November 21, 2024 • 26 mins
This is a must listen episode! Elissa Strauss brings to the podcast her deep contemplation of all aspects of caregiving.
Elissa is the author of "When You Care", which is described as an “urgent and necessary book” by Rebecca Traister, New York Times bestselling author and we agree.
How do we see care as the huge profound experience that it is?: Care is just as worthy of storytelling, respect, and material support as mountain climbing, and full of opportunitites to engage with the core questions around being human.
Details about the book here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/When-You-Care/Elissa-Strauss/9781982169275
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/love-doesn-t-pay-the-bills--5692861/support.
Elissa is the author of "When You Care", which is described as an “urgent and necessary book” by Rebecca Traister, New York Times bestselling author and we agree.
How do we see care as the huge profound experience that it is?: Care is just as worthy of storytelling, respect, and material support as mountain climbing, and full of opportunitites to engage with the core questions around being human.
Details about the book here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/When-You-Care/Elissa-Strauss/9781982169275
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/love-doesn-t-pay-the-bills--5692861/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello, and welcome to Love Doesn't Pay the Bills, where
we explore the role of family caregiving in the United States.
I'm Lisa Chudy. I am so excited about my guest today.
This guest has written for The New York Times, The Atlantic, Glamour,
el and more, and now she is here. She has
written a book on care and the title of book
(00:35):
that book is When You Care. I'm so excited about
this conversation, and so John, because Alissa Strass is willing
to go there with the whole shebang of caregiving, the beautiful,
this ugly, and scary, the philosophical, and the way that
(00:56):
it touches all those other aspects of our lives. So
let's get into it. Welcome Melissa, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
For having me. I'm excited to talk with you today.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
So let's start with just a real brief introduction to
your own caregiving experiences.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
So my biggest care role is raising my two sons,
Aggie and Levi. There are seven and nearly twelve, and
they do not have any disabilities cognitive or physical. And
just want to clarify now for the sake of this conversation.
And also I did after I graduated college. That summer,
I cared for my mom during colon cancer treatment and
(01:36):
she made it through. She's been clean since. So now
that feels, you know, twenty some years ago. And those
are my two primary care experiences of true ongoing dependency care.
Of course, cares tucked into all of our relationships in
some way, which I'm sure we'll dig into a bit
later on.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, that's a lot of what I'm excited to get into.
Is you know, for me, there is a big difference
between the care is tucked into all of our lives
day to day or are we sure hope it is,
and into being human and being a fully expressed person
in the world. It's one of the things we're really
hardwired to do, whether we want to acknowledge it or not.
(02:15):
And at the same time, we have people, specific individuals
and specific situations from whom extraordinary amounts of care are
asked and where we're not surrounding those people with care
to them. Yes, so it's it's it's this whole, you know,
(02:38):
very wide ranging field between everything between those just friendships
and how do we, yes, how do we be in
a friendship or a family relationship and people who are
you know, we're almost twenty four to seven, sometimes really
doing active tasks that are medically dependent, that are that
(02:59):
are due to a medical disability or something like that. Yeah,
and really necessary for the other person's survival.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah. And I think that that kind of friendship care
but Kumbayak care call it sometimes and not to produce it,
but the sense that we're all connected, interdependence. I think
that care has gone a lot more attention. And sometimes
people are like, what do you mean we talk about care,
and I'm like, yeah, we do honor that care is
you know, a big part of how we all connect
and relate, and isn't a beautiful But I think the
(03:28):
kind of care where someone is really again that ongoing
dependency relationship, the thing you can't really leave even if
you want to when you want to write, you know
that day by day brick by brick kind of entangled
obligatory care with love, with duty, with you know, exhaustion, frustration,
that kind of stuff. I think we've just don't talk
(03:50):
about it enough.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, and that's what I'm here for all that. Yes,
so you've found that actually not only your own experience,
but in research, there are ways that this dependency care
is actually good for us. So that's not something I've
really talked about here or thought too much about or
acknowledged sufficiently. Parenting in particular is one of the ways
(04:14):
that we enter that real full dependency care type of relationship.
How is it good for the parents?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
So I think it will start kind of practically, you know,
with the data, we'll get into the metaphysical, which I think,
to me is the more important and more interesting piece
that's just been totally ignored forever. So if a parent
or if someone is doing a healthy amount of care,
there are studies that suggest you will you will live longer.
(04:43):
You're actually inflammation can be lower. You may because you
have a sense of purpose and meeting. Your psychology might
be a little bit better. You might be I mean,
I refrain off using the word happy, but you kind
of wake up in the morning with a sense of
belonging and purpose and meaning. Though, of course, so many
(05:04):
in the United States, and when need to say this
over and over and over again, are not kind of
carrying the right amount for them, and the burden is
too big. And if the burden is too big, the
odds of getting these benefits, you know, diminish quickly. So
I want to flag that, like there is there is
research that suggests that air can be good for us
(05:24):
and kind of a basic physiological and psychological sense, but
only when we're properly supported, when it's not a burden.
