January 18, 2025 • 64 mins
Hemingway Foundation/PEN Award writing nominee, Nicole Bokat, explores family dynamics, plot, characterization and rich mystery. Listen to Nicole's feature Off The Shelf Books Podcast interview right here! Get book marketing, editing and story development tips. Discover what's behind the makings of Will End in Fire, The Happiness Thief and Nicole's other books!
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to the winning literary show Off the Shelf
Books Talk Radio Live with post Delise Turney, author of
the books Long Walk Up, Porsha, Love, mo Over Me, Spiral,
Love Has Many Faces, and Rosetta's Great Hopes. Turn up
your dial and get ready for a blast of feature
author interviews four one one on book festivals, writing conferences,
(00:22):
and so much more. Ready let's go.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Welcome to this Saturdays Off the Shelf Show.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
And this is January to a tek. I want to
say to.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Everybody out there who celebrates it, and I'm slightly somebody
who does. Happy Reverend doctor Martin Luther King Junior Day,
which is on Monday in the United States, January the twentieth.
But his birthday actually it is the same day as
my father's, which I love, January the fifth teenth. So
(01:12):
I want to say a get happy marm Muther King Jr.
Day and I thank him for all the work he
did for him and his family during the Civil rights movement.
So to kick off this this show, I started a
couple of maybe two years ago, starting with a quote.
And this quote is anonymous, just something for you guys
(01:32):
to think about it. You on, don't wait for opportunity
create it. And again the source is anonymous. Don't wait
for opportunity created keep waiting for somebody else to do
stuff for us.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Go out there and go get it.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
A lot of everything we see, all the good we
see in the world, somebody took the risk and went
out and started it. Every organization, every event, every festival,
every book conference, every writer's conference, every bookstore, somebody had
stirred up their courage and didn't wait for the opportunity.
They went out and created it, and we get to
(02:10):
enjoy it. So that I encourage you, don't wait for
opportunity to create it. So you are listening to the
winning book podcast Off the Self and we have an
awesome author on debt for you today. But before we
introduce you to this author, I just this is some
(02:30):
a term that came up after the pandemic COVID.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
And it was burnout.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I started hearing more and more people talk about burn out,
and particularly women who worked, who house old, were married,
not children, just juggling so many different things.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
But even people men and.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
People who don't have a they're not married, they don't
have cared they would talk about burnout because through the
technology we can be linked to work twenty.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Four to seven.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Twenty four to seven people tell me they get up
and check their cell phone for work emails eleven o'clock
at night, two in the morning. I mean, that's when
you can put yourself at risk of burnout. So there's
a woman, her name is Jeliah and this story Pieces
of Me. She owns her own business, is what she's
always wanted to do, and her business is phenomenally successful.
(03:22):
But she's pushing herself. She's starting to push herself too hard.
And if this is something where she gets to learn more,
it's a book of self discovery as well. She gets
to learn more. She's beginning to us. You say it's
a short story, it's forty four pages. At the end,
she's starting to learn more about herself. If this is
(03:46):
something you know, self discovery, really getting to know more
of yourself maybe that you're getting from yourself. And then
the cool way she comes in to the self discovery,
she's gonna come into her own power for real. This
is something that interests you. I encourage you to get
a copy of Pieces of Me, Rushing with courage into
(04:06):
the day. Again, that's Pieces of Me Rushing with courage
into Today, written by yours truly Dennis Turning, and whatever
you do, take good care of yourself. Also encourage you
to visit me online at www.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
I don't know why I keep saying that cisto dot
com c.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
H I s t e l l dot com against
c h I S T e l l dot com
And why are you over there?
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Sign up for my newsletter, the Book Lover's Happy.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And now let us go and meet our very special
Off the Shelf guests. I'm excited and this morning's special
Off the Shelf guest. It's Nicole Bulkeet and she is
an editor Essays and the author of several books, including
Redeeming Eve, What Matters Most The Happiness Thief who I
(05:04):
love that title and will end in fire. Her book
Redeeming Eve was nominated for both the Hemingway Foundation a
slash Pen Award Congratulations and the Janet who I don't
know I'm gonna say this right Janet heading Jerk Cat
Kafka Past for Fiction Impressive. Her third novel, The Happiness Thief,
(05:28):
was a twenty and twenty one Forward India Awards Founalist
and the cole has a master's in creative writing and
a pad. Go ahead Nicole and literature, both from New
York University. She is a wife, mother, and a dog lover.
Please check Nicole Boket and her his name is spelled
b O k a T. Check her and her books
(05:50):
out at Nicole bok At dot com. I'm a fellat
n I c O l E b O kat dot com.
Ni c O l E b o kat dot com.
You could go over there, save her site as a favorite.
You can even check out her site while you listen
(06:12):
to today's show and share it with book lovers everywhere. So
we are absolutely honored to have Nicole Boquet join us
on Off the Shelf this morning. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to
Off the Shelf, Nicole.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Oh, it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
The first few questions, I asked every guest on the
show to give our listeners some backstory on my guests
before I start launching into questions about them and their books.
So the kickoff today show, Nicole, please tell Off the
Shelf listeners.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Where you grew up and what life was like for
you growing up.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
I grew up on Long Island in New York. So,
you know, uh, I always wanted to live in New
York City, so I did for you know, college and
graduate school. And then when I had my first son,
we moved to New Jersey because it was too hard
(07:12):
to squeeze into apartment in New York in Manhattan. But
I grew up on Long Island. But you know, I
went into the city a lot by the time I was,
I guess in high school. Took acting classes there, then
took went to college at Northwestern for one year in Illinois,
(07:38):
but missed New York. Missed kind of the anonymitee and yeah,
and and I just let's see what else about where
I grew up. I was lucky in that I had,
you know, pretty much upper middle class background, but I
(08:04):
wasn't really a real suburban girl, you know, so I
really wanted a more of a city life.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Did you have siblings, brothers and sisters?
Speaker 4 (08:17):
I have two in fact this book, which I only
in this book, I was one. But the thing about it,
I did have two. I do have two siblings, a
brother and sister. But the idea for the book, which
was about a house fire, actually happened to us when
(08:38):
we were when I was a kid. And so when
you say where I grew up most of my life, yes,
I spent in my childhood in a house. But we
had It's nothing like what happens in my book. But
we had a house fire when I was a teenager
and we lived for I would say about not ten
(09:00):
months in a trailer, which was a very strange choice
by my parents, but they wanted to over kind of
oversee what was going on with rebuilding the house. So
we lived in quite confined quarters, three of us in
one room in a trailer in the driveway, rather than
renting another house. So I have some experience, although not
(09:23):
traumatic in the same way because I wasn't even home
when it happened. But so we had a house that
was then rebuilt, and that was probably the strangest experience
growing up.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Interesting.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Yeah, the whole back of the house there was an
electrical fire. We had people working on the house. I
can't remember exactly why. My father, I think was building
an office out of the garage and it caught on fire. Luckily,
my only two people home were my brother and sister,
and they got out of the house with the dog
(10:03):
and it didn't burn down. But you know, I came
home and there was like, oh, there's no back to
my Ah. It was just like it was like a
movie set or something like on a TV, like a
theater set, you know, like you just kind of walked
into the house and then there was like no living room.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
In the back.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
So I kind of took you know, this was a
very different fire. But when I imagined it, I imagined the
house I grew up in and how it was so
weird and everything was burned and talking about burnout. Everything
smelled of smoke and we had to throw out all
our clothes and a lot of books, and then we
(10:52):
had to rebuild the whole back of the house, which
you know, there was insurance and it was an you
know whatever. But yeah, so that was that was a
strange experience growing up. So that was probably my most bizarre.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, I can hear it when you when it's still
you can tell it still has impact on you. So
whether it was before the fire, and I'm glad everybody
was safe before after the fire. When you were a
little girl, what did you dream of becoming? What did
you say you want to be when you grew up?
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Well, it was divided between writing. I started writing seriously
when I was around nine or ten. And then I
also really liked acting, although so I did a lot
of shows I did. I did theater Regional Theater in
(11:53):
North Carolina when I was a teenager, summer stock, and
I actually had thought I was going to be a
theater major, which is why I went to Northwestern for theater.
But then I also was really interested in writing.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
And.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
I when I was around ten, I went to summer
camp and over whenever we had rest periods, I would
be writing.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And so.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
I told my parents. I don't know, I was kind
of young to go to summer camp attend but I
told my parents, like I didn't want to have to
participate in certain activities so that I could write the novel.
And they were like, my mother, you know, it was
like go play archery, like and I did, No, No,
(12:47):
I did. I mean I did. It wasn't like they
they didn't discourage it, you know. It wasn't so much
that it was more like it's summer, go outside, and
I did. I mean, I liked swimming. I wasn't a
big sports person, but I did really like swimming. I
really liked archery. I was in the shows, and then
(13:09):
in middle school, well junior high, I was into gymnastics.
So I had a lot of different interests. It wasn't
like I just sat in my room, you know. I was,
you know, very interested in gymnastics when I was young,
and I was in the balance beam and then I
like broke my foot coming off of the balance beam
(13:31):
and that was kind of the end of that career.
Oh but yeah, I did a lot, but I was
always writing, always writing. And so I wrote this book
if you want to call that, because it was pencil
when I was ten, and it was one hundred and
fifty pages. And that was my first attempt, you know,
(13:55):
and it was before computers, so I that aled. So,
you know, I handwrote it in camp and I don't know,
I just really enjoyed. My favorite book when I was
a kid was a wrinkling time and I really enjoyed
reading sort of speculative just toping whatever you called it
(14:18):
back then, you know, fiction, which I didn't write, but
you know, I really was very interested in it.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
It seemed like it came storytelling writing. It seemed like
it just was in you. It came natural to you.
And that shared I know you've also earned a master's
in creative writing and a PhD in literature.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
How has and.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I've asked other authors who've had degrees in writing, says,
how has earning these degrees impacted your storytelling?
