December 4, 2023 • 28 mins
James Ray is the founder and CEO of XCC the Extreme character challenge focused on helping men their full selves.
XCC focuses on the mind, body and soul of a man!
"Our mental health, like physical health, can fluctuate. It is reported that almost 50% men regularly feel worried or “low”. Our minds are also the places we often make moral decisions, about what we think is right or wrong. We think through problems and think about issues.On an XCC we make space to talk about some of the difficult challenges we face and to speak together about some of the “solutions” or at least some ways others have found answers.It is a time for you to think.That’s why it is a MIND ADVENTURE.
It can be said that we don’t just have a body, we are a body! Our bodies are remarkable, strong, resilient and powerful….but some of us haven’t discovered that yet.An XCC is a demanding physical experience, designed to challenge and test your body. It’s not a military fitness test, more an exercise in determination and resilience. Those who have gone before you have said it was one of the most rewarding physical experiences of their lives.Your body will impress you…but you should get ready: train a bit, it will be tough. That’s why it is a BODY ADVENTURE
You might be wondering: “What do they mean by SOUL?” – some people don’t even believe such a thing exists!….but we think that when you connect with people, or watch a sunset or stand in a quiet place, something can happen “inside” us. And this is a SOUL connection….XCC events are run as a journey to discover identity and purpose. Faith is therefore a key element and is something we talk about, specifically from a Christian perspective. However everything we do is held as “optional” in the sense that you buy in as much as you can and want to. That’s why it is a SOUL ADVENTURE"
XCC focuses on the mind, body and soul of a man!
"Our mental health, like physical health, can fluctuate. It is reported that almost 50% men regularly feel worried or “low”. Our minds are also the places we often make moral decisions, about what we think is right or wrong. We think through problems and think about issues.On an XCC we make space to talk about some of the difficult challenges we face and to speak together about some of the “solutions” or at least some ways others have found answers.It is a time for you to think.That’s why it is a MIND ADVENTURE.
It can be said that we don’t just have a body, we are a body! Our bodies are remarkable, strong, resilient and powerful….but some of us haven’t discovered that yet.An XCC is a demanding physical experience, designed to challenge and test your body. It’s not a military fitness test, more an exercise in determination and resilience. Those who have gone before you have said it was one of the most rewarding physical experiences of their lives.Your body will impress you…but you should get ready: train a bit, it will be tough. That’s why it is a BODY ADVENTURE
You might be wondering: “What do they mean by SOUL?” – some people don’t even believe such a thing exists!….but we think that when you connect with people, or watch a sunset or stand in a quiet place, something can happen “inside” us. And this is a SOUL connection….XCC events are run as a journey to discover identity and purpose. Faith is therefore a key element and is something we talk about, specifically from a Christian perspective. However everything we do is held as “optional” in the sense that you buy in as much as you can and want to. That’s why it is a SOUL ADVENTURE"
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Whether you believe it or not,you are a leader in your everyday life.
Whether it's within your family, inyour work environment, or even online,
you can and will affect change inthose around you. Join me in
conversation with authors, professors and leaders, so together we can learn all things
regarding leadership and life. I amyour host, Fernando Carrillo, and welcome
(00:22):
to another episode of London's Leadership Podcast. Hello everyone, welcome back to London's
Leadership Podcast. Today I'm with agood friend of mine, James Ray,
who I always think looks like thePrince in all the dignity, so beautiful
blonde hair. But he's an amazingleader, a great friend, and I
(00:46):
rasingly went on on one of thethings that he does called XEC and we
went to Wells for a brutal twentyfour hour adventure which I think blee changed
my life as a man and asa leader. And I took a group
of friends of mine and we wereall equally impacted. So I wanted to
speak with James just to hear abit about his story about why how he
(01:07):
started actually see, what was thethought behind it, why he's passionate about
raising men, what impact he thinksmen might have on society and all of
those things, and then we'll talka bit about failure later on. But
James, Yeah, so tell usa bit about yourself, how you came
to run this thing XUC, whatit means, what is it for people
who might not have heard of it, Thanks for having me for Nanda.
(01:32):
For those listening who are not aman, this is also a podcast view
really, because the chances are youprobably know a man, and men are
quite unique in the sense that there'sa certain set of issues or concerns that
men share that are generally pretty uniqueto men. It's certainly not the men
are any better than anybody else.My view is that men often need a
(01:53):
lot of help because in so manyareas of their lives, they just seem
to be unable to match up tonot only what's expected of them, what's
required of them, but also justsome normal human behaviors, things like excepting
when they're wrong, saying sorry,things like that. Men often struggle and
often struggle to open up. Weknow obviously in society that the suicide rates
(02:16):
among young men especially are really sad, that they're too high, that there's
just too many men feeling like theyare worthless and un needed. You know,
they have no value, and alsothat they are purposeless in sense of
no vision. And so I haveI mentioned one of many generations of boys
(02:39):
only I've got a son that threesons, I said, But my son
when he was born, I thinkhe's a fifth or maybe sixth generation of
all men in one of my familylines. So there's a sense of like
I grew up among men. I'vegot three brothers. I then went joined
the neighbor reserves for a bit,worked in a boarding school for a bit
(03:01):
with young men as a housemaster.So I spent a lot of time around
men and young men especially, Andyeah, as I said, my senses
that guys need help, but thatis hard to find. And also true
male connection with each other is alsoquite rare. And so there's this feeling
around trying to do something. Andso this wilderness experience what we call the
(03:23):
Extreme Character Challenge and XTC was born, and the idea from that was a
taking men into the wilderness for amind body of sole adventure. So it's
a bit like when you take yourcar for an mot you have it checked
out by the guy in the garage, and says look or the or girl
whatever whoever it is, says,look at you. Your fan belt needs
(03:44):
changing or your oil filter. Soyou know something I don't know. But
when I go I often have noideas as the car seems fine, and
then someone says, oh, thisis going to be a problem for you
if not now, in a fewweeks or months time. And often again
I think it's humans. We canbe a bit like that, where there's
areas of our lives that if they'renot addressed, there'll be a problem for
us in a few weeks or monthstime, and so we need someone who
(04:08):
can help us diagnose. But againgoing back to the issue of men not
really being that willing or able oropen for challenge or some kind of confrontation,
men often shy away from that experienceby hiding and pretending faking, when
actually just some times to get awayin the wild would help us uncover who
we really are. And also,this experience is physical, and we often
(04:30):
need physical challenge. We love physicalchallenge. We're just telling me Finanther,
you've just done some epic challenges weekend, and you're you know, you're a
sort of superhuman guy. I'm notlike you, I'm not able to do
all those things. I'm just anordinary guy who needs to be kept accountable
for my health and well being,for my physical state. And so having
a physical challenge is good for me, something on the horizon that I can
(04:54):
sort of train for but also justkeep an eye on and watch out for.
