November 28, 2022 • 23 mins
Here to talk about their new book, Leading with Care in a Tough World: Beyond Servant Leadership, Bob and Phil talk to us about some interesting facts about why leading with care is so important. In a world where only 15% of employees are engaged with their work, leaders need to find ways of reaching the other 85%. Maybe in our technological hustle world we've forgotten what or who gets the job done. At the end of the day we're all people and as it turns out, treating each other with kindness, respect and compassion, is the true way to be a successful leader.
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(00:00):
Whether you believe it or not,you are a leader in your everyday life.
Whether it's within your family, inyour work environment, or even online,
you can and will affect change inthose around you. Join me in
conversation with authors, professors and leaders, so together we can learn all things
regarding leadership and life. I'm yourhost Ferananda Carrillo, and welcome back to
(00:22):
another episode of London's Leadership Podcast.Hello everybody, welcome back to London's Leadership
Podcast. Today we're going to lookat how we can lead with care in
a tough world and we're going tospeak today with Bob and Philip and why
don't you guys tell us what isthe philosophy behind your book Leading with Care?
Sure, thank you, Fernando,We're happy to be with you today.
(00:46):
Philosophy of the book is that theidea of caring is not a term
that's often used in leadership circles.There are other terms that are used,
but caring is not. But wethink it's so important and it has to
do with the ultimate engagement of peopleand what inspired us to write this book.
In the months before the pandemic started, we began doing the research and
(01:11):
we came across some very stunning statisticsabout employee engagement, people engagement, and
Gallup came out with some statistics thatcan be summarized in the following way.
They said that in their research,fifteen percent of employees and organizations are truly
(01:34):
engaged. Only fifteen percent, whichis really quite shocking, actually, and
seventy percent of employees said they wouldwork harder if they felt more respected.
And seventy percent leader of people saidthat their leaders didn't have the communication skills
to lead. And we put thoseall together, seventy and seventy and think
(02:02):
about the contribution loss from people whofeel that way, and the opportunity to
improve productivity and results and job satisfaction. We thought that was right in the
center of this idea of caring leadership. And if leaders cared more about their
(02:23):
people, and we'll talk to youabout what that means, that would improve
those statistics, and if we couldmove them just a little bit, the
performance and productivity and contribution would increasein amazing ways. That's really good.
Thank you so much for sharing thephilosophy behind the book. I think it's
(02:45):
crazy to think that only fifteen percentof people are truly engaged and I hate
it. I hate seeing that inteams and organizations and things that I'm involved
in, because I want people toflourish. I want people to make a
difference. I want people to feellike what they're what they're taking taking part
in, is contributing to to makingpositive change in some way in some aspects.
(03:07):
So I think leading with care issuper important. And and the first
thing I think of is that Ijust I just think, I don't I
wonder if anyone thinks that, thenif anyone initially would just say, oh,
well, obviously I care for people. Obviously I'm leading with care,
but in practice they're not. AndI and I and I'm sure I'm guilty
(03:30):
of that all the time. SoI just think we should just get into
it. How can people lead withcare in a way that's meaningful, in
a way that's transformative, in away that helps people truly engage with what
they're involved in. What's the firstthing you guys would say? Well,
the first thing I would say isthat leaders have to do a much better
(03:51):
job at coaching. And coaching isa there's an easy word to say,
but a hard word to do,and and coaching means you have to meet
the people that you're working with ata spot where they are and help them
through the problems and the barriers theyface. That doesn't mean you're going to
(04:14):
do the work for them, butthey have points of view about barriers and
other things that are in their way. And the question that I always use
with people in a coaching environment,the most important question is how can I
help you? How can I helpyou through the struggles that you have?
How can I help you through thebarriers that you perceive? How can I
(04:38):
help you learn more about the skillsyou need to have to step up to
the responsibilities that you're facing. Andreal good one on one conversations with people
are so important, where you're listeningto their concerns, responding in an active
way, and allowing them to tellyou where they are at and how they
(05:01):
can improve with some help from theleader. And I think we need to
do a much better job at thatas leaders. And I think you're right.
