February 16, 2024 • 38 mins
Being bisexual is often met with a whole lot of stereotypes, and there are a lot of misconceptions surrounding that topic, coming from both the heteronormative society and within the queer community. What are the unique challenges of coming out as a bisexual woman in India? What prejudices do bi people confront? And what is it like to navigate straight and queer spaces when you're bisexual?
In this episode of Love Matters, Leeza Mangaldas talks to writer and editor Saumyaa Vohra about her personal experiences. From coming out to yourself and your family to differences in dating men and women, join their insightful and open conversation. They also delve deep into the story of Saumyaa Vohra's book "One Night Only" – one of the few Indian novels to feature a bisexual protagonist. Find out how she came up with the idea and why she portrayed her character deliberately flawed and "the least likeable." Tune in now!
Leeza Mangaldas’ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leezamangaldas/
Saumyaa Vohra's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/saumyaavohra/
Credits:
Produced by: Patricia Szilagyi (DW), Charulata Biswas (IE)
Research & Guest acquisition: Sana Rizvi (DW)
Project Manager: Patricia Szilagyi (DW)
Editorial Support: Shashank Bhargava (IE), Khyati Rajvanshi (IE)
Executive Producer: Melanie von Marschalck (DW Life & Style), Anant Nath Sharma (IE)
Sound Editor: Suresh Pawar (IE)
Love Matters with Leeza Mangaldas is a cooperation between The Indian Express and DW, Germany’s international broadcaster.
Learn more about DW:https://www.facebook.com/dwasia
https://www.dw.com/
In this episode of Love Matters, Leeza Mangaldas talks to writer and editor Saumyaa Vohra about her personal experiences. From coming out to yourself and your family to differences in dating men and women, join their insightful and open conversation. They also delve deep into the story of Saumyaa Vohra's book "One Night Only" – one of the few Indian novels to feature a bisexual protagonist. Find out how she came up with the idea and why she portrayed her character deliberately flawed and "the least likeable." Tune in now!
Leeza Mangaldas’ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leezamangaldas/
Saumyaa Vohra's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/saumyaavohra/
Credits:
Produced by: Patricia Szilagyi (DW), Charulata Biswas (IE)
Research & Guest acquisition: Sana Rizvi (DW)
Project Manager: Patricia Szilagyi (DW)
Editorial Support: Shashank Bhargava (IE), Khyati Rajvanshi (IE)
Executive Producer: Melanie von Marschalck (DW Life & Style), Anant Nath Sharma (IE)
Sound Editor: Suresh Pawar (IE)
Love Matters with Leeza Mangaldas is a cooperation between The Indian Express and DW, Germany’s international broadcaster.
Learn more about DW:https://www.facebook.com/dwasia
https://www.dw.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
I'm Lisa Mangeldas, and this isLove Matters. What is it like to
be a bisexual Indian woman? Whatare the misconceptions and stereotypes that persist around
bisexuality, and what are the uniquechallenges and joys of coming out as by
That's what we're going to be talkingabout today on this episode with our guests
Somyo Gora. Somya has had anillustrious career as a fashion and lifestyle journalist.
(00:28):
She's also recently written a book calledOne Night Only, which is one
of the few Indian novels with abisexual protagonist. Samyo was so excited to
have you here. Thank you forjoining us, Thank you for having me.
I want to start with asking foryou to share how you like to
define bisexuality. Oh, that's oneI think. Of course, there is
(00:49):
that textbook definition of a person whois into both SIS men and SIS women,
But I think bisexuality is essentially likefor me. I think it just
was at some point in my liferealizing that I wasn't straight, and that
I had been straight passing for longenough that I hadn't really thought about it.
And I think that in the moreconversations I had with other people who
(01:14):
are bisexual by way of doing storiesabout it and just trying to collect more
information and curiosity. I found thatit was fairly common for most by people
India to discover this about themselves incrediblylate, because you sort of lean into
the heteronomative part of yourself and youhave that luxury unlike a lot of other
queer people to be able to leaninto the heteronomativity and just kind of ignore
(01:37):
a certain part of yourself. ButI think to me, being bisexual essentially
means a coach just sort of comesto mind. I know that it was
used for the phrase for the termpansexual, but I remember Shit's Creak had
this moment where the character David picksup a bottle of wine and says,
I don't really look at the label. I just like the wine. And
I think that that kind of encompassesa lot of bisexuality and fan sexuality to
(02:04):
me, which is that you freeyourself of subscribing to that label. I
love that it reminds me of brquote she wrote that you know, why
would I choose between men and women'schoosing between cake and ice cream, You'd
be daft to choose. Plus truelove is basically complete acceptance, which is
so rare that when it happens,why would you care what's between someone's legs.
(02:24):
It really spoke to me. Itreally spoke to me because I do
think sexuality, if we're honest andreally able to think about it deeply,
because most of us just sort ofplod along with a script that's been fed
to us. We don't have thesort of ability even to question. It's
too destabilizing for the reality that weexpected to lead. You know, I
think of my own sexuality also asan ongoing and infinite process of discovery.
(02:47):
I feel like I'm really beginning toquestion my own heterosexuality as well. So
thing it's important we talk about thisstuff. But I imagine despite all of
this, it is quite difficult tofigure out how you want to let the
people around you know, right,especially when you come out in later in
life. I guess it's kind ofexpectations already created around who you are and
(03:09):
you have to disrupt those. Sowas it difficult coming out both to straight
and queer friends. I'm curious.The strange thing is it is a very
privileged answer to be able to sayno, it wasn't that hard because I
realized how what a luxury that is. To know that to a certain degree,
at least you're going to be familyis always a different cattlefish, but
(03:31):
to be in social spaces where youknow that you're likely to find acceptance,
and having been an editor in fashionand lifestyle for a long time, it's
a space that is strangely enough tothe outside world not terribly accepting, but
within it has been surprisingly accepting ofdifferent kinds of people who come from different
(03:53):
kinds of spaces and have different sexualities. So I think that for me,
just the idea of coming out wasstaggered. I think the first thing that
happened was that it took me agesto just be able to come out to
myself. Over time, I've alsorealized that's the only coming out that matters,
because, as somebody who's also workedin journalism for a long time,
a lot of queer stories are centeredaround coming out. I myself have done
(04:15):
several pieces about coming out stories,and over time I've realized that that there
shouldn't be coming out stories, thatcoming out is a very personal and deeply
private process that isn't for everyone,and for some people you're never going to
want to talk about it on apublic forum like a podcast, and that's
absolutely okay. And for a lotof people, you're going to use that
(04:40):
public forum to be able to makeother people more comfortable about talking about it.