But then there's that other element ofthe moral of what's my moral temperature?
Like, so I might be feelingphysically fit or physically weak, but
what am I like in my moralvalues? Am I paying my taxes?
Am I trying to steal things?Am I trying to hide stuff? Am
I lying? Or am I ableto tell the truth? How's my relationship
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with things like porn or alcohol ordrugs? How my relationship with other people
humans? Am I thinking about othersmore than myself or mostly about myself?
These kind of things where actually alsoneed to check up there? And there's
the spiritual, this idea of whywe're here. It was the point is
the more to life. And sowe've kind of packaged all that up into
a four day challenge three nights inthe wild. It's pretty tough, it's
(05:42):
pretty challenging. Some people will sayit's the most challenging thing they've ever done
in their life. Some people willsay the most rewarding thing you've ever done
in their lives. We just goon to adventure and see what happens.
So yeah, that's what I do. Take like two hundred guys at a
time, so quite big groups,break them into the groups, so they
make some friendships. And that's obviouslyfrom the way you were in Wales a
(06:03):
few months ago in the rain andthe wind and the wild. Really inspiring.
James, thank you so much.It's incredible to hear that how you
grew up around men and I wascompletely different. I grew up around around
women. I never had a relationshipwith my father. There's not a single
marriage in my entire family, somy whole family is led by these incredibly
(06:24):
strong women, which is great butterrifying at times. So I've had to
learn, like, and I'm stilllearning, like what it means to be
a man. And I've made somany mistakes in my life trying to figure
out what that means, like pursuingpower or pursuing popularity or money, trying
(06:49):
to think that that's the thing thatwould make me a man, and made
so many mistakes I went to prisonwhen I was seventeen and rehab at nineteen,
and even after that I started goingto church, but there was still
no No one would really ever tellme what it means to be a man,
or what it looks like, orhow I'm supposed to behave I guess.
(07:16):
I don't know if people just assumeyou should know that. I don't
know. I don't know what peoplethink. But no one ever told me
or taught me what it meant.I only got my example from from movies,
I guess, or from or fromthings that my mom would say,
but that her perception was skewed,and so I no one ever taught me.
(07:36):
And I've been on this journey nowover the past year or so to
really figure out what it means,because I have a group of men around
me that I'm kind of investing inand I don't think and I don't think
anyone's ever told them, and Idon't think many people really talk about it.
And I want to help. Firstof all, I need it for
(08:01):
myself so that I can one day'dbe a good father. One, they'd
be a good husband, one,they'd be a good role model in society.
But also so that I can giveit to others, so that others
can do that and they can giveit to their children and their sons.
So all of that to say iswhat do you think like the role of
a man is? Or what doyou think if yeah, what do you
(08:26):
think the role of a man is? Let's start there. Let's go back
a step to what you just said, which is really important. I think
half the problem is that it hasto be intentional. This transfer of masculinity
has to be an intentional action overa period of time, and often men
are very guilty of being unintentional,like it just happens. You know the
(08:48):
amount of guys you know who'd belike, oh, yeah, sorry,
mate, that just happened earlier.I don't know why that happened, or
yeah I didn't mean for that tohappen, but it happened, or I
don't know how that happened. There'sthat kind of thing around. Guys often
abdicating respond with you moving back fromresponsibly it wasn't really me. There's a
line which someone said which is man'sfirst sin is passivity. It's like sitting
back and doing nothing about a problem. And so the first thing about masculine
(09:11):
is I think it has to betransferred intentionally, like we have to be
deliberate about it. And for ourancestors there would have been like these rights
of passages, so there would havebeen a moment where the boy becomes a
man, and the other men aroundrecognize that moment and call it out and
say this is it. And whatwe tended to do now these days is
like transfer that to be like anage based thing. So you're sixteen,
(09:35):
so hey, now you can smokeand have sex. Now you're seventeen,
Now you can drive. At eighteen, now you can drink. And these
are kind of the UK laws,and so now I'm going to give your
first pint and eighteen, Well done, son, you've become a man.
But if you think about it fora moment, these are ridiculous things that
we're offering young men. There's beinga badge of masculinity to be able to
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drink, smoke, dag drive.It's like these are the most superficial,
base value things that anyway most kidshave already done. So there's nothing actually
added. There's no male virtue ontop of that. And what I think
we have to do is be reallyintensial about what we think masculinity is.
You said your language was, sowhat's the role of a man? And
(10:20):
I think it's interesting I would stopthat with that word role, and so
immediately we put like a job titleonto it. I don't know if there
is a role of a man,because I believe that whatever your role is
is a man's role. Whatever myrole is is a man's role. So
I could be somebody interested in flowerpressing, or you know, poetry,
or playing guitar, or weightlifting orbeard trimming. These are all roles of
(10:43):
men if men do them. Thepoint is, I think it's not so
much the role of a man,but it's what it means to be a
man. And I think something aboutmasculinity, which is about being, and
in that being is the bit youwere talking about about the security of a
male presence, which you didn't have. And one of the things that is
natural in their nature is just default. And you know, across the world
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is consistent is that male physical formsare bigger than female physical forms. So
there's something about having a bigger formin a permanent presence or this bigger physical
form, and when bigger physicality comes, the opportunity or the possibility of being
stronger to lift something, to movesomething, to hold something, or to
hold something back. So there's somethingabout masculinergy which is around being able to
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do that. But also the wordsprotect might come over that, because a
bigger physical reform is able to justhold back or to push away, or
to hold off or to lift up. So it's a sense of protection.
But also I think linked to that, there's a sense of empowerment. And
I think one of the things wemissed massively in our current society is someone
saying go for it. Most peoplewarn you about the risks, but very
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few people will encourage you for thereward. And if they do, say
go for it because they don't care, like yeah you do, you make
you go for it, Do whatyou want, whatever makes you happy.
These are not empowering statements. ThereI don't care statements, I don't care
about you statements. An empowering statementis for you to tell me what your
future looks like and for me tosay I believe in you. I think
you can do that. Here's whatI'm concerned for you. Here's whe I
(12:16):
think it might go wrong. Buthere's where I think you're going to thrive.
