August 23, 2025 • 54 mins
In the summer of 2012, Dave Kroupa of Omaha, Nebraska was getting back into the dating scene after the end of a long-term relationship. He was looking for something casual and fun, but instead he ended up being part of a deadly love triangle involving two women - Liz Golyar and Cari Farver. But who was the stalker and who was the victim? It would take investigators years to unravel the mystery in this story of love, jealousy and obsession.
Original Love Marry Kill air date: 11/13/2023
Support us on Patreon
Sources:
Original Love Marry Kill air date: 11/13/2023
Support us on Patreon
Sources:
- A Tangled Web, by Leslie Rule
- Dateline season 26, episode 1, Scorned
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l55FRpIk30E
- https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ne-supreme-court/1962008.html
- https://farverscholarship.org/
- https://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/police-develop-ruse-liz-golyar-admit-killing-cari-74549312
- https://www.perlego.com/book/3509844/the-cereal-killer-chronicles-of-battle-creek-pdf
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Tina and I'm Rich.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Welcome to love Mary Kel Just the facts.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Okay, so today's case. I kind of alluded to it earlier,
but this is probably the most insane story that I've
researched so far. All the podcasts I listened to about this,
everyone started with this story is the craziest story, and
I was like, yeah, whatever, it's a crazy story. It's
a story of jealousy, obsession, and cruelty that went on
way too long before some tenacious investigators finally uncovered the truth.
(00:45):
It actually reminds me a little bit of the movie
Fatal Attraction, but it's crazier than that. And it is
kind of a long story. It's going to be a
two parter, and it's going to be a wild ride,
So yes, buckle up. Our story begins in the summer
of twenty two twelve. Thirty four year old Dave Krupa
had recently ended a long term relationship, like thirteen or
(01:06):
fourteen years long, with a woman named Amy Flora, who
was the mother of his two children. Dave was a
good guy, but not someone who wanted to be tied down.
While Amy wanted to get married. Dave was never on
board with the idea, and eventually the couple decided to
call it quits. Dave moved out of their house in
Council Bluffs, Iowa, to a sparsely furnished bachelor pad apartment
(01:29):
about twenty minutes away across the Missouri River in Omaha, Nebraska,
which was near where he worked managing an auto repair shop.
They agreed to work together for the sake of the kids, though,
who were eleven and nine at this time. Dave and
Amy maintained a friendly relationship and Dave saw the kids regularly.
(01:49):
After Dave moved into his new apartment, he decided it
was time to get out there and start dating again.
Even though he hadn't been married, he had been as
good as married for the last dozen or so years,
so getting back into the dating world was a little
bit scary. He quickly found that things had changed since
he was last on the market, because there was a
whole new world of dating apps out there where one
(02:11):
could meet and date as many women as he wanted.
This suited Dave because while he wanted to have fun
and socialize, he absolutely did not want commitment. He was
independent and determined to stay that way. He made it
clear on his dating profile that he was looking for
something casual, and he was up front with that requirement
whenever he met anyone in person. The first woman that
(02:35):
Dave met online was Shanna Gallier, better known as Liz.
She was about his age, had two kids around the
same age as his, and they seemed to hit her off.
They saw each other four or five times in the
summer of twenty twelve before Dave finally worked up the
nerve to kiss her. She asked what had taken him
so long, and he replied, because I don't know what
(02:56):
the fuck I'm doing. Their relationship became intimate and they
seemed to have chemistry together. Dave and Liz had fun
and the sex was good, but he made it clear
to her that he was going to see other women,
and he encouraged her to see other guys. She said
that just wasn't her style. Dave said, fine, but don't
expect me to change. Despite Dave setting clear boundaries up front,
(03:20):
Liz could be very clingy and she was always pushing
him for more of a commitment. She got jealous of
amy when Dave would go over to her house to
spend time with his kids. Liz would sometimes show up
at Dave's apartment without warning, and she would send him
long emails about their relationship and looking for him to
make a commitment.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Oh boy.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
She would ask to just make a one month commitment.
Dave would say no, or at times he would half
heartedly agree to some type of short term exclusivity just
to kind of move on from the discussion. He cared
about Liz and he didn't want to hurt her, so
he kept the relationship going, but he kept her at
arm's length while she kept pushing for more.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Did Liz think that Dave was her twin flame?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I don't know. We should talk about twin Flames sometime.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
We're watching to show on Amazon called It's not called
twin Flame, it's Space on the podcast twin Flames. We
can talk about that at the end.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, it's a pretty crazy story actually. So Dave casually
dated some other women that he met online, but in
the fall of twenty twelve, he met Carrie Farvar in
a more traditional way. She came into his shop to
have some repair work done on her Ford Explorer. He
was instantly attracted to her, and he sensed that she
was attracted to him as well. He wanted to ask
(04:38):
her out right there, but he thought, well, what if
I've misread the situation. I could get into a lot
of trouble at work if I asked her out and
she's not interested. So he kept it professional and she
left the shop, but he didn't stop thinking about her,
and lo and behold two weeks later, whose profile does
he come across? And his dating app? Carrie Farver's. He
sent her a message saying, hey, I know you. She responded,
(05:02):
and a little while later she stopped back in his
shop to chat and they exchanged phone numbers. It turned
out Dave hadn't misread the signals he was getting from Carrie.
In fact, after she left the shop the first time,
she actually created an account on the plenty of Fish
dating site, hoping that Dave was on the site and
that they would connect. Dave and Carrie's first date was
(05:24):
on a Monday evening, October twenty ninth of twenty twelve.
They met at Applebee's in the mall and they hit
it off right away. Dave could see that Carrie was smart, funny,
and easygoing. She was a software developer for a company
called West Corporation, which happened to be located walking distance
from Dave's apartment. Carrie lived about thirty miles east of
(05:47):
Omaha in the small town of Macedonia, Iowa, where she
had grown up. She was thirty seven, twice married and
twice divorced, and she had full custody of her fourteen
year old son Maxwell. Her mom Nancy and her stepdad
Mark also lived in Macedonia, and they helped carry by
having Maxwell stay with them whenever she needed. While they
(06:10):
were at Applebee's on their first date, Dave's phone started
blowing up with texts and calls. He saw that it
was Liz, and he did his best to ignore it
so as not to be rude to carry. But after
about twenty texts and calls within a ten minute period,
he thought that something might be seriously wrong, so he
excused himself and he called Liz back. She said that
(06:30):
she had less some things at his apartment and she
really needed them back. He told her that he was
on a date and that he was sure it could wait.
He hung up and went back to Carrie. They finished eating,
hung out a bit longer, and then Dave asked Carrie
if she wanted to come back to his place and
she agreed. Once they got back to Dave's apartment, his
phone started blowing up again, and soon after that, his
(06:52):
apartment intercom buzzer went off. It was Liz saying, I
need my stuff now. Dave said, you don't need to
come in now. I'll bring your stuff to you later.
But Liz started crying and she wouldn't leave.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Do you know where Liz lived in relation to Dave.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I don't know exactly, but she was in Omaha also,
so I think it was probably relatively close.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
So she may have been like parked and saw him
enter with another woman.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
It's very possible. Yeah, So Dave explained the situation to
Carrie and he apologized profusely. Carrie seemed to be a
good sport about it. She laughed it off. She said,
no worries, We've all been there. Just give me a
call when you've got things straightened out. So Dave walked
Carrie out, passed Liz, who was at the entrance of
the apartment.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Awkward.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Yeah, the two women didn't say anything to each other.
Liz came in to get her stuff, but she didn't
want to leave. She wanted to argue, but Dave just
wanted to get rid of her, which he finally did
right away. After she left, he called Carrie, who was
not quite home yet. She said, Hey, why don't you
come over to my place? It was nine pm on
a Monday night and a forty minute drive, but Dave
(07:56):
did not hesitate. Carrie had a charming little two badhouse
built in eighteen seventy that had belonged to her grandparents.
Maxwell her son was staying at Carrie's parents house for
the night, so she and Dave had the place to themselves.
They had some coffee, and soon they started kissing. Before
things went any further, Carrie told Dave that she wasn't
(08:17):
looking for a commitment, that she just wanted something casual
and to have some fun. Dave later said, I felt
like I hit the jackpot. She was smart, fun, sexy,
had her act kicked together, and she wanted the exact
same thing out of a relationship that he did. He
ended up staying the night and they saw each other
regularly over the next couple of weeks, in between work
(08:38):
and kids. Between his chemistry with Carrie and Liz's behavior,
Dave was pretty much done with Liz, and he told
her that they should take a break. But Liz wasn't
ready to let go. A few days after Dave's first
date with Carrie, Liz sent him a long, rambling email.
I'm going to have you read just a small part
(08:58):
of it, if you don't mind, just so you can
get an idea of Liz's mindset.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I know you don't know what will happen down the road,
and you really don't want to think about it. Are
you asking for the long break so you can forget everything?
I'm going to give it to you, so don't worry.
I was just wondering. Sorry, I guess I need closure.
Do I forget everything about us? I'm going to date others,
but if no one catches my eye, do I get
to hope time makes the heart grow fonder? Or do
(09:26):
you want to go and never come back. I'm not
saying we will ever get back together. I'm just asking
do I go and never look back? I guess I hope,
even if you're dating others, that you look back and
you'll smile when you think of me, that someday you'll
let me back in, no matter what it be a
friend or whatever.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Good job.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
No man wants to receive this, by the way, no, no,
I shouldn't say man, no one that you're dating, like
if you break it off man or woman, like you
don't want this. You wouldn't be like, oh yeah, let's
let's give it another try. Ye, that would solidify your Yeah,
I definitely want to be done here for sure.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
So and I think the email went out a lot
longer than that as well. It was just a portion
of it. She ended the email by saying she would
understand if he wanted to stop talking to her, but
then she emailed again a few minutes later, saying that
she hadn't hugged him the last time she'd seen him,
because it would have felt like a goodbye. Dave didn't
reply to either email. It didn't seem like a response
was warranted, But that was apparently not okay with Liz,
(10:26):
because she emailed him again the next day, saying, well,
thank you for no response to email. I get the answer,
that's it. Later a few days after this, Liz called
him saying she just remembered that she had left some
pans at his place, so he offered to bring them
to her. When he got there, she got very flirty
and they ended up having sex. Dave, I know, Dave is. Yeah,
(10:53):
he's not the best at this whole thing. He and Carrie.
Dave and Carrie had both agreed that they weren't exclusive,
so he wasn't cheating on Carrie, and in his mind
it was just one last fling with Liz. But of
course she's an idiot. Yeah, she emailed him. Lizzy emailed
him a few days later asking if he would be
comfortable grabbing a drink or dinner with her sometime, just
(11:16):
as friends, acting very casual about it. So Carrie back
to her She had a big project going on at
her work that was going to require her to work
long hours for a week. Since Dave's apartment was so
close to her work, he offered to have her stay
for a few nights, and she took him up on it.
This would save for almost two hours of commuting time
(11:36):
each day. Her son Maxwell had a great relationship with
her mom and stepdad, so he was fine staying with
them for a few days. On Tuesday, the thirteenth of November,
Dave had to be at work by six point thirty
in the morning. When he left at six twenty five,
Carrie was in her pajamas, sitting on his couch with
her laptop out and a bunch of works spread out
(11:58):
around her on the couch. Dave gave her a kiss
and said he would see her later in the evening.
She seemed happy and content. He was looking forward to
seeing her later when he got back. They had been
seeing each other for two weeks and she seemed just
about perfect to him. He had no way of knowing
at that time how quickly and dramatically things would change. Oh,
(12:21):
here's what we know about Carrie Farver's actions. On the
morning of November thirteenth, at six fifteen am, she called
into her work and she left a message with an
update about the code that she was working on. At
six twenty five, as I mentioned, Dave left for his job,
leaving Carrie and her pajamas working on the couch. At
six thirty nine am, Carrie logged into Facebook from her laptop.