And I think the fact that there'sspace for both those things is,
or that there should be space forboth those things, is what's incredibly important,
because for me, I had theluxury of knowing that I could come
out to family, to a partner, to friends and be met with a
(05:01):
degree of acceptance. You know,of course, there's always that initial hm
and then because like you said,you're disrupting a certain perspective that people have
of you. But the fact thatI had the luxury to know that I
would walk into a certain degree ofacceptance is one that a lot of people
don't. So I think that forme, one of the key things about
coming out is or the question orthe conversation around coming out, is that
(05:25):
people understand that it's just as okayto not it's just as okay to say
that a lot of people I know, for example, will only come out
in spaces where they feel incredibly comfortable. It has nothing to do with friends
and family, So they will findlike minded people and come out to those
people because they know that there isacceptance here. And I think that the
only thing that truly matters is feelingsafe enough to be able to do it,
(05:45):
if at all. Yeah, Imean in an ideal world, I
wish that it was so safe andso much of a non issue that you
didn't even have, Like heterosexuals don'tcome out as heterosexual, right, Yeah,
but we assume that to be thedefault that in order to be read
way you want to be read,or to be able to express affection the
way you want to coming out justas a practical you know, as an
aspect of like leading the life youwant to lead. I wish we didn't
(06:09):
even have to do that, right, where sexuality was understood its expansive instead
of rigidly just one way. Yeah. I think around bisexuality particularly, there
are certain prevalent stereotypes and misconceptions,right, and sometimes it can feel like
you're neither straight enough nor queer enough. There's a lot that's been written about
by erasure and biphobia. Like,say, for example, a lot of
(06:32):
people have asked me that what happenswhen you choose a man when you're dating
a man and you're monogamous, say, for example, you're not by anymore.
So it's really interesting because there's alot of conversation around if you do
choose a partner of the opposite sex, then you're technically head to normative in
your relationship. That's something that's alwaysbeen ticky in terms of navigating both queer
(06:55):
and straight spaces because you don't stopbeing by because you have a partner particular
sex gender. I mean, youcould be single, right and I think,
yeah, you don't have to proveyour sexuality to anyone, even though
it can feel like that's the onlyway to validate your claims about your sexuality,
right, Yeah, which is unfortunate. I wish that again, that
we didn't that there was no pressure, yeah, you know, to come
(07:17):
out or not to come out,to have relationships with x ys, that
people to show that you can formor not. I wish not of it
mattered, but we're still still gettingthere. Do you think that there was
a difference in how men and womenreacted to or tend to react in general
to bisexual women, Like, yeah, absolutely, and it's exactly what you
(07:39):
think exactly. I think for me, what was really interesting was that I
had a certain perceived fear of howweirdly, I had a perceived fear of
how women would react. Because forme, I've always had a very women's
centric life in terms of just andthis is not not even from a sexuality
or only from a sexuality point ofview. My strong was what network has
(08:00):
always been women. So for me, the big fair was not telling the
men in my life, friends orcolleagues or whatever that I was bisexual,
because I expected a certain reaction andit came often enough. But it was
about women, and I didn't knowhow certain women would react, like friends
who had, say, for example, gotten ready with me and stripped in
(08:20):
front of me and been naked withme, and it had been completely non
sexual. But I wondered now thatwould that be tainted? Would they be
thinking about things from the perspective orshould I not have done that because she's
by And that bothered me deeply.The idea of that bothered me deeply.
And luckily I encountered a lot lessof that than I thought I would,
because with my closest friends there wasthat sense of okay, you know.
(08:41):
There were a couple of friends whowondered if I'd been attracted to them.
There were a couple of friends whowondered whether they were my physical type.
These questions propped up, and Ithink that for me it didn't really respond
very badly to it because I feltlike it was just curiosity and it was
okay. And I feel like ifwe get angry and offended by curiosity,
(09:01):
people will be afraid to ask questions, are afraid to challenge, and sort
of have conversations with themselves. Sonone of that really offended me. But
with men, yes, I dothink that there is a degree of fetishization
that happens. I believe pornography.Phornography is great, it is made from
a respectful lens, which it oftenisn't. But I think that what tends
to happen is that because of thatfetishization by women are not taken quite as
(09:26):
seriously by a lot of men,especially men that will date them or men
that will be in relationships with them, because women don't go out and that
becomes a scary place to be becauseit invalidates your sexuality in a way.
So I think that for me,I dealt with a lot more of that
from men than I did from women, but with women, I felt like
(09:48):
there was a lot more quick kindnessand understanding and acceptance. Women always deliver
no passion. And what about theexperience of dating women, I wonder.
I feel like I'm myself very bycurious. I'm still some ways to go,
I suppose, but I sometimes thinkabout how like, oh, my
goodness, I'm going to have tolearn a bit from you know, it'll
(10:11):
be like dating for the first timeall over again, because you're so familiar
with what to do in a heterosexualsituation. In the courtship sort of like
landscape, whereas it can be kindof new right to figure out how to
even though it's so familiar as youand your body and everything as well as
a woman. But like courting awoman is intimidating to me because it's just
new, you know, even Ikind of want to do it. Was
(10:31):
there like a learning car. Ohfor me, You're going to be very
disappointed to learn that I haven't actuallyever dated a woman. I've been with
women, but I've never dated awoman because I'm terrified. I'm terrified of
with men. Somehow, the ideaof rejection is not nearly scary. I
don't know why. Perhaps it's becausewomen's opinions matter so much more, But
I think that the idea of makinga woman uncomfortable with an advance really frightens
(10:54):
me. So for me, ifI've ever been with a woman, it's
happened because the woman has made theadvance. I've known that there is okay,
this is I'm interested in this personand they're interested in me, so
everything works out. But there aremany a time I've been interested in someone
from Afar and not done anything aboutit because I've just been terrified at the
idea of going up to someone thatis straight or will be made uncomfortable by
(11:16):
the idea and broaching the subject.And I think that what tends to happen
is that people tend to assume thatit's probably a lot easier for women because
we're already incredibly physical with each other. Women are warm and comfortable and kind.
I think of the restroom syndrome alot right, Like when you walk
into a women's room at a baror restaurant, women will just be incredibly
(11:37):
comfortable with each other. They willfix each other's hair, and they will
lend each other make up, andthey will tell each other how incredible they
look and while as a person,as a woman, I think that that's
fantastic in terms of what it doesfor our ability to be intimate and to
emmote with each other as a bymoment. It's tricky because you have absolutely
no idea what the boundaries are.So I think for me, I are
(11:58):
on the side of caution. I'mvery careful and that's resulted in me practically
dating a woman because I'm so terrifiedof the idea of making someone uncomfortable.
I guess it's also just a process, right, Yeah, I feel like
dating men seemed terrifying when I waslike sixteen thirty three. It seems,
you know, like I know whatI'm doing, so maybe I don't know.
I mean, I imagine it'll getmore familiar. Yeah, yeah,
(12:22):
one day to old ladies and we'lltalk about all the wonderful women. We'll
do it, I know. Okay. I want to talk to you about
your book. Yes, it's calledOne Night Only. You guys should get
it, and I'd love for youto just give a little summary of the
of you know, your vision behindit and what it's about for people who
haven't yet read it. So funnily, enough. I think one of the
(12:46):
interesting things about One Night Only inthe context of our conversation about bisexuality was
when we were talking about the ideaof coming out what I wrote One Night
Only. I was thirty. Iwrote it in the Pandemic, and I
didn't quite realize that I had startedwriting my protagonist as bisexual without even thinking
(13:07):
about it. And it was thefirst time that I realized that I did
want to have a conversation about itthat was outside of my safe space and
my people. And it was thefirst time that I realized that not only
did I want to have a conversationabout it, I wanted a conversation about
it that was incredibly real without justI mean, it would always be sort
(13:33):
of like colored by the lens ofmy privilege. And I've been quite open
about that. I've talked about thefact that this is not the experience of
the Indian bisexual woman who is froma village in rojasthan it isn't, but
that's also not my story to tell. I'm a firm believer in the idea
of people being able to tell theirown stories and being able to hand over
(13:54):
the mic to people so that theycan do that in a real authentic way.