Is where I think your skill setsare. And I think there's something
beautiful about that where men do it, especially with other men, because what
it basically says, we believe inyou, we're for you, and we're
cheering you on, but also inthat sense of we're not blind either to
the mistakes. We're not blind towhat's going to stop you or happy you,
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but we agree, we approve,and so I think there's something about
that in masculinity too, if youlike, men and women can both be
masculine and feminine in different areas.So I think femininity, by contrast,
is the more nurturing side. ButI think we have stacks of nurturing going
on in our society. We havelots of careful don't worry, I'll look
after you. It'll be all right. We've got this insurance in place,
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that protection plan, the police willcome, the ambulance will be there.
Don't hurt yourself. All of thatis very common in our language. Don't
step out too much. What wedon't really hear is go for it.
I believe in you, and I'mfor you. I'm with you. I
know what you said about not puttinglike a job title next to it.
Like I did about the role ofthem, but what does it mean to
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be a man? And you mentionedkind of strength, empowerment, protection,
uh, and and because I thinkthe role, yeah, whatever role a
man's doing, if a man's doingit, it can be a man's role.
So that's a good way of thinkingabout it. And that we also
even as men have also feminine attributestoo at the same time that they're both
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combined. It's not just so soone way. Well, I was going
to ask you, so if ifif if kind of like being a man
includes those things like empowerment and strengthand maybe providing and protecting and those things.
What I don't know if you thinkthis is true or not, But
do you why do you think thatsociety has has that's kind of do you
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or let me particulately this way,do you think that society has has been
has tried to put men down orput masculinity down. And if so,
in what way? No, Ithink men have put men down. We've
done it ourselves. Let me justthink a step back as well. When
you're talking about strength, I alsothink strength is weakness, So I you
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know, let's not assume that mysummary of masculinity is all like the best
bits of this kind of houha.Don't worry. I'm here to save you.
I'm out of all of your problems. I don't believe that's true masculinity,
but I believe true masculinity is someoneembodying empowerment but also a self awareness
that they're aware. Strength is meknowing what I can do, but also
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knowing what I can't do. Sowe talk about physical strength of being strong,
well, we're all You're much strongerthan me. We're all in different
strengths. You can lift things thatI can't. One of my great strengths
is to know I can't lift that, but Fernando can, so I'm going
to ask Fernanda to help me.Another great strength for me to know I'm
not very good at this, sosomeone else could do it form me or
(15:18):
with me, and I could askfor help. Another great strength is to
know that I'm not very sensitive inthis moment, so to ask somebody else
who's more sensitive than me to helpme be sensitive. These are fantastic strengths.
And I think if we had toyour current question, which is what
society had done about masculinity, theproblem is men have let themselves down for
hundreds of years by being selfish.I believe that to most humans are pretty
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selfish, it self oriented. There'sthis idea. Sorry, as Lewis said,
humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less.
And I think most of us coulddo with thinking of ourselves a bit less.
Like does it really matter today whatI really think about, what needs
to happen at every five minutes?My political views really matter? Am I?
(16:03):
Am I really that hungry today?Like starving? Or am I just
a bit peckish? We kind ofput ourselves and said, oh I'm finished,
I'm starving. Oh I need this, I want that, I think
this. Most of the time,we don't really know much about what we're
talking about. So if we thoughtwere less of ourselves, then sorry,
thinking less selfishly so less about me? Not? But I'm worthless. I'm
(16:27):
actually worth a huge amount. Butthat doesn't mean that everything I say is
fantastic. So I think men havedone themselves down by abusing the position that
they've had the power they've had.But at the same time, that's not
the fault of young men. That'sthe fault of me and my fathers and
forefathers, and many generations. Sothere's a problem we have right now,
which is that we're tending to blameyoung men for the sins of their forefathers.
(16:51):
And I think there's a risk inthat. And if anyone listening,
if you know a young man andthe chances of all of us, you
need rids really to ask yourself questionsto what aspiration or hope does that young
man have if we've taken away fromhim the virtues and value that his father
messed up on because of his father'smess up, I think that's a real
problem for our young men. AndI'm furious about it because I've got sons,
(17:17):
and my sons are beautiful. They'rekind and empathetic where I wasn't when
I was their age. They're gentleand sensitive where I wasn't. They're understanding
and full of a kind of broadview of life that I was narrow.
But they're going to be fantastic humans. And yet, if their gender disqual
disqualifies them because I was a bitof a moron, or I was sexist,
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or I was misogynists, that's nottheir fault. And so we need
to give him a chance. Andmy view is that that's what society is
not. They could at is asecond chance for men, and I think
what it needs now as men tostep up. But these kids can't do
it on their oad. They can'tjust suddenly appear in the space because they've
had no role model. Because fora long time they've been told to shush,
(18:00):
stayed quiet. It's not your space. To think you've had your time,
And the difficulty of them is theyhaven't, and so they really now
the risk we've got with social mediainfluencers. We all know one or two
who are coming online and empowering thenagain, but they're empowering them with this
kind of violent message of rise upand fight back. My viewer is right,
(18:22):
just rise up. You don't haveto fight anyone, rise up and
just take your place. In myexperience, healthy masculinity is welcomed wherever it
it's seen. I know loads ofexamples of it's actually everywhere. There's some
fantastic heroes out there. The mediawants us to believe that, you know,
we're pitted against each other, andsome parts of media wants to believe
all men are a risk, adanger, society need to be locked up.
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Others would want you to believe thatmen you know are outdated, or
that there is no such thing asmasculinity. These are all lies. But
we don't have to believe that.We can just live in a different way.
But I think it's about that livingin that way with authenticity, which
means being actually who you say youare, not just you know you know
who you want to be, butactually being who you say you are authenticity.
(19:06):
To me, it's about being thereal deal. It's about being aware
of what others expectations of you area meeting those where that's healthy. So
if my sons want me to betheir dad, the best thing I can
do is to be a father tothem. It's not to say, well,
actually I want to be your mother. They already have another mother.
They need a father, So asa man, I need to step into
my role as a father. Mywife wants a husband, and so I
(19:30):
need to be a husband to her. Whatever that looks like. She and
I can negotiate that. Maybe ifsomebody comes to attack my family, she
is the one that leaps forward todefenders. But there's no issue. Is
the problem. I can be athome who vacuuming the floor? These roles
are ridiculous. That's not what makesme a man. What makes a man
is when she says to me,will you do what you say you do?
And I say I'll do that.That for me is a masculinity.
(19:52):
And then I say to her,go for it. I'm for you.