You know, if you're picking between paying your rent or
mortgage and affording the time and help you need to
care well for a highly dependent individual, like, that's probably
not going to get you to you know, longer life
(05:45):
and lower inflammation. And the reason I know brought this
up in my book is because I think we need
to have a healthy vision of care. I want us
to focus on the burden piece. I want us to
focus on improving conditions for parents and caregivers to the old, ill,
and disabled, but I also want us to have like
(06:05):
a big, beautiful vision of what it looks like to
care and care well and not get stuck in this
idea that cares always inevitably a burden. So that's yeah,
that's kind of the physiological and psychological stuff. Now let's
move on to the kind of deeper, you know, navel gazing.
We might call it peace because this is where I
really think caregivers of all stripes have gotten the short
(06:28):
shrift just philosophically, spiritually kind of what's the meaning of life?
What does it mean to be a human? Who am I?
Who is this? Other? To care for someone who's dependent
on you really pushes you to go really deep with
all that stuff. And we live in a culture that
(06:49):
if you're sitting at a tabla dinner party, yeah, and
on one side, you know someone who just hiked Mount Everest,
and on the other side is a mom who cares
for highly disabled child or some one caring for a
parent with dementia, all eyes, at least my experience of humanity,
as far all eyes, are going to be directed towards
the Mount Everest personal. Let's just call the Mount Evers
(07:11):
guy because he probably is a guy, And let's just
call the parent or oh woman, because it probably is
a woman. Sure, and they're gonna you know, there's this
assumption expectation that when people do someth they like hype
Mount Everest light go on a silent meditation retreat, that
they're somehow tapping into a deeper truth. As far as
I've experienced care and as far as I've spoken to
(07:34):
so many different types of parents and caregivers in all
different types of care situations. To me, the caregiver, the
woman on the other side of the table have that
Mount Everest guy beat in terms of really wrestling with
so many and the kind of like existential questions that
human space. And what was so wonderful about my book
(07:54):
as I got to speak to all these philosophers and
theologians who really take carebiously and take the people who
do it seriously. So you know, to me, there's kind
of the there's the benefits we can track, but there's
also all these rich benefits that really underscore if you're
a caregiver. I mean, you're digging deep into what it
(08:16):
means to be human and I want to hear from you.
And it doesn't necessarily make it easier, but I want
like the spotlight on these people. I want to learn
their wisdom, and I'm so grateful through this book I
get to learn their wisdom all the time because they
have so much to share.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, that's so cool. I feel deeply what you're talking about,
and I resonate. I mean, I've definitely been at the table,
maybe not literally someone who's climbed Mount Everest, but someone
who's had some accomplishment that's far more recognized than caregiving,
and I'm sitting there largely ignored, while this person is
(08:51):
like recounting their experience over and over again and so
therefore developing more meaning I'm sure from it.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And yeah, such a good point.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah, and asking all the questions and getting connections made
to where they can go on their next adventure and
have support for that and and all that stuff. And
I do definitely really feel that aspect, and I feel that,
you know, there are a lot of things personally that
I've learned from caregiving that are super important about our
(09:23):
human interdependence, about how deeply social animals humans are, and
the fact that we all of us have strengths and weaknesses.
We'd like to to put people in all these boxes.
And you're the caregiver or you're the care recipient. Yeah,
and really pretty much everybody is some of both, and
(09:46):
we don't see the full humanity of each person, you know,
on whichever end they fall. It's definitely these are important
conversations to start to have it. I'm glad that you're
opening up so many of them, and there's so so
many places we could go from there. I think this
is related to your concept of the glass door. How
(10:08):
do we make sure that caregiving is seen for that
learning experience it is and that deeply important experience that
it is.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, so, I mean I think it may sound small,
but it's actually big. Like we have to ask people
their care stories. Let's make care stories a thing. You know,
it's not really a thing and it can happen. One
oh one. I want everyone who does care in some fashion,
but particularly those and intensive care situations, to really just
like believe that they're actually interesting. I can't tell you
(10:41):
how many times, and I've written a book on care
people know this, and I'll be in a conversation with
a caregiver and they're like, oh, you don't want to
hear this, so I don't know, Oh it's really not
that interesting. I was like, no, I want to hear it.
I feel like I have to knock three times, you know,
before they open the door to this idea of that
like they're living there's something that's that is hard but interesting,
(11:02):
worthy rich, and I want to hear about the moments
of transcendence and epiphany, and I want to hear about
the moments of struggle and challenge, and sometimes the struggles
yield deeper, more meaningful things, and sometimes their struggles are
just hard and horrible, we don't have to justify them
as part of spiritual growth.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I'm really I am very interested in advocacy and supporting
that part of it, where you know, some people are
going through things that do not have to be as
hard as they are and really require more support around them.