But the thing is that at thispoint in time, even the story
of an Indian bisexual woman who camefrom a certain degree privilege hadn't been told.
There was really no conversation around bisexualityat all. Bisexuality had often been
reduced to a trope. It wasalways a side character. It was always
(14:16):
a very specific trope that kept tothe stereotypes around it and didn't really push
back or deviate because it worked.It worked as a character, especially from
a male gaze perspective. And Ithink that the reason that I wrote that
character as bisexual without even thinking aboutit was because clearly there were things that
I wanted to address, and Ifelt like perhaps I was already addressing them
(14:39):
in conversations I was having in myspaces, but I wanted to start those
conversations outside of my spaces. SoI think that's what happened with One Night
only in terms of writing a bisexualprotagonist. It wasn't by design, it
happened and I realized that I wantedto keep her bisexual because she had something
to say, and I think forme, the rest of the book kind
(15:03):
of built around that and the othercharacters that I built are definitely much more
likable. I like them a lotbetter. Why do you dislike her?
Sorry to intervene, I dislike Ithink I dislike her, and most people
who read it will dislike her themost because the other three are just much
more likable people. They seem muchmore sorted in terms of their perspectives on
things. They're less judgmental, they'reless caught up in themselves and their ideas
(15:26):
of the world. And I thinkthe reason I wrote Rubani, who is
my protagonist, as a little bitunlikable, is because I believe that we
tend to see ourselves much more inunlikable characters, and that makes us uncomfortable,
and I wanted that. I wantedpeople to be able to identify with
the problems and the flaws that Rabanihad. I wanted also to be a
(15:48):
little braver with the way I wrotethis character, because I feel like most
people tend to write queer characters froma with the safety on a gun,
essentially like they're very careful because theydon't want to be perceived as bigoted.
They don't want to be perceived asproblematic, so they will either I mean,
back in the day, you wrotequeer characters just terribly because you could,
and now you write qu characters verycarefully, very guardedly, because you're
(16:12):
afraid of something being misinterpreted. Youwant to come off on the right side
of things, so you're not bravein terms of writing flawed quer characters,
queer characters that are problematic and arejudgmental. There is so much judgment within
the queer space, within different spectrumsof queerness, and that's really not talked
about it mainstream media at all becausemost people even writing content about queer people
(16:36):
as straight and they're too afraid totake that leap. So I think when
I was writing this particular character,I made her unlikable because there are lots
of unlikable bisexual people, there arelots of unlikable queer people. There are
lots of unlikable people and that stillmay have something incredibly interesting to offer,
but they're not going to be instantlylovable just because they're queer. So I
wanted to write her as a realperson, a person who was but also
(17:00):
a person. And I think whatI enjoyed the most through the book was
that a lot of her own ideasof herself, of relationships of sex,
which is one of the big thingsthat the book talks about. Her perspective
on just having sex and always doingit within the construct of a relationship and
never giving herself the agency to lookoutside of that and even figure out whether
(17:22):
she wants to have casual sex ornot, whether she likes the idea of
it or not, whether she's hadconversations with herself about her body, what
she likes, what she wants.I think that one of the things that
I really just wanted to do withthis character was was have those conversations in
a way that makes you a littleuncomfortable at first, but at the same
time you're kind of just learning alittle bit with this character as the book
(17:45):
goes on, and she doesn't comeout of it a changed woman and now
she's had an epiphany, but she'sjust come away thinking about things and having
conversations and starting conversations. And that'sreally the main thing that I wanted the
book to do, which is thatI wanted people to read it and start
thinking about the things and questioning thethings that they hadn't questioned about themselves in
a lot of time. I lovethat. I also like that you pointed
(18:07):
out that the burden of perfection shouldnot be placed on marginalized groups, you
know, I mean even I thinkthere's this unfortunate pressure that we put on
ourselves also to constantly overcompen sy.There's so few seats at the table and
so little representation that like, ifyou're a woman, you dare not say
anything stupid or problematic, or you'renot allowed to be flawed because you have
(18:29):
to be the perfect ambassadors and thisgroup, right, And I think that
happens with the ways in which wewrite or see represented. Rather we are
characters, female characters and things likethat, And I think it is so
important. We're all human, right, Why didn't you deny humanity to people
of whom you expect perfection one hundredpercent of the time. Yeah, so
(18:52):
thanks for pointing that out. Iwas really intrigued by that. And I
think likability also is overrated, Likewhy must we all be likable? You
know, why must the marginalized belikable to have on this spot exactly?
And this is in general, Imean, I'm sorry I digress, but
like this is in general a problemthat I've had with the writing of women
in fiction and the writing of womenin pop culture and media for the longest
(19:15):
time, which is that for avery long time, unless the story was
specifically about a female character or awoman character rather, she was not fleshed
out. She was again a tropeof some kind and fit into that trope
to supplement the story of a man. And over time, because Hollywood has
had to be apologetic about that,and in general pop culture and media,
(19:37):
even Indian cinema has had to bemore apologetic about that women, there's been
a turn and now women are beingwritten as these superhuman we can do it
all, we can have it allcreatures. And it's awful because you're still
not writing women as people. You'renot writing women as people who are strong,
(19:59):
but not in as people who arecapable of making mistakes and learning from
them or not learning from them,capable of being great people in some respects
and terrible people in some respects,and capable of being judgmental and still kind.
So I think, exactly, Yeah, it bothers me that it's still
at the end of the day,or I feel like a lot of popular
media is trying to overcompensate for theshallow way in which women were written for
(20:22):
ages by now writing women as thesesuperhuman creatures, and it's equally problematic because
it's just still not creating a spacewhere women I mean, like, for
example, most recently the Barbie moviemade that point terribly, but I think
that, you know, I mean, despite the very obvious narrative, I
(20:45):
think that it had an interesting pointin its heart, which is that women
need to see themselves on screen.Women need to read themselves in books,
and the way that they're going todo that is to, like, at
least for me, when I readfemale character, look for imperfections because it
makes me comfortable to read imperfections ina character. I have never responded to
(21:07):
characters who are either inherently good orinherently bad, sometimes even more inherently bad.
