October 16, 2023 • 24 mins
Major General Paul Nanson is a British Army Officer who serves as Commandant of the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and General Officer Commanding Recruiting and Initial Training Command. During his thirty year career in the British Army, he has served in the Troubles, the Gulf War, the Bosnian War, the Iraq war, and the war in Afghanistan, which saw him appointed a Commander of the Order of the British Empire for distinguished services.
In his tenure at Sandhurst he has established the Centre for Army Leadership, the world's premier centre for army leadership.
In his tenure at Sandhurst he has established the Centre for Army Leadership, the world's premier centre for army leadership.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Whether you believe it or not,you are a leader in your everyday life.
Whether it's within your family, inyour work environment, or even online,
you can and will affect change inthose around you. Join me in
conversation with authors, professors and leaders, so together we can learn all things
regarding leadership and life. I amyour host, Fernando Carrillo, and welcome
(00:22):
to another episode of London's Leadership Podcast. Hello everybody, and welcome back to
London's Leadership Podcast. Today I'm speakingto the retired Major General Paul Nansen,
who wrote a book called Stand UpStraight, Ten Lessons that he learned from
(00:44):
Sandhurst. And today we're going tobe looking at at that book and Paul,
but before we go into that,why don't you let our listeners know
a little bit about yourself and aboutSandhurst. Well, Fernando, thank you
very much for having me on yourpodcast. It's a huge pleasure to join
you today. Yeah. So Ispent thirty five years in the Army.
(01:07):
I joined I joined from school andwas fortunate enough to pass the selection to
get to Sandhurst, which is whereI joined as an officer. And Sandhurst
is where where the British Army trainit's it's its officers. I went there
back in nineteen eighty six, onehundred years ago, in nineteen eighty six,
and I was trained there and wentoff went off into my to my
(01:30):
regiment, and spent the next thirtyfour years or so, you know,
being led, being led by andleading some amazing people and some and some
not so amazing people, but learning, learning a lot of leadership lessons as
I went in some demanding environments.And then towards the end of my career,
I was very very lucky to goback to Sanders as the commandant,
as the as the head as itwere, to you know, to sort
(01:53):
of finish where I started, Isuppose, and and help train the next
generation of army leader. And that'sreally what Santurst does it. It's it
It trains the next generation of armyleader. And as you said, as
you quite rightly said, towards theend of my time, we decided to
write a book Stand up Straight.And the reason we wrote the book was
(02:15):
was really to dispel a couple ofmyths about Sandhurst, about the place and
the two myths where firstly who goesthere? And the myth was that,
you know, in order to goto Sanders, you had to have been
born with a silver spoon in yourmouth. You had to have you know,
come from the right family, beto the right school, be to
the right university. That it wasall about privilege, and that's just not
(02:36):
true. It's about potential. SoSandhurst is about finding those those young young
men and women who have the potentialto be leaders and then developing that leadership
over over an arduous course which iswhich is a year long before they then
go off into the army to toto lead their to lead their soldiers.
(02:58):
So it's about it's about potential,not privilege. That was the first myth,
and the second myth was you know, what do we do there?
How do we how do we howdo we take these people and turn them
into leaders in a relatively short spaceof time. And of course, you
know, we've all we've we inthe army understand what goes on there,
but not many other people do.So, Yeah, the lessons that you
get out of the book are someof the basic basic ways that we develop
(03:23):
leaders and it's you know, hopefullyit's a lot of it is practical common
sense in terms of setting them forsuccess. And we thought that would translate
well into into the civilian world aswell. So that's why we wrote the
book. Yeah, well, thankyou so much, and I absolutely love
the book. I always find itso helpful when when there's just really ten
(03:43):
lessons, super practical, insightful.The stories you told from Sandhurst and from
the army were brilliant. So maybe, just for our listeners today, could
you give us like your three favoritelessons if you can. I know they're
probably all your favorite, but ifyou could just choose three that, uh
the most significant in your eyes?Yeah, I mean that the first one
(04:08):
is the one I get asked aboutmost, as I suppose, is the
sort of what we call it theSantas Way, and it's it's the you
know, when we when when youwhen you go to Santurst, you know,
particularly for the first five weeks ofyour time there, it's about it's
about creating habits. It's about habitfor me, and it's things like we
get you to fold your clothes ina certain way, we get you to
(04:32):
tidy your room in a certain way, make your bed in a certain way,
polish your boots in a certain way. And you know, people laugh
when we talk about folding socks andthings like that. But there there is
a there is a there is amethod in our madness and the the the
method is about you know, ifyou if you can do it yourself,
you can get into a routine wherelooking after yourself become second nature. It's
(04:57):
a habit. You looking after youryour weapon system, looking after your personal
hygiene, looking after your your ownpersonal development fitness. It means that you
don't have to think about that.Then you can focus on your people.
