I need that
cancer in my locker room? Not worth it? So that
(33:55):
did happen, sometimes, not too often. Usually the kid like that.
It's only ten percent were projects. Kids were town but
not the right attitude. The coach of the team was
strong enough I could get them going the right way.
If I can't, then okay this season, you won't be
your next season. Chances are that's your decision. But I
also took a couple guys, more than a couple who
were borderline, and that might be generous a talent front,
(34:18):
but I just liked it so much that I thought,
I want that attitude in my locker room. And one
of the great examples of that is Nate Raikuig And
don't worry, we can go a little bit past our
time here. That to nata Ekuige was our fifth string goalie.
I could get your attention because you only take three.
But I think what Ny would do. He came out
of my first year coaching. He's a sophomore at that time.
He's tall, and he's skinny, and he's weak, and he
(34:38):
slow and as he joked for the book, to inter
read all the players for the book, which made it
a pretty rich experience for the reader too. I think,
because you're getting these kids in their thirties now, they
have got perspective. And he said, let's face a coach,
I could not even stop a beach ball. How I
go for a goalie. I'll tell you what he did.
We'd finish our god awful relays, and these are brutal.
(35:00):
I did him to we all threw up in the
track at some point, a lot of hard work. He'd
grab a water bottle. When we're all dying of thirst,
he'd grab a water bottle and he wouldn't drink from it.
He'd pass it to the next guy who needed it more.
Who does that? I wouldn't do that as a high
school kid. I don't think I did as a coach. Frankly,
shame on me. Although I think he did pass out some.
But I'm no Nate. I thought I saw that that
(35:20):
is exceptional, that's extremely unusual. Let's find a way to
get that guy in. And got some lucky breaks. I
guess one of them was the senior goalie his ankle broke,
but one of them before the seasons, there's one spot
well have available for a couple months. We found a
way to split time with the four string guy. We
got them both in, and then second year he's the
thirst string goalie, and I didn't see a whole lot
of progress. But we're giving those same amount of attention
(35:43):
that we're given the starters, same amount of shots, same
amount of coaching, same amount of encouragement, all these things.
And the two goes ahead were very good goalies and
good guys. I like them both very much. One's a
hot shot doctor now done very well. But they didn't
like each other at the breast they're down. It's like
a quarterback controversy in football. This is not healthy. And
I can't get mad at them for letting the puck in,
(36:05):
but I can get mad at them for not supporting
their teammates. So I put Nate in against one of
our best opponents. We've never beaten them in twenty years.
I had twelve the defensemen in the coach's room. I
shut the door. I said, you guys love Nate, right,
Oh god, we love Nate. So I'm starting them tonight.
We love Nate. How much do you love Nate? Yeah?
All right? Act as look pulled the goalie block every shot,
(36:25):
two guys back all night long. I don't care we
score a goal. Nate's got to survive this night. And
it could be ten nothing, twelve nothing, final score here
on five gross points South, one of the best teams
in the state. Three and I have no idea. What
the hell happened that night? Yeah, the coach was very generous.
He said, I see a coach with a clear system,
and his players have bought into a system. You see
(36:46):
a lucky ass coach. Is what you do. We're in
my French But what happened and the lesson there is
water all the plants and watch who grows. You don't
know who's gonna grow, how fast, how far. But I
do know if you don't water them, then gonna grow
your job. Get out of the prediction business. We do
this way too much in leadership. This guy's gonna make it.
(37:07):
This guy's nut. How do you know, j Mac, is
that John call them Jason McIlwain, tell me you predicted
that night he said, this guy's gonna can a bunch
of them. Three of the place's gonna go nuts, and
you're gonna be a national TV year round. If you
told me that before the game, I'd say, you, sir,
are insane. Why is he even gonna get into the game.
Let's back that one up, So water up the plants.
(37:27):
But McElwain knew going into that game, Coach, that you
had his back. He knew that his teammates had his back.
He felt loved, he felt supported. I'm gonna get a
choked U right now telling your story, right, felt love, supported,
The crowd is on his side. He felt all of that.
Without that going in is not gonna work. So give
them all that's watering the plants and then see what
(37:48):
happens and my players chapter six, let them surprise you.
My player surprised me all the time, and I know
yours did too, and you don't see it coming. But
that's the happy accidents you get in a prier culture.