Speaker 4 (14:53):
It's I don't think it's necessary. I mean, when I
was going for my PhD, it was basically to teach,
which I really liked. I liked teaching college and I
did that for over twenty years. It was a bit
of a diversion from writing. Like I wasn't really writing
creatively when I was getting my PhD. I was writing, obviously,
(15:16):
you know, academically, and uh I was reading more as
a writer maybe than a scholar, which was part of
why I preferred writing, But I was it was a
really great environment to be in. I really liked academics,
(15:40):
you know, I really liked school. I was you know,
I could have just been in school my whole life
if I could have afforded to, you know, like, I
really liked going I really liked for a long time
going to school and being in an academic environment. So
that was one thing. And then the other thing is
some of the people I met in my master's program,
(16:01):
which was very you know, a long time ago. I'm
still friendly with and I still sometimes even exchange work
with a couple m and even if I didn't meet
them the year or they were in my program. Like
I have a friend in town who went a few
years later than me, and we sort of like started
a writing group out here. So I think a lot
(16:21):
of it was just community more than work. Although I
did get work teaching for a while because of it,
so that was fun. And I really loved being in
a classroom, including teaching. You know, some people get really
nervous teaching, and I did at first, you know a
(16:42):
little bit. But I started teaching college classes when I
was twenty five, so I was very young looking, and
it was at first, this was at NYU, and it
was a little bit hard to get students to see
me as the teacher because I looked young for my age,
(17:06):
and so you know, I had to like sort of
learn how to engage them because they were close enough
in age to like look at me like I was
not an authority figure. But I still had fun with it,
you know. I I liked hearing everyone's stories. I really
(17:28):
loved talking about like when I even when I taught
like composition, which isn't fiction, you know, And people were
writing arguments. They were doing a lot of essays that
were argumentative essays, which I guess would be like more
like personal journalism, and I just liked hearing their stories,
(17:53):
you know, And so that was really fun and also
teaching critical thinking and how to like write an argument
and all that.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Okay, we want to now talk about your novels. Can
you give off the chef listeners an overview of your
first novel, Redeeming Eve.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
Oh god, that's so long ago. Yeah. Well, that was
probably my only novel that I would call comic, and
it was most autobiographical because it was based on a
graduate student who sort of freaks out when she has
a baby and her mother is a really big figure
and she's not so sure about herself as a mother
(18:34):
and an academic, so she kind of flees her marriage
for a little while. But it's also funny, so or
somewhat funny, you know, and it was kind of considered
a comic novel in a way that my other ones weren't.
And so yeah, so that was the first one, and
(18:59):
I would say definitely the most autobiographically, although I did
not flee from my child.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Oh okay, no, no, no, no, you talk about even
a little bit. How old is she.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
And what's her family like?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
How would you describe her personality in the book?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
She was I think, God, it's been early thirties, and
her family is, you know, middle class Jewish, kind of natty.
Her mother is a big figure who gets a TV show.
(19:42):
Her dad's nice, not as effectual, so a little bit
like mine, but not completely. You know, obviously my mother
didn't have a TV show. You know, it's all kind
of exaggerated, but she has a basically stable upbringing, not
(20:07):
too extreme, I don't think. And that book I kind
of wrote right on the heels of writing my dissertations.
So I was trying to figure out how to write
a novel, you know, I was trying to figure out
from all the input I had from other writers. So
(20:30):
I have like some sections and letters and a little
bit different than what I would do now, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I was.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
I was very like influenced by academia when I wrote
that book. Like, she's a Jane Austen person. She loves
Jane Austen, and she really wants her life to be
like a Jane Austen. Characters you know, very neat the
(21:00):
opposite of her family, you know, like a need ending,
you know, like clean. There's kind of like she wants
rules in life and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
So she sounds interesting. Now how you said, she's in
her thirties, so she's got a little bit of life.
She's got some experiences. I died and she's in her thirties.
I think she's had some experiences. She sounds like an
interesting character.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Well, the last book is my youngest Character, which is
really strange.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Okay, now we want to talk about The Happiness Theef next.
I want to try to get to all of your books,
definitely your latest one, but love the titles I was
telling earlier in the intro The Happiness Thee. Can you
please give us a brief overview of the book The
Happiness Beef.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Okay, so this one came. Okay, So it's about two sisters. Well,
they're half sisters and or stepsisters, I guess, because they
don't their parents married, but they so Natalie's mother married
(22:19):
Isabelle's father, so it's kind of it's mostly about their relationship,
but it's also about a trauma that happened to Natalie,
who's the main character when she was young and there
was a car accident and her mother was killed. And
the thing is that I was really interested in the
(22:39):
time at the time in a lot of these wellness
kind of industry, and I got really it was really
fun to do a lot of research on like positive psychology.
(22:59):
So Isabelle, who's her sister, is a wellness guru. So
she has a PhD in psychology, but she becomes this
sort of like she has a following. It's not a
cult or anything like that. You know, she was well
regarded and she starts having these seminars and happiness and
(23:28):
Natalie starts taking them, and so it's sort of but
underlying all of it is a mystery of how this
car accident happened that killed her mother, what happened, what
was her role in it? And so it's sort of
like a mixed genre where it is a mystery, but
(23:50):
it's also about like post traumatic stress, what you can remember,
what you can't remember, what role that plays in your life,
how trying to use alternative therapies. You know, people who
do a lot of these alternative wellness things impact them.
(24:12):
And it's a little bit of a takedown on some
of the positive psychology movement, not entirely, you know, but
I just sort of had fun with the idea of
having read so many books about it, I started to think,
(24:33):
this is like a really big business, you know. Like
so I start to think, like, wow, you can really
make a lot of money at this. And so her
sister makes a lot of money at it, you know,
and so it's kind of like a duel, Like I said,
thing about trauma, but also about mystery and buried sea
(25:00):
sts and she can't remember things the main So like
that was really interesting to me because I like the
idea of characters who have like holes in their memory,
you know, it makes for good plots and buried secrets
(25:21):
in their family, things that have to be unraveled and discovered,
and a little twisty. It's not like it's not typical
murder mystery, you know. It's not like someone dies on
the first page and then you have to find out
who did it? But why did her mother die? What happened?
(25:45):
What happened to causes car accident? Because Natalie thinks it
was her fault. She was a kid. She was a kid,
but she thinks that she was the reason for it.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
They say kids blame themselves.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
When and where is the story set and why did
you why did you choose this particular location.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Well, it was set in Boston, and at the time
I was working with an agent who was like, Okay,
too many books in New York and that's an honest reason.
And she's like, pick another place. Pick pick some place
like Kansas. I'm like, well, I've never lived in Kansas.
I can't write a whole book from Kansas. I had
lived for a year in the Chicago suburbs, but I
(26:25):
had been spending some time up in Boston, and I
liked that location because she's a she's not only is
a food photographer, and her sister's like sort of an
academic y kind of person from that kind of a family.
And I was like, Okay, Boston has a lot of
these kind of college town, you know, colleges, and it
(26:52):
was easy for me, living in New Jersey to go
up there and to explore neighborhoods. And then the beginning
takes place in the Cayman Islands because I wanted it
to be. She goes to a big Happiness World Happiness conference, which,
by the way, is a real thing, and they usually yeah,
there's like the World Happiness Conference. They usually take place
(27:13):
in Australia, and I'm like, well, I can't go to
a and not only that, but they're like really expensive
to attend, Like if you want to attend and take
these seminars, you have to fly to Australia, and like
they do now have them online. But I was like, well,
she's not going to a World Happiness Convention in Australia.
(27:34):
So I said, I'll just put on an island. And
it was the one Caribbean island that I had been to,
so I figured, okay, I'll put it there. This is
really pretty and they have a ton of places like
conference places and you know, places to eat and hold
these kind of things, you know, And I thought it
(27:57):
would be easy and kind of luxurious without having to
go do research so far away, you know. But so
that was why I decided to put the World Happiness Conference.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
World Happiness Conference. Yes that I might check that out.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Okay, So there are many happiness conferences, but there's like
a particular one I was researching, and there are really
big name people go to them. You know, they're sort
of like authors, but then they're also like people who've
done a lot of research on positive psychology, and you know,
(28:41):
it's not really like yoga necessarily, Like it's like a
lot of psychologists and it's it's kind of really fun
to follow what they do. You know, I really get
into the research of it. But there are other ones too.
They're like there's a place in New York City that
(29:04):
has like this open center and you can take all
these classes. But you know, a lot of the seminars
have to do with just studies people have done about
what makes people happy. And then there's also a Gallup
poll every year of like, you know, the world's happiest
(29:27):
countries and wire yes, right right, all of that, and
they kind of they put that into some of it,
so like, you know, some of it really is just
societal and like there's only so much you can do
to change. But you know, from an individual's point of view,
the World Happiness Conference is like for leaders and happiness
(29:50):
to also like talk about what makes people happy. It's
really interesting and they have Yeah, and move.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
From you here on office ship. But those who didn't
notice such a conference now you come up with great titles.
Nicole call Us was happening at the start of what
matters most.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Oh, well, that one was a little bit more of
a That novel was wasn't my name? That was my
agent at the times named for it. And that book
was also about secrets mothers and daughters, like I really
(30:33):
like these kind of family things like the death of
her father and then all kinds of secrets that come
out about her family and her mother, and similar themes
to the happiness deep but a little bit more grounded,
(30:56):
you know, it's not a mystery in the same way
her father has just died, and so that's a little,
you know, a bit of a said opening. And right
before that we see we see it through two people's
points of view. It's her mother's and hers. The main
character Georgie and her mother and their different upbringings and
(31:22):
secrets the mother has kept from her daughter. So that
was probably the most commercially what's the right word marketed
of the books. Oh, because young Win and they had
a more commercial view of it. So they changed my name,
(31:45):
so that of my book, whereas like if you published
with a smaller press, they usually won't change your name.
Although this new book I had a different name and
they suggested I change it, so I came up with
this name the less.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Now, how does Georgie murkins relationship with her father Adam
impact her her relationship with her son?
Speaker 4 (32:13):
Oh god, I'm trying to remember. I think, you know,
in most of the books, the father figures are pretty
benign and decent and good people who, you know, make
(32:33):
the main characters more sympathetic mothers. So I would say, yeah,
that that, you know, love for your father like kind
of informs most of my books, and this one too. Yeah,
(33:02):
I don't know, I have to think about it.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Okay, is Georgie is she like her mother a stale?
Is she similar to her mother?
Speaker 4 (33:11):
No?
Speaker 3 (33:11):
And then how are they different? In how are they alike?
