October 22, 2025 • 46 mins
How do you help people truly see your vision and unlock leadership potential?
This week, we explore game-changing visual leadership strategies with Todd Cherches. He's the CEO of Big Blue Gumball, leadership expert, adjunct professor at NYU and Columbia, and author of Visual Leadership.
Todd reveals how:
Whether you lead a team, organization, or simply want to sharpen your impact, this episode shows how visual clarity can take your leadership, and storytelling, to the next level.
Connect with Todd: https://www.toddcherches.com/
Visual Leadership Book: https://www.amazon.com/VisuaLeadership-Leveraging-Visual-Thinking-Leadership/dp/1642933376
This week, we explore game-changing visual leadership strategies with Todd Cherches. He's the CEO of Big Blue Gumball, leadership expert, adjunct professor at NYU and Columbia, and author of Visual Leadership.
Todd reveals how:
- Visual thinking shapes how leaders see the world and communicate vision
- Translating complex ideas into visual metaphors empowers better team alignment
- Tailoring communication across cultures and generations unlocks connection
- Mastering storytelling and metaphor expands influence beyond words alone
- Powerful questions combined with reflective listening build trust and engagement
- Leadership demands balancing detail orientation with big-picture vision
- Tools like mind mapping, storyboarding, and simple visual props boost clarity
Whether you lead a team, organization, or simply want to sharpen your impact, this episode shows how visual clarity can take your leadership, and storytelling, to the next level.
Connect with Todd: https://www.toddcherches.com/
Visual Leadership Book: https://www.amazon.com/VisuaLeadership-Leveraging-Visual-Thinking-Leadership/dp/1642933376
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better
podcast network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the podcast to
get you there. You can find out more at teefbetter
dot com slash podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
There's the saying that things are twice created, once in
our mind and once in reality. Right, So visual leadership
helps to flarify our mind so we can communicate it
more effectively. There's no one size fits all tool for anything,
so the more tools you have in your jewel kit,
the more flexible you'll be inadaptable to different people in
different situations. There are leadership lessons hid the and plain
sight in every interaction with every person.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Do you want to be a leader in a constantly
changing world? Our emerging leaders look different, come from various
backgrounds and from all different age groups. Leadership is changing
and it's hard to keep up. But the good news
you can be.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
A leader too.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
You can be an emerging leader. Welcome to the Limitless
Leadership Lounch, a try generational conversation for emerging leaders. Come
spend some time with us discuss leadership from three angles.
The coach Jim Johnson, the professor, Doctor Reneuma Kareem, the host,
John Gering, a monthly guest and you get in on
(01:12):
the conversation on Facebook and Instagram and be sure to
follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Speaker. So come
on in and make yourself comfortable.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
We've already gotten some great leadership insights from our guests
today before we hit record, and that's why I'm like,
we got to hit.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
Recording it all this on tape.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
I'm John Garret.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
This is the little Bitless Leadership Lounge. Joined is always
by coach Jim Johnson, doctor renew Mcareem coach you've brought on.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Todd Churches today.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Let's introduce him and dive right in.
Speaker 5 (01:39):
Yeah, I've gotten a chance to talk to Todd and
I'm really excited. And also I get a chance to
read this great book which certainly delve into some of
that as well. So Todd Churchis is the CEO and
co founder of Big Blue Dumble, LLC and innovative New
York City based man management and leadership consulting, training executive coaching.
(02:00):
Big Blue gumbles panded visual Leadership methodology leverages the power
of visual thinking and visual communications to equip and able
and empowered business professionals of all levels to maximize their performance,
their priddivity and their potential. A three time award winning
EDGUNCT Professor of Leadership at NYU and a lecture on
(02:23):
leadership at Columbia University. Todd is also a ted X speaker,
a member of the Marshall Goldsmith one hundred Coaches, and
was the eighth global finalist for the Thinky Distinguished Achievement
Award in Leadership in twenty twenty one. And also I
had the pleasure and will delve into some of the
great book Visual Leadership by our good friend here now
(02:45):
Todd Churches. So Todd, welcome to the Womenless Leadership Lounge.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I have your book as well, so I will I
will come up in a conversation both sports fans, basketball,
baseball centers. And nice to see you again and nice
to meet renew my johnat.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
You know what I'm going to delve in because we
can go a lot of diffra angles, but because of
the uniqueness of your title, your book, Visual Leadership, let's
delve into that. You tell us about what the what
do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Sure? Very simply visual leadership, which if you look at
the word the woughy it's spelled on the top of
my buckets one six. People don't notice it. That's part
of the visual thinking. We don't always notice everything might
tell of us. It's spelled with one word with a
shared capital L, which represents the fact that who we
are and how we lead is inseparable from the lens
through which we see the world. We talk about leadership,
we're always talking about vision. What's your vision? What is
(03:33):
that picture in your mind's eye of a future state
that's better than indifferent from the car of reality, the
lens through what you see the world shaped. But as
a leader, and not everyone sees what you So part
of your job as a leader is one to formulate
that vision and too communicate that vision in a clear
and compelling way so that others can see it. So
I always say, my mother was, how do you get
(03:55):
people to see what you're saying? How do you get
the idea out of your head? As a coach, you
can additional play, but if you can't communicate it. And
that's why we use clipboard, the clipboard with the x's
and the o's and the map of the diagram of
the apport so other people could see what's in your head. Right,
if you trying to explain that verbally they may or
may not get it. And you caught here, you set
the pick here, but if you could see it on
(04:16):
the clipboard, then you can execute it. So there's a
saying that things are twice created, once in our mind
and once in reality. Right, So visual leadership helps to
clarify our mind so we can communicate it more effectively.
So in the essence, visual leadership is the application of
visual thinking to the practice of leadership.
Speaker 6 (04:34):
I hear you, Todd, because I'm a visual thinker. So
I do better because there are so many information nowadays
my phone email, and that is why when I had
something visually, if I write it down or have some
visual composition in front of me, I recall it.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Ben And not.
Speaker 6 (04:53):
Only that, I found out that visual leadership the first
time I was trying to plan community engage neighborhood block
party in Bangladesh closing the street. I had to convey
the message to the sponsors. So I had to collect
pictures from the New York festivals and this and that
and then give a visual presentation. And they were all
(05:15):
into that zone and wanted that for Bangladesh. So now
it has become like a regular yearly festival just because
I was able to give that visual vision to them.
So so thank you so much for bringing this book
to us and it will definitely help us. My question,
my curiosity is I was going through your tech talk
(05:36):
and in China. You went to China and you were
communicating with the chin workers there through through like pictures
or signs. If you were going to China and now
with the progress of technology innovation, what would be how
would you use the technology or what is different? Is
(05:57):
there anything differently you would do to those messages.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
One thing speaking of China, is my just translated into
Mandarin and be released in China later on this year.
In fact, they just sent it a last night with
a twelve hour time difference with China, so it's always
hard to some synchronized communication. So I'm just waiting to
hear about the blaunch date publication dates. The first thing
I do is make sure they get the Chinese edition
of my book. Don't really calculate. Let's there's billions of
(06:25):
people in China. If each one buys a copy, how
much took me. But regardless of the language, visuals helped
to cross cultural and communication lines because again, like when
I was over there in China. They didn't speak much English.
Some of them spoke no English. We didn't speak only
a few words of Chinese. I ended up picking up
a path and just drawing and sketching things and with
(06:45):
a lot of hand gestures, just like we use an
American sign language, right, So it's like we don't communicate
just in words, but in visual images, mental models, metaphors, storytelling.
But that's one of things my students in my class
love is my powerpoints flies are highly visual. I only
use a lot of texts because they even sell. My
students are international students from places like India and China
(07:06):
and other places. So visuals help people to see what
you're saying in the way that words alone don't. So
I think, yeah, So, whether it was back then or now,
I think just the value of speaking the language of
your audience as well. So that's something I learned over
the years. Is like, for example, I may use a
lot of basketball analogies when talking or metaphors when talking
(07:27):
to coach Johnson, but I may use baseball when I'm
here in the US, or football, although when you say
football the UK or somewhere else, they think soccer right
of thinking this football. When you say this, you say
the same word football, and people are envisioning two different
kinds of balls to playing fields, two different things. So
(07:48):
that's a valuable lesson is to speak the language of
your stakeholders. Use metaphors that they will resonate with stories
that they can relate to. So I think that's a
big part of my visual thinking approach is just teaching
people cream that awareness of yeah, I'll speaking my language
language was not translating it to their language.
Speaker 6 (08:06):
So yeah, the metaphor change from culture to culture.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So if you buy metaphors at a universal like tennis
is playing all over the world, right, so that's something
that's more universal, or using nature. Right if by saying
we need to get to the root of the problem,
branch out the new directions, Let's see which idea is
bear fruit. Let's I'm gonna go out on a limb here.
I'm using all tree related metaphors and we all may
be picturing a different tree, but we all know where
(08:31):
the tree is, right, so we could all those metaphors
will relate to anyone.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
And that's a good point too, because we just did
a episode about networking. Here just the three of us,
and we talked about I was thinking during the episode,
everybody smiles in the same language. So no matter what,
that's another one of those universal shoes, so to speak.
Tell us a little bit about some of the mistakes
that young leaders make that you've seen, whether it be
(08:55):
based on your visual leadership concepts or just based on
you've worked with a lot of youth at the universities
you work.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, there's all kinds of cultural differences. One of them
is generational, right, So different generations have different dialues, different lenses,
different language, different acronyms, different jargon. So I think some
things get lost in translation, like a couple a few
times students have sent me a text or an email
using an abbreviation and I literally go and look it
up because I didn't know what it meant. So think
(09:25):
and again, just like with the metaphors and the stories,
use language that you're listener, your reader, your stakeholder will understand.
So try you have to need to what I call flip.
This is not in my book. I came up with
a number of concepts after writing my books. Say ooh,
I wish it was in my book, but it's fine.
Call flipping the eye. Flipping the eye is about turning
that eye back on yourself one to look at yourself,
almost as if looking in the mirror. And also flipping
(09:47):
the eye to try to see the world through the
lens of others. Right, So, as a professor, I try
to see things through the lens of my students. As
an executive coach, I try to see the world through
the lens of my clients. I'm doing massmul of training,
I try to see it through the of other people
attending my programs. So I think that's the key thing
is just be aware and again teach other people to
be aware of speaking a comp trying to find a
(10:09):
common language that you can both speak and understand. I
once mentioned in my quest I asked a question there
was dead silence. I said, it's like sounds of silence
in here. So they wee no that song by Simon
and Garfunkle. My students thought Simon the Garfunkle was a
management consulting firm. Ye, there was no name recognition at
all there. So I'm like, I'm aging myself. So that's
an example of using a reference. Or I have a
(10:31):
thing where I do a session on metaphors. I say
life is like a box of blank with a picture
of Tom Hanks sitting on the bench from Forrest Gump.
My students have no idea. Life is like a box
of Kleenex tissues. Life is like a box of They
have no idea because a lot of them are international students.
They don't know Tom Hanks, they'd never seen Forrest Gump,
they don't know that quote. But even when I said
(10:53):
life is like a box of chocolates, in what ways
still blank silence. So it's kind of like the idea.
