October 1, 2023 • 23 mins
Aged just fifteen, Ben attended the Army's selection weekend for potential officers and subsequently embarked on six gruelling years of training and assessment to fulfil my childhood dream.After graduating from the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst, Ben completed two tours of duty in Iraq as a Captain in the British Army. It was during hia first tour in 2003, at just 23 years old, that he had to ask the unthinkable of two young soldiers. This experience and reflecting on what made them do as he asked caused the passion that he has for leadership to burn even stronger.
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(00:00):
Whether you believe it or not,you are a leader in your everyday life.
Whether it's within your family, inyour work environment, or even online,
you can and will affect change inthose around you. Join me in
conversation with authors, professors and leaders, so together we can learn all things
regarding leadership and life. I amyour host, Fernando Carrillo, and welcome
(00:22):
to another episode of London's Leadership Podcast. Hello everybody, and welcome to London's
Leadership Podcast. It's been a whileand it's so good to be back together.
Today. I'm with Ben and we'regoing to learn a bit about failure.
I've just come back from time awayin America. I was at a
(00:42):
leadership conference and they spoke a loton the subject of failure and what we
can learn from it. And Iwas just so struck by how a recent
failure in my life had really affectedme. Like I just felt like I
wasn't a good leader, Like Iwasn't up to the task. I felt
like, oh, if I ifI was so passionate about this, if
(01:04):
I really believed I could do it, and I just failed. I felt
myself, I felt the people,the people on my team. I just
it like it really took. It'staking me about a year and a half
to recover from it and to beable to stand up again and even talk
about leadership, because I just feltlike such a fraud. But now that
(01:27):
I'm on the other side of it, I guess I've learned so much from
it and what to do, whatnot to do, the lessons I learned
from it, and and I reallywanted to learn from others and see how
other people have faced failures, howthey've overcome them, and how those failures
have shaped them. But Ben,you've got such a fascinating story, partly
(01:49):
from being at Sandhurst, why don'tyou tell our listeners a little bit about
yourself and what you're up to.Yeah, so thank you and thanks for
having me. And very briefly,probably from the age of about seven,
I've decided that I wanted to gointo the into the British Army, and
probably out of naivety, my mumblessed it said well, Ben, you
can only go in if you're goingas an officer, because I think she
(02:12):
thought that meant I'd be nice andsafe towards the back somewhere of the physical
metaphorical battleground, right But anyway,at sixteen, I managed to get a
place at the Army's sixth form College. I went from there onto the Army's
University, from there on to theraw Military Academy, Sandhurst, where I
did my training to become a leaderand officer in the military, and served
(02:36):
five years in the Army after that, leaving as a captain in late two
thousand and six, having deployed toenrapt twice. So that's the brief story
and sort of the military journey ifyou like. But yeah, failure is
an interesting, interesting question and topicto discuss for sure. And then before
(02:59):
we go into the topic of failure, I've been I've been reading loads of
books on Sandhurst and what was that? What was it like? What kind
of discipline does it instill in you? What? What? What? What's
the culture like? Because I've alwaysfound it fascinating Sandhurst and I read a
lot on the seals and the kindof people it forms. So tell us
(03:21):
a little bit about the culture ofSandhurst and how it really impacted you.
Well, the best way to describeit was how I heard it described.
I think when I was sixteen andsomeone who graduated from Sandhurst said, going
to Sandhurst is a bit like beingrepeatedly hit over the head with a hammer.
You're just glad when it stops,which in some ways is true,
(03:42):
especially if you've aspired to get thereand graduate for so long. You're just
desperate to get through it and you'redesperate to to not fail. Really,
And at the same time, lotsof people describe Sandhurst as the best leadership
training in the world. Right Idon't know if that's one hundred percent true,
(04:03):
because I've not experienced lots of theother leadership training in the world,
but it is. It is exceptionalin terms of the like the fundamental beliefs
it teaches you, and probably morethan anything something that's spoken about not that
commonly in terms of leadership, butI do see it gaining a little bit
(04:24):
of traction at the minute, especiallyactually in from the Center Farmy Leadership,
which is based as Sandurst. Thisidea of teamship really teaching you to be
be a team player, which nomatter how senior you are as a leader,
you still need to be a greatteam player as well. And probably
that's one of the strongest things thatI took from Sandhurst, as well as
(04:46):
been able to give up early andmake your bed and nine your shirts and
all that good stuff. Yeah whatwhat other so protably being a team player?
