Birth Preferences for Pregnant Women to Prepare Without Pressure or Regret with Lisa B. Villani

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The birth plan on paper becomes less and less and
less important when we really center it around that empowerment
and being a part of every decision. Like you said,
there's literally no way that we could know every twist
in turn. And I'm convinced after being in this work
for this period of time, that's intentional. We're not supposed

(00:23):
to know. It's preparing us for that postpartum period.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Before we begin. I want to share something special with
all of you expecting parents out there. As an internationally
board certified lactation consultant, I've seen first tand how a
little planning can go a long way to helping you
achieve your baby feeding goals. That's why I'm offering you
my free ebook. It's called Birth Practices to Support Breastfeeding

(00:49):
and it's a workbook, so check out the length in
the description below. Many people get so confused about creating
a birth plan. The providers tell them, oh, it's not
necessary for you're not exactly sure what to put in
the birth plan since you know you need to be flexible.
So today I'm so excited to bring to you this
episode with Lisa about the idea of creating girth preferences

(01:16):
versus a birth plan. So welcome to Lowe's Lactation Lab.
I'm your host, low Nigrash. I'm an nationally bored, certified
lactation consultant, a certified childbirth educator, and at doula. So
enjoy this episode. Hey, Lisa, so.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Good to see you. Yay, I can't wait to do this.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yes, So, I just want to give a little background
before we jump in today's topic. You were a client first,
and then you came on as like a collaborator and
we did the Twelve Days of Postpartum Christmas, which was

(01:58):
really really fun. Since then, you have started your own podcast,
So tell me a little bit about your podcast, and
then we're going to talk about what we're getting into today.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Okay, awesome. So, Lo, You've inspired me across the board,
I think. So first i'm your client before being a
birth worker myself. Then I'm a birth worker. Then I'm
in the throes of trying to wean and utilizing virtual
support that was just so helpful at the time. And

(02:34):
now I'm following in your podcasting footsteps because I really
think that you were able to get messaging to me
that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to find. And
so I've started what I've called the Empowered Pregnancy Podcast,
and it's my way of getting information into the hands

(02:55):
of pregnant women, women trying to conceive, and postpartum moms
to talk about birth and birth planning and then what
it looks like to have the newborn. Right.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, And you know the fun thing about a podcast,
it's always there. You've recorded the information, and so five
years down the line, if there's somebody who has a
question about something, you can say, listen to this episode.
So it's a great resource for your own clients. And
we decided that we're going to be doing a little
more collaborating in the future. So you know, we're not

(03:30):
going to name how many episodes a month or anything,
because my listeners know I've been struggling to even get
anything out. But I thought that today it would be
really interesting to talk about the difference between birth preferences
and a birth plan. And before I get into my why,

(03:53):
I would love to know when you hear those two words,
because we might be coming at this from different perspectives,
what comes to mind for each of those terms.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
This is such a juicy topic, and I think it's
because it keeps coming up in my work with my clients.
I have actually started to try to remove the word
birth plan from my vocabulary because I think language is
important and the message that I send I want to
be really, really strategic. So I've actually been referring to

(04:28):
the traditional birth plan as a birth map because too
often we get hooked on an outcome, and I think
that that does more harm than good. So when you
say the word birth plan versus birth preferences, for me,

(04:49):
I really want clients and pregnant moms to think about
it as a roadmap with different directions different places. Is
where they may come to a crossroads and have to
make a decision based on a number of criteria. So
I think that preferences are really important because that is

(05:15):
the education piece for me. Why do we want to
know this information because we want to figure out what
our preferences are and getting away from that word plan
so that we can be a little more open minded
and a little more detached from the outcome. That's what
kind of comes to mind right away when you say that.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
I know that when I, eleven years ago, was pregnant
with my first child, and I would use the term
birth plan with care providers. It was almost like they
weren't rolling their eyes, but I got this feeling like, yeah,
this first time mom thinks she's going to be able
to plan out something that's not plannable. But when I

(05:58):
was using those words, what I really meant was, these
are my preferences. And one of the things that I
talk to my clients about a lot is just making
the next right step, and so creating a I would
say even goes as so far as to say a
written birth preference sheet, whether that's typed out, whether it's