Speaker 4 (33:17):
M hm, Georgie's softer and still is very ambitious, very
you know, she's colder, she's more successful. So I mean
(33:39):
that's kind of a theme and a bunch of my books,
not Happiness Thief because the mother is dead. Yeah, yeah,
I mean, but it's kind of a theme, the mother
daughter relationship, the mother father relationship, the mother child relationship.
Although not all of them have sons, you.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Know, but that mother daughter relationship is strained. Would you
say that's a thing.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
In most of them? Yeah, Like in my first one. Yes,
definitely my first book. It's strained, but not in a
kind of comic way where like she just wants to
get the hell away from her mother because her mother
is driving her crazy, but not in like a you know,
(34:32):
traumatic way. It's just you know, like a big personality
and she's in a more gregarious mother than a Stele.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Okay, she's more fuz.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
I'm like, you're fuck the daughter's friends probably like i'ming
over being around our mother. Now we want, I want
to talk about will End in Fire. You're sort of
kind of alluding to it at the start at today's show.
How do Ellie Stone and Josh Meat and the book
Will End in Fire?
Speaker 4 (35:09):
Oh no, they're siblings.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, can you introduce us then
give us, give us some tell us about their personality
if they were like real people that they were coming
to some event and you were going to introduce them.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Okay, Well, Ellie and Josh.
Speaker 4 (35:28):
Okay, Ellie's they're young, they're in their twenties. They kind
of have they had a good relationship when they were young.
They are young, but when they were kids, and then
as time went by, they sort of started having a
contentious relationship with a lot of like they were sibling
(35:50):
rivalry in their family. And Ellie's the older one and
she's very, very driven to succeed in the world. And
her younger brother, Josh, gets a soccer scholarship to college
and he's a really good athlete, but he gets addicted
(36:13):
to taking adderall and a bunch of other things in
order to thrive as both an athlete and a student,
which becomes a problem, which it is a problem at
the beginning of the book. We don't see them when
they're younger, really accept in one chapter, and so he's
(36:35):
going to have to start a program for addiction, which
he resents because you know, he's already i think twenty four,
and he's living with his parents, which she doesn't like,
you know, and she's living in the city with her
best friend from high school and she has a job,
and you know, there's just a lot of strain between
(36:56):
the two of them because Elie resents it just resents
all the attention Josh has gotten by being a screw up,
you know, because they're young, and you know, she's really
doing a good job of things, and she's paying off
her student loans and all that. So things are not
(37:19):
great between them when the book starts, But like I said,
when they were younger, they had more of a bond
until I'd say, she goes to college and Josh is
in high school something, and then he becomes a big wig.
He has a girlfriend. He still has the same girlfriend
(37:40):
he had from college. Things are strained between them because
he's been screwing up. His girlfriend lives in Brooklyn. So
this book is really like placed pretty close to home.
Elie lives on the Washington Heights up all the way
(38:04):
uptown in New York with her friend, and Josh is
living at home until he can get his himself together.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
How many years apart are they three?
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Three? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Okay, yeah, so they're not that far apart.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
No, And you know, Josh was like very popular in
high school because he was an athlete, and Ellie was
more like she wasn't unpopular, she was just studious and
sort of introverted.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Ah okay, I'm saying that theme in some of your
books too. This is it's outgoing person who really loves
being out in the in the public, and then there's
somebody who's reserved. Now, how did Josh get burned and
how did his injuries impact Ellie's in his relationship.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Well, I mean, he's in the hospital for the first
part of the book, so he's really badly injured. So
the main thing is that Ellie was in the house
before the fire started. She left, so she feels really guilty, wow,
(39:14):
like really really guilty for leaving him there. And mystery
in this book is who started the fire?
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
Yeah, and so she was a smoker, not a big one.
Oh wow, keep thinking did she leave a cigarette burning?
Did she? It's too much damage to figure out what happened.
So the whole book is really like her guilt, what happened?
What started the fire? Who did it? They had a fight,
(39:45):
she left, and he had just had a fight with
his girlfriend on the phone. So she's sort of a
semi suspect, although not exactly, but you know, she's spoken
to You know, the police are investigating because they have
(40:05):
to investigate anything they think might be arsenal. But most
fires are accidents, and I did a lot of research
on that. How do you know if it's arson versus
an accident? Because you know, most fire you have to
get a forensic specialist blah blah blah, and they don't
you know, they don't really Like the police do interview
(40:26):
Ellie a couple of times, but they can't really pin
it on on her. There's no real proof of what started.
So she becomes like sort of obsessed with trying to
figure out how it started, not just to get herself
off the hook, but also because like her family's destroyed
(40:46):
and she wants to figure out what happened, and like
her parents are to traumatize, and they're not really They
are involved with talking to the police, but not in
the way that Allie is, because she's doing research and
she's trying to figure it out and all that. And
(41:07):
she also gets really close to like Josh's circle of friends,
well mostly his best friend and his girlfriend, to try
to see was he depressed, was he like suicidal? Was
he taking drugs? Did he do this accidentally? Did he
leave something burning? So like there's that whole.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Well you this this mystery I'm staying a movie.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
So when you were writing this, because I watched when
I I love to watch mystery movies and then Lit's
listen to you described well end and fire. When you
were writing it, did you see it playing out like
a movie in your head?
Speaker 4 (41:45):
Well, I really, you know, it's hard to say, like
sometimes but like I I reorganized it many times, you know,
and when you rewrite sometimes even now talking about like
what matters most whatever, I'm like, wait, what was Anny like?
Because you rewrite so many times that like sometimes I'll think,
oh no, that I'm not this book because I'm so
(42:07):
close to it. But you think, well, that was originally
what I was going to do, but then I changed that,
you know, And so I wasn't always sure how this
was going to end. And I don't know if people
know with movies, they probably edit those two, you know,
(42:27):
I've never done one. I did always know how the
having this sleep was going to end, you know. I
always knew that last scene that was always playing in
my head, that last scene. This one was different, and
I changed the very last scene, and I was like
excited to figure out what I wanted to happen at
the end because I just wasn't sure how to finish,
(42:50):
you know what I mean. I wasn't sure. I wanted
to make it a little bit different. And in that respect,
it's kind of like you're editing a movie in your
head all the time, you know, and you know how
like sometimes you watch these like TV series now that
are like six to eight episodes and there's some mystery
(43:12):
and you're like, wait, what you know, and they kind
of like twist around and you're like, wait, I don't
remember what happened last time, so you have to go
back and see. But it's not that different when you're writing.
So one thing I did do differently than I did
with my first two books, which you know I wrote
when I was younger. I would rewrite outlines over and
(43:35):
over again. Ah yeah, and I like would give them
to like an editor, like some freelance editor I used,
or sometimes two people, and I would say, Okay, you
have to help me with this plot, because without that,
you're just kind of meandering when you're writing, you know
what I mean, if you're going to write something like this,
(43:58):
you need to like kind and nail those plot points,
you know, in a way that like if you're writing
maybe like a family saga or historical I mean, most
books have to have a plot, let's face it, they
have to be very plotted. But if it's a more
lyrical novel whatever, you don't have to worry so much
(44:21):
about that. But here I was like, okay, I really
want this to I want to figure this out, you know,
who did what when? And also the other thing then
is the other hard part is that you have to
make sure that none of the characters seem unbelievable like
they can be. They can be sort of evil, but
(44:45):
they can't be completely evil, right yeah, I mean you
don't want them to be like one dimensional.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
Yeah yeah, yeah, where people are like that. This doesn't
sound like.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Although I've seen movies where I think that's that's worked. Now,
what have what have readers been saying? What have you
been hearing from readers about Will End in Fire?
Speaker 4 (45:10):
I mean mostly good, you know, it's mostly good and positive.
I've gotten pretty positive positive reviews and from bloggers and
from Kirkus and from a few you know, the other
place I've sent it. Some people really want like miss
(45:32):
The only thing that I will say is like, I'm
really interested in character and language and development and not
just like plot plot plot plot plot. So it's not
a book where like a woman or man gets thorn
down the stairs, you know what I mean, or baby
gets kidnapped and then every page are like wait, we
(45:54):
you know, I really wanted to develop not just the
plot and and I think that most people do like this.
I want there to be a sense of it being
it somewhat character driven in that I have to know
(46:15):
each of them, excuse me, each of these characters' motivations
for why they do what they do. And even you know,
I have to feel some empathy, even for the least
appealing characters, you know how like actors say, I can't
play someone if I don't understand them or whatever. Right, So, like,
(46:39):
even if they're like a horrible human being, you have
to know, like, well, something made them this way, Like
why are they like this? They weren't just born. I mean,
you know, they're terrible people in the world. There really are,
and but you want to like kind of understand them
and make them interesting. And you know, terrible people can
be really fascinating, you know.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yeah, you can see a boy the movies and the
popular books. Yes, yeah, somebody that you thinks are to understand.
Uh yeah, they do tend to make for fascinating characters.
I am so happy that you've gotten those great reviews
and good ones on Will End And it sounds like
a mystery.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
I see it as a movie.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
It's something that I could see on a television, a
TV movie. This is what I can see when you're
describing will end and find. I love to hear authors
talk about their books, their characters, the story development.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
Et cetera.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Now, speaking about writing, In addition to writing books, you
offer editorial services.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
Can you tell us about some of your editorial services
that you offer?
Speaker 4 (47:49):
Okay, well, I have mostly edited, but I've also ghost
written some ghost through I propose for someone, which just
means they give me all their material and I have
to shape it. That was nonfiction. Those are easier to write,
you know, a propos you know, because you don't really
(48:10):
write a proposal for a novel. But I actually rewrote
a novel for people because their first language wasn't English. Okay,
so I did that, And I'm working with somebody now
on an idea for a novel. But mostly I edit,
which basically means people will send me anything. Really, there
(48:36):
are limits to what I can edit, obviously, Like I'm
not gonna edit a science dissertation, but like if it's
nonfiction or fiction, it's fine. I've edited essays that have
been published like in the Washington Post or you know,
not not not political, you know, I have but I've
(48:57):
done because they have on staff editors, but I've edited,
you know, first person pieces, and then I mostly edit.
I would say memoir the most popular are memoirs and novels.