What are some of the other kindof fundamental beliefs that Sandhurst is steals
in you. Yeah, so thisis on leadership because I think, yeah,
so, both very overtly and almoston a underlying subconscious basis. It
(05:15):
really teaches you. It certainly taughtme the importance of relationships and connection as
almost one of the foundational elements ofleadership. So it's just drummed into us
again and again and again. Ifwe were going to potentially one day have
to ask soldiers to make the ultimatesacrifice, they would only do that if
(05:39):
they knew that we knew them andcared about them as individuals rather than just
a soldier or in the corporate world, like a number or a cost on
the profit and loss statement. Right, So it's fundamentally about like knowing your
people and the fact that you leadpeople. It's a bit of a cliche
(06:00):
statement. I forget who said it, might have been Drucker somebody like that,
that you lead people, you managethings like it's fundamentally true. Like
we're talking mimutary about leading leading people. Yeah, I think I read somewhere
that in Sandhurst one of the keysayings is served to lead. Is that
right? One of the key attributesthat they teach you is service and servant
(06:24):
leadership. So yeah, well,I've been reading loads and on Sandhurst,
and from I read one author PaulNelson, which I'm I'm planning on speaking
to him soon. And he wrotea book called stand Up Straight or Stand
Upright or something. It's on mybookshelf. Yeah, unbelievable book on Sandhurst.
(06:46):
So but Ben, tell us,what was it you see? You
went to Afghanistan? What was thatlike? Iraq? Iraq twice? Iraq?
Sorry, irraight? What was thatlike? Well, that's a big
question. I'm not really sure.How do you answer? What was iract
like? Sorry? So I went, I deployed twice. The first time
(07:06):
was in two thousand and three atthe start of the sort of the second
Golf conflict, ultimately the second thefirst time, I'm sorry, It's what
I've spent years training training to do. So there was Yes, there was
a degree of nervousness and anxiety anda little bit of bit of fear.
(07:31):
But actually, as a as aleader, you're almost in a doubly privileged
position because you've got so much tothink about in terms of making plans and
leading operations and looking after your yoursoldiers and all the other tasks and activities
that come with being a leader,that you don't really get that much time
(07:55):
to sit and worry about what's what'sgoing on. And actually, one of
my biggest reflections looking back, ifthere's something I would have done differently I
could go back and be that leaderat that time again, would be to
pay much more attention to how theprivate soldiers were feeling, who had a
lot more time on their hands andless planning and thinking to be doing.
(08:15):
Because some of the junior soldiers,because I had a couple of lads who
had just turned eighteen, they reallyjust had to worry about them, so
they had a lot of time tothink and worry. But ultimately, in
a weird way, it was agood experience, like I learned a lot
about myself and leadership, and Igot to test myself against what it was
(08:37):
that I wanted to do for somany years. Second time was very different.
Second time was getting up for twoyears later. It was the era
of roadside bombs IDs. We didn'tnecessarily know who we were fighting, whether
enemy and inverted commas were And bythat stage I decided I was leaving the
(08:58):
army halfway. By pre course ofthe way through that deployment, I came
home for ten days to get married, so arguably my heart wasn't quite in
it as much, and I knewI felt I had more more to lose,
so I was. I was slightlytorn and conflicted the second time around.
I really wanted to continue to serveand look after, support and protect
(09:20):
the soldiers I had the privilege tolead, but a big part of me
was making sure I got home safebecause I was looking forward to my new
life with my soon to be wife. So the second time was difficult.
M. Well, thank you somuch for your service to us. Spend
So failure, What does failure meanto you? So I found this fascinating.
(09:43):
When you mentioned were going to talkabout this, I did what I
often do, so I had togo back and looked at the dictionary definition
of failure. The Oxford definition saysa lack of success in doing or achieving
something M And that means we're thenforehave to define success right And this is
(10:05):
the way it starts to get reallyinteresting. So back to the military and
Santa's. When I was at Santa's, success was getting through it and not
failing either, not completely failing topass the course and not having to redo
another term in the military, likewe're very much. Certainly when I serve,
we had this view of success atalmost all costs, which makes sense,
(10:26):
right because in the military that's we'vegot a mission to commission to complete.