That you can focus on making surethat they're looked after. That you know
you have that pride, that selfconfidence in your own ability because you've got
(05:20):
this inbuilt sense of purpose and discipline. That means you can focus all your
attention on your people. So that'sthe first thing. That's the standards way
I suppose is the first lesson.The second one I pull out is what
we called tighten your chin strap andtighten your string strap. We call the
(05:40):
chapter that. But in the army, it's a saying that when things get
really difficult, when everything's going onaround you, you know your helmet is
a sense of protection. Tightening yourchin strap means you know it's going to
get really bad. So I needto buckle down, tighten that because things
are going to go wrong. Andthe whole moral of the of the lesson
is about, you know, resilience, you know, bounce back ability,
(06:04):
that ability to whatever happens to youis pick yourself up, dust yourself down,
and be able to get back intothe fight because you know your people
are going to be relying on you. And at Sandhurst, we we do
we do talk about the threshold offailure. We do talk about and we
practice the fact that we we believepeople learn best when they're in that at
(06:29):
that threshold. You know, whenthey are pushed to the level where they
are they do fail, and aslong as they learn from it and bounce
back stronger, then that's okay becausethat's the way you learn. And so
we do we do try very hardto get that ethos, that culture of
that growth mindset, that learning culturewhere it's okay, you know, long
(06:53):
push yourself as as much as youcan, and if you make a mistake
or you or you fail, that'sokay, as long as you learn.
We don't way to fail to youoften because that shows something wrong. But
as long as you have that culturewhere you learn by doing and get after
it. Then then that's okay.So that's the second one. The last
one are really let me just letme just do on these too quickly,
(07:15):
because I found them very very helpfulwhen I was looking for the first of
all, the Sandhurst Way, isit six a m That that you you're
up for inspection? Is it sixra Valley? So that's when they get
up. They'll probably get up beforethat, but six am is the first,
the first parade where they're expected toto to you know, to to
(07:35):
come outside their rims and stand onthe line. And sometimes it's in the
national anthem or whatever it may be. There'll be something, there'll be something
to get them going. And thenand then and then is it right that
the beds inspected, that their shoesare inspected, that the way their socks
you wrote, I think you describedit as like, oh, smiling towards
(07:55):
me, the way they laid outthe toilet trees have to be a certain
distance away from each other. Andif they're not by six a m.
When when the inspection comes and Iand those are small like details that people
think, ah, oh is itreally that important? But it's it's just
(08:18):
I really liked how you put it, I think you said it was like,
it's those small details that build thebigger ones. Would you just talk
a little bit on that, onon why the small details matter, because
I often find sometimes in teams peopleare like, Oh, they'll worry about
the big thing when the big thingcomes, but right now when they're when
they have maybe small things to workwith, they they're not really too fast
(08:41):
about how they how they execute thesmall thing because they're like, Oh,
it doesn't really matter, I'll justwork on the big thing. But I
always think if you can't do thesmall thing well, you're never going to
be able to do the big thing. Well. How you do every how
you do, how you do somethings is how you do everything. But
would you be able to speak onthat why those details matter, why those
small disciplines matter. Yeah, Imean I think I think if I think
(09:05):
you said, you said it perfectlywell yourself. I think the attention to
detail is really poor. If youget the small things right, the big
things will follow. I think youknow, getting the basics right. Doing
the basics well, you talk,you talk to any sports, professional sports
team, high performance sports team,They'll say, you know, one of
the one of the ways that theyhave got to where they are is by
doing the basics really really well andhaving that attention to detail. And only
(09:28):
then can you build on that andand really get that get that high performance.
And I think, you know,forming these habits, getting these attentions,
we only do it the first fiveweeks. So the first five weeks
is where we do this, youknow, rigorous attention to detail, rigorous
attention to be inspected, to makesure you create these habits that then continue
(09:50):
throughout your career. And you know, if you ask me, now,
do I still form my socks?The answer is no, obviously, But
but do I do I still turnup on time? I I You know,
we have a thing called Santa's time, which is you've got to be
there five minutes before you're supposed tobe there. Why is that important?
When it goes back to the detail. You know, we talk about if
you cannot be late in a militaryoperation, because a military operation is about
(10:16):
coordination of lots of different effects.So you know, going into going into
an attack, going into an assault, you're relying on air, You're a
lying on artillery, you're a lyingon lots of other things that all have
to be coordinated at a point intime. If you are the organization that
is late, the whole operation willfail. So you you just cannot be
(10:37):
late. And therefore, you know, you just that's just that's just a
rule. But it's a rule thatthere's a reason behind it, and that's
because it's it's it's it's a matterof real military importance, really good.