And what I do is I read the whole book
(49:20):
with notes, and if they want line it, it's I'll
do it. Although you know, a lot of times they're
going to be rewriting, but I can't help myself. So,
like if they make a similar kind of mistake over
and over again, you know, grammatical or just like plot
or character whatever, I will point out, flesh out the
(49:42):
scene here, flesh out the scene there. I don't really
you know, give it. Just they're very you know, only
people make a lot of similar mistakes, you know, so
I'm used to it, like where they go into different
points of view without really any signposts, or they don't
(50:04):
develop scenes or whatever, and so I'm very good at.
Like the one thing I think I've gotten good at
is kind of assessing an overall idea of what's missing
and what's strong about a book, and where the writer
really needs to zero in on their book in order
(50:27):
to either self publish or send it to an agent
or small press, whatever their choice is, to make it
as polished as possible and also as engaging so somebody
feels compelled to read it. And I do go to
a writing group where everybody critiques each other's work really quickly,
(50:50):
and so it does sharpen your skills as an editor,
especially for short pieces, if you're doing it really quickly
or like a okay, you want to catch the reader's attention.
This is what you want. And there's a difference between
the marketplace and you know, what I might enjoy like
(51:11):
I might, you know, an editor might be looking for
something very timely. But what I like about fiction is
that I've been doing this for so long with fiction,
between studying fiction, going to school for fiction. So even
though I can do nonfiction and I definitely think memoirs
close to fiction in structure, I really think my strain
(51:36):
is fiction, you know, Like I said, I think I
understand what works the best in fiction, but I have
done I have done nonfiction books too, Like I've edited
a book about nutrition, you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Yeah, yeah, Are you taking on new clients for our
listeners who might be in it and which.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
Always take I'm always taking on new clients. I have
one that I'm working on right now alonger project. But yes,
I take on new clients all the time. And what's
really great about it is like, you know, I'll tell
a client, Okay, this will take me three weeks, and
it's done in three weeks, like I'm you unless there's
(52:22):
like an illness or you know, something happens. It's unprecedented.
I will get it done because I can look at
a manuscript and know how long it will take me
to do, you know, because there's like an end. It's
nice to have sort of like okay, it's three hundred pages.
I can tell you how long this will take me.
Speaker 3 (52:43):
Okay, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (52:44):
It's a little bit different than when you have an
ongoing project with people. And I've done that too. I've
I've had clients that I helped over a couple of
years and they'll send me a chapter at a time
or you know, and that was that's really great. If
I get along with the people, which I almost always do,
like you know, they continue with me because we get along,
(53:04):
and then like it's nice to see them finish, you know,
and to like publish or to self publish or to
publish with a small press or whatever they do, but
like I always feel really happy for them.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
Yes, I want to ask you we're talking editing.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
You've written, you studied the craft of storytelling, character development,
et cetera. Can you share, because all that comes down
to this, if you want to go public with your book, right,
and if you're not just writing a story for yourself,
can you share three to four steps that you personally
take that you found to be effective at getting the
(53:43):
word out about your books.
Speaker 4 (53:46):
Well, that's the hardest part of the process because publishing
has changed so much and continues to evolve. So you know,
there was a way of standard way of doing everything,
which was you get an agent. The agent tries to
sell the book, the books taken by a traditional press
(54:07):
or a small press, and then you're kind of out
of it. You don't do it. I mean, you did
some stuff, you know what I mean, You would do
a reading at Barnes and Noble or whatever. Now, of course,
everything is so much online, and there are hybrids and
there are self publishing, and there are all these small presses,
(54:27):
and there are different ways to do things. And it's
I think gotten harder to get an agent because or
at least not to get an agent. But to get
a major publisher because they've consolidated. And I'm always honest
with clients that they do really care. They've always cared
(54:49):
about sales. The difference is that now they really want big,
big sales and to be like an editor could green
light your bo book and now and I have friends
that happened to and now they have to get permissioned
from sales and marketing departments and whatever. So the editor
(55:12):
doesn't have as much power in some you know, in
some areas. And also if your debut or you're in
a second book doesn't sell well, then you get dropped.
So you know, there are ways to publish, including self
publishing now that you can. You have to be very
(55:35):
entrepreneurial to self published.
Speaker 3 (55:37):
Oh yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 4 (55:39):
And so one of the things that I tell my
clients is you have to know yourself, like how much
do you know about marketing? How much do you know?
How comfortable are you talking about yourself on Facebook? On Instagram?
Now there's this Twitter band, so not Twitter TikTok? Do
all happen with booktop? Things really changed over COVID because
(56:04):
everything became zoom and online and you know, so there
became a lot of like, instead of giving readings and bookstores,
which was already sort of waning a little bit, it
became even more online. So you do have to be
willing to in some cases or most cases, either become
(56:28):
your own publicists because you're really good at it, or
hire a publicist. You know, so there's like, there's different,
you know, book blogging that's become really big gone a
book blogging tour like that didn't exist when I started writing.
I have friends who started publishing a long time ago,
(56:50):
and they're very old school. And I pushed one of
my friends who's a great writer and had her second
book come out by a different imprint than her first,
and I kept telling her I won't name names, and
I kept saying, you really should hire a publisher. She's like,
that's okay, I'm a publicist of the company. I was like, no, please,
(57:11):
And so then afterwards she was like, the publicist forgot
to send my book to this isn't it? And thank
you for telling me about these book blogging tours, and
thank you for telling me about this and that, because
I think, you know, you have to be a you
have to be savvy about Yes, you have to be
savvy about the Internet. You have to be savvy about marketing.
(57:32):
You have to be willing to put yourself out there,
even if you're uncomfortable. A lot of writers are pretty
introverted and so it's kind of a brave new world
of publishing that's always changing.
Speaker 2 (57:47):
So you you're book the book blogs, the book blogs,
you're saying, and you can do something in store. I know, well,
I am a book manager. Told me bookstore that they
did have an author come and do signings during the
Christmas holidays and they did quite well. So some of
those depending on how it's set up, the book signings,
(58:07):
the book blogs. Social media video is very popular and
I still think going to in person events that they
are attracting thousands and thousands of role Yeah, and then
ads also doing ads at the right locations. Those also
can help because if you're not just writing for yourself,
(58:28):
you want to you want to get eyes on your books,
You're going to have to figure out how to market
and pure.
Speaker 4 (58:36):
You know. The weirdest thing that happened to me was
I went when I did what matters most don't. I
can't remember who hooked me up with this, and my
book was you know, I'm Jewish, but the book wasn't okay,
the character was Jewish, but it wasn't a big scene
in the book. But somehow I got invited to this
(58:58):
group of it was mostly Jewish women at some club
on Long Island, and it was the biggest crowd I'd
ever had. And Wow, the book wasn't about you know
what I mean, like there was like.
Speaker 3 (59:10):
One like the fire Yeah was still Oh my god,
that's like a take it, take it, yeah.
Speaker 4 (59:17):
And so they're like lining up because they were you know,
I was younger, Wow, older women, and they were buying
it for their wo daughters and nephews and nieces, and
I was like wow, you know. And so I do
know another writer, and she writes historical Jewish fiction. When
I say that, I mean like from two thousand years ago,
you know, not the Holocaust or whatever. And so she
(59:38):
writes very specifically about Jewish history, ancient Jewish history, or
I think one book took place during Napoleon's time. And
so she gets invited to a time very hooked up
in like these kind of you know, sin dogs or
(01:00:00):
women's groups or counsels of this or you know, And
that's a really good way to get out there.
Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
Ye who have.
Speaker 4 (01:00:09):
You know, I'm not gonna like, I'm not going to
go to like the burn units and you know, but
if you can find like you're a niche, you know,
like history writers events or thrillers or crime writer events,
or you know, people who like certain kinds of books.
(01:00:29):
If you write rom coms, then you go to do
those kind of things. There are a lot of authors
who do the smallest book signings in the world, but
they'll still show up in Lake Brooklyn or you know,
somewhere in Maine, and they'll show up at these events
and there's maybe ten people will buy their book. But
if you do, if you have the stamina and you
do it enough, you can, Yes, you can get a
(01:00:53):
name for yourself as someone who shows up and reads
and signs and talks to people who are interested you know,
book channels, Yeah, those kind of things. Like I do
think that that's like, that's a really good way of
getting your name out there, because like very few writers
(01:01:14):
get a publisher's sending them on book towards anymore.
Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
No, Yeah, you got to be a big, big, big
name to do that.
Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Now, where as we as we come to a close,
I could keep talking to you, on and on and
on the CO have so much enjoyed connecting with you
today than you just offer so much from your editorial services,
your your in depth and I could tell your passionate
about storytelling.
Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
Where can off the shelf listeners get a copy of
your books?
Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
Well, the easiest is Amazon, Let's face it, it's the easiest.
You can also go to Barnes and Noble. I think
it's on Bookshop, but I Amazon or Barnes and Noble
is probably the easiest way. Okay, online you know.
Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
Are you on any social media? And if so, how
can Christmas?
Speaker 4 (01:02:11):
Facebook and Instagram? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
And what they just look up Nicole bouket Ya and
you would come up yeah, okay, okay. We have so
enjoyed connecting with Nicole Bolcat. She is an editor and
she says she's taking new plans, y'all. She's an editor,
essays and the author of several books, including Redeeming Eve,
(01:02:37):
What Matters Most, The Happiness Thing and Will End in Fire,
the one I see in some movie format in hearing
her describe it. She she has won and been nominated
for book awards, including him any Way Foundation, Pen Award
and just Congratulations to her.
Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
Encourage you to check her out online the.
Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Co bouquet at n I c O L E b
ok A t dot com. Again, that's NI c O
L E b ok A T dot com.
Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
Thank you, thank you, thank.
Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
You, thank you so much for the call and our
author so enjoyed you and to our Off the Shelf listeners.
Please come back here next Saturday eleven am each your
standard time, but one of the show streamers, you can
listen to it at any day, anytime. Encourage you to
share Off the showf with book lovers, your colleagues, your friends,
(01:03:33):
your family, your neighbors, book lovers everywhere where.
Speaker 3 (01:03:38):
These authors are just an absolute treat.
Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
When the show finishes streaming and I get it ready,
n call, I'll send you a link to the show
to our listeners.
Speaker 4 (01:03:47):
As I always tell you.
Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
This is the truth. You are just absolutely amazing. You
are phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Please go out and create a wonderful day for yourself
today and I'll see you back here at Off the
Shelf next week.
Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
Thank you and bye for now.
Speaker 4 (01:04:05):
Thank you,
You're listening to the winning literary show Off the Shelf
Books Talk Radio Live with post Delise Turney, author of
the books Long Walk Up, Porsha, Love, mo Over Me, Spiral,
Love Has Many Faces, and Rosetta's Great Hopes. Turn up
your dial and get ready for a blast of feature
author interviews four one one on book festivals, writing conferences,
(00:22):
and so much more. Ready let's go.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Welcome to this Saturdays Off the Shelf Show.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
And this is January to a tek. I want to
say to.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Everybody out there who celebrates it, and I'm slightly somebody
who does. Happy Reverend doctor Martin Luther King Junior Day,
which is on Monday in the United States, January the twentieth.
But his birthday actually it is the same day as
my father's, which I love, January the fifth teenth. So
(01:12):
I want to say a get happy marm Muther King Jr.
Day and I thank him for all the work he
did for him and his family during the Civil rights movement.
So to kick off this this show, I started a
couple of maybe two years ago, starting with a quote.
And this quote is anonymous, just something for you guys
(01:32):
to think about it. You on, don't wait for opportunity
create it. And again the source is anonymous. Don't wait
for opportunity created keep waiting for somebody else to do
stuff for us.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Go out there and go get it.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
A lot of everything we see, all the good we
see in the world, somebody took the risk and went
out and started it. Every organization, every event, every festival,
every book conference, every writer's conference, every bookstore, somebody had
stirred up their courage and didn't wait for the opportunity.
They went out and created it, and we get to
(02:10):
enjoy it. So that I encourage you, don't wait for
opportunity to create it. So you are listening to the
winning book podcast Off the Self and we have an
awesome author on debt for you today. But before we
introduce you to this author, I just this is some
(02:30):
a term that came up after the pandemic COVID.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
And it was burnout.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I started hearing more and more people talk about burn out,
and particularly women who worked, who house old, were married,
not children, just juggling so many different things.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
But even people men and.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
People who don't have a they're not married, they don't
have cared they would talk about burnout because through the
technology we can be linked to work twenty.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Four to seven.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Twenty four to seven people tell me they get up
and check their cell phone for work emails eleven o'clock
at night, two in the morning. I mean, that's when
you can put yourself at risk of burnout. So there's
a woman, her name is Jeliah and this story Pieces
of Me. She owns her own business, is what she's
always wanted to do, and her business is phenomenally successful.
(03:22):
But she's pushing herself. She's starting to push herself too hard.
And if this is something where she gets to learn more,
it's a book of self discovery as well. She gets
to learn more. She's beginning to us. You say it's
a short story, it's forty four pages. At the end,
she's starting to learn more about herself. If this is
(03:46):
something you know, self discovery, really getting to know more
of yourself maybe that you're getting from yourself. And then
the cool way she comes in to the self discovery,
she's gonna come into her own power for real. This
is something that interests you. I encourage you to get
a copy of Pieces of Me, Rushing with courage into
(04:06):
the day. Again, that's Pieces of Me Rushing with courage
into Today, written by yours truly Dennis Turning, and whatever
you do, take good care of yourself. Also encourage you
to visit me online at www.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
I don't know why I keep saying that cisto dot
com c.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
H I s t e l l dot com against
c h I S T e l l dot com
And why are you over there?
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Sign up for my newsletter, the Book Lover's Happy.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And now let us go and meet our very special
Off the Shelf guests. I'm excited and this morning's special
Off the Shelf guest. It's Nicole Bulkeet and she is
an editor Essays and the author of several books, including
Redeeming Eve, What Matters Most The Happiness Thief who I
(05:04):
love that title and will end in fire. Her book
Redeeming Eve was nominated for both the Hemingway Foundation a
slash Pen Award Congratulations and the Janet who I don't
know I'm gonna say this right Janet heading Jerk Cat
Kafka Past for Fiction Impressive. Her third novel, The Happiness Thief,
(05:28):
was a twenty and twenty one Forward India Awards Founalist
and the cole has a master's in creative writing and
a pad. Go ahead Nicole and literature, both from New
York University. She is a wife, mother, and a dog lover.
Please check Nicole Boket and her his name is spelled
b O k a T. Check her and her books
(05:50):
out at Nicole bok At dot com. I'm a fellat
n I c O l E b O kat dot com.
Ni c O l E b o kat dot com.
You could go over there, save her site as a favorite.
You can even check out her site while you listen
(06:12):
to today's show and share it with book lovers everywhere. So
we are absolutely honored to have Nicole Boquet join us
on Off the Shelf this morning. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to
Off the Shelf, Nicole.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Oh, it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
The first few questions, I asked every guest on the
show to give our listeners some backstory on my guests
before I start launching into questions about them and their books.
So the kickoff today show, Nicole, please tell Off the
Shelf listeners.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Where you grew up and what life was like for
you growing up.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
I grew up on Long Island in New York. So,
you know, uh, I always wanted to live in New
York City, so I did for you know, college and
graduate school. And then when I had my first son,
we moved to New Jersey because it was too hard
(07:12):
to squeeze into apartment in New York in Manhattan. But
I grew up on Long Island. But you know, I
went into the city a lot by the time I was,
I guess in high school. Took acting classes there, then
took went to college at Northwestern for one year in Illinois,
(07:38):
but missed New York. Missed kind of the anonymitee and yeah,
and and I just let's see what else about where
I grew up. I was lucky in that I had,
you know, pretty much upper middle class background, but I
(08:04):
wasn't really a real suburban girl, you know, so I
really wanted a more of a city life.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Did you have siblings, brothers and sisters?
Speaker 4 (08:17):
I have two in fact this book, which I only
in this book, I was one. But the thing about it,
I did have two. I do have two siblings, a
brother and sister. But the idea for the book, which
was about a house fire, actually happened to us when
(08:38):
we were when I was a kid. And so when
you say where I grew up most of my life, yes,
I spent in my childhood in a house. But we
had It's nothing like what happens in my book. But
we had a house fire when I was a teenager
and we lived for I would say about not ten
(09:00):
months in a trailer, which was a very strange choice
by my parents, but they wanted to over kind of
oversee what was going on with rebuilding the house. So
we lived in quite confined quarters, three of us in
one room in a trailer in the driveway, rather than
renting another house. So I have some experience, although not
(09:23):
traumatic in the same way because I wasn't even home
when it happened. But so we had a house that
was then rebuilt, and that was probably the strangest experience
growing up.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Interesting.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Yeah, the whole back of the house there was an
electrical fire. We had people working on the house. I
can't remember exactly why. My father, I think was building
an office out of the garage and it caught on fire. Luckily,
my only two people home were my brother and sister,
and they got out of the house with the dog
(10:03):
and it didn't burn down. But you know, I came
home and there was like, oh, there's no back to
my Ah. It was just like it was like a
movie set or something like on a TV, like a
theater set, you know, like you just kind of walked
into the house and then there was like no living room.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
In the back.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
So I kind of took you know, this was a
very different fire. But when I imagined it, I imagined the
house I grew up in and how it was so
weird and everything was burned and talking about burnout. Everything
smelled of smoke and we had to throw out all
our clothes and a lot of books, and then we
(10:52):
had to rebuild the whole back of the house, which
you know, there was insurance and it was an you
know whatever. But yeah, so that was that was a
strange experience growing up. So that was probably my most bizarre.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, I can hear it when you when it's still
you can tell it still has impact on you. So
whether it was before the fire, and I'm glad everybody
was safe before after the fire. When you were a
little girl, what did you dream of becoming? What did
you say you want to be when you grew up?
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Well, it was divided between writing. I started writing seriously
when I was around nine or ten. And then I
also really liked acting, although so I did a lot
of shows I did. I did theater Regional Theater in
(11:53):
North Carolina when I was a teenager, summer stock, and
I actually had thought I was going to be a
theater major, which is why I went to Northwestern for theater.
But then I also was really interested in writing.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
And.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
I when I was around ten, I went to summer
camp and over whenever we had rest periods, I would
be writing.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And so.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
I told my parents. I don't know, I was kind
of young to go to summer camp attend but I
told my parents, like I didn't want to have to
participate in certain activities so that I could write the novel.
And they were like, my mother, you know, it was
like go play archery, like and I did, No, No,
(12:47):
I did. I mean I did. It wasn't like they
they didn't discourage it, you know. It wasn't so much
that it was more like it's summer, go outside, and
I did. I mean, I liked swimming. I wasn't a
big sports person, but I did really like swimming. I
really liked archery. I was in the shows, and then
(13:09):
in middle school, well junior high, I was into gymnastics.
So I had a lot of different interests. It wasn't
like I just sat in my room, you know. I was,
you know, very interested in gymnastics when I was young,
and I was in the balance beam and then I
like broke my foot coming off of the balance beam
(13:31):
and that was kind of the end of that career.
Oh but yeah, I did a lot, but I was
always writing, always writing. And so I wrote this book
if you want to call that, because it was pencil
when I was ten, and it was one hundred and
fifty pages. And that was my first attempt, you know,
(13:55):
and it was before computers, so I that aled. So,
you know, I handwrote it in camp and I don't know,
I just really enjoyed. My favorite book when I was
a kid was a wrinkling time and I really enjoyed
reading sort of speculative just toping whatever you called it
(14:18):
back then, you know, fiction, which I didn't write, but
you know, I really was very interested in it.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
It seemed like it came storytelling writing. It seemed like
it just was in you. It came natural to you.
And that shared I know you've also earned a master's
in creative writing and a PhD in literature.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
How has and.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I've asked other authors who've had degrees in writing, says,
how has earning these degrees impacted your storytelling?