(12:44):
She had received a friend request from someone named Sam Carter,
who claimed to be from her hometown of Macedonia. She
didn't know him, which was strange because Macedonia's population was
only around two hundred and forty people, plus he had
spelled Macedonia wrong, but she messaged him that morning asking
do I know you? And then she logged off of
Facebook at six forty two am. At nine fifty four am,
(13:09):
Carrie's phone logged into Facebook and she unfriended Dave krupa h.
Twenty minutes later, a text came from Carrie's phone to
Dave asking if they should move in together. Dave thought
that's weird because they had agreed to keep things casual.
He was busy at work as well, and so he
(13:30):
just texted back a one word response. No seconds later,
a text came back from Carrie quote fine, fuck you.
I'm seeing somebody else. Don't contact me again. I hate you.
Go away unquote oh boy. Dave was shocked, but he
was also busy at work, and so he put it
aside for the moment, and he didn't respond. By mid morning,
(13:53):
Carrie's supervisor at work was surprised when she hadn't shown
up yet. She had gotten Carrie's message that she had
left at six fifteen am, so it was clear that
Carrie was working on stuff that morning. Her supervisor called
and left a message, and tried again a few times
later in the day, but there was no response. When
Dave finished work for the day and returned to his apartment,
(14:14):
he wasn't sure what to expect. Would Carrie be there,
would they fight? It was just so strange, the message
that she had sent him earlier, when things had been
going so well between them. He went into his apartment
and there was no trace of Carrie. She and all
her stuff were gone, like she had never been there.
He was baffled, but at the same time, he thought
(14:36):
to himself, well, I guess I dodged a bullet. It's
hard to know what a person is really like after
just a couple of weeks, and apparently he had completely
misread Carrie as someone who was easy going, reasonable and
drama free, and this just reaffirmed his commitment to not committing.
He didn't need the drama in his life. Meanwhile, Carrie's mom, Nancy,
(14:57):
started getting worried when she hadn't heard from Carrie. They
normally talked or texted every day. Nancy tried calling Carrie
several times to see when she was going to pick
up Max, but she never got a response. When Carrie
didn't show up for her half brother's wedding that weekend,
Nancy became really concerned. She knew that Carrie wouldn't miss
(15:18):
the wedding. Carrie's father. Nancy's ex husband was dying of
stomach cancer, and her half brother had pushed the wedding
up so that he could be there. But when Carrie
didn't show up to the rehearsal dinner or the wedding,
Nancy reported her missing.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
How long had she been missing?
Speaker 3 (15:36):
So Tuesday was the day that she went missing, and
then I think the rehearsal dinner was Friday, so it
was a few days. Okay. The officer who took the
missing person's report didn't seem too concerned. After all, Carrie
was a grown woman. She could do what she wanted.
It wasn't long after Carrie's disappearance that the harassment started.
Dave started receiving angry texts from Carrie's phone. Usually Liz
(16:01):
was the target of the texts, referring to her as
a quote fat, ugly whore, and other nasty names. Liz
also started getting texts and emails from Carrie, and even worse,
her garage was broken into and someone painted the words
whorror from Dave on her garage wall. Liz also discovered
that a check book had been stolen, and she reported
(16:22):
both the theft and the vandalism to the Omaha police.
Dave hadn't really planned on seeing Liz again, but when
she told him about the harassment and the vandalism, he
felt bad, and he didn't blame her for being upset.
He felt guilty, after all, he had brought this crazy
carry woman into their lives. Shortly after the incident in
(16:43):
Liz's garage, Nancy got a text from her daughter's phone
with a picture of a check made out to Carrie
and signed with the name Shanna Gallier, Liz's legal name.
The message from Carrie said that she had sold her
bedroom set to Shanna and asked her mom to let
Shanna into her house to pick it up. Nancy didn't
(17:04):
believe that it was really Carrie, and so she replied saying,
I need to hear your voice so I know it's
really you. The reply from Carrie's phone called Nancy a
controlling bad mother, and there was no call to confirm
or to hear Carrie's voice. Nancy followed up with the
police after this exchange, more certain now that something had
(17:25):
happened to Carrie or that someone had kidnapped her. The
police again didn't seem too worried. They took a copy
of the text and the photo of the check and
they added it to the file. While Nancy believed that
Carrie hadn't chosen to disappear, there was some doubt in
the back of her mind. Carrie had been diagnosed with
bipolar disorder years earlier. Nancy had always doubted the diagnosis,
(17:49):
believing that Carrie suffered more from general anxiety as opposed
to the extreme mood swings that come with bipolar disorder.
But maybe Carrie was having some type of man episode.
She had left her meds behind, after all. When Nancy
mentioned this to the police, they seemed to take this
as a confirmation that Carrie must have left on her
own volition.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
I'm sorry, it seems like the police have missed a
few steps here.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
It seems like it, but you know, at the same time, but.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
The whole check incident is very strange.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, it is a little strange. Although the police didn't
seem super concerned, they actually did do some investigations. I'll
talk about that now. On Monday the nineteenth, so six
days after Carrie had vanished and three days after Nancy
reported her missing, an officer interviewed Carrie's supervisor at West Corporation.
She told the officer that Carrie hadn't shown up for
(18:41):
work on Tuesday, and then later in the week she
had gotten a text from Carrie saying that she was
resigning and moving to Kansas to take a new job.
The police also contacted Verizon to get Carrie's phone records
and her ping locations. The pings showed that her phone
was still in Omaha. They drove around the area of
the pings, which only provide a rough location, to see
(19:04):
if they could spot her Ford Explorer, but they came
up empty. They also had the photo of the check
that Carrie's mom had shared. The checks were starter checks.
There was no name or address on them, but they
could read the signature clearly Shanna Gallier. They didn't know
who this was, so keep in mind the detectives investigating
Carrie as a missing person were on the Iowa side
(19:25):
of the border, and the detectives who had taken Liz's
report of vandalism and theft were from Nebraska. But they
talked to Liz, who told them that she and Carrie
had both dated this guy, Dave Krupa, and that Carrie
had been harassing her and had stolen her checkbook. She
also gave them Dave's contact info. They stopped in to
see Dave at his work, and he confirmed that both
(19:47):
he and Liz were getting harassing texts and emails from
this crazy Carrie Farver woman. He didn't know that she
had been reported as missing, and he promised to let
the police know if he saw her. Soon after the
officer left Dave's place of work, he meaning the officer,
got a text from Carrie himself. It said, quote, I
(20:10):
don't care about this missing person report, but I would
really appreciate it if you would leave Dave Krupa out
of it. I will be leaving the state. My mother overreacted.
I have been to my house a few times unquote.
The officer responded, saying they needed to speak with her
to verify that she was okay, otherwise she would remain
a missing person in the database. The response from Carrie said, quote,
(20:33):
Dave texted me and said you had the sheriff at
his work. Please stop talking to people. I have nothing
to say to anyone. I want one person to go
away for destroying everything for me. Apparently she met Liz.
By the end of November, Dave was getting over sixty
texts and emails a day from Carrie's phone boy. One night,
he got a text saying, I see you in the
(20:55):
chair with your feet propped up. You're wearing your blue
T shirt. Both of those things were true, which freaked
Dave out. He ran outside, but he didn't see Kerrie.
He would try to block her number or her email,
but she would just start texting from different numbers and
different email addresses. He got a new phone number, but
somehow she found out his new number, and the harassment continued.
(21:18):
Let's take a quick break.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
I just had an incredible sense of deja vu, and
I realized that I've heard.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
This case before. You have, Okay, I wonder it's I
think it's a fairly well known case.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
So I must have watched a datelin on. Okay, here's
a dateline up.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Oh yeah, Keith Morrison. It's a good talking.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
About the texting in the blue shirt. I was like,
oh wait a minute, I know this.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Oh man, I thought I had a new one.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Remember it. I don't remember it very well. I just
a little bit sorry.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
That's okay, all right, So the harassment is going on
here Amy Dave's X and the mother of his children
also started getting dozens of threatening messages a day from
Carrie warning her to leave Dave alone. Dave started getting
worried for his kid's safety and wouldn't let them out
of his sight when they were together. On November twenty first,
a post appeared on Carrie's Facebook page saying that she
(22:17):
was moving to Kansas for a great job and that
she would miss her family and friends. A few days later,
another post appeared saying, Hey, got a great guy, David
Krupa moving down to Kansas. Now. If I can get
my son to move with me, I'd be so happy.
The weird thing was that her son Max, told his
grandparents that his mom had actually talked about possibly moving
(22:39):
to Kansas at some point. So even though Nancy believed
that it wasn't her daughter making these posts, she still
had like a sliver of doubt. By the end of November, though,
Nancy and her husband Mark took action to become Max's
legal guardian, knowing that it could be reversed if Carrie
showed up and was in her right mind. They also
(22:59):
reported Car's car, which was in their name, as being stolen,
hoping that it would be another avenue to help hopefully
locate Carrie. On December seventh, Carrie's dad, Dennis, the one
who had been battling stomach cancer, passed away in hospice. Yeah,
it's really sad because she wasn't there, and you know
(23:20):
she would have been there for him. Soon after that, Nancy,
who had remained good friends with Carrie's dad even after
they divorced, had a vivid dream where Dennis told her
not to worry that Carrie was with him. She woke
up in tears, now believing that Carrie was probably dead,
but it would take a long long time before she
(23:41):
knew for sure whether that was the case. Even though
Dave had pretty much dumped Liz before all this craziness started,
the harassment that they were both experiencing actually brought them
back together. You know, they had this kind of shared experience.
They could vent to each other about crazy Carrie as
they started referring to her, and it almost seems like
(24:02):
Liz got exactly what she wanted. At this point, You
might be wanting to know more about Shanna aka Liz
Gallier Shanna Kay, which was her name at birth, grew
up in Kalamazoo, Michigan, in.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Nineteen and no Kalamazoo.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Yeah, it's a great place. In nineteen seventy eight, when
she was almost three years old, the state of Michigan
removed Shanna and her little brother, fifteen month old George,
from their home. This was because their dad, Al was
a violent, abusive alcoholic who regularly beat up their mom d.
After the kids were taken away, d kicked Al out
of the house, and the social workers approved having the
(24:41):
children return back home. Before that happened, though, tragedy struck
d was walking home from the laundromat where she had
been washing the linens in preparation for her children's return home.
The laundromat was only four blocks away from home, but
an eighteen year old driver had an epileptic seizure and
veered off the road, striking and killing Dee, who was
(25:02):
less than two weeks away from her twenty ninth birthday.
After that, Shanna and George went into foster care, bouncing
around to a few households before ending up adopted by
Ronald and Teresa Gallier of Battle Creek. At that point,
Shanna's name was changed from Shana Kay to Shanna Elizabeth Gallier.
(25:23):
In nineteen eighty one, when Shanna was five, her foster
grandmother was murdered at age forty six, shot and killed
by her ex boyfriend in a battle Creek bar.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Wow that's a lot.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Yeah, so her childhood was certainly marred by trauma. Shanna
got married at twenty then divorced at twenty two. She
then started dating a guy named Raymond Nich who she
worked with at a plastics factory, and she found out
she was pregnant in early nineteen ninety eight. Nich bought
a trailer for the two of them to live in,
(25:55):
but when she was eight months pregnant, Shanna moved in
with another guy by the name of Glenn hur. She
told Raymond that Glenn was just her roommate, but it
soon became clear that there was more to their relationship.
Cody Nathaniel Gallier was born in August of nineteen ninety eight.
He was a difficult, calicky baby who cried a lot.