(06:23):
drawings or a map, whether it's a vision board of
some sort, or it's tight having a birth preferences sheet
of some sort map. I like that term allows people
to be able to think through what do I feel
about the various options, and if A happens, then do

(06:48):
I want to do B or do I want to
do C? And I know for me over the years,
when I have worked with clients, either as a doula
or now usually as a lactation consultant, people are afraid
to say what their hopes are because if they say
it out loud to other people and it doesn't work out,

(07:12):
it feels like a failure. Whereas I almost get the
attitude from people that if they go into it saying, well,
I'm just gonna hope for the best, that they think
they won't have that feeling of grief or failure if
things don't go according to the plan In air quotes,

(07:33):
do you encounter that at all, Like the not even
wanting to like almost like sticking your head in the sand,
not even wanting to know what the choices are because
you're afraid that if you don't meet your goals then
you'll you'll feel worse.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
I agree with that. I think a lot of moms
can resonate with that. I think that a big part
of the resistance that we feel, whether it's obvious or not,
from care providers is because the plan is written out

(08:07):
in a certain way where it's like, if this doesn't happen,
I'm not going to cooperate or something to that effect,
and that is not the case. So I like to
really hone in on the communication piece. I want clients
to have those preferences and the research that backs those
preferences in their head. So for me, it's like, forget

(08:30):
what's on the piece of paper that's a communication tool.
So then it's one tool. So here's a thought. Oftentimes
my clients will say, I'm so surprised that that my
doctor just like flew in in the last fifteen minutes
of my birth and they weren't really there for the
duration of my labor. And so here I spend all

(08:51):
this time making sure that my specific provider was on
board with my plan. However, I had to communicate that
over and over to all the other hospital staff if
it was a hospital birth. So having the knowledge in
your head as well as on a piece of paper,
I think there's different advantages to having those different scenarios,

(09:13):
But it's about how do you communicate those preferences.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yes, and not just to your providers, to your partners,
total in laws, to your duela, right to your lactation consultant.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
So when I do prenatal consultations, I start out with like,
what are your fears, what are your hopes, what are
you wondering about? What worries you? What are you thinking
in terms of vaginal delivery versus cesarean delivery?

Speaker 1 (09:45):
You know?

Speaker 2 (09:46):
And sometimes I have a client who says, yeah, I
know already that my cesarean is scheduled on such and
such date and these are the reasons I feel good
with that decision. And so then we say, okay, so
now we can focus your lactation preferences on knowing that

(10:06):
you are going to be welcoming your baby into the
world through a cesarean birth. Now, some clients go in saying,
you know, I really hope to have a vaginal delivery.
I don't know what's going to happen, And then we
talk about, okay, so what happens if you get to
thirty nine weeks and you're being told you need to

(10:26):
induce how do you feel about that? And if they're like, eh, whatever,
then we might talk about how that could or could
not impact the postpartum experience lactation, the cascade of interventions
that can happen. And then once they know that information,

(10:47):
then they take that back to their partner and they
say or their doula or their mother and they say, Okay,
this is what I'm thinking about. Let's talk through how
we feel about this as a team, so that then
we are ready for these discussions with our care provider.
And I think it just empowers people to feel more

(11:08):
informed about the options. So it's a way to say
I am going to prepare as much as possible, knowing
I can't control the outcomes, so that by the time
I have my baby in my arms and it's three
months postpartum, four postpartum, five months postpartum, I'm feeling like, Yeah,

(11:29):
I took every next right step as it came, and
I felt empowered because I knew the possibilities of what
could happen.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, and knowing the possibilities, it takes work to find
that education and sort through it and decide how you
feel about it on a personal level. And one thing
that came to mind when you said all of these
questions that you ask, which are so valuable, is my
favorite question, which is how do you want to feel?