Speaker 4 (14:53):
It's I don't think it's necessary. I mean, when I
was going for my PhD, it was basically to teach,
which I really liked. I liked teaching college and I
did that for over twenty years. It was a bit
of a diversion from writing. Like I wasn't really writing
creatively when I was getting my PhD. I was writing, obviously,
(15:16):
you know, academically, and uh I was reading more as
a writer maybe than a scholar, which was part of
why I preferred writing, But I was it was a
really great environment to be in. I really liked academics,
(15:40):
you know, I really liked school. I was you know,
I could have just been in school my whole life
if I could have afforded to, you know, like, I
really liked going I really liked for a long time
going to school and being in an academic environment. So
that was one thing. And then the other thing is
some of the people I met in my master's program,
(16:01):
which was very you know, a long time ago. I'm
still friendly with and I still sometimes even exchange work
with a couple m and even if I didn't meet
them the year or they were in my program. Like
I have a friend in town who went a few
years later than me, and we sort of like started
a writing group out here. So I think a lot
(16:21):
of it was just community more than work. Although I
did get work teaching for a while because of it,
so that was fun. And I really loved being in
a classroom, including teaching. You know, some people get really
nervous teaching, and I did at first, you know a
(16:42):
little bit. But I started teaching college classes when I
was twenty five, so I was very young looking, and
it was at first, this was at NYU, and it
was a little bit hard to get students to see
me as the teacher because I looked young for my age,
(17:06):
and so you know, I had to like sort of
learn how to engage them because they were close enough
in age to like look at me like I was
not an authority figure. But I still had fun with it,
you know. I I liked hearing everyone's stories. I really
(17:28):
loved talking about like when I even when I taught
like composition, which isn't fiction, you know, And people were
writing arguments. They were doing a lot of essays that
were argumentative essays, which I guess would be like more
like personal journalism, and I just liked hearing their stories,
(17:53):
you know, And so that was really fun and also
teaching critical thinking and how to like write an argument
and all that.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Okay, we want to now talk about your novels. Can
you give off the chef listeners an overview of your
first novel, Redeeming Eve.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
Oh god, that's so long ago. Yeah. Well, that was
probably my only novel that I would call comic, and
it was most autobiographical because it was based on a
graduate student who sort of freaks out when she has
a baby and her mother is a really big figure
and she's not so sure about herself as a mother
(18:34):
and an academic, so she kind of flees her marriage
for a little while. But it's also funny, so or
somewhat funny, you know, and it was kind of considered
a comic novel in a way that my other ones weren't.
And so yeah, so that was the first one, and
(18:59):
I would say definitely the most autobiographically, although I did
not flee from my child.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Oh okay, no, no, no, no, you talk about even
a little bit. How old is she.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
And what's her family like?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
How would you describe her personality in the book?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
She was I think, God, it's been early thirties, and
her family is, you know, middle class Jewish, kind of natty.
Her mother is a big figure who gets a TV show.
(19:42):
Her dad's nice, not as effectual, so a little bit
like mine, but not completely. You know, obviously my mother
didn't have a TV show. You know, it's all kind
of exaggerated, but she has a basically stable upbringing, not
(20:07):
too extreme, I don't think. And that book I kind
of wrote right on the heels of writing my dissertations.
So I was trying to figure out how to write
a novel, you know, I was trying to figure out
from all the input I had from other writers. So
(20:30):
I have like some sections and letters and a little
bit different than what I would do now, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I was.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
I was very like influenced by academia when I wrote
that book. Like, she's a Jane Austen person. She loves
Jane Austen, and she really wants her life to be
like a Jane Austen. Characters you know, very neat the
(21:00):
opposite of her family, you know, like a need ending,
you know, like clean. There's kind of like she wants
rules in life and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
So she sounds interesting. Now how you said, she's in
her thirties, so she's got a little bit of life.
She's got some experiences. I died and she's in her thirties.
I think she's had some experiences. She sounds like an
interesting character.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Well, the last book is my youngest Character, which is
really strange.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Okay, now we want to talk about The Happiness Theef next.
I want to try to get to all of your books,
definitely your latest one, but love the titles I was
telling earlier in the intro The Happiness Thee. Can you
please give us a brief overview of the book The
Happiness Beef.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Okay, so this one came. Okay, So it's about two sisters. Well,
they're half sisters and or stepsisters, I guess, because they
don't their parents married, but they so Natalie's mother married
(22:19):
Isabelle's father, so it's kind of it's mostly about their relationship,
but it's also about a trauma that happened to Natalie,
who's the main character when she was young and there
was a car accident and her mother was killed. And
the thing is that I was really interested in the
(22:39):
time at the time in a lot of these wellness
kind of industry, and I got really it was really
fun to do a lot of research on like positive psychology.
(22:59):
So Isabelle, who's her sister, is a wellness guru. So
she has a PhD in psychology, but she becomes this
sort of like she has a following. It's not a
cult or anything like that. You know, she was well
regarded and she starts having these seminars and happiness and
(23:28):
Natalie starts taking them, and so it's sort of but
underlying all of it is a mystery of how this
car accident happened that killed her mother, what happened, what
was her role in it? And so it's sort of
like a mixed genre where it is a mystery, but
(23:50):
it's also about like post traumatic stress, what you can remember,
what you can't remember, what role that plays in your life,
how trying to use alternative therapies. You know, people who
do a lot of these alternative wellness things impact them.
(24:12):
And it's a little bit of a takedown on some
of the positive psychology movement, not entirely, you know, but
I just sort of had fun with the idea of
having read so many books about it, I started to think,
(24:33):
this is like a really big business, you know. Like
so I start to think, like, wow, you can really
make a lot of money at this. And so her
sister makes a lot of money at it, you know,
and so it's kind of like a duel, Like I said,
thing about trauma, but also about mystery and buried sea
(25:00):
sts and she can't remember things the main So like
that was really interesting to me because I like the
idea of characters who have like holes in their memory,
you know, it makes for good plots and buried secrets
(25:21):
in their family, things that have to be unraveled and discovered,
and a little twisty. It's not like it's not typical
murder mystery, you know. It's not like someone dies on
the first page and then you have to find out
who did it? But why did her mother die? What happened?
(25:45):
What happened to causes car accident? Because Natalie thinks it
was her fault. She was a kid. She was a kid,
but she thinks that she was the reason for it.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
They say kids blame themselves.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
When and where is the story set and why did
you why did you choose this particular location.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Well, it was set in Boston, and at the time
I was working with an agent who was like, Okay,
too many books in New York and that's an honest reason.
And she's like, pick another place. Pick pick some place
like Kansas. I'm like, well, I've never lived in Kansas.
I can't write a whole book from Kansas. I had
lived for a year in the Chicago suburbs, but I
(26:25):
had been spending some time up in Boston, and I
liked that location because she's a she's not only is
a food photographer, and her sister's like sort of an
academic y kind of person from that kind of a family.
And I was like, Okay, Boston has a lot of
these kind of college town, you know, colleges, and it
(26:52):
was easy for me, living in New Jersey to go
up there and to explore neighborhoods. And then the beginning
takes place in the Cayman Islands because I wanted it
to be. She goes to a big Happiness World Happiness conference, which,
by the way, is a real thing, and they usually yeah,
there's like the World Happiness Conference. They usually take place
(27:13):
in Australia, and I'm like, well, I can't go to
a and not only that, but they're like really expensive
to attend, Like if you want to attend and take
these seminars, you have to fly to Australia, and like
they do now have them online. But I was like, well,
she's not going to a World Happiness Convention in Australia.
(27:34):
So I said, I'll just put on an island. And
it was the one Caribbean island that I had been to,
so I figured, okay, I'll put it there. This is
really pretty and they have a ton of places like
conference places and you know, places to eat and hold
these kind of things, you know, And I thought it
(27:57):
would be easy and kind of luxurious without having to
go do research so far away, you know. But so
that was why I decided to put the World Happiness Conference.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
World Happiness Conference. Yes that I might check that out.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Okay, So there are many happiness conferences, but there's like
a particular one I was researching, and there are really
big name people go to them. You know, they're sort
of like authors, but then they're also like people who've
done a lot of research on positive psychology, and you know,
(28:41):
it's not really like yoga necessarily, Like it's like a
lot of psychologists and it's it's kind of really fun
to follow what they do. You know, I really get
into the research of it. But there are other ones too.
They're like there's a place in New York City that
(29:04):
has like this open center and you can take all
these classes. But you know, a lot of the seminars
have to do with just studies people have done about
what makes people happy. And then there's also a Gallup
poll every year of like, you know, the world's happiest
(29:27):
countries and wire yes, right right, all of that, and
they kind of they put that into some of it,
so like, you know, some of it really is just
societal and like there's only so much you can do
to change. But you know, from an individual's point of view,
the World Happiness Conference is like for leaders and happiness
(29:50):
to also like talk about what makes people happy. It's
really interesting and they have Yeah, and move.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
From you here on office ship. But those who didn't
notice such a conference now you come up with great titles.
Nicole call Us was happening at the start of what
matters most.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Oh, well, that one was a little bit more of
a That novel was wasn't my name? That was my
agent at the times named for it. And that book
was also about secrets mothers and daughters, like I really
(30:33):
like these kind of family things like the death of
her father and then all kinds of secrets that come
out about her family and her mother, and similar themes
to the happiness deep but a little bit more grounded,
(30:56):
you know, it's not a mystery in the same way
her father has just died, and so that's a little,
you know, a bit of a said opening. And right
before that we see we see it through two people's
points of view. It's her mother's and hers. The main
character Georgie and her mother and their different upbringings and
(31:22):
secrets the mother has kept from her daughter. So that
was probably the most commercially what's the right word marketed
of the books. Oh, because young Win and they had
a more commercial view of it. So they changed my name,
(31:45):
so that of my book, whereas like if you published
with a smaller press, they usually won't change your name.
Although this new book I had a different name and
they suggested I change it, so I came up with
this name the less.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Now, how does Georgie murkins relationship with her father Adam
impact her her relationship with her son?
Speaker 4 (32:13):
Oh god, I'm trying to remember. I think, you know,
in most of the books, the father figures are pretty
benign and decent and good people who, you know, make
(32:33):
the main characters more sympathetic mothers. So I would say, yeah,
that that, you know, love for your father like kind
of informs most of my books, and this one too. Yeah,
(33:02):
I don't know, I have to think about it.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Okay, is Georgie is she like her mother a stale?
Is she similar to her mother?
Speaker 4 (33:11):
No?
Speaker 3 (33:11):
And then how are they different? In how are they alike?
Speaker 4 (33:17):
M hm, Georgie's softer and still is very ambitious, very
you know, she's colder, she's more successful. So I mean
(33:39):
that's kind of a theme and a bunch of my books,
not Happiness Thief because the mother is dead. Yeah, yeah,
I mean, but it's kind of a theme, the mother
daughter relationship, the mother father relationship, the mother child relationship.