How can I empower you? Howcan I protect you? How can I
most support you? Never when I'veasked those questions, if she said to
me, I wish you wouldn't supportme in this way. I wish you
wouldn't empower me like that, youknow, M Yeah, so I So
what we're hearing you say is Isaid what I asked, what what do
(20:12):
you what do you think cultures?And you said was it's not culture's fault.
It's men's fault, men who haverefused to stand up and and take
their place and and and be men. And then you then you were saying
how that we shouldn't blame young mennow for the sense of their fathers or
their forefathers, because they're not givingmen a chance right now. And then
(20:34):
I was going to ask you whatdo you think we should do to to
help encourage men to and to bemen? But I think you answered it
by saying, well, men justneed to rise up. They don't need
to listen to some of the peopleon social media who are saying rise up
and fight back. I heard yousay that they don't need to fight anyone.
They just need to stand up andbe men and and and serve and
(21:00):
and protect and yeah, you know, do the things that that we were
saying that they should do, whichwhich I think is really interesting. So,
James, I was going to askone more thing, if if h.
One of the things that we talkabout here is about failure and what's
your what's what's what does what doeslike failure mean to you? And what's
(21:23):
been one of your biggest failures?And how have you changed as a result
of that? Well, that's abig question. Let me just take a
step back, you don't mind justto summarize in two words for your previous
statement of what it how do webe a man more effectively? I think
there's two words that really help withthat. One is take responsibility and the
other is to find balance. Sothe words are balance and responsibility. This
(21:45):
idea in life that actually you needto get your life in balance, but
also take responsibly. Don't be avictim, don't winge about what has happened
to you all the time and allthe problems take response for any more you
can. I've actually just read abook called Sex, Drugs and Responsibility.
It's the Journey to becoming an authenticMan. And this is the idea of
the book is balance and responsibility.But to your question, failure the way
(22:07):
I see it, yeah, isthat from your Is that from your book?
Did you say? Yeah, justreading a book called Sex, Drugs
and Responsibility, The journey to becomethe authentic man. Let me tell you
about failure. So, first ofall, I think that I rephrase a
little bit around failure. I failall the time, but I don't always
(22:32):
see failure as being a problem.So I don't know if I remember failures
in that way. I've messed upat loads of ways. One of one
of my biggest regrets in life isspeaking without thinking, especially betraying friends confidences
by normally to try to try andbe cool or to try and fix things
(22:52):
or to make things go in myway. And there's been a couple of
times, specifically, I mean it'shappened a lot, but specificicularly where I've
broken very deep friendships by speaking thoughtlesslyand so one of my big big weaknesses
failures is being thoughtless. The otherthing is linked to it, it's being
(23:15):
not very gentle so careless with theimpact of me. I always want to
try and be a gentle man,but sometimes I can be too much in
a room or too much in whatI say, and the thoughtlessness and carelessness
of that, I often forget whatit feels like for the other person or
(23:36):
for the other on the other side. I mean, So those are the
key failures. There are areas thatare failing regularly. But let me just
say the reason I think it's differentis that I also feel like that's in
those failures. I think like this. Imagine you fall over into mud and
your face down in the mud.Well, the instinct is to leap up
out of the mud and to dryoff, like clean off as quickly as
possible, get all the mud offme, and then carry on as I
(24:00):
was before. My view of failureis like when you're falling in the mud
that actually you just sit in themud for a second. You find that
people gather around and you connect withpeople in the mud far better than when
you're cleaned off. So if Isit in the mud and someone else walks
past and ah, what's up?I fell over? And I sat and
falling in the mud, and Isaid, well, do you want to
(24:22):
hand out the mud? Yeah?I love can you? Would you help
me? And they might help meup? And they get it muddy as
well as the process. And thenand then they said, I had it
happen. I tripped over and myshoes too big, or I'm careless or
I was reckless. Well, well, look, I'm I can help you
not trip over next time. Andwhat would actually happen is if I sat
in that mud a bit longer,I build connections with people or find out
(24:42):
stuff about myself or others that wouldbe so much more deep and wonderful than
if I just leap up as quickas possible and try and dry myself off
and wash myself off and run awayfrom failure. And I think as humans
we often allow each other to dothat kind of fir process of quickly clean
off and wash off and then comeback when you're clean less, carry on
(25:03):
with life, or I won't.I'll look away while you're having in a
balancing moment, or I'll be inthe next room ready for when you're finished.
And my view is actually what weshould become more accustomed to is just
saying, oh, you're in themud, what do you want me to
do? How can I help you? How can I be of use to
you today? Is there anything youneed? Can I kind of sit in
the mud with you for a bitand then we can both get up and
we can both want to and wedon't need to wash too quickly because loads
(25:26):
of people are covering mud. Andactually the more mud we have, and
that's the more human we are.So there's something about that that I think
we I try not to run awayfrom. And so I am a lot
of a failure, but I alsosee those as being my times where were
not successes, but times where Ilearn the most and times where I grow
the most. Really good, Thankyou so much, James, And it's
(25:48):
been so great talking to you,talking to you about masculinity, what it
means to be a man and talkabout failure. Tell us a little bit
about your books so that we cango get it and when's that coming out?
Thanks Bai. You didn't know I'vewritten one. So this isn't some
sort of stitch up, but it'sliterally being launched at the mode we think
we're going to just pump it outthrough Amazon. But it's written with a
(26:08):
friend of my Mile's Dylan, andwe've written a book. The title is
Sex, Drugs and Responsibility Being theAuthentic Man, and Miles wanted to call
it being a Solid Bloke or theRough Guide to Becoming a Solid Bloke.
The idea is like just we needto help each other to be the man
we want to be, but someof that will need to be written down.
(26:29):
I think it asked what I thinka real man is like, generally
say, I think three things,particularly that a real man is someone who
could admit when they're wrong, tosay sorry and ask for help. And
I think also there's a linked upbit to that, which is a guy
who knows where he's going. Andso the book is a bit about that.
It's a bit about saying, well, what does it look like to
admit when you're wrong? What arethe problems there, what are the complications
there, what are the beauties ofthat? How do we say sorry?
(26:52):
How do we do that well?And how can we ask for help?
What kind of help do we need? Where we're going to find help?
And then finally, what does purposelook like for us? Man, what
does it look like for us tostep into this idea that we do have
a role in society is vitally importantand I think one of the great sadnesses
of our time is the absence ofpositive male role models for men and women.