And the first thing that I canthink of it. I can hear
managers and leaders thinking, well,I'm having my one to ones. They're
in the diary, I'm doing it. I don't see where I'm dropping the
ball here. What would you sayare some of the tell tale signs that
(05:24):
lead where leaders are probably missing missjust dropping the ball with their coaching of
their teams, Like what are thingsthat people do that probably they don't even
realize they're doing. That means thatthey they're not coaching their teams in a
way that's leading with care. Well, I think you can look at it
from outcomes. They're not as motivatedand engaged as you just said. That's
(05:46):
one thing, But if you're lookingat your own behavior, I think you
have to look at and say topick up on the line and you'd said
before, which is extremely important.I think they're leading with care, but
they're really not. And so Bob'squestion about saying, how can I help
you if you're not talking about what'sin their world and you're only talking about
(06:09):
coaching on how to be better fromfrom the perspective of the organization, that
I think that's a tell tale signthat you've you've fallen into the trap of
you know, thinking you're leading withcare when you're really not, which may
be a subtitle that we should havewe could have put in there. Fernando.
I think that's really interesting because Ithink I'm just thinking about me,
(06:32):
and I think in my conversation,I think what I'm having the ones once
i'm coaching them, I'm asking themquestions. I'm I'm really I'm interested in
them growing. But but how muchof that is really for my benefit so
that my team succeeds, rather thanhow much is it really for you as
an individual, for your for yourgoals, for your dreams, for you
(06:53):
to just grow. I just wantto serve you, irrespective of how you
serve me. I want to serveyou. It's so interesting just the change
in mindset as you go into thoseconversations that I think are so subtle that
we don't quite realize. Yeah,it's very subtle. And that's the subtlety.
In the book, we talk aboutvisible and subtle practices. It's the
(07:13):
subtle practices and learning that you gotoo far with your own directive discussions with
people and now you're not listening enough. One of the telltale signs is how
much is the leader talking and howmuch is the leader listening? And put
the time clock on it. Youshould be listening at least as much as
(07:33):
you're talking. It's not listening morethan you're talking. Then you're coaching,
and Fernando, I think you couldtake that to the next step because you
could say, if you've got achecklist of things that you got to get
through, if you're so driven bythat checklist and a coaching environment, you're
really not listening to what the otherperson said because you may not get through
(07:55):
the whole checklist. Yeah, that'sreally really good. Okay, So for
all our leaders, the first thingthat we could do to lead with care
is to develop the right coaching rhythmand to and to and to go into
that meeting not trying to take upall the space in the room, but
(08:15):
to be there to really listen toour team's heart, listen to their desires,
listen to really what they need,not not using that time to get
out of them what we really want. Great, So the first thing in
proach improving our coaching rhythms. Whatwould be the next thing that you guys
would say on how we can thesecond thing we are isolated was to robustly
(08:37):
communicate about the things that matter.And the phrase things that matter is strategically
ambiguous because what matters to one groupmay not matter to another group, and
there are things that matter to theorganization, but by melding there too,
by melding what matters to the organizationas well as what matters to the individual,
(09:00):
which is why we started with thecoaching. I think that's where the
magic occurs, and the magic occurswhen you can synthesize what the desires of
the individuals are with what the desiresof the organization are. That's the real
part of the robustly communicating. That'sreally critical. And I always say that
there are two channels that every employeelistens to. The two channels are always
(09:26):
the same. In the United Stateswe have that They all start with W
but I call them w I FMand wi FO. Wif M is what's
in it for me, and theother one is WIFO what's in it for
the organization. So if you're asa leader or not broadcasting on both of
those channels, then you're not reallyleading with care. You're doing something that
(09:52):
stands in the way of leading withcare and not allowing us to empower people
in the powerful ways that we've beentrying we try to out I end.
It's so interesting that you say that, actually, because this is one of
the things that's come up for mequite recently in quite a few conversations that
I've had, and I've noticed thatmore most often, like disengagement happens because
(10:18):
not necessarily because people don't want toexecute or don't want to do the best
for the team or for the organization, it's because they don't actually know what's
expected of them, and they don'tknow they don't really know in detail what
they're like supposed to be doing,which sounds which just sounds crazy. And
(10:41):
I think leaders sometimes say, well, shouldn't they know? I'm sure that
they should. We just assume thatthat they haven't figured out. But it's
our responsibility to communicate, and Ilove how you said it, w I,
I FM and WIFO. It's ourresponsibility to really communicate a communicate so
that they and I think, keepon asking them what have I said?
