37: Lips To Lifestyle Ft. Maximo, Evita & Dr. Mel

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
La alla like this.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Hello, and welcome to lifts of lifestyle conversations about the
lifestyle From the Lifestyle, I am the one and only
Orlando Roy aka Orlando AKA.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
To Big Dick, Bad Bitch.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
And sitting right across from me is my imaig Op
Nipple Slip. Sitting right across from me is my wonderful,
amazing co hoste.

Speaker 4 (00:26):
What up, Brooklyn Lou aka well known Tone, Sushia and Waci.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
And we're sitting here with three amazing people that I
literally just met, but I can tell from first glance
that they are amazing. But please introduce yourselves, all three
of you. We're going to have an amazing conversation. I
want to make sure that people know your voices.

Speaker 5 (00:44):
Go ahead, Hello everyone.

Speaker 6 (00:46):
I'm Avida Lavina Loka Sawyers. I am a non monogamy
content creator, educator, coach, speaker, and now published author of
my book, a Polyamory Devotional three hundred and sixty five
Daily Reflection for the Consentually Nominogamus, just released in October,
and I'm really glad to be here and talking about
this with all of you.

Speaker 7 (01:07):
My name is I'm trying to.

Speaker 8 (01:09):
Be far away from.

Speaker 7 (01:12):
My name is Melissa Robinson Brown aka Doctor mel licensed
clinical psychologist, and a bad assery advocate. I help women,
particularly let go of lives that feel very underwhelming because
they've been following too many of societal life templates, step
into their bad assery and feel really good rewriting their narrative.

Speaker 8 (01:31):
M M, dang, I gotta go after all of that.

Speaker 3 (01:38):
Follow up right.

Speaker 9 (01:39):
My name is Maximo Extravaganza. I'm a non binary pen sexual,
first generation Brazilian American creative living in Bushwick, Brooklyn.

Speaker 8 (01:49):
Baby.

Speaker 9 (01:50):
I'm a dancer, model, photographer, and I was just recently
featured on the show Couple to Throttle with my beautiful
partner Ash. So I am the baby of the group
in terms of polyamory, but I feel like I'm excited
to get to share my perspective and how Ash and
I have been navigating this lifestyle.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
Mm hmmm. I love that.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
I love that.

Speaker 4 (02:10):
So I'm gonna start with a Vita you know, Vita
PolyAm coach always.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
It's funny.

Speaker 4 (02:18):
I was reading your devotional and and and I was
thinking to like one a day, you know, I skipped
a few days, and it's some really interesting perspectives. What
about polyamory for you personally? What about it was the
aha moment when you were coming out of the more

(02:38):
I guess typical relationship you may have been in before.

Speaker 6 (02:42):
So we initially got into nominogamy for an opportunity for
me to explore my sexuality because I was at that
time when I first entered it, married heterosexually, married to
a man. But I had never gotten an opportunity to
really flesh out my sexuality because we like met in church.

Speaker 5 (02:59):
It was really strict.

Speaker 6 (03:00):
I'd gotten this narrative that homosexuality is wrong, and you know,
I'm bisexual.

Speaker 5 (03:04):
Never heard that narrative right.

Speaker 6 (03:07):
Right, and so and so I suppressed a lot of it.
And once we came out of that church and we
just begat looser. We got into nominogamy for an opportunity
for me to explore my sexuality, and you know, it
just kind of went from there. So our first like
dabble was we went to a strip club together and
I watched my then husband at the time get a

(03:29):
lap dance and I was just kind of like, Ah,
this doesn't really feel that bad, you know. So and
then it was just all these little incidents here there
we went to a swinger party and then we had
the threesome, and then we did this, and then we
did that, and then before we knew it, we were
in full on polyamory and you know the rest is history.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
So yeah, so awesome. How about you, doctor mel.

Speaker 7 (03:47):
I think we probably had a conversation maybe almost ten
years ago that so I am married to a queer
male and he was not at the time out as queer,
but we had a conversation about ten years ago where
we were like, I think it might be interesting to explore.

(04:08):
We started off as a don't ask, don't tell couple,
which is interesting because you can go through so many
different stages, and then sort of realized that we didn't
like that so much and started exploring sort of playing together.
During that process, he came out as by and we

(04:28):
sort of looked at this as an opportunity for us
both to explore our sexuality, our sexual experiences, and it's
just sort of grown and that we've navigated different things
since then.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, how about you, young human.

Speaker 9 (04:45):
Yeah, So Ash and I originally when we first started dating,
we both identified in our binaries.

Speaker 8 (04:52):
I was a man, she was a woman.

Speaker 9 (04:55):
Through our relationship, we have been able to connect more
with our gender, myself now connecting with non binary and
Ash being non binary and trans being an AFAB individual.
In the beginning of our relationship, I had been primarily
dating men and Ash was primarily dating women right before
we got together, and so through our best friendhood kind

(05:18):
of vetting each other out, we're like, what do we
not want to bring into this relationship that we had
in our previous relationships, And one thing that kept coming
up was feeling trapped or feeling like we don't have
autonomy over our own decisions and what we can do.
And so immediately in the beginning, we kind of just
started our own version of non monogamy where we just

(05:42):
consistently checked in and communicated with each other and put
up different rules and structures. So originally starting the idea
was to stay in touch with our queerness, right, so
I would primarily have relationships with men outside of my relationship,
always just sexual. It was never romantic because we were
primary partners and ASH women. And as we both started

(06:05):
to develop in our security with one another and love,
we started to change dynamics in terms of like how
many we call them das, how many das can you
have a week. Do I tell you before I do
I tell you before the DA or after? What kind
of communication style feels good for us? So we are

(06:28):
we have just consistently started to build upon the comfort
and the security that came before us after being ethically
non monogamous or what we called at the time monogamish separately.
We then got this opportunity to be on this show
called Couple to Throttle, and that is actually the first
time where we started dating someone together. Now not only

(06:50):
are we thinking about being physical with someone else, but
we're doing it together. Because we had never had any threesomes.
You never hooked up with anyone together. It was always
very separate. And so now we're dating and we're having
feelings and like you know, falling for people, but together,
and I think setting up in our monogamish aspect it

(07:12):
allowed us to learn so much that way. When we
went into this experience, we were like, well were we so
afraid of? Like why is this so much easier almost
than doing it separately because we had already tackled the jealousy,
the idea of like compersian and not wanting to limit
each other, but also realizing how to make each other
feel secure that when we're dating other people together, we're realizing, wait,

(07:37):
this is actually not only easier, but I'm feeling love
and feeling things that I've never felt before with just
one person. The connection and love that you can find
when you add more people into your love.

Speaker 8 (07:52):
I feel like it was really.

Speaker 9 (07:54):
Mind opening for us, and so we've started to go
down the path of polyamory and what that looks like
dating together. But even now, for the first time this year,
I'm like, oh, I understand like what a pollocule could
be and how that can operate, and how I cannot
be insecure in that dynamic, and how I could support

(08:14):
my partner finding love outside of me while also being
able to support that love too.

Speaker 4 (08:20):
I think that's that's incredible. It took me into my
later years to even get that. But I think that's
one thing that's always impressed me about as this younger
generation coming up, just their approach sex positivity. I'm like, fuck, like,
I was so fucked up about shit, you know, and

(08:40):
it took me, honestly, it took to my mid to
late thirties. That's good shit, because to be able to
find that at a younger age.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
I mean, just avoid a lot of bullshit. Doctor Mel.

Speaker 4 (08:57):
Yes, So Doctor Mel has hosted a couple of our
after the party after care I have, which has been
a really really good thing that we want to bring back. So,
what has been your experience being polyamorous in a play space?

Speaker 1 (09:18):
How is that?

Speaker 7 (09:21):
What is my experience being polyamorous in a play space?
That's a great question, I think that.

Speaker 5 (09:29):
So it's interesting.

Speaker 7 (09:30):
I have different feelings about being in playspaces. I love
being in the energy of a play space, and I
think I'm gonna speak specifically about Susia, so I think
that it's cheating because there is no place like Susia.

Speaker 6 (09:42):
But.

Speaker 7 (09:44):
There is this beautiful way of really just being able
to explore. So my husband doesn't really love play parties,
and so he I usually go by myself. Sometimes I
am there with one of my other partners. Sometimes I'm
just there alone. But I think that the nice thing
is you can sort of be in a play space

(10:05):
and you just feel open and free right to meet
new people. I do lean towards the side of being
more of a demisexual, so I do enjoy connection, which
I think is some of the ways and why polyamory
fits more for me than necessarily just not necessarily being
like the umbrella of E and M and then maybe
being a swinger. Right, So, I like being in a

(10:28):
play space because it gives me the opportunity to meet
new people, and I think sousia makes it so easy
to be there and not have to engage in anything physical.
I think the nice thing about polyamory is it doesn't
mean that you're having sex with a whole bunch of people.
You are just it's many loves, so you're having connections
with other people, which also feels really good. So I

(10:51):
don't know if I answer your question, but I think
that's kind of like what has been like for me
to be in.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
Those spaces, Like they made the distinction between love and sex.

Speaker 5 (10:58):
Yeah, such a different which.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
Is where my question comes in, right, because me and
my girlfriend love to have ignorant conversations about polyamory, right,
but in a more like just a very curious way,
because when you say, like you know, it's more about
love than just sex, most people will go So I don't,
I'll just just call each other friends.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
Why do you have to call it polly? Like? What
is it?

Speaker 2 (11:20):
What is it that is just so polly that y'all
are doing over there. I love we're idiots, we love
going what are y'all doing over it? When whenever we're not,
we're not doing something.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
Like what the fuck are they doing over there?

Speaker 2 (11:32):
But that is a question that like people ask, It's like, well,
why don't you just call it just friends if it's
not a romantic situation.

Speaker 5 (11:41):
So I think that.

Speaker 6 (11:46):
Having the freedom to be able to designate who becomes
what for me and not having that be dictated by
some arbitrary rule in the air that says that I
can't experience this love for multiple people. And so I
like that polyamory offers us the opportunity to customize our
relationships to suit.

Speaker 5 (12:08):
Our own needs.

Speaker 6 (12:09):
We reach the human experience and we're immediately told we
want heterosexuality, we want marriage, we want monogamy, without ever
really checking in with each human and saying, hey, is
this what you want?

Speaker 5 (12:23):
Is this the kind of relationship that you want to
be in?

Speaker 6 (12:26):
So I love that polyamory allows us the opportunity to
sort of decide what our relationships look like, because even
like you're saying, okay, well, why don't you just call
it friends? Well, I sleep with my friends, you know,
but we're friends, you know what I mean, And that's
what we are. So someone on the outside looking in
may look at that relationship and say that it's you know,
romantic because it has a sexual component.

Speaker 5 (12:47):
But I'm like, no, we're friends.

Speaker 6 (12:48):
And then there are people that have partners that they
don't sleep with and they don't have sex with, and.

Speaker 5 (12:51):
It's just about love.

Speaker 6 (12:52):
And so I like that polyamory gives us the opportunity
to craft what our relationships look like as it serves
our needs. And we're the only ones that are making
the definitions for what is friendship, what is love?

Speaker 5 (13:04):
What is romance?

Speaker 6 (13:05):
You know, we're making those decisions ourselves instead of just
allowing this sort of compulsory narrative that we've been given
dictate for us.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
You know what we need out of a brocking titles
that just generalize very broadly.

Speaker 6 (13:15):
Right, exactly right? So why not call it friends because
it's not you know, that's not what it is.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, So then I have a question to the room, right,
because now it just sounds like we're redefining what the
definition of love is, right, if that would make sense?
And how or how you express love, feel love, and
get love from the people around you. And so that
would change what polyamory actually is. When you change your
mindset and what love is.