(26:15):
In January of nineteen ninety nine, when Cody was five
months old, Shanna called Glenn at work, saying, I dropped
the baby. You need to get home. By the time
Glenn got home, Cody was sleeping and he seemed fine,
but the next day, while Shanna was at work and
Glenn and his mom were with the baby, Cody seemed
unusually quiet, and then Glenn's mother saw that the baby
(26:37):
wasn't breathing.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Oh no.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Glenn called nine one one while his mother performed CPR,
but sadly, baby Cody died.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
The cause of death was determined to be shaken baby syndrome.
The police grilled Glen, who was a bit slow mentally,
and he admitted that he had bounced Cody on his
knee and liked to toss him in the air while
they were playing, so maybe he was responsible for Cody's death.
The doctor who examined Cody said that his death had
been the result of at least twenty seconds of vigorous shaking,
(27:09):
so it's unlikely that bouncing Cody on his knee or
playfully tossing him up in the air would have actually
caused his death. And Glenn either didn't mention Shanna's call
the day before about dropping the baby or the police
didn't care. They decided that they had their man. Glenn
was arrested and charged with second degree murder. Glenn's mom
(27:29):
ran into Shanna at Walmart, a couple of days after
Cody died, a couple had offered to buy Shanna a
new wardrobe to take her mind off of losing her baby,
and apparently it worked, because Shanna seemed cheerful and happy,
not like a grieving mother as you might expect. Glenn's
mom was shocked. At Glenn's trial, Shanna testified and read
(27:52):
to the jury several letters that she claimed he had
sent her from jail. One of the letters asked Shanna
to cover for him and say that she had dropped Cody.
Glenn's mom was sure that Shanna had written the letters.
Her son had a learning disability and they were much
more articulate than he would have been. But nonetheless, Glenn
was convicted and sentenced to eight and a half to
(28:13):
twenty five years in prison.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Soon after Glenn's conviction, Shanna left Michigan and she headed
to Omaha. She actually had a felony warrant for her
arrest in Michigan for stealing a car, and so she
apparently decided it would be best if she skipped town.
I don't have a lot of information about how Liz
spent her first ten years in Omaha. I do know
that soon after moving there, she got pregnant and she
(28:38):
had a little girl. I don't know who the father is.
But when her daughter was two years old, Liz met
a different guy. She got pregnant again and gave birth
to a boy. Liz and this guy split up, though,
because he couldn't take Liz's constant jealousy. Soon after they split,
he started dating another woman. In what was maybe a
preview of things to come, Liz started harassing her ex
(29:02):
and his new girlfriend, banging on their apartment door late
at night, calling the guy when the couple was together,
keeing the girlfriend's car, causing thirty seven hundred dollars worth
of damage. No one had seen Liz do it, though,
and so she wasn't charged. Soon after that incident, Liz
left a tearful voicemail for her ex boyfriend apologizing, and
(29:22):
she followed up by sending six cookies. The funny thing is, though,
that the cookies arrived in two separate packages, one containing
four cookies labeled with the guy's name and their son's name,
and the other package containing two cookies labeled with the
girlfriend's name. The girlfriend was like, no thanks, and she
threw hers in the garbage, which I think was probably
(29:43):
a smart move. Liz then enrolled in pharmacy school. Coincidentally,
her ex's new girlfriend was a pharmacist. Liz got hair extensions. Coincidentally,
they made her hair look like the ex's new girlfriend.
Liz bought a black Mitsubishi. Coincidentally, her ex his new
girlfriend also drove a black Mitsubishi. Eventually, though, Liz lost
(30:05):
interest and she moved on to ruin other people's lives.
In September of twenty ten, almost two years before she
met Dave Krupa, Liz met a guy named Todd Butterbaugh
through an online dating site. Todd seems like a really
nice guy. He had just lost fifty pounds before meeting Liz,
but he still weighed about two point fifty and he
(30:25):
was self conscious about his weight. He was thirty seven
when they met, and he hadn't dated a lot before
he met Liz. Liz told Todd that the men in
her past relationships had not treated her well, and so
Todd vowed to not be like those other guys. But
it turned out that Liz really treated Todd like crap.
After a few months of dating, she dumped him for
(30:47):
another guy. But when that didn't work out, she came
back to Todd. One time, Todd was out near his
apartment complex pool and he was surprised to see Liz's sister,
Marcy there. So this is Liz's sister from the Foster
family that ended up adopting her. Apparently she must have
lived in the Omaha area as well. Marcy said, oh,
Liz just went out to pick up some food. When
(31:09):
Liz showed up, she had a guy with her and
she completely ignored Todd. Todd was like, wait a minute,
you brought your sister and some other guy to my
apartment complex to use the pool without even telling me.
Whenever Todd would get upset at situations like this, Liz
would turn things around on him and be like, well,
why are you getting so jealous? The guy's just a friend.
Don't you trust me? And Todd would always end up
(31:30):
backing down and wondering whether maybe he overreacted. She would
never show him any affection in public, but he figured
that was just who she was. He would help pay
her bills, and often he would watch her kids when
she said she had to work. She told Todd that
she had her own cleaning business and sometimes she had
to work all night. She lived in government subsidized housing
(31:52):
as a single mom, and she never seemed to have
any money. In June of twenty twelve, Todd bought his
grandmother's house, who had moved into a nursing home. This
was about the time that Liz met Dave Krupa. Todd
got suspicious when he saw that Liz was spending hours
texting with some guy, but she convinced him it was
just her mechanic and it was completely innocent, which makes sense.
(32:13):
I mean, who among us does not text their mechanic
for hours at a time in the evening right. Todd
continued seeing Liz, believing that they were in an exclusive
relationship while she was also dating Dave Krupa. She didn't
tell Dave about Todd either, even though he would have
been happy to know that she was dating someone else.
She didn't tell Todd about any of the craziness going
(32:34):
on in November or December of twenty twelve, with her
garage getting vandalized and the harassing texts and emails from
this crazy Carrie woman. In January of twenty thirteen, Todd
got a text from an unfamiliar number. The Texter said
her name was Carrie and that she was a friend
of Lizz. He mentioned this to Liz, who didn't say
anything about Carrie being this crazy stalker or anything. In fact,
(32:58):
she confirmed that Carrie was a friend of her. Carrie
started texting Todd regularly, usually small talk, but occasionally she
would say things to provoke a reaction, like Liz barely
mentions you. I didn't even know you too were still
dating another.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I know I'm supposed to not think that this Carrie,
but obviously Carrie, Liz's Carrie.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
You are onto something there. Another time he is a
piece of work, she is yep. Another time she texted,
I wish I could meet a guy like you. Sweet, handsome, smart,
and we have a lot in common. Not trying to
hit on you. She said that Liz had shown her
a picture of Todd, and she said you are very handsome.
I would like your arms around me, just saying I
(33:41):
would be proud to have you as a guy I
could show. Todd didn't know what to make of all this,
and he was very careful to try to steer the
conversation away from anything too flirty or personal. At one point,
Todd noticed that Carrie happened to phrase something the way
that Liz often did. He messaged her lol. Like Liz,
she always says that little did he know how spot
(34:04):
on he.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Actually was, so he wasn't suspicious.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I think, no, no, he wasn't. I do Like in
this story, it seems like like if you're Dave or
if you're Todd, like you should have been able to
figure this out. But you know, I just I just
don't think they it didn't occur to him, you know.
I think they just assumed that it was this c
this Cary person.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
So they didn't have their own true crime podcast or
not suspicious of everyone and everything in their life.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Apparently not. But it does seem like like just given
the way that Liz was, like, Dave knew that she
would send him these long emails and she was very
clingy and very possessive and stuff like, it does seem like, yeah, Dave,
maybe you should have at least had the question in
her mind that maybe Liz is behind all this.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, well, and she's chasing after Dave. But it sounds
like Todd's like a good guy.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah, poor Carrie, where's poor carry?
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Yeah? Late later in January Todd's house was burglarized, although
there was no sign of forced entry. His TV, his PlayStation,
his laptop, computer, monitor, and some clothing were all missing.
He reported it to the police, including the serial numbers
of all the electronics that were stolen so that they
could circulate them to pawn shops in case anything showed up.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Are we supposed to know?
Speaker 3 (35:30):
I was impressed that Todd he had maintained a very
meticulous list of all his balt.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
That spreadsheet, I absolutely do not wow.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
In January of twenty thirteen, Nancy got a message supposedly
from Carrie that said, Mom, why are you not talking anymore?
It came from a new Facebook account that had been
created with Carrie's name. Nancy replied, is this really you?
The reply came, yes, Mom, the other account was hacked.
I'm sorry I missed the funeral. Nancy replied, The only
(36:03):
way I'll know it's you is if you call me
and I hear your voice. The response came, everything is
about phone calls. I was just heading to bed. Who
else would know about dad? Fine, I will call you sometime.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Who else would know I have a dad?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
I know?
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I just wanted you to know I'm Okay, I am happy.
I may not be the greatest person in the world
right now, but I am talking. Fine, I will call you,
but I'm done after that. You have Max, and I
am grateful. But after the cop stuff from before, I
am done. I am not ten years old. Mom. I
can leave him and move on with someone new.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
End quote Nancy, I forgot that Max has been with
missus Farvard. Yeah for six weeks. Yeah, that's horrible.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Poor Max, I know.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
And you know, poor missus Carrie's mom. Yeah, and she
must be so worried. And her husband just died.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Yeah, no, her ex husband, but yes, agreed. Yeah, and Carrie,
you know, she Max was the most important thing in
the world to her, and so for her to like
just abandon her son like that, it's just what happened. Crazy.
Nancy still felt sure that it wasn't really Carrie, but
she was holding on to whatever hope she could, as
you could imagine, like as a parent, you know, even
(37:13):
if you believe that this person you're talking to is
not really your daughter, you want to believe it so bad, oh,
for sure. Soon after that, a photo of a hand
with a sparkling engagement ring was posted on Carrie's new
Facebook profile with the caption Dave and I Got engaged.
Nancy knew that the hand did not belong to her daughter.
(37:33):
Carrie had long and slender fingers, while the fingers shown
in the photo were short and stubby. On January sixth,
Dave got an email from Carrie's account that had a
photo attached. The photo was dark and hard to see,
but it showed a woman in the trunk of a car,
hands behind her back and duct tape over her mouth.
It was impossible to tell who the woman was in
(37:55):
the photo because it was very dark. It could be Liz,
but it might not be her. The email said, you
will do exactly as I say, and then I will
let her go. You will dump Liz and you will
start seeing me again. Dave was instructed to call Liz's
phone and leave a voicemail breaking up with her, and
then Carrie would set her free. If he didn't do it,
(38:16):
Carrie said that she would leave Liz in the trunk
in a remote location where she would die.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
This was a Facebook message.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
No, this was an email with a photo attached.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Time I'm sorry, Okay. Did he contact the police right away?
Speaker 3 (38:30):
He actually didn't, so he wasn't buying it. I think
by this time he was like, you know, he had
been getting so many emails and texts every day that
he was just like, this is not a real thing.
He texted Liz to check in on her. It was
late in the evening. Liz didn't respond, but she messaged
him the next morning, asking why he had been trying
to reach her so late. Dave replied, quote, Psycho was
(38:53):
playing games. Was just checking on you. Unquote. Liz replied,
so sweet. What's up today, Hansome? So I was a
little surprised he didn't call the police, because if it
had been real, he probably shouldn't have waited till the
next morning before actually doing anything.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yeah, if you get a picture of me and a trunk,
please call the police.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
Yes, wait away. On January eighth, Dave noticed a car
in his apartment parking lot that was covered in snow
and obviously hadn't been driven in days. He scraped some
of the snow off and realized that it was Carrie's
Ford Explorer.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
I was going to ask about her car.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Well now, you know, he was sure that it hadn't
been there the whole time. It made him wonder had
carried moved into his apartment complex. He called the police,
who came and impounded the car. A crime scene technician
processed the vehicle and found it to be extremely clean.