(11:05):
Do you know exactly what I'm expectingof you until they can articulate it back
to you in a way that's accurate. The key is what you just said,
I think, is to synthesize theWIFM and the synthesized with that with
the WIFO. You have to doboth to provide enough direction for them to
move forward. Both in the organizationsand as an individual. And I think
(11:26):
there's another very subtle thing here.Like we talked about the subtle things with
coaching, Oftentimes leaders get hung upon communicating about what's in it for the
organization, and it's almost a salespitch to the people that suggests that this
is what we need to do asan organization. And the people are sitting
(11:48):
in the audience or on the podcastor however they're consuming this thinking, well,
okay, I can get that,but is he interested at all or
is she interested in all? Andwhat's in this for me? How do
I engage myself in these organizational objectives? And is there a sensitivity to that
(12:09):
on the part of the leader.And that's where the two together have to
be playing on one another, asPhil said, And it's an example of
how the caring part of leadership comesthrough to the person that is that is
so powerful. And I just Ijust like, I'm just thinking about how
(12:33):
how we can so slightly just reallythink we're doing the right thing, but
really we're actually using these leadership tools. In some ways, I think we
can be deceived thinking, oh,I'm actually doing that, I'm really doing
this to make you better. I'mdoing this to serve you, I'm doing
(12:54):
this to improve the team. Butbut really we're sort of using these things
for ourselves ultimately, and we're notleading with care because we're not actually using
them to improve the lives of thepeople we're serving in our teams. And
I think you guys are hitting thenail on the head by reminding us and
really showing us what these things Ithink might have originally been intended for that
(13:18):
somewhere along the line, we've lostit. If I'm hearing you correct,
you're Fernando. Your articulation of what'sreally at the core of this book is
exactly the tone we're trying to hithere. These things are not difficult,
but people forget to do them,Yeah, and they forget to do them
(13:41):
on the part of the people,and then you lose the engagement. You
wonder why we've got fifteen percent engagement. It's all this stuff we're talking about,
the subtle stuff we're talking about brilliant. Okay, so that's the second
one, and I think we're alllearning loads. What would be the last
thing that you would say, Iknow that as many more in your book
that I'm definitely I'm going to getmy hands on because all of this I
(14:03):
need to learn. But what wouldbe the third thing that you guys would
say, Well, the third thingthat we would say is important is to
manage the pushback conversation. Uh.We call these conversations in the United States
where you say or you have youhave, you have a feedback between the
(14:24):
employee and every man, maybe thesupervisor of the leaders, and and a
lot of times that conversation is nothandled particularly well. In fact, one
of the things that we've kind ofbeen a theme throughout this discussion with you,
Fernando, with this what I wouldcall fau listening or foe you know,
pretend uh caring and pretend uh uhengagement. And what we discovered is
(14:50):
and it was quite frustrating in myworld of the academic world, where there's
a lot of what I call foecollaboration where people would ask questions, but
they would never attain into the answersto the questions, they would never change
anything. And that's that's because thepushback conversation itself is not managed very well
or the feedback conversations very well donevery well. So we have a lot
(15:13):
of discussion in the chapter about that, literally how to handle that conversation in
a way that is meaningful and setsexpectations for the outcome of that conversation.
And the lack of skillful management ofthat probably undermines perception and the real belief
(15:35):
of engagement than anything else that Ican think of that that occurs today in
a modern organization. And I justthink if I could add to that,
I think pushback or the questions thatemployees or team members ask of their leaders,
(15:56):
or the seeming disagreement that they haveif they're brave enough to disagree,
the seeming disagreement that they have comesacross in terms of, well, I
don't agree with what you're doing.I don't agree with your point of view.
I have a different idea. Andif the leader doesn't handle that well,
he misses the opportunity to understand whatthat pushback could result in in terms
(16:21):
of potential improvement of the idea,and he takes it as an or she
takes it as an affront and adisagreement, and it can end up in
an argument as opposed to getting therichness of the idea or the pushback out
of the conversation to improve the situation. And it's another one of those subtle
(16:41):
dynamics that we turn things into argumentswhen we ought to turn things into listening
experiments where people can benefit from theoutcome. I think that's I think you're
absolutely right, and I think thisis one of the things that you're right.
I think mostly to struggle with thesepushback or feedback conversation. So really,
briefly, let's just pretend you're callingme in for a feedback conversation.