(12:02):
And I understand that that's hard to conceptualize, hard to
wrap our head around, maybe and at first, but if
we're not attached to an outcome, and we are more
concerned with that process and what we feel like when
we step away from it or look back on it
as an outsider or as in process, that is really

(12:26):
really important.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
I love that, and I think almost everyone there's a
variety of feelings that people can have. They can feel ecstatic,
they can feel exhausted, they can feel proud, they can
feel uncertain, you know, they can feel supported, they can
feel unsupported. But I think almost everyone who is to

(12:49):
think about this question in regards to the early postpartum period,
they want to feel as if they have done the
very best they could regardless of what happened.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
Absolutely and for.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
Different people that it could be completely different outcomes. But
if they say, you know what, this scenario got brought
to me, and I made the best decision I could
given the information I had, and the information I had
was solid, that's when we don't have to deal so
much with that postpartum grief or that grief of losing

(13:30):
a breastfeeding experience that we wanted to have. I have
plenty of clients who I have to help make a
different choice, whether it be that they are now exclusively
pumping because body feeding isn't going the way they expected,
or they're continuing to body feed but they've decided to supplement,
and most of the time, even if their plan has changed,

(13:54):
they still feel really good because they know how they
got to where they are, and they know that they
have made all the right decisions that they could given
what they knew.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
I agree with that and I think a lot of
what I talk about is asking for what you want
by clarifying what you don't want. So I think that
if I ask the question, how do you want to feel,
you can also flip that if it's easier to say,
here's what I don't want. I don't want to feel manipulated.

(14:30):
I don't want to feel courced. I don't want to
be talked down to. I don't want to be dismissed.
I don't want to be told what to do in
every situation, because as a mom, you are the only
one that knows what's best for you and your baby
most of the time. And so I think that the

(14:52):
birth plan on paper becomes less and less and less
important when we really center it around that empowerment and
being a part of every decision. Like you said, there's
literally no way that we could know every twist and turn.
And I'm convinced, after being in this work for this
period of time that that's intentional. We're not supposed to know.

(15:17):
It's preparing us. It's preparing us for that postpartum period.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Right right, Yeah, that's so true. I was thinking about
when you were talking about, you know, asking the question
how does this make you feel that I could use
that more in my current life with a ten year
old and a six year old, Like, I think about
how often I go through life feeling grumpy towards my kids,

(15:41):
feeling grumpy about getting dinner on the table, feeling grumpy
about the feelings they might be having. And when I
can stop and say, wait a minute, how do I
want to feel as a mom, and how do I
want my kids to feel as a part of my family.
I don't want rumpiness or anger or frustration to be

(16:03):
the primary mood that they think about when they look
back on their childhood. So if that's the way I
want to feel, I want to feel relaxed with my family.
I want to feel engaged with my family. I want
to feel joyful with my family. I want to feel
respected with my family. I want my kids to feel respected.

(16:27):
I want to have autonomy. I want them to have autonomy.
So if those are the feelings I want, what do
I need to change about the way I'm interacting? And
I can give a quick example. It is so easy
when our kids are like doing something that we're like,
oh my gosh, why are you doing that? Like like

(16:47):
bringing in a bowl of mud. Right, Like, let's say
the kids are out in the yard. This is real
life at my house. My six year old is like
the messiest. So let's say she's bringing in a huge
bowl of mud mud. My first response to her could be,
oh my gosh, get that out of the house. What
are you doing? But if I can catch myself, I

(17:09):
can stop. I can say, whoa, you're really working on something.
I can give her eye contact and make a smile
to let her know, like I enjoy you being around.
I'm gonna smile at you when I see you. And
then I still might not want mud in my house,
but the mood might be whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's get

(17:29):
this back outside and you can show me what you're
working on. Or maybe stopping for a second, why are
you bringing the mud into the house. Maybe she has
a plan and I just need to help her problem
solve a different container, or you know, help her figure
out a way that she can so have her needs
met and I can have my needs met. And I

(17:50):
think this is the same with flactation right do or
birth or the postpartum experience. If you want to feel relaxed,
if you want to feel at ease. If you want
to feel empowered, then what are the ways that you
need to change either the way you're thinking or what

(18:13):
you're doing or who you're interacting with in order to
get to that feeling. And those are the things we
want to focus on in the birth preferences.