And then and then on tightening yourtinstrap, just a little thought on me
is I want to get onto thethird one. But how do you know
(10:58):
where one's thresholders? Because I've heardit said as well, like growth comes
at the point of resistance, justhow you said it, Like when somebody
gets to that that that real push, that real point of like if I
go any further, it's going tobe too hard, but any less and
it's too easy. How how canyou, because I guess that point is
different for everyone, How are youable to to push people to that point
(11:24):
so that they so that they're ableto grow? I think it relies on
on quality instructors who know who knowtheir people well and know when to push
and when they've had enough. Andthat's that's both physically. I mean,
obviously there's a lot of physical developmentat Santist. You know, we turn
you know, being a being asoldier, particularly today is is it's always
(11:46):
been the same, but you haveto be very physically robust. They're almost
we're almost developing professional athletes, andso pushing people physically is important, but
also mentally, you know, weyou know, we expect people to be
operating in crisis situations. We're expectingpeople to make life and death decisions in
(12:07):
very difficult circumstances when they probably havenot got enough information. They just got
to go with their guts. Andtherefore we work on the fact that you
can push you push people to theedge in training and see where they fail.
Because they can't fail in the reallife. They can't fail in operations.
They've got to do the best theypossibly can. So long winded answer
(12:30):
your question, I think it's downto down to really quality and structures,
which we do have at Santists.Who know, who know how far they
can push, But it is aboutpushing everybody to that to that threshold at
some stage in the course, otherwisethey won't learn what crisis really is.
Brilliant, all right, what's yourthird what's your third favorite lesson from the
ten lessons, Well, I'm goingto finish with the last lesson, which
(12:56):
is is comes from the motto ofthe academy, which is served to lead.
And we talk about you know,it's been about the power of example,
and you know, serve to leadthe motto, I suppose it's about
having that ability to inspire people twofollow you into probably situations where you know
(13:26):
it's obviously going to be pretty prettypretty difficult and of life threatening. You
know what does that mean? Well, serve to lead really is about the
fact that it's not it's not enoughjust to have the rank. It's not
enough just to be the officer togive the orders. You've got to create
that relationship with your people where theygenuinely trust you and want to follow you
(13:50):
because because they like you and respectyou as a as a person above above
everything else. And so how doyou do that where it's about having that
having that contract of mutual with yourpeople. And that last that last lesson
is about you know, the powerof example, about you know, walking,
the walking, walking, the walklot, just talking about it,
(14:11):
you know, all those things thatif you're going to be a genuinely good,
powerful leader, you've got to you'vegot to get out there and and
and really, you know, reallylead by example. Yeah, I think
for some of the words you usewere integrity, how integrity is so important
to to the leader And and Ithink he gave the example of I can't
(14:33):
remember what the Nate general's name was, but but he always knew the key
the details of each of the peopleon his teams, like either their either
like what they're going through or liketheir family members situations. But it wasn't
because it was him, it washis driver. Yeah, and that that
that really had a good memory.But but something like that that you're able
to to really in my world woulduse the term like smell like the sheep,
(14:58):
like be amongst the pe people knowwho they are, learn to love
them and not and actually love themthat you not just pretending you do,
but like genuinely like knowing that myposition as the leader is to make you
better, like my whole role isto is to help you make a difference
in the world, fulfill all thepurposes that have been placed on your heart
(15:22):
and generally mean that and that meansbeing alongside them and people notice when you
when you have that, and theynotice when you don't and you can't,
and I just feel like it's sotrue that you just can't get away with
it for long. Like if youdon't serve to lead, that positional leadership
only lasts a certain time because peopledo get fed up just doing what they're
(15:45):
told. Yeah, I think itthat the positional leadership, you know,
that comes with authority, as yousay, it does work. It does
work for a time and people,you know, particularly in the civilian world.
I suppose if you pay people enough, they'll they'll they'll, they'll,
they'll, they'll do what they haveto do. But will they go that
extra mile for you? Probably not. I think unless you have got that
(16:08):
that relationship with them that means thatthey will go above and beyond. That's
that's where real serve to lead leadershipcomes in, which is a space that
we in the military are often oftenput into. So I suppose you would
you know that That's that's why wewe we talk about an awful lot because
you know, when when someone's shootingat you, you know, no amount
(16:33):
of money is going to make noamount of money is going to make them,
you know, do do what theywhat they need to do. It's
about something something bigger than that.It's about and it's not just about leading.
But it's not just about leadership.It's about belonging to a team.
It's about that sense of sense ofcamaraderie, it's about trusting your mates.
But a lot of it is about, you know, trusting and believing in
the person who's leading you. Reallygood, all right, Paul, Well,
(16:56):
thank you so much for showing thosethree points. Now, I just
have two questions because one of thethings I'm trying, I'm trying to learn
about a lot recently is failure andhow how critical it is the success for
the success of a leader, forthe growth of a person. So I
wanted to ask you, firstly,what does failure mean to you? What
does it look like to you?And then after that, I want to
(17:18):
ask you what's been the biggest failurein your life? But how has it
shaped you to become who you aretoday? So first of all, like,
what does failure mean to you?What does failure mean to you?