(17:04):
How would you even just start itoff? Because I think we already start
them off on the wrong foot.Let's Philip, Let's say you're calling me
or Bob, You're you're calling mein. I'm a young team team member
on your team, and you havesome feedback, you have a pushback for
me. How would you even startit to frame it to set the right
tone. Well, well, letme tell you the first thing I always
(17:25):
do in these pushback conversations, andthat is tell them the parameters of what
they can push back on, becausethere are some things that you know as
a leader, like I'm I'm ina classroom and I'd say, look,
I have three or four options here. I'm not sure which you want to
go and one option we're not goingto pursue for X, Y and Z
(17:45):
reason, but these other options feelyou know what what what writer? What's
wrong with that? Must have arobust discussion about that. So one of
the things I've discovered in watching thatis you know, to what is the
what are the parameters of how muchyou can push back and how much wiggle
(18:06):
room there is? So that's that'snumber one, and then number two.
Yeah, I would I would say, I mean, the first words that
I would use is, Okay,we've got this issue that's come up in
terms of a direction or a policy. Tell me what's on your mind about
that. Just tell me what youthink. And that may take a little
(18:30):
coaxing, but you have to pointout to the individual that this conversation is
safe and you're truly interested in understandingwhat their point of view is, and
you're not using words that would beconfrontational or argumentative. You're just trying to
actively listen to understand what they're saying. And then you would ask for their
(18:56):
respectful behavior to let you talk aboutyour own point of view and start that,
get to as much as you canboth points of view on the table,
and then start from there as theconversation continues. Yeah, I think
it's really so helpful just setting theparameters and then just lining up what the
(19:18):
actual issue is, not kind oflike painting a picture, not being kind
of subtle about it, just saying, oh, well, this is the
honest issue, and I would reallyjust want to hear your opinion. But
I think what's difficult for leaders isgenuinely being able to listen. I think
sometimes we go to those conversations alreadyhaving an idea of where we want to
go in our minds and actually usingthis as again another tool to get the
(19:45):
person's buy in, because then theycan say, oh, no, they've
asked for my opinion, so wekind of use it as a tool.
I'm getting their input, but atthe end of the day, I'm still
going to do what I've decided todo, and I think people can feel
that. So I just think it'sso helpful what you're saying to if there's
an issue, definitely listen to whatthey have to say, come up,
(20:08):
tell them where your position is,but be open to change your stance and
not just take up all the spacein the room in those conversations. That's
why we start the book. Thefirst chapter in the book is about embracing
uncertainty, and I think what Bobdoes as an excellent leader is that he
(20:29):
embraces uncertainty. I may be right, I may be wrong, but I
want to hear your position. Andthat's why that core belief of embracing uncertainty
and the richness that can come outof that is that the foundation of great
listening and certainly goes back to managingto pushback conversation. You have to believe.
You can't go in with the ideathat I have all the answers,
(20:52):
and you have to be able toset up a climate. My view is
that pushback conversation is occurrent a climate, and the climate has to be one
that is always embracing uncertainty and onein which you say, hey, I've
been wrong in the past, I'vebeen right in the past, but we're
all going to get through this together. We talked about tell tale signs,
and we talked about telltale signs inthis conversation. For a leader, a
(21:17):
telltale sign is, as you're tryingto listen, it's the little bird,
I'll say, the little bird inyour subconscious is trying to formulate the rebuttal
to what you're hearing. Before allthe words are out of the person's mouth,
you are not listening. That's absolutelybrilliant, and I think on that
(21:41):
we can, we can, wecan end, we can end our conversation.
I think, I think it's beenincredible to really find out how to
lead with care, creating the rightcoaching rhythms, robustly communicate the things that
matter, and manage to push backconversations and handling those conversations. Well,
thank you so much guys for yourtime today, and I hope that everybody
(22:03):
listening is going to be able tobuy the book, Leading with Care in
a Tough World. Where can theycontact you both, Well, we have
a website for the book. It'scalled Leading with Care dot net. So
our own personal information is on there, a lot of information about the book,
(22:23):
endorsements and videos and podcasts. Assoon as your podcast gets aired,
we'll have that on our website,Fernandos, So it's a very rich website,
Leading Withcare dot Net. Well,great, Well, thank you so
much everybody. I hope you goto Leading with Care down there, and
(22:44):
thank you both once again for yourtime today. See you next time.
Everybody on London's Leadership Podcast. Thankyou so much for joining me today.