Speaker 1 (18:22):
I love it. I love how it all threads through.
I wish that I had been asked the question more,
especially in those early postpartum days. I wish someone had said,
how do you want to feel? Because then I would
have been able to say, I'm struggling to ask for help,

(18:43):
but I know that this is how I'm feeling and
this is not how I want to feel, and I
know this is how I want to feel, but I
don't know how to make that happen. And then I
could have been inviting the help in to help me
problem solve and critical think. And I just think that
that is the common thread. Sometimes it takes more support

(19:06):
to get to that answer, and it's a trial and
air so it's not always going to work. And then
we go back to the drawing board, so you know,
getting the lactation support. Joining my fearce Mama Circle for
postpartum New moms like, whatever it is, you shouldn't feel
bad or guilty or shameful about asking for that help.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, it's interesting. I just saw a prenatal clients yesterday
and this is her essentially her second baby, and she
talked about how needy her first child was like, and
so I started to ask, oh, and now do you
think he has like sensory needs and she's like, oh, yes,

(19:49):
you know, he's two and a half. And I was like, yeah,
it's so funny in those early days, until we really
get to know our child, we keep trying to fix them,
and so I like to talk. We talked a lot
about this, you and I because I had a very
similar experience to you sensory wise with my child, and
until I stopped and said, how do I want to

(20:11):
feel with my child? I want to feel connected. I
want to feel like I'm meeting their needs. I continue
to try to like fix sleep, fix feeding, fix you know,
the clinginess. And now I have a ten year old
that still wants me to lay down with him in
bed while he goes off to sleep. And I know

(20:33):
I'm not going to have an eighteen year old wanting that,
And so every night that I laid down with him.
I'm wondering is this going to be the last night?
And in the moment it's hard, But if I think
about how do I want to feel ten years from now,
I want to feel like, yeah, we did it. I
missed those days. They were hard, and I want to

(20:55):
feel connected to my child. So I'm going to choose
this hard thing right now and not every night can
I get there. But keeping the focus on how do
I want to feel now, and how do I want
to feel three months from now, a year from now,
five years from now, ten years from now, is can
really help kind of focus in on what the right
choices are. And the right choices that you make might

(21:19):
be different than the right choices I make. Your right
choice might be you know what, I want to feel
like I can connect with my partner and I will
connect with my child throughout the day. And I Am
not going to lay down with a ten year old
and that's totally fine, you know, but you know what
those answers are going to be until you ask yourself
the question.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, And we don't want to get caught on an outcome,
whether it's prepping for birth or postpartum or ten years
in because then we give ourselves that permission to make.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
That choice, and we can pivot if we need to.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like you brought
up dinner and I would beg to go out on
a lemon sale. Lot of us don't love that we
have to come up with dinner ideas and the grocery shopping.
I mean, I went from loving cooking pre baby to
now every night I'm like, oh the hell am I

(22:16):
gonna make right? So five years ago you would have
known me to make everything from scratch using all these
great nutrient dense ingredients, And now I'm like, takeout would
really put some ease into my evening and I want
to feel chill tonight with my family. And that's just

(22:40):
a pivot that I am making in this season. And
that's okay.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
I love that. I love that. Okay, So as we
I think this is good philosophical way of approaching this,
and I don't actually think we have to get into
the nitty gritty of what it actually looks like to
sit down and create that birth preferences. Because if you
are listening to this and you are thinking I am
pregnant or I am in the early postpartum and when

(23:06):
I ask myself how I want to feel, I am
not there. Then what we need to do is need
to reach out to Lisa for some empowered birth coaching,
and you need to reach out to me for some
lactation consultations. And I think we can both guarantee that
we cannot deliver specific outcomes, but we can help you

(23:30):
get to however you want to feel and help you
pivot at the right times to continue to feel the
way that makes you most happy and satisfied with your
postpartum journey.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
I couldn't have said it better myself.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
Awesome. Well, we'll have all of our links in the
show notes, and this will be going out on both
my podcast and yours, so I think we can add
in anything extra about specific links we can find im there. Awesome.
Thanks so much for taking this time to record with me.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
Thanks Low, It's always so much fun. Bye.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
All right, there you have it, birth plan versus birth.

Speaker 3 (24:13):
Preferences, just because you don't know exactly how your birth
will turn out, and just because we cannot control such
a natural process as birth and all of the scenarios
that might come up, and the decisions you need to
make doesn't mean that you can't think through various scenarios
and what you would prefer to do when various things

(24:37):
pop up to Having those conversations with your partner or
thinking through them on your own helps you to be
more prepared in the moment so you don't feel like
anything gets taken from you.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
With that being said, if you have any questions about
crafting your birth preferences, you can schedule a prenatal consultation
with me. I would love to see your name pop
up in my EMUs

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