But the reality is it doesn't happenby accident, and you can't just
(27:15):
magic it up or wish it onyourself. It requires hard work and effort
and mostly it's it's a it's akind of dirty, dark work and where
no one's watching, But it's onethat when the moment comes for the men
to step up, that it's beautifulwhen guys do. So that's kind of
the book, but that's also mylife. That's really what I'm about.
(27:36):
And I'm grateful to talk to you. I think you're one of those guys,
and I see what you're doing andI think it is it's all part
of it. Oh, James,Well, it's been so wonderful to talk
to you today again. And I'llsee you in Scotland for the next XEC.
And when when's the date of yourbook? When does it get released
on Amazon? Do you know yet? We're going to We're going to try
get out. Yeah, in Decembertwenty tray through December twenty twenty three,
(28:00):
and it's sex, drugs and responsibility. Yeah, becoming the authentic man.
It's like a whole time sex,drugs and responsibility, becoming the authentic man.
All right, Well, I hopeeveryone goes and gets that. James,
It's been so wonderful speaking to you, and I'll see you soon,
my friend. Thanks Bunny, byeeveryone. Thank you so much for joining
(28:21):
me today. I can't wait tosee you next time. Remember to leave
a review, let me know whatyou think and if you need help implementing
anything we've discussed, or you justwant to say hello, feel free to
email me at Fernando at London's Leadershippodcast dot com. Until next time,
remember to live and lead with loveevery day,
Whether you believe it or not,you are a leader in your everyday life.
Whether it's within your family, inyour work environment, or even online,
you can and will affect change inthose around you. Join me in
conversation with authors, professors and leaders, so together we can learn all things
regarding leadership and life. I amyour host, Fernando Carrillo, and welcome
(00:22):
to another episode of London's Leadership Podcast. Hello everyone, welcome back to London's
Leadership Podcast. Today I'm with agood friend of mine, James Ray,
who I always think looks like thePrince in all the dignity, so beautiful
blonde hair. But he's an amazingleader, a great friend, and I
(00:46):
rasingly went on on one of thethings that he does called XEC and we
went to Wells for a brutal twentyfour hour adventure which I think blee changed
my life as a man and asa leader. And I took a group
of friends of mine and we wereall equally impacted. So I wanted to
speak with James just to hear abit about his story about why how he
(01:07):
started actually see, what was thethought behind it, why he's passionate about
raising men, what impact he thinksmen might have on society and all of
those things, and then we'll talka bit about failure later on. But
James, Yeah, so tell usa bit about yourself, how you came
to run this thing XUC, whatit means, what is it for people
who might not have heard of it, Thanks for having me for Nanda.
(01:32):
For those listening who are not aman, this is also a podcast view
really, because the chances are youprobably know a man, and men are
quite unique in the sense that there'sa certain set of issues or concerns that
men share that are generally pretty uniqueto men. It's certainly not the men
are any better than anybody else.My view is that men often need a
(01:53):
lot of help because in so manyareas of their lives, they just seem
to be unable to match up tonot only what's expected of them, what's
required of them, but also justsome normal human behaviors, things like excepting
when they're wrong, saying sorry,things like that. Men often struggle and
often struggle to open up. Weknow obviously in society that the suicide rates
(02:16):
among young men especially are really sad, that they're too high, that there's
just too many men feeling like theyare worthless and un needed. You know,
they have no value, and alsothat they are purposeless in sense of
no vision. And so I haveI mentioned one of many generations of boys
(02:39):
only I've got a son that threesons, I said, But my son
when he was born, I thinkhe's a fifth or maybe sixth generation of
all men in one of my familylines. So there's a sense of like
I grew up among men. I'vegot three brothers. I then went joined
the neighbor reserves for a bit,worked in a boarding school for a bit
(03:01):
with young men as a housemaster.So I spent a lot of time around
men and young men especially, Andyeah, as I said, my senses
that guys need help, but thatis hard to find. And also true
male connection with each other is alsoquite rare. And so there's this feeling
around trying to do something. Andso this wilderness experience what we call the
(03:23):
Extreme Character Challenge and XTC was born, and the idea from that was a
taking men into the wilderness for amind body of sole adventure. So it's
a bit like when you take yourcar for an mot you have it checked
out by the guy in the garage, and says look or the or girl
whatever whoever it is, says,look at you. Your fan belt needs
(03:44):
changing or your oil filter. Soyou know something I don't know. But
when I go I often have noideas as the car seems fine, and
then someone says, oh, thisis going to be a problem for you
if not now, in a fewweeks or months time. And often again
I think it's humans. We canbe a bit like that, where there's
areas of our lives that if they'renot addressed, there'll be a problem for
us in a few weeks or monthstime, and so we need someone who
(04:08):
can help us diagnose. But againgoing back to the issue of men not
really being that willing or able oropen for challenge or some kind of confrontation,
men often shy away from that experienceby hiding and pretending faking, when
actually just some times to get awayin the wild would help us uncover who
we really are. And also,this experience is physical, and we often
(04:30):
need physical challenge. We love physicalchallenge. We're just telling me Finanther,
you've just done some epic challenges weekend, and you're you know, you're a
sort of superhuman guy. I'm notlike you, I'm not able to do
all those things. I'm just anordinary guy who needs to be kept accountable
for my health and well being,for my physical state. And so having
a physical challenge is good for me, something on the horizon that I can
(04:54):
sort of train for but also justkeep an eye on and watch out for.
But then there's that other element ofthe moral of what's my moral temperature?
Like, so I might be feelingphysically fit or physically weak, but
what am I like in my moralvalues? Am I paying my taxes?
Am I trying to steal things?Am I trying to hide stuff? Am
I lying? Or am I ableto tell the truth? How's my relationship
(05:16):
with things like porn or alcohol ordrugs? How my relationship with other people
humans? Am I thinking about othersmore than myself or mostly about myself?
These kind of things where actually alsoneed to check up there? And there's
the spiritual, this idea of whywe're here. It was the point is
the more to life. And sowe've kind of packaged all that up into
a four day challenge three nights inthe wild. It's pretty tough, it's
(05:42):
pretty challenging. Some people will sayit's the most challenging thing they've ever done
in their life. Some people willsay the most rewarding thing you've ever done
in their lives. We just goon to adventure and see what happens.
So yeah, that's what I do. Take like two hundred guys at a
time, so quite big groups,break them into the groups, so they
make some friendships. And that's obviouslyfrom the way you were in Wales a
(06:03):
few months ago in the rain andthe wind and the wild. Really inspiring.