I can't wait to see you nexttime. Remember to leave a review,
let me know what you think andif you need help implementing anything we've discussed,
or you just want to say hello, feel free to email me at
Fernando at London's leadershipodcast dot com.Until next time, remember to live and
(23:07):
lead with love every day,
Whether you believe it or not,you are a leader in your everyday life.
Whether it's within your family, inyour work environment, or even online,
you can and will affect change inthose around you. Join me in
conversation with authors, professors and leaders, so together we can learn all things
regarding leadership and life. I'm yourhost Ferananda Carrillo, and welcome back to
(00:22):
another episode of London's Leadership Podcast.Hello everybody, welcome back to London's Leadership
Podcast. Today we're going to lookat how we can lead with care in
a tough world and we're going tospeak today with Bob and Philip and why
don't you guys tell us what isthe philosophy behind your book Leading with Care?
Sure, thank you, Fernando,We're happy to be with you today.
(00:46):
Philosophy of the book is that theidea of caring is not a term
that's often used in leadership circles.There are other terms that are used,
but caring is not. But wethink it's so important and it has to
do with the ultimate engagement of peopleand what inspired us to write this book.
In the months before the pandemic started, we began doing the research and
(01:11):
we came across some very stunning statisticsabout employee engagement, people engagement, and
Gallup came out with some statistics thatcan be summarized in the following way.
They said that in their research,fifteen percent of employees and organizations are truly
(01:34):
engaged. Only fifteen percent, whichis really quite shocking, actually, and
seventy percent of employees said they wouldwork harder if they felt more respected.
And seventy percent leader of people saidthat their leaders didn't have the communication skills
to lead. And we put thoseall together, seventy and seventy and think
(02:02):
about the contribution loss from people whofeel that way, and the opportunity to
improve productivity and results and job satisfaction. We thought that was right in the
center of this idea of caring leadership. And if leaders cared more about their
(02:23):
people, and we'll talk to youabout what that means, that would improve
those statistics, and if we couldmove them just a little bit, the
performance and productivity and contribution would increasein amazing ways. That's really good.
Thank you so much for sharing thephilosophy behind the book. I think it's
(02:45):
crazy to think that only fifteen percentof people are truly engaged and I hate
it. I hate seeing that inteams and organizations and things that I'm involved
in, because I want people toflourish. I want people to make a
difference. I want people to feellike what they're what they're taking taking part
in, is contributing to to makingpositive change in some way in some aspects.
(03:07):
So I think leading with care issuper important. And and the first
thing I think of is that Ijust I just think, I don't I
wonder if anyone thinks that, thenif anyone initially would just say, oh,
well, obviously I care for people. Obviously I'm leading with care,
but in practice they're not. AndI and I and I'm sure I'm guilty
(03:30):
of that all the time. SoI just think we should just get into
it. How can people lead withcare in a way that's meaningful, in
a way that's transformative, in away that helps people truly engage with what
they're involved in. What's the firstthing you guys would say? Well,
the first thing I would say isthat leaders have to do a much better
(03:51):
job at coaching. And coaching isa there's an easy word to say,
but a hard word to do,and and coaching means you have to meet
the people that you're working with ata spot where they are and help them
through the problems and the barriers theyface. That doesn't mean you're going to
(04:14):
do the work for them, butthey have points of view about barriers and
other things that are in their way. And the question that I always use
with people in a coaching environment,the most important question is how can I
help you? How can I helpyou through the struggles that you have?
How can I help you through thebarriers that you perceive? How can I
(04:38):
help you learn more about the skillsyou need to have to step up to
the responsibilities that you're facing. Andreal good one on one conversations with people
are so important, where you're listeningto their concerns, responding in an active
way, and allowing them to tellyou where they are at and how they
(05:01):
can improve with some help from theleader. And I think we need to
do a much better job at thatas leaders. And I think you're right.