But yeah, so I think mymind set around failure up to my
probably mid thirties was like avoid failureat all costs. But I'm also addicted
to sort of learning and development andgrowth, so more now and now I
(10:52):
tend not ready to view much asa failure. And that's not meant to
sound particularly trite or are amazing,like, so long as I'm learning something
and growing and developing in some way, then if I really don't view as
a failure, because I forget againwho said it, Like, he who
makes no mistakes normally makes nothing atall. Right, And the biggest lessons
(11:18):
I've learned, most powerful lessons havecome from what we might term as a
failure. Really, I really lovethat he who makes no mistakes, makes
nothing at all absolutely brilliant. Sometimeswe can be so failure verse, so
we actually don't end up doing anything. So many of us have failed of
(11:39):
failing that we don't step out tofulfill our dreams. That many of us
have a faid of failures that wedon't step out to feel the call that
we have on our lives. We'rejust too afraid of not being able to
do it, of other people beingbetter than us, of looking embarrassed when
things don't go to plan. Butif we never take out and take a
risk, take a step. Yeah, it might no go to it might
(12:01):
not go to plan, but ifyou don't take the step, it's definitely
not going to go to plan.That's really he who makes no mistakes makes
nothing at all really good. SoBen, obviously you don't see. I
mean, things that happen haven't alwaysbeen a failure. But when has there
been a moment in your life whenpeople might say it was a failure,
(12:24):
Well, what did you learn fromit and how did it how did it
change you to make you who youare today? So what's what's the biggest
failure that people would say was afailure that at that time you felt was
a failure, What did you learnfrom it? And how did that affect
who you are today? Again,these are these are great, great questions,
(12:46):
and it's hard to endpoint one thing. So certainly, since I've been
running my business for the past tenyears, there have been a long list
of things that you could one coulddefine as a as a failure. Right.
There've been new products that I've launchedthat just kind of have been a
flop. There's new revenue streams I'vetried to open up where I've spent more
(13:11):
money trying to build this thing thanI've earned in revenue. Those honestly don't
see as failures because actually I justlearned the lessons and I've learned that hey
that doesn't work, let's not trythat again, or this bit worked,
this bit didn't. When we doit again, we need we need to
tweak that. So so that's allall just learning. What would I say
(13:33):
has been been the biggest failure andit doesn't. It can it can be
business, or it can be relationally. Just yeah, I know it's a
quite a hard question to answer ona podcast with loads of people, but
yeah, if you feel you dofeel comfortable sharing, no, I absolutely
do. I'm just trying to thinkof something really valuable to share, so
(13:56):
one that springs to mind and thisspeaks more to mindset I have around failings
rather than failures. So it's atime when I was again in the military.
It was my second posting, soleft Sanders, deployed to Iraq,
and it's my third year after Sanders. So I was sent to an army
(14:18):
training regiment that trained what were calledjunior entry recruits. So people joined the
army around sixteen sixteen and a halfand did a slightly longer initial training.
And around about that time there wasa big focus in the military around changing
some of the culture around initial trainingbecause they're trying to get rid of this
culture of sort of bullying, thescreaming and shouts in sergeant majors and corporal
(14:43):
So there was a lot around whatyou could and couldn't do. Now,
some of the let's call them oldand bold soldiers at the time thought that
the Army was getting saved, thatthat's how they were treated, so that's
what should still be done. AndI was the second in command of a
training company and at that point,so probably twenty to thirty soldier instructors and
(15:07):
probably at the busiest, like onehundred and twenty young recruits. So it's
my job to sort of oversee allof the kind of training plan, the
big exercises and that sort of stuff. And the camp was on a big
airfield. There's one day, allthe different platoons were out on this airfield
doing some training. I'd go alongkind of observe see what was going on.
(15:28):
The situation was made more complicated thatwhilst we were on the same level,
there was a friend and peer ofmine who was one of the patoon
commanders, so in the military chainin command at the time, he was
more junior to me. And Iremember walking around this corner. There's sort
of a big berm of earth.So until I walked around this corner,
(15:48):
I couldn't really see anything. AndI walked around this corner. I didn't
even fully walk around the corner,but I just looked out in front of
me, and it was as ifsomeone had put on a like a sketch
or a demonstration where there was actingout everything that should not be done anymore
in initial training, Like it wasall going on, like people being told
(16:11):
to do like a ridiculous amount ofpress ups, people sprinting up and downhills
to the black bow of a whistlefor punishments, just loads of loads of
other stuff, Like none of itwas like anything particularly bad, but it
was all against the current current standardsof the military. And it still is.
(16:33):
Quite A young captain, like,you've got this weird relationship where you
need to try and get on withthe soldiers that you command. They still
see you as quite young and inexperienced. So I've got that going on.
I've got do I call out agood friend of mine and embarrass him in
front of everybody else? Do Ilike protect the soldiers? And I turned
(16:56):
around? And it's still really reallynot all the time. But I still
reflect on that a lot, andI think, so, what that was
a failing actually at that moment intime, that was a failing of leadership.