Speaker 9 (13:39):
I want to say something, Well, I think we're not
changing the idea of what love is. I think we're
opening the idea of what love can be, just like gender.
Right now that we have non binary people, trans women,
trans men, does that mean that boys and girls still
don't exist or the binary still doesn't exist. No, that
is still something in existence and it is respected and

(14:02):
society runs on it. But we're giving ourselves the freedom
to express how we want to express within our love
that can also manifest in more ways than what is popular.

Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (14:15):
Yeah, I think it's essentially.

Speaker 6 (14:18):
Saying not necessarily changing the idea of love, because I
would say that polyamory is just basic relationship principles on steroids,
you know.

Speaker 5 (14:25):
So.

Speaker 8 (14:26):
It really is.

Speaker 6 (14:28):
You know, it's just like multiplayer game, you know, and
we're navigating complex you know, relationships all the time and
our families, on our jobs or whatever. We're just not
used to doing that in the romantic context. But I
think it expands how love can be expressed. I think
it expands like how we can experience love, and especially
romantic and sexual love is saying you know what is

(14:49):
more out there?

Speaker 5 (14:49):
Even friendship.

Speaker 6 (14:50):
You know, polyamory has also opened up how I experience
friendship because I don't reserve all of my intimacy or
most of my intimacy for my romantic relationships. So when
I began to call my romantic relationships into question how
I experienced them, then I looked at all of my
relationship spaces and go, you know what about this can
I expand? And so I think it's just expanding you know,

(15:11):
how love can be experienced and how it can be expressed.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
One thing you said that I really love is that
it's basic principles on steroids. And I do find that
my friends that are Polly or like people that are
on meat that aren't poly relationships, is that they get
the foundation out the way first, right. And so that's
the problem where a lot of people are why monogamous
people can't really understand polyamories because you don't have the
basic foundations of what makes.

Speaker 3 (15:35):
Your healthy relationships.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
So a lot of things that when I just have
conversations with people, they're thinking like, well, well that's cheating,
or well what if this person gets this amount of
tention and the other person gets upset. It's like probably happening,
but they know how to communicate after it happens. And
the problem in monogamous relationship is we don't have good practices,

(15:58):
So it's like monogaously. If I go, oh, man, babe,
I think her butt is pretty big, right, it looks good,
you're scared to even say that, or if somebody says
it to you, you don't know how to react or
go about saying like I might not have like like
that statement, So it doesn't change anything. In a poly relationship,
relationship is relationship. It's about the foundation that you have

(16:19):
within that relationship that helps you navigate the poly field.
That was just like my short explanation from a non
poly person.

Speaker 9 (16:27):
I totally feel like foundation is so important and it
makes me wonder, Like I question because I'm lucky to
have been able to start this poly experience, non monogamous
experience with my current partner. We got to build such
a solid foundation of trust before we started experience experiencing
romance or intimacy outside.

Speaker 8 (16:45):
Of each other.

Speaker 9 (16:46):
So I wonder what it's like to first start dating
someone already being polyamorous and already having dynamics of other partners,
and the safety I guess that I felt with really
resides sometimes in the amount of time we've already put
into our relationship and the security we've created. So there's

(17:09):
a little fear that comes up for me when I
think about starting a new poly relationship with somebody. If
we don't necessarily have that foundation before, we're just going
balls to the walls.

Speaker 8 (17:19):
Polly, you know what I mean.

Speaker 5 (17:21):
I mean, I was gonna say.

Speaker 6 (17:22):
I think that one of the things that I love
about polyamory personally and just my own personal work is
I've learned how to shift my idea of security to
myself first, so feeling secure in myself and feeling okay
with who I am. And then now as I meet

(17:43):
new people, because I started polyamory with my then husband,
you know, we've since gotten divorced. Now I'm a single person.
I'm out, and so I'm doing that exact thing that
you're doing. I'm meeting people and immediately we're already establishing
that we're going to be non monogamous. And yet I
still find that I'm able to build relationships that have
a solid foundation because we redefine kind of what foundation means,

(18:03):
and it's more about like, how are we showing up
to one another, How are we prioritizing one another, how
we making time for another, How we're creating stafe space
for one another, And that can be done even as
I'm relating to other people. So I feel like it's
more developing the skills of how to be secure as
an individual with yourself, and then that helps you. Your
foundation is yourself and so no matter where you're at,

(18:23):
your solid you know. And so for me, that's really
been the core work is like how am I working
on my own sense of personal security so that I'm
arriving to my relationships from a secure space. And then
now I'm making sure that I'm choosing other people who
are also doing network and so that way where sort
of we are our secure foundation in and of ourselves,
and when we come together, it's just two secure foundations,

(18:46):
you know, building on that security.

Speaker 7 (18:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think what you're talking like, you're
actually talking about attachment styles, right, and so I think
regardless of if you are in a monogamous relationship or
you are polyamorous, attachment style still matters, and you are
developing secure relationships with multiple people, and it's possible, right,
but it depends on how you talk about it and
the communication around it.

Speaker 5 (19:08):
Right.

Speaker 7 (19:08):
So you're speaking about feeling secure with yourself, which is
super important. Right. But then I'm also you know, I
was listening to something recently and it's like, polyamory is
multiple commitments. It's not like you're just out here like
using it, which I think sometimes people do hide behind
this as a way to have more sex.

Speaker 5 (19:26):
Right.

Speaker 7 (19:26):
It's being committed to multiple people. And if you are
in a commitment to multiple people, you still have to
have security in the relationship, knowing that that person cares
about you and wants to be in this moment or
this relationship with you, and that it's you aren't worrying
about whether or not that partner is going to leave you.

(19:47):
All of those principles are still present even though it
is a polyamorous or polyamous relationships that you're entering.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
It's really interesting because.

Speaker 4 (19:57):
I think another thing too a lot of people don't
realize is that you could be non monogamous or polyamorous
and still have jealousies, still have all the things going on.
You could be non monogamous like, you know, my wife
and I are non monogamous.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
We dipped our.

Speaker 4 (20:16):
Toe into polyamory pool, and I'll realize it's a lot.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
There's a lot of responsibility.

Speaker 4 (20:23):
It is, you know, like like like just what you said,
you know, Noma, if you don't need to hide behind
polyamory to fuck a lot, you could just be non
monogamous and be honest about it. You know, when you
throw polyamory into it, it's kind of like, let's not
you know, there is a distinction between the two, and
and for me.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
It definitely hit me because I was like, I was like,
you know, my lover at the moment had called.

Speaker 4 (20:52):
And was going through a little crisis, and I was like,
I was like, look, man, I told you. I literally
said to you, I'm always show my best self.

Speaker 5 (21:10):
And then.

Speaker 4 (21:14):
My wife is like morgana, She's like what happened? I said, well,
you know, She's like what are you doing?

Speaker 1 (21:20):
And I was like oh.

Speaker 4 (21:23):
Then she called her and I'm like shame, I'm ashamed,
and I'm like that's she's consoling her. And I realized like, wow,
I don't think I'm ready for this, because I was like,
I was like, you know, and then we had a
conversation about it, and I apologized to her and I
was like, but you know, just do you remember when

(21:43):
I said that. She's like, yeah, but I didn't agree
to that. And I was like, oh, that's me just
because I said it, and I think dudes do this
a lot. In my present I said this, you know,
and nothing else matters around that what we said. So
it's definitely I was like, okay, okay, I get it now,
and it definitely made me realize and helping in perspective

(22:07):
like this, this, this is a lot of responsibility. This
is like you know, like like I I I enjoy
being with one person in a relationship. I got too
much going on to divide my attention. That's that's what
it comes down to.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
I believe you know. It's just a lot going on.

Speaker 4 (22:27):
Like you know, So it's it's it's it's what I
think we are going to head towards that.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
Right now, we're cool fucking other people.

Speaker 9 (22:37):
Where do your boundaries? If you don't mind me asking,
I'm just curious. I'm like, in your relationship, what's the
boundary in terms of like, okay, this is this is
the line of how you can communicate with this person.
Are you seeing them outside of each other or only
in certain spaces to communicate before after?

Speaker 8 (22:57):
I don't tell this.

Speaker 4 (22:58):
Is this is like where the my inner fuck boy
was like flabbergasted.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
So we.

Speaker 4 (23:06):
Had dinner with our prospective people, right, and we've been
over everything, and I was like, oh shit, wow, And
then it was my turn, and then I'm watching them
talk and I'm like, oh my god, this is all
I need to do, just be honest about the shit
and be willing to reciprocate. So the boundaries around that,

(23:29):
I don't know. I usually set up like I'm not
gonna lie. I'm more concerned about feeling safe me, you
know what I'm saying, Because if I don't feel safe,
I'm gonna start getting weird about other shit.

Speaker 3 (23:42):
So I focus on myself first.

Speaker 4 (23:44):
With the intent of being able to hold space for
my wife.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
One time, I was like, yeah, you know, just be
home by like, you know, two three o'clock.

Speaker 4 (23:57):
You know, just stupid shit, Yes, just a little bit,
just random two three o'clock.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
You got text me. So when it was my turn,
she she had been.

Speaker 4 (24:08):
Away and I was like, okay.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
I called and I was like, hey, what kind of wine?
Do you like?

Speaker 4 (24:21):
And Morgan is like, I'm not in town. I thought
I called oh right, So I felt such a rush
of shame and embarrassment and all the things that I
because I'd been a fuck boy before I attached pleasure
or the prospect the pleasure to someone else getting hurt,

(24:43):
you know what I'm saying in the guilt.

Speaker 3 (24:45):
And she just laughed, She's like.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
Shut up and call her, like why are you calling me?

Speaker 4 (24:50):
And her saying that, I was like, oh, I'm in
the street. I'm just like, oh my god, this is
this is And it was just like after that, it
wasn't any real boundaries after that had we you know,
we we stepped back because of the time because it's
like there's so much going on and we can't have assets,
so it's just like, let's let's stick with that. But

(25:13):
you know, it's it's it's it's been good nine and
a half years.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
It's worked.

Speaker 6 (25:17):
I think you brought up a really good point too,
about guilt and shame because often, you know, so many
people are used to conducting their nominogamy in a clandestine
way that's not you know, above lord in the day,

(25:41):
that's not above board or even just having their desires
for other people in a way that they can't express,
you know, and feeling a lot of shame around that
because I'm supposed to only like this one person. I'm
supposed to only be attracted to this one person. So
navigating the transparency and the openness of ethical nominogamy and
hollyamory and like you said, calling your partner accidentally, We've

(26:03):
all I've done it, you know, sent a text that
I meant to send some one.

Speaker 5 (26:05):
My partner does it all the time.

Speaker 6 (26:06):
And I'm like, wrong, wrong, babe, you know yeatories.

Speaker 3 (26:13):
Said, wrong, bitch, I said.

Speaker 6 (26:14):
You know what, You're right, right, exactly. So, And so
we're so used to this idea that you know, we
have to you know, are wanting to love multiple people
or be attracted or interact with multiple people is something
that we have to feel bad about, and we have
to feel shame about, and we have to feel guilty about.

(26:34):
And so that navigating that, oh, I don't actually have
to feel shame about this.

Speaker 5 (26:38):
I can be open about this.

Speaker 6 (26:39):
And not only can I be open about this, but
I can still be loved by the people that I'm
in relationship with as I interact with other people. You
know that they're not going to leave me, They're not
going to you know, demonize me. For this desire is
a revolutionary experience and also one that people really really
struggle with. So even when you're in a situation where
you can be open, you can still have that kind

(27:00):
of sheepish moment of going, is this okay that I'm
like on this date with this person, or I take
this call from this person that I love when my
partner is there, Because you know, we're so used to
feeling like we should feel shameful feelings, you know, for
you know, desiring more than one person in this way.