So you bite into U and see is it the
cherry or is it the marshmallow or whatever? We don't know.
So just like how is life like that for people
to know the movie, it's instantaneous for people who have
no idea what I'm talking about. Sometimes metaphorest can confuse
(11:13):
instead of connect. So again, with that awareness, customize to
your audience.
Speaker 5 (11:18):
Important, Ted, one thing that really cricked me up that
you weave through the book. So I'd love to if
you could share a story. Because you talk about all
the things you've learned about from bad bosses, you could
share a story about one of your bad bosses and
something you learned that you could share with our audience.
I think it'd be really fun.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Sure. Fortunately, I held the Ginness Book of World Records
for having bad bosses, so that's that's what I'm most
famous for. I don't think there's three industries that tend
to have toxic leadership. One is Hollywood, where I worked,
Another is Wall Street, where I also worked, and another
is Washington, DC, which is so in those three cultures
that Wall Street is New York, Hollywood is California, Washington
(12:00):
politics of Washington. So it's kind of like those that
triangle of tyranny of terrible bosses. It's gotten better in
some ways over the years, but yeah, when I worked
in Hollywood, I had many terrible bosses, one of whom
there's a chapter in my book. I think that was
chapter number I think it choice at the beginning of
like chapter five. It's called My love Letter to Horrible Bosses,
and I reposted as a blog post every Valentine's Day
(12:20):
because if it wasn't for the horrible bosses, I wouldn't
have gone into what I do today. That's what drove
me into management, leadership development and executive coaching because my
mission statement is trying to make to help make the
world a better place. One leader of the time, and
to me, everyone as a leader. Right, So that's my
foundational mission statement. But so one day I was working
out of a TV network. I won't say which one,
(12:41):
but as an eye as its logo, I heard my
boss's office drawer whip open. I felt something fly by
my head and she had thrown a box of pens
at me because they were not the ones she wanted.
So she wanted the medium points and I got at
the fine point. I actually ordered the right ones, but
the supply room sets up the wrong ones. But instead
of just saying, hey, Todd, thess not depends I want,
Can we exchange them? She flew. She flung open her
(13:03):
door through the box to me. It missed my ear
by an inch. The box broke up and the pens
went all over the place. In fact, still I see
someone coming at me with a paper mate. If I
have post stress disorder, I dive to the ground. But
again that taught me to be a more empathetic and
compassionate leader, to forgive mistakes, to put keep things in perspective.
She already depends on their deaths. Was this the end
(13:25):
of the world. Not at all, but that's how she
reacted to everything. Everything was a catastrophe. So another lesson,
don't catastrophize thing. Don't make mountains out of the mole hills. Right.
So again, all of these experiences shape who you are
and how you are as leaders, how you treat people.
I was used the Nelson Mandela quote, I never lose
either win or I learned, right, So even when you
(13:46):
don't win, if you learn something from it. So even
though that was a horrible traumatic experience, I learned from it.
And I'm still telling that story thirty years later, and
it resonates. And so when you see movies like The
Devil Wears Prada or Swimming with Sharks, all these movies
about horrible bosses, people are like, oh, that's exaggerated, that's
just Hollywood. I'm like, it's not exaggerated. I live in
and that's just one of many I've had of those
(14:08):
bad bosses. Yeah, So that's differs between being I do.
I spend a lot of work teaching the distinctions between
being a manager and the leader. Right, management and leadership
the two sides of a coin. So this is saying
you manage processes. You lead people right, hope you're managing.
That's about scheduling and budgeting and getting the right people
in the right seats on the bus, as Jim Collins said,
and goods are great, right, So that's management. Leadership is
(14:31):
about the people side. That's the vision, that's the motivation,
that's the carrying and the compassion and the coaching and
all those kinds of things. So we need to do both.
So if you're a good manager and you're better on
the management side of the ledger, focus on being about
a leader. And if you love the inspirational people side,
you may also need to work on your management skills.
And I was talking about two d's in my classes,
details and deadlines. I said, remember those two d's. If
(14:54):
you just read the syllabus right with all assignments, if
you pay attention to the details and you meet the deadlines,
you will do well in the class clads. You'll get
at least the B or B plus. To get the A,
you have to go ABCD, which is above and beyond
the fall of duty. You have to not just meet
the expectations, but exceed the expectation. So again, details and deadlines.
But if you don't meet, fulfill the details, and meet
(15:16):
the deadlines, then you're setting yourself up for failures. Not
whether that's in school, at work, or in life. Remember
those two d's. So that's one of the lessons I
teach to my students on day one and that helps them.
But one other metaphor I use when distinguishing between management
and leadership. Managers look through a microscope. Leaders look through
a telescope. So if you just let that visual metaphors
take in. When you imagine you're looking through a microscope
(15:38):
down into the details and deadlines you're looking for. That's
where you're managing projects, your task and execution focus. As
a leader, you're looking out to the stars, right, You're
looking far and wide into the future. And I always
say inther vators look through a feidoscope, right, which kind
of scrambles things up and helps you to see things
in a completely different lens. It just goes through metaphors.
And by looking through I need to look through a
(15:59):
micross scope, a telescope or fleidoscope. Right now, that's a
great lens. Because those of us who wear we all
wear glass. As it sames, all four of us are
wearing glasses. Your prescriptions off, you're going to get the
stolen view of things right. You will be able to
stairs or read the small print. You each have a
lens that it's the situation, and that's.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
You beautifully said. And I do agree that bosses make
a difference when you want to with your higher productivity
and performance. And I had my two or three shares
of bad bosses from where I learned and grew to
be a better leader, not to do things that they did.
So thanks for sharing that. And I think that we
(16:38):
are in the leadership role, are also in the position
of show and tell, and not only that, we also
look into the future self as you mentioned, like to
the telescope, so inner person, like how am I going
to grow as a leader? And often the pilots. I
think there are those videos on like how fighter pilots
will imagine them of flying before they're actually in the plane,
(17:02):
so they're visually imagining their flight path and everything. And
Nicholas Tesla would also imagine things before design the whole
thing in his brain before he brought it into reality.
So from your point of view, what is the what
is this power of internal visualization we can make other
people see, but Also sometimes we need to see it
(17:25):
for ourself also to believe.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, it's so important. I'll spend sports For example, I'm
i mentioned my softball team is playing in the playoffs.
If I'm the next spatter up, I'm watching the picture.
I'm seeing the situation. How many olts? Where are the
runners on base? So I'm visualizing. You go up to
the play with a plan, right, You don't just go
up to how is the picture? Throwing is? Its very
fast and very slow. So same thing basketball. If you've
(17:48):
shot enough free throws, you can often sometimes I practice
shooting free throws with my eyes closed right, see them
all through the hoop. If you've done it, it's muscle memory.
So all of these visual lots and Jim, you know
this more than I do. Right, visualizing the play play
out and John one talks about that as well, right
in advance, And again it doesn't always, but you also
need to improvise. You also need to one if things
(18:09):
don't go as planned, right, but you at least start
with a visualization. If you're going on a trip RAI vacation, right,
you visualize what are you going to be doing so
you can make the right choices. Are you going skiing
or are you going to a beach location? How you path
for your trip, it depends. So what you do is
you visualize the flight. Whether I need on the plane
when I get there and my own business meetings or
(18:29):
my out on the beach, you need to visualize in advance.
Otherwise you get there and you're on the beach and
you're wearing a snow gear. Right. So that's the thing.
So I love that example of picturing in your mind's
eye the future. If you're Walt Disney invented the storyboard technique, right,
So instead you'll just go and shoot the movie, you
map it out. You have a mind map to get
the ideas out of your head and onto a pizza paper.
(18:51):
Then you storyboard it so you can see sequentially how
domb something's gonna play out before you even put pens
of paper and eventually create the digital and everything else.
So in all these scenarios, we need to picture, we
need to create in our mind's eye before we start creating.
And that' secuting in the real world.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Yeah, and visualization, there's so many now studies talking about
the power of that. And also you talk about the
preparation through visualization too. That's another key concept is that
something you work with people on as far as once
you see the ball go through the hoop, it's now
more likely to go through the whole hoop, and those
kinds of things that many consider pseudo science. But there's
(19:30):
now a lot of real science to back it up.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yep. Sometimes I say people, I don't care about the science.
What works for you in reality. Right, there's a whole
There was all scandaled on. Amy Cuddy did a great
Ted talk, one the most popular ever about the power post.
So there was questions about the science behind her study.
But if you've ever done it, you know it works.
The idea behind the power poses before you take the stage,
I was, we'll going from backstage toime stage. Right when
(19:54):
you're backstage, if you stand tall, stretch, breathe, expand yourself
and say, if facing a bear in the forest, stand
tall and try to make the bear think you're bigger
than you are. When you do that, stand with hands
on hipsite superman, a wonder woman. You feel more powerful,
Like before getting up to bad it's awful. I stretch,
I hold the bat over my head. I there's the
same act as if I act as if i'mgither, I
(20:17):
will hit better than if I act as if this
picture is going to strike me out. So just getting
in that mental state of positivity, hope, optimism, you're just
more likely to be successful than if you do the
the opposite, right, So I think that's the key thing.
Like when I plan on my month, this is yeah,
I have an electronic calendar and if you can see
this those at watching on YouTube, this is my monthly calendar.
(20:37):
I keep this every year and every day. I also
have another calendar. When you physically write your body, it's
kinesthetic activity that downloads information from your brain through your
arm into your hand. That's why I send in my
students in my classes take notes by hand. Do not
bring your laptop to class because you're just taking dictation. Right.
If you're just typing up the words I say, you
(20:58):
don't need that jot down. No, to take notes, you
have to process it in a shorthand way and write
it down or even doodle or draw a sketch in
ways that you'll remember the information. Right. So why do
I keep this monthly calendar so I can visualize how
my whole month plays out, including weekends, and I get
a sense of flow in a way that a digital
calendar on your phone doesn't do the same thing. So again,
(21:20):
whatever works for you, find ways to You want to
see the future, not just ten years from now, but tomorrow.
Right What am I doing the night before I go
to sleep? I think about what do I have tomorrow?
What's on my schedule? Actually visualize how the day is
going to play out. And it doesn't always go one
hundred percent, but even if it's eighty percent of full
into plan. That's if you have a roadmap map out
(21:41):
and you're going to a strange place, if you make
a wrong turn, if you can visualize the map, you
know how to get back on the highway or whatever.
If you just have the linear directions, it's gonna be
a lot harder to get back to where you work.
And Alice in Wonderland, she asked, I guess she asked
the Chester Canada in Manhattan, which way should I go?
He says, where are you trying to get to? She says,
I don't really know that. Then it doesn't matter which
(22:01):
way you got. You'll have a destination in mind or
a vision, then it doesn't matter which way you got.
Which is fine sometimes too. Sometimes just wandering aimlessly, you
never know what you'll stumble upon. But if you have
a plan, if you have a deadline, then you want
to visualize the time and place and destination that you're
trying to get to metaphorically or literally.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
And it's a great point. I taught my player's visualization.