And I should have absolutely done theright thing or found a way to
(17:17):
speak to all of those instructors aboutthe right thing to do. And maybe
there was a way to do itwhere I could have addressed it and still
protected or maintained their sort of credibilityin front of those recruits. But if
I could have more time again andgo we can change that. I would
have acted instead of turning the otherway, because that's fundamental to leadership,
(17:37):
really like integrity, making the hardright decisions rather than the easy wrong ones.
But in that moment, I tookthe easy wrong one. But then,
like to your point earlier, that'sthat's part of life. We all
we all make mistakes. Like Idon't think there's a leader out there who's
got every cool right. They probablyasked some leaders out there, but there's
(17:59):
very few who can say I gotevery call right and in every moment I
did absolutely the right thing, butI never did Oh good, well,
all, Ben, thank you somuch for showing that. I mean,
such a hard thing when you've gotpeople you're leading and also someone who's leading
you, and you're stuck in themiddle, and you know that doing the
right thing is going to cost yousomething. So what So from that failure?
(18:23):
What? What? What did youlearn from it? And how did
it? How did it kind ofshape who you are today? So I'm
the type of person who really reflectsand sort of ruminates a lot on things.
In terms of sort of neuro linguisticprogramming and thinking patterns. I'm what's
(18:45):
very much called internally referenced. SoI'm great slash bad given my giving myself
feedback. So I could have beenfound out in that situation and inverting commas
and been pinased be giving some reallyharsh feedback. It wouldn't have made any
difference because I'd already done that myself, and I was already beating myself up
(19:08):
about the fact that that I didn'tdidn't act and actually that that feeling afterwards,
because for a few weeks I wasthinking about it all the time.
I made them wrong call I shouldhave acted in the moment, and I
came away thinking I just never wantto have that feeling again. So it
gave me, I guess, thecarriage is probably the wrong word, almost
(19:33):
the self accountability to make sure Imade right decisions going forwards. I didn't
want that feeling of sort of lookingin the mirror and and I didn't act
in the right way. I wasn'tthe leader that I know I could have
been should have been. So itkind of sits SIT's quite heavy with you,
and it's a lesson that gets burnedinto the into your memory. I
(19:56):
think, yeah, I think it'sreally interesting. I've always thought that,
like the gap in our lives fromwho we say we are and who we
show we are, and who wesay we are, who who we show
we are and who we actually are. The greater that divide is that space
(20:18):
just breeds like it's a vacuum offeeling like not good enough, are worthy,
like a fraud because we're we're basicallypretending to be somebody we're not.
And the closer we can get thosetwo lines together, who we say we
are matched up with our actions,the closer that is, the closer what
(20:41):
you said earlier is like like we'reliving a life of integrity. And the
closer that those two lines are together, the more the more, the more
joy we feel, the more themore passionate we are, the more bold
we are, the more confident weare, because we know that there's nothing
in our lives that is different thanwho we say we are. We know
(21:02):
that we're living the lives we wantto live, and we're showing people we
live, and that actually is whatbreeds purpose and joy and contentment. But
whenever we make decisions that are misalignedwith who we long to be and who
we know we are, that justthat rips us apart from the inside.
Even if no one knows, weknow, and us knowing is almost even
(21:23):
worse. So I guess from thatfailure like like yeah, like, I
mean, so many of us we'vemade mistakes that like that, moral decisions
that weren't right, that just destroysyour heart and you just think, I
never want to feel this again,like and and yeah, And it's so
good because then next time we're facedwith that situation, we just think,
I'm not doing that again. Becauseyou want, you want to live a
(21:45):
life of integrity. So that's why, that's why actually failing is so powerful
because I spend months at santast andthey're talk and talk to us no end
about the importance of integrity and doingthe right thing. And I didn't just
sit and not along. I believedit. I fundamentally believed it. Knew
that was key to being a greatleader. But did I really kind of
(22:11):
act on it, really fully internalizethat message until I've made that mistake.
No, So like some of ourgreatest, most powerful lessons come from those
times when we when we get itwrong. So like it's failure. Failings
aren't something to be avoided, there'ssomething to be embraced and learn. Yeah,
(22:33):
really good then, thank you somuch. And I've and I've heard
it said, failure isn't an option. Failure is a necessity. You know.
Sometimes people say failure isn't an optionhere, Yeah, you're right,
it's not an option. It's anabsolute necessity if we want to be leaders
who make a difference. So,Ben, thank you so much for your
time today, thank you for yourservice to our country and and thank you
(22:56):
for all that you represent. Thankthank you for showing so vlna today.
It's been a pleasure speaking with you, by pleasure to see Thanks for having
me have a wonderful day everyone onRunn's Leadership Podcast. Bye, thank you
so much for joining me today.I can't wait to see you next time.