The seats had been recently vacuumed, and there was really
nothing of note in the car. There were no fingerprints
(39:53):
except for a single print on a mint container in
the center console, which was scanned and searched in the data,
but there was no match. The car was then returned
to Carrie's mom. She was surprised how clean it was
because Carrie typically left her car kind of messy, but
she assumed that the crime scene technicians must have cleaned
it before returning it to her. Nancy also applied for
(40:17):
and was granted conservatorship over Carrie's bank accounts. She found
that there had been no withdrawals from her accounts. Her
debit card had been used twice in mid November at
stores in Omaha. Her bank flagged them as suspicious transactions,
and they froze Carrie's account when she didn't respond to
their call. The relentless emails and texts showed no signs
(40:41):
of abating. In twenty thirteen, there were thousands of messages
from over thirty different email addresses and thirty different phone numbers,
and a dozen or more Facebook accounts. Mostly they were
coming in to Dave and Liz. Dave alone was receiving
an average of fifty to sixty messages a day, but
they were also coming to aim Me and Nancy. Dave
(41:02):
and Liz both allowed the police to download the contents
of their cell phones so that they had all the evidence.
Dave was still very much avoiding any type of serious
relationship with Liz, and he was still meeting other women online. However,
when he would meet someone, the woman would usually start
getting threatening messages from Carrie. One message said, quote, so
(41:23):
you must be Dave's new horror he has herpes and
the horror he was dating from the hor he was dating.
I would watch out for him unquote. Another message said
I will come kill you and your fucking kids. I
have killed a dog owned by Dave's last horror he
tried to be with, Oh my goodness, and another I
know where you live. I will be coming for you
(41:43):
and your son. I will kill your whole family. Some
of the women were like, yeah, you seem like a
nice guy, Dave, but I don't really need this. At
the same time, Liz was putting pressure on Dave for
more of a committed relationship, even though she was still
seeing Todd as well without him knowing. He and Liz
they still got along well enough, but he didn't like
(42:04):
her constant jealousy and the pressure. She finally got him
to commit to giving her one day a week Wednesday
evenings would belong to Liz in February.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
I mean, Liz, come on one day a week. Yeah,
want more for yourself.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
In February, Liz reported two incidents of her car being vandalized,
and in April someone scratched the words who Stop Seeing
Dave into the side of her car. Also in April,
Nancy got a call from an unknown number. It was
a man's voice. He said it was Dave Krupa and
he was calling to let her know that Carrie was
staying at a homeless shelter in Omaha and wanted Nancy
(42:43):
to pick her up. What hope once again ignited inside
of Nancy. She called the police to let them know
and they met her at the homeless shelter. The officer
asked Nancy to wait in the parking lot while he
went in and checked to see if Carrie was there
bringing a photo with him. Nancy's hopes were once again
dashed a few minutes later when he came back shaking
(43:03):
his head.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
That's so cruel.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
I know it is, isn't it. It's just horrible. That's
one of the most horrible things about this case. Like
you have your daughter is missing, and yet this person
keeps trying to give her some glimmer of hope. Yeah,
and then just dashes those hopes over and over again.
In May of twenty thirteen, now fifteen year old Maxwell
decided to try and make contact with his mom or
(43:27):
the person posing as his mom. He messaged Carrie on Facebook,
just saying Hi. The response came quickly, Hey, little man,
how are you? His mom had never referred to him
as little man, but he replied asking Carrie to answer three.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Questions, Oh smart Max, what.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Is my middle name? What was the name of our
first boxer? And who was my best friend when I
was growing up?
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:52):
These were questions, at least the last two that only
his mom would probably know the answers to There was
no response. One email sent in May had a picture
of Liz's kids. It looked like it had been taken
from outside her house looking in through a window. The
message said quote, these are the ugliest kids, just like
their horror mom. They should die with their horror mom
(44:14):
so I don't have to see their ugliness anymore. No
one wants her and her Brady kids around. Unquote. On
May eleventh, Carrie, and I use Carrie in quotes from
here on out because you know it's not really Carrie.
But she sent Dave a link to a page on
remembered dot com, which is a site where people post
obituaries and memorials to loved ones. The link was to
(44:37):
a page created as a memorial to Liz, with the
dates June twenty eighth, nineteen seventy five to May eleventh,
twenty thirteen. The obituary said, I didn't know her very well,
except that she was a whore and a man stealer.
She kept stealing my man. She is unable to get
her own man, so that she has to keep taking
everyone else's men. Thank god she has gone. Good riddance
(44:59):
to you. The next day, Dave got an email that said, quote,
I am trying to hire someone to get rid of
that horror Liz for us. You told me before you
wanted her gone, I can't do it myself because the
cops will figure it out. The email continued, asking if
she should also have Liz's kids killed. It closed with
I love you, Dave, and I'm glad you're in this
(45:20):
with me. I hope to see you soon, your beautiful Carrie.
Liz claimed to be terrified, but Dave did his best
to reassure her that Carrie was just trying to scare her.
In June, Dave was at Amy's house seeing his kids,
and when he got back to his apartment, he found
that someone had thrown a brick through the bedroom window
of his apartment. Carrie sent him an email taking responsibility.
(45:44):
Also in June, Dave found his car scratched with the
message quote Dave Love's fat horrors unquote. Oh while it
may seem obvious now that it wasn't really Carrie behind
all the harassment and vandalism, and we talked about this
a little bit, but Dave never suspected that it wasn't her.
Although Liz had certainly shown a history of being possessive
(46:06):
and jealous, he never suspected her because she was also
being targeted, and several times they would both get messages
from Carrie while they were together, and Liz's phone might
be sitting on the other side of the room. There
was another thing that happened in twenty thirteen that should
have tipped Dave off. He was walking home from the
bar one night. He didn't used to be to be
(46:27):
much of a drinker, but the constant stress and the
relentless onslaught of messages was getting to him, and he
started making a habit of hanging out at his local
watering hole after work. It was around eleven or twelve
at night, and he was in the parking lot of
his apartment complex walking home when he heard a noise.
He looked over and he saw Liz crawling on the ground.
(46:48):
She crept behind a car like she was hiding from him.
Dave called her name a couple of times, but there
was no answer. He was cold, and he was annoyed
and a little bit drunk, and so he just went inside.
He then got a text from her saying, quote, I'm sorry,
I'm drunk. I was over across the street at the
bar with my friends. I don't know what I'm doing unquote.
(47:09):
But this wasn't enough for Dave to suspect that Liz
might be behind all the harassment. In the summer of
twenty thirteen, Liz told Todd that she could no longer
pay her bills and she was going to become homeless.
Todd had already helped her a lot, but he felt
bad not only for her, but for her kids, and
so he offered to let them stay at his house.
His roommate had recently moved out, so he had the space.
(47:32):
She moved in, and Todd, thinking that Liz was his girlfriend,
expected that she would stay in his room, but she
immediately claimed the basement as her own. You might not
be surprised to hear that Liz was a horrible roommate.
She never offered to chip in for utilities or anything.
She was a slob. She never cleaned up after herself.
The basement quickly became a disaster area, with dirty clothes, trash,
(47:56):
fast food packaging, and more covering the floor, washed the dishes.
She rarely made dinner. When she did make dinner, it
was just for her and her kids. She never offered
anything to Todd. She loved fast food, and she would
often text Todd from the basement begging him to drive
to McDonald's. Todd was a pushover, so he would go
and buy dinner for her and the kids, and of
(48:17):
course she never offered to pay him back. Liz spent
most of her time when she was there hold up
in the basement, communicating with Todd via text. The two
did occasionally have sex, but it was rare. Todd quickly
regretted inviting her to move in and thought that maybe
if he paid for everything, she could save for money
and move out sooner. By late summer of twenty thirteen,
(48:40):
Dave was again getting fed up with Liz's jealousy and
her nagging, and he dumped her once again. Soon after that,
the Omaha Fire Department was called out to Liz's house.
She still hadn't completely moved out of her government subsidized house,
although most of her stuff was now at Todd's. When
the fire department arrived at Liz's house, the fire had
(49:00):
already burned itself out. It hadn't burned the whole house down,
but it did a lot of damage. There hadn't been
any people inside the house, but Liz and her kid's
four pets, two dogs, a cat, and a snake all
died from smoke. Inhalation. It didn't take long to figure
out that the fire was a result of arson. There
(49:20):
was a gas can on the floor of the living room,
a lighter fluid container in the kitchen, and the fire
had originated in multiple places, which is always suspicious. Liz
told investigators that it was carried. She showed them an
email that she had received early that morning that said,
hope you and your kids burned to death. Of course,
Liz immediately called Dave, freaking out and begging him to
(49:43):
come see her. He had dumped her, but now, of
course he felt bad because this was all his fault
for letting carry into their lives, so once again he
went and tried to comfort her. She told him she
had lost everything, even though she had really moved almost
all of her stuff to Todd's house already. Once again,
Carrie had somehow brought Dave and Liz back together again.
(50:06):
The rest of twenty thirteen was more of the same.
In August, Carrie texted Nancy, I'm in Omaha. I'm not
hurt mom. I miss everyone too. I just had a
breakdown and I think I'm getting over it. I should
have come to my senses sooner and realized the guy
wasn't worth it again, Nancy said, I need to hear
your voice to know it's really you this time. The
(50:27):
reply came, Okay, let me pull over once again. Nancy's
hopes started to rise, but the call never came.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Months ago, Carrie was supposed to call her when she
was like this, this is the last time, and so
she never Obviously she never called her. Then yeah, mom,
just let it go.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
Yeah, yep. In October, Dave showed up at work one
day to find a message spray painted in orange on
the front window of his shop, Dave Beats Women. In December,
someone broke into Dave's apart. There was writing on the
wall in red crayon that said go away, Whorr, and
some of Liz's clothing that was there had been slashed
(51:07):
with a knife. As the one year anniversary of Carrie's
disappearance passed, Dave was drinking regularly to deal with the stress.
He gained forty pounds during the year, and he constantly
had dark circles under his eyes. And with that, I
think it's a good point to break and end Part one.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
Holy moly, I'm like a bobblehead over here, shaking my head.
At all, this crazy story.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
I know, it's just it. It is insane. And how
long it went on, We're not even the insane.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Liz is insane, I mean, yes, yeah, crazy crazy. So
the police, So Carrie has been missing for how long?
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Now?
Speaker 3 (51:46):
A year?
Speaker 1 (51:47):
A year?
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (51:48):
And is anyone investigating her disappearance?
Speaker 3 (51:52):
I don't think they were actively doing a whole lot.
I think they thought it was a missing person. They
kind of believed that, oh, this person's harassing, so they
were investigating, like the harassment.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
I mean, come on, yeah, I know it's hindsight is
twenty twenty, but yeah, there should have been. Poor Carrie's
mom must have just been beside herself.
Speaker 3 (52:12):
Yeah, oh, I'm sure she was. Yeah, And I think.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
She was trying to get the investigation.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
She kept trying to convince the police that her daughter
was probably not alive anymore and they needed to investigate,
you know, from that perspective, and they just weren't having it.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Well, I hope you're gonna tell us how Max is
and Nancy. I will Carrie's mom, yes, because I am
worried about them right now. And Liz has two kids.
How old are her kids?
Speaker 3 (52:40):
I think they were somewhere around like maybe nine and
eleven years old at this point.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
So those poor kids have had a very tumultuous upbringing,
and I hope they're okay too.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
I hope so too. I don't really have any update
on them, but I will, Yeah, I will talk about
the other folks that you mentioned at the end of
part two.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
All right, at me some pictures, which of course we'll post.
Is always on social media. But yeah, Liz is I'm
not going to make fun of anyone's appearance. But she
looks she looks a little crazy. Yeah, Carrie looks like
a nice lady.
Speaker 3 (53:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
Oh well that was That was quite a ride. Can
I unbuckle yet?