You might respond more to somebody that'sinherently bad because you want to see
the darker sides of yourself reflected inthings. You want to see mistakes being
made. You want because it givesyou comfort, the same way that Madonna
was a queer icon because she wasbald and brave and more bullet brass by
(21:30):
Gautier and change the narrative. Youwant to see characters that can help change
the narrative for you, because themore you normalize that, and the more
you normalize real flawed women in popculture and media, the more comfortable you're
going to be about feeling or beingflawed and feeling imperfect. I love that,
Thank you so much. I wantto also ask a little bit about
(21:52):
the joys are quenas I think thatso often, since we're talking about media
representation, the focus is on thestruggle, how it is, how hard
it is to come out awful,advice you got bullied, you know,
like we always we see these victimnarratives in most pop cultural representations, and
there's also so much joy, rightyes, yeah, Instead of me going
on and on, you tell meabout the experience of both of writing the
(22:14):
character but also personally, because itfelt like the pandemic was a time of
reflection from what we've talked of beforewriting this book was also personally very fulfilling
for you and clarifying for you.Right, yeah, No, absolutely,
And I think that that's I'm actuallyreally happy that you asked that question because
it's something that I hope comes upso that I can accel good about it.
I think that you're right because atthe end of the day. I
(22:37):
feel like what tends to happen withqueer stories is it feels like if you
don't talk about the struggle, it'snot validated enough. And I think that
the queer community in general is quitetired of it. And I think in
general people are quite tired of hearingthat narrative. And it's not like that
narrative needs to die, but itneeds to become part of the discourse rather
than the entire discourse itself. AndI think that what doesn't necessarily happen enough
(23:02):
is queer joy and also just queernormalcy, you know, like going into
the mundanity of being queer, whichin some ways is so similar to the
mondanity you're being straight, Going intosmaller experiences, going into the self doubt
that you have that is not necessarilyeven about being queer. What also tends
to happen is that when you seea lot of queer characters on screen or
(23:25):
you read about them in literature,that queerness is their entire identity. And
for me, that was something thatI was very conscious to avoid, which
is that in my head, beingbisexual is part of who I am,
it's not who I am at all, And it's never been who I am,
and it had nothing to do withthe fact that save ten years ago,
I hadn't come out to myself becausebeing straight is not somebody's entire identity
(23:45):
either, so why should being queerbe your entire identity. So I think
that one thing that I do seehappening a little bit more now is just
queer romance, quaer joy, questioningof queer identity that is largest and that
isn't limited to just whittling a persondown to their sexuality, and I'm glad
(24:07):
that it started to happen. Isee it in like there's a graphic novel
called heart Stopper, which became aNetflix series, and I think that that
was so interesting to me because itlooked at queerness from the lens of young
love. There's a character that isby and there's a character that's gay,
and they're both just such sweet kids, and you're seeing these kids also just
being kids in England, dealing withthe various other factions of their life,
(24:30):
and the queerness is at the heartof the story, but it's not the
story on its own. It's notthese characters on their own. And I
think that to me again, itloops back to the same principle of writing
women as people, it's about writingqueer people as people, as people who
are just as capable of Like,I want to see queer joy, but
(24:51):
I want to see very much,But I also really want to see queer
normalcy. I want to see queercouples being able to get married but also
be able to get divorced, becausethat's what being normal truly is, when
you're afforded all the luxuries of thestraight person. I'd love to see more
of that in writing in just everydaylife. That would be lovely, butoquere
people to be afforded the same senseof normalcy as the state person. Yeah,
(25:15):
I love that. I hope that, like, you know, more
radically. One step further, Ifeel like all straightness should be queered,
you know, like why get marriedat all? Why does anyone get married?
Part of me wishes that we couldlike abolish the institution as opposed to
having to fight for the right,you know. Yeah, but that's very
idealistic. Well, we should allhave the right before, at the very
(25:36):
least right. It would be niceif we didn't, if marriage wasn't even
the platform, but which the theomeativerights were being bequeathed or you know,
various other like the heteronormative bar isso low. Actually we have to fight
for those to just have that.Whereas I wish we could like radically shift
the way we look at things altogether, but perhaps that's very idealistic. But
(25:57):
as we rap O, I wonderwhether there's any sort of insights or learnings
you hold very precious that perhaps otherviewers who are on similar stages of their
own journey as I am, aswell to some extent, just sort of
figuring it out when you're questioning yoursexuality and maybe you think that what you've
thus far held as who you aremight in fact not be all of what
(26:22):
there is to know. And it'sa process of discovery, right, Yeah,
Do you have any insights or evenadvice you want to leave people with
in terms of just how you thinkingabout sexuality and who you are sexually?
I think what you said at thebeginning of the podcast is really interesting,
which is that you're currently in dialoguewith yourself about you know, what your
straightness even means, and that you'vealways been by curious and you're still thinking
(26:44):
about and you're considering it, andI think that to me, that that's
really it, which is that youknow, at the end of the day,
the only thing that really matters isthat you have open dialogue with yourself
because I think this even like,for example, I'm bisexual and this is
what I know about myself at thisparticular point in time. And I think
that as long as we acknowledge thatthat this is what you know about yourself
at this point in time, Ihave been straight thus far. You may
(27:07):
be straight for the rest of yourlife. That's absolutely fine. You might
find that you're not. But ifyou have a perceived notion of who you
are and you're terrified at the ideaof how things will disassemble, if you
question that or push against that,then you're very unlikely to discover. Like
I mean, you're somebody who talksabout the orgasm in such great detail and
(27:30):
how there are so many layers toit and how you know finding it and
finding it in different versions and wayscan bring you so much joy. And
the idea is simply, at theend of the day, it all comes
from freeing yourself up. It comesfrom freeing yourself up of the pressure of
things having to work a certain wayor function a certain way, and I
think that to me, it perhapstwo very different things, but it loops
(27:52):
back to the same thing, whichis that when you have an idea of
how something ought to work or whatsomething ought to be, and then you
will function with affirmation bias. Youwill find reasons to allow yourself to continue
believing what you've always believed. Andthe minute you tell yourself that you don't
know and that you'll figure it out, then the chances that you will figure
(28:15):
out the things that make you happy. And this is yes, it's of
course it's about sexuality. It isjust, but it's also just about who
you are as a person in relationships. Like one thing that I know we
haven't talked about today, but onething that I feel very strongly about also
is relationship constructs. Like we werejust talking about marriage, and to me,
marriage is something that is so deeprooted in monogamy. And again,
(28:37):
monogamy is something just like straightness andheteronomativity, that we're conditioned with, and
very few of us will question theidea of monogamy. Very few of us
will go, oh, there's somethingoutside of the structure that could work for
me. I can find companionship inmultiple forms or not. I can find
different measures of companionships that function together. I can have phases in my life
(28:57):
where a certain structure works from pointday to point B, and then I
feel like a certain structure will workbetter for me. Lator. I can
be open now and changed to monogamy. Lator, I can be monogamous now
and change to being open or polyamorouslater. So I think that one thing
that I feel is at the rootof all of it is asking yourself how
much of who you are is determinedby what you've been taught and what you've
(29:21):
been asked or rather perhaps even insome cases push to believe, and how
much of it is what you're choosing, because you might find that after a
lot of questioning, you're still choosingto be straight, You're still choosing to
be monogamous for now. But aslong as you have that conversation and you
have that dialogue with yourself, Ithink that that's honestly like the healthiest thing
just and I hope that conversation happenswith yourself and with people around you,
(29:45):
because sometimes what other people need tohave the conversation with themselves is to have
that conversation with you, how doyou think the experience of bisexuality or navigating
by sexuality differs within straight spaces versusqueer spaces. I think the thing that's
at the center of both is thatthere is a degree of other ring that
makes it very tricky to feel likeyou really belong in either space. And
(30:07):
I think that one thing that tendsto happen is that you tend to,
perhaps at least in the conversations thatI've had and sometimes in my own experience
as well. I'm not proud ofit, but what you tend to do
is you tend to play up acertain aspect when you're around a certain space
because you feel that desire to belongmore so, I will perhaps talk about
(30:30):
it, talk about being by significantlyless in a group of straight people if
I don't feel comfortable, if Ifeel like it is a space that isn't
necessarily going to be as accepting oras kind as I would hope. There
is that ability to do straight passand to simply not really bring it up
or not make it part of theconversation. But the other side of that
(30:52):
is feeling like you need to leaninto your sexuality a lot more when you're
in quaer spaces, because otherwise youwon't necessary be taken seriously isn't the right
word, but be quite as acceptedor treated as somebody that belongs in that
space. And so in that desireto feel queer enough, you tend to
perhaps play up your quarerness because youfeel the need to find a space that
(31:17):
belongs and you know in your headthat it's never fully going to be a
hedonomeative space. So it's interesting anddouble edged because you find that you need
to pull it different strings to beable to fit into different spaces, and
yet you never fully kind of fitinto either. What are the similarities and
the difference is in what intimacy canfeel like with men versus women. Ooh,
(31:45):
that's a really interesting question. Ithink that what's really interesting is the
similarities. I think is that intimacythen is just intimacy, because you know,
if you're truly comfortable and close tosomeone then in that moment, and
they don't really they're a whine nota label. But I think the differences
(32:05):
are interesting because at least for me, I felt that, you know,
I mean, just women are justso much soft in their approach and I
feel like it's a lot of I'mnot trying to trivialize it or play into
the stereotype, but and it's notto say that every single woman is going
to fit this PROD spectrum definition orevery single man is going to fit that
PROD spectrum definition. But I thinkthat women have a sense of how they
(32:30):
want to be touched, and thatthen translates into how they touch you.