And yeah, that's a lot of my audience is going
to be in that ballpark. If we're going to appreciate
the value that can come out of caregiving for the
(11:47):
caregiver and the wisdom of caregiver has, then maybe we'll
start to be willing to put more more support around
them as well.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, I mean, right, and so you mentioned blasts stories
which I didn't even get to and because I love
talking about the wisdom penticaire for so much at right,
So I think the problem is care is just still
pretty invisible in this country. I mean, it's it's visible
to the degree of like the nice pat on the head,
so good someone's doing it. Everyone kind of knows it's happening,
(12:16):
but really, like deeply seeing the reality of care grovers
to me is like clearly not happening, because if we were,
we would understand that the kind of care reforms that
the activists are talking about aren't on the would be
nice list, are on that have to happen immediately because
people are struggling and like truly deeply suffering in a
(12:39):
long term and a short term way because we don't
have these supports, right, So, how do we make care visible?
And I think part of it is this culture change piece,
this narrative change piece, to really seek care as this big,
profound thing. I would love for you know, your pastor
your rabbi or yman to do sermons on care in
the spiritual challenge and depth, you know, not the it's
(13:01):
so nice someone's doing this, but actually digging. I would
love for a politician to go to church on Sunday,
hear that sermon about care, and then bring it to
you know, his policy making or her policy making Monday morning.
So I think it's, you know, the culture change peace
feeds the political peace. And I also think, you know
about the way women's kind of liberation of was it
(13:26):
aware of care and also kind of ignored the reality
of care as well. So you know, there were feminisms
that were very care aware particularly black and working class
feminisms at the time when kind of wealthier and generally
white women or fighting for the right to enter the workforce,
many black women were like, hey, we're already in the workforce.
(13:47):
We actually would love to be able to afford to
have more time to care well. So you kind of
have these two parallel, somewhat oppositional feminisms in the fifties
and sixties, and as feminism of it really became more
and more about woman getting to be more like men,
the mainstream version of it it was to have the
power and kind of economic security and safety and might
(14:11):
as men do this, you know, kind of woman breaking
that glass c ailing, breaking the barriers to the you know,
kind of right the power and that's wonderful and keep going.
And I have no problem with it. But I have
a and that we can't just fight for a world
and which is it's about women being more like men.
We also have to fight for a world where the
(14:31):
things that women traditionally did behind doors, right behind these
what I call glass doors, that kept woman, the care
that happened in the home, we have to fight for
that too. We have to fight for better conditions to care.
We have to fight for care to be taken seriously
and all the ways we've already discussed. We have to
(14:51):
fight against this myth that what happens behind in our homes,
behind closed doors is not worthy of support from the
p public, from the government. That's silly, you know. It's
the home is in the public sphere, are not that
far apart. The care we give the people who depend
on us absolutely impacts their ability to participate in the
(15:13):
public sphere, right, it also impacts our ability us, the
parents and caregivers to participate in the public sphere. And
to make this really concrete, break that glass doors. We
understand parent caregivers of disabled children need that investment, need
that support. They're going to be able to head out
to the workforce more easily. I mean, if we're just
(15:34):
going to take this on the economic level, there's tons
of research that shows invest a little bit and the
productivity skyrockets because people are going to be able to
work in care. So smashing those glass doors is smashing
the myth that the home and the public is separate,
that the people doing the care inside the home don't
need the support from everyone outside of it, and that
(15:55):
the outside world doesn't benefit from care, because of course
the outside world benefit from care. Cares how we become human,
cares how we survive, cares how we thrive. Also, we
agree that dignity matters. Care is like the brick by
brick by brick by break through which the cathedrals of
dignity are built. There is no dignity without care. So
(16:17):
all these collective ideals and hopes and aspirations of society,
they rely on our care. And we need to understand
that these glass doors are making us think that these
spears to say separate when they've never been separate.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
To begin with, yeah, absolutely true. We're going to take
a break now.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Please stay right here and we'll be right back. Thank
you for sticking around. We continue our conversation.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
I think there isn't a possible listener who can't realize
some way in which someone caring for them helped them
achieve what they have in the wider outside world, or
that in a lot of cases it will be that
really we are giving care to such an extent some
(17:05):
few of us, that is, it very difficult to participate
in other activities in the outside world. And the people
who are receiving care, you know, are able to participate
really to the extent that their care needs are fully met.
So all those perspectives, no matter who you are, like,
care is part of public life, and public life is
(17:27):
part of care as well, and they both do influence
each other. And I think you're absolutely right that we
need to take each into the other. And yeah, and
have a whole different way that we look at productivity, work,
who's deserving of pay or money all of those kind
of questions and what bigger priorities should there be? Yeah,
(17:48):
what could possibly mean more important?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Right? And you know, our whole economics system really makes
care invisible, you know, And there's the kind of sense
of what's productive and what's not and cares Nazi is
productive both kind of on paper or like in our
mind's hearts and souls. Right, they feels like the thing
get to get overweight so you can go be productive.
And then also just do you think about a retirement
(18:11):
system so so security? You know, if you are a
dedicated hairgiver, you are not eligible to participate in our
federal retirement saving system, right, you know, it doesn't you
you're in an eligible versal security, it does not work
for you.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, that and I think I no bugaboo for me,
I would get the statements, you know, yearly or however
often they send them out. Oh you're still not eligible
for any any benefits. I'm going I'm sitting here devoting
my whole life to taking care of another human being,
and when I'm mill or injured or needing care for
whatever reason, like what, I'm just going to be left
(18:50):
roight like I'm right.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
And no unemployment, I mean, no safety net whatsoever. So
you're someone who is doing the work of care, you
might you know, you think it's meaningful. It's not like
it's only about money, but it's also about money because
we need money to live. And to me, it does
it's a mean care and all the kind of sacred
quality of care to also recognize that care puts people
(19:14):
in a deeply precarious economic position. You know, both of
my grandma's basically died in a state of poverty. Absolutely
relied on their children to live. And why because they
were dedicated mothers carevers through their life. That's what they did.