Remember to leave a review, letme know what you think and if
(23:17):
you need help implementing anything we've discussed, or you just want to say hello,
feel free to email me at Fernandoat London's Leadership Podcast dot com.
Until next time, remember to liveand lead with love every day.
Whether you believe it or not,you are a leader in your everyday life.
Whether it's within your family, inyour work environment, or even online,
you can and will affect change inthose around you. Join me in
conversation with authors, professors and leaders, so together we can learn all things
regarding leadership and life. I amyour host, Fernando Carrillo, and welcome
(00:22):
to another episode of London's Leadership Podcast. Hello everybody, and welcome to London's
Leadership Podcast. It's been a whileand it's so good to be back together.
Today. I'm with Ben and we'regoing to learn a bit about failure.
I've just come back from time awayin America. I was at a
(00:42):
leadership conference and they spoke a loton the subject of failure and what we
can learn from it. And Iwas just so struck by how a recent
failure in my life had really affectedme. Like I just felt like I
wasn't a good leader, Like Iwasn't up to the task. I felt
like, oh, if I ifI was so passionate about this, if
(01:04):
I really believed I could do it, and I just failed. I felt
myself, I felt the people,the people on my team. I just
it like it really took. It'staking me about a year and a half
to recover from it and to beable to stand up again and even talk
about leadership, because I just feltlike such a fraud. But now that
(01:27):
I'm on the other side of it, I guess I've learned so much from
it and what to do, whatnot to do, the lessons I learned
from it, and and I reallywanted to learn from others and see how
other people have faced failures, howthey've overcome them, and how those failures
have shaped them. But Ben,you've got such a fascinating story, partly
(01:49):
from being at Sandhurst, why don'tyou tell our listeners a little bit about
yourself and what you're up to.Yeah, so thank you and thanks for
having me. And very briefly,probably from the age of about seven,
I've decided that I wanted to gointo the into the British Army, and
probably out of naivety, my mumblessed it said well, Ben, you
can only go in if you're goingas an officer, because I think she
(02:12):
thought that meant I'd be nice andsafe towards the back somewhere of the physical
metaphorical battleground, right But anyway,at sixteen, I managed to get a
place at the Army's sixth form College. I went from there onto the Army's
University, from there on to theraw Military Academy, Sandhurst, where I
did my training to become a leaderand officer in the military, and served
(02:36):
five years in the Army after that, leaving as a captain in late two
thousand and six, having deployed toenrapt twice. So that's the brief story
and sort of the military journey ifyou like. But yeah, failure is
an interesting, interesting question and topicto discuss for sure. And then before
(02:59):
we go into the topic of failure, I've been I've been reading loads of
books on Sandhurst and what was that? What was it like? What kind
of discipline does it instill in you? What? What? What? What's
the culture like? Because I've alwaysfound it fascinating Sandhurst and I read a
lot on the seals and the kindof people it forms. So tell us
(03:21):
a little bit about the culture ofSandhurst and how it really impacted you.
Well, the best way to describeit was how I heard it described.
I think when I was sixteen andsomeone who graduated from Sandhurst said, going
to Sandhurst is a bit like beingrepeatedly hit over the head with a hammer.
You're just glad when it stops,which in some ways is true,
(03:42):
especially if you've aspired to get thereand graduate for so long. You're just
desperate to get through it and you'redesperate to to not fail. Really,
And at the same time, lotsof people describe Sandhurst as the best leadership
training in the world. Right Idon't know if that's one hundred percent true,
(04:03):
because I've not experienced lots of theother leadership training in the world,
but it is. It is exceptionalin terms of the like the fundamental beliefs
it teaches you, and probably morethan anything something that's spoken about not that
commonly in terms of leadership, butI do see it gaining a little bit
(04:24):
of traction at the minute, especiallyactually in from the Center Farmy Leadership,
which is based as Sandurst. Thisidea of teamship really teaching you to be
be a team player, which nomatter how senior you are as a leader,
you still need to be a greatteam player as well. And probably
that's one of the strongest things thatI took from Sandhurst, as well as
(04:46):
been able to give up early andmake your bed and nine your shirts and
all that good stuff. Yeah whatwhat other so protably being a team player?