I think it helped them messy well. I will say
yesterday when I played John and tennis, I visualized beating him.
The realization must have been stronger than mine because he
beat me up pretty good.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Somewhere, so always could have been worse.
Speaker 5 (22:36):
But I got to ask you, I highly recommend your book.
I thought it was so comprehensive, with so many well
thought ideas that helped leaders. I got to delve into
one because I think it's difficult for leaders, and that
is can you share some ideas on how to give
feedback and also how to accept feedback?
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah? I talk a lot about feedback, feedback, like three
sixties of Manager is that's one of the things that
people get the worst feedback on is their ability to
get feedback. It's a challenge, right, So Marshall Goldsmith, in
this book, what you here won't get you there coin
the term feed forward, right, So feedback is information about
the past that we could learn from, but you can't
change the past. Feed Forward is of advice about the future. Right,
(23:18):
So if you just separate those two things past president
of the future, what happened already happened, right, don't beat
yourself up over it. Whether that's I think. I mentioned
in my book one of the Yankees players many years
ago struck out five times in one game, and announcer
asked the manager, Joe Tory, what are you going to
say to him? So I'm not gonna say anything. He
knows he's struck out five times. If he strikes outing
five times again tomorrow, then we have to figure out
(23:39):
a solution to the problem. But I don't need to
hit him over the head with something he already knows.
And that's always stayed with me. So feedback, the purpose
of feedback is future improvement, right. It's not to beat
people up. It's not to prove how smart you were
to make the other person roll. So, just from a
manage of the leadership perspective, realize what is the intention
of feedback? Also, what's the time and place? Right? Good
(24:00):
feedback may not be in the middle of a game,
unless it's mission critical right then and there, when you're
shooting your elbows too high or whatever. Save it for
after the game. There's a classic picture that I use
in on Teaching, coaching and feedback of John Wooden with
Kareem Abdul Jabbar, who at the time was Louel Sinzer,
and when they're talking to each other, it's completely They're
(24:21):
on the court, but it's completely empty, no fans, no
other players there the freamous standing there looking at him,
looking down at him because he's seven to two with
his hands on his hips, listening intently, and John wouldn't
standing there with his hands open. You could tell it
was an intense one on one conversation. So think about
with feedback, what is the right time, Whether is the
right place, is the person the right mindset? Ask permission?
(24:43):
Is this a good time I have some feedback for you?
Is this a good time to talk about it? Because
sometimes in the heat of the moment, that might not
be the best time, right. So think about all of
those things. There's a lot of different feedback techniques, one
of which that I write about and I call it
in the name of the chapter is in defense of
the feedback sandwich. The feedback say sandwich is a controversial
model because it doesn't work in all situations. Feedback sandwich,
(25:05):
very briefly, is start with a positive, the middle is
the constructive or critical, and the bottom bund is the clothes. Right.
So if I say to you, hey, you did these
things really well in your presentation yesterday. Here are some
things that you could have done better or could do
better next time. Hey, I know you can do this
if you put your mind to in your practice. I
just sandwiched that feedback in a feedback sandwich way. If
(25:28):
you only deliver the meat of the message metaphorically, then
all people here is the negative. If you only focus
on the buns and you want to be positive and optimistic,
you may not be giving people developmental or constructive feedback.
So it's like combination. It's the ratio that matters. Right.
So again, there's some people who hate the model because
it doesn't always work and it's meant not meant to
be flattery. Hey, so I love you new I love
(25:51):
that shirt you're wearing. By the way, the worst employee
I've ever had. There's not what it's meant to be, right, hey,
to you the worst employee I've ever had, and to
your last day. But hey, let's meet up for lunch
when you get you a new job. Right, But that's
not what we're talking about. We're talking about sandwiching now.
The fourth lead constructive feedback in between positives. Because people,
when you get feedback that feels critical, your morale deplied,
(26:15):
you feel hopeless, like you have that bottom bond, it
boosts up the other person's morales say hey, I know
you could do this right. That's so that's why Adam
Brand says he calls it the compliment sandwich. Some people
call it the crap sandwich. So when it's done in
a flattering way and manipulative way, then don't do it.
Don't use it. It's not a one size fits all. No
tool is one size fits all, right, depends on the
(26:36):
person's situation. But I always say, my wife says, we'll
take you clear the dinner table, put the dishes in
the sink. My wife could say, why do you always
leave the dishes in the sink. That's just the meat
of the message. And she says, Todd, thank you so
much for clearing the table. You left the dishes in
the sink next time, keep put it straight, put them
straight in the dishwasher, love you right? Which one is
(26:57):
going to get me to do it right? Which one's
gonna change my behavior? Which is what this is all about,
doing things better and differently and better than next time.
So that's what I'm saying about feedback. In terms of
receiving it. It's very hard not to be defensive and
feel hurt. But if it's done with intense and with
love and with caring and with the purpose of helping
you to improve for the next time, you're more receptive
(27:17):
to it. There's a plastic model by David Roth. He
created the scarf model, and I won't go into the
whole scarf model. But when you get a negative feedback,
if your boss or your coach says I need to
talk to you or step into my office, your body responds,
You're Amigdalah. In your brain the fight fly their fierce
kicks in. It triggers. It's a threat. Right. Feedback could
(27:39):
be seen as a threat or it could be seen
as a reward. So it's all about how you deliver
the feedback that really matters. Again, I can talk for
hours about feedback but those are key things to keep
in mind. It's about future improvement. It's not beating someone
up over something that they could no longer change because
they's already happened and tada.
Speaker 6 (27:56):
Because being in the leadership room, I have to give
fe feedback continuously, and one of the things that you
pointed out is specificity, not just being redundant, but being
specific of what feedback you are giving. And sometime majority
of the time I don't call my team in the
office or like face to face, giving them that kind
(28:19):
of aura. I have to talk to you just while
they were working. If something goes wrong, I will just
come over and gently point out, like what can what
they can do better, So not inviting them into the
office space, but just walking past or something like that.
What is your take? Is it okay to do that
those kind of feedback.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Feedback should be a conversation, not to be a dialogue,
not a monologue. So one of the best things I
learned when I first bekay years ago, I was always
even though if they'm a ted talk even though I
teach it to universities, even though I talk really fast,
I'm in New Yorker, I'm a tue introvert, right, most
people will not guess that. I was always terrified of
a terrible public speaking for most of my life, and
(29:02):
then I took Adele Carnegie course. For those who don't know,
death Carnegie is freamous boff How the wind friends and
influence people? Still a classic, at least almost one hundred
years later. Feedback is about the conversation. So when I
learned when I was took a Del Paranitie course and
I was offered the opportunity to become a Del Carnegie trailer,
whenever I presented my mentor Joe or Montano coinciddenly, I
(29:22):
just saw this past weekend. I've stayed in touch with
him over the last almost thirty years. I would ask
how did I do? And he would say, how do
you think he did? So before he even gave me
any feedback, he would ask me, no, I thought I did.
What's one or two or three things I did well?
And what's one thing I could have done differently or
better or will do differently or about the next time.
(29:43):
So if it comes from the person and you ask them,
then when you give them their feedback, in a lot
of cases, you're just verifying it. Or maybe you could
point out something that they didn't think of it didn't admit,
or that they missed. But try to have that ratio
of three to five positives. So what if he gives
people less if he has twenty things he did wrong,
or if I have student right paper and I don't say,
I really your research was good, your writing was good.
(30:04):
Here are some things that weren't great. But you start
with the positives. Because it's very rare that some one
alosto it did something really egregiously horrible. You could usually
find something positive to find, even if it was just
the effort, even it was just right. So start with
the positive, find something to build on. But point like
making the dialog, ask the person first what you what
they feel they did so at least lays the foundation
(30:26):
for it wasn't one hundred Very few things are one
hundred percent valure. Right, You'll find positives and then say, well,
one or two things that we could build on for
next time, and then over I always say success happens
not overnight, but over time. What if there's something just
giving some own feedback doesn't make them better at it
the next day, These are things we need to work on.
Over time. So I think that's the key thing too.
It's that realistic expectations and that it's a journey, not
(30:50):
the destination, and it's not going to happen five minutes
from now or the next day. You need to work
on things over time to make to build habits.
Speaker 6 (30:57):
Yes, I'll leave it with is there any tools you
talk about the calendar then mind mapping, So we have
those flow charge and stuff like that. What can you
suggest one or two tools that like business leaders or
leaders can use to effectively manage better.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
So me, the best tool we have is our pen, right,
So just you, I want to get things out of
your head and onto paper whatever. There's if you have
colored markers, that was on my colored markers with me
right now?
Speaker 6 (31:24):
Love my color markers.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, pending paper. But there's a lot of tools. There's mural,
there's mirror. There's a lot of digital tools as well
that I help for mind mapping or storyboarding. So again
I think that's the key thing. This is a big
question I often get. What if I suffer from ICD,
which is I can't draw syndrome? Right, what if you
are not a great artist, you could still communicate visually,
(31:46):
So In fact, I wrote an article for Ink Magazine
called Can You Draw What Your Company Does? I do
an exercise with business leaders where if they without words,
how would you explain what your company does, or what
your business does, or the biggest challenge you're facing. So
you get a big piece of flip chart paper and
a pile of markers, and they, without speaking of five
minutes to sketch out. Some people draw my map or storyboards.
(32:07):
Some people draw on the metaphors. Some people map out
their supply chain, whatever it is. Then other people could
see what you're saying. People could visualize what you're talking about,
in fact to real life example, I was doing this
for a group of twenty CEOs and one set to
the other. I've known you for fifteen years. I've heard
you talk about your problems until you sketched it out.
I never really understood these and now I get it now.
(32:27):
I could see the gaps, Now I could see the redundancies.
Now I can see how I can help you. So again,
get it out of your head. So pen and paper
or digital so you could use slides, use images, you
could use props. Like one of my clients was coaching clients.
I was coaching them on zoom, and he wasn't talking
about the main issue. And I said, ignoring the most
(32:48):
important thing. So I keep things on my desk first
of all, to remind me. You know, this keep reminds
holding up gumby for those listening now watch the Gumby.
Reminds you to be flexible. Sometimes you need to bend
over backwards to serve your client. I keep things on.
There's no magic wand solution. You need to actually do
the work. So I have all these things coaching tool
(33:08):
I use stop start, continue the traffic light and this
is a stress squeezable traffic light. Whether you need to
stop doing, start doing, and what there's some things that
you can can So I have all of these different
choies and props on my desk. I keep to remind
me of these models. One of my coaching clients was
talking about when I was at IBM in nineteen eighty.
I said, you think you're impressing your young employees. This
(33:29):
is what they think. If I keep this on my desk,
remind me to have like current examples and references. So
I use a lot of scient felt examples and quotes,
but a lot of my students don't know Scienfeld. They're
from other cultures and other generations, so speak the language.
So that's just a few examples of hundreds I have
all over my desk. But I think that's the key thing.
There's all these tools, but they don't need to be technology.