James, thank you so much.It's incredible to hear that how you
grew up around men and I wascompletely different. I grew up around around
women. I never had a relationshipwith my father. There's not a single
marriage in my entire family, somy whole family is led by these incredibly
(06:24):
strong women, which is great butterrifying at times. So I've had to
learn, like, and I'm stilllearning, like what it means to be
a man. And I've made somany mistakes in my life trying to figure
out what that means, like pursuingpower or pursuing popularity or money, trying
(06:49):
to think that that's the thing thatwould make me a man, and made
so many mistakes I went to prisonwhen I was seventeen and rehab at nineteen,
and even after that I started goingto church, but there was still
no No one would really ever tellme what it means to be a man,
or what it looks like, orhow I'm supposed to behave I guess.
(07:16):
I don't know if people just assumeyou should know that. I don't
know. I don't know what peoplethink. But no one ever told me
or taught me what it meant.I only got my example from from movies,
I guess, or from or fromthings that my mom would say,
but that her perception was skewed,and so I no one ever taught me.
(07:36):
And I've been on this journey nowover the past year or so to
really figure out what it means,because I have a group of men around
me that I'm kind of investing inand I don't think and I don't think
anyone's ever told them, and Idon't think many people really talk about it.
And I want to help. Firstof all, I need it for
(08:01):
myself so that I can one day'dbe a good father. One, they'd
be a good husband, one,they'd be a good role model in society.
But also so that I can giveit to others, so that others
can do that and they can giveit to their children and their sons.
So all of that to say iswhat do you think like the role of
a man is? Or what doyou think if yeah, what do you
(08:26):
think the role of a man is? Let's start there. Let's go back
a step to what you just said, which is really important. I think
half the problem is that it hasto be intentional. This transfer of masculinity
has to be an intentional action overa period of time, and often men
are very guilty of being unintentional,like it just happens. You know the
(08:48):
amount of guys you know who'd belike, oh, yeah, sorry,
mate, that just happened earlier.I don't know why that happened, or
yeah I didn't mean for that tohappen, but it happened, or I
don't know how that happened. There'sthat kind of thing around. Guys often
abdicating respond with you moving back fromresponsibly it wasn't really me. There's a
line which someone said which is man'sfirst sin is passivity. It's like sitting
back and doing nothing about a problem. And so the first thing about masculine
(09:11):
is I think it has to betransferred intentionally, like we have to be
deliberate about it. And for ourancestors there would have been like these rights
of passages, so there would havebeen a moment where the boy becomes a
man, and the other men aroundrecognize that moment and call it out and
say this is it. And whatwe tended to do now these days is
like transfer that to be like anage based thing. So you're sixteen,
(09:35):
so hey, now you can smokeand have sex. Now you're seventeen,
Now you can drive. At eighteen, now you can drink. And these
are kind of the UK laws,and so now I'm going to give your
first pint and eighteen, Well done, son, you've become a man.
But if you think about it fora moment, these are ridiculous things that
we're offering young men. There's beinga badge of masculinity to be able to
(09:56):
drink, smoke, dag drive.It's like these are the most superficial,
base value things that anyway most kidshave already done. So there's nothing actually
added. There's no male virtue ontop of that. And what I think
we have to do is be reallyintensial about what we think masculinity is.
You said your language was, sowhat's the role of a man? And
(10:20):
I think it's interesting I would stopthat with that word role, and so
immediately we put like a job titleonto it. I don't know if there
is a role of a man,because I believe that whatever your role is
is a man's role. Whatever myrole is is a man's role. So
I could be somebody interested in flowerpressing, or you know, poetry,
or playing guitar, or weightlifting orbeard trimming. These are all roles of
(10:43):
men if men do them. Thepoint is, I think it's not so
much the role of a man,but it's what it means to be a
man. And I think something aboutmasculinity, which is about being, and
in that being is the bit youwere talking about about the security of a
male presence, which you didn't have. And one of the things that is
natural in their nature is just default. And you know, across the world
(11:09):
is consistent is that male physical formsare bigger than female physical forms. So
there's something about having a bigger formin a permanent presence or this bigger physical
form, and when bigger physicality comes, the opportunity or the possibility of being
stronger to lift something, to movesomething, to hold something, or to
hold something back. So there's somethingabout masculinergy which is around being able to
(11:33):
do that. But also the wordsprotect might come over that, because a
bigger physical reform is able to justhold back or to push away, or
to hold off or to lift up. So it's a sense of protection.
But also I think linked to that, there's a sense of empowerment. And
I think one of the things wemissed massively in our current society is someone
saying go for it. Most peoplewarn you about the risks, but very
(11:54):
few people will encourage you for thereward. And if they do, say
go for it because they don't care, like yeah you do, you make
you go for it, Do whatyou want, whatever makes you happy.
These are not empowering statements. ThereI don't care statements, I don't care
about you statements. An empowering statementis for you to tell me what your
future looks like and for me tosay I believe in you. I think
you can do that. Here's whatI'm concerned for you. Here's whe I
(12:16):
think it might go wrong. Buthere's where I think you're going to thrive.
Is where I think your skill setsare. And I think there's something
beautiful about that where men do it, especially with other men, because what
it basically says, we believe inyou, we're for you, and we're
cheering you on, but also inthat sense of we're not blind either to
the mistakes. We're not blind towhat's going to stop you or happy you,
(12:39):
but we agree, we approve,and so I think there's something about
that in masculinity too, if youlike, men and women can both be
masculine and feminine in different areas.So I think femininity, by contrast,
is the more nurturing side. ButI think we have stacks of nurturing going
on in our society. We havelots of careful don't worry, I'll look
after you. It'll be all right. We've got this insurance in place,
(13:01):
that protection plan, the police willcome, the ambulance will be there.
Don't hurt yourself. All of thatis very common in our language. Don't
step out too much. What wedon't really hear is go for it.
I believe in you, and I'mfor you. I'm with you. I
know what you said about not puttinglike a job title next to it.
Like I did about the role ofthem, but what does it mean to
(13:22):
be a man? And you mentionedkind of strength, empowerment, protection,
uh, and and because I thinkthe role, yeah, whatever role a
man's doing, if a man's doingit, it can be a man's role.
So that's a good way of thinkingabout it. And that we also
even as men have also feminine attributestoo at the same time that they're both
(13:46):
combined. It's not just so soone way. Well, I was going
to ask you, so if ifif if kind of like being a man
includes those things like empowerment and strengthand maybe providing and protecting and those things.