There's also more thoughtfulness because I thinkthat women in general can be more careful
creatures. We're careful with our bodies, We're careful with the way we sort
of behave and the way we function, and I feel like that translates a
lot into I think the word I'mlooking for is deliberate, Like women are
(32:52):
more deliberate in terms of there isa thoughtfulness. And I'm not trying to
say that it can't be wild andintense and incredibly physical. Absolutely can,
but it's not. It will neverbe reckless, it will never be disrespectful,
I suppose, And I think thatthat's a very very comforting and interesting
(33:14):
place to be when you have thatsense of there is a much higher likelihood
that a woman is likely to bemore deliberate in the way they you're together
than a man will be, butnot always, not always to say what
is live? I like that.I like that. I think that as
someone who's by curious myself, Ioften sort of tried with intrepidation around disclosing
(33:37):
that to people, because there's alsosomething to be as many conveniences I stand
to lose also, right, aswe mentioned, destabilizing to the sort of
status quo, especially if you're ina relationship with a man you know and
his family and your family. Itis hard to tell families most families or
(33:58):
come out as queer to your family, absolutely, especially if you've been the
good straight girl as far so,how did you sort of navigate that?
What I'm curious about the process ofgoing from straight to by curious to bisexual
and conveying that out loud. Whatwas the journey like for you? I
think the journey still ongoing. What'sinteresting is that even though I had the
dialogue with myself six or seven yearsago, I told my partner almost immediately,
(34:22):
but I told friends a little bitlater. A lot of people found
out when I did a piece aboutbeing bisexual, when closer to when my
book was commissioned, and then ofcourse when my book came out, it
was everywhere. But there were someconversations I chose to have in person,
and like I remember very distinctly tellingmy mother, and my mother was very
(34:43):
kind about it, and she wasvery open about it, and in general,
she's always raised me to be veryopen about these conversations, so I
wasn't a surprise that that was herreaction. So it was important for me
to tell her. But there weresome family members that I didn't feel like
it was that important to have theconversation with because I wasn't sure that it
would be my with the same kindnessand acceptance. And there was some conversations
that was just scared of, likemy nanny, you know, And I
(35:05):
was like, I don't know howto have this conversation with my nanny.
So she found out that my booklaunch, you dedicate your book to her.
I dedicated my book and her andmy daddy, who passed when I
was much younger. But I thinkthat for me, it was something that
I didn't really know how to sitdown and address with her, and I
just chose to let it unfold atthe book launch, and and that was
(35:28):
that it was just and then wenever really talked about it, and I
was like, that's okay too.You know, it's fine if it's not
something you have questions about or youwant to go into. I think that
telling families and navigating it with familiescan be very, very tricky, which
is why that needs to become somethingwhere you have to ask yourself, do
I even want to do this inthe first place, Like, I mean,
this is not my story in particular, but there's a non binary friend
(35:51):
of mine and they basically chose neverto tell their family because they were like,
they're not going to understand. Thereis really no point. I know
exactly what they're like and they willnot get it, and I do not
want the stress and the toll itwill take on my mental health of having
to navigate with it with them constantly. So to the world, they will
be who they are, They're verycomfortable who they are, but to their
(36:14):
family it's he So it's something that'sso deeply personal, and I think that
nobody else has the right to commenton it. And I think that if
you, for example, are inthat process of discovery and you're not ready
to disclose that process of discovery toanyone, that's absolutely fine. I think
the only tricky thing that happens iswhen you put the burden of that process
(36:35):
of discovery on people who are weI once had an incident where I was
with someone who was a straight girland the next morning basically said, you
know, this is so much funand I've always thought about having a threesome
and blah blah blah, but youknow, I mean, you should just
know that I'm straight. And Iwas like, that's fine. But one
thing that became very clear to mewas that I had had my own journey
(36:58):
with sexuality and I did not wantto be somebody else's guinea pig. And
I was okay about this, ButI know a lot of other people who
haven't been who've had their hearts brokenby straight people who were just dabbling in
something. But I think that theprocess of discovery should also bear in mind
the feelings of the queer people thatyou might be meeting and that you might
be with in the process of yourdiscovery. So I think that as long
(37:22):
as it's an ongoing dialogue with yourselfwhere you have the ability to be respectful
of other people's feelings and your own. It's a great thing to do,
like be by curious, but aslong as you want come back to being
straight later if you find that allit was was curiosity and you find that
you're happier in who you've always been, or you might find that you're not
happier at who you've always been,and basically just giving yourself that leeway to
(37:45):
figure it out as time goes onand then keep reassessing. I think one
thing that also happens is that alot of people think that they've found their
label and now they can't deviate fromthat label. That's not true. You
might find that you might find thatsomething is part of who you are right
now, and you might find thatsomething is no longer about. You may
have been straight all your life andnot really questioned it, and then you
(38:07):
might find over the years that's changing. Maybe it's always been there, maybe
it hasn't. You have no idea, but you will know until you find
out. Indeed, thanks so much, Samya, it's been such a pleasure
talking to you. Thanks so soso much for joining us on Love Matters,
and thank you for tuning in.I hope that you enjoyed this episode
Love Matters is produced by Indian Expressand DW, Germany's international broadcaster. If
(38:29):
you have a question or insight you'dlike to share, please write to us
at Lovematters at DW dot com.We'd love it if you shared this,
Please rate it wherever you're listening orwatching. Till next time. This is
me Lisamangeldas and I believe Love Matters
I'm Lisa Mangeldas, and this isLove Matters. What is it like to
be a bisexual Indian woman? Whatare the misconceptions and stereotypes that persist around
bisexuality, and what are the uniquechallenges and joys of coming out as by
That's what we're going to be talkingabout today on this episode with our guests
Somyo Gora. Somya has had anillustrious career as a fashion and lifestyle journalist.