And the first thing that I canthink of it. I can hear
managers and leaders thinking, well,I'm having my one to ones. They're
in the diary, I'm doing it. I don't see where I'm dropping the
ball here. What would you sayare some of the tell tale signs that
(05:24):
lead where leaders are probably missing missjust dropping the ball with their coaching of
their teams, Like what are thingsthat people do that probably they don't even
realize they're doing. That means thatthey they're not coaching their teams in a
way that's leading with care. Well, I think you can look at it
from outcomes. They're not as motivatedand engaged as you just said. That's
(05:46):
one thing, But if you're lookingat your own behavior, I think you
have to look at and say topick up on the line and you'd said
before, which is extremely important.I think they're leading with care, but
they're really not. And so Bob'squestion about saying, how can I help
you if you're not talking about what'sin their world and you're only talking about
(06:09):
coaching on how to be better fromfrom the perspective of the organization, that
I think that's a tell tale signthat you've you've fallen into the trap of
you know, thinking you're leading withcare when you're really not, which may
be a subtitle that we should havewe could have put in there. Fernando.
I think that's really interesting because Ithink I'm just thinking about me,
(06:32):
and I think in my conversation,I think what I'm having the ones once
i'm coaching them, I'm asking themquestions. I'm I'm really I'm interested in
them growing. But but how muchof that is really for my benefit so
that my team succeeds, rather thanhow much is it really for you as
an individual, for your for yourgoals, for your dreams, for you
(06:53):
to just grow. I just wantto serve you, irrespective of how you
serve me. I want to serveyou. It's so interesting just the change
in mindset as you go into thoseconversations that I think are so subtle that
we don't quite realize. Yeah,it's very subtle. And that's the subtlety.
In the book, we talk aboutvisible and subtle practices. It's the
(07:13):
subtle practices and learning that you gotoo far with your own directive discussions with
people and now you're not listening enough. One of the telltale signs is how
much is the leader talking and howmuch is the leader listening? And put
the time clock on it. Youshould be listening at least as much as
(07:33):
you're talking. It's not listening morethan you're talking. Then you're coaching,
and Fernando, I think you couldtake that to the next step because you
could say, if you've got achecklist of things that you got to get
through, if you're so driven bythat checklist and a coaching environment, you're
really not listening to what the otherperson said because you may not get through
(07:55):
the whole checklist. Yeah, that'sreally really good. Okay, So for
all our leaders, the first thingthat we could do to lead with care
is to develop the right coaching rhythmand to and to and to go into
that meeting not trying to take upall the space in the room, but
(08:15):
to be there to really listen toour team's heart, listen to their desires,
listen to really what they need,not not using that time to get
out of them what we really want. Great, So the first thing in
proach improving our coaching rhythms. Whatwould be the next thing that you guys
would say on how we can thesecond thing we are isolated was to robustly
(08:37):
communicate about the things that matter.And the phrase things that matter is strategically
ambiguous because what matters to one groupmay not matter to another group, and
there are things that matter to theorganization, but by melding there too,
by melding what matters to the organizationas well as what matters to the individual,
(09:00):
which is why we started with thecoaching. I think that's where the
magic occurs, and the magic occurswhen you can synthesize what the desires of
the individuals are with what the desiresof the organization are. That's the real
part of the robustly communicating. That'sreally critical. And I always say that
there are two channels that every employeelistens to. The two channels are always
(09:26):
the same. In the United Stateswe have that They all start with W
but I call them w I FMand wi FO. Wif M is what's
in it for me, and theother one is WIFO what's in it for
the organization. So if you're asa leader or not broadcasting on both of
those channels, then you're not reallyleading with care. You're doing something that
(09:52):
stands in the way of leading withcare and not allowing us to empower people
in the powerful ways that we've beentrying we try to out I end.
It's so interesting that you say that, actually, because this is one of
the things that's come up for mequite recently in quite a few conversations that
I've had, and I've noticed thatmore most often, like disengagement happens because
(10:18):
not necessarily because people don't want toexecute or don't want to do the best
for the team or for the organization, it's because they don't actually know what's
expected of them, and they don'tknow they don't really know in detail what
they're like supposed to be doing,which sounds which just sounds crazy. And
(10:41):
I think leaders sometimes say, well, shouldn't they know? I'm sure that
they should. We just assume thatthat they haven't figured out. But it's
our responsibility to communicate, and Ilove how you said it, w I,
I FM and WIFO. It's ourresponsibility to really communicate a communicate so
that they and I think, keepon asking them what have I said?