(33:50):
They don't need to AI is a great way. AI
could generate images. You could have conversations with AI. So
use AI and say, create an image of X, Y
and z, or describe it and see what it comes
up with and maybe right, it may be wrong. But
if you start with an image or a model or
a sketch, you can build on and improve it, and
you can show it to someone else and they can
help you make it better. But if it's just very
(34:13):
hard for people to see all nine mantras is that
people are not mind readers. I said that to my
dog yesterday, and I'm like, what do you want? I
wish you could just speak. You're five years old, speak
tell me what you want. I can't do. You want
to treat You need to go out of the thirsty.
But that's what it is. With a lot of times
managers will say or leaders will say, didn't you get
(34:33):
my memo? They said to memoil six months ago, and
someone does something, So, did you not read my memo?
Your memo? Have ten thousand emails I've gotten since that
challenge of leaders. I always say, we're not producing widgets,
we're not working on assembly lines. We are producing ideas,
and we are manufacturing words. Right through those words, we
get those ideas out of our heads and into the
(34:54):
world and into the heads of other people. So if
there's one skill people need to develop, it's the communication.
And visual thinking helps you to do that, to think
more visually and communicate more visually. So that's a technique
or methodology, But I think the key is just basic communication.
I get so many bad emails that take ten emails
to clarify what you've been talking about, or people. If
(35:15):
as a manager, you delegate to someone and they don't
produce what you expected or what you envisioned, whose fault
is that. One of the chapters of My Buck Jimmy
Mayor read ice, rice or mice. I went to a restaurant.
I asked for some ice for my drink. They brought
me I say, can I have some more ice? They
brought me a bowl of white rice. I needed ice.
(35:35):
They thought I said, rice, whose fault was that it
was mine? So what could I have done? I might
have picked up my glass and said it was I
could have if I pointed to it and I said,
can I have some ice for my soda? They that
pointing would have communicated, oh, he needs ice. But the
fact that I had rice and I say can I
have some more ice? They hurt the way they heard
the word rice. So again, it happens all the time,
(35:57):
and that's just I needed more rice. Anyways, the big deal.
But people, can I talk about a mistake that happened
one of my company a project I was managing the
cost of the company about two hundred thousand dollars because
we misheard something that the client said that they wanted
because it wasn't communicated visually, and we did the wrong thing,
and we other we do it. It cost a fortune.
(36:18):
So that's a real life example, much more expensive than
the four dollars bowl of rice.
Speaker 5 (36:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
Yeah, I think sometimes you need to communicate with yourself
visually too, because there's so much power in just being
in the right mindset in certain scenarios. We're in our
office and now because we're in our office, because we're
surrounding ourselves with these visual stimuli. Now we're in this
different mindset because of that. That's probably why so many
(36:44):
people working from home during the pandemic. Many people struggled
because they weren't in the environment that they typically associated
mentally with Work with progress, tell us a little bit
about how that works in your life, because I know
you mentioned about living in Connecticut and in New York
and the different environments that you work in. How do
you make sure that you were constantly surrounding yourself with
(37:08):
visually stimulating things that keep you in the right mindset.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, it's really through the head during the pandemic. But
right now, the hottest topics is the whole return to
office work from home hybrid conflict and challenge. Yeah, when
you're this concept called MBWA managing by walking around, right,
if everyone's in the office, the magic could stop by
everyone's desk and say, how's your day going, Pop into
my office, let's go grab some lunch. If people are
at home, you can't do that, right, So what the
(37:34):
equivalents of that. A friend of mine has daughter graduate
from college. She's had three different jobs, all of them remote,
so she's never met a person in person, right. So
she's been working first in her parents, in her base,
in there, in her whole childhood bedroom, and now in
an apartment. But it's not the same as meeting people
and being in the same place. And so much of
culture is the look and feel of the place that
(37:55):
you're in. Right, the what I used to do work
in the pharmaceuticals diagnostics come and they had signs and
motivational posters all over. One of them was called we
are they. So the attitude behind we are they is
don't ever say they won't let us do that? Or
they said we are all if we are all leaders
and we are the day that other people are talking
about what should we be doing right, what should be
(38:15):
how can we be communicating because otherwise you're parting the
finger or blame and everyone with this today. But it's
like you say, we are they, Let's think about that.
We are the day that other people are complaining about, right,
So what can we do to not be that way?
So that's a great point is that if you're not
I'm not saying that I love hybrid. I love working
from home. I do a lot of solitary work, so
I love being able to and I'm also on night
(38:36):
outl I do most of my work between ten pm
and two am. Those are my key hours of productivity.
So people get emails from me at three in the morning. Yeah,
Sometimes they'll get emails from people in London at three
in the morning my time here in New York, and
they're like, what are you still doing up? Or I'll
comments on someone's LinkedIn post or whatever, and I'm just
a night outl That's when I'm at my creative peak.
If you have to do anything creative before noon, forget
(38:56):
about them if the brain doesn't start. So just knowing
whether your peak hours of flow, your peak hours of creativity.
Realizing that not everyone everyone thinks and is at their
best between nine and five. Some people, you know, declined
in the afternoon. Some people hit this ride after lunch.
So just know that there's no one size fits all
for anyone or anything, And for a leader, you need
(39:19):
to realize that. See things through the lens of your
people and set them up for success. See what tools
they need. Are they getting the support. Some people need
a lot of feedback, Some people need and once just
a little feedback, right. Some people want to touch base
with their manager five times a day. Other people will
check in with you in two weeks, right, so know
what's again, this is all kind of communication, right, there's
all getting to know your people, what they need and
(39:40):
what they want and what works best for them. So again,
I think that's the key thing. There's no one size
fits all tool for anything. So the more tools you
have in your toolkit, the more flexible you'll be inadaptable
to different people in different situations.
Speaker 5 (39:52):
It's great, Hey, Tyder, I have one final question. I
do share a quick story with you, but I really
I just want to say really grateful to have your
wonderful insights today. My quick story is you'll appreciate that
being a college professor is the fact that I when
I was trying to finish my master's of my final project,
I was working with a professor that was my advisor,
(40:13):
and I got to be frank with you. Back then,
I was not a very good writer. But it has
gotten better. But the bottom line is my first copy
turned in there was more red than black when I
got returned, and so of course I was a little embarrassed.
But then I so I went through the whole thing.
I had my wife helt me he's a better writer.
And so we bought it and sent it in a
(40:35):
second time, and when I got it back this time,
there was even more reds.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
So I said, I intered me.
Speaker 5 (40:42):
Of course we ended going to the advisor. I said,
if you make all these corrections and I correct them all,
we should be making some progress. An interesting study on
feedback and how that one didn't work very well for me.
But my question, you had ten questions that leaders should
(41:03):
be able to answer about self awareness, and I love
the questions, or I courage people read the book. Can
you share one just to close off because I love
these questions.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Sure, you're testing my memory now. Sometimes people say something
to me. I'm like, oh, is that in my book?
I think, yeah. The typ questions get people to think
as leaders, I say, to be more self aware, ask
all these questions. One of them is just basically, how
do you personally define leadership? Because there is no one
definition of leadership, but a lot of times people when
they think of leaders, they elevate it to but needs
to be Abraham Lak you that needs to be Martin
(41:34):
Luther King Junior or Gandhi or a leader could be
your grandparent. A leader could be your parent. A leader,
could be a sibling, or a boss you had, or
your high school basketball coach a leader. So I say,
who are the you know, the public figures that you
admire as leaders, but also who are the private figures?
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Right?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
So think about that. There are leadership lessons hiding and
plain sight in every interaction with every person. It could
be the way or the bus boy in the restaurant.
It could be Sauwa was recently at the hospital stay
and he said to me, what got me through was
not the nurses of the doctors, but there was this
janitor who came around and he chatted me late at
night whether I was stressed and anxious and the loan
(42:15):
and made me feel better. So that janitor was a leader.
So again it's not about title, it's about being a leader.
And I know you mentioned I know you have in
your book there was a bookmark and one of the
things on the bookmark with servant leadership. And I've been
doing it. Just finished Robert Greenlea's book on servant leadership.
And I'm a big fan of Francis Hesselbob. She said
one of her famous quotes is to lead, to live,
(42:37):
to serve, is to lead, and to lead is to live.
That's one of her famous quotes. Right, as a leader,
ask yourself, is my job to serve? Or to be serves?
And I think if you have a servant leadership mentality,
your job is to help get the best in the
most out people and to help develop the next generation
of leaders. It's not about power and authority and ego
and you know how big your paycheck is. The best
(42:59):
leaders are remembered because they made other people feel like leaders.
So that's what I would say is think about who
are those people in your life that have made you
feel like a leader and help you to become the
leader that you are today.
Speaker 4 (43:12):
Very well said, perfectly said Todd. We can't get enough
of this stuff. We've read so many leadership books and
talk with so many great leaders, but we really think this,
the whole concept of visual leadership is unique yet so profound.
So thank you for all that you've shared with us today.
Tell us a little bit about what your future plans are.
We got some books coming up in the future that
(43:32):
we can look forward to.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Not right now, I'm gonna stick with this one. You know,
the people who have a starthy books. It dilutes the one.
So for right now, visual leadership is who I am,
what I am, and I'm gonna write it out and
it's coming out in China. It was just translating some
mandarins coming on China later this year. I think there's
a lot more that's focus on visual leadership. I might
come up with a paper back field Guy or workbook
(43:55):
one day that has the models and the tools in it,
without the stories to strip down to the worksheets anything else.
But it really is what this new semester is starting
right after Labor Day, so gearing up to the full
semester and my executive coaching work and I do a
lot of to manage the leadership training, team building off sites,
so it's all going to start again. So I just
want this summer and we relaxed and joying the summer.
By the time people are seeing this, it's probably summer
(44:17):
has already ended and we're well into the fall. It
really is about just moving the ball over and spending
the world about See that's a oh one last thing.
I had all of these basketball metaphors that we use
in everyday life. A layup something easy, right, a slam dunk,
one hundred percent guarantee, full court press, jump ball, no harm,
no foul, run out the clock shot, an air ball
(44:39):
or an alley oop right, calling someone a chucker or
n one or a buzzer beather right, just for Jim
coach and I came up with all these, whether some
basketball metaphors or terminology we use in everyday life, think
about that, whether the metaphors you use, and try to
expand your metaphorical vocabulary to a lot of times we
stick with what we know and what we like. But
if you want to reach more people, well you need
(45:00):
to speak their language. So try to come up with
more metaphors and analogies and stories that will resonate with others.
I'll just leave you with I could talk for hours
as you can tell great talking to all of these.
I wore my NIXT shirt today because I was in
the basketball frame of mind. But thank you again for
having me this.
Speaker 6 (45:15):
Thank you, it was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
Thank you Todd.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
You're a coach as a Marshall Goldsmith one hundred coach.
Also you coach executives. You teach students what is the
best way for someone to get in touch with you?