(00:28):
She's also recently written a book calledOne Night Only, which is one
of the few Indian novels with abisexual protagonist. Samyo was so excited to
have you here. Thank you forjoining us, Thank you for having me.
I want to start with asking foryou to share how you like to
define bisexuality. Oh, that's oneI think. Of course, there is
(00:49):
that textbook definition of a person whois into both SIS men and SIS women,
But I think bisexuality is essentially likefor me. I think it just
was at some point in my liferealizing that I wasn't straight, and that
I had been straight passing for longenough that I hadn't really thought about it.
And I think that in the moreconversations I had with other people who
(01:14):
are bisexual by way of doing storiesabout it and just trying to collect more
information and curiosity. I found thatit was fairly common for most by people
India to discover this about themselves incrediblylate, because you sort of lean into
the heteronomative part of yourself and youhave that luxury unlike a lot of other
queer people to be able to leaninto the heteronomativity and just kind of ignore
(01:37):
a certain part of yourself. ButI think to me, being bisexual essentially
means a coach just sort of comesto mind. I know that it was
used for the phrase for the termpansexual, but I remember Shit's Creak had
this moment where the character David picksup a bottle of wine and says,
I don't really look at the label. I just like the wine. And
I think that that kind of encompassesa lot of bisexuality and fan sexuality to
(02:04):
me, which is that you freeyourself of subscribing to that label. I
love that it reminds me of brquote she wrote that you know, why
would I choose between men and women'schoosing between cake and ice cream, You'd
be daft to choose. Plus truelove is basically complete acceptance, which is
so rare that when it happens,why would you care what's between someone's legs.
(02:24):
It really spoke to me. Itreally spoke to me because I do
think sexuality, if we're honest andreally able to think about it deeply,
because most of us just sort ofplod along with a script that's been fed
to us. We don't have thesort of ability even to question. It's
too destabilizing for the reality that weexpected to lead. You know, I
think of my own sexuality also asan ongoing and infinite process of discovery.
(02:47):
I feel like I'm really beginning toquestion my own heterosexuality as well. So
thing it's important we talk about thisstuff. But I imagine despite all of
this, it is quite difficult tofigure out how you want to let the
people around you know, right,especially when you come out in later in
life. I guess it's kind ofexpectations already created around who you are and
(03:09):
you have to disrupt those. Sowas it difficult coming out both to straight
and queer friends. I'm curious.The strange thing is it is a very
privileged answer to be able to sayno, it wasn't that hard because I
realized how what a luxury that is. To know that to a certain degree,
at least you're going to be familyis always a different cattlefish, but
(03:31):
to be in social spaces where youknow that you're likely to find acceptance,
and having been an editor in fashionand lifestyle for a long time, it's
a space that is strangely enough tothe outside world not terribly accepting, but
within it has been surprisingly accepting ofdifferent kinds of people who come from different
(03:53):
kinds of spaces and have different sexualities. So I think that for me,
just the idea of coming out wasstaggered. I think the first thing that
happened was that it took me agesto just be able to come out to
myself. Over time, I've alsorealized that's the only coming out that matters,
because, as somebody who's also workedin journalism for a long time,
a lot of queer stories are centeredaround coming out. I myself have done
(04:15):
several pieces about coming out stories,and over time I've realized that that there
shouldn't be coming out stories, thatcoming out is a very personal and deeply
private process that isn't for everyone,and for some people you're never going to
want to talk about it on apublic forum like a podcast, and that's
absolutely okay. And for a lotof people, you're going to use that
(04:40):
public forum to be able to makeother people more comfortable about talking about it.
And I think the fact that there'sspace for both those things is,
or that there should be space forboth those things, is what's incredibly important,
because for me, I had theluxury of knowing that I could come
out to family, to a partner, to friends and be met with a
(05:01):
degree of acceptance. You know,of course, there's always that initial hm
and then because like you said,you're disrupting a certain perspective that people have
of you. But the fact thatI had the luxury to know that I
would walk into a certain degree ofacceptance is one that a lot of people
don't. So I think that forme, one of the key things about
coming out is or the question orthe conversation around coming out, is that
(05:25):
people understand that it's just as okayto not it's just as okay to say
that a lot of people I know, for example, will only come out
in spaces where they feel incredibly comfortable. It has nothing to do with friends
and family, So they will findlike minded people and come out to those
people because they know that there isacceptance here. And I think that the
only thing that truly matters is feelingsafe enough to be able to do it,
(05:45):
if at all. Yeah, Imean in an ideal world, I
wish that it was so safe andso much of a non issue that you
didn't even have, Like heterosexuals don'tcome out as heterosexual, right, Yeah,
but we assume that to be thedefault that in order to be read
way you want to be read,or to be able to express affection the
way you want to coming out justas a practical you know, as an
aspect of like leading the life youwant to lead. I wish we didn't
(06:09):
even have to do that, right, where sexuality was understood its expansive instead
of rigidly just one way. Yeah. I think around bisexuality particularly, there
are certain prevalent stereotypes and misconceptions,right, and sometimes it can feel like
you're neither straight enough nor queer enough. There's a lot that's been written about
by erasure and biphobia. Like,say, for example, a lot of
(06:32):
people have asked me that what happenswhen you choose a man when you're dating
a man and you're monogamous, say, for example, you're not by anymore.
So it's really interesting because there's alot of conversation around if you do
choose a partner of the opposite sex, then you're technically head to normative in
your relationship. That's something that's alwaysbeen ticky in terms of navigating both queer
(06:55):
and straight spaces because you don't stopbeing by because you have a partner particular
sex gender. I mean, youcould be single, right and I think,
yeah, you don't have to proveyour sexuality to anyone, even though
it can feel like that's the onlyway to validate your claims about your sexuality,
right, Yeah, which is unfortunate. I wish that again, that
we didn't that there was no pressure, yeah, you know, to come
(07:17):
out or not to come out,to have relationships with x ys, that
people to show that you can formor not. I wish not of it
mattered, but we're still still gettingthere. Do you think that there was
a difference in how men and womenreacted to or tend to react in general
to bisexual women, Like, yeah, absolutely, and it's exactly what you
(07:39):
think exactly. I think for me, what was really interesting was that I
had a certain perceived fear of howweirdly, I had a perceived fear of
how women would react. Because forme, I've always had a very women's
centric life in terms of just andthis is not not even from a sexuality
or only from a sexuality point ofview. My strong was what network has
(08:00):
always been women. So for me, the big fair was not telling the
men in my life, friends orcolleagues or whatever that I was bisexual,
because I expected a certain reaction andit came often enough. But it was
about women, and I didn't knowhow certain women would react, like friends
who had, say, for example, gotten ready with me and stripped in
(08:20):
front of me and been naked withme, and it had been completely non
sexual. But I wondered now thatwould that be tainted? Would they be
thinking about things from the perspective orshould I not have done that because she's
by And that bothered me deeply.The idea of that bothered me deeply.