(11:05):
Do you know exactly what I'm expectingof you until they can articulate it back
to you in a way that's accurate. The key is what you just said,
I think, is to synthesize theWIFM and the synthesized with that with
the WIFO. You have to doboth to provide enough direction for them to
move forward. Both in the organizationsand as an individual. And I think
(11:26):
there's another very subtle thing here.Like we talked about the subtle things with
coaching, Oftentimes leaders get hung upon communicating about what's in it for the
organization, and it's almost a salespitch to the people that suggests that this
is what we need to do asan organization. And the people are sitting
(11:48):
in the audience or on the podcastor however they're consuming this thinking, well,
okay, I can get that,but is he interested at all or
is she interested in all? Andwhat's in this for me? How do
I engage myself in these organizational objectives? And is there a sensitivity to that
(12:09):
on the part of the leader.And that's where the two together have to
be playing on one another, asPhil said, And it's an example of
how the caring part of leadership comesthrough to the person that is that is
so powerful. And I just Ijust like, I'm just thinking about how
(12:33):
how we can so slightly just reallythink we're doing the right thing, but
really we're actually using these leadership tools. In some ways, I think we
can be deceived thinking, oh,I'm actually doing that, I'm really doing
this to make you better. I'mdoing this to serve you, I'm doing
(12:54):
this to improve the team. Butbut really we're sort of using these things
for ourselves ultimately, and we're notleading with care because we're not actually using
them to improve the lives of thepeople we're serving in our teams. And
I think you guys are hitting thenail on the head by reminding us and
really showing us what these things Ithink might have originally been intended for that
(13:18):
somewhere along the line, we've lostit. If I'm hearing you correct,
you're Fernando. Your articulation of what'sreally at the core of this book is
exactly the tone we're trying to hithere. These things are not difficult,
but people forget to do them,Yeah, and they forget to do them
(13:41):
on the part of the people,and then you lose the engagement. You
wonder why we've got fifteen percent engagement. It's all this stuff we're talking about,
the subtle stuff we're talking about brilliant. Okay, so that's the second
one, and I think we're alllearning loads. What would be the last
thing that you would say, Iknow that as many more in your book
that I'm definitely I'm going to getmy hands on because all of this I
(14:03):
need to learn. But what wouldbe the third thing that you guys would
say, Well, the third thingthat we would say is important is to
manage the pushback conversation. Uh.We call these conversations in the United States
where you say or you have youhave, you have a feedback between the
(14:24):
employee and every man, maybe thesupervisor of the leaders, and and a
lot of times that conversation is nothandled particularly well. In fact, one
of the things that we've kind ofbeen a theme throughout this discussion with you,
Fernando, with this what I wouldcall fau listening or foe you know,
pretend uh caring and pretend uh uhengagement. And what we discovered is
(14:50):
and it was quite frustrating in myworld of the academic world, where there's
a lot of what I call foecollaboration where people would ask questions, but
they would never attain into the answersto the questions, they would never change
anything. And that's that's because thepushback conversation itself is not managed very well
or the feedback conversations very well donevery well. So we have a lot
(15:13):
of discussion in the chapter about that, literally how to handle that conversation in
a way that is meaningful and setsexpectations for the outcome of that conversation.
And the lack of skillful management ofthat probably undermines perception and the real belief
(15:35):
of engagement than anything else that Ican think of that that occurs today in
a modern organization. And I justthink if I could add to that,
I think pushback or the questions thatemployees or team members ask of their leaders,
(15:56):
or the seeming disagreement that they haveif they're brave enough to disagree,
the seeming disagreement that they have comesacross in terms of, well, I
don't agree with what you're doing.I don't agree with your point of view.
I have a different idea. Andif the leader doesn't handle that well,
he misses the opportunity to understand whatthat pushback could result in in terms
(16:21):
of potential improvement of the idea,and he takes it as an or she
takes it as an affront and adisagreement, and it can end up in
an argument as opposed to getting therichness of the idea or the pushback out
of the conversation to improve the situation. And it's another one of those subtle
(16:41):
dynamics that we turn things into argumentswhen we ought to turn things into listening
experiments where people can benefit from theoutcome. I think that's I think you're
absolutely right, and I think thisis one of the things that you're right.
I think mostly to struggle with thesepushback or feedback conversation. So really,
briefly, let's just pretend you're callingme in for a feedback conversation.