And that's messed up, you know, like there's just you
take a step back, You're like, this is not this
is not a well structured society that we may say
(19:37):
we value care most important, you know, motherhood, most important
job in the world. But if we're literally letting these
people live out their older years in a state of
deep economic forcarity, like we're not treating it like the
most important job in the world. We're treating it like
something we toss a side.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, it's like the least important thing or the like
a cute little hobby or something like.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, exactly, and exactly, it's a cute little hobby. It
isn't that nice? Oh on, are so sweet?
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I know?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
And you know, the care itself is the reward. It's like, yeah, no,
it's like we're big, we're big girls. We can hold both.
Like we know that care, you know, is its own
has its own virtue and against sacred quality. But we
also know that we don't want to be broke what
we do right, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yeah, And I totally agree with the point. And that's
it's really a premise that I am wanting to emphasize
here over and over again, is that receiving pay for
caregiving or being financially supported in no way, shape or
form diminishes or has to diminish the actual love that's
present or the or the the soft aspects or those benefits.
(20:46):
In fact, it's really going to enhance them. And that's
been my own experience once my daughter turned eighteen and
she started to qualify to pay her parents' as caregivers
under state programs. And if anything, we've gotten closer. We've
gotten more clarity around our schedule and who's responsible for
(21:08):
her when and between between the cufflicker givers that she has,
and thats a lot, and we've gotten the ability to
house and feed ourselves. Uh, with me being a heck
of a lot less stressed out.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Right, I mean, you know, think about let's go back
to Mount ever Sky. Right Like, if you're training to
hike Mike, you're doing something like hiking Mount Evers or
training or training the hike Mount Evers, we understand you
need breaks. We understand you need to stop and fuel,
right like, we understand we have a framework for understanding
that these big endeavors require support, they require breaks, they
(21:46):
require rest, they require renewal, and we just don't afford
that to care. We keep care so small and we
kind of you know, keep it like locked up in
this tiny little box and stay it as this kind
of simple thing that we don't realize that it's it's
actually enormous, as we both know, right, and and anything
that big, you need to refuel, you need renewal, You
(22:07):
need a sense of security. You know, you cannot have
any kind of meaningful experience or provide good care if
you are in a state constant stress just doesn't happen.
It's impossible.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah, And on the flip side as well, people, Matt,
average guy as your example, people are not telling them
an everage guy that it's not fair for him to
both get paid through his endorsement or whatever in that case, right,
and also and also to experience inherent joy in what
he does, or inherent sense of accomplishment or meaning or
(22:42):
wonder in awe or any of those things. They don't
see those as incompatible. And yet for some reason with
or people see getting paid as incompatible with the real,
deep felt feeling in it and someone's commitment.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
Right, you know, listen, like, I'm not a policy expert
doing like the best economic way to distribute income or
funds or relief to you know, parents and caregovers.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Like no, I'm not here advocating one specific policy, but
it should just be like, we live in a culture
where life costs money. Yeah, and to make money we
have to devote our time and we're in intense care relationships.
We don't have that time to make money. I mean,
it's it's really not that crazy when you just step
back and just accept the reality that we're the where
(23:30):
society is structured, like you have to spend money to
afford to live, yeah, and you only have so much time.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
You know, are saying that people should do something unpaid,
certainly when it's when it's extensive in a lot of hours,
it's literally telling them you don't deserve to live, right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Mean it really is. And it's yeah, I mean again,
because care happened behind these closed doors. We just we
turned such a big blind eye towards the reality of care.
And again that's why I love breaking the glass ceiling.
But we got to break those class doors and get
ourselves out of a myth that care is something we
can do on our own, should do on our own,
(24:12):
and do not ever need to be compensated for in
one fashion or the other.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah, fantastic. I'm in full agreement. And I also realize
that we have reached the end of our time together.
And so is there any very last parting comment that
we didn't touch on that you.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Want to make you just want to head home again.
That cultural and the political are absolutely tangled up, and
the fight for justice and a better life for people
who care and the people they care for involves both
telling our care stories, being proud of them, expressing them
in all their fullness and complexity, and not shying away
(24:54):
from the tough stuff. Because to get back mount ever,
skuy is not going to shy away from the tough stuff.
You know, then maybe ankled me to advantaged, Like we
have so many contexts for understanding that things that are
challenging are also meaningful and we can talk about the
burden without reducing care. And while we also need to
advocate for these policies that break the glass doors, understand
(25:16):
that care is not something humans were involved or designed
to handle on our own and we need that support.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you for your time today.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And yeah,
be in touch. I'm happy to help promote the podcaster
whatever works for you.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Thank you and for my audience. Please read When You Care.