And luckily I encountered a lot lessof that than I thought I would,
because with my closest friends there wasthat sense of okay, you know.
(08:41):
There were a couple of friends whowondered if I'd been attracted to them.
There were a couple of friends whowondered whether they were my physical type.
These questions propped up, and Ithink that for me it didn't really respond
very badly to it because I feltlike it was just curiosity and it was
okay. And I feel like ifwe get angry and offended by curiosity,
(09:01):
people will be afraid to ask questions, are afraid to challenge, and sort
of have conversations with themselves. Sonone of that really offended me. But
with men, yes, I dothink that there is a degree of fetishization
that happens. I believe pornography.Phornography is great, it is made from
a respectful lens, which it oftenisn't. But I think that what tends
to happen is that because of thatfetishization by women are not taken quite as
(09:26):
seriously by a lot of men,especially men that will date them or men
that will be in relationships with them, because women don't go out and that
becomes a scary place to be becauseit invalidates your sexuality in a way.
So I think that for me,I dealt with a lot more of that
from men than I did from women, but with women, I felt like
(09:48):
there was a lot more quick kindnessand understanding and acceptance. Women always deliver
no passion. And what about theexperience of dating women, I wonder.
I feel like I'm myself very bycurious. I'm still some ways to go,
I suppose, but I sometimes thinkabout how like, oh, my
goodness, I'm going to have tolearn a bit from you know, it'll
(10:11):
be like dating for the first timeall over again, because you're so familiar
with what to do in a heterosexualsituation. In the courtship sort of like
landscape, whereas it can be kindof new right to figure out how to
even though it's so familiar as youand your body and everything as well as
a woman. But like courting awoman is intimidating to me because it's just
new, you know, even Ikind of want to do it. Was
(10:31):
there like a learning car. Ohfor me, You're going to be very
disappointed to learn that I haven't actuallyever dated a woman. I've been with
women, but I've never dated awoman because I'm terrified. I'm terrified of
with men. Somehow, the ideaof rejection is not nearly scary. I
don't know why. Perhaps it's becausewomen's opinions matter so much more, But
I think that the idea of makinga woman uncomfortable with an advance really frightens
(10:54):
me. So for me, ifI've ever been with a woman, it's
happened because the woman has made theadvance. I've known that there is okay,
this is I'm interested in this personand they're interested in me, so
everything works out. But there aremany a time I've been interested in someone
from Afar and not done anything aboutit because I've just been terrified at the
idea of going up to someone thatis straight or will be made uncomfortable by
(11:16):
the idea and broaching the subject.And I think that what tends to happen
is that people tend to assume thatit's probably a lot easier for women because
we're already incredibly physical with each other. Women are warm and comfortable and kind.
I think of the restroom syndrome alot right, Like when you walk
into a women's room at a baror restaurant, women will just be incredibly
(11:37):
comfortable with each other. They willfix each other's hair, and they will
lend each other make up, andthey will tell each other how incredible they
look and while as a person,as a woman, I think that that's
fantastic in terms of what it doesfor our ability to be intimate and to
emmote with each other as a bymoment. It's tricky because you have absolutely
no idea what the boundaries are.So I think for me, I are
(11:58):
on the side of caution. I'mvery careful and that's resulted in me practically
dating a woman because I'm so terrifiedof the idea of making someone uncomfortable.
I guess it's also just a process, right, Yeah, I feel like
dating men seemed terrifying when I waslike sixteen thirty three. It seems,
you know, like I know whatI'm doing, so maybe I don't know.
I mean, I imagine it'll getmore familiar. Yeah, yeah,
(12:22):
one day to old ladies and we'lltalk about all the wonderful women. We'll
do it, I know. Okay. I want to talk to you about
your book. Yes, it's calledOne Night Only. You guys should get
it, and I'd love for youto just give a little summary of the
of you know, your vision behindit and what it's about for people who
haven't yet read it. So funnily, enough. I think one of the
(12:46):
interesting things about One Night Only inthe context of our conversation about bisexuality was
when we were talking about the ideaof coming out what I wrote One Night
Only. I was thirty. Iwrote it in the Pandemic, and I
didn't quite realize that I had startedwriting my protagonist as bisexual without even thinking
(13:07):
about it. And it was thefirst time that I realized that I did
want to have a conversation about itthat was outside of my safe space and
my people. And it was thefirst time that I realized that not only
did I want to have a conversationabout it, I wanted a conversation about
it that was incredibly real without justI mean, it would always be sort
(13:33):
of like colored by the lens ofmy privilege. And I've been quite open
about that. I've talked about thefact that this is not the experience of
the Indian bisexual woman who is froma village in rojasthan it isn't, but
that's also not my story to tell. I'm a firm believer in the idea
of people being able to tell theirown stories and being able to hand over
(13:54):
the mic to people so that theycan do that in a real authentic way.
But the thing is that at thispoint in time, even the story
of an Indian bisexual woman who camefrom a certain degree privilege hadn't been told.
There was really no conversation around bisexualityat all. Bisexuality had often been
reduced to a trope. It wasalways a side character. It was always
(14:16):
a very specific trope that kept tothe stereotypes around it and didn't really push
back or deviate because it worked.It worked as a character, especially from
a male gaze perspective. And Ithink that the reason that I wrote that
character as bisexual without even thinking aboutit was because clearly there were things that
I wanted to address, and Ifelt like perhaps I was already addressing them
(14:39):
in conversations I was having in myspaces, but I wanted to start those
conversations outside of my spaces. SoI think that's what happened with One Night
only in terms of writing a bisexualprotagonist. It wasn't by design, it
happened and I realized that I wantedto keep her bisexual because she had something
to say, and I think forme, the rest of the book kind
(15:03):
of built around that and the othercharacters that I built are definitely much more
likable. I like them a lotbetter. Why do you dislike her?
Sorry to intervene, I dislike Ithink I dislike her, and most people
who read it will dislike her themost because the other three are just much
more likable people. They seem muchmore sorted in terms of their perspectives on
things. They're less judgmental, they'reless caught up in themselves and their ideas
(15:26):
of the world. And I thinkthe reason I wrote Rubani, who is
my protagonist, as a little bitunlikable, is because I believe that we
tend to see ourselves much more inunlikable characters, and that makes us uncomfortable,
and I wanted that. I wantedpeople to be able to identify with
the problems and the flaws that Rabanihad. I wanted also to be a
(15:48):
little braver with the way I wrotethis character, because I feel like most
people tend to write queer characters froma with the safety on a gun,
essentially like they're very careful because theydon't want to be perceived as bigoted.