Speaker 5 (38:01):
John, just say one thing, is that he said some
powerful things. There is that when I talked to people
because I hit other team managers. But Resa, I gave
him a shot. And first of all, I twito for
the team three consecutives. I never had a kid do
that before they did make the team. Number two is
he did everything for us. He always came to this
(38:24):
early heath, so he deserved an opportunity. The reason I
gave him a chance is because he deserved it.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Guy in our team, Rahp Demiro, came out for the
team three times. He was overweight. I cut him the
first year, good player, but overweight. Second year came to
all the workouts, same thing. I come him again thirty years,
about to come again. And he came into my office
with a sheet typed out, computerized and so on. And
I said, what's this? Because you don't walk into my
office during tryouts. I don't know any of you. No
(38:51):
one's in his locker room, no one's in the spot yet,
et cetera. His plan for losing weight and it says
and all the usual stuff. And number six was file
the five piece and I said, okay, I'll bite. What
are the five piece? His poor preparation of his poor performance. Okay,
let's prepare. I laughed at that one, thinking to myself,
kidd has made the team and I didn't say it then,
and I made the team. He end up losing eighty pounds.
(39:13):
He scored at one of our worst one of our
toughest opponents, scored the winning goal as our arch rival.
All this stuff, But you know what, you came a
team three times. You had this sheet. You're dead serious.
That's how you got the shot. That's great and I
did not know that about macaloy in the background. That's
really cool.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
So one of my biggest takeaways here, and something I'm
still trying to wrap my head around, is that you John,
you Bacon, got advice from urban Meyer and you actually
took n Well, what is this? Is this the leadership
lesson too? About respect for your rivals?
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Yeah? Mind, I'm not the Misigan football coach that might
have changed his attitude towards me. That was book called
Fourth and Long is the bestseller on college football. Urban
Meyer was great with me and Misikon fans hated when
I say that, but he was and he is utterly straightforward,
and I liked that. What do you want to hear it?
Or not. Boy, he was direct and I admired that too.
Look another mistake leaders make your predecessor, you shut out.
(40:08):
That happens all the time. It's the eighty ninety percent,
I think, by my estimation. Why wouldn't you talk to
the person who had the job before you? For me?
It was there twenty two and three, and as I
said in the book, did not go to the senior
banquet the year before salt in a lot of tears
and so on. So what he had done the job
for ten years, He knew things that I didn't know
about the players I was going to coach. We were friends,
(40:30):
We still are friends. Somebody I do respect absolutely. Why
not sit down in three or four hours, a few
beers and a lot of notes. I can agree or disagree,
doesn't matter. I don't have to do what he says,
all right, But why wouldn't you find out so urban Meyer? Heck, hey,
guys had big trunky rings. Why wouldn't I ask him
what he thought about that? Get help, get help, and
especially from the people who came before you, and show
(40:52):
respect for your history. I'm amazed, very rare. Does any
coach ever reached out to me? Dude? I got a book.
I'll help you e for free. I charge people for
this stuff. But and that's fine, that's their decision. I'm
not gonna have. It's got to be a one way street.
You can't impose it on them. But I'm amazed how
rarely leaders reach out for help from people who are
(41:13):
eager to give it. And you don't have to take
their advice. But why not hear it?
Speaker 5 (41:18):
Real quick story, So, my first coaching job at varsity level,
we won one game coaching it asked me not to
come back. But my second job, it was a small school.
I was from a big town and when I took over,
there was one coach in the league and all the
coaches in the league hated him because won all the time.
I became his best friend because I was like, this guy,
(41:40):
he's doing that fight out and he gave me so
much wisdom. But you are so right afraid to reach out.
And you know what, for most I think good leaders,
they feel like that's a compliment to be asked.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Absolutely, Gina Orion. Of course, the imagine you're a Yukon coach,
one of the greatest coaches of all time any sport,
right him Barnjerico is the women's coach here at Michigan.
She was at Saint John's and they finally beat Yukon
in a game. On the bus home, Gina Oreano calls
up her to congratulate her on the win and how
it's going to be a helpful to their program and
(42:14):
helpful to the league. I don't know if I'm pulling
that one off. I'm looking my orlans probably, but great
leaders respond, and you know why everyone else is afraid
of this guy? Why not find out? When we had
a chance at a state title my third year, I
reached out to Brian Townsend. He's the boys basketball coach
at Edburgh Pioneer. With Levelle Blanchard and up being a
(42:34):
big star. They wanted to state title a couple of
years earlier. I said, Okay, it's only six games to
a state tournament. Walk me through it. What do I
focus on? He gives me great advice. It's basketball versus hockey.
It's the same stuff. You want to stay title and
I haven't. What don't I know what am I missing?
And he gave me some great advice.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
It's gonna say, John, we do want to just ask
quickly where people can find out more about you.
Speaker 5 (42:56):
Let them lead, and then also grab your.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Upcoming book come out next month. Sure, let them lead
us right here. The subtitle is accurate Unexpected lessons in
Leadership from America's worst Tis Goo Hockey team. One problem
I didn't have, and I credit the seniors, especially on
that team. I didn't have dissension on the ranks. There
are three or four clicks in that team, as they're
going to be different crowds and so they're not alway
gonna have the same interest. But they were unified. They
(43:20):
were not playing fingers and that was a senior class beforehand.