I found a lot of it really fascinating, and we
didn't even touch on half yet.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
We got to write care back into the history or
the story of humanity. It was written out of the
story of humanity for so long.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
When I got to write it back in, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
I'm Lisa Chudy and this has left us and pay
the bills making family caregiving visible. If you've enjoyed the show,
please tell a friend. Then you and your friend can
both follow the show on Facebook or Twitter and participate
in conversations about caregiving. Thanks for listening.
Hello, and welcome to Love Doesn't Pay the Bills, where
we explore the role of family caregiving in the United States.
I'm Lisa Chudy. I am so excited about my guest today.
This guest has written for The New York Times, The Atlantic, Glamour,
el and more, and now she is here. She has
written a book on care and the title of book
(00:35):
that book is When You Care. I'm so excited about
this conversation, and so John, because Alissa Strass is willing
to go there with the whole shebang of caregiving, the beautiful,
this ugly, and scary, the philosophical, and the way that
(00:56):
it touches all those other aspects of our lives. So
let's get into it. Welcome Melissa, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
For having me. I'm excited to talk with you today.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
So let's start with just a real brief introduction to
your own caregiving experiences.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
So my biggest care role is raising my two sons,
Aggie and Levi. There are seven and nearly twelve, and
they do not have any disabilities cognitive or physical. And
just want to clarify now for the sake of this conversation.
And also I did after I graduated college. That summer,
I cared for my mom during colon cancer treatment and
(01:36):
she made it through. She's been clean since. So now
that feels, you know, twenty some years ago. And those
are my two primary care experiences of true ongoing dependency care.
Of course, cares tucked into all of our relationships in
some way, which I'm sure we'll dig into a bit
later on.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, that's a lot of what I'm excited to get into.
Is you know, for me, there is a big difference
between the care is tucked into all of our lives
day to day or are we sure hope it is,
and into being human and being a fully expressed person
in the world. It's one of the things we're really
hardwired to do, whether we want to acknowledge it or not.
(02:15):
And at the same time, we have people, specific individuals
and specific situations from whom extraordinary amounts of care are
asked and where we're not surrounding those people with care
to them. Yes, so it's it's it's this whole, you know,
(02:38):
very wide ranging field between everything between those just friendships
and how do we, yes, how do we be in
a friendship or a family relationship and people who are
you know, we're almost twenty four to seven, sometimes really
doing active tasks that are medically dependent, that are that
(02:59):
are due to a medical disability or something like that. Yeah,
and really necessary for the other person's survival.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah. And I think that that kind of friendship care
but Kumbayak care call it sometimes and not to produce it,
but the sense that we're all connected, interdependence. I think
that care has gone a lot more attention. And sometimes
people are like, what do you mean we talk about care,
and I'm like, yeah, we do honor that care is
you know, a big part of how we all connect
and relate, and isn't a beautiful But I think the
(03:28):
kind of care where someone is really again that ongoing
dependency relationship, the thing you can't really leave even if
you want to when you want to write, you know
that day by day brick by brick kind of entangled
obligatory care with love, with duty, with you know, exhaustion, frustration,
that kind of stuff. I think we've just don't talk
(03:50):
about it enough.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, and that's what I'm here for all that. Yes,
so you've found that actually not only your own experience,
but in research, there are ways that this dependency care
is actually good for us. So that's not something I've
really talked about here or thought too much about or
acknowledged sufficiently. Parenting in particular is one of the ways
(04:14):
that we enter that real full dependency care type of relationship.
How is it good for the parents?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
So I think it will start kind of practically, you know,
with the data, we'll get into the metaphysical, which I think,
to me is the more important and more interesting piece
that's just been totally ignored forever. So if a parent
or if someone is doing a healthy amount of care,
there are studies that suggest you will you will live longer.
(04:43):
You're actually inflammation can be lower. You may because you
have a sense of purpose and meeting. Your psychology might
be a little bit better. You might be I mean,
I refrain off using the word happy, but you kind
of wake up in the morning with a sense of
belonging and purpose and meaning. Though, of course, so many
(05:04):
in the United States, and when need to say this
over and over and over again, are not kind of
carrying the right amount for them, and the burden is
too big. And if the burden is too big, the
odds of getting these benefits, you know, diminish quickly. So
I want to flag that, like there is there is
research that suggests that air can be good for us
(05:24):
and kind of a basic physiological and psychological sense, but
only when we're properly supported, when it's not a burden.
You know, if you're picking between paying your rent or
mortgage and affording the time and help you need to
care well for a highly dependent individual, like, that's probably
not going to get you to you know, longer life
(05:45):
and lower inflammation. And the reason I know brought this
up in my book is because I think we need
to have a healthy vision of care. I want us
to focus on the burden piece. I want us to
focus on improving conditions for parents and caregivers to the old, ill,
and disabled, but I also want us to have like
(06:05):
a big, beautiful vision of what it looks like to
care and care well and not get stuck in this
idea that cares always inevitably a burden. So that's yeah,
that's kind of the physiological and psychological stuff. Now let's
move on to the kind of deeper, you know, navel gazing.