Speaker 8 (27:15):
That's so true.

Speaker 9 (27:16):
That's and that takes work, like really decolonizing that shame.
That reminded me of myself. And you know, when I
was in the closet and I used to use my
little ass, my grinder and stuff, when I was like.

Speaker 8 (27:27):
Getting my little hookups.

Speaker 9 (27:29):
As I'm now at this age where I'm an ethically
nominogamous relationship and I have the support of my partner
to go have a hookup, there was still this sense
of shame.

Speaker 8 (27:40):
After that it's like hard to get rid of.

Speaker 9 (27:42):
And now here I am relying on my partner to
give me overwhelmingly positive support, not realizing that it's like
they don't need to show up in this way for me,
just to show me that, like it's okay that I
did what I did. Clearly that's like my own work
that I need to do and really decolonize and declutter,
like why do I feel that shame and having to
relearn that pattern? Yeah, and giving my partner the space

(28:05):
that like, you can support me and be like yeah, no,
go go off, go get yours. But that doesn't mean
that they're going to support in the same way I would,
because I'm the one.

Speaker 8 (28:15):
Who's like, what do they look like? Who are they?
How was the time where going? And ash is very
much like I don't care.

Speaker 6 (28:28):
Yeah, I don't want a lot of information, don't tell
me about.

Speaker 7 (28:33):
Feel like a little information, a little any logistical information.

Speaker 6 (28:37):
And as I've gotten more mature and no monogamy, I
can definitely have more detailed conversations. So my partner and
I we have very detailed conversations about their interactions with
other people. I also noticed that the more secure I
feel in a relationship, the more I'm able to share
about their relationships with others because I'm not feeling his
threatn Whereas if it's a newer relationship or someone that
I have something kind of casual with, I'm very much

(28:59):
just like I'm glad you're living your life and having
a good time. That ain't got nothing to do with me,
Like I don't really need to know a ton about it,
but I can be a little like information light and
that all I want to know is are you having
a good time, are you enjoying yourself?

Speaker 5 (29:12):
Are you safe? And are you picking quality people? That's it?
That's it. You know.

Speaker 9 (29:17):
Do you have a hard time opening up if your
partner asks you about yourself?

Speaker 5 (29:21):
So that's really funny. I don't. He does not. He
loves details, so he is like, what did you do?
Where did you go? What happened? You know.

Speaker 6 (29:29):
He loves the details, so he won't ask questions. I
will answer them. I still can be a little clipped.
He does not get the same Like when I'm on
my girlfriends, I'm like bit you know, with him, I'm
a little bit more reserved but still open, you know,
because we've been together now for like five years, so
you know, there's a lot of security there. But I

(29:50):
do tend to be information light, but it's very much
because I tend.

Speaker 5 (29:53):
To give people what I would want.

Speaker 6 (29:55):
So I like my partners to be open and transparent
with me, but all so kind of tread lightly with
like what you're sharing, because sometimes you know, it may
be a little uncomfortable for me. So he's very you know,
he he navigates that very well. So he'll you know,
share something and he'll let me ask the questions for
the things that I want to know. Sometimes I'm very.

Speaker 5 (30:15):
Like, oh, would you do whatever? Blah blah, And if
you tell me how to date, I'm like, oh, show
what does she look like?

Speaker 4 (30:19):
What you wear?

Speaker 6 (30:19):
And you know, so he'll get that kind of treatment.
Some other stuff is a little bit more complex. I
remember recently he went on a date and we had
just had a conflict like right before, so I was
already feeling a little bit tender about our relationship. And
so so he went on his date, he had a
good time, and when he came back, we didn't get
a chance to really talk about it because we had
to navigate through our personal conflict. And then once we
got through that, I was like, Okay, so tell me
about your date. And so he told me about the date,

(30:41):
and he told me, you know that they had a
little sexy time, and I was like, do I need
to know anything else? Since I sat and he kind
of waited, and I was like, nope, I'm good, you
had a good time.

Speaker 5 (30:49):
We're good, okay, And that was kind of and then
we just moved on, you know, So it really does.
It does depend.

Speaker 6 (30:55):
I think what's most important is knowing what your boundaries are,
what you're comfortable with, and then choosing people that you are.

Speaker 5 (31:01):
In alignment with.

Speaker 6 (31:02):
I cannot stress that enough is making alignment choices. So
many people choose people for the person that they want
without thinking is this person in alignment with the relationship experience.

Speaker 5 (31:15):
That I want to have?

Speaker 6 (31:17):
And that is so so so important in non monogamy
specifically because it's so broad and there's so many different
ways that people do it that making sure that you're
choosing people that you're in alignment with is so crucial.

Speaker 4 (31:28):
I love, tell me what happened something? I want to
want detail.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
I really want to know.

Speaker 5 (31:37):
You want to know. I love that.

Speaker 3 (31:40):
Exactly.

Speaker 8 (31:41):
I'm like, did you did you come? Okay, let's go,
bab come.

Speaker 6 (31:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
It's crazy because even mentally, like I'm so like Louis
knows me, I'm super open, super like comfortable and everything.
But I realized that even Saturday, my body on its
own still has times where it's like tenses up from
like that feeling of shame. Me and my girlfriend we
really call ourselves like hornogamous because we like doing all
the like wild freaky shit, but we always want to

(32:19):
do everything together, so we're not really like non monagamous.
We'll go out on our owns. That's how we start
our relationship. But we were a long distance and so
when we finally came together, we realize that we enjoyed
doing things together being together and like the non monogamy

(32:39):
really worked well when it was long distance, But now
that we're like in the same space, we're like feel
the need to be around other people.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
So we go to the play.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Party on Saturday, and I saw some friends of minees
that do like can play and stuff like that. One
of them do rope, one of them do a knife
play knives and claws. So I asked my girlfriend, can
I go over there and have our friend my friend
tied me up and then have another friend like through
the knife play and everything, and I showed them who

(33:12):
it was, and even with the permission that she was
okay with it, and it happening as I'm tied up
and they started, she had to come over to me
and go, relax, it's okay, like you're safe.

Speaker 6 (33:26):
And.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
It just melted into the fas I'd even realize how
tense I was and not, And even up until like
Saturday two days ago, I was like, oh, snap, my
body still may have some things with itself where it
feels like even as comfortable as I am with my
purse and everything like that, I still feel kind of
like nervous to open up one hundred percent. Now I'm

(33:48):
a person that's like really open and transparent, but I
can still feel in my body like just from like
past like relationships or how it was before that it
can really still sit there without even noticing it.

Speaker 5 (34:00):
The things.

Speaker 7 (34:05):
Literally one second, no, I think so when Max was
talking before about how and you keep calling them the
young sort of like the young person here. But there's
also there's a little bit of envy because I think
so many of us have waited until later in our
lives to actually start decolonizing and unlearning the bullshit that
we were taught, right, but it's it's in our It's

(34:26):
in our DNA, right, Like all of these limitations and
the things they tell us of that our taboo and
that you aren't supposed to be engaging with other people
and what we learn about monogamy is built into our DNA.
And so even when our brains, even when we're saying
like I actually don't want to I don't know, that's
not in alignment with what I want to do. I
don't want to live this way, but our body still

(34:47):
has it built in, and so there has to be
this conscious, consistent, constant kind of like reminder that it
is okay, it's okay where I am. It's okay with
what I want to do. I am being f thickly
non monogamous with my partner. We've had a discussion about this,
but it's it's an every day right, Like you can't
say you're going to be non monogamous or even you know,

(35:10):
and even take the next step to be polyamorous and
then stop talking. And you also can't expect yourself to
just be okay with it like that, right, It's a
constant sort.

Speaker 6 (35:20):
Of it's becoming I would say that You don't become
non monogamous with one decision to become non monogamous. It
is a constant process because, like I said, we hit
the ground running, we get monogamous conditioning, and then we
are receiving continued monogamous conditioning, even if you're polyamous. I've
been polyamorous now for nine ten actually over ten years.

Speaker 5 (35:41):
But in every song in the media, like now, we're getting.

Speaker 6 (35:45):
Representation, we're having shows, things that are coming out, but
you know, we're still receiving that monogamous conditioning constantly. So
just saying oh, we're going to be open one day
and then just having this expectation that you're going to
get into it and it's just all going to be
okay with you and it's all going to make sense
and you're going to know how to operate.

Speaker 5 (36:02):
It's naive at best and delusion.

Speaker 6 (36:07):
You know.

Speaker 5 (36:07):
It is a becoming. It's a process of unpacking.

Speaker 6 (36:09):
It's bringing all of these relationship ideas that we've been
given and going how does that serve where I'm at today?
How does that serve what I want out of my relationship?
That do I still believe that? Did I ever believe that?
It's having to bring all of that into question, kind
of bringing it on the on the examination table and
going what am I keeping that's genuinely for me? And

(36:30):
what am I getting rid of? And it's a it's
a concept. It's actually one of my favorite parts of nominogamy. Honestly,
I think it's the part that makes it most fun.
Is actually the self discovery. Yeah, you know, the multiple
partners and having sex with a bunch of people, you know,
getting loved and getting you know, you know, three good
morning texts and bababies.

Speaker 3 (36:45):
That part is nice.

Speaker 5 (36:55):
That one, you know, it is nice, but that that
is a.

Speaker 6 (37:00):
It's a fluctuating benefit, so that part is nice. And
then I had one year where I started the year
with five partners and by October I was down to one.

Speaker 5 (37:08):
Four breakups in one year, you know.

Speaker 6 (37:11):
So if I made my enjoyment of it about my
relationship experiences with other people, I would have this very roller.

Speaker 5 (37:17):
Coaster experience of it of up and down and up
and down and up and down.

Speaker 6 (37:21):
So I had to learn how to connect what the
benefit was to have nothing to do with the relationships
that I was in, And for me, the biggest benefit
of nominogamy is the self discovery.

Speaker 5 (37:30):
I learn so much about myself.

Speaker 6 (37:32):
One of the things I say is I got into
it to become intimate with more people, and the person
that I became the most intimate with is myself.

Speaker 5 (37:39):
So it's taught me so much about who.

Speaker 6 (37:42):
I am as an individual and who I want to
be as a person. And that, to me, is the
biggest benefit of nom moinogamy, probably more so than any
thing I've ever done, is how it's shaped me as
a person.

Speaker 4 (37:53):
I think one of the cool things about polyamory when
I was, you know, when we were trying, you know,
tempting to explored a bit, just like kind of like
they're kiddy floaters, Like it's.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Pretty deep over there. It's pretty deep.

Speaker 4 (38:10):
It was the kinds of polyamory, you know, and just
talking to people, you know, polyamorous, I guess relationship anarchiss or.
It's just and I'm just like wondering, like, is it
my programming is that part of it? But I just

(38:33):
feel and then they put the concept of hierarchy into
like white supremacy and shit, and I'm.

Speaker 10 (38:39):
Just kind of like, but I was like, my wife's
like she's number one, you know what I'm saying, I
don't know, is that is that me not doing the
work around it or something which is also really it's
just you know, I respect each person and how they're
gonna do it, like yeah, rock like that, And I

(39:00):
also see how that could also.

Speaker 4 (39:03):
Be used two to move in a weird way, you
know what I'm saying. And then I'm sorry. It's just
a table top kitchen table kitchen table kitchen table polyamory,
which for me intellectually seems like my preferred way. What

(39:27):
what are your preferred ways?

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Before you answer the question, I want to make sure
because now everybody knows the poly terms.

Speaker 3 (39:32):
What is kitchen table.