But anyway, that is let them Lead by Bacon dot com.
That's the book, that's the podcast that coach Johnson better
understand he's gonna be on that one pretty soon. I
guess my great ones, including some Hall of famers and
other folks like that, Red Barns and the Michigan hockey
coach and NHLers corporate CEOs, really cool stuff. Carol Hutchins
(43:43):
is the great softball coach at Michigan, others and John
Youbacon dot com, John Youbacon dot com, Johnathan h Sorry John,
And that's what you all have to get this book,
The Gales of November. It's on Amazon right now, it's
on the Nordon website, independent bookstores and on They all
got it. So that comes out October seventh, and if
not a bestseller, my boss is gonna be very uhappy
(44:05):
with me. You've had seven of them.
Speaker 5 (44:08):
I'm pretty sure your odds are pretty good.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
You let them lead by Bacon dot com, John Ubacon
dot com. All that info in the show notes below,
So go grab those books if you want more, John,
you bacon, because of course you do. They say bacon
makes everything better. Our mornings have been made a lot
better by talking with you today than no guilt calorie free.
So thank you doing for your time today. We cannot
thank you enough. We really appreciate you stopping by.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
It's very kind, gentle, And on one very important point,
we just had a lot of fun, didn't we love
It has to be fun, and every day is not
gonna be fun, and some things are just gonna plane suck.
If you're leading courteously, you have make some horrible decisions
and you got to make them. And the MADD's got
to come from you, whether it's to an individual or
to the and as I say, when you become the
(44:53):
head coach or the CEO or the department head or
whatever else you're doing with the principle, when you're the assistant,
you're everyone's favorit uncle or aunt and everyone you know,
we're in bed with the coach or the head coach.
To guess what you're the mom or the dad is
a little bit different. You're not the cool one anymore.
With the assistance are the cool ones. But nonetheless, it
has to be fun. It has to feel good. Not
(45:15):
all the time, nothing is all right, but a fair
amount of the time. Find ways to have fun, find
ways for humor. If you don't do it, you're not
gonna make it. It's too hard. You need water, the
desert is hard. You need pack water, pack at lunch packs,
some magazines to read, whatever you need. You got to
make it fun. This was fun, and I knew that
(45:37):
we were doing the right things when the guys look
forward to coming to the rink without that man, and
we had that going in February. That's late in the
season for us. If my team is not sick of
each other, and my team is not sick of the sport,
and your team is both you're probably gonna lose. And
the one rule. Here's one rule. I said it in
the book, the one rule I broke. We were very
good about the rules. We followed rules of other teams.
(45:58):
I know, didn't we knew that going into certain games,
about recruiting and things like this, all this business. But
one rule I did break every year, and I'd do
it again. The way the state works probably New York too,
but the state works is once the season is over,
once you're out of the playoffs, you can't have another
practice and so on. Hockey, unlike baseball and basketball, we
rent that ice, and that ice is expensive. It's reading
a buck. Some practice not cheap. So man, we already
(46:21):
have it Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, we're out of the playoffs.
And I told the guys the ice is available. You
can do what you want. You don't have to do anything,
but you want to play, you can. It's not a practice.
I wasn't trying to get it better just and okay,
we just lost a heartbreaking game in overtime. Totally sucks.
All the guys came back the next day and all
the guys wanted to play, and some guys are playing
goal you weren't goalies, and so on and so forth.
(46:42):
But they weren't sick of the game, and they weren't
sick of each other. And I thought, you know what,
I'll take that over a playoff win anytime. If your
guys don't cry at the bank, what something's wrong, it
should be hard to let go. My kids in third grade,
we got our last Pittsfield Township machine pitch third grade
baseball game tomorrow night. And he's already getting sad about it.
(47:02):
Yet I think there's more baseball in front of you. Yeah,
for a lot of years, that's more retire jersey in
the ceremony. I'll but it's gotta mean something, and it's
got to feel good. And really, the end of the day,
I got my grabs, you got yours. But that's lead
to the heart, and if you don't have that, not
much else is gonna go right.
Speaker 4 (47:21):
Thank you for joining us this week at the Limitless
Leadership Lounge. To listen to this episode again and to
find previous episodes, check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
and Spreaker. You can also get in on the conversation
find us on Facebook and Instagram. Then tell three of
your friends to join it as well. Coach Branuma and John.
We'll be back again next week for another try generational
(47:43):
leadership discussion. We'll talk to you then on the Limitless
Leadership Lounge
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!