But I suppose it goes back towhat we what we were talking about in
the book. I mean, everybodyat some stage will fail. I mean,
it's it's a it's a natural.You know. I sometimes think that
(17:40):
one of the issues around today,particularly with with some of our youngsters,
there is there almost tried tried toprotect them from failure and try not not
to let them fail. You know, there's it's not, it's not sometimes
it's not. It's not PC tolet people fail. And it will come
second. You know, everyone's goingto win all the time. And unless
unless you do suffer that setbacks inlife, you know you're not You're not
(18:03):
going to You're not going to grow. You could argue, you know you're
not gonna you're not going to developthe character you tough, tough in the
character that means you, you know, you bounce back and get after things.
So I think failure is a failureis almost almost a requirement as a
constant. It's out there. Interms of my failure, I mean,
I've had many many failures at variousat various various levels. I think I
(18:27):
think the biggest and I know you'regoing to ask me this, I've been
thinking about it. I mean,I you know, I've failed tests,
I failed exams, I've failed youknow. But but I suppose in terms
of my professional life, the biggestfailures I've had is when when you know
I've I've I've lost I've lost peoplein my in my command. You know,
(18:48):
soldiers have have died because of ofthings that I've that I've done or
haven't done. And if I'm honestwith you, you know you in a
in a difficult situation, in ain a demanding situation, you know you've
got to be able to look yourselfin the mirror and say that you know,
I made the best possible decision Icould based on the on the information
(19:12):
I had, And and as longas you can look yourself in the eye
and say you did your best,then then that's that's that's good enough for
me. Where I have really struggledand he's asked me what the biggest biggest
failures is, where you know,maybe a culture in my organization for which
I've responsible has led to somebody doingsomething that that you know, you just
(19:38):
feel, you feel a sense ofa real sense of failure, that you
failed as a leader. I'll giveyou. I'll give you an example.
So we we came back from fromoperations in the Middle East, and we've
had a we've had a reasonably successful, successful tour and we came back and
we were based in Germany, andyou know, we we we had some
(20:00):
time to sort ourselves out. Butanyway, some some some some guys went
out for for for drinks and theyhad a few drinks and they had far
too much to drink. And oneone soldier was in a bad way.
So they put him in a taxiand sent him back to two barracks.
(20:22):
On the way back, that thetaxi driver trapped him out of the taxi
taxi because he was obviously not verywell, chopped him out on the on
the motorway and soldiers know where hewas, tried to get across the motorway,
got got hit by a car andkilled. And you know, there's
so many, so many things aboutthat that that really that really hurt,
and the mid the main ones thatwe had a culture where, you know,
(20:45):
we that it was okay to forthem to just sort of say it's
let then go home on his own. They went, they went looking after
him, you know, the waythat we've been looking after one another for
the previous you know, six months, and that that sort of that sort
of looks that that was a senseof failure for us all collectively. That
would allowed that to happen, butparticularly for me, because I've felt,
(21:08):
you know, well, what sortof culture is that that we can you
know, people there are people dothat, and I've I've had others where
the sadly soldiers have taken their ownlives, you know, and again you
think, how how could they notreach out for help? How could they
not feel that they could, youknow, put the hand up and ask
for help? Why? Why isthis culture so again long winded answer to
(21:32):
your question, But I do thinkas a leader, you do take it
very personally when things like that happen, and you do do do tutors of
failure. How have I dealt withit? You know, I've I've struggled
sometimes with with with my with mymental well being, still do sometimes,
but I think I've I'm big enoughto realize when I need to, when
(21:55):
I need some help, and I'velearned a long time ago that it's okay
to not be okay. And youknow, I do use tools. I
use behavioral therapies, comfort to favortherapies, to realthink things, to try
and reorder my thoughts, to workout how I can change negative thoughts into
(22:15):
positive behaviors and all that's all thatsort of stuff that's out there, and
I'll say to all your listeners,oh, just do it. I mean,
we all fail, we all struggle. We wouldn't be we wouldn't be
human if we didn't. Uh.And some of the most courageous people I've
ever served with have been the oneswho can put the hands up and say
I need a bit of help.Mm hmm. Wow. Well, Paul,
(22:41):
thank you so much for for yourhonesty and your vulnerability in that.
And I just want to get tosay again thank you so much for your
service to our country over all theseyears. Yeah, for everyone listening,
Like, failure, it's going tohappen to all of us. It's what
we do in the mid to that. And it's okay to reach out for
(23:02):
help and to not be okay inthe midst of it, Like we're not
made to do this alone. Nomatter how what your failure looks like in
the midst of it, don't feellike, oh you're you're an island that
you have to deal with it onyour own. Seek out for help even
after it. Really good, reallygood advice. Paul. Thank you so
much again for your book and forthe ten lessons and for the three lessons
(23:25):
that we looked today, the SandhurstWay, tighten your tinstrap and surf to
lead. Thank you for your bookStand Up Straight. I would encourage everyone
to get that book. And thankyou so much Paul for your time today.
Absolute pleasure. Thank you very muchfor having me on. Really enjoyed
it all right, See you nexttime. Everybody on London's Leadership Podcast.