Speaker 6 (39:34):
Uh So, kitchen table Polly is actually a term that
was coined by Tik the Wolf, who is a very
very very dear friend of mine.

Speaker 5 (39:43):
They have the uh.

Speaker 6 (39:46):
Kimchie Cuddles is the polyamory comic that they do, and
they coined the term kitchen table poll and what it
essentially describes is a type of polyamory where people's partners
and partner's partners can all sit around the kitchen table
and have coffee and so so there's parallel polyamory, which

(40:07):
is a person is having multiple polyamorous relationships, and then
people may know about each other, but they don't interact.
So it's like this relationship is this way, this relationship
is this way, This relationship is this way, and they
don't cross connects. That's why it's called parallel because their
relationships are on parallel. Kitchen table polyamory is a type
of polyamory where everybody can sit around and go to
be at the kitchen table, and they go to things
together and they hang out in the metamors, which is

(40:28):
your partner's partner essentially they have a relationship. For a
long time, it was seen as the gold standard of polyamory,
which I hated personally because as a person who struggled with,
you know, a metamor relationship for a while and had
you know, you know, the metamor space was a challenging
one for me at times. I didn't like that they

(40:48):
kind of push, you know, kitchen table polyamories like the
gold standard. If you're going to do poly this is
how you need to do it.

Speaker 5 (40:54):
I think that.

Speaker 6 (40:55):
It's just a type of polyamory and it has its
its benefits and why I am in a kitchen table
dynamic now in the sense that my partner's partners were
all very close. I stayed her house when I go
to you know, Los Angeles. We have a close and
loving relationship, but that's largely because she's the kind of
person where I would have that regardless of whether or

(41:15):
not he was dating him or not.

Speaker 5 (41:16):
It's not compulsory.

Speaker 6 (41:18):
So where there are some people there compulsory, we have
to have kitchen table polyamory. So that's that's, you know,
a loosely turned what kitchen table is. I like kitchen
table when it's when it can happen, Like I said,
when my partner is choosing people who I wouldn't normally
have a relationship with anyways because I like them as
a person. But I've also had my partner have partners
while I'm like, I don't like that bitch, okay, and

(41:38):
I don't want to do with her, no, seriously, Like
I have no qualms about that. People try to act
like that, so you know you're not as of all, No,
I don't like that hoe, Okay, I'm really glad that
you like her and you go have your relationship with
her over there. Don't bring your girlfriend over here, right, seriously,
and so and so for me, kitchen table is nice

(41:58):
when it works. I don't think it should be forced.
I don't think it's a gold standard of polyamory. And
I also think that it's totally okay to say I
love that you have other relationships and I hope that
they're making you happy. I don't really want to have
a ton to do with them and be parallel. I
think that's also okay.

Speaker 3 (42:12):
Too, Sorry, So what was your question?

Speaker 4 (42:13):
That was the lesson I learned with nominogamy is like,
I don't have to like who My wife was fucking
a few of them. I was like, not bad people,
none at all. That's okay because she finds value in you,
you know what I'm saying, and vastly important part. So
I could definitely see that because it's just an an

(42:39):
that's moving in an organic matter.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
Because if you're forced.

Speaker 4 (42:42):
To be around some people around the kitchen tables that
and coffee late.

Speaker 6 (42:48):
It can be very coercive when people wield it that way.
It also, I feel like it does not serve a
single solo non nested partners sometimes when there's a forced
a kitchen table dynamic, and so they almost feel like
they have to play along in order to have their relationship.

Speaker 5 (43:03):
With the person.

Speaker 6 (43:04):
And so what I think is important for people to
understand is that if they desire kitchen table polyamory and
their partner desires kitchen table polyamory, then they need to,
like I said that alignment piece, make sure that you're
communicating that to the people that you're vetting and that
you're interacting with, so that you're also choosing people that
they have kitchen table as a principle that they hold

(43:27):
deer and so when you're making your partner choices, you
will be choosing people that will also be showing up
to doing the work of having kitchen table because that's
a value that they hold. So if like my husband,
for example, did not value kitchen table polyamory. He was
an introvert. He had a low people bandwidth, and so
he just could not deal with metamores and all the energy.
He just couldn't deal with it, and so kitchen table

(43:49):
polyamory had no value for him. So he really didn't
try very hard to make sure that you know, me
and his partners.

Speaker 5 (43:55):
Vibed or meshed. He didn't care clearly, but we're not
going to go there. And so it's making sure that
you choose people that.

Speaker 6 (44:03):
If that's what you want, you want kitchen table polyamory,
that you're choosing people who also want kitchen table polyamory,
because then you all have that kind of shared value
and it won't feel like work trying to make it happen,
you know, because everybody that's what they value, and so
they're all going to do their own work to kind
of make that happen. And then you have people that
they kind of just they don't really care if their
partners have much of a relationship or you know, to
have a relationship with their metamors. And that has to

(44:24):
be okay too, because if we're talking about a relationship
structure where we're giving people autonomy, we also need to
give people the autonomy to say, I really don't want
to interact with that person if I don't want to.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
What was the question that you would ask?

Speaker 1 (44:37):
I sent you interrupt about what which question about the kitchen.

Speaker 4 (44:40):
Table versus O versus within the polyamory structure, like the
non hierarchical structure, How do you feel about hierarchy, doctor
mel Uh, Because yes.

Speaker 5 (44:59):
It's gone through evolution, right.

Speaker 7 (45:00):
I think when we first start first started identifying as Polly,
I was like very strongly into a hierarchical structure at
this point. I the only sort of the only piece
in my hierarchy is that my husband and I are
each other's number one, and then everybody else kind of
like has similar feel right, But I think we were

(45:21):
doing it differently before. I think like each person that
sort of came in had a different like number on
the scale. But I didn't like the way that it
didn't It didn't work right, It didn't feel like it
worked for us or even worked for me. And I
think that's the other piece. Like your Polly will evolve
over time, and so there are things that you think
might work or even that you want to try out

(45:42):
or test out, and then you kind of realize, eh,
I don't like that, that doesn't feel like it's okay.
So being okay with that flexibility and change is really important.
But yeah, we don't do hierarchy beyond each other.

Speaker 6 (45:55):
For me, hierarchy is it is really a conversation about
harm reduction. So I don't practice hierarchy. My husband and
I when we were doing it together, we you know,
abolished hierarchy pretty quickly.

Speaker 5 (46:09):
But I'm not going to be one of them. I'm
not one of those polyamory people that feel like hierarchy
is evil. Like I'm like, okay, like people are going
to do this.

Speaker 6 (46:17):
Number one, a couple coming into nominogamy is scary, and
just like you said, it evolved, you have to be flexible.

Speaker 5 (46:23):
So like Vita that was first entering in it and
Vita now two.

Speaker 6 (46:25):
Completely different people, but trying to come into nonminogamy from
monogamy in a couple and just go, We're just going
to take all the restrictions off.

Speaker 5 (46:36):
To me, that's way too disregulating to the I'm sorry,
it is a nervous system.

Speaker 6 (46:43):
And yeah, we came in kind of hot, and I
was struggling, like, you know, it's way too disregulating to
the nervous system personally, And so I tend to be like, Okay,
people are going to do hierarchy, So how do we
educate them to do hierarchy well to mitigate the harmful
impacts of it?

Speaker 5 (47:03):
That to me is the important a harm reduction conversation.

Speaker 6 (47:06):
Same thing with something like unicorn hunting, all of these
things that people demonize.

Speaker 5 (47:09):
You know, I don't engage in a lot of those things. Personally.

Speaker 6 (47:13):
But if people are going to because we're talking about
adults making adult choices about who they.

Speaker 5 (47:19):
Are going to interact with.

Speaker 6 (47:21):
So I'm more like, okay, if people are going to
unicorn hunt, if they're going to have hierarchy, if they're
going to do whatever, how do we educate these people
to do these things in a way that mitigates harm?
So communicate what does the hierarchy mean?

Speaker 5 (47:35):
Does that mean that you know, like, what.

Speaker 6 (47:38):
Are the particulars of it? And communicating that to the
people that you're interacting with. I have a hierarchy. This
is what that means for you. This is what that
means for our relationship. This is what that means for
how much we can have, we can hold, how much
space you can take up based on this hierarchy, so
that people are agreeing to what it is that they're
coming in. And then also, like you understand, being flexible.

(47:58):
So we can't have these hard and rigid agreements because
life is not hard and rigid, So every situation is
not going to be able to fall under these guidelines
that we So how are we being flexible? How are
we changing as people's needs change? How are we incorporating
these people that we're inviting in that we're committing to
to be in a relationship. If you're committing to be
in a relationship with people, you're committing to care about

(48:19):
their needs as well, and so that's important. So I
don't think, you know, hierarchy is one of those things.
And I was like, ah, you know, I wouldn't do it,
but like, if you're going to do it here, let me.

Speaker 5 (48:28):
Help you figure out how to do it.

Speaker 9 (48:30):
Well, yeah, yeah, I feel like I connect with what
both of you said.

Speaker 8 (48:35):
But I understand.

Speaker 9 (48:38):
Coming in as a couple and then kind of just
throwing hierarchy out the out the window.

Speaker 8 (48:43):
Would I can't imagine that such a lot that would
go crazy.

Speaker 9 (48:47):
But I think I'm right now in the boat that
you said is like me and my partner we know
are each other's number ones. But that hierarchy after that,
and not to say that someone else coming in means
this person is more important than you. But the idea
is that just like I don't know everything in the world, No,

(49:07):
you can't compare apples to oranges. So when you have
all of these different relationships, what I'm seeing is like
I can't say that I value this relationship more than
this relationship or this person more valuable than this because
to me, they might each have their own needs and
their own places in my life in which they show up.
As long as we're like communicating and letting each other

(49:29):
know what the expectations are and what our agreement is,
then I feel like we can all be on the
same page. But for me and my partner, I guess
now we're kind of focused on you know, of course
exploring together and still having our space to like play
away from each other, but cultivating that Like I don't
know if it is a thrupple, but we just want

(49:51):
another partner to be able to like really feel like
romantical with, you know, like we're kind of we're kind
of like crushing on this person currently and like seeing
what that's going to turn into for us and what
that dynamic will also look like, because I mean, we
got thrown into the poly waters on reality TV, you know,
Couple to Throttle, So it's like that format of the

(50:15):
show restricts polyamory already to just one couple having the
hierarchy looking for a single and then at that point,
you know, it almost becomes like a little bit of
a game show because it's like we're staying or we're
swapping people and no one here.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
It's not the same want to stay with.

Speaker 9 (50:41):
But for example, when we were there in the resort,
we had throubled up with this one person, Becca, and
we had an amazing experience with them. We communicated with
them that we're new to polyamory, we love our experience
with you and we're super excited, but we don't know
if we're just super excited about polyamory or if we're
just like really meshing with you as a person. So
we would love to be able to explore someone else

(51:03):
right and through the format of the show. After like
another stair swap, we came back to Becca and Becca's like, well,
I just feel like I'm a third option. And the
thing is, it's not that you're a third option like
your option. See, it's just in the format of this show,
we are here to explore and find polyamory that works
for us and possibly a thruple that really meshes well

(51:25):
with us. We had an experience with you, and we
know it was great. We wanted to experience something else
to see if we had any comparisons, and honestly, on
the show because of everything going on, we didn't get
any other threatle experiences outside of the great one.

Speaker 8 (51:40):
That we did have with Becca, even though it went
up and down.

Speaker 9 (51:43):
But at that time, when they're saying that they are
feeling like such an option, I feel like it's like couple's.

Speaker 8 (51:50):
Privilege, you know.