Speaker 3 (53:19):
Well you can unbuckle for a little bit, but part
two it is not going to be any less crazy.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
So uh, Like I said, I did hear the story before,
but I don't really remember other than Liz was pretending
to be Carrie. Yeah. Thank you so much for listening
to this episode of Love Mary Kill.
Speaker 3 (53:43):
Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, find us on social media,
or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
Please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com, slash love
Marykill for five dollars a month. You get early ad
free access and a monthly bonus this episode.
Speaker 3 (54:01):
Join us next Monday for another episode of Love Mary
Kill
Hi, I'm Tina and I'm Rich.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Welcome to love Mary Kel Just the facts.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Okay, so today's case. I kind of alluded to it earlier,
but this is probably the most insane story that I've
researched so far. All the podcasts I listened to about this,
everyone started with this story is the craziest story, and
I was like, yeah, whatever, it's a crazy story. It's
a story of jealousy, obsession, and cruelty that went on
way too long before some tenacious investigators finally uncovered the truth.
(00:45):
It actually reminds me a little bit of the movie
Fatal Attraction, but it's crazier than that. And it is
kind of a long story. It's going to be a
two parter, and it's going to be a wild ride,
So yes, buckle up. Our story begins in the summer
of twenty two twelve. Thirty four year old Dave Krupa
had recently ended a long term relationship, like thirteen or
(01:06):
fourteen years long, with a woman named Amy Flora, who
was the mother of his two children. Dave was a
good guy, but not someone who wanted to be tied down.
While Amy wanted to get married. Dave was never on
board with the idea, and eventually the couple decided to
call it quits. Dave moved out of their house in
Council Bluffs, Iowa, to a sparsely furnished bachelor pad apartment
(01:29):
about twenty minutes away across the Missouri River in Omaha, Nebraska,
which was near where he worked managing an auto repair shop.
They agreed to work together for the sake of the kids, though,
who were eleven and nine at this time. Dave and
Amy maintained a friendly relationship and Dave saw the kids regularly.
(01:49):
After Dave moved into his new apartment, he decided it
was time to get out there and start dating again.
Even though he hadn't been married, he had been as
good as married for the last dozen or so years,
so getting back into the dating world was a little
bit scary. He quickly found that things had changed since
he was last on the market, because there was a
whole new world of dating apps out there where one
(02:11):
could meet and date as many women as he wanted.
This suited Dave because while he wanted to have fun
and socialize, he absolutely did not want commitment. He was
independent and determined to stay that way. He made it
clear on his dating profile that he was looking for
something casual, and he was up front with that requirement
whenever he met anyone in person. The first woman that
(02:35):
Dave met online was Shanna Gallier, better known as Liz.
She was about his age, had two kids around the
same age as his, and they seemed to hit her off.
They saw each other four or five times in the
summer of twenty twelve before Dave finally worked up the
nerve to kiss her. She asked what had taken him
so long, and he replied, because I don't know what
(02:56):
the fuck I'm doing. Their relationship became intimate and they
seemed to have chemistry together. Dave and Liz had fun
and the sex was good, but he made it clear
to her that he was going to see other women,
and he encouraged her to see other guys. She said
that just wasn't her style. Dave said, fine, but don't
expect me to change. Despite Dave setting clear boundaries up front,
(03:20):
Liz could be very clingy and she was always pushing
him for more of a commitment. She got jealous of
amy when Dave would go over to her house to
spend time with his kids. Liz would sometimes show up
at Dave's apartment without warning, and she would send him
long emails about their relationship and looking for him to
make a commitment.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Oh boy.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
She would ask to just make a one month commitment.
Dave would say no, or at times he would half
heartedly agree to some type of short term exclusivity just
to kind of move on from the discussion. He cared
about Liz and he didn't want to hurt her, so
he kept the relationship going, but he kept her at
arm's length while she kept pushing for more.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Did Liz think that Dave was her twin flame?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I don't know. We should talk about twin Flames sometime.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
We're watching to show on Amazon called It's not called
twin Flame, it's Space on the podcast twin Flames. We
can talk about that at the end.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, it's a pretty crazy story actually. So Dave casually
dated some other women that he met online, but in
the fall of twenty twelve, he met Carrie Farvar in
a more traditional way. She came into his shop to
have some repair work done on her Ford Explorer. He
was instantly attracted to her, and he sensed that she
was attracted to him as well. He wanted to ask
(04:38):
her out right there, but he thought, well, what if
I've misread the situation. I could get into a lot
of trouble at work if I asked her out and
she's not interested. So he kept it professional and she
left the shop, but he didn't stop thinking about her,
and lo and behold two weeks later, whose profile does
he come across? And his dating app? Carrie Farver's. He
sent her a message saying, hey, I know you. She responded,
(05:02):
and a little while later she stopped back in his
shop to chat and they exchanged phone numbers. It turned
out Dave hadn't misread the signals he was getting from Carrie.
In fact, after she left the shop the first time,
she actually created an account on the plenty of Fish
dating site, hoping that Dave was on the site and
that they would connect. Dave and Carrie's first date was
(05:24):
on a Monday evening, October twenty ninth of twenty twelve.
They met at Applebee's in the mall and they hit
it off right away. Dave could see that Carrie was smart, funny,
and easygoing. She was a software developer for a company
called West Corporation, which happened to be located walking distance
from Dave's apartment. Carrie lived about thirty miles east of
(05:47):
Omaha in the small town of Macedonia, Iowa, where she
had grown up. She was thirty seven, twice married and
twice divorced, and she had full custody of her fourteen
year old son Maxwell. Her mom Nancy and her stepdad
Mark also lived in Macedonia, and they helped carry by
having Maxwell stay with them whenever she needed. While they
(06:10):
were at Applebee's on their first date, Dave's phone started
blowing up with texts and calls. He saw that it
was Liz, and he did his best to ignore it
so as not to be rude to carry. But after
about twenty texts and calls within a ten minute period,
he thought that something might be seriously wrong, so he
excused himself and he called Liz back. She said that
(06:30):
she had less some things at his apartment and she
really needed them back. He told her that he was
on a date and that he was sure it could wait.
He hung up and went back to Carrie. They finished eating,
hung out a bit longer, and then Dave asked Carrie
if she wanted to come back to his place and
she agreed. Once they got back to Dave's apartment, his
phone started blowing up again, and soon after that, his
(06:52):
apartment intercom buzzer went off. It was Liz saying, I
need my stuff now. Dave said, you don't need to
come in now. I'll bring your stuff to you later.
But Liz started crying and she wouldn't leave.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Do you know where Liz lived in relation to Dave.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I don't know exactly, but she was in Omaha also,
so I think it was probably relatively close.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
So she may have been like parked and saw him
enter with another woman.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
It's very possible. Yeah, So Dave explained the situation to
Carrie and he apologized profusely. Carrie seemed to be a
good sport about it. She laughed it off. She said,
no worries, We've all been there. Just give me a
call when you've got things straightened out. So Dave walked
Carrie out, passed Liz, who was at the entrance of
the apartment.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Awkward.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Yeah, the two women didn't say anything to each other.
Liz came in to get her stuff, but she didn't
want to leave. She wanted to argue, but Dave just
wanted to get rid of her, which he finally did
right away. After she left, he called Carrie, who was
not quite home yet. She said, Hey, why don't you
come over to my place? It was nine pm on
a Monday night and a forty minute drive, but Dave
(07:56):
did not hesitate. Carrie had a charming little two badhouse
built in eighteen seventy that had belonged to her grandparents.
Maxwell her son was staying at Carrie's parents house for
the night, so she and Dave had the place to themselves.
They had some coffee, and soon they started kissing. Before
things went any further, Carrie told Dave that she wasn't
(08:17):
looking for a commitment, that she just wanted something casual
and to have some fun. Dave later said, I felt
like I hit the jackpot. She was smart, fun, sexy,
had her act kicked together, and she wanted the exact
same thing out of a relationship that he did. He
ended up staying the night and they saw each other
regularly over the next couple of weeks, in between work
(08:38):
and kids. Between his chemistry with Carrie and Liz's behavior,
Dave was pretty much done with Liz, and he told
her that they should take a break. But Liz wasn't
ready to let go. A few days after Dave's first
date with Carrie, Liz sent him a long, rambling email.
I'm going to have you read just a small part
(08:58):
of it, if you don't mind, just so you can
get an idea of Liz's mindset.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I know you don't know what will happen down the road,
and you really don't want to think about it. Are
you asking for the long break so you can forget everything?
I'm going to give it to you, so don't worry.
I was just wondering. Sorry, I guess I need closure.
Do I forget everything about us? I'm going to date others,
but if no one catches my eye, do I get
to hope time makes the heart grow fonder? Or do
(09:26):
you want to go and never come back. I'm not
saying we will ever get back together. I'm just asking
do I go and never look back? I guess I hope,
even if you're dating others, that you look back and
you'll smile when you think of me, that someday you'll
let me back in, no matter what it be a
friend or whatever.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Good job.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
No man wants to receive this, by the way, no, no,
I shouldn't say man, no one that you're dating, like
if you break it off man or woman, like you
don't want this. You wouldn't be like, oh yeah, let's
let's give it another try. Ye, that would solidify your Yeah,
I definitely want to be done here for sure.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
So and I think the email went out a lot
longer than that as well. It was just a portion
of it. She ended the email by saying she would
understand if he wanted to stop talking to her, but
then she emailed again a few minutes later, saying that
she hadn't hugged him the last time she'd seen him,
because it would have felt like a goodbye. Dave didn't
reply to either email. It didn't seem like a response
was warranted, But that was apparently not okay with Liz,
(10:26):
because she emailed him again the next day, saying, well,
thank you for no response to email. I get the answer,
that's it. Later a few days after this, Liz called
him saying she just remembered that she had left some
pans at his place, so he offered to bring them
to her. When he got there, she got very flirty
and they ended up having sex. Dave, I know, Dave is. Yeah,
(10:53):
he's not the best at this whole thing. He and Carrie.
Dave and Carrie had both agreed that they weren't exclusive,
so he wasn't cheating on Carrie, and in his mind
it was just one last fling with Liz. But of
course she's an idiot. Yeah, she emailed him. Lizzy emailed
him a few days later asking if he would be
comfortable grabbing a drink or dinner with her sometime, just
(11:16):
as friends, acting very casual about it. So Carrie back
to her She had a big project going on at
her work that was going to require her to work
long hours for a week. Since Dave's apartment was so
close to her work, he offered to have her stay
for a few nights, and she took him up on it.
This would save for almost two hours of commuting time
(11:36):
each day. Her son Maxwell had a great relationship with
her mom and stepdad, so he was fine staying with
them for a few days. On Tuesday, the thirteenth of November,
Dave had to be at work by six point thirty
in the morning. When he left at six twenty five,
Carrie was in her pajamas, sitting on his couch with
her laptop out and a bunch of works spread out
(11:58):
around her on the couch. Dave gave her a kiss
and said he would see her later in the evening.
She seemed happy and content. He was looking forward to
seeing her later when he got back. They had been
seeing each other for two weeks and she seemed just
about perfect to him. He had no way of knowing
at that time how quickly and dramatically things would change. Oh,
(12:21):
here's what we know about Carrie Farver's actions. On the
morning of November thirteenth, at six fifteen am, she called
into her work and she left a message with an
update about the code that she was working on. At
six twenty five, as I mentioned, Dave left for his job,
leaving Carrie and her pajamas working on the couch. At
six thirty nine am, Carrie logged into Facebook from her laptop.
(12:44):
She had received a friend request from someone named Sam Carter,
who claimed to be from her hometown of Macedonia. She
didn't know him, which was strange because Macedonia's population was
only around two hundred and forty people, plus he had
spelled Macedonia wrong, but she messaged him that morning asking
do I know you? And then she logged off of
Facebook at six forty two am. At nine fifty four am,
(13:09):
Carrie's phone logged into Facebook and she unfriended Dave krupa h.