Thank you so much for joining metoday. I can't wait to see you
(23:48):
next time. Remember to leave areview, let me know what you think
and if you need help implementing anythingwe've discussed, or you just want to
say hello, feel free to emailme at Fernando at London's Leadership Podcast dot
com. Until next time, rememberto live and lead with love every day.
Whether you believe it or not,you are a leader in your everyday life.
Whether it's within your family, inyour work environment, or even online,
you can and will affect change inthose around you. Join me in
conversation with authors, professors and leaders, so together we can learn all things
regarding leadership and life. I amyour host, Fernando Carrillo, and welcome
(00:22):
to another episode of London's Leadership Podcast. Hello everybody, and welcome back to
London's Leadership Podcast. Today I'm speakingto the retired Major General Paul Nansen,
who wrote a book called Stand UpStraight, Ten Lessons that he learned from
(00:44):
Sandhurst. And today we're going tobe looking at at that book and Paul,
but before we go into that,why don't you let our listeners know
a little bit about yourself and aboutSandhurst. Well, Fernando, thank you
very much for having me on yourpodcast. It's a huge pleasure to join
you today. Yeah. So Ispent thirty five years in the Army.
(01:07):
I joined I joined from school andwas fortunate enough to pass the selection to
get to Sandhurst, which is whereI joined as an officer. And Sandhurst
is where where the British Army trainit's it's its officers. I went there
back in nineteen eighty six, onehundred years ago, in nineteen eighty six,
and I was trained there and wentoff went off into my to my
(01:30):
regiment, and spent the next thirtyfour years or so, you know,
being led, being led by andleading some amazing people and some and some
not so amazing people, but learning, learning a lot of leadership lessons as
I went in some demanding environments.And then towards the end of my career,
I was very very lucky to goback to Sanders as the commandant,
as the as the head as itwere, to you know, to sort
(01:53):
of finish where I started, Isuppose, and and help train the next
generation of army leader. And that'sreally what Santurst does it. It's it
It trains the next generation of armyleader. And as you said, as
you quite rightly said, towards theend of my time, we decided to
write a book Stand up Straight.And the reason we wrote the book was
(02:15):
was really to dispel a couple ofmyths about Sandhurst, about the place and
the two myths where firstly who goesthere? And the myth was that,
you know, in order to goto Sanders, you had to have been
born with a silver spoon in yourmouth. You had to have you know,
come from the right family, beto the right school, be to
the right university. That it wasall about privilege, and that's just not
(02:36):
true. It's about potential. SoSandhurst is about finding those those young young
men and women who have the potentialto be leaders and then developing that leadership
over over an arduous course which iswhich is a year long before they then
go off into the army to toto lead their to lead their soldiers.
(02:58):
So it's about it's about potential,not privilege. That was the first myth,
and the second myth was you know, what do we do there?
How do we how do we howdo we take these people and turn them
into leaders in a relatively short spaceof time. And of course, you
know, we've all we've we inthe army understand what goes on there,
but not many other people do.So, Yeah, the lessons that you
get out of the book are someof the basic basic ways that we develop
(03:23):
leaders and it's you know, hopefullyit's a lot of it is practical common
sense in terms of setting them forsuccess. And we thought that would translate
well into into the civilian world aswell. So that's why we wrote the
book. Yeah, well, thankyou so much, and I absolutely love
the book. I always find itso helpful when when there's just really ten
(03:43):
lessons, super practical, insightful.The stories you told from Sandhurst and from
the army were brilliant. So maybe, just for our listeners today, could
you give us like your three favoritelessons if you can. I know they're
probably all your favorite, but ifyou could just choose three that, uh
the most significant in your eyes?Yeah, I mean that the first one
(04:08):
is the one I get asked aboutmost, as I suppose, is the
sort of what we call it theSantas Way, and it's it's the you
know, when we when when youwhen you go to Santurst, you know,
particularly for the first five weeks ofyour time there, it's about it's
about creating habits. It's about habitfor me, and it's things like we
get you to fold your clothes ina certain way, we get you to
(04:32):
tidy your room in a certain way, make your bed in a certain way,
polish your boots in a certain way. And you know, people laugh
when we talk about folding socks andthings like that. But there there is
a there is a there is amethod in our madness and the the the
method is about you know, ifyou if you can do it yourself,
you can get into a routine wherelooking after yourself become second nature. It's
(04:57):
a habit. You looking after youryour weapon system, looking after your personal
hygiene, looking after your your ownpersonal development fitness. It means that you
don't have to think about that.Then you can focus on your people.