What are some of the other kindof fundamental beliefs that Sandhurst is steals
in you. Yeah, so thisis on leadership because I think, yeah,
so, both very overtly and almoston a underlying subconscious basis. It
(05:15):
really teaches you. It certainly taughtme the importance of relationships and connection as
almost one of the foundational elements ofleadership. So it's just drummed into us
again and again and again. Ifwe were going to potentially one day have
to ask soldiers to make the ultimatesacrifice, they would only do that if
(05:39):
they knew that we knew them andcared about them as individuals rather than just
a soldier or in the corporate world, like a number or a cost on
the profit and loss statement. Right, So it's fundamentally about like knowing your
people and the fact that you leadpeople. It's a bit of a cliche
(06:00):
statement. I forget who said it, might have been Drucker somebody like that,
that you lead people, you managethings like it's fundamentally true. Like
we're talking mimutary about leading leading people. Yeah, I think I read somewhere
that in Sandhurst one of the keysayings is served to lead. Is that
right? One of the key attributesthat they teach you is service and servant
(06:24):
leadership. So yeah, well,I've been reading loads and on Sandhurst,
and from I read one author PaulNelson, which I'm I'm planning on speaking
to him soon. And he wrotea book called stand Up Straight or Stand
Upright or something. It's on mybookshelf. Yeah, unbelievable book on Sandhurst.
(06:46):
So but Ben, tell us,what was it you see? You
went to Afghanistan? What was thatlike? Iraq? Iraq twice? Iraq?
Sorry, irraight? What was thatlike? Well, that's a big
question. I'm not really sure.How do you answer? What was iract
like? Sorry? So I went, I deployed twice. The first time
(07:06):
was in two thousand and three atthe start of the sort of the second
Golf conflict, ultimately the second thefirst time, I'm sorry, It's what
I've spent years training training to do. So there was Yes, there was
a degree of nervousness and anxiety anda little bit of bit of fear.
(07:31):
But actually, as a as aleader, you're almost in a doubly privileged
position because you've got so much tothink about in terms of making plans and
leading operations and looking after your yoursoldiers and all the other tasks and activities
that come with being a leader,that you don't really get that much time
(07:55):
to sit and worry about what's what'sgoing on. And actually, one of
my biggest reflections looking back, ifthere's something I would have done differently I
could go back and be that leaderat that time again, would be to
pay much more attention to how theprivate soldiers were feeling, who had a
lot more time on their hands andless planning and thinking to be doing.
(08:15):
Because some of the junior soldiers,because I had a couple of lads who
had just turned eighteen, they reallyjust had to worry about them, so
they had a lot of time tothink and worry. But ultimately, in
a weird way, it was agood experience, like I learned a lot
about myself and leadership, and Igot to test myself against what it was
(08:37):
that I wanted to do for somany years. Second time was very different.
Second time was getting up for twoyears later. It was the era
of roadside bombs IDs. We didn'tnecessarily know who we were fighting, whether
enemy and inverted commas were And bythat stage I decided I was leaving the
(08:58):
army halfway. By pre course ofthe way through that deployment, I came
home for ten days to get married, so arguably my heart wasn't quite in
it as much, and I knewI felt I had more more to lose,
so I was. I was slightlytorn and conflicted the second time around.
I really wanted to continue to serveand look after, support and protect
(09:20):
the soldiers I had the privilege tolead, but a big part of me
was making sure I got home safebecause I was looking forward to my new
life with my soon to be wife. So the second time was difficult.
M. Well, thank you somuch for your service to us. Spend
So failure, What does failure meanto you? So I found this fascinating.
(09:43):
When you mentioned were going to talkabout this, I did what I
often do, so I had togo back and looked at the dictionary definition
of failure. The Oxford definition saysa lack of success in doing or achieving
something M And that means we're thenforehave to define success right And this is
(10:05):
the way it starts to get reallyinteresting. So back to the military and
Santa's. When I was at Santa's, success was getting through it and not
failing either, not completely failing topass the course and not having to redo
another term in the military, likewe're very much. Certainly when I serve,
we had this view of success atalmost all costs, which makes sense,
(10:26):
right because in the military that's we'vegot a mission to commission to complete.