Twenty minutes later, a text came from Carrie's phone to
Dave asking if they should move in together. Dave thought
that's weird because they had agreed to keep things casual.
He was busy at work as well, and so he
(13:30):
just texted back a one word response. No seconds later,
a text came back from Carrie quote fine, fuck you.
I'm seeing somebody else. Don't contact me again. I hate you.
Go away unquote oh boy. Dave was shocked, but he
was also busy at work, and so he put it
aside for the moment, and he didn't respond. By mid morning,
(13:53):
Carrie's supervisor at work was surprised when she hadn't shown
up yet. She had gotten Carrie's message that she had
left at six fifteen am, so it was clear that
Carrie was working on stuff that morning. Her supervisor called
and left a message, and tried again a few times
later in the day, but there was no response. When
Dave finished work for the day and returned to his apartment,
(14:14):
he wasn't sure what to expect. Would Carrie be there,
would they fight? It was just so strange, the message
that she had sent him earlier, when things had been
going so well between them. He went into his apartment
and there was no trace of Carrie. She and all
her stuff were gone, like she had never been there.
He was baffled, but at the same time, he thought
(14:36):
to himself, well, I guess I dodged a bullet. It's
hard to know what a person is really like after
just a couple of weeks, and apparently he had completely
misread Carrie as someone who was easy going, reasonable and
drama free, and this just reaffirmed his commitment to not committing.
He didn't need the drama in his life. Meanwhile, Carrie's mom, Nancy,
(14:57):
started getting worried when she hadn't heard from Carrie. They
normally talked or texted every day. Nancy tried calling Carrie
several times to see when she was going to pick
up Max, but she never got a response. When Carrie
didn't show up for her half brother's wedding that weekend,
Nancy became really concerned. She knew that Carrie wouldn't miss
(15:18):
the wedding. Carrie's father. Nancy's ex husband was dying of
stomach cancer, and her half brother had pushed the wedding
up so that he could be there. But when Carrie
didn't show up to the rehearsal dinner or the wedding,
Nancy reported her missing.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
How long had she been missing?
Speaker 3 (15:36):
So Tuesday was the day that she went missing, and
then I think the rehearsal dinner was Friday, so it
was a few days. Okay. The officer who took the
missing person's report didn't seem too concerned. After all, Carrie
was a grown woman. She could do what she wanted.
It wasn't long after Carrie's disappearance that the harassment started.
Dave started receiving angry texts from Carrie's phone. Usually Liz
(16:01):
was the target of the texts, referring to her as
a quote fat, ugly whore, and other nasty names. Liz
also started getting texts and emails from Carrie, and even worse,
her garage was broken into and someone painted the words
whorror from Dave on her garage wall. Liz also discovered
that a check book had been stolen, and she reported
(16:22):
both the theft and the vandalism to the Omaha police.
Dave hadn't really planned on seeing Liz again, but when
she told him about the harassment and the vandalism, he
felt bad, and he didn't blame her for being upset.
He felt guilty, after all, he had brought this crazy
carry woman into their lives. Shortly after the incident in
(16:43):
Liz's garage, Nancy got a text from her daughter's phone
with a picture of a check made out to Carrie
and signed with the name Shanna Gallier, Liz's legal name.
The message from Carrie said that she had sold her
bedroom set to Shanna and asked her mom to let
Shanna into her house to pick it up. Nancy didn't
(17:04):
believe that it was really Carrie, and so she replied saying,
I need to hear your voice so I know it's
really you. The reply from Carrie's phone called Nancy a
controlling bad mother, and there was no call to confirm
or to hear Carrie's voice. Nancy followed up with the
police after this exchange, more certain now that something had
(17:25):
happened to Carrie or that someone had kidnapped her. The
police again didn't seem too worried. They took a copy
of the text and the photo of the check and
they added it to the file. While Nancy believed that
Carrie hadn't chosen to disappear, there was some doubt in
the back of her mind. Carrie had been diagnosed with
bipolar disorder years earlier. Nancy had always doubted the diagnosis,
(17:49):
believing that Carrie suffered more from general anxiety as opposed
to the extreme mood swings that come with bipolar disorder.
But maybe Carrie was having some type of man episode.
She had left her meds behind, after all. When Nancy
mentioned this to the police, they seemed to take this
as a confirmation that Carrie must have left on her
own volition.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
I'm sorry, it seems like the police have missed a
few steps here.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
It seems like it, but you know, at the same time, but.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
The whole check incident is very strange.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, it is a little strange. Although the police didn't
seem super concerned, they actually did do some investigations. I'll
talk about that now. On Monday the nineteenth, so six
days after Carrie had vanished and three days after Nancy
reported her missing, an officer interviewed Carrie's supervisor at West Corporation.
She told the officer that Carrie hadn't shown up for
(18:41):
work on Tuesday, and then later in the week she
had gotten a text from Carrie saying that she was
resigning and moving to Kansas to take a new job.
The police also contacted Verizon to get Carrie's phone records
and her ping locations. The pings showed that her phone
was still in Omaha. They drove around the area of
the pings, which only provide a rough location, to see
(19:04):
if they could spot her Ford Explorer, but they came
up empty. They also had the photo of the check
that Carrie's mom had shared. The checks were starter checks.
There was no name or address on them, but they
could read the signature clearly Shanna Gallier. They didn't know
who this was, so keep in mind the detectives investigating
Carrie as a missing person were on the Iowa side
(19:25):
of the border, and the detectives who had taken Liz's
report of vandalism and theft were from Nebraska. But they
talked to Liz, who told them that she and Carrie
had both dated this guy, Dave Krupa, and that Carrie
had been harassing her and had stolen her checkbook. She
also gave them Dave's contact info. They stopped in to
see Dave at his work, and he confirmed that both
(19:47):
he and Liz were getting harassing texts and emails from
this crazy Carrie Farver woman. He didn't know that she
had been reported as missing, and he promised to let
the police know if he saw her. Soon after the
officer left Dave's place of work, he meaning the officer,
got a text from Carrie himself. It said, quote, I
(20:10):
don't care about this missing person report, but I would
really appreciate it if you would leave Dave Krupa out
of it. I will be leaving the state. My mother overreacted.
I have been to my house a few times unquote.
The officer responded, saying they needed to speak with her
to verify that she was okay, otherwise she would remain
a missing person in the database. The response from Carrie said, quote,
(20:33):
Dave texted me and said you had the sheriff at
his work. Please stop talking to people. I have nothing
to say to anyone. I want one person to go
away for destroying everything for me. Apparently she met Liz.
By the end of November, Dave was getting over sixty
texts and emails a day from Carrie's phone boy. One night,
he got a text saying, I see you in the
(20:55):
chair with your feet propped up. You're wearing your blue
T shirt. Both of those things were true, which freaked
Dave out. He ran outside, but he didn't see Kerrie.
He would try to block her number or her email,
but she would just start texting from different numbers and
different email addresses. He got a new phone number, but
somehow she found out his new number, and the harassment continued.
(21:18):
Let's take a quick break.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
I just had an incredible sense of deja vu, and
I realized that I've heard.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
This case before. You have, Okay, I wonder it's I
think it's a fairly well known case.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
So I must have watched a datelin on. Okay, here's
a dateline up.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Oh yeah, Keith Morrison. It's a good talking.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
About the texting in the blue shirt. I was like,
oh wait a minute, I know this.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Oh man, I thought I had a new one.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Remember it. I don't remember it very well. I just
a little bit sorry.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
That's okay, all right, So the harassment is going on
here Amy Dave's X and the mother of his children
also started getting dozens of threatening messages a day from
Carrie warning her to leave Dave alone. Dave started getting
worried for his kid's safety and wouldn't let them out
of his sight when they were together. On November twenty first,
a post appeared on Carrie's Facebook page saying that she
(22:17):
was moving to Kansas for a great job and that
she would miss her family and friends. A few days later,
another post appeared saying, Hey, got a great guy, David
Krupa moving down to Kansas. Now. If I can get
my son to move with me, I'd be so happy.
The weird thing was that her son Max, told his
grandparents that his mom had actually talked about possibly moving
(22:39):
to Kansas at some point. So even though Nancy believed
that it wasn't her daughter making these posts, she still
had like a sliver of doubt. By the end of November, though,
Nancy and her husband Mark took action to become Max's
legal guardian, knowing that it could be reversed if Carrie
showed up and was in her right mind. They also
(22:59):
reported Car's car, which was in their name, as being stolen,
hoping that it would be another avenue to help hopefully
locate Carrie. On December seventh, Carrie's dad, Dennis, the one
who had been battling stomach cancer, passed away in hospice. Yeah,
it's really sad because she wasn't there, and you know
(23:20):
she would have been there for him. Soon after that, Nancy,
who had remained good friends with Carrie's dad even after
they divorced, had a vivid dream where Dennis told her
not to worry that Carrie was with him. She woke
up in tears, now believing that Carrie was probably dead,
but it would take a long long time before she
(23:41):
knew for sure whether that was the case. Even though
Dave had pretty much dumped Liz before all this craziness started,
the harassment that they were both experiencing actually brought them
back together. You know, they had this kind of shared experience.
They could vent to each other about crazy Carrie as
they started referring to her, and it almost seems like
(24:02):
Liz got exactly what she wanted. At this point, You
might be wanting to know more about Shanna aka Liz
Gallier Shanna Kay, which was her name at birth, grew
up in Kalamazoo, Michigan, in.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Nineteen and no Kalamazoo.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Yeah, it's a great place. In nineteen seventy eight, when
she was almost three years old, the state of Michigan
removed Shanna and her little brother, fifteen month old George,
from their home. This was because their dad, Al was
a violent, abusive alcoholic who regularly beat up their mom d.
After the kids were taken away, d kicked Al out
of the house, and the social workers approved having the
(24:41):
children return back home. Before that happened, though, tragedy struck
d was walking home from the laundromat where she had
been washing the linens in preparation for her children's return home.
The laundromat was only four blocks away from home, but
an eighteen year old driver had an epileptic seizure and
veered off the road, striking and killing Dee, who was
(25:02):
less than two weeks away from her twenty ninth birthday.
After that, Shanna and George went into foster care, bouncing
around to a few households before ending up adopted by
Ronald and Teresa Gallier of Battle Creek. At that point,
Shanna's name was changed from Shana Kay to Shanna Elizabeth Gallier.
(25:23):
In nineteen eighty one, when Shanna was five, her foster
grandmother was murdered at age forty six, shot and killed
by her ex boyfriend in a battle Creek bar.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Wow that's a lot.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Yeah, so her childhood was certainly marred by trauma. Shanna
got married at twenty then divorced at twenty two. She
then started dating a guy named Raymond Nich who she
worked with at a plastics factory, and she found out
she was pregnant in early nineteen ninety eight. Nich bought
a trailer for the two of them to live in,
(25:55):
but when she was eight months pregnant, Shanna moved in
with another guy by the name of Glenn hur. She
told Raymond that Glenn was just her roommate, but it
soon became clear that there was more to their relationship.
Cody Nathaniel Gallier was born in August of nineteen ninety eight.
He was a difficult, calicky baby who cried a lot.
(26:15):
In January of nineteen ninety nine, when Cody was five
months old, Shanna called Glenn at work, saying, I dropped
the baby. You need to get home. By the time
Glenn got home, Cody was sleeping and he seemed fine,
but the next day, while Shanna was at work and
Glenn and his mom were with the baby, Cody seemed
unusually quiet, and then Glenn's mother saw that the baby
(26:37):
wasn't breathing.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Oh no.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Glenn called nine one one while his mother performed CPR,
but sadly, baby Cody died.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
The cause of death was determined to be shaken baby syndrome.
The police grilled Glen, who was a bit slow mentally,
and he admitted that he had bounced Cody on his
knee and liked to toss him in the air while
they were playing, so maybe he was responsible for Cody's death.