Although not all of them have sons, you.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Know, but that mother daughter relationship is strained. Would you
say that's a thing.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
In most of them? Yeah, Like in my first one. Yes,
definitely my first book. It's strained, but not in a
kind of comic way where like she just wants to
get the hell away from her mother because her mother
is driving her crazy, but not in like a you know,
(34:32):
traumatic way. It's just you know, like a big personality
and she's in a more gregarious mother than a Stele.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Okay, she's more fuz.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
I'm like, you're fuck the daughter's friends probably like i'ming
over being around our mother. Now we want, I want
to talk about will End in Fire. You're sort of
kind of alluding to it at the start at today's show.
How do Ellie Stone and Josh Meat and the book
Will End in Fire?
Speaker 4 (35:09):
Oh no, they're siblings.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, can you introduce us then
give us, give us some tell us about their personality
if they were like real people that they were coming
to some event and you were going to introduce them.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Okay, Well, Ellie and Josh.
Speaker 4 (35:28):
Okay, Ellie's they're young, they're in their twenties. They kind
of have they had a good relationship when they were young.
They are young, but when they were kids, and then
as time went by, they sort of started having a
contentious relationship with a lot of like they were sibling
(35:50):
rivalry in their family. And Ellie's the older one and
she's very, very driven to succeed in the world. And
her younger brother, Josh, gets a soccer scholarship to college
and he's a really good athlete, but he gets addicted
(36:13):
to taking adderall and a bunch of other things in
order to thrive as both an athlete and a student,
which becomes a problem, which it is a problem at
the beginning of the book. We don't see them when
they're younger, really accept in one chapter, and so he's
(36:35):
going to have to start a program for addiction, which
he resents because you know, he's already i think twenty four,
and he's living with his parents, which she doesn't like,
you know, and she's living in the city with her
best friend from high school and she has a job,
and you know, there's just a lot of strain between
(36:56):
the two of them because Elie resents it just resents
all the attention Josh has gotten by being a screw up,
you know, because they're young, and you know, she's really
doing a good job of things, and she's paying off
her student loans and all that. So things are not
(37:19):
great between them when the book starts, But like I said,
when they were younger, they had more of a bond
until I'd say, she goes to college and Josh is
in high school something, and then he becomes a big wig.
He has a girlfriend. He still has the same girlfriend
(37:40):
he had from college. Things are strained between them because
he's been screwing up. His girlfriend lives in Brooklyn. So
this book is really like placed pretty close to home.
Elie lives on the Washington Heights up all the way
(38:04):
uptown in New York with her friend, and Josh is
living at home until he can get his himself together.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
How many years apart are they three?
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Three? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Okay, yeah, so they're not that far apart.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
No, And you know, Josh was like very popular in
high school because he was an athlete, and Ellie was
more like she wasn't unpopular, she was just studious and
sort of introverted.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Ah okay, I'm saying that theme in some of your
books too. This is it's outgoing person who really loves
being out in the in the public, and then there's
somebody who's reserved. Now, how did Josh get burned and
how did his injuries impact Ellie's in his relationship.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Well, I mean, he's in the hospital for the first
part of the book, so he's really badly injured. So
the main thing is that Ellie was in the house
before the fire started. She left, so she feels really guilty, wow,
(39:14):
like really really guilty for leaving him there. And mystery
in this book is who started the fire?
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
Yeah, and so she was a smoker, not a big one.
Oh wow, keep thinking did she leave a cigarette burning?
Did she? It's too much damage to figure out what happened.
So the whole book is really like her guilt, what happened?
What started the fire? Who did it? They had a fight,
(39:45):
she left, and he had just had a fight with
his girlfriend on the phone. So she's sort of a
semi suspect, although not exactly, but you know, she's spoken
to You know, the police are investigating because they have
(40:05):
to investigate anything they think might be arsenal. But most
fires are accidents, and I did a lot of research
on that. How do you know if it's arson versus
an accident? Because you know, most fire you have to
get a forensic specialist blah blah blah, and they don't
you know, they don't really Like the police do interview
(40:26):
Ellie a couple of times, but they can't really pin
it on on her. There's no real proof of what started.
So she becomes like sort of obsessed with trying to
figure out how it started, not just to get herself
off the hook, but also because like her family's destroyed
(40:46):
and she wants to figure out what happened, and like
her parents are to traumatize, and they're not really They
are involved with talking to the police, but not in
the way that Allie is, because she's doing research and
she's trying to figure it out and all that. And
(41:07):
she also gets really close to like Josh's circle of friends,
well mostly his best friend and his girlfriend, to try
to see was he depressed, was he like suicidal? Was
he taking drugs? Did he do this accidentally? Did he
leave something burning? So like there's that whole.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Well you this this mystery I'm staying a movie.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
So when you were writing this, because I watched when
I I love to watch mystery movies and then Lit's
listen to you described well end and fire. When you
were writing it, did you see it playing out like
a movie in your head?
Speaker 4 (41:45):
Well, I really, you know, it's hard to say, like
sometimes but like I I reorganized it many times, you know,
and when you rewrite sometimes even now talking about like
what matters most whatever, I'm like, wait, what was Anny like?
Because you rewrite so many times that like sometimes I'll think,
oh no, that I'm not this book because I'm so
(42:07):
close to it. But you think, well, that was originally
what I was going to do, but then I changed that,
you know, And so I wasn't always sure how this
was going to end. And I don't know if people
know with movies, they probably edit those two, you know,
(42:27):
I've never done one. I did always know how the
having this sleep was going to end, you know. I
always knew that last scene that was always playing in
my head, that last scene. This one was different, and
I changed the very last scene, and I was like
excited to figure out what I wanted to happen at
the end because I just wasn't sure how to finish,
(42:50):
you know what I mean. I wasn't sure. I wanted
to make it a little bit different. And in that respect,
it's kind of like you're editing a movie in your
head all the time, you know, and you know how
like sometimes you watch these like TV series now that
are like six to eight episodes and there's some mystery
(43:12):
and you're like, wait, what you know, and they kind
of like twist around and you're like, wait, I don't
remember what happened last time, so you have to go
back and see. But it's not that different when you're writing.
So one thing I did do differently than I did
with my first two books, which you know I wrote
when I was younger. I would rewrite outlines over and
(43:35):
over again. Ah yeah, and I like would give them
to like an editor, like some freelance editor I used,
or sometimes two people, and I would say, Okay, you
have to help me with this plot, because without that,
you're just kind of meandering when you're writing, you know
what I mean, if you're going to write something like this,
(43:58):
you need to like kind and nail those plot points,
you know, in a way that like if you're writing
maybe like a family saga or historical I mean, most
books have to have a plot, let's face it, they
have to be very plotted. But if it's a more
lyrical novel whatever, you don't have to worry so much
(44:21):
about that. But here I was like, okay, I really
want this to I want to figure this out, you know,
who did what when? And also the other thing then
is the other hard part is that you have to
make sure that none of the characters seem unbelievable like
they can be. They can be sort of evil, but
(44:45):
they can't be completely evil, right yeah, I mean you
don't want them to be like one dimensional.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
Yeah yeah, yeah, where people are like that. This doesn't
sound like.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Although I've seen movies where I think that's that's worked. Now,
what have what have readers been saying? What have you
been hearing from readers about Will End in Fire?
Speaker 4 (45:10):
I mean mostly good, you know, it's mostly good and positive.
I've gotten pretty positive positive reviews and from bloggers and
from Kirkus and from a few you know, the other
place I've sent it. Some people really want like miss
(45:32):
The only thing that I will say is like, I'm
really interested in character and language and development and not
just like plot plot plot plot plot. So it's not
a book where like a woman or man gets thorn
down the stairs, you know what I mean, or baby
gets kidnapped and then every page are like wait, we
(45:54):
you know, I really wanted to develop not just the
plot and and I think that most people do like this.
I want there to be a sense of it being
it somewhat character driven in that I have to know
(46:15):
each of them, excuse me, each of these characters' motivations
for why they do what they do. And even you know,
I have to feel some empathy, even for the least
appealing characters, you know how like actors say, I can't
play someone if I don't understand them or whatever. Right, So, like,
(46:39):
even if they're like a horrible human being, you have
to know, like, well, something made them this way, Like
why are they like this? They weren't just born. I mean,
you know, they're terrible people in the world. There really are,
and but you want to like kind of understand them
and make them interesting. And you know, terrible people can
be really fascinating, you know.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yeah, you can see a boy the movies and the
popular books. Yes, yeah, somebody that you thinks are to understand.
Uh yeah, they do tend to make for fascinating characters.
I am so happy that you've gotten those great reviews
and good ones on Will End And it sounds like
a mystery.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
I see it as a movie.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
It's something that I could see on a television, a
TV movie. This is what I can see when you're
describing will end and find. I love to hear authors
talk about their books, their characters, the story development.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
Et cetera.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
Now, speaking about writing, In addition to writing books, you
offer editorial services.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
Can you tell us about some of your editorial services
that you offer?
Speaker 4 (47:49):
Okay, well, I have mostly edited, but I've also ghost
written some ghost through I propose for someone, which just
means they give me all their material and I have
to shape it. That was nonfiction. Those are easier to write,
you know, a propos you know, because you don't really
(48:10):
write a proposal for a novel. But I actually rewrote
a novel for people because their first language wasn't English. Okay,
so I did that, And I'm working with somebody now
on an idea for a novel. But mostly I edit,
which basically means people will send me anything. Really, there
(48:36):
are limits to what I can edit, obviously, Like I'm
not gonna edit a science dissertation, but like if it's
nonfiction or fiction, it's fine. I've edited essays that have
been published like in the Washington Post or you know,
not not not political, you know, I have but I've
(48:57):
done because they have on staff editors, but I've edited,
you know, first person pieces, and then I mostly edit.
I would say memoir the most popular are memoirs and novels.