We might call it peace because this is where I
really think caregivers of all stripes have gotten the short
(06:28):
shrift just philosophically, spiritually kind of what's the meaning of life?
What does it mean to be a human? Who am I?
Who is this? Other? To care for someone who's dependent
on you really pushes you to go really deep with
all that stuff. And we live in a culture that
(06:49):
if you're sitting at a tabla dinner party, yeah, and
on one side, you know someone who just hiked Mount Everest,
and on the other side is a mom who cares
for highly disabled child or some one caring for a
parent with dementia, all eyes, at least my experience of humanity,
as far all eyes, are going to be directed towards
the Mount Everest personal. Let's just call the Mount Evers
(07:11):
guy because he probably is a guy, And let's just
call the parent or oh woman, because it probably is
a woman. Sure, and they're gonna you know, there's this
assumption expectation that when people do someth they like hype
Mount Everest light go on a silent meditation retreat, that
they're somehow tapping into a deeper truth. As far as
I've experienced care and as far as I've spoken to
(07:34):
so many different types of parents and caregivers in all
different types of care situations. To me, the caregiver, the
woman on the other side of the table have that
Mount Everest guy beat in terms of really wrestling with
so many and the kind of like existential questions that
human space. And what was so wonderful about my book
(07:54):
as I got to speak to all these philosophers and
theologians who really take carebiously and take the people who
do it seriously. So you know, to me, there's kind
of the there's the benefits we can track, but there's
also all these rich benefits that really underscore if you're
a caregiver. I mean, you're digging deep into what it
(08:16):
means to be human and I want to hear from you.
And it doesn't necessarily make it easier, but I want
like the spotlight on these people. I want to learn
their wisdom, and I'm so grateful through this book I
get to learn their wisdom all the time because they
have so much to share.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, that's so cool. I feel deeply what you're talking about,
and I resonate. I mean, I've definitely been at the table,
maybe not literally someone who's climbed Mount Everest, but someone
who's had some accomplishment that's far more recognized than caregiving,
and I'm sitting there largely ignored, while this person is
(08:51):
like recounting their experience over and over again and so
therefore developing more meaning I'm sure from it.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And yeah, such a good point.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah, and asking all the questions and getting connections made
to where they can go on their next adventure and
have support for that and and all that stuff. And
I do definitely really feel that aspect, and I feel that,
you know, there are a lot of things personally that
I've learned from caregiving that are super important about our
(09:23):
human interdependence, about how deeply social animals humans are, and
the fact that we all of us have strengths and weaknesses.
We'd like to to put people in all these boxes.
And you're the caregiver or you're the care recipient. Yeah,
and really pretty much everybody is some of both, and
(09:46):
we don't see the full humanity of each person, you know,
on whichever end they fall. It's definitely these are important
conversations to start to have it. I'm glad that you're
opening up so many of them, and there's so so
many places we could go from there. I think this
is related to your concept of the glass door. How
(10:08):
do we make sure that caregiving is seen for that
learning experience it is and that deeply important experience that
it is.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, so, I mean I think it may sound small,
but it's actually big. Like we have to ask people
their care stories. Let's make care stories a thing. You know,
it's not really a thing and it can happen. One
oh one. I want everyone who does care in some fashion,
but particularly those and intensive care situations, to really just
like believe that they're actually interesting. I can't tell you
(10:41):
how many times, and I've written a book on care
people know this, and I'll be in a conversation with
a caregiver and they're like, oh, you don't want to
hear this, so I don't know, Oh it's really not
that interesting. I was like, no, I want to hear it.
I feel like I have to knock three times, you know,
before they open the door to this idea of that
like they're living there's something that's that is hard but interesting,
(11:02):
worthy rich, and I want to hear about the moments
of transcendence and epiphany, and I want to hear about
the moments of struggle and challenge, and sometimes the struggles
yield deeper, more meaningful things, and sometimes their struggles are
just hard and horrible, we don't have to justify them
as part of spiritual growth.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
I'm really I am very interested in advocacy and supporting
that part of it, where you know, some people are
going through things that do not have to be as
hard as they are and really require more support around them.
And yeah, that's a lot of my audience is going
to be in that ballpark. If we're going to appreciate
the value that can come out of caregiving for the
(11:47):
caregiver and the wisdom of caregiver has, then maybe we'll
start to be willing to put more more support around
them as well.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, I mean, right, and so you mentioned blasts stories
which I didn't even get to and because I love
talking about the wisdom penticaire for so much at right,
So I think the problem is care is just still
pretty invisible in this country. I mean, it's it's visible
to the degree of like the nice pat on the head,
so good someone's doing it. Everyone kind of knows it's happening,
(12:16):
but really, like deeply seeing the reality of care grovers
to me is like clearly not happening, because if we were,
we would understand that the kind of care reforms that
the activists are talking about aren't on the would be
nice list, are on that have to happen immediately because
people are struggling and like truly deeply suffering in a
(12:39):
long term and a short term way because we don't
have these supports, right, So, how do we make care visible?