Speaker 9 (51:50):
I've heard people talk about, you know that, like, oh,
I'm just a single, you can kind of just swap
me out. And I really don't like that, and I
don't want to. Yeah, I don't want to kind of
continue that notion of thinking, but I want to know
how to be able to share that, like you're not
an option and you're not option. See, it's just that

(52:13):
this isn't just thrupples. The format of the show is
keeping us to just thrupples. If this is polyamory in
the real world, I can have a beautiful relationship with you,
and we can have a beautiful relationship.

Speaker 8 (52:23):
With someone else.

Speaker 9 (52:24):
But that's the thing is like, now that it is
on reality TV, now there is this reference of couple
two threable that is one part of polyamory, and it's
one of from what I heard, the most hardest.

Speaker 6 (52:36):
It is the hardest dynamic to maintain. Most people come
into polyamory, couples come into polyamory and they think that, oh, well,
a triad is going to be the thing that.

Speaker 5 (52:46):
I should go for because it's you know, less jealousy,
we're with the cleame person.

Speaker 6 (52:51):
And I'm like, you know, people think that, you know,
triads are poaly one on one, and they're like pollly
three on one. So I was telling people like, if
you think about it, you've never seen your partner with
someone else, and now you're going to move into a
dynamic where not only are you seeing your partner with
someone else, but your other partner is with someone else,
and then someone else that they're with is each other,
and it's all happening right in front of your face.

Speaker 5 (53:13):
So like, that's that's a while shit.

Speaker 6 (53:17):
It's a while shit to think that you're just gonna
jump into we've never interacted with someone else to now
we're gonna be with we're gonna share a person, and
we're gonna be experiencing jealousy and all of these things,
and it's all happening in real time right in front
of us, where it's like if you were to date separately. Initially,
a lot of what your partner would be doing would
be happening away from you, and so you can manage

(53:37):
your feelings a little bit better. So I always tell
pe like couples in the comments, like I know it
seems counterintuitive, but dating separately it gives you an opportunity
to sort of work on those feelings. And then if
you decide if you want to be in a triad
or you want to you know, have someone together. Cool,
but but yeah tryads ain't no sip in tea?

Speaker 5 (53:56):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (53:59):
Yeah, the possibility seeing your partner flirt differently with someone else.

Speaker 5 (54:05):
And partner date someone else.

Speaker 9 (54:13):
Yeah, it was funny because going into this experience with
my partner, we didn't realize and now watching it back,
like wow, we almost like trained ourselves to go into this,
Like I feel like we took really good steps for
ourselves being non monogamous separately and really being able to
like manage that jealousy, start to be able to find
compersion and even like support. And I would say, like,

(54:36):
you know, I'm going to take off my partner hat
and put like my best friend hat on and be like,
you know, let me kekey about you or kekey about
this person.

Speaker 8 (54:43):
With you. So then going into this show, there was
so much fear.

Speaker 9 (54:47):
That we had with for the first time dating someone else,
seeing us kiss someone else, flirt with someone else. And
the first night we stayed with Junior, who was beautiful man.
I had never seen ash with another man before, so
this was like a big moment and I was like
freaking out thinking like, oh my god, am I gonna
get so jealous? Didn't really feel anything at all. I

(55:10):
felt so much more love, and I felt like like
I thought I knew what compersion was, but seeing my
partner happy and giddy and flirting and loving someone else,
like I I'm like getting chill singing about it right
now because it's just so beautiful to see someone that
you love finding love again.

Speaker 8 (55:26):
And it almost made me.

Speaker 9 (55:28):
Like start to fall in love again with them, you
know it like rekindles.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. Like I get a kick
out of that, Like now where this where that? Let's
get this outfit together? You know you look great.

Speaker 4 (55:41):
But then there's a flip side of that, which is
kind of like for me was a big leg.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
I was like, wait a minute, I got a consolet.

Speaker 3 (55:52):
I don't want to I don't want to.

Speaker 4 (55:53):
Do that, but it's she's my life partner, you know
what I'm saying. So it's like, you know, and trying
to try to navigate that. You just see how much
more responsibility is, how much more responsible?

Speaker 1 (56:07):
You're like wow?

Speaker 4 (56:08):
And then you you may notice traumas come up that
someone else triggered, and then it's like okay, cool or
with you know, with with you, with yourself, like like
with me evading the phone call, and I was like, damn,
I really did that, you know what I'm saying, Like
that's fucked up. You know, You're just like all these

(56:30):
things pop up and you really got to start to
examine yourself. I think I think polyamory is a really
beautiful concept and I hope that we get to explored again.
I think I appreciate us being number one and everyone
else after because there is the besides the marriage as

(56:55):
a financial there's us having a kid.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
There are all these things.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
That are like real life, like eal, no, this is no,
we're not.

Speaker 5 (57:05):
Cool.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
I get it, you know, but there is something there.

Speaker 4 (57:10):
No, man, I just think this world of nominogamy, there's
so many beautiful things and so many scary things about
it and.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
Such a challenge.

Speaker 4 (57:18):
It's liberating. You could also get caught in a loop.
You know, I've seen people get caught in a loop.
It's like that you've just especially in the play party scene,
it's like this, this is it, this is your whole thing,
you know what I'm saying, which which for me is
a little scary because it's like, then, what's what's after?

Speaker 1 (57:43):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 4 (57:44):
You know what I'm saying, Like like like what's like okay, cool,
Like there's nothing wrong with being single, but it's it's
kind of like are you avoiding what's going on? And
I'm just saying so many different things in the community
itself and how it works.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
One thing I could say that I lie from the confusion.
And this is like a realized analysis is that WHOA
my person can get the happiness as if the same
type of happiness if as if I was given it
to them, but I don't got to do no work.
This is.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
One hundred percent.

Speaker 4 (58:21):
Or or I got the house to myself, Yo, I
got the house to myself even I mean thinking about Yo,
she's about to be happy and now you have to
do ship and then when I go home, she's still
gonna be happy, I have energy.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
I'm about the bus as.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
Another thing that I wanted to ask, And I just
want to ask this question to the room because earlier
you said monogamy training, and I want to ask the room,
do you feel like there's monogamy training in like the
poly relationships, Like in the sense of we talked about
earlier that monogamy might not sometimes have like the best
foundation or uh some people with the monogamy training, it's

(58:58):
like monogamous talks stereotypes, and I feel like it goes
into people trying to go into poly relationships right, like
the age old thing where women will try threesomes right
just to think like it's going to spice up the
relationship and make their person happy. Or another thing is
you'll get a guy. That is most most times it's

(59:19):
men that are unethnically, un ethically monogamous. It's basically they're
cheating and the women's like, oh, well, let's just try
poly now, because like if you're fucking other people, at
least now we're poly.

Speaker 3 (59:30):
So I just want to know.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
I like if there's like monogamy training in like these
poly relationships or non monogamalus relationships as well.

Speaker 6 (59:36):
I was gonna say, if you're not cognizant of unpacking monogamy,
you can bring that into polyamory. So I always say,
people try to do non monogamy monogamously, and it kind.

Speaker 5 (59:46):
Of doesn't work that way.

Speaker 6 (59:47):
So I think that, you know, we don't exist in
a vacuum, you know, so even if you didn't grow
up monogamously per se, because I've known people that their parents,
you know, were like my kids, their parents are non monogamous,
so they and really grow up with non monogamy in
their like you know, home of origin. But the society
around you is monogamous. So you're going to bring some

(01:00:09):
of that stuff in. And so I do think that,
you know, if people are moving through polyamory in an
unintentional and not conscious way, you can be perpetuating a
lot of things that work for monogamy and trying to
transfer that over to polyamory.

Speaker 5 (01:00:30):
It doesn't work.

Speaker 6 (01:00:30):
The way I say I describe it is it's like
changing your operating system, or like going from monogamy to
non monogamy is like going from like a PC to
a MAC. You know, so you have to change your
operating system. So you have to like kind of go over,
like some of the functions are not going to work,
some of the commands are not going to work. You
have to learn a new operating system. But yeah, you
got update your operating system, right, And so I think

(01:00:53):
some people go in and they're just going all the
things that I've done in relationships before are just going
to transfer over.

Speaker 5 (01:00:57):
I'm just doing it with more people.

Speaker 6 (01:00:59):
But it was like the things that you were doing
in relationships before were four relationships that were monogamous. This
is now no longer monogamy. This is non monogamy, and
so you have to kind of revamp how you do
relationships so that they support this new thing that you're
trying to do.

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
You did that give me some love?

Speaker 7 (01:01:18):
I do think that like to your point, like I
like that analogy of going from a PC to a MAC.
There's going to be an adjustment period, and so there's
this it's really important just to like some have some
grace with yourself, right, because when you do go into
polyamor and you start getting into relationships, you might have
those monogamous ideals and you don't you might not even recognize, right,
And depending on you know, there's a concept right called

(01:01:39):
new relationship energy. When you meet somebody new, it is
so exciting, it can be like it could take over, right,
And so you're not even paying attention to the fact that,
like I am actually pretending, like not pretending, but acting
as if this space is monogamous, or bringing those principles
with me when they're not. However, what I do think
is important when we're talking about foundation and right, one

(01:02:00):
of my favorite books that I read when we started
this journey was More Than Two, and I liked it
because there were so many to your point, I think
you were talking about this earlier. There are so many
principles about just relationships in general, right, Like I was like,
I actually want to give this book to my couples
that are monogamous, because y'all need to learn some of
these skills, right, just transparency and honesty and stop being

(01:02:22):
so possessive of folks.

Speaker 5 (01:02:23):
Right.

Speaker 7 (01:02:25):
So, I think there's there's almost a balance, right, because
even when you go from a Mac to a PC,
the keyboard is still the keyboard, right, There's some functions
that are different, right, Still there's still a monitor, right,
but like there are some different ways to actually navigate them,
and that's the piece. Like, there's some pieces we got
to keep and some things we need to open up
to and and sort of navigate differently to actually have

(01:02:47):
those kinds of relationships.

Speaker 9 (01:02:49):
And just because going from like monogamy to non monogamy
right and doesn't mean now because they're non monogamous, are
now probalyamorous means you can't cheat? Right Because it was
ethical when you were monogamous, It's still going to be
an ethical if you go about it the same way
in a non monogamous relationship. You still have to learn
the baseline of communication and honesty and understanding what are

(01:03:13):
your rules, what are the boundaries, what are the guidelines here?
And so just because you become polyamorous, there's still work
that's going to need to need to be done. But
sometimes that work also needs to be done in a
monogamous relationship. Maybe polyamory isn't necessarily.

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
What you need.

Speaker 9 (01:03:29):
Maybe it's really finding that wholesome, truthful, vulnerable, communicative monogamy
for yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:03:38):
This is Luis's episode, but I'm cooking with gas now.
I'm enjoying it. I like, I like these answers.

Speaker 4 (01:03:45):
There's definitely definitely I definitely want to give a big,
big shout out to Maxie and Ashley for for for
collaborating on this. My goodness, Carty, it's it's super queer,
you know. Geko and I had to go sit in
the van for a few hours, all right, like where

(01:04:06):
they're committed to it, and I really appreciate you getting
down on that, you know, I think it's going to
be really the next event I heard, I heard the
last event was dope.

Speaker 8 (01:04:15):
It was incredible. I mean, I heard you killed it
of the performance. The performance, Okay, I'll give you a
quick rundown.

Speaker 9 (01:04:23):
So I'm a dancer and a performer, but I also
went to school for contemporary and ballet, so I have
kind of this more like concert dance approach sometimes to
some of my work. And I got asked to perform
at Susia Queer the play party. I'll walk you through
set the mood. So I'm in a very cunt lingerie outfit.