Learn more about your coaching programs.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
Sure speak of Marshall Goldsmith's hundred Coaches. I have to
give a shout out to Scott Osmond and jeff Lyn
Wayne who were on your show, which is how I
found Coach Gim in the first place. So if it
wasn't for them in that conversation, I wouldn't have even
discovered you. So thanks. You need to acknowledge them and
Marshall Goldsmith as always. But yeah, the best way to
find me connect with me on LinkedIn. Just say you
saw me on the show, Happy to continue a conversation,
(45:51):
or check out my website at Tauchurches dot com. I
also Big Boogunball dot com, which is my business website,
but go to tow Churches dot com learn more about
my buck and check out my tut talk. That's the
best way to learn more. Let's start your journey to
becoming a better visual leader waks down.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
In the show notes, Tom Churches dot com and Todd
Churches on LinkedIn. Thank you Todd for your time today
and go next.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
Thank you for joining us this week at the Limitless
Leadership Lounge. To listen to this episode again and to
find previous episodes, check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
and Spreaker. You can also get in on the conversation.
Find us on Facebook and Instagram, then tell three of
your friends to join in as well. Coach Brnuma and John.
We'll be back again next week for another try generational
(46:33):
leadership discussion. We'll talk to you then on the Limitless
Leadership Lounge
This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better
podcast network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the podcast to
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dot com slash podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
There's the saying that things are twice created, once in
our mind and once in reality. Right, So visual leadership
helps to flarify our mind so we can communicate it
more effectively. There's no one size fits all tool for anything,
so the more tools you have in your jewel kit,
the more flexible you'll be inadaptable to different people in
different situations. There are leadership lessons hid the and plain
sight in every interaction with every person.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Do you want to be a leader in a constantly
changing world? Our emerging leaders look different, come from various
backgrounds and from all different age groups. Leadership is changing
and it's hard to keep up. But the good news
you can be.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
A leader too.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
You can be an emerging leader. Welcome to the Limitless
Leadership Lounch, a try generational conversation for emerging leaders. Come
spend some time with us discuss leadership from three angles.
The coach Jim Johnson, the professor, Doctor Reneuma Kareem, the host,
John Gering, a monthly guest and you get in on
(01:12):
the conversation on Facebook and Instagram and be sure to
follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Speaker. So come
on in and make yourself comfortable.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
We've already gotten some great leadership insights from our guests
today before we hit record, and that's why I'm like,
we got to hit.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
Recording it all this on tape.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
I'm John Garret.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
This is the little Bitless Leadership Lounge. Joined is always
by coach Jim Johnson, doctor renew Mcareem coach you've brought on.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Todd Churches today.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Let's introduce him and dive right in.
Speaker 5 (01:39):
Yeah, I've gotten a chance to talk to Todd and
I'm really excited. And also I get a chance to
read this great book which certainly delve into some of
that as well. So Todd Churchis is the CEO and
co founder of Big Blue Dumble, LLC and innovative New
York City based man management and leadership consulting, training executive coaching.
(02:00):
Big Blue gumbles panded visual Leadership methodology leverages the power
of visual thinking and visual communications to equip and able
and empowered business professionals of all levels to maximize their performance,
their priddivity and their potential. A three time award winning
EDGUNCT Professor of Leadership at NYU and a lecture on
(02:23):
leadership at Columbia University. Todd is also a ted X speaker,
a member of the Marshall Goldsmith one hundred Coaches, and
was the eighth global finalist for the Thinky Distinguished Achievement
Award in Leadership in twenty twenty one. And also I
had the pleasure and will delve into some of the
great book Visual Leadership by our good friend here now
(02:45):
Todd Churches. So Todd, welcome to the Womenless Leadership Lounge.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I have your book as well, so I will I
will come up in a conversation both sports fans, basketball,
baseball centers. And nice to see you again and nice
to meet renew my johnat.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
You know what I'm going to delve in because we
can go a lot of diffra angles, but because of
the uniqueness of your title, your book, Visual Leadership, let's
delve into that. You tell us about what the what
do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Sure? Very simply visual leadership, which if you look at
the word the woughy it's spelled on the top of
my buckets one six. People don't notice it. That's part
of the visual thinking. We don't always notice everything might
tell of us. It's spelled with one word with a
shared capital L, which represents the fact that who we
are and how we lead is inseparable from the lens
through which we see the world. We talk about leadership,
we're always talking about vision. What's your vision? What is
(03:33):
that picture in your mind's eye of a future state
that's better than indifferent from the car of reality, the
lens through what you see the world shaped. But as
a leader, and not everyone sees what you So part
of your job as a leader is one to formulate
that vision and too communicate that vision in a clear
and compelling way so that others can see it. So
I always say, my mother was, how do you get
(03:55):
people to see what you're saying? How do you get
the idea out of your head? As a coach, you
can additional play, but if you can't communicate it. And
that's why we use clipboard, the clipboard with the x's
and the o's and the map of the diagram of
the apport so other people could see what's in your head. Right,
if you trying to explain that verbally they may or
may not get it. And you caught here, you set
the pick here, but if you could see it on
(04:16):
the clipboard, then you can execute it. So there's a
saying that things are twice created, once in our mind
and once in reality. Right, So visual leadership helps to
clarify our mind so we can communicate it more effectively.
So in the essence, visual leadership is the application of
visual thinking to the practice of leadership.
Speaker 6 (04:34):
I hear you, Todd, because I'm a visual thinker. So
I do better because there are so many information nowadays
my phone email, and that is why when I had
something visually, if I write it down or have some
visual composition in front of me, I recall it.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Ben And not.
Speaker 6 (04:53):
Only that, I found out that visual leadership the first
time I was trying to plan community engage neighborhood block
party in Bangladesh closing the street. I had to convey
the message to the sponsors. So I had to collect
pictures from the New York festivals and this and that
and then give a visual presentation. And they were all
(05:15):
into that zone and wanted that for Bangladesh. So now
it has become like a regular yearly festival just because
I was able to give that visual vision to them.
So so thank you so much for bringing this book
to us and it will definitely help us. My question,
my curiosity is I was going through your tech talk
(05:36):
and in China. You went to China and you were
communicating with the chin workers there through through like pictures
or signs. If you were going to China and now
with the progress of technology innovation, what would be how
would you use the technology or what is different? Is
(05:57):
there anything differently you would do to those messages.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
One thing speaking of China, is my just translated into
Mandarin and be released in China later on this year.
In fact, they just sent it a last night with
a twelve hour time difference with China, so it's always
hard to some synchronized communication. So I'm just waiting to
hear about the blaunch date publication dates. The first thing
I do is make sure they get the Chinese edition
of my book. Don't really calculate. Let's there's billions of
(06:25):
people in China. If each one buys a copy, how
much took me. But regardless of the language, visuals helped
to cross cultural and communication lines because again, like when
I was over there in China. They didn't speak much English.
Some of them spoke no English. We didn't speak only
a few words of Chinese. I ended up picking up
a path and just drawing and sketching things and with
(06:45):
a lot of hand gestures, just like we use an
American sign language, right, So it's like we don't communicate
just in words, but in visual images, mental models, metaphors, storytelling.
But that's one of things my students in my class
love is my powerpoints flies are highly visual. I only
use a lot of texts because they even sell. My
students are international students from places like India and China
(07:06):
and other places. So visuals help people to see what
you're saying in the way that words alone don't. So
I think, yeah, So, whether it was back then or now,
I think just the value of speaking the language of
your audience as well. So that's something I learned over
the years. Is like, for example, I may use a
lot of basketball analogies when talking or metaphors when talking
(07:27):
to coach Johnson, but I may use baseball when I'm
here in the US, or football, although when you say
football the UK or somewhere else, they think soccer right
of thinking this football. When you say this, you say
the same word football, and people are envisioning two different
kinds of balls to playing fields, two different things. So
(07:48):
that's a valuable lesson is to speak the language of
your stakeholders. Use metaphors that they will resonate with stories
that they can relate to. So I think that's a
big part of my visual thinking approach is just teaching
people cream that awareness of yeah, I'll speaking my language
language was not translating it to their language.
Speaker 6 (08:06):
So yeah, the metaphor change from culture to culture.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So if you buy metaphors at a universal like tennis
is playing all over the world, right, so that's something
that's more universal, or using nature. Right if by saying
we need to get to the root of the problem,
branch out the new directions, Let's see which idea is
bear fruit. Let's I'm gonna go out on a limb here.
I'm using all tree related metaphors and we all may
be picturing a different tree, but we all know where
(08:31):
the tree is, right, so we could all those metaphors
will relate to anyone.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
And that's a good point too, because we just did
a episode about networking. Here just the three of us,
and we talked about I was thinking during the episode,
everybody smiles in the same language. So no matter what,
that's another one of those universal shoes, so to speak.
Tell us a little bit about some of the mistakes
that young leaders make that you've seen, whether it be
(08:55):
based on your visual leadership concepts or just based on
you've worked with a lot of youth at the universities
you work.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, there's all kinds of cultural differences. One of them
is generational, right, So different generations have different dialues, different lenses,
different language, different acronyms, different jargon. So I think some
things get lost in translation, like a couple a few
times students have sent me a text or an email
using an abbreviation and I literally go and look it
up because I didn't know what it meant. So think
(09:25):
and again, just like with the metaphors and the stories,
use language that you're listener, your reader, your stakeholder will understand.
So try you have to need to what I call flip.
This is not in my book. I came up with
a number of concepts after writing my books. Say ooh,
I wish it was in my book, but it's fine.
Call flipping the eye. Flipping the eye is about turning
that eye back on yourself one to look at yourself,
almost as if looking in the mirror. And also flipping
(09:47):
the eye to try to see the world through the
lens of others. Right, So, as a professor, I try
to see things through the lens of my students. As
an executive coach, I try to see the world through
the lens of my clients. I'm doing massmul of training,
I try to see it through the of other people
attending my programs. So I think that's the key thing
is just be aware and again teach other people to
be aware of speaking a comp trying to find a
(10:09):
common language that you can both speak and understand. I
once mentioned in my quest I asked a question there
was dead silence. I said, it's like sounds of silence
in here. So they wee no that song by Simon
and Garfunkle. My students thought Simon the Garfunkle was a
management consulting firm. Ye, there was no name recognition at
all there. So I'm like, I'm aging myself. So that's
an example of using a reference. Or I have a
(10:31):
thing where I do a session on metaphors. I say
life is like a box of blank with a picture
of Tom Hanks sitting on the bench from Forrest Gump.
My students have no idea. Life is like a box
of Kleenex tissues. Life is like a box of They
have no idea because a lot of them are international students.
They don't know Tom Hanks, they'd never seen Forrest Gump,
they don't know that quote. But even when I said
(10:53):
life is like a box of chocolates, in what ways
still blank silence. So it's kind of like the idea.
So you bite into U and see is it the
cherry or is it the marshmallow or whatever? We don't know.
So just like how is life like that for people
to know the movie, it's instantaneous for people who have
no idea what I'm talking about. Sometimes metaphorest can confuse
(11:13):
instead of connect. So again, with that awareness, customize to
your audience.
Speaker 5 (11:18):
Important, Ted, one thing that really cricked me up that
you weave through the book. So I'd love to if
you could share a story. Because you talk about all
the things you've learned about from bad bosses, you could
share a story about one of your bad bosses and
something you learned that you could share with our audience.