The doctor who examined Cody said that his death had
been the result of at least twenty seconds of vigorous shaking,
(27:09):
so it's unlikely that bouncing Cody on his knee or
playfully tossing him up in the air would have actually
caused his death. And Glenn either didn't mention Shanna's call
the day before about dropping the baby or the police
didn't care. They decided that they had their man. Glenn
was arrested and charged with second degree murder. Glenn's mom
(27:29):
ran into Shanna at Walmart, a couple of days after
Cody died, a couple had offered to buy Shanna a
new wardrobe to take her mind off of losing her baby,
and apparently it worked, because Shanna seemed cheerful and happy,
not like a grieving mother as you might expect. Glenn's
mom was shocked. At Glenn's trial, Shanna testified and read
(27:52):
to the jury several letters that she claimed he had
sent her from jail. One of the letters asked Shanna
to cover for him and say that she had dropped Cody.
Glenn's mom was sure that Shanna had written the letters.
Her son had a learning disability and they were much
more articulate than he would have been. But nonetheless, Glenn
was convicted and sentenced to eight and a half to
(28:13):
twenty five years in prison.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Soon after Glenn's conviction, Shanna left Michigan and she headed
to Omaha. She actually had a felony warrant for her
arrest in Michigan for stealing a car, and so she
apparently decided it would be best if she skipped town.
I don't have a lot of information about how Liz
spent her first ten years in Omaha. I do know
that soon after moving there, she got pregnant and she
(28:38):
had a little girl. I don't know who the father is.
But when her daughter was two years old, Liz met
a different guy. She got pregnant again and gave birth
to a boy. Liz and this guy split up, though,
because he couldn't take Liz's constant jealousy. Soon after they split,
he started dating another woman. In what was maybe a
preview of things to come, Liz started harassing her ex
(29:02):
and his new girlfriend, banging on their apartment door late
at night, calling the guy when the couple was together,
keeing the girlfriend's car, causing thirty seven hundred dollars worth
of damage. No one had seen Liz do it, though,
and so she wasn't charged. Soon after that incident, Liz
left a tearful voicemail for her ex boyfriend apologizing, and
(29:22):
she followed up by sending six cookies. The funny thing is, though,
that the cookies arrived in two separate packages, one containing
four cookies labeled with the guy's name and their son's name,
and the other package containing two cookies labeled with the
girlfriend's name. The girlfriend was like, no thanks, and she
threw hers in the garbage, which I think was probably
(29:43):
a smart move. Liz then enrolled in pharmacy school. Coincidentally,
her ex's new girlfriend was a pharmacist. Liz got hair extensions. Coincidentally,
they made her hair look like the ex's new girlfriend.
Liz bought a black Mitsubishi. Coincidentally, her ex his new
girlfriend also drove a black Mitsubishi. Eventually, though, Liz lost
(30:05):
interest and she moved on to ruin other people's lives.
In September of twenty ten, almost two years before she
met Dave Krupa, Liz met a guy named Todd Butterbaugh
through an online dating site. Todd seems like a really
nice guy. He had just lost fifty pounds before meeting Liz,
but he still weighed about two point fifty and he
(30:25):
was self conscious about his weight. He was thirty seven
when they met, and he hadn't dated a lot before
he met Liz. Liz told Todd that the men in
her past relationships had not treated her well, and so
Todd vowed to not be like those other guys. But
it turned out that Liz really treated Todd like crap.
After a few months of dating, she dumped him for
(30:47):
another guy. But when that didn't work out, she came
back to Todd. One time, Todd was out near his
apartment complex pool and he was surprised to see Liz's sister,
Marcy there. So this is Liz's sister from the Foster
family that ended up adopting her. Apparently she must have
lived in the Omaha area as well. Marcy said, oh,
Liz just went out to pick up some food. When
(31:09):
Liz showed up, she had a guy with her and
she completely ignored Todd. Todd was like, wait a minute,
you brought your sister and some other guy to my
apartment complex to use the pool without even telling me.
Whenever Todd would get upset at situations like this, Liz
would turn things around on him and be like, well,
why are you getting so jealous? The guy's just a friend.
Don't you trust me? And Todd would always end up
(31:30):
backing down and wondering whether maybe he overreacted. She would
never show him any affection in public, but he figured
that was just who she was. He would help pay
her bills, and often he would watch her kids when
she said she had to work. She told Todd that
she had her own cleaning business and sometimes she had
to work all night. She lived in government subsidized housing
(31:52):
as a single mom, and she never seemed to have
any money. In June of twenty twelve, Todd bought his
grandmother's house, who had moved into a nursing home. This
was about the time that Liz met Dave Krupa. Todd
got suspicious when he saw that Liz was spending hours
texting with some guy, but she convinced him it was
just her mechanic and it was completely innocent, which makes sense.
(32:13):
I mean, who among us does not text their mechanic
for hours at a time in the evening right. Todd
continued seeing Liz, believing that they were in an exclusive
relationship while she was also dating Dave Krupa. She didn't
tell Dave about Todd either, even though he would have
been happy to know that she was dating someone else.
She didn't tell Todd about any of the craziness going
(32:34):
on in November or December of twenty twelve, with her
garage getting vandalized and the harassing texts and emails from
this crazy Carrie woman. In January of twenty thirteen, Todd
got a text from an unfamiliar number. The Texter said
her name was Carrie and that she was a friend
of Lizz. He mentioned this to Liz, who didn't say
anything about Carrie being this crazy stalker or anything. In fact,
(32:58):
she confirmed that Carrie was a friend of her. Carrie
started texting Todd regularly, usually small talk, but occasionally she
would say things to provoke a reaction, like Liz barely
mentions you. I didn't even know you too were still
dating another.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I know I'm supposed to not think that this Carrie,
but obviously Carrie, Liz's Carrie.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
You are onto something there. Another time he is a
piece of work, she is yep. Another time she texted,
I wish I could meet a guy like you. Sweet, handsome, smart,
and we have a lot in common. Not trying to
hit on you. She said that Liz had shown her
a picture of Todd, and she said you are very handsome.
I would like your arms around me, just saying I
(33:41):
would be proud to have you as a guy I
could show. Todd didn't know what to make of all this,
and he was very careful to try to steer the
conversation away from anything too flirty or personal. At one point,
Todd noticed that Carrie happened to phrase something the way
that Liz often did. He messaged her lol. Like Liz,
she always says that little did he know how spot
(34:04):
on he.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Actually was, so he wasn't suspicious.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I think, no, no, he wasn't. I do Like in
this story, it seems like like if you're Dave or
if you're Todd, like you should have been able to
figure this out. But you know, I just I just
don't think they it didn't occur to him, you know.
I think they just assumed that it was this c
this Cary person.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
So they didn't have their own true crime podcast or
not suspicious of everyone and everything in their life.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Apparently not. But it does seem like like just given
the way that Liz was, like, Dave knew that she
would send him these long emails and she was very
clingy and very possessive and stuff like, it does seem like, yeah, Dave,
maybe you should have at least had the question in
her mind that maybe Liz is behind all this.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, well, and she's chasing after Dave. But it sounds
like Todd's like a good guy.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah, poor Carrie, where's poor carry?
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Yeah? Late later in January Todd's house was burglarized, although
there was no sign of forced entry. His TV, his PlayStation,
his laptop, computer, monitor, and some clothing were all missing.
He reported it to the police, including the serial numbers
of all the electronics that were stolen so that they
could circulate them to pawn shops in case anything showed up.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Are we supposed to know?
Speaker 3 (35:30):
I was impressed that Todd he had maintained a very
meticulous list of all his balt.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
That spreadsheet, I absolutely do not wow.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
In January of twenty thirteen, Nancy got a message supposedly
from Carrie that said, Mom, why are you not talking anymore?
It came from a new Facebook account that had been
created with Carrie's name. Nancy replied, is this really you?
The reply came, yes, Mom, the other account was hacked.
I'm sorry I missed the funeral. Nancy replied, The only
(36:03):
way I'll know it's you is if you call me
and I hear your voice. The response came, everything is
about phone calls. I was just heading to bed. Who
else would know about dad? Fine, I will call you sometime.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Who else would know I have a dad?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
I know?
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I just wanted you to know I'm Okay, I am happy.
I may not be the greatest person in the world
right now, but I am talking. Fine, I will call you,
but I'm done after that. You have Max, and I
am grateful. But after the cop stuff from before, I
am done. I am not ten years old. Mom. I
can leave him and move on with someone new.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
End quote Nancy, I forgot that Max has been with
missus Farvard. Yeah for six weeks. Yeah, that's horrible.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Poor Max, I know.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
And you know, poor missus Carrie's mom. Yeah, and she
must be so worried. And her husband just died.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Yeah, no, her ex husband, but yes, agreed. Yeah, and Carrie,
you know, she Max was the most important thing in
the world to her, and so for her to like
just abandon her son like that, it's just what happened. Crazy.
Nancy still felt sure that it wasn't really Carrie, but
she was holding on to whatever hope she could, as
you could imagine, like as a parent, you know, even
(37:13):
if you believe that this person you're talking to is
not really your daughter, you want to believe it so bad, oh,
for sure. Soon after that, a photo of a hand
with a sparkling engagement ring was posted on Carrie's new
Facebook profile with the caption Dave and I Got engaged.
Nancy knew that the hand did not belong to her daughter.
(37:33):
Carrie had long and slender fingers, while the fingers shown
in the photo were short and stubby. On January sixth,
Dave got an email from Carrie's account that had a
photo attached. The photo was dark and hard to see,
but it showed a woman in the trunk of a car,
hands behind her back and duct tape over her mouth.
It was impossible to tell who the woman was in
(37:55):
the photo because it was very dark. It could be Liz,
but it might not be her. The email said, you
will do exactly as I say, and then I will
let her go. You will dump Liz and you will
start seeing me again. Dave was instructed to call Liz's
phone and leave a voicemail breaking up with her, and
then Carrie would set her free. If he didn't do it,
(38:16):
Carrie said that she would leave Liz in the trunk
in a remote location where she would die.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
This was a Facebook message.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
No, this was an email with a photo attached.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Time I'm sorry, Okay. Did he contact the police right away?
Speaker 3 (38:30):
He actually didn't, so he wasn't buying it. I think
by this time he was like, you know, he had
been getting so many emails and texts every day that
he was just like, this is not a real thing.
He texted Liz to check in on her. It was
late in the evening. Liz didn't respond, but she messaged
him the next morning, asking why he had been trying
to reach her so late. Dave replied, quote, Psycho was
(38:53):
playing games. Was just checking on you. Unquote. Liz replied,
so sweet. What's up today, Hansome? So I was a
little surprised he didn't call the police, because if it
had been real, he probably shouldn't have waited till the
next morning before actually doing anything.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yeah, if you get a picture of me and a trunk,
please call the police.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
Yes, wait away. On January eighth, Dave noticed a car
in his apartment parking lot that was covered in snow
and obviously hadn't been driven in days. He scraped some
of the snow off and realized that it was Carrie's
Ford Explorer.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
I was going to ask about her car.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Well now, you know, he was sure that it hadn't
been there the whole time. It made him wonder had
carried moved into his apartment complex. He called the police,
who came and impounded the car. A crime scene technician
processed the vehicle and found it to be extremely clean.