(01:04:44):
Right Buttons starts playing by Pascat Dolls. I start serving
my cunt, you know, voguing, dancing whatever, doing what I do.
And then I pick up a bag and I start
taking articles of clothing out the bag.

Speaker 8 (01:04:58):
I put on these glasses.

Speaker 9 (01:04:59):
I put on a bandana, and eventually I put on
this button down shirt. And as I'm putting on the
articles of clothing, my movement becomes more masculine with each
piece of clothing than that I'm putting on. The last
thing that happens in this song is I pick Ash up,
or I stand her up, and then I pull their
pants off. I put their pants on, and now Pony

(01:05:23):
by Jenny Wine comes on, and now I'm fully masked out,
got my glasses, bandana, button down. Now I have my
sweats on, and I'm giving.

Speaker 8 (01:05:31):
You magic mike doing everything.

Speaker 9 (01:05:35):
And then I get my bag and I pull one
more thing out in my bag and it's a strap
on h dildo. I stand Ash up, We strap them up,
take off their top. Now they're fully vulnerable exposed with
their strap on. Now they then sit me down, bend
me over, pull my pants off, open my fish nuts,

(01:05:58):
and penetrate me as there. Well before they penetrate me,
I like passed them the lube and they lube up,
they eat my ass, they penetrate me, and then they
passed me the poppers, and so then penetration happens. Now
while they're penetrating me. I am undressing all the articles
of clothing that I had put on and passing them

(01:06:19):
to Ash. So I'm taking the glasses off and I'm
putting them on Ash. I'm taking them bandana off and
passing it to Ash. So as they're topping, they then
become fully masked down and I turned back into a
cut and then I take my pants off, and the
last thing that I do is I put the pants
back on Ash and Ashes full mask presentation.

Speaker 5 (01:06:44):
And it was such a.

Speaker 11 (01:06:49):
Yeah, that's that's a queer Yeah, Like an important question
is being missed here of how you're doing all this
while being penetrated. Answer as soon as I.

Speaker 5 (01:07:09):
Oh my god, no anything else.

Speaker 9 (01:07:11):
I just have to say, like it, thank you so
much for giving us that space and collaborating with us
on creating that space, because I mean, we had an
incredible time at Susia. When we initially went, Ash actually
surprised me with like a play party and it was
Susie and I was like, oh my god.

Speaker 8 (01:07:28):
And Ash actually, since I've met them.

Speaker 9 (01:07:30):
It's been a dream of theirs to be able to
host or create like some kind of play party for
the queer community.

Speaker 8 (01:07:35):
And what was so beautiful about this play party.

Speaker 9 (01:07:38):
What is so beautiful about Susie Queer is it's by
POC focused, trans, non binary, gender, not conforming centered, and
not to say that nobody is welcome, but this, this
space is one that is not segregating our queerness. It's
not one where this is a gay sex party. This
is a lesbian sex party. This is like us. This

(01:08:00):
is very much if you identify as queer, if you
identify within this community, please come and bring all of
your layers of femininity, masculinity, non binaryiness, transits, whatever it is.
And it's just a safe space which decolonizes all of
that and practices just enthusiastic consent, which was so healing

(01:08:23):
for so many people. You can literally feel the collective
healing going on in the room and the way that
you can see people start to come out of their
shelves or really like find more of themselves or find
strength in their voice and vulnerability. And that's what I
really love about Susia, the play party, the space. It's

(01:08:44):
really power through just collective vulnerability and healing and holding
space for everyone. I feel vulnerable enough to ask you
to be able to engage with you, but I also
feel you also feel vulnerable and safe enough to be
able to say and I feel strong enough to take
that now and understand that that's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
Louise doesn't know this, but we're currently working on changing
the word from safe space to brave space so that
people like have their strength and empowerment to like react
in this already known as safe space.

Speaker 3 (01:09:17):
Now, you know, Louise.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Something that was said when we were talking about like
monogamy to non monogamy and stuff like that was like
that transitional phase right in my relationship with my girl.
We started off as non monogamous and then we went
into monogamy. But something that happened I heard of, like
literally maybe a few days before I did this, was
I became monogamous before my girlfriend became a monogamous because

(01:09:42):
I always thought like the title would overarc like the
relationship like we both have to adhere to it, and
then come to find out that like we can both
be on different type of levels of pages of this
was like really roundbreaking to me what y'all thought, or like,
how does that happen?

Speaker 6 (01:09:58):
Yeah, I actually tell people all the time that you
don't have to practice the same relationship orientation that your
partner is practicing, so you can some people will get
into nominagou so like, for instance, when my husband and
I first got into nominogamy, swing.

Speaker 5 (01:10:15):
Worked very well for me.

Speaker 6 (01:10:17):
I love to fuck and I like to fuck a
lot of people, so like, yeah, like I'm.

Speaker 5 (01:10:22):
Like, I'm like a super slud, you know. So like
we got a swinging and I was like yes, Like
I was like, yo, you know what I mean.

Speaker 6 (01:10:30):
Whereas like he is, I don't know that he would
necessarily describe himself as demi sexual, but I do feel
like he was. He really wanted an emotional connection, Like
it was really hard for him to just I can
sleep with somebody whose name I don't even know. There
are people I can probably walk down the street and
I'm like, I probably fucked that person.

Speaker 5 (01:10:46):
I couldn't even recognize him. But he's not like that,
you know, like a gay man but always say I'm
a gay man.

Speaker 6 (01:10:56):
So but so, but he struggled with swinging because he
could form emotional bonds with people and that was important
to him.

Speaker 5 (01:11:04):
And you know, if I knew then what I know now,
you know.

Speaker 6 (01:11:07):
I would have probably just stayed a swinger for maybe
a little bit longer and let him explore polyamory. So like,
you don't have to practice the same relationship or like
model that your partner is practicing.

Speaker 5 (01:11:19):
So there are polymonal pairings, there are pairings.

Speaker 6 (01:11:21):
Where someone's more of a swinger and other person's more polyamorous.
You know, there are different you can do kind of whatever.
It's more important about the communication and then also kind
of going is it important for me that my partner
shows up the exact same way that I do. So
it's one thing to say I want to be monogamous
or non monogamous because that's what I want to do.
But the next thing is going, but do I need

(01:11:43):
my partner to be polyamorous or not monogamous if that's
what I'm doing. So I do think that it's possible
that you can practice something different than what your partner
is doing in the same relationship.

Speaker 5 (01:11:52):
But it does take a lot of communication.

Speaker 6 (01:11:54):
It also takes like getting in touch with yourself and
really being secure about what it is that you want,
and of knowing that and saying, Okay, you want to
do this, that's cool, I want to do this and
that's cool, and then keeping your eyes on your own
paper is really important because like, for instance, say you
have a.

Speaker 5 (01:12:09):
Like a swinger poly pairing for example, So the.

Speaker 6 (01:12:12):
Swinger person could be looking over the you know, the
their poly partner and going, well, you got all these
people that love you and they're nice to you, and
y'all do things whatever, blah blah blah, and that looks
really good and I'm just over here having casual sex.
But the poly person could be looking at a swinger person.

Speaker 5 (01:12:25):
And going, yeah, and you don't have to show up
emotionally to these people.

Speaker 6 (01:12:29):
You know, you're not dealing with you know, breakups in
one year, you know, right. Yeah, So there's pluses and
minuses to each thing that we choose, and so it's
important that we're like checking in with ourselves and going, no,
I'm just genuinely doing what I want to do, and
my partner is doing something different and that's what works
for them, and that's cool, and I'm giving them the
They have the autonomy to have craft the relationship life

(01:12:51):
that they want, but this is the relationship life that
I want.

Speaker 5 (01:12:54):
And so yeah, so it can be done. Yeah, I
do believe that it can be done.

Speaker 4 (01:13:00):
I think, well, one thing you mentioned demosexuality, and you
mentioned coming to finger Life like whatever that was Morgan
and I.

Speaker 3 (01:13:08):
I didn't realize I.

Speaker 4 (01:13:09):
Was more demisexual leaning and she was more just like,
what's up, let's do this. And the evolution was that
we ended up being like that a little bit, you know,
especially in the last like year and a half, where
it's just like we're rediscovering ourselves and then each other

(01:13:30):
in that sense, and it's like oh, and.

Speaker 1 (01:13:32):
Then it's like.

Speaker 4 (01:13:34):
She's like, oh, now I know what you went through
and I was like yeah. And then vice versa, you know,
saying you're like, oh, I get it, changing these shoes.
So there is a constant evolution of relationships regardless where
you're at.

Speaker 3 (01:13:46):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:13:49):
I think the world of nominogamy is beautiful. I'm glad
I discovered it or found or not discovered it found me.
I'm putting a flag in right found it. I'm glad
it found me. And I'm really glad to have you
guys on the show. I think it's gonna be dope.
I think like first time I met you, I was like, oh,

(01:14:12):
it was like, yo, we are homies, same thing, same thing,
you know, Like you guys are just fucking amazing what
it is?

Speaker 3 (01:14:21):
You know, I didn't want to ask a question.

Speaker 2 (01:14:24):
This question comes from the outside, right, somebody wants to know,
Like how does the wow I was I was trying
to look for award and it said framework And that's
the word I was trying to look for.

Speaker 3 (01:14:35):
How does the framework of like Polly Polly work? And
like the long term?

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
Right, So, like say, if you if we want to
get married, not the government type of married, but like
the ceremony of like committing to how many other people
because we are y'all are Polly are different types of relationships,
But how does it work long term with like all
these bodies and energies in your relationship type space?

Speaker 7 (01:14:59):
I mean, I think it really depends on what again
works for you. Right, we went into Polly already being married.
Thus far, we haven't gotten to a space where we
have wanted to move in with our partners or live
with them, or do anything else outside of like our
main relationship. We also have kids, so like we have
a home that we maintain. But I do know of

(01:15:20):
people that have commitment ceremonies with their other partners. They
all live together, there are kids involved, somebody's having babies, like,
there are so many different iterations of what this can
look like. I mean, in some ways people are building
their poly family and it's really it goes beyond all

(01:15:41):
the things we've ever been taught. So I think we
always have to remember that because I think sometimes we
get limited by the things that we've seen and you
don't know what you don't know. But there is a
space where if it works for you, if that's what
you want your life to look like, if all the
people involved are on board or in alignment and feel
happy with what you're choosing, then.

Speaker 5 (01:16:01):
Do you Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:16:03):
I did polyamory for almost a decade with my husband
until we separated in twenty twenty.

Speaker 5 (01:16:09):
I know people that live in multi.

Speaker 6 (01:16:11):
Partner households like you said, they have multiple children. The
people I know poly people that get married and so
it can be done. I've been with my partner for
five years. He's been with his other partner for closes.
I think they're coming up on six this year, and
then he's been married to his wife for like eleven
twelve years. So longevity is possible in polyamor. We also

(01:16:35):
teach in polyamory that longevity is not the it's not
the only marker of success, so we try to learn
how to unpack you know, that idea that you know
you have to figure out how to stay together forever
as a marker the sole marker of success or relationship.
But longevity is important and it can be done. So

(01:16:56):
there are long term polyamorous situations a matter of you know,
kind of moving with how the relationship develops, keeping that
flexibility like you were talking about, and yeah, but it
can be done.

Speaker 5 (01:17:09):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:17:11):
Anybody else have a response, because I got one more
one more question.

Speaker 8 (01:17:15):
I'm too new to this.

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):
My question is that what do you do when things
aren't going so well and like your partner is trying
to practice monogamy non monogamy or like Polly because I
know earlier you said that you and your a person
had a disagreement or something like that and they went
out on a date and came back.

Speaker 3 (01:17:40):
I'll tell you this right now.

Speaker 2 (01:17:42):
If me and Mila are arguing and she wants to
step out that fucking door to go see a front.