What I don't know if you thinkthis is true or not, But
do you why do you think thatsociety has has that's kind of do you
(14:13):
or let me particulately this way,do you think that society has has been
has tried to put men down orput masculinity down. And if so,
in what way? No, Ithink men have put men down. We've
done it ourselves. Let me justthink a step back as well. When
you're talking about strength, I alsothink strength is weakness, So I you
(14:35):
know, let's not assume that mysummary of masculinity is all like the best
bits of this kind of houha.Don't worry. I'm here to save you.
I'm out of all of your problems. I don't believe that's true masculinity,
but I believe true masculinity is someoneembodying empowerment but also a self awareness
that they're aware. Strength is meknowing what I can do, but also
(14:58):
knowing what I can't do. Sowe talk about physical strength of being strong,
well, we're all You're much strongerthan me. We're all in different
strengths. You can lift things thatI can't. One of my great strengths
is to know I can't lift that, but Fernando can, so I'm going
to ask Fernanda to help me.Another great strength for me to know I'm
not very good at this, sosomeone else could do it form me or
(15:18):
with me, and I could askfor help. Another great strength is to
know that I'm not very sensitive inthis moment, so to ask somebody else
who's more sensitive than me to helpme be sensitive. These are fantastic strengths.
And I think if we had toyour current question, which is what
society had done about masculinity, theproblem is men have let themselves down for
hundreds of years by being selfish.I believe that to most humans are pretty
(15:39):
selfish, it self oriented. There'sthis idea. Sorry, as Lewis said,
humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less.
And I think most of us coulddo with thinking of ourselves a bit less.
Like does it really matter today whatI really think about, what needs
to happen at every five minutes?My political views really matter? Am I?
(16:03):
Am I really that hungry today?Like starving? Or am I just
a bit peckish? We kind ofput ourselves and said, oh I'm finished,
I'm starving. Oh I need this, I want that, I think
this. Most of the time,we don't really know much about what we're
talking about. So if we thoughtwere less of ourselves, then sorry,
thinking less selfishly so less about me? Not? But I'm worthless. I'm
(16:27):
actually worth a huge amount. Butthat doesn't mean that everything I say is
fantastic. So I think men havedone themselves down by abusing the position that
they've had the power they've had.But at the same time, that's not
the fault of young men. That'sthe fault of me and my fathers and
forefathers, and many generations. Sothere's a problem we have right now,
which is that we're tending to blameyoung men for the sins of their forefathers.
(16:51):
And I think there's a risk inthat. And if anyone listening,
if you know a young man andthe chances of all of us, you
need rids really to ask yourself questionsto what aspiration or hope does that young
man have if we've taken away fromhim the virtues and value that his father
messed up on because of his father'smess up, I think that's a real
problem for our young men. AndI'm furious about it because I've got sons,
(17:17):
and my sons are beautiful. They'rekind and empathetic where I wasn't when
I was their age. They're gentleand sensitive where I wasn't. They're understanding
and full of a kind of broadview of life that I was narrow.
But they're going to be fantastic humans. And yet, if their gender disqual
disqualifies them because I was a bitof a moron, or I was sexist,
(17:38):
or I was misogynists, that's nottheir fault. And so we need
to give him a chance. Andmy view is that that's what society is
not. They could at is asecond chance for men, and I think
what it needs now as men tostep up. But these kids can't do
it on their oad. They can'tjust suddenly appear in the space because they've
had no role model. Because fora long time they've been told to shush,
(18:00):
stayed quiet. It's not your space. To think you've had your time,
And the difficulty of them is theyhaven't, and so they really now
the risk we've got with social mediainfluencers. We all know one or two
who are coming online and empowering thenagain, but they're empowering them with this
kind of violent message of rise upand fight back. My viewer is right,
(18:22):
just rise up. You don't haveto fight anyone, rise up and
just take your place. In myexperience, healthy masculinity is welcomed wherever it
it's seen. I know loads ofexamples of it's actually everywhere. There's some
fantastic heroes out there. The mediawants us to believe that, you know,
we're pitted against each other, andsome parts of media wants to believe
all men are a risk, adanger, society need to be locked up.
(18:44):
Others would want you to believe thatmen you know are outdated, or
that there is no such thing asmasculinity. These are all lies. But
we don't have to believe that.We can just live in a different way.
But I think it's about that livingin that way with authenticity, which
means being actually who you say youare, not just you know you know
who you want to be, butactually being who you say you are authenticity.
(19:06):
To me, it's about being thereal deal. It's about being aware
of what others expectations of you area meeting those where that's healthy. So
if my sons want me to betheir dad, the best thing I can
do is to be a father tothem. It's not to say, well,
actually I want to be your mother. They already have another mother.
They need a father, So asa man, I need to step into
my role as a father. Mywife wants a husband, and so I
(19:30):
need to be a husband to her. Whatever that looks like. She and
I can negotiate that. Maybe ifsomebody comes to attack my family, she
is the one that leaps forward todefenders. But there's no issue. Is
the problem. I can be athome who vacuuming the floor? These roles
are ridiculous. That's not what makesme a man. What makes a man
is when she says to me,will you do what you say you do?
And I say I'll do that.That for me is a masculinity.
(19:52):
And then I say to her,go for it. I'm for you.
How can I empower you? Howcan I protect you? How can I
most support you? Never when I'veasked those questions, if she said to
me, I wish you wouldn't supportme in this way. I wish you
wouldn't empower me like that, youknow, M Yeah, so I So
what we're hearing you say is Isaid what I asked, what what do
(20:12):
you what do you think cultures?And you said was it's not culture's fault.
It's men's fault, men who haverefused to stand up and and take
their place and and and be men. And then you then you were saying
how that we shouldn't blame young mennow for the sense of their fathers or
their forefathers, because they're not givingmen a chance right now. And then
(20:34):
I was going to ask you whatdo you think we should do to to
help encourage men to and to bemen? But I think you answered it
by saying, well, men justneed to rise up. They don't need
to listen to some of the peopleon social media who are saying rise up
and fight back. I heard yousay that they don't need to fight anyone.
They just need to stand up andbe men and and and serve and
(21:00):
and protect and yeah, you know, do the things that that we were
saying that they should do, whichwhich I think is really interesting. So,
James, I was going to askone more thing, if if h.