The seats had been recently vacuumed, and there was really
nothing of note in the car. There were no fingerprints
(39:53):
except for a single print on a mint container in
the center console, which was scanned and searched in the data,
but there was no match. The car was then returned
to Carrie's mom. She was surprised how clean it was
because Carrie typically left her car kind of messy, but
she assumed that the crime scene technicians must have cleaned
it before returning it to her. Nancy also applied for
(40:17):
and was granted conservatorship over Carrie's bank accounts. She found
that there had been no withdrawals from her accounts. Her
debit card had been used twice in mid November at
stores in Omaha. Her bank flagged them as suspicious transactions,
and they froze Carrie's account when she didn't respond to
their call. The relentless emails and texts showed no signs
(40:41):
of abating. In twenty thirteen, there were thousands of messages
from over thirty different email addresses and thirty different phone numbers,
and a dozen or more Facebook accounts. Mostly they were
coming in to Dave and Liz. Dave alone was receiving
an average of fifty to sixty messages a day, but
they were also coming to aim Me and Nancy. Dave
(41:02):
and Liz both allowed the police to download the contents
of their cell phones so that they had all the evidence.
Dave was still very much avoiding any type of serious
relationship with Liz, and he was still meeting other women online. However,
when he would meet someone, the woman would usually start
getting threatening messages from Carrie. One message said, quote, so
(41:23):
you must be Dave's new horror he has herpes and
the horror he was dating from the hor he was dating.
I would watch out for him unquote. Another message said
I will come kill you and your fucking kids. I
have killed a dog owned by Dave's last horror he
tried to be with, Oh my goodness, and another I
know where you live. I will be coming for you
(41:43):
and your son. I will kill your whole family. Some
of the women were like, yeah, you seem like a
nice guy, Dave, but I don't really need this. At
the same time, Liz was putting pressure on Dave for
more of a committed relationship, even though she was still
seeing Todd as well without him knowing. He and Liz
they still got along well enough, but he didn't like
(42:04):
her constant jealousy and the pressure. She finally got him
to commit to giving her one day a week Wednesday
evenings would belong to Liz in February.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
I mean, Liz, come on one day a week. Yeah,
want more for yourself.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
In February, Liz reported two incidents of her car being vandalized,
and in April someone scratched the words who Stop Seeing
Dave into the side of her car. Also in April,
Nancy got a call from an unknown number. It was
a man's voice. He said it was Dave Krupa and
he was calling to let her know that Carrie was
staying at a homeless shelter in Omaha and wanted Nancy
(42:43):
to pick her up. What hope once again ignited inside
of Nancy. She called the police to let them know
and they met her at the homeless shelter. The officer
asked Nancy to wait in the parking lot while he
went in and checked to see if Carrie was there
bringing a photo with him. Nancy's hopes were once again
dashed a few minutes later when he came back shaking
(43:03):
his head.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
That's so cruel.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
I know it is, isn't it. It's just horrible. That's
one of the most horrible things about this case. Like
you have your daughter is missing, and yet this person
keeps trying to give her some glimmer of hope. Yeah,
and then just dashes those hopes over and over again.
In May of twenty thirteen, now fifteen year old Maxwell
decided to try and make contact with his mom or
(43:27):
the person posing as his mom. He messaged Carrie on Facebook,
just saying Hi. The response came quickly, Hey, little man,
how are you? His mom had never referred to him
as little man, but he replied asking Carrie to answer three.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Questions, Oh smart Max, what.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Is my middle name? What was the name of our
first boxer? And who was my best friend when I
was growing up?
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:52):
These were questions, at least the last two that only
his mom would probably know the answers to There was
no response. One email sent in May had a picture
of Liz's kids. It looked like it had been taken
from outside her house looking in through a window. The
message said quote, these are the ugliest kids, just like
their horror mom. They should die with their horror mom
(44:14):
so I don't have to see their ugliness anymore. No
one wants her and her Brady kids around. Unquote. On
May eleventh, Carrie, and I use Carrie in quotes from
here on out because you know it's not really Carrie.
But she sent Dave a link to a page on
remembered dot com, which is a site where people post
obituaries and memorials to loved ones. The link was to
(44:37):
a page created as a memorial to Liz, with the
dates June twenty eighth, nineteen seventy five to May eleventh,
twenty thirteen. The obituary said, I didn't know her very well,
except that she was a whore and a man stealer.
She kept stealing my man. She is unable to get
her own man, so that she has to keep taking
everyone else's men. Thank god she has gone. Good riddance
(44:59):
to you. The next day, Dave got an email that said, quote,
I am trying to hire someone to get rid of
that horror Liz for us. You told me before you
wanted her gone, I can't do it myself because the
cops will figure it out. The email continued, asking if
she should also have Liz's kids killed. It closed with
I love you, Dave, and I'm glad you're in this
(45:20):
with me. I hope to see you soon, your beautiful Carrie.
Liz claimed to be terrified, but Dave did his best
to reassure her that Carrie was just trying to scare her.
In June, Dave was at Amy's house seeing his kids,
and when he got back to his apartment, he found
that someone had thrown a brick through the bedroom window
of his apartment. Carrie sent him an email taking responsibility.
(45:44):
Also in June, Dave found his car scratched with the
message quote Dave Love's fat horrors unquote. Oh while it
may seem obvious now that it wasn't really Carrie behind
all the harassment and vandalism, and we talked about this
a little bit, but Dave never suspected that it wasn't her.
Although Liz had certainly shown a history of being possessive
(46:06):
and jealous, he never suspected her because she was also
being targeted, and several times they would both get messages
from Carrie while they were together, and Liz's phone might
be sitting on the other side of the room. There
was another thing that happened in twenty thirteen that should
have tipped Dave off. He was walking home from the
bar one night. He didn't used to be to be
(46:27):
much of a drinker, but the constant stress and the
relentless onslaught of messages was getting to him, and he
started making a habit of hanging out at his local
watering hole after work. It was around eleven or twelve
at night, and he was in the parking lot of
his apartment complex walking home when he heard a noise.
He looked over and he saw Liz crawling on the ground.
(46:48):
She crept behind a car like she was hiding from him.
Dave called her name a couple of times, but there
was no answer. He was cold, and he was annoyed
and a little bit drunk, and so he just went inside.
He then got a text from her saying, quote, I'm sorry,
I'm drunk. I was over across the street at the
bar with my friends. I don't know what I'm doing unquote.
(47:09):
But this wasn't enough for Dave to suspect that Liz
might be behind all the harassment. In the summer of
twenty thirteen, Liz told Todd that she could no longer
pay her bills and she was going to become homeless.
Todd had already helped her a lot, but he felt
bad not only for her, but for her kids, and
so he offered to let them stay at his house.
His roommate had recently moved out, so he had the space.
(47:32):
She moved in, and Todd, thinking that Liz was his girlfriend,
expected that she would stay in his room, but she
immediately claimed the basement as her own. You might not
be surprised to hear that Liz was a horrible roommate.
She never offered to chip in for utilities or anything.
She was a slob. She never cleaned up after herself.
The basement quickly became a disaster area, with dirty clothes, trash,
(47:56):
fast food packaging, and more covering the floor, washed the dishes.
She rarely made dinner. When she did make dinner, it
was just for her and her kids. She never offered
anything to Todd. She loved fast food, and she would
often text Todd from the basement begging him to drive
to McDonald's. Todd was a pushover, so he would go
and buy dinner for her and the kids, and of
(48:17):
course she never offered to pay him back. Liz spent
most of her time when she was there hold up
in the basement, communicating with Todd via text. The two
did occasionally have sex, but it was rare. Todd quickly
regretted inviting her to move in and thought that maybe
if he paid for everything, she could save for money
and move out sooner. By late summer of twenty thirteen,
(48:40):
Dave was again getting fed up with Liz's jealousy and
her nagging, and he dumped her once again. Soon after that,
the Omaha Fire Department was called out to Liz's house.
She still hadn't completely moved out of her government subsidized house,
although most of her stuff was now at Todd's. When
the fire department arrived at Liz's house, the fire had
(49:00):
already burned itself out. It hadn't burned the whole house down,
but it did a lot of damage. There hadn't been
any people inside the house, but Liz and her kid's
four pets, two dogs, a cat, and a snake all
died from smoke. Inhalation. It didn't take long to figure
out that the fire was a result of arson. There
(49:20):
was a gas can on the floor of the living room,
a lighter fluid container in the kitchen, and the fire
had originated in multiple places, which is always suspicious. Liz
told investigators that it was carried. She showed them an
email that she had received early that morning that said,
hope you and your kids burned to death. Of course,
Liz immediately called Dave, freaking out and begging him to
(49:43):
come see her. He had dumped her, but now, of
course he felt bad because this was all his fault
for letting carry into their lives, so once again he
went and tried to comfort her. She told him she
had lost everything, even though she had really moved almost
all of her stuff to Todd's house already. Once again,
Carrie had somehow brought Dave and Liz back together again.
(50:06):
The rest of twenty thirteen was more of the same.
In August, Carrie texted Nancy, I'm in Omaha. I'm not
hurt mom. I miss everyone too. I just had a
breakdown and I think I'm getting over it. I should
have come to my senses sooner and realized the guy
wasn't worth it again, Nancy said, I need to hear
your voice to know it's really you this time. The
(50:27):
reply came, Okay, let me pull over once again. Nancy's
hopes started to rise, but the call never came.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Months ago, Carrie was supposed to call her when she
was like this, this is the last time, and so
she never Obviously she never called her. Then yeah, mom,
just let it go.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
Yeah, yep. In October, Dave showed up at work one
day to find a message spray painted in orange on
the front window of his shop, Dave Beats Women. In December,
someone broke into Dave's apart. There was writing on the
wall in red crayon that said go away, Whorr, and
some of Liz's clothing that was there had been slashed
(51:07):
with a knife. As the one year anniversary of Carrie's
disappearance passed, Dave was drinking regularly to deal with the stress.
He gained forty pounds during the year, and he constantly
had dark circles under his eyes. And with that, I
think it's a good point to break and end Part one.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
Holy moly, I'm like a bobblehead over here, shaking my head.
At all, this crazy story.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
I know, it's just it. It is insane. And how
long it went on, We're not even the insane.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Liz is insane, I mean, yes, yeah, crazy crazy. So
the police, So Carrie has been missing for how long?
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Now?
Speaker 3 (51:46):
A year?
Speaker 1 (51:47):
A year?
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (51:48):
And is anyone investigating her disappearance?
Speaker 3 (51:52):
I don't think they were actively doing a whole lot.
I think they thought it was a missing person. They
kind of believed that, oh, this person's harassing, so they
were investigating, like the harassment.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
I mean, come on, yeah, I know it's hindsight is
twenty twenty, but yeah, there should have been. Poor Carrie's
mom must have just been beside herself.
Speaker 3 (52:12):
Yeah, oh, I'm sure she was. Yeah, And I think.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
She was trying to get the investigation.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
She kept trying to convince the police that her daughter
was probably not alive anymore and they needed to investigate,
you know, from that perspective, and they just weren't having it.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Well, I hope you're gonna tell us how Max is
and Nancy. I will Carrie's mom, yes, because I am
worried about them right now. And Liz has two kids.
How old are her kids?
Speaker 3 (52:40):
I think they were somewhere around like maybe nine and
eleven years old at this point.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
So those poor kids have had a very tumultuous upbringing,
and I hope they're okay too.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
I hope so too. I don't really have any update
on them, but I will, Yeah, I will talk about
the other folks that you mentioned at the end of
part two.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
All right, at me some pictures, which of course we'll post.
Is always on social media. But yeah, Liz is I'm
not going to make fun of anyone's appearance. But she
looks she looks a little crazy. Yeah, Carrie looks like
a nice lady.
Speaker 3 (53:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:15):
Oh well that was That was quite a ride. Can
I unbuckle yet?
Speaker 3 (53:19):
Well you can unbuckle for a little bit, but part
two it is not going to be any less crazy.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
So uh, Like I said, I did hear the story before,
but I don't really remember other than Liz was pretending
to be Carrie. Yeah. Thank you so much for listening
to this episode of Love Mary Kill.
Speaker 3 (53:43):
Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, find us on social media,
or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
Please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com, slash love
Marykill for five dollars a month. You get early ad
free access and a monthly bonus this episode.
Speaker 3 (54:01):
Join us next Monday for another episode of Love Mary
Kill
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