Speaker 3 (01:17:48):
You sit your ass down. We are going to communicate.

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
I cannot imagine her talking about listen, I have a date.

Speaker 3 (01:17:56):
The down hierarchy me.

Speaker 5 (01:18:01):
That is absolutely a thing. Now.

Speaker 6 (01:18:04):
Fortunately, I will say my partner and I don't live together.
We're long distance, so there is a degree of separation
that can make it a little bit easier in some respects.
Sometimes that can be a good thing because it's like, Okay,
we're way too emotionally charged right now, I need some
space to process. Go over there, you know, like, go
be with that other person, Go get your cup filled.

Speaker 5 (01:18:27):
One of the things that happens.

Speaker 6 (01:18:29):
And I think it's because, like you know, so much
of our relationship experience is also wrapped up in our ego.
We use our relationships and we identify with our relationships
so much and giving ourselves a sense of worth. So
you know, if the thought of if I'm in conflict
with my partner and they go out with someone else,
they're going to enjoy that other person, and then now
that's going to be more threatening for me because this

(01:18:50):
other person is making them happy, and right now I
might not be making them happy because we're in a
conflict space. But one of the things that I've learned is,
you know, sometimes my partner interacting with someone else in
a positive way can give them a little bit more
in their resource bank, so that they can come to
the conflict with me from a fuller space. So in

(01:19:13):
going with someone else and being filled in a way,
it then gives them like a and then now they
can come back to the conflict with me from a
fuller space instead of from a depleted space.

Speaker 5 (01:19:24):
And so, you know, in.

Speaker 6 (01:19:25):
That particular situation, you know, he first of all, he
had already had the date plan. I'm not going to
tell you, Okay, well, because we're having a conflict, you
need to change your date, because that's just.

Speaker 5 (01:19:33):
Not you know that the other person.

Speaker 6 (01:19:38):
Also, I've been doing this for a while, and it
was important for me to take the time to self soothe,
which I just can't do, you know with him, you know,
and to like kind of process on my own. So
that way, when I did come back to the conflict
with him, you know, I kind of knew what it.

Speaker 5 (01:19:54):
Was, what was mine and what was his, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:19:57):
And I'm not saying I wasn't Patty, you know, I remember,
like I I remember, like you know, he was going
on a date with this person. This's this new person
that he's been seeing. The last time they went on
a date.

Speaker 5 (01:20:04):
He was all like, oh, we had this great time.
She was super present. We were like doing all.

Speaker 6 (01:20:09):
This eye gazing and stuff, and I don't like to
look people in the eyes. That makes me uncomfortable. So
I remember when he was telling me that he was
going out with her, and we had had this conflict,
you know, before he had left, and so was feeling
a little crunching.

Speaker 5 (01:20:17):
I was like, go be with your present, bitch.

Speaker 6 (01:20:20):
In my head, I was like, yes, go look up
in her eyes. And you know, you know, internally, internally,

(01:20:42):
I didn't say it to him, but I said it internally.

Speaker 5 (01:20:44):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:20:46):
But you know, once he he, you know, he came back.
We we talked, and we had a really great conversation.
And I'm very fortunate. You know that my partner and
I have excellent communication.

Speaker 5 (01:20:55):
It's very very gentle.

Speaker 6 (01:20:57):
And so we moved through conflict very beautifully, you know,
if I to do my own horn.

Speaker 5 (01:21:01):
But I did have my moment of feeling tender.

Speaker 6 (01:21:03):
You know, around he's going to be with this other
person and we're in.

Speaker 5 (01:21:06):
A conflict space.

Speaker 6 (01:21:08):
But you know, we don't tell our friends because if
we have like a beef with our friends, we don't say, okay,
well you can't hang out with none of your other friends.

Speaker 5 (01:21:17):
You know, while we're working through this, we don't do that,
you know, or you know, or if a friend said that.

Speaker 6 (01:21:22):
To a friend, did be Bb be like, I'm not
doing that, that's nuts, you know. So in my non
monogamous relationships, the same thing. I don't expect my partner's
relationships to just stop and halt because we may not
be in a good place, because all relationships go through
ups and downs and ebbs and flows, you know, non
monogamy is no different, And so I don't expect his

(01:21:44):
life outside of me to stop, you know, just because
you know we're in a conflict space. I have enough
trust in our relationship that we can navigate through the
conflict and he can go and interact with other people
and he can still come back to me with the
same commitment to move through our issues, and him interacting
with other people doesn't detract from that. So you know,
I would never say, Okay, well, you know, we're having

(01:22:04):
an argument, so you need to stay home. I'd be like, ye, okay, hey,
go on your date and when you come back, we'll
pick it back up.

Speaker 5 (01:22:09):
You know, the way it is.

Speaker 7 (01:22:12):
I think it might be different, well, at least for
me with nesting partners. Right, So I live with my husband,
So if he and I have a conflict and he
has a date, I'm with you, you need to suggest that
vice versa. Now, if I have a conflict with one
of my other partners and then I'm supposed to go
out with my husband, right, I'm not gonna not go
out with him because of that. And maybe that's where
the hierarchy comes in in some ways in that he

(01:22:36):
That's definitely a relationship that I prioritize and I want
to make sure we're good before I go out and
do anything else. But if I'm in conflict with my
other partners, I don't stop seeing the other people in
my life because of that conflict. And that just feels
it just feels like I don't know, I don't know
if it's because of the longevity of that relationship. We've
been together for twenty two years. Like I'm I'm always

(01:22:59):
making sure that we're okay before I do anything else,
and if we aren't, then I need to like work here, right,
this is where the energy needs.

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
To go for me, I mean, And essentially, if the
person that you started this poly thing with, if y'all
are not good.

Speaker 3 (01:23:11):
Then the whole thing isn't gonna work out.

Speaker 9 (01:23:14):
Yeah, Yeah, I feel like I'm in a similar situation
like me and my partner. I think at our base
is essentially it's a check in. And if we're having
a conflict and you're about to go get energy or
go give your energy to somebody else, we then both
recognize that one that's gonna leave me in a really
bad place, probably a worse place, And you also probably

(01:23:36):
won't be able to fully enjoy your experience too, because
you're gonna be in your head. And so I think
we just give each other the space to say, like,
if either of us is like, Babe, I'm uncomfortable about
this one, it's like, all right, you win, you got
the hierarchy. I'm gonna have to cancel my day. I
gotta be here for my primary partner right now. That's
kind of where we're at. But also I'm really loving

(01:23:59):
and I'm feeling like I've heard a lot of insightful
things today, which is the idea of like, you know,
maybe ash going and getting to see somebody else fill
their cup, come back lovingly and positive, and then we
can have a better conversation, you know.

Speaker 8 (01:24:16):
So I love all of these, all of these.

Speaker 9 (01:24:18):
Can work, and I feel like it's just finding what
it is that's going to work for you and your relationship.
And also, what I love about polyamory, at least the
way that me and my partner do it, is it's
very much in tune with our gender identities, in which
like how we wake up that day is how we
want to show up, and let's communicate that to each
other or to myself. Like I wake up today, I'm

(01:24:39):
feeling really cunt. I want to wear my crop top
and I want to feel more like a woman. I
want to feel more feminine in my relationship. It's like, Okay,
I don't think I can support you right now being
or us being in a threesome, or us going to
a play party, or you being on a date with
someone else, Like I really need home base right now.
So I think it's just giving each other the space

(01:25:01):
to show up with where we're at. And that's what
I really love about holly amory. And just like relationship anarchy.

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
I'm really I'm really too joky because all I can
think about is my girlfriend pissing me off and be like,
you know what I'm going out for a breather, going
out of my date with my my other girl. I'll
be back and we can talk about it. And you know,
when you're when you're something's on your chest, you can't
help but talk about it to the next person. I
can imagine going on the date talking about it, and

(01:25:28):
the person I'm dating going you know you're wrong about this.

Speaker 3 (01:25:30):
I'm like, both of you are idiots.

Speaker 4 (01:25:41):
Like I'm trying to try to picture like me doing
that getting in an argument, right you know, bab babes. Look, man,
I got this date. I don't got time for this
ship right now. Oh my god, I think my throat.

Speaker 6 (01:25:59):
I know that we're in conflict right now. I have
these plans with this other person, but I want you
to know that I love you, that you matter to me,
that I'm committed to resolving this conflict, and that we
can return to this when I return.

Speaker 5 (01:26:14):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:26:14):
So it's not necessarily like a lot I'm going to
go off and be with this other person. It's more
like a you know, I'm going to keep my commitment
that I made to this other person. But that's not
because I don't care about you. I think what's also
important that I had to learn in non monogamy that
we don't super get in monogamy because one of the
things that is part of monogamy is that we're supposed

(01:26:35):
to make our romantic relationship like.

Speaker 5 (01:26:38):
The most important relationship space that we're in.

Speaker 6 (01:26:41):
So, you know, I always encourage people when they're coming
to me my clients and they're like, oh, you know,
everybody comes to menominomally the first to be things to
look for as partners.

Speaker 5 (01:26:49):
I'm like, no, look for friends.

Speaker 6 (01:26:50):
Okay, flesh out your support system because if I'm going
through something with my partner and they're off with someone
else and they're being with someone else, I have a
myriad of people that I can call and be like, hey,
I need emotional support, and I'm intimate, I have intimate friendships,
I have close friendships, and so they can meet those
needs when my partner is not available. So having a

(01:27:13):
fully fleshed out support system is super super important because.

Speaker 5 (01:27:16):
You will have a moment where you know you need.

Speaker 6 (01:27:18):
Your partner and they're on a weekend with their LDR,
they're on an overnight and they're not available to you,
and it's learning how to not lean on your partner
so much for just being everything for you. But like
I said, having a more fully fleshed out system.

Speaker 9 (01:27:33):
I heard it really when I was in Coupled to Throat.
But one of the producers told me this beautiful analogy.
Well he wasn't even actually one of the producers. He
was one of the people, one of the welfare people
who's like taking care of us.

Speaker 8 (01:27:45):
They shared with me.

Speaker 9 (01:27:46):
They were like, you know, think about polyamory as like
you're building this beautiful home with your person, right You're
you're going to pick out the color of the walls,
how many rooms, how many bathrooms?

Speaker 6 (01:27:58):
Do da da?

Speaker 9 (01:27:59):
And it's a beautiful home. But sometimes you might want
to go to a hotel. Sometimes you might want to
go buy another home in another country. Just because you
own a home doesn't mean you stay there all day
long every day. You have time and space to experience
other beautiful places in the world. And if you want
to set roots in another place of the world, that's

(01:28:20):
also okay. But you can always go back home to
like your different places and each of them mean something
different to you.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
Yeah, you know one thing that's happened in my relationship, well,
two things happened as far as like conflict when I
used to be non monogamous. Was I don't know what
it was, but I felt the way about something. And
I had called my girlfriend and she was out with
who was one of her partners at the time, and
even with how I felt, you know, usually before a monogmously,

(01:28:46):
she's like, you know, you got to go home because
we need to speak now. I was like, you know,
bringing this up and telling her to stop whatever she's
doing to then have a conversation with me. Knowing the
reality of the situation and us and just us being humans,
I can see that this is not going to be
a great starter to this like confic resolution.

Speaker 3 (01:29:04):
Yeah. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:29:05):
And then another thing that's also happened, which I would
love to my own hornabont and I was so proud of,
was because my non monogamy relationship was like literally my
first one, and I would I had let her know
when I had an issue with one of my partners,
not even her and then just going to her like, hey,
I'm giving my time. It was actually the opposite, like

(01:29:26):
I was having an issue with my partner, but me
and my person were fine. Sorry, I was having issue
with another play partner, but me and my person girlfriend
was fine, and I had let her know like, hey,
babe had a great time and she is all great,
but I do need to take some time to rectify

(01:29:48):
this relationship with this other person after we're finishing our time.
So it just goes to like how I played on,
like on both sides with everything that y'all said, that,
even with having your person and having a conflict with
somebody else, even being comfortable enough to let your own
person know like hey, I want to rectify this relationship
over here and I'll be right back.