I think it'd be really fun.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Sure. Fortunately, I held the Ginness Book of World Records
for having bad bosses, so that's that's what I'm most
famous for. I don't think there's three industries that tend
to have toxic leadership. One is Hollywood, where I worked,
Another is Wall Street, where I also worked, and another
is Washington, DC, which is so in those three cultures
that Wall Street is New York, Hollywood is California, Washington
(12:00):
politics of Washington. So it's kind of like those that
triangle of tyranny of terrible bosses. It's gotten better in
some ways over the years, but yeah, when I worked
in Hollywood, I had many terrible bosses, one of whom
there's a chapter in my book. I think that was
chapter number I think it choice at the beginning of
like chapter five. It's called My love Letter to Horrible Bosses,
and I reposted as a blog post every Valentine's Day
(12:20):
because if it wasn't for the horrible bosses, I wouldn't
have gone into what I do today. That's what drove
me into management, leadership development and executive coaching because my
mission statement is trying to make to help make the
world a better place. One leader of the time, and
to me, everyone as a leader. Right, So that's my
foundational mission statement. But so one day I was working
out of a TV network. I won't say which one,
(12:41):
but as an eye as its logo, I heard my
boss's office drawer whip open. I felt something fly by
my head and she had thrown a box of pens
at me because they were not the ones she wanted.
So she wanted the medium points and I got at
the fine point. I actually ordered the right ones, but
the supply room sets up the wrong ones. But instead
of just saying, hey, Todd, thess not depends I want,
Can we exchange them? She flew. She flung open her
(13:03):
door through the box to me. It missed my ear
by an inch. The box broke up and the pens
went all over the place. In fact, still I see
someone coming at me with a paper mate. If I
have post stress disorder, I dive to the ground. But
again that taught me to be a more empathetic and
compassionate leader, to forgive mistakes, to put keep things in perspective.
She already depends on their deaths. Was this the end
(13:25):
of the world. Not at all, but that's how she
reacted to everything. Everything was a catastrophe. So another lesson,
don't catastrophize thing. Don't make mountains out of the mole hills. Right.
So again, all of these experiences shape who you are
and how you are as leaders, how you treat people.
I was used the Nelson Mandela quote, I never lose
either win or I learned, right, So even when you
(13:46):
don't win, if you learn something from it. So even
though that was a horrible traumatic experience, I learned from it.
And I'm still telling that story thirty years later, and
it resonates. And so when you see movies like The
Devil Wears Prada or Swimming with Sharks, all these movies
about horrible bosses, people are like, oh, that's exaggerated, that's
just Hollywood. I'm like, it's not exaggerated. I live in
and that's just one of many I've had of those
(14:08):
bad bosses. Yeah, So that's differs between being I do.
I spend a lot of work teaching the distinctions between
being a manager and the leader. Right, management and leadership
the two sides of a coin. So this is saying
you manage processes. You lead people right, hope you're managing.
That's about scheduling and budgeting and getting the right people
in the right seats on the bus, as Jim Collins said,
and goods are great, right, So that's management. Leadership is
(14:31):
about the people side. That's the vision, that's the motivation,
that's the carrying and the compassion and the coaching and
all those kinds of things. So we need to do both.
So if you're a good manager and you're better on
the management side of the ledger, focus on being about
a leader. And if you love the inspirational people side,
you may also need to work on your management skills.
And I was talking about two d's in my classes,
details and deadlines. I said, remember those two d's. If
(14:54):
you just read the syllabus right with all assignments, if
you pay attention to the details and you meet the deadlines,
you will do well in the class clads. You'll get
at least the B or B plus. To get the A,
you have to go ABCD, which is above and beyond
the fall of duty. You have to not just meet
the expectations, but exceed the expectation. So again, details and deadlines.
But if you don't meet, fulfill the details, and meet
(15:16):
the deadlines, then you're setting yourself up for failures. Not
whether that's in school, at work, or in life. Remember
those two d's. So that's one of the lessons I
teach to my students on day one and that helps them.
But one other metaphor I use when distinguishing between management
and leadership. Managers look through a microscope. Leaders look through
a telescope. So if you just let that visual metaphors
take in. When you imagine you're looking through a microscope
(15:38):
down into the details and deadlines you're looking for. That's
where you're managing projects, your task and execution focus. As
a leader, you're looking out to the stars, right, You're
looking far and wide into the future. And I always
say inther vators look through a feidoscope, right, which kind
of scrambles things up and helps you to see things
in a completely different lens. It just goes through metaphors.
And by looking through I need to look through a
(15:59):
micross scope, a telescope or fleidoscope. Right now, that's a
great lens. Because those of us who wear we all
wear glass. As it sames, all four of us are
wearing glasses. Your prescriptions off, you're going to get the
stolen view of things right. You will be able to
stairs or read the small print. You each have a
lens that it's the situation, and that's.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
You beautifully said. And I do agree that bosses make
a difference when you want to with your higher productivity
and performance. And I had my two or three shares
of bad bosses from where I learned and grew to
be a better leader, not to do things that they did.
So thanks for sharing that. And I think that we
(16:38):
are in the leadership role, are also in the position
of show and tell, and not only that, we also
look into the future self as you mentioned, like to
the telescope, so inner person, like how am I going
to grow as a leader? And often the pilots. I
think there are those videos on like how fighter pilots
will imagine them of flying before they're actually in the plane,
(17:02):
so they're visually imagining their flight path and everything. And
Nicholas Tesla would also imagine things before design the whole
thing in his brain before he brought it into reality.
So from your point of view, what is the what
is this power of internal visualization we can make other
people see, but Also sometimes we need to see it
(17:25):
for ourself also to believe.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, it's so important. I'll spend sports For example, I'm
i mentioned my softball team is playing in the playoffs.
If I'm the next spatter up, I'm watching the picture.
I'm seeing the situation. How many olts? Where are the
runners on base? So I'm visualizing. You go up to
the play with a plan, right, You don't just go
up to how is the picture? Throwing is? Its very
fast and very slow. So same thing basketball. If you've
(17:48):
shot enough free throws, you can often sometimes I practice
shooting free throws with my eyes closed right, see them
all through the hoop. If you've done it, it's muscle memory.
So all of these visual lots and Jim, you know
this more than I do. Right, visualizing the play play
out and John one talks about that as well, right
in advance, And again it doesn't always, but you also
need to improvise. You also need to one if things
(18:09):
don't go as planned, right, but you at least start
with a visualization. If you're going on a trip RAI vacation, right,
you visualize what are you going to be doing so
you can make the right choices. Are you going skiing
or are you going to a beach location? How you path
for your trip, it depends. So what you do is
you visualize the flight. Whether I need on the plane
when I get there and my own business meetings or
(18:29):
my out on the beach, you need to visualize in advance.
Otherwise you get there and you're on the beach and
you're wearing a snow gear. Right. So that's the thing.
So I love that example of picturing in your mind's
eye the future. If you're Walt Disney invented the storyboard technique, right,
So instead you'll just go and shoot the movie, you
map it out. You have a mind map to get
the ideas out of your head and onto a pizza paper.
(18:51):
Then you storyboard it so you can see sequentially how
domb something's gonna play out before you even put pens
of paper and eventually create the digital and everything else.
So in all these scenarios, we need to picture, we
need to create in our mind's eye before we start creating.
And that' secuting in the real world.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Yeah, and visualization, there's so many now studies talking about
the power of that. And also you talk about the
preparation through visualization too. That's another key concept is that
something you work with people on as far as once
you see the ball go through the hoop, it's now
more likely to go through the whole hoop, and those
kinds of things that many consider pseudo science. But there's
(19:30):
now a lot of real science to back it up.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yep. Sometimes I say people, I don't care about the science.
What works for you in reality. Right, there's a whole
There was all scandaled on. Amy Cuddy did a great
Ted talk, one the most popular ever about the power post.
So there was questions about the science behind her study.
But if you've ever done it, you know it works.
The idea behind the power poses before you take the stage,
I was, we'll going from backstage toime stage. Right when
(19:54):
you're backstage, if you stand tall, stretch, breathe, expand yourself
and say, if facing a bear in the forest, stand
tall and try to make the bear think you're bigger
than you are. When you do that, stand with hands
on hipsite superman, a wonder woman. You feel more powerful,
Like before getting up to bad it's awful. I stretch,
I hold the bat over my head. I there's the
same act as if I act as if i'mgither, I
(20:17):
will hit better than if I act as if this
picture is going to strike me out. So just getting
in that mental state of positivity, hope, optimism, you're just
more likely to be successful than if you do the
the opposite, right, So I think that's the key thing.
Like when I plan on my month, this is yeah,
I have an electronic calendar and if you can see
this those at watching on YouTube, this is my monthly calendar.
(20:37):
I keep this every year and every day. I also
have another calendar. When you physically write your body, it's
kinesthetic activity that downloads information from your brain through your
arm into your hand. That's why I send in my
students in my classes take notes by hand. Do not
bring your laptop to class because you're just taking dictation. Right.
If you're just typing up the words I say, you
(20:58):
don't need that jot down. No, to take notes, you
have to process it in a shorthand way and write
it down or even doodle or draw a sketch in
ways that you'll remember the information. Right. So why do
I keep this monthly calendar so I can visualize how
my whole month plays out, including weekends, and I get
a sense of flow in a way that a digital
calendar on your phone doesn't do the same thing. So again,
(21:20):
whatever works for you, find ways to You want to
see the future, not just ten years from now, but tomorrow.
Right What am I doing the night before I go
to sleep? I think about what do I have tomorrow?
What's on my schedule? Actually visualize how the day is
going to play out. And it doesn't always go one
hundred percent, but even if it's eighty percent of full
into plan. That's if you have a roadmap map out
(21:41):
and you're going to a strange place, if you make
a wrong turn, if you can visualize the map, you
know how to get back on the highway or whatever.
If you just have the linear directions, it's gonna be
a lot harder to get back to where you work.
And Alice in Wonderland, she asked, I guess she asked
the Chester Canada in Manhattan, which way should I go?
He says, where are you trying to get to? She says,
I don't really know that. Then it doesn't matter which
(22:01):
way you got. You'll have a destination in mind or
a vision, then it doesn't matter which way you got.
Which is fine sometimes too. Sometimes just wandering aimlessly, you
never know what you'll stumble upon. But if you have
a plan, if you have a deadline, then you want
to visualize the time and place and destination that you're
trying to get to metaphorically or literally.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
And it's a great point. I taught my player's visualization.
I think it helped them messy well. I will say
yesterday when I played John and tennis, I visualized beating him.
The realization must have been stronger than mine because he
beat me up pretty good.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Somewhere, so always could have been worse.
Speaker 5 (22:36):
But I got to ask you, I highly recommend your book.
I thought it was so comprehensive, with so many well
thought ideas that helped leaders. I got to delve into
one because I think it's difficult for leaders, and that
is can you share some ideas on how to give
feedback and also how to accept feedback?