And what I do is I read the whole book
(49:20):
with notes, and if they want line it, it's I'll
do it. Although you know, a lot of times they're
going to be rewriting, but I can't help myself. So,
like if they make a similar kind of mistake over
and over again, you know, grammatical or just like plot
or character whatever, I will point out, flesh out the
(49:42):
scene here, flesh out the scene there. I don't really
you know, give it. Just they're very you know, only
people make a lot of similar mistakes, you know, so
I'm used to it, like where they go into different
points of view without really any signposts, or they don't
(50:04):
develop scenes or whatever, and so I'm very good at.
Like the one thing I think I've gotten good at
is kind of assessing an overall idea of what's missing
and what's strong about a book, and where the writer
really needs to zero in on their book in order
(50:27):
to either self publish or send it to an agent
or small press, whatever their choice is, to make it
as polished as possible and also as engaging so somebody
feels compelled to read it. And I do go to
a writing group where everybody critiques each other's work really quickly,
(50:50):
and so it does sharpen your skills as an editor,
especially for short pieces, if you're doing it really quickly
or like a okay, you want to catch the reader's attention.
This is what you want. And there's a difference between
the marketplace and you know, what I might enjoy like
(51:11):
I might, you know, an editor might be looking for
something very timely. But what I like about fiction is
that I've been doing this for so long with fiction,
between studying fiction, going to school for fiction. So even
though I can do nonfiction and I definitely think memoirs
close to fiction in structure, I really think my strain
(51:36):
is fiction, you know, Like I said, I think I
understand what works the best in fiction, but I have
done I have done nonfiction books too, Like I've edited
a book about nutrition, you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Yeah, yeah, Are you taking on new clients for our
listeners who might be in it and which.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
Always take I'm always taking on new clients. I have
one that I'm working on right now alonger project. But yes,
I take on new clients all the time. And what's
really great about it is like, you know, I'll tell
a client, Okay, this will take me three weeks, and
it's done in three weeks, like I'm you unless there's
(52:22):
like an illness or you know, something happens. It's unprecedented.
I will get it done because I can look at
a manuscript and know how long it will take me
to do, you know, because there's like an end. It's
nice to have sort of like okay, it's three hundred pages.
I can tell you how long this will take me.
Speaker 3 (52:43):
Okay, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (52:44):
It's a little bit different than when you have an
ongoing project with people. And I've done that too. I've
I've had clients that I helped over a couple of
years and they'll send me a chapter at a time
or you know, and that was that's really great. If
I get along with the people, which I almost always do,
like you know, they continue with me because we get along,
(53:04):
and then like it's nice to see them finish, you know,
and to like publish or to self publish or to
publish with a small press or whatever they do, but
like I always feel really happy for them.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
Yes, I want to ask you we're talking editing.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
You've written, you studied the craft of storytelling, character development,
et cetera. Can you share, because all that comes down
to this, if you want to go public with your book, right,
and if you're not just writing a story for yourself,
can you share three to four steps that you personally
take that you found to be effective at getting the
(53:43):
word out about your books.
Speaker 4 (53:46):
Well, that's the hardest part of the process because publishing
has changed so much and continues to evolve. So you know,
there was a way of standard way of doing everything,
which was you get an agent. The agent tries to
sell the book, the books taken by a traditional press
(54:07):
or a small press, and then you're kind of out
of it. You don't do it. I mean, you did
some stuff, you know what I mean, You would do
a reading at Barnes and Noble or whatever. Now, of course,
everything is so much online, and there are hybrids and
there are self publishing, and there are all these small presses,
(54:27):
and there are different ways to do things. And it's
I think gotten harder to get an agent because or
at least not to get an agent. But to get
a major publisher because they've consolidated. And I'm always honest
with clients that they do really care. They've always cared
(54:49):
about sales. The difference is that now they really want big,
big sales and to be like an editor could green
light your bo book and now and I have friends
that happened to and now they have to get permissioned
from sales and marketing departments and whatever. So the editor
(55:12):
doesn't have as much power in some you know, in
some areas. And also if your debut or you're in
a second book doesn't sell well, then you get dropped.
So you know, there are ways to publish, including self
publishing now that you can. You have to be very
(55:35):
entrepreneurial to self published.
Speaker 3 (55:37):
Oh yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 4 (55:39):
And so one of the things that I tell my
clients is you have to know yourself, like how much
do you know about marketing? How much do you know?
How comfortable are you talking about yourself on Facebook? On Instagram?
Now there's this Twitter band, so not Twitter TikTok? Do
all happen with booktop? Things really changed over COVID because
(56:04):
everything became zoom and online and you know, so there
became a lot of like, instead of giving readings and bookstores,
which was already sort of waning a little bit, it
became even more online. So you do have to be
willing to in some cases or most cases, either become
(56:28):
your own publicists because you're really good at it, or
hire a publicist. You know, so there's like, there's different,
you know, book blogging that's become really big gone a
book blogging tour like that didn't exist when I started writing.
I have friends who started publishing a long time ago,
(56:50):
and they're very old school. And I pushed one of
my friends who's a great writer and had her second
book come out by a different imprint than her first,
and I kept telling her I won't name names, and
I kept saying, you really should hire a publisher. She's like,
that's okay, I'm a publicist of the company. I was like, no, please,
(57:11):
And so then afterwards she was like, the publicist forgot
to send my book to this isn't it? And thank
you for telling me about these book blogging tours, and
thank you for telling me about this and that, because
I think, you know, you have to be a you
have to be savvy about Yes, you have to be
savvy about the Internet. You have to be savvy about marketing.
(57:32):
You have to be willing to put yourself out there,
even if you're uncomfortable. A lot of writers are pretty
introverted and so it's kind of a brave new world
of publishing that's always changing.
Speaker 2 (57:47):
So you you're book the book blogs, the book blogs,
you're saying, and you can do something in store. I know, well,
I am a book manager. Told me bookstore that they
did have an author come and do signings during the
Christmas holidays and they did quite well. So some of
those depending on how it's set up, the book signings,
(58:07):
the book blogs. Social media video is very popular and
I still think going to in person events that they
are attracting thousands and thousands of role Yeah, and then
ads also doing ads at the right locations. Those also
can help because if you're not just writing for yourself,
(58:28):
you want to you want to get eyes on your books,
You're going to have to figure out how to market
and pure.
Speaker 4 (58:36):
You know. The weirdest thing that happened to me was
I went when I did what matters most don't. I
can't remember who hooked me up with this, and my
book was you know, I'm Jewish, but the book wasn't okay,
the character was Jewish, but it wasn't a big scene
in the book. But somehow I got invited to this
(58:58):
group of it was mostly Jewish women at some club
on Long Island, and it was the biggest crowd I'd
ever had. And Wow, the book wasn't about you know
what I mean, like there was like.
Speaker 3 (59:10):
One like the fire Yeah was still Oh my god,
that's like a take it, take it, yeah.
Speaker 4 (59:17):
And so they're like lining up because they were you know,
I was younger, Wow, older women, and they were buying
it for their wo daughters and nephews and nieces, and
I was like wow, you know. And so I do
know another writer, and she writes historical Jewish fiction. When
I say that, I mean like from two thousand years ago,
you know, not the Holocaust or whatever. And so she
(59:38):
writes very specifically about Jewish history, ancient Jewish history, or
I think one book took place during Napoleon's time. And
so she gets invited to a time very hooked up
in like these kind of you know, sin dogs or
(01:00:00):
women's groups or counsels of this or you know, And
that's a really good way to get out there.
Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
Ye who have.
Speaker 4 (01:00:09):
You know, I'm not gonna like, I'm not going to
go to like the burn units and you know, but
if you can find like you're a niche, you know,
like history writers events or thrillers or crime writer events,
or you know, people who like certain kinds of books.
(01:00:29):
If you write rom coms, then you go to do
those kind of things. There are a lot of authors
who do the smallest book signings in the world, but
they'll still show up in Lake Brooklyn or you know,
somewhere in Maine, and they'll show up at these events
and there's maybe ten people will buy their book. But
if you do, if you have the stamina and you
do it enough, you can, Yes, you can get a
(01:00:53):
name for yourself as someone who shows up and reads
and signs and talks to people who are interested you know,
book channels, Yeah, those kind of things. Like I do
think that that's like, that's a really good way of
getting your name out there, because like very few writers
(01:01:14):
get a publisher's sending them on book towards anymore.
Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
No, Yeah, you got to be a big, big, big
name to do that.
Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Now, where as we as we come to a close,
I could keep talking to you, on and on and
on the CO have so much enjoyed connecting with you
today than you just offer so much from your editorial services,
your your in depth and I could tell your passionate
about storytelling.
Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
Where can off the shelf listeners get a copy of
your books?
Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
Well, the easiest is Amazon, Let's face it, it's the easiest.
You can also go to Barnes and Noble. I think
it's on Bookshop, but I Amazon or Barnes and Noble
is probably the easiest way. Okay, online you know.
Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
Are you on any social media? And if so, how
can Christmas?
Speaker 4 (01:02:11):
Facebook and Instagram? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
And what they just look up Nicole bouket Ya and
you would come up yeah, okay, okay. We have so
enjoyed connecting with Nicole Bolcat. She is an editor and
she says she's taking new plans, y'all. She's an editor,
essays and the author of several books, including Redeeming Eve,
(01:02:37):
What Matters Most, The Happiness Thing and Will End in Fire,
the one I see in some movie format in hearing
her describe it. She she has won and been nominated
for book awards, including him any Way Foundation, Pen Award
and just Congratulations to her.
Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
Encourage you to check her out online the.
Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Co bouquet at n I c O L E b
ok A t dot com. Again, that's NI c O
L E b ok A T dot com.
Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
Thank you, thank you, thank.
Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
You, thank you so much for the call and our
author so enjoyed you and to our Off the Shelf listeners.
Please come back here next Saturday eleven am each your
standard time, but one of the show streamers, you can
listen to it at any day, anytime. Encourage you to
share Off the showf with book lovers, your colleagues, your friends,
(01:03:33):
your family, your neighbors, book lovers everywhere where.
Speaker 3 (01:03:38):
These authors are just an absolute treat.
Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
When the show finishes streaming and I get it ready,
n call, I'll send you a link to the show
to our listeners.
Speaker 4 (01:03:47):
As I always tell you.
Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
This is the truth. You are just absolutely amazing. You
are phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Please go out and create a wonderful day for yourself
today and I'll see you back here at Off the
Shelf next week.
Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
Thank you and bye for now.
Speaker 4 (01:04:05):
Thank you,
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