Speaker 6 (01:30:09):
And that's an important skill to learn in polyamory specifically,
is how to be in relationships that are in different spaces,
because in a perfect world, all of your relationships are
doing great all the time.

Speaker 5 (01:30:22):
But we don't live in a perfect world.

Speaker 6 (01:30:23):
So I might have one relationship that's doing really, really
well and one relationship where we're struggling and we're on
the rocks, and I can't stop everything that's going on
in my other relationship spaces in order to deal with
the one on the rocks, because if I do that,
that one will be fine, and then everybody else will
be on the rocks. So it's learning how to exist

(01:30:44):
in relationships in multiple spaces and show up to all
the different spaces that your relationships are in.

Speaker 5 (01:30:50):
And that's a skill. That's something that we have to learn.

Speaker 6 (01:30:53):
It's not something that we're kind of you know, developed
or already because you know, we're used to relating monogamously.

Speaker 9 (01:31:00):
Yeah, who, what's like, I'm curious. It's just made me think,
what's like the most common thing that comes up amongst
multiple partners as an issue within like your polyamorous spaces.

Speaker 6 (01:31:17):
Oh, I think it's really hard to say is something
coming up commonly, just because you know, there's so many
different circumstances. I would probably say the thing that comes
up the most common is people have the idea of

(01:31:37):
what they're going to experience nominogamy, and then the reality
of what they actually are going to experience is often
wildly different. I also think that people struggle with if
you're entering as a couple, because obviously not everybody enters
into nominogamy from a couple of space, but a lot
of couples do, I think, not really recognizing that polyamory

(01:31:59):
is very much an end of visual journey and so
even if you do, even if you and a partner
are dating the same person, you each are going to
have a.

Speaker 5 (01:32:08):
Different experience with that person.

Speaker 6 (01:32:10):
So one of the things that was hardest for me
in non monogamy is experiencing what I called the breaking
open of my relationship. It was when I me and
my husband became two separate individuals, which was just not
something that I really considered. Even in our marriage vels
it says the two shall become one flesh. So you
move through the work life thinking that they want to

(01:32:32):
do life the way I do.

Speaker 5 (01:32:33):
They want to do, you know, friendship the way I do.

Speaker 6 (01:32:35):
They want to do all these things the way I do,
and you don't really stop and think.

Speaker 5 (01:32:38):
It was one of the.

Speaker 6 (01:32:39):
Spaces where I was like, oh, he's a whole, separate
human being apart from me. He has different ideas, he
has different relationship needs. And it was like the first
time I was really faced with that. And so like,
this belief that your experience and your partner's experience is
going to be the same is one of those ones
that I'm like, mmm, okay, let me know how that goes.

(01:33:00):
I remember getting into non monogamy with my partner and
thinking like I was going to have all of these
relationships and partnerships because I'm the extrovert and I'm the
social butterfly and he's the introvert and whatever, and he
I felt like he had way more success than I
did when I got in and it was a mind fuck, Like,
you know, I was like, what has going on?

Speaker 3 (01:33:19):
You know?

Speaker 6 (01:33:19):
Said it was really hard for me to navigate that.
And so I think that, like I said, people have
their ideas for what they're going to experience and what
they want experience, and then the reality of what actually
happens can sometimes really really be jarring.

Speaker 5 (01:33:32):
So yeah, I think.

Speaker 7 (01:33:34):
That piece around having different you're especially if you have
a primary partner and you all have having different experiences
is such a big one, right because if I look
at our polyamor's journey, like I've had pretty much to
partners since we started on this journey and he's had his,
just haven't had longevity, and so like that can also
feel interesting, right for people? Is that kind of like

(01:33:56):
why is it that you're out here having these relationships
that are lasting longer? And are I'm either not finding
people that I'm connecting with or if I do have
relationships their shorter term. And I think that can be
hard for people. So that's also just a thing that's
sometimes like at least what we've experienced that nobody is
saying anywhere that.

Speaker 5 (01:34:16):
No, that was hard for me too.

Speaker 6 (01:34:17):
That was my experience as well. Like I had a
lot of dates, so dating was easy. But for one,
even though I am bisexual, I was largely dating men
because they're just easier to find, honestly, and and yeah everywhere. Yeah,
And I didn't have a lot of experience with dating women,
so I didn't know how I didn't even know how

(01:34:38):
to do that.

Speaker 8 (01:34:39):
And so.

Speaker 6 (01:34:41):
What I found, what my experience was is it was
very easy to get men to sleep with me. But
when I wanted to actually have like relationships assustance, like
they were literally like, why would I take you out?

Speaker 5 (01:34:51):
You have a husband, That's what your husband does, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:34:53):
So when I was just dating whomever, now I restrict
myself to the non monogamous community, so I just don't
even date monogamous people at all because I'm just like why,
you know, what's the point. So but at that time,
I was just like, Okay, I'm on dating apps, let
me meet people, et cetera. And when I was meeting men,
that weren't you know, uh uh non monogamous. They would
be like, okay, well why would I want to have
a relationship with you? Whereas you know, my husband was

(01:35:16):
dating women, and so he had a harder time finding
people to date because a lot of women, you know,
once he told them they were married, they.

Speaker 5 (01:35:22):
Were like no, no, no, no no no.

Speaker 6 (01:35:24):
But when he did find someone, it was like a
relationship was very easy for him to form, whereas like
I had all these one offs and two offs and whatever,
but like finding actual partnership was a struggle.

Speaker 5 (01:35:34):
So I was your husband, you know, and that I.

Speaker 6 (01:35:35):
Would have these partnerships they'd be short lived where it's like,
you know, he would have partners that lasted a really
long time.

Speaker 5 (01:35:40):
So like one of his girlfriends, he was with her
for like seven years, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:35:44):
And so yeah, so and that was challenging because, like
I said that, keeping your eyes on your own paper,
it's hard not to look over and.

Speaker 3 (01:35:51):
Go right thirteen.

Speaker 2 (01:36:00):
Yeah, can we do a deep breath for the uh.
I want to let y'all know that was amazing. I
knew y'all are amazing as soon as I touched eyes
on each one of y'all and this truly is the
reason why we do this podcast. So like conversations like
this can like blast down and people can hear it.

(01:36:22):
I wish I can speak to y'all forever, honestly, But
the essence is that, y'all we all have people to
go home too.

Speaker 3 (01:36:29):
We gotta go.

Speaker 2 (01:36:29):
But I do want to have a conversation another time
about like how how being Polly applies to like real
life situations like finances, kids, like you know, traveling, like
all those things. So hopefully soon we can get like
on a zoom episode or something like that, because I'm
not gonna be in New York, but we can get
on a zoomer or something like that, and we could
like have those kinds of conversations. I would love to

(01:36:50):
like deep dive deeper into that.

Speaker 3 (01:36:52):
That would be great.

Speaker 2 (01:36:54):
Let's get an outro going, right, Let's all promote wherever
we're from and what we have, whatever we want to promote,
and and get y'all.

Speaker 3 (01:37:01):
Out of here, all right.

Speaker 6 (01:37:02):
So you can find me on Instagram at Levita looka
thirty four. I do a lot of poly education there.
My book, Oh my god, how can I forget the
name of my own book? It's three hundred and sixty
five daily reflections for the consentually nominogamous.

Speaker 5 (01:37:17):
It's a polyamory devotional.

Speaker 6 (01:37:18):
You can find that an Amazon, Barnes and Noble bookshop,
dot Org, Thorntree or thorn Apple Press is my publisher.
I will also be in London on Sunday, so for
the UK peets, I will be in London. I'll also
be at Southwest LoveFest and Tucson, Arizona. I'll be doing
a workshop there. And I would like to leave off

(01:37:39):
with a quote by Ramdas and it's about relationships and
it says, will you help me awaken by sharing your
truth with me? It may not be comfortable for me
to hear, but that is my work. So let's build
relationships that are built on truth.

Speaker 1 (01:37:56):
And so there there we go.

Speaker 7 (01:37:57):
I love that you find me on all socials at
I am doctor mel I am on TikTok and Instagram.

Speaker 5 (01:38:05):
Mostly.

Speaker 7 (01:38:07):
I do have a coaching program that is a lot
is opening up in April, so if I'm sorry, may so,
if you follow me on social you will get all
of those announcements. I am really that person who will
help you do that unlearning right. I am all about dismantling, decolonizing,
helping you, especially as a woman. No, no, not to

(01:38:28):
the men, but I'm over here serving my women or
my female identified per people, just letting go of the
things that keep us stuck, that have us still believing
these stereotypes, and the things that don't allow us to
step fully into our truth, including either being no monogamous
if you would like to do that with your life,

(01:38:48):
or be polyamorous. So if you need some work as
you are on this journey, come find me. I also
have a journal that's coming out right around the same
time as my coaching program, Noise.

Speaker 9 (01:39:02):
You can find me on Instagram or TikTok at Maximo Extravaganza,
no E and Extravaganza. You can also find me on
Twitter Maximo Extrava. I'm also a photographer and I specialize
in shooting LGBTQI plus individuals, specifically by POC, transgender nonconforming people.

(01:39:23):
If you need headshots, if you want to just feel cute,
if you need some editorial, whatever you want, hit me up.
Also coming up next month. Next month, yeah, we have
our next chapter of Susia Queer, produced by ash Myself
in partnership with Susia NYC. So if you want to
come check out a really safe or brave queer places,

(01:39:47):
check out Sussi a queer.

Speaker 8 (01:39:48):
Fill out your vetting form. We'd love to get to
meet you.

Speaker 9 (01:39:51):
And if you want a cameo, I'm on cameo now too,
because she's a reality star.

Speaker 8 (01:39:55):
I guess.

Speaker 9 (01:39:58):
If you need a birthday, if you need a shout out,
if you need me to read someone, break up with someone,
anything you want, you just hit me up. Yeah, And
I just want to say thank y'all for having me.
Thank you for sharing the space with me. I'm a
newbie to this, so it's just really insightful to be
here with y'all and hearing all of your insights and experiences.

Speaker 8 (01:40:19):
Really humble to just be in the room. So thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:40:21):
I have one more thing to plug.

Speaker 6 (01:40:23):
I'm also an assistant coach for the Intentional Polyamory Cohort
with Shane Speaks. It's like kind of like a six
week polyamory boot camp where we do these four pillars
and we help people navigate through some of these early
pitfalls from transitioning from monogamy to now monogamy. And so
if you're interested in having a community to learn how
to navigate polyamory with like I said VI to Loka

(01:40:44):
thirty four and I'll have information about the cohort there.

Speaker 3 (01:40:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:40:47):
Yes, so awesome. I love beautiful people.

Speaker 4 (01:40:50):
Susia NYC, Brooklyn Lou Susia Queer Sam, Susia Bodigin.

Speaker 3 (01:40:56):
I am Orlando himself.

Speaker 2 (01:40:57):
You can find me at wh Underscore.

Speaker 3 (01:41:01):
Orlando. I'm on that name for a second. Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:41:07):
And we are lips to Lifestyle Me the Big Day Babbage,
my amazing co host right here, Luise who holds it
down so wonderfully. And this is conversations about the lifestyle
from the Lifestyle.

Speaker 3 (01:41:18):
Please please

Speaker 4 (01:41:23):
La la la a lah like this

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