But yeah, so I think mymind set around failure up to my
probably mid thirties was like avoid failureat all costs. But I'm also addicted
to sort of learning and development andgrowth, so more now and now I
(10:52):
tend not ready to view much asa failure. And that's not meant to
sound particularly trite or are amazing,like, so long as I'm learning something
and growing and developing in some way, then if I really don't view as
a failure, because I forget againwho said it, Like, he who
makes no mistakes normally makes nothing atall. Right, And the biggest lessons
(11:18):
I've learned, most powerful lessons havecome from what we might term as a
failure. Really, I really lovethat he who makes no mistakes, makes
nothing at all absolutely brilliant. Sometimeswe can be so failure verse, so
we actually don't end up doing anything. So many of us have failed of
(11:39):
failing that we don't step out tofulfill our dreams. That many of us
have a faid of failures that wedon't step out to feel the call that
we have on our lives. We'rejust too afraid of not being able to
do it, of other people beingbetter than us, of looking embarrassed when
things don't go to plan. Butif we never take out and take a
risk, take a step. Yeah, it might no go to it might
(12:01):
not go to plan, but ifyou don't take the step, it's definitely
not going to go to plan.That's really he who makes no mistakes makes
nothing at all really good. SoBen, obviously you don't see. I
mean, things that happen haven't alwaysbeen a failure. But when has there
been a moment in your life whenpeople might say it was a failure,
(12:24):
Well, what did you learn fromit and how did it how did it
change you to make you who youare today? So what's what's the biggest
failure that people would say was afailure that at that time you felt was
a failure, What did you learnfrom it? And how did that affect
who you are today? Again,these are these are great, great questions,
(12:46):
and it's hard to endpoint one thing. So certainly, since I've been
running my business for the past tenyears, there have been a long list
of things that you could one coulddefine as a as a failure. Right.
There've been new products that I've launchedthat just kind of have been a
flop. There's new revenue streams I'vetried to open up where I've spent more
(13:11):
money trying to build this thing thanI've earned in revenue. Those honestly don't
see as failures because actually I justlearned the lessons and I've learned that hey
that doesn't work, let's not trythat again, or this bit worked,
this bit didn't. When we doit again, we need we need to
tweak that. So so that's allall just learning. What would I say
(13:33):
has been been the biggest failure andit doesn't. It can it can be
business, or it can be relationally. Just yeah, I know it's a
quite a hard question to answer ona podcast with loads of people, but
yeah, if you feel you dofeel comfortable sharing, no, I absolutely
do. I'm just trying to thinkof something really valuable to share, so
(13:56):
one that springs to mind and thisspeaks more to mindset I have around failings
rather than failures. So it's atime when I was again in the military.
It was my second posting, soleft Sanders, deployed to Iraq,
and it's my third year after Sanders. So I was sent to an army
(14:18):
training regiment that trained what were calledjunior entry recruits. So people joined the
army around sixteen sixteen and a halfand did a slightly longer initial training.
And around about that time there wasa big focus in the military around changing
some of the culture around initial trainingbecause they're trying to get rid of this
culture of sort of bullying, thescreaming and shouts in sergeant majors and corporal
(14:43):
So there was a lot around whatyou could and couldn't do. Now,
some of the let's call them oldand bold soldiers at the time thought that
the Army was getting saved, thatthat's how they were treated, so that's
what should still be done. AndI was the second in command of a
training company and at that point,so probably twenty to thirty soldier instructors and
(15:07):
probably at the busiest, like onehundred and twenty young recruits. So it's
my job to sort of oversee allof the kind of training plan, the
big exercises and that sort of stuff. And the camp was on a big
airfield. There's one day, allthe different platoons were out on this airfield
doing some training. I'd go alongkind of observe see what was going on.
(15:28):
The situation was made more complicated thatwhilst we were on the same level,
there was a friend and peer ofmine who was one of the patoon
commanders, so in the military chainin command at the time, he was
more junior to me. And Iremember walking around this corner. There's sort
of a big berm of earth.So until I walked around this corner,
(15:48):
I couldn't really see anything. AndI walked around this corner. I didn't
even fully walk around the corner,but I just looked out in front of
me, and it was as ifsomeone had put on a like a sketch
or a demonstration where there was actingout everything that should not be done anymore
in initial training, Like it wasall going on, like people being told
(16:11):
to do like a ridiculous amount ofpress ups, people sprinting up and downhills
to the black bow of a whistlefor punishments, just loads of loads of
other stuff, Like none of itwas like anything particularly bad, but it
was all against the current current standardsof the military. And it still is.
(16:33):
Quite A young captain, like,you've got this weird relationship where you
need to try and get on withthe soldiers that you command. They still
see you as quite young and inexperienced. So I've got that going on.
I've got do I call out agood friend of mine and embarrass him in
front of everybody else? Do Ilike protect the soldiers? And I turned
(16:56):
around? And it's still really reallynot all the time. But I still
reflect on that a lot, andI think, so, what that was
a failing actually at that moment intime, that was a failing of leadership.
And I should have absolutely done theright thing or found a way to
(17:17):
speak to all of those instructors aboutthe right thing to do. And maybe
there was a way to do itwhere I could have addressed it and still
protected or maintained their sort of credibilityin front of those recruits. But if
I could have more time again andgo we can change that. I would
have acted instead of turning the otherway, because that's fundamental to leadership,
(17:37):
really like integrity, making the hardright decisions rather than the easy wrong ones.