And I think part of it is this culture change piece,
this narrative change piece, to really seek care as this big,
profound thing. I would love for you know, your pastor
your rabbi or yman to do sermons on care in
the spiritual challenge and depth, you know, not the it's
(13:01):
so nice someone's doing this, but actually digging. I would
love for a politician to go to church on Sunday,
hear that sermon about care, and then bring it to
you know, his policy making or her policy making Monday morning.
So I think it's, you know, the culture change peace
feeds the political peace. And I also think, you know
about the way women's kind of liberation of was it
(13:26):
aware of care and also kind of ignored the reality
of care as well. So you know, there were feminisms
that were very care aware particularly black and working class
feminisms at the time when kind of wealthier and generally
white women or fighting for the right to enter the workforce,
many black women were like, hey, we're already in the workforce.
(13:47):
We actually would love to be able to afford to
have more time to care well. So you kind of
have these two parallel, somewhat oppositional feminisms in the fifties
and sixties, and as feminism of it really became more
and more about woman getting to be more like men,
the mainstream version of it it was to have the
power and kind of economic security and safety and might
(14:11):
as men do this, you know, kind of woman breaking
that glass c ailing, breaking the barriers to the you know,
kind of right the power and that's wonderful and keep going.
And I have no problem with it. But I have
a and that we can't just fight for a world
and which is it's about women being more like men.
We also have to fight for a world where the
(14:31):
things that women traditionally did behind doors, right behind these
what I call glass doors, that kept woman, the care
that happened in the home, we have to fight for
that too. We have to fight for better conditions to care.
We have to fight for care to be taken seriously
and all the ways we've already discussed. We have to
(14:51):
fight against this myth that what happens behind in our homes,
behind closed doors is not worthy of support from the
p public, from the government. That's silly, you know. It's
the home is in the public sphere, are not that
far apart. The care we give the people who depend
on us absolutely impacts their ability to participate in the
(15:13):
public sphere, right, it also impacts our ability us, the
parents and caregivers to participate in the public sphere. And
to make this really concrete, break that glass doors. We
understand parent caregivers of disabled children need that investment, need
that support. They're going to be able to head out
to the workforce more easily. I mean, if we're just
(15:34):
going to take this on the economic level, there's tons
of research that shows invest a little bit and the
productivity skyrockets because people are going to be able to
work in care. So smashing those glass doors is smashing
the myth that the home and the public is separate,
that the people doing the care inside the home don't
need the support from everyone outside of it, and that
(15:55):
the outside world doesn't benefit from care, because of course
the outside world benefit from care. Cares how we become human,
cares how we survive, cares how we thrive. Also, we
agree that dignity matters. Care is like the brick by
brick by brick by break through which the cathedrals of
dignity are built. There is no dignity without care. So
(16:17):
all these collective ideals and hopes and aspirations of society,
they rely on our care. And we need to understand
that these glass doors are making us think that these
spears to say separate when they've never been separate.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
To begin with, yeah, absolutely true. We're going to take
a break now.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Please stay right here and we'll be right back. Thank
you for sticking around. We continue our conversation.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
I think there isn't a possible listener who can't realize
some way in which someone caring for them helped them
achieve what they have in the wider outside world, or
that in a lot of cases it will be that
really we are giving care to such an extent some
(17:05):
few of us, that is, it very difficult to participate
in other activities in the outside world. And the people
who are receiving care, you know, are able to participate
really to the extent that their care needs are fully met.
So all those perspectives, no matter who you are, like,
care is part of public life, and public life is
(17:27):
part of care as well, and they both do influence
each other. And I think you're absolutely right that we
need to take each into the other. And yeah, and
have a whole different way that we look at productivity, work,
who's deserving of pay or money all of those kind
of questions and what bigger priorities should there be? Yeah,
(17:48):
what could possibly mean more important?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Right? And you know, our whole economics system really makes
care invisible, you know, And there's the kind of sense
of what's productive and what's not and cares Nazi is
productive both kind of on paper or like in our
mind's hearts and souls. Right, they feels like the thing
get to get overweight so you can go be productive.
And then also just do you think about a retirement
(18:11):
system so so security? You know, if you are a
dedicated hairgiver, you are not eligible to participate in our
federal retirement saving system, right, you know, it doesn't you
you're in an eligible versal security, it does not work
for you.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, that and I think I no bugaboo for me,
I would get the statements, you know, yearly or however
often they send them out. Oh you're still not eligible
for any any benefits. I'm going I'm sitting here devoting
my whole life to taking care of another human being,
and when I'm mill or injured or needing care for
whatever reason, like what, I'm just going to be left
(18:50):
roight like I'm right.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
And no unemployment, I mean, no safety net whatsoever. So
you're someone who is doing the work of care, you
might you know, you think it's meaningful. It's not like
it's only about money, but it's also about money because
we need money to live. And to me, it does
it's a mean care and all the kind of sacred
quality of care to also recognize that care puts people
(19:14):
in a deeply precarious economic position. You know, both of
my grandma's basically died in a state of poverty. Absolutely
relied on their children to live. And why because they
were dedicated mothers carevers through their life. That's what they did.