(17:04):
How would you even just start itoff? Because I think we already start
them off on the wrong foot.Let's Philip, Let's say you're calling me
or Bob, You're you're calling mein. I'm a young team team member
on your team, and you havesome feedback, you have a pushback for
me. How would you even startit to frame it to set the right
tone. Well, well, letme tell you the first thing I always
(17:25):
do in these pushback conversations, andthat is tell them the parameters of what
they can push back on, becausethere are some things that you know as
a leader, like I'm I'm ina classroom and I'd say, look,
I have three or four options here. I'm not sure which you want to
go and one option we're not goingto pursue for X, Y and Z
(17:45):
reason, but these other options feelyou know what what what writer? What's
wrong with that? Must have arobust discussion about that. So one of
the things I've discovered in watching thatis you know, to what is the
what are the parameters of how muchyou can push back and how much wiggle
(18:06):
room there is? So that's that'snumber one, and then number two.
Yeah, I would I would say, I mean, the first words that
I would use is, Okay,we've got this issue that's come up in
terms of a direction or a policy. Tell me what's on your mind about
that. Just tell me what youthink. And that may take a little
(18:30):
coaxing, but you have to pointout to the individual that this conversation is
safe and you're truly interested in understandingwhat their point of view is, and
you're not using words that would beconfrontational or argumentative. You're just trying to
actively listen to understand what they're saying. And then you would ask for their
(18:56):
respectful behavior to let you talk aboutyour own point of view and start that,
get to as much as you canboth points of view on the table,
and then start from there as theconversation continues. Yeah, I think
it's really so helpful just setting theparameters and then just lining up what the
(19:18):
actual issue is, not kind oflike painting a picture, not being kind
of subtle about it, just saying, oh, well, this is the
honest issue, and I would reallyjust want to hear your opinion. But
I think what's difficult for leaders isgenuinely being able to listen. I think
sometimes we go to those conversations alreadyhaving an idea of where we want to
go in our minds and actually usingthis as again another tool to get the
(19:45):
person's buy in, because then theycan say, oh, no, they've
asked for my opinion, so wekind of use it as a tool.
I'm getting their input, but atthe end of the day, I'm still
going to do what I've decided todo, and I think people can feel
that. So I just think it'sso helpful what you're saying to if there's
an issue, definitely listen to whatthey have to say, come up,
(20:08):
tell them where your position is,but be open to change your stance and
not just take up all the spacein the room in those conversations. That's
why we start the book. Thefirst chapter in the book is about embracing
uncertainty, and I think what Bobdoes as an excellent leader is that he
(20:29):
embraces uncertainty. I may be right, I may be wrong, but I
want to hear your position. Andthat's why that core belief of embracing uncertainty
and the richness that can come outof that is that the foundation of great
listening and certainly goes back to managingto pushback conversation. You have to believe.
You can't go in with the ideathat I have all the answers,
(20:52):
and you have to be able toset up a climate. My view is
that pushback conversation is occurrent a climate, and the climate has to be one
that is always embracing uncertainty and onein which you say, hey, I've
been wrong in the past, I'vebeen right in the past, but we're
all going to get through this together. We talked about tell tale signs,
and we talked about telltale signs inthis conversation. For a leader, a
(21:17):
telltale sign is, as you're tryingto listen, it's the little bird,
I'll say, the little bird inyour subconscious is trying to formulate the rebuttal
to what you're hearing. Before allthe words are out of the person's mouth,
you are not listening. That's absolutelybrilliant, and I think on that
(21:41):
we can, we can, wecan end, we can end our conversation.
I think, I think it's beenincredible to really find out how to
lead with care, creating the rightcoaching rhythms, robustly communicate the things that
matter, and manage to push backconversations and handling those conversations. Well,
thank you so much guys for yourtime today, and I hope that everybody
(22:03):
listening is going to be able tobuy the book, Leading with Care in
a Tough World. Where can theycontact you both, Well, we have
a website for the book. It'scalled Leading with Care dot net. So
our own personal information is on there, a lot of information about the book,
(22:23):
endorsements and videos and podcasts. Assoon as your podcast gets aired,
we'll have that on our website,Fernandos, So it's a very rich website,
Leading Withcare dot Net. Well,great, Well, thank you so
much everybody. I hope you goto Leading with Care down there, and
(22:44):
thank you both once again for yourtime today. See you next time.
Everybody on London's Leadership Podcast. Thankyou so much for joining me today.
I can't wait to see you nexttime. Remember to leave a review,
let me know what you think andif you need help implementing anything we've discussed,
or you just want to say hello, feel free to email me at
Fernando at London's leadershipodcast dot com.Until next time, remember to live and
(23:07):
lead with love every day,
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