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah? I talk a lot about feedback, feedback, like three
sixties of Manager is that's one of the things that
people get the worst feedback on is their ability to
get feedback. It's a challenge, right, So Marshall Goldsmith, in
this book, what you here won't get you there coin
the term feed forward, right, So feedback is information about
the past that we could learn from, but you can't
change the past. Feed Forward is of advice about the future. Right,
(23:18):
So if you just separate those two things past president
of the future, what happened already happened, right, don't beat
yourself up over it. Whether that's I think. I mentioned
in my book one of the Yankees players many years
ago struck out five times in one game, and announcer
asked the manager, Joe Tory, what are you going to
say to him? So I'm not gonna say anything. He
knows he's struck out five times. If he strikes outing
five times again tomorrow, then we have to figure out
(23:39):
a solution to the problem. But I don't need to
hit him over the head with something he already knows.
And that's always stayed with me. So feedback, the purpose
of feedback is future improvement, right. It's not to beat
people up. It's not to prove how smart you were
to make the other person roll. So, just from a
manage of the leadership perspective, realize what is the intention
of feedback? Also, what's the time and place? Right? Good
(24:00):
feedback may not be in the middle of a game,
unless it's mission critical right then and there, when you're
shooting your elbows too high or whatever. Save it for
after the game. There's a classic picture that I use
in on Teaching, coaching and feedback of John Wooden with
Kareem Abdul Jabbar, who at the time was Louel Sinzer,
and when they're talking to each other, it's completely They're
(24:21):
on the court, but it's completely empty, no fans, no
other players there the freamous standing there looking at him,
looking down at him because he's seven to two with
his hands on his hips, listening intently, and John wouldn't
standing there with his hands open. You could tell it
was an intense one on one conversation. So think about
with feedback, what is the right time, Whether is the
right place, is the person the right mindset? Ask permission?
(24:43):
Is this a good time I have some feedback for you?
Is this a good time to talk about it? Because
sometimes in the heat of the moment, that might not
be the best time, right. So think about all of
those things. There's a lot of different feedback techniques, one
of which that I write about and I call it
in the name of the chapter is in defense of
the feedback sandwich. The feedback say sandwich is a controversial
model because it doesn't work in all situations. Feedback sandwich,
(25:05):
very briefly, is start with a positive, the middle is
the constructive or critical, and the bottom bund is the clothes. Right.
So if I say to you, hey, you did these
things really well in your presentation yesterday. Here are some
things that you could have done better or could do
better next time. Hey, I know you can do this
if you put your mind to in your practice. I
just sandwiched that feedback in a feedback sandwich way. If
(25:28):
you only deliver the meat of the message metaphorically, then
all people here is the negative. If you only focus
on the buns and you want to be positive and optimistic,
you may not be giving people developmental or constructive feedback.
So it's like combination. It's the ratio that matters. Right.
So again, there's some people who hate the model because
it doesn't always work and it's meant not meant to
be flattery. Hey, so I love you new I love
(25:51):
that shirt you're wearing. By the way, the worst employee
I've ever had. There's not what it's meant to be, right, hey,
to you the worst employee I've ever had, and to
your last day. But hey, let's meet up for lunch
when you get you a new job. Right, But that's
not what we're talking about. We're talking about sandwiching now.
The fourth lead constructive feedback in between positives. Because people,
when you get feedback that feels critical, your morale deplied,
(26:15):
you feel hopeless, like you have that bottom bond, it
boosts up the other person's morales say hey, I know
you could do this right. That's so that's why Adam
Brand says he calls it the compliment sandwich. Some people
call it the crap sandwich. So when it's done in
a flattering way and manipulative way, then don't do it.
Don't use it. It's not a one size fits all. No
tool is one size fits all, right, depends on the
(26:36):
person's situation. But I always say, my wife says, we'll
take you clear the dinner table, put the dishes in
the sink. My wife could say, why do you always
leave the dishes in the sink. That's just the meat
of the message. And she says, Todd, thank you so
much for clearing the table. You left the dishes in
the sink next time, keep put it straight, put them
straight in the dishwasher, love you right? Which one is
(26:57):
going to get me to do it right? Which one's
gonna change my behavior? Which is what this is all about,
doing things better and differently and better than next time.
So that's what I'm saying about feedback. In terms of
receiving it. It's very hard not to be defensive and
feel hurt. But if it's done with intense and with
love and with caring and with the purpose of helping
you to improve for the next time, you're more receptive
(27:17):
to it. There's a plastic model by David Roth. He
created the scarf model, and I won't go into the
whole scarf model. But when you get a negative feedback,
if your boss or your coach says I need to
talk to you or step into my office, your body responds,
You're Amigdalah. In your brain the fight fly their fierce
kicks in. It triggers. It's a threat. Right. Feedback could
(27:39):
be seen as a threat or it could be seen
as a reward. So it's all about how you deliver
the feedback that really matters. Again, I can talk for
hours about feedback but those are key things to keep
in mind. It's about future improvement. It's not beating someone
up over something that they could no longer change because
they's already happened and tada.
Speaker 6 (27:56):
Because being in the leadership room, I have to give
fe feedback continuously, and one of the things that you
pointed out is specificity, not just being redundant, but being
specific of what feedback you are giving. And sometime majority
of the time I don't call my team in the
office or like face to face, giving them that kind
(28:19):
of aura. I have to talk to you just while
they were working. If something goes wrong, I will just
come over and gently point out, like what can what
they can do better, So not inviting them into the
office space, but just walking past or something like that.
What is your take? Is it okay to do that
those kind of feedback.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Feedback should be a conversation, not to be a dialogue,
not a monologue. So one of the best things I
learned when I first bekay years ago, I was always
even though if they'm a ted talk even though I
teach it to universities, even though I talk really fast,
I'm in New Yorker, I'm a tue introvert, right, most
people will not guess that. I was always terrified of
a terrible public speaking for most of my life, and
(29:02):
then I took Adele Carnegie course. For those who don't know,
death Carnegie is freamous boff How the wind friends and
influence people? Still a classic, at least almost one hundred
years later. Feedback is about the conversation. So when I
learned when I was took a Del Paranitie course and
I was offered the opportunity to become a Del Carnegie trailer,
whenever I presented my mentor Joe or Montano coinciddenly, I
(29:22):
just saw this past weekend. I've stayed in touch with
him over the last almost thirty years. I would ask
how did I do? And he would say, how do
you think he did? So before he even gave me
any feedback, he would ask me, no, I thought I did.
What's one or two or three things I did well?
And what's one thing I could have done differently or
better or will do differently or about the next time.
(29:43):
So if it comes from the person and you ask them,
then when you give them their feedback, in a lot
of cases, you're just verifying it. Or maybe you could
point out something that they didn't think of it didn't admit,
or that they missed. But try to have that ratio
of three to five positives. So what if he gives
people less if he has twenty things he did wrong,
or if I have student right paper and I don't say,
I really your research was good, your writing was good.
(30:04):
Here are some things that weren't great. But you start
with the positives. Because it's very rare that some one
alosto it did something really egregiously horrible. You could usually
find something positive to find, even if it was just
the effort, even it was just right. So start with
the positive, find something to build on. But point like
making the dialog, ask the person first what you what
they feel they did so at least lays the foundation
(30:26):
for it wasn't one hundred Very few things are one
hundred percent valure. Right, You'll find positives and then say, well,
one or two things that we could build on for
next time, and then over I always say success happens
not overnight, but over time. What if there's something just
giving some own feedback doesn't make them better at it
the next day, These are things we need to work on.
Over time. So I think that's the key thing too.
It's that realistic expectations and that it's a journey, not
(30:50):
the destination, and it's not going to happen five minutes
from now or the next day. You need to work
on things over time to make to build habits.
Speaker 6 (30:57):
Yes, I'll leave it with is there any tools you
talk about the calendar then mind mapping, So we have
those flow charge and stuff like that. What can you
suggest one or two tools that like business leaders or
leaders can use to effectively manage better.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
So me, the best tool we have is our pen, right,
So just you, I want to get things out of
your head and onto paper whatever. There's if you have
colored markers, that was on my colored markers with me
right now?
Speaker 6 (31:24):
Love my color markers.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, pending paper. But there's a lot of tools. There's mural,
there's mirror. There's a lot of digital tools as well
that I help for mind mapping or storyboarding. So again
I think that's the key thing. This is a big
question I often get. What if I suffer from ICD,
which is I can't draw syndrome? Right, what if you
are not a great artist, you could still communicate visually,
(31:46):
So In fact, I wrote an article for Ink Magazine
called Can You Draw What Your Company Does? I do
an exercise with business leaders where if they without words,
how would you explain what your company does, or what
your business does, or the biggest challenge you're facing. So
you get a big piece of flip chart paper and
a pile of markers, and they, without speaking of five
minutes to sketch out. Some people draw my map or storyboards.
(32:07):
Some people draw on the metaphors. Some people map out
their supply chain, whatever it is. Then other people could
see what you're saying. People could visualize what you're talking about,
in fact to real life example, I was doing this
for a group of twenty CEOs and one set to
the other. I've known you for fifteen years. I've heard
you talk about your problems until you sketched it out.
I never really understood these and now I get it now.
(32:27):
I could see the gaps, Now I could see the redundancies.
Now I can see how I can help you. So again,
get it out of your head. So pen and paper
or digital so you could use slides, use images, you
could use props. Like one of my clients was coaching clients.
I was coaching them on zoom, and he wasn't talking
about the main issue. And I said, ignoring the most
(32:48):
important thing. So I keep things on my desk first
of all, to remind me. You know, this keep reminds
holding up gumby for those listening now watch the Gumby.
Reminds you to be flexible. Sometimes you need to bend
over backwards to serve your client. I keep things on.
There's no magic wand solution. You need to actually do
the work. So I have all these things coaching tool
(33:08):
I use stop start, continue the traffic light and this
is a stress squeezable traffic light. Whether you need to
stop doing, start doing, and what there's some things that
you can can So I have all of these different
choies and props on my desk. I keep to remind
me of these models. One of my coaching clients was
talking about when I was at IBM in nineteen eighty.
I said, you think you're impressing your young employees. This
(33:29):
is what they think. If I keep this on my desk,
remind me to have like current examples and references. So
I use a lot of scient felt examples and quotes,
but a lot of my students don't know Scienfeld. They're
from other cultures and other generations, so speak the language.
So that's just a few examples of hundreds I have
all over my desk. But I think that's the key thing.
There's all these tools, but they don't need to be technology.
(33:50):
They don't need to AI is a great way. AI
could generate images. You could have conversations with AI. So
use AI and say, create an image of X, Y
and z, or describe it and see what it comes
up with and maybe right, it may be wrong. But
if you start with an image or a model or
a sketch, you can build on and improve it, and
you can show it to someone else and they can
help you make it better. But if it's just very
(34:13):
hard for people to see all nine mantras is that
people are not mind readers. I said that to my
dog yesterday, and I'm like, what do you want? I
wish you could just speak. You're five years old, speak
tell me what you want. I can't do. You want
to treat You need to go out of the thirsty.
But that's what it is. With a lot of times
managers will say or leaders will say, didn't you get
(34:33):
my memo? They said to memoil six months ago, and
someone does something, So, did you not read my memo?
Your memo? Have ten thousand emails I've gotten since that
challenge of leaders. I always say, we're not producing widgets,
we're not working on assembly lines. We are producing ideas,
and we are manufacturing words. Right through those words, we
get those ideas out of our heads and into the
(34:54):
world and into the heads of other people. So if
there's one skill people need to develop, it's the communication.