That you can focus on making surethat they're looked after. That you know
you have that pride, that selfconfidence in your own ability because you've got
(05:20):
this inbuilt sense of purpose and discipline. That means you can focus all your
attention on your people. So that'sthe first thing. That's the standards way
I suppose is the first lesson.The second one I pull out is what
we called tighten your chin strap andtighten your string strap. We call the
(05:40):
chapter that. But in the army, it's a saying that when things get
really difficult, when everything's going onaround you, you know your helmet is
a sense of protection. Tightening yourchin strap means you know it's going to
get really bad. So I needto buckle down, tighten that because things
are going to go wrong. Andthe whole moral of the of the lesson
is about, you know, resilience, you know, bounce back ability,
(06:04):
that ability to whatever happens to youis pick yourself up, dust yourself down,
and be able to get back intothe fight because you know your people
are going to be relying on you. And at Sandhurst, we we do
we do talk about the threshold offailure. We do talk about and we
practice the fact that we we believepeople learn best when they're in that at
(06:29):
that threshold. You know, whenthey are pushed to the level where they
are they do fail, and aslong as they learn from it and bounce
back stronger, then that's okay becausethat's the way you learn. And so
we do we do try very hardto get that ethos, that culture of
that growth mindset, that learning culturewhere it's okay, you know, long
(06:53):
push yourself as as much as youcan, and if you make a mistake
or you or you fail, that'sokay, as long as you learn.
We don't way to fail to youoften because that shows something wrong. But
as long as you have that culturewhere you learn by doing and get after
it. Then then that's okay.So that's the second one. The last
one are really let me just letme just do on these too quickly,
(07:15):
because I found them very very helpfulwhen I was looking for the first of
all, the Sandhurst Way, isit six a m That that you you're
up for inspection? Is it sixra Valley? So that's when they get
up. They'll probably get up beforethat, but six am is the first,
the first parade where they're expected toto to you know, to to
(07:35):
come outside their rims and stand onthe line. And sometimes it's in the
national anthem or whatever it may be. There'll be something, there'll be something
to get them going. And thenand then and then is it right that
the beds inspected, that their shoesare inspected, that the way their socks
you wrote, I think you describedit as like, oh, smiling towards
(07:55):
me, the way they laid outthe toilet trees have to be a certain
distance away from each other. Andif they're not by six a m.
When when the inspection comes and Iand those are small like details that people
think, ah, oh is itreally that important? But it's it's just
(08:18):
I really liked how you put it, I think you said it was like,
it's those small details that build thebigger ones. Would you just talk
a little bit on that, onon why the small details matter, because
I often find sometimes in teams peopleare like, Oh, they'll worry about
the big thing when the big thingcomes, but right now when they're when
they have maybe small things to workwith, they they're not really too fast
(08:41):
about how they how they execute thesmall thing because they're like, Oh,
it doesn't really matter, I'll justwork on the big thing. But I
always think if you can't do thesmall thing well, you're never going to
be able to do the big thing. Well. How you do every how
you do, how you do somethings is how you do everything. But
would you be able to speak onthat why those details matter, why those
small disciplines matter. Yeah, Imean I think I think if I think
(09:05):
you said, you said it perfectlywell yourself. I think the attention to
detail is really poor. If youget the small things right, the big
things will follow. I think youknow, getting the basics right. Doing
the basics well, you talk,you talk to any sports, professional sports
team, high performance sports team,They'll say, you know, one of
the one of the ways that theyhave got to where they are is by
doing the basics really really well andhaving that attention to detail. And only
(09:28):
then can you build on that andand really get that get that high performance.
And I think, you know,forming these habits, getting these attentions,
we only do it the first fiveweeks. So the first five weeks
is where we do this, youknow, rigorous attention to detail, rigorous
attention to be inspected, to makesure you create these habits that then continue
(09:50):
throughout your career. And you know, if you ask me, now,
do I still form my socks?The answer is no, obviously, But
but do I do I still turnup on time? I I You know,
we have a thing called Santa's time, which is you've got to be
there five minutes before you're supposed tobe there. Why is that important?
When it goes back to the detail. You know, we talk about if
you cannot be late in a militaryoperation, because a military operation is about
(10:16):
coordination of lots of different effects.So you know, going into going into
an attack, going into an assault, you're relying on air, You're a
lying on artillery, you're a lyingon lots of other things that all have
to be coordinated at a point intime. If you are the organization that
is late, the whole operation willfail. So you you just cannot be
(10:37):
late. And therefore, you know, you just that's just that's just a
rule. But it's a rule thatthere's a reason behind it, and that's
because it's it's it's it's a matterof real military importance, really good.
And then and then on tightening yourtinstrap, just a little thought on me
is I want to get onto thethird one. But how do you know
(10:58):
where one's thresholders? Because I've heardit said as well, like growth comes
at the point of resistance, justhow you said it, Like when somebody
gets to that that that real push, that real point of like if I
go any further, it's going tobe too hard, but any less and
it's too easy. How how canyou, because I guess that point is
different for everyone, How are youable to to push people to that point
(11:24):
so that they so that they're ableto grow? I think it relies on
on quality instructors who know who knowtheir people well and know when to push
and when they've had enough. Andthat's that's both physically. I mean,
obviously there's a lot of physical developmentat Santist. You know, we turn
you know, being a being asoldier, particularly today is is it's always
(11:46):
been the same, but you haveto be very physically robust. They're almost
we're almost developing professional athletes, andso pushing people physically is important, but
also mentally, you know, weyou know, we expect people to be
operating in crisis situations. We're expectingpeople to make life and death decisions in
(12:07):
very difficult circumstances when they probably havenot got enough information. They just got
to go with their guts. Andtherefore we work on the fact that you
can push you push people to theedge in training and see where they fail.