And that's messed up, you know, like there's just you
take a step back, You're like, this is not this
is not a well structured society that we may say
(19:37):
we value care most important, you know, motherhood, most important
job in the world. But if we're literally letting these
people live out their older years in a state of
deep economic forcarity, like we're not treating it like the
most important job in the world. We're treating it like
something we toss a side.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, it's like the least important thing or the like
a cute little hobby or something like.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, exactly, and exactly, it's a cute little hobby. It
isn't that nice? Oh on, are so sweet?
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I know?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
And you know, the care itself is the reward. It's like, yeah, no,
it's like we're big, we're big girls. We can hold both.
Like we know that care, you know, is its own
has its own virtue and against sacred quality. But we
also know that we don't want to be broke what
we do right, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yeah, And I totally agree with the point. And that's
it's really a premise that I am wanting to emphasize
here over and over again, is that receiving pay for
caregiving or being financially supported in no way, shape or
form diminishes or has to diminish the actual love that's
present or the or the the soft aspects or those benefits.
(20:46):
In fact, it's really going to enhance them. And that's
been my own experience once my daughter turned eighteen and
she started to qualify to pay her parents' as caregivers
under state programs. And if anything, we've gotten closer. We've
gotten more clarity around our schedule and who's responsible for
(21:08):
her when and between between the cufflicker givers that she has,
and thats a lot, and we've gotten the ability to
house and feed ourselves. Uh, with me being a heck
of a lot less stressed out.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Right, I mean, you know, think about let's go back
to Mount ever Sky. Right Like, if you're training to
hike Mike, you're doing something like hiking Mount Evers or
training or training the hike Mount Evers, we understand you
need breaks. We understand you need to stop and fuel,
right like, we understand we have a framework for understanding
that these big endeavors require support, they require breaks, they
(21:46):
require rest, they require renewal, and we just don't afford
that to care. We keep care so small and we
kind of you know, keep it like locked up in
this tiny little box and stay it as this kind
of simple thing that we don't realize that it's it's
actually enormous, as we both know, right, and and anything
that big, you need to refuel, you need renewal, You
(22:07):
need a sense of security. You know, you cannot have
any kind of meaningful experience or provide good care if
you are in a state constant stress just doesn't happen.
It's impossible.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah, And on the flip side as well, people, Matt,
average guy as your example, people are not telling them
an everage guy that it's not fair for him to
both get paid through his endorsement or whatever in that case, right,
and also and also to experience inherent joy in what
he does, or inherent sense of accomplishment or meaning or
(22:42):
wonder in awe or any of those things. They don't
see those as incompatible. And yet for some reason with
or people see getting paid as incompatible with the real,
deep felt feeling in it and someone's commitment.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
Right, you know, listen, like, I'm not a policy expert
doing like the best economic way to distribute income or
funds or relief to you know, parents and caregovers.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Like no, I'm not here advocating one specific policy, but
it should just be like, we live in a culture
where life costs money. Yeah, and to make money we
have to devote our time and we're in intense care relationships.
We don't have that time to make money. I mean,
it's it's really not that crazy when you just step
back and just accept the reality that we're the where
(23:30):
society is structured, like you have to spend money to
afford to live, yeah, and you only have so much time.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
You know, are saying that people should do something unpaid,
certainly when it's when it's extensive in a lot of hours,
it's literally telling them you don't deserve to live, right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Mean it really is. And it's yeah, I mean again,
because care happened behind these closed doors. We just we
turned such a big blind eye towards the reality of care.
And again that's why I love breaking the glass ceiling.
But we got to break those class doors and get
ourselves out of a myth that care is something we
can do on our own, should do on our own,
(24:12):
and do not ever need to be compensated for in
one fashion or the other.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah, fantastic. I'm in full agreement. And I also realize
that we have reached the end of our time together.
And so is there any very last parting comment that
we didn't touch on that you.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Want to make you just want to head home again.
That cultural and the political are absolutely tangled up, and
the fight for justice and a better life for people
who care and the people they care for involves both
telling our care stories, being proud of them, expressing them
in all their fullness and complexity, and not shying away
(24:54):
from the tough stuff. Because to get back mount ever,
skuy is not going to shy away from the tough stuff.
You know, then maybe ankled me to advantaged, Like we
have so many contexts for understanding that things that are
challenging are also meaningful and we can talk about the
burden without reducing care. And while we also need to
advocate for these policies that break the glass doors, understand
(25:16):
that care is not something humans were involved or designed
to handle on our own and we need that support.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you for your time today.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And yeah,
be in touch. I'm happy to help promote the podcaster
whatever works for you.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Thank you and for my audience. Please read When You Care.
I found a lot of it really fascinating, and we
didn't even touch on half yet.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
We got to write care back into the history or
the story of humanity. It was written out of the
story of humanity for so long.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
When I got to write it back in, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
I'm Lisa Chudy and this has left us and pay
the bills making family caregiving visible. If you've enjoyed the show,
please tell a friend. Then you and your friend can
both follow the show on Facebook or Twitter and participate
in conversations about caregiving. Thanks for listening.
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