And visual thinking helps you to do that, to think
more visually and communicate more visually. So that's a technique
or methodology, But I think the key is just basic communication.
I get so many bad emails that take ten emails
to clarify what you've been talking about, or people. If
(35:15):
as a manager, you delegate to someone and they don't
produce what you expected or what you envisioned, whose fault
is that. One of the chapters of My Buck Jimmy
Mayor read ice, rice or mice. I went to a restaurant.
I asked for some ice for my drink. They brought
me I say, can I have some more ice? They
brought me a bowl of white rice. I needed ice.
(35:35):
They thought I said, rice, whose fault was that it
was mine? So what could I have done? I might
have picked up my glass and said it was I
could have if I pointed to it and I said,
can I have some ice for my soda? They that
pointing would have communicated, oh, he needs ice. But the
fact that I had rice and I say can I
have some more ice? They hurt the way they heard
the word rice. So again, it happens all the time,
(35:57):
and that's just I needed more rice. Anyways, the big deal.
But people, can I talk about a mistake that happened
one of my company a project I was managing the
cost of the company about two hundred thousand dollars because
we misheard something that the client said that they wanted
because it wasn't communicated visually, and we did the wrong thing,
and we other we do it. It cost a fortune.
(36:18):
So that's a real life example, much more expensive than
the four dollars bowl of rice.
Speaker 5 (36:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
Yeah, I think sometimes you need to communicate with yourself
visually too, because there's so much power in just being
in the right mindset in certain scenarios. We're in our
office and now because we're in our office, because we're
surrounding ourselves with these visual stimuli. Now we're in this
different mindset because of that. That's probably why so many
(36:44):
people working from home during the pandemic. Many people struggled
because they weren't in the environment that they typically associated
mentally with Work with progress, tell us a little bit
about how that works in your life, because I know
you mentioned about living in Connecticut and in New York
and the different environments that you work in. How do
you make sure that you were constantly surrounding yourself with
(37:08):
visually stimulating things that keep you in the right mindset.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, it's really through the head during the pandemic. But
right now, the hottest topics is the whole return to
office work from home hybrid conflict and challenge. Yeah, when
you're this concept called MBWA managing by walking around, right,
if everyone's in the office, the magic could stop by
everyone's desk and say, how's your day going, Pop into
my office, let's go grab some lunch. If people are
at home, you can't do that, right, So what the
(37:34):
equivalents of that. A friend of mine has daughter graduate
from college. She's had three different jobs, all of them remote,
so she's never met a person in person, right. So
she's been working first in her parents, in her base,
in there, in her whole childhood bedroom, and now in
an apartment. But it's not the same as meeting people
and being in the same place. And so much of
culture is the look and feel of the place that
(37:55):
you're in. Right, the what I used to do work
in the pharmaceuticals diagnostics come and they had signs and
motivational posters all over. One of them was called we
are they. So the attitude behind we are they is
don't ever say they won't let us do that? Or
they said we are all if we are all leaders
and we are the day that other people are talking
about what should we be doing right, what should be
(38:15):
how can we be communicating because otherwise you're parting the
finger or blame and everyone with this today. But it's
like you say, we are they, Let's think about that.
We are the day that other people are complaining about, right,
So what can we do to not be that way?
So that's a great point is that if you're not
I'm not saying that I love hybrid. I love working
from home. I do a lot of solitary work, so
I love being able to and I'm also on night
(38:36):
outl I do most of my work between ten pm
and two am. Those are my key hours of productivity.
So people get emails from me at three in the morning. Yeah,
Sometimes they'll get emails from people in London at three
in the morning my time here in New York, and
they're like, what are you still doing up? Or I'll
comments on someone's LinkedIn post or whatever, and I'm just
a night outl That's when I'm at my creative peak.
If you have to do anything creative before noon, forget
(38:56):
about them if the brain doesn't start. So just knowing
whether your peak hours of flow, your peak hours of creativity.
Realizing that not everyone everyone thinks and is at their
best between nine and five. Some people, you know, declined
in the afternoon. Some people hit this ride after lunch.
So just know that there's no one size fits all
for anyone or anything, And for a leader, you need
(39:19):
to realize that. See things through the lens of your
people and set them up for success. See what tools
they need. Are they getting the support. Some people need
a lot of feedback, Some people need and once just
a little feedback, right. Some people want to touch base
with their manager five times a day. Other people will
check in with you in two weeks, right, so know
what's again, this is all kind of communication, right, there's
all getting to know your people, what they need and
(39:40):
what they want and what works best for them. So again,
I think that's the key thing. There's no one size
fits all tool for anything. So the more tools you
have in your toolkit, the more flexible you'll be inadaptable
to different people in different situations.
Speaker 5 (39:52):
It's great, Hey, Tyder, I have one final question. I
do share a quick story with you, but I really
I just want to say really grateful to have your
wonderful insights today. My quick story is you'll appreciate that
being a college professor is the fact that I when
I was trying to finish my master's of my final project,
I was working with a professor that was my advisor,
(40:13):
and I got to be frank with you. Back then,
I was not a very good writer. But it has
gotten better. But the bottom line is my first copy
turned in there was more red than black when I
got returned, and so of course I was a little embarrassed.
But then I so I went through the whole thing.
I had my wife helt me he's a better writer.
And so we bought it and sent it in a
(40:35):
second time, and when I got it back this time,
there was even more reds.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
So I said, I intered me.
Speaker 5 (40:42):
Of course we ended going to the advisor. I said,
if you make all these corrections and I correct them all,
we should be making some progress. An interesting study on
feedback and how that one didn't work very well for me.
But my question, you had ten questions that leaders should
(41:03):
be able to answer about self awareness, and I love
the questions, or I courage people read the book. Can
you share one just to close off because I love
these questions.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Sure, you're testing my memory now. Sometimes people say something
to me. I'm like, oh, is that in my book?
I think, yeah. The typ questions get people to think
as leaders, I say, to be more self aware, ask
all these questions. One of them is just basically, how
do you personally define leadership? Because there is no one
definition of leadership, but a lot of times people when
they think of leaders, they elevate it to but needs
to be Abraham Lak you that needs to be Martin
(41:34):
Luther King Junior or Gandhi or a leader could be
your grandparent. A leader could be your parent. A leader,
could be a sibling, or a boss you had, or
your high school basketball coach a leader. So I say,
who are the you know, the public figures that you
admire as leaders, but also who are the private figures?
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Right?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
So think about that. There are leadership lessons hiding and
plain sight in every interaction with every person. It could
be the way or the bus boy in the restaurant.
It could be Sauwa was recently at the hospital stay
and he said to me, what got me through was
not the nurses of the doctors, but there was this
janitor who came around and he chatted me late at
night whether I was stressed and anxious and the loan
(42:15):
and made me feel better. So that janitor was a leader.
So again it's not about title, it's about being a leader.
And I know you mentioned I know you have in
your book there was a bookmark and one of the
things on the bookmark with servant leadership. And I've been
doing it. Just finished Robert Greenlea's book on servant leadership.
And I'm a big fan of Francis Hesselbob. She said
one of her famous quotes is to lead, to live,
(42:37):
to serve, is to lead, and to lead is to live.
That's one of her famous quotes. Right, as a leader,
ask yourself, is my job to serve? Or to be serves?
And I think if you have a servant leadership mentality,
your job is to help get the best in the
most out people and to help develop the next generation
of leaders. It's not about power and authority and ego
and you know how big your paycheck is. The best
(42:59):
leaders are remembered because they made other people feel like leaders.
So that's what I would say is think about who
are those people in your life that have made you
feel like a leader and help you to become the
leader that you are today.
Speaker 4 (43:12):
Very well said, perfectly said Todd. We can't get enough
of this stuff. We've read so many leadership books and
talk with so many great leaders, but we really think this,
the whole concept of visual leadership is unique yet so profound.
So thank you for all that you've shared with us today.
Tell us a little bit about what your future plans are.
We got some books coming up in the future that
(43:32):
we can look forward to.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Not right now, I'm gonna stick with this one. You know,
the people who have a starthy books. It dilutes the one.
So for right now, visual leadership is who I am,
what I am, and I'm gonna write it out and
it's coming out in China. It was just translating some
mandarins coming on China later this year. I think there's
a lot more that's focus on visual leadership. I might
come up with a paper back field Guy or workbook
(43:55):
one day that has the models and the tools in it,
without the stories to strip down to the worksheets anything else.
But it really is what this new semester is starting
right after Labor Day, so gearing up to the full
semester and my executive coaching work and I do a
lot of to manage the leadership training, team building off sites,
so it's all going to start again. So I just
want this summer and we relaxed and joying the summer.
By the time people are seeing this, it's probably summer
(44:17):
has already ended and we're well into the fall. It
really is about just moving the ball over and spending
the world about See that's a oh one last thing.
I had all of these basketball metaphors that we use
in everyday life. A layup something easy, right, a slam dunk,
one hundred percent guarantee, full court press, jump ball, no harm,
no foul, run out the clock shot, an air ball
(44:39):
or an alley oop right, calling someone a chucker or
n one or a buzzer beather right, just for Jim
coach and I came up with all these, whether some
basketball metaphors or terminology we use in everyday life, think
about that, whether the metaphors you use, and try to
expand your metaphorical vocabulary to a lot of times we
stick with what we know and what we like. But
if you want to reach more people, well you need
(45:00):
to speak their language. So try to come up with
more metaphors and analogies and stories that will resonate with others.
I'll just leave you with I could talk for hours
as you can tell great talking to all of these.
I wore my NIXT shirt today because I was in
the basketball frame of mind. But thank you again for
having me this.
Speaker 6 (45:15):
Thank you, it was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
Thank you Todd.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
You're a coach as a Marshall Goldsmith one hundred coach.
Also you coach executives. You teach students what is the
best way for someone to get in touch with you?
Learn more about your coaching programs.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
Sure speak of Marshall Goldsmith's hundred Coaches. I have to
give a shout out to Scott Osmond and jeff Lyn
Wayne who were on your show, which is how I
found Coach Gim in the first place. So if it
wasn't for them in that conversation, I wouldn't have even
discovered you. So thanks. You need to acknowledge them and
Marshall Goldsmith as always. But yeah, the best way to
find me connect with me on LinkedIn. Just say you
saw me on the show, Happy to continue a conversation,
(45:51):
or check out my website at Tauchurches dot com. I
also Big Boogunball dot com, which is my business website,
but go to tow Churches dot com learn more about
my buck and check out my tut talk. That's the
best way to learn more. Let's start your journey to
becoming a better visual leader waks down.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
In the show notes, Tom Churches dot com and Todd
Churches on LinkedIn. Thank you Todd for your time today
and go next.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
Thank you for joining us this week at the Limitless
Leadership Lounge. To listen to this episode again and to
find previous episodes, check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
and Spreaker. You can also get in on the conversation.
Find us on Facebook and Instagram, then tell three of
your friends to join in as well. Coach Brnuma and John.
We'll be back again next week for another try generational
(46:33):
leadership discussion. We'll talk to you then on the Limitless
Leadership Lounge
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