But in that moment, I tookthe easy wrong one. But then,
like to your point earlier, that'sthat's part of life. We all
we all make mistakes. Like Idon't think there's a leader out there who's
got every cool right. They probablyasked some leaders out there, but there's
(17:59):
very few who can say I gotevery call right and in every moment I
did absolutely the right thing, butI never did Oh good, well,
all, Ben, thank you somuch for showing that. I mean,
such a hard thing when you've gotpeople you're leading and also someone who's leading
you, and you're stuck in themiddle, and you know that doing the
right thing is going to cost yousomething. So what So from that failure?
(18:23):
What? What? What did youlearn from it? And how did
it? How did it kind ofshape who you are today? So I'm
the type of person who really reflectsand sort of ruminates a lot on things.
In terms of sort of neuro linguisticprogramming and thinking patterns. I'm what's
(18:45):
very much called internally referenced. SoI'm great slash bad given my giving myself
feedback. So I could have beenfound out in that situation and inverting commas
and been pinased be giving some reallyharsh feedback. It wouldn't have made any
difference because I'd already done that myself, and I was already beating myself up
(19:08):
about the fact that that I didn'tdidn't act and actually that that feeling afterwards,
because for a few weeks I wasthinking about it all the time.
I made them wrong call I shouldhave acted in the moment, and I
came away thinking I just never wantto have that feeling again. So it
gave me, I guess, thecarriage is probably the wrong word, almost
(19:33):
the self accountability to make sure Imade right decisions going forwards. I didn't
want that feeling of sort of lookingin the mirror and and I didn't act
in the right way. I wasn'tthe leader that I know I could have
been should have been. So itkind of sits SIT's quite heavy with you,
and it's a lesson that gets burnedinto the into your memory. I
(19:56):
think, yeah, I think it'sreally interesting. I've always thought that,
like the gap in our lives fromwho we say we are and who we
show we are, and who wesay we are, who who we show
we are and who we actually are. The greater that divide is that space
(20:18):
just breeds like it's a vacuum offeeling like not good enough, are worthy,
like a fraud because we're we're basicallypretending to be somebody we're not.
And the closer we can get thosetwo lines together, who we say we
are matched up with our actions,the closer that is, the closer what
(20:41):
you said earlier is like like we'reliving a life of integrity. And the
closer that those two lines are together, the more the more, the more
joy we feel, the more themore passionate we are, the more bold
we are, the more confident weare, because we know that there's nothing
in our lives that is different thanwho we say we are. We know
(21:02):
that we're living the lives we wantto live, and we're showing people we
live, and that actually is whatbreeds purpose and joy and contentment. But
whenever we make decisions that are misalignedwith who we long to be and who
we know we are, that justthat rips us apart from the inside.
Even if no one knows, weknow, and us knowing is almost even
(21:23):
worse. So I guess from thatfailure like like yeah, like, I
mean, so many of us we'vemade mistakes that like that, moral decisions
that weren't right, that just destroysyour heart and you just think, I
never want to feel this again,like and and yeah, And it's so
good because then next time we're facedwith that situation, we just think,
I'm not doing that again. Becauseyou want, you want to live a
(21:45):
life of integrity. So that's why, that's why actually failing is so powerful
because I spend months at santast andthey're talk and talk to us no end
about the importance of integrity and doingthe right thing. And I didn't just
sit and not along. I believedit. I fundamentally believed it. Knew
that was key to being a greatleader. But did I really kind of
(22:11):
act on it, really fully internalizethat message until I've made that mistake.
No, So like some of ourgreatest, most powerful lessons come from those
times when we when we get itwrong. So like it's failure. Failings
aren't something to be avoided, there'ssomething to be embraced and learn. Yeah,
(22:33):
really good then, thank you somuch. And I've and I've heard
it said, failure isn't an option. Failure is a necessity. You know.
Sometimes people say failure isn't an optionhere, Yeah, you're right,
it's not an option. It's anabsolute necessity if we want to be leaders
who make a difference. So,Ben, thank you so much for your
time today, thank you for yourservice to our country and and thank you
(22:56):
for all that you represent. Thankthank you for showing so vlna today.
It's been a pleasure speaking with you, by pleasure to see Thanks for having
me have a wonderful day everyone onRunn's Leadership Podcast. Bye, thank you
so much for joining me today.I can't wait to see you next time.
Remember to leave a review, letme know what you think and if
(23:17):
you need help implementing anything we've discussed, or you just want to say hello,
feel free to email me at Fernandoat London's Leadership Podcast dot com.
Until next time, remember to liveand lead with love every day.
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