One of the things that we talkabout here is about failure and what's
your what's what's what does what doeslike failure mean to you? And what's
(21:23):
been one of your biggest failures?And how have you changed as a result
of that? Well, that's abig question. Let me just take a
step back, you don't mind justto summarize in two words for your previous
statement of what it how do webe a man more effectively? I think
there's two words that really help withthat. One is take responsibility and the
other is to find balance. Sothe words are balance and responsibility. This
(21:45):
idea in life that actually you needto get your life in balance, but
also take responsibly. Don't be avictim, don't winge about what has happened
to you all the time and allthe problems take response for any more you
can. I've actually just read abook called Sex, Drugs and Responsibility.
It's the Journey to becoming an authenticMan. And this is the idea of
the book is balance and responsibility.But to your question, failure the way
(22:07):
I see it, yeah, isthat from your Is that from your book?
Did you say? Yeah, justreading a book called Sex, Drugs
and Responsibility, The journey to becomethe authentic man. Let me tell you
about failure. So, first ofall, I think that I rephrase a
little bit around failure. I failall the time, but I don't always
(22:32):
see failure as being a problem.So I don't know if I remember failures
in that way. I've messed upat loads of ways. One of one
of my biggest regrets in life isspeaking without thinking, especially betraying friends confidences
by normally to try to try andbe cool or to try and fix things
(22:52):
or to make things go in myway. And there's been a couple of
times, specifically, I mean it'shappened a lot, but specificicularly where I've
broken very deep friendships by speaking thoughtlesslyand so one of my big big weaknesses
failures is being thoughtless. The otherthing is linked to it, it's being
(23:15):
not very gentle so careless with theimpact of me. I always want to
try and be a gentle man,but sometimes I can be too much in
a room or too much in whatI say, and the thoughtlessness and carelessness
of that, I often forget whatit feels like for the other person or
(23:36):
for the other on the other side. I mean, So those are the
key failures. There are areas thatare failing regularly. But let me just
say the reason I think it's differentis that I also feel like that's in
those failures. I think like this. Imagine you fall over into mud and
your face down in the mud.Well, the instinct is to leap up
out of the mud and to dryoff, like clean off as quickly as
possible, get all the mud offme, and then carry on as I
(24:00):
was before. My view of failureis like when you're falling in the mud
that actually you just sit in themud for a second. You find that
people gather around and you connect withpeople in the mud far better than when
you're cleaned off. So if Isit in the mud and someone else walks
past and ah, what's up?I fell over? And I sat and
falling in the mud, and Isaid, well, do you want to
(24:22):
hand out the mud? Yeah?I love can you? Would you help
me? And they might help meup? And they get it muddy as
well as the process. And thenand then they said, I had it
happen. I tripped over and myshoes too big, or I'm careless or
I was reckless. Well, well, look, I'm I can help you
not trip over next time. Andwhat would actually happen is if I sat
in that mud a bit longer,I build connections with people or find out
(24:42):
stuff about myself or others that wouldbe so much more deep and wonderful than
if I just leap up as quickas possible and try and dry myself off
and wash myself off and run awayfrom failure. And I think as humans
we often allow each other to dothat kind of fir process of quickly clean
off and wash off and then comeback when you're clean less, carry on
(25:03):
with life, or I won't.I'll look away while you're having in a
balancing moment, or I'll be inthe next room ready for when you're finished.
And my view is actually what weshould become more accustomed to is just
saying, oh, you're in themud, what do you want me to
do? How can I help you? How can I be of use to
you today? Is there anything youneed? Can I kind of sit in
the mud with you for a bitand then we can both get up and
we can both want to and wedon't need to wash too quickly because loads
(25:26):
of people are covering mud. Andactually the more mud we have, and
that's the more human we are.So there's something about that that I think
we I try not to run awayfrom. And so I am a lot
of a failure, but I alsosee those as being my times where were
not successes, but times where Ilearn the most and times where I grow
the most. Really good, Thankyou so much, James, And it's
(25:48):
been so great talking to you,talking to you about masculinity, what it
means to be a man and talkabout failure. Tell us a little bit
about your books so that we cango get it and when's that coming out?
Thanks Bai. You didn't know I'vewritten one. So this isn't some
sort of stitch up, but it'sliterally being launched at the mode we think
we're going to just pump it outthrough Amazon. But it's written with a
(26:08):
friend of my Mile's Dylan, andwe've written a book. The title is
Sex, Drugs and Responsibility Being theAuthentic Man, and Miles wanted to call
it being a Solid Bloke or theRough Guide to Becoming a Solid Bloke.
The idea is like just we needto help each other to be the man
we want to be, but someof that will need to be written down.
(26:29):
I think it asked what I thinka real man is like, generally
say, I think three things,particularly that a real man is someone who
could admit when they're wrong, tosay sorry and ask for help. And
I think also there's a linked upbit to that, which is a guy
who knows where he's going. Andso the book is a bit about that.
It's a bit about saying, well, what does it look like to
admit when you're wrong? What arethe problems there, what are the complications
there, what are the beauties ofthat? How do we say sorry?
(26:52):
How do we do that well?And how can we ask for help?
What kind of help do we need? Where we're going to find help?
And then finally, what does purposelook like for us? Man, what
does it look like for us tostep into this idea that we do have
a role in society is vitally importantand I think one of the great sadnesses
of our time is the absence ofpositive male role models for men and women.
But the reality is it doesn't happenby accident, and you can't just
(27:15):
magic it up or wish it onyourself. It requires hard work and effort
and mostly it's it's a it's akind of dirty, dark work and where
no one's watching, But it's onethat when the moment comes for the men
to step up, that it's beautifulwhen guys do. So that's kind of
the book, but that's also mylife. That's really what I'm about.
(27:36):
And I'm grateful to talk to you. I think you're one of those guys,
and I see what you're doing andI think it is it's all part
of it. Oh, James,Well, it's been so wonderful to talk
to you today again. And I'llsee you in Scotland for the next XEC.
And when when's the date of yourbook? When does it get released
on Amazon? Do you know yet? We're going to We're going to try
get out. Yeah, in Decembertwenty tray through December twenty twenty three,
(28:00):
and it's sex, drugs and responsibility. Yeah, becoming the authentic man.
It's like a whole time sex,drugs and responsibility, becoming the authentic man.
All right, Well, I hopeeveryone goes and gets that. James,
It's been so wonderful speaking to you, and I'll see you soon,
my friend. Thanks Bunny, byeeveryone. Thank you so much for joining
(28:21):
me today. I can't wait tosee you next time. Remember to leave
a review, let me know whatyou think and if you need help implementing
anything we've discussed, or you justwant to say hello, feel free to
email me at Fernando at London's Leadershippodcast dot com. Until next time,
remember to live and lead with loveevery day,
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