Because they can't fail in the reallife. They can't fail in operations.
They've got to do the best theypossibly can. So long winded answer
(12:30):
your question, I think it's downto down to really quality and structures,
which we do have at Santists.Who know, who know how far they
can push, But it is aboutpushing everybody to that to that threshold at
some stage in the course, otherwisethey won't learn what crisis really is.
Brilliant, all right, what's yourthird what's your third favorite lesson from the
ten lessons, Well, I'm goingto finish with the last lesson, which
(12:56):
is is comes from the motto ofthe academy, which is served to lead.
And we talk about you know,it's been about the power of example,
and you know, serve to leadthe motto, I suppose it's about
having that ability to inspire people twofollow you into probably situations where you know
(13:26):
it's obviously going to be pretty prettypretty difficult and of life threatening. You
know what does that mean? Well, serve to lead really is about the
fact that it's not it's not enoughjust to have the rank. It's not
enough just to be the officer togive the orders. You've got to create
that relationship with your people where theygenuinely trust you and want to follow you
(13:50):
because because they like you and respectyou as a as a person above above
everything else. And so how doyou do that where it's about having that
having that contract of mutual with yourpeople. And that last that last lesson
is about you know, the powerof example, about you know, walking,
the walking, walking, the walklot, just talking about it,
(14:11):
you know, all those things thatif you're going to be a genuinely good,
powerful leader, you've got to you'vegot to get out there and and
and really, you know, reallylead by example. Yeah, I think
for some of the words you usewere integrity, how integrity is so important
to to the leader And and Ithink he gave the example of I can't
(14:33):
remember what the Nate general's name was, but but he always knew the key
the details of each of the peopleon his teams, like either their either
like what they're going through or liketheir family members situations. But it wasn't
because it was him, it washis driver. Yeah, and that that
that really had a good memory.But but something like that that you're able
to to really in my world woulduse the term like smell like the sheep,
(14:58):
like be amongst the pe people knowwho they are, learn to love
them and not and actually love themthat you not just pretending you do,
but like genuinely like knowing that myposition as the leader is to make you
better, like my whole role isto is to help you make a difference
in the world, fulfill all thepurposes that have been placed on your heart
(15:22):
and generally mean that and that meansbeing alongside them and people notice when you
when you have that, and theynotice when you don't and you can't,
and I just feel like it's sotrue that you just can't get away with
it for long. Like if youdon't serve to lead, that positional leadership
only lasts a certain time because peopledo get fed up just doing what they're
(15:45):
told. Yeah, I think itthat the positional leadership, you know,
that comes with authority, as yousay, it does work. It does
work for a time and people,you know, particularly in the civilian world.
I suppose if you pay people enough, they'll they'll they'll, they'll,
they'll, they'll do what they haveto do. But will they go that
extra mile for you? Probably not. I think unless you have got that
(16:08):
that relationship with them that means thatthey will go above and beyond. That's
that's where real serve to lead leadershipcomes in, which is a space that
we in the military are often oftenput into. So I suppose you would
you know that That's that's why wewe we talk about an awful lot because
you know, when when someone's shootingat you, you know, no amount
(16:33):
of money is going to make noamount of money is going to make them,
you know, do do what theywhat they need to do. It's
about something something bigger than that.It's about and it's not just about leading.
But it's not just about leadership.It's about belonging to a team.
It's about that sense of sense ofcamaraderie, it's about trusting your mates.
But a lot of it is about, you know, trusting and believing in
the person who's leading you. Reallygood, all right, Paul, Well,
(16:56):
thank you so much for showing thosethree points. Now, I just
have two questions because one of thethings I'm trying, I'm trying to learn
about a lot recently is failure andhow how critical it is the success for
the success of a leader, forthe growth of a person. So I
wanted to ask you, firstly,what does failure mean to you? What
does it look like to you?And then after that, I want to
(17:18):
ask you what's been the biggest failurein your life? But how has it
shaped you to become who you aretoday? So first of all, like,
what does failure mean to you?What does failure mean to you?
But I suppose it goes back towhat we what we were talking about in
the book. I mean, everybodyat some stage will fail. I mean,
it's it's a it's a natural.You know. I sometimes think that
(17:40):
one of the issues around today,particularly with with some of our youngsters,
there is there almost tried tried toprotect them from failure and try not not
to let them fail. You know, there's it's not, it's not sometimes
it's not. It's not PC tolet people fail. And it will come
second. You know, everyone's goingto win all the time. And unless
unless you do suffer that setbacks inlife, you know you're not You're not
(18:03):
going to You're not going to grow. You could argue, you know you're
not gonna you're not going to developthe character you tough, tough in the
character that means you, you know, you bounce back and get after things.
So I think failure is a failureis almost almost a requirement as a
constant. It's out there. Interms of my failure, I mean,
I've had many many failures at variousat various various levels. I think I
(18:27):
think the biggest and I know you'regoing to ask me this, I've been
thinking about it. I mean,I you know, I've failed tests,
I failed exams, I've failed youknow. But but I suppose in terms
of my professional life, the biggestfailures I've had is when when you know
I've I've I've lost I've lost peoplein my in my command. You know,
(18:48):
soldiers have have died because of ofthings that I've that I've done or
haven't done. And if I'm honestwith you, you know you in a
in a difficult situation, in ain a demanding situation, you know you've
got to be able to look yourselfin the mirror and say that you know,
I made the best possible decision Icould based on the on the information
(19:12):
I had, And and as longas you can look yourself in the eye
and say you did your best,then then that's that's that's good enough for
me. Where I have really struggledand he's asked me what the biggest biggest
failures is, where you know,maybe a culture in my organization for which
I've responsible has led to somebody doingsomething that that you know, you just
(19:38):
feel, you feel a sense ofa real sense of failure, that you
failed as a leader. I'll giveyou. I'll give you an example.
So we we came back from fromoperations in the Middle East, and we've
had a we've had a reasonably successful, successful tour and we came back and
we were based in Germany, andyou know, we we we had some
(20:00):
time to sort ourselves out. Butanyway, some some some some guys went
out for for for drinks and theyhad a few drinks and they had far
too much to drink. And oneone soldier was in a bad way.
So they put him in a taxiand sent him back to two barracks.
(20:22):
On the way back, that thetaxi driver trapped him out of the taxi
taxi because he was obviously not verywell, chopped him out on the on
the motorway and soldiers know where hewas, tried to get across the motorway,
got got hit by a car andkilled. And you know, there's
so many, so many things aboutthat that that really that really hurt,
and the mid the main ones thatwe had a culture where, you know,
(20:45):
we that it was okay to forthem to just sort of say it's
let then go home on his own. They went, they went looking after
him, you know, the waythat we've been looking after one another for
the previous you know, six months, and that that sort of that sort
of looks that that was a senseof failure for us all collectively. That
would allowed that to happen, butparticularly for me, because I've felt,
(21:08):
you know, well, what sortof culture is that that we can you
know, people there are people dothat, and I've I've had others where
the sadly soldiers have taken their ownlives, you know, and again you
think, how how could they notreach out for help? How could they
not feel that they could, youknow, put the hand up and ask
for help? Why? Why isthis culture so again long winded answer to
(21:32):
your question, But I do thinkas a leader, you do take it
very personally when things like that happen, and you do do do tutors of
failure. How have I dealt withit? You know, I've I've struggled
sometimes with with with my with mymental well being, still do sometimes,
but I think I've I'm big enoughto realize when I need to, when
(21:55):
I need some help, and I'velearned a long time ago that it's okay
to not be okay. And youknow, I do use tools. I
use behavioral therapies, comfort to favortherapies, to realthink things, to try
and reorder my thoughts, to workout how I can change negative thoughts into
(22:15):
positive behaviors and all that's all thatsort of stuff that's out there, and
I'll say to all your listeners,oh, just do it. I mean,
we all fail, we all struggle. We wouldn't be we wouldn't be
human if we didn't. Uh.And some of the most courageous people I've
ever served with have been the oneswho can put the hands up and say
I need a bit of help.Mm hmm. Wow. Well, Paul,
(22:41):
thank you so much for for yourhonesty and your vulnerability in that.
And I just want to get tosay again thank you so much for your
service to our country over all theseyears. Yeah, for everyone listening,
Like, failure, it's going tohappen to all of us. It's what
we do in the mid to that. And it's okay to reach out for
(23:02):
help and to not be okay inthe midst of it, Like we're not
made to do this alone. Nomatter how what your failure looks like in
the midst of it, don't feellike, oh you're you're an island that
you have to deal with it onyour own. Seek out for help even
after it. Really good, reallygood advice. Paul. Thank you so
much again for your book and forthe ten lessons and for the three lessons
(23:25):
that we looked today, the SandhurstWay, tighten your tinstrap and surf to
lead. Thank you for your bookStand Up Straight. I would encourage everyone
to get that book. And thankyou so much Paul for your time today.
Absolute pleasure. Thank you very muchfor having me on. Really enjoyed
it all right, See you nexttime. Everybody on London's Leadership Podcast.
Thank you so much for joining metoday. I can't wait to see you
(23:48):
next time. Remember to leave areview, let me know what you think
and if you need help implementing anythingwe've discussed, or you just want to
say hello, feel free to emailme at Fernando at London's Leadership Podcast dot
com. Until next time, rememberto live and lead with love every day.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.