They don't want to be perceived asproblematic, so they will either I mean,
back in the day, you wrotequeer characters just terribly because you could,
and now you write qu characters verycarefully, very guardedly, because you're
(16:12):
afraid of something being misinterpreted. Youwant to come off on the right side
of things, so you're not bravein terms of writing flawed quer characters,
queer characters that are problematic and arejudgmental. There is so much judgment within
the queer space, within different spectrumsof queerness, and that's really not talked
about it mainstream media at all becausemost people even writing content about queer people
(16:36):
as straight and they're too afraid totake that leap. So I think when
I was writing this particular character,I made her unlikable because there are lots
of unlikable bisexual people, there arelots of unlikable queer people. There are
lots of unlikable people and that stillmay have something incredibly interesting to offer,
but they're not going to be instantlylovable just because they're queer. So I
wanted to write her as a realperson, a person who was but also
(17:00):
a person. And I think whatI enjoyed the most through the book was
that a lot of her own ideasof herself, of relationships of sex,
which is one of the big thingsthat the book talks about. Her perspective
on just having sex and always doingit within the construct of a relationship and
never giving herself the agency to lookoutside of that and even figure out whether
(17:22):
she wants to have casual sex ornot, whether she likes the idea of
it or not, whether she's hadconversations with herself about her body, what
she likes, what she wants.I think that one of the things that
I really just wanted to do withthis character was was have those conversations in
a way that makes you a littleuncomfortable at first, but at the same
time you're kind of just learning alittle bit with this character as the book
(17:45):
goes on, and she doesn't comeout of it a changed woman and now
she's had an epiphany, but she'sjust come away thinking about things and having
conversations and starting conversations. And that'sreally the main thing that I wanted the
book to do, which is thatI wanted people to read it and start
thinking about the things and questioning thethings that they hadn't questioned about themselves in
a lot of time. I lovethat. I also like that you pointed
(18:07):
out that the burden of perfection shouldnot be placed on marginalized groups, you
know, I mean even I thinkthere's this unfortunate pressure that we put on
ourselves also to constantly overcompen sy.There's so few seats at the table and
so little representation that like, ifyou're a woman, you dare not say
anything stupid or problematic, or you'renot allowed to be flawed because you have
(18:29):
to be the perfect ambassadors and thisgroup, right, And I think that
happens with the ways in which wewrite or see represented. Rather we are
characters, female characters and things likethat, And I think it is so
important. We're all human, right, Why didn't you deny humanity to people
of whom you expect perfection one hundredpercent of the time. Yeah, so
(18:52):
thanks for pointing that out. Iwas really intrigued by that. And I
think likability also is overrated, Likewhy must we all be likable? You
know, why must the marginalized belikable to have on this spot exactly?
And this is in general, Imean, I'm sorry I digress, but
like this is in general a problemthat I've had with the writing of women
in fiction and the writing of womenin pop culture and media for the longest
(19:15):
time, which is that for avery long time, unless the story was
specifically about a female character or awoman character rather, she was not fleshed
out. She was again a tropeof some kind and fit into that trope
to supplement the story of a man. And over time, because Hollywood has
had to be apologetic about that,and in general pop culture and media,
(19:37):
even Indian cinema has had to bemore apologetic about that women, there's been
a turn and now women are beingwritten as these superhuman we can do it
all, we can have it allcreatures. And it's awful because you're still
not writing women as people. You'renot writing women as people who are strong,
(19:59):
but not in as people who arecapable of making mistakes and learning from
them or not learning from them,capable of being great people in some respects
and terrible people in some respects,and capable of being judgmental and still kind.
So I think, exactly, Yeah, it bothers me that it's still
at the end of the day,or I feel like a lot of popular
media is trying to overcompensate for theshallow way in which women were written for
(20:22):
ages by now writing women as thesesuperhuman creatures, and it's equally problematic because
it's just still not creating a spacewhere women I mean, like, for
example, most recently the Barbie moviemade that point terribly, but I think
that, you know, I mean, despite the very obvious narrative, I
(20:45):
think that it had an interesting pointin its heart, which is that women
need to see themselves on screen.Women need to read themselves in books,
and the way that they're going todo that is to, like, at
least for me, when I readfemale character, look for imperfections because it
makes me comfortable to read imperfections ina character. I have never responded to
(21:07):
characters who are either inherently good orinherently bad, sometimes even more inherently bad.
You might respond more to somebody that'sinherently bad because you want to see
the darker sides of yourself reflected inthings. You want to see mistakes being
made. You want because it givesyou comfort, the same way that Madonna
was a queer icon because she wasbald and brave and more bullet brass by
(21:30):
Gautier and change the narrative. Youwant to see characters that can help change
the narrative for you, because themore you normalize that, and the more
you normalize real flawed women in popculture and media, the more comfortable you're
going to be about feeling or beingflawed and feeling imperfect. I love that,
Thank you so much. I wantto also ask a little bit about
(21:52):
the joys are quenas I think thatso often, since we're talking about media
representation, the focus is on thestruggle, how it is, how hard
it is to come out awful,advice you got bullied, you know,
like we always we see these victimnarratives in most pop cultural representations, and
there's also so much joy, rightyes, yeah, Instead of me going
on and on, you tell meabout the experience of both of writing the
(22:14):
character but also personally, because itfelt like the pandemic was a time of
reflection from what we've talked of beforewriting this book was also personally very fulfilling
for you and clarifying for you.Right, yeah, No, absolutely,
And I think that that's I'm actuallyreally happy that you asked that question because
it's something that I hope comes upso that I can accel good about it.
I think that you're right because atthe end of the day. I
(22:37):
feel like what tends to happen withqueer stories is it feels like if you
don't talk about the struggle, it'snot validated enough. And I think that
the queer community in general is quitetired of it. And I think in
general people are quite tired of hearingthat narrative. And it's not like that
narrative needs to die, but itneeds to become part of the discourse rather
than the entire discourse itself. AndI think that what doesn't necessarily happen enough
(23:02):
is queer joy and also just queernormalcy, you know, like going into
the mundanity of being queer, whichin some ways is so similar to the
mondanity you're being straight, Going intosmaller experiences, going into the self doubt
that you have that is not necessarilyeven about being queer. What also tends
to happen is that when you seea lot of queer characters on screen or
(23:25):
you read about them in literature,that queerness is their entire identity. And
for me, that was something thatI was very conscious to avoid, which
is that in my head, beingbisexual is part of who I am,
it's not who I am at all, And it's never been who I am,
and it had nothing to do withthe fact that save ten years ago,
I hadn't come out to myself becausebeing straight is not somebody's entire identity
(23:45):
either, so why should being queerbe your entire identity. So I think
that one thing that I do seehappening a little bit more now is just
queer romance, quaer joy, questioningof queer identity that is largest and that
isn't limited to just whittling a persondown to their sexuality, and I'm glad
(24:07):
that it started to happen. Isee it in like there's a graphic novel
called heart Stopper, which became aNetflix series, and I think that that
was so interesting to me because itlooked at queerness from the lens of young
love. There's a character that isby and there's a character that's gay,
and they're both just such sweet kids, and you're seeing these kids also just
being kids in England, dealing withthe various other factions of their life,
(24:30):
and the queerness is at the heartof the story, but it's not the
story on its own. It's notthese characters on their own. And I
think that to me again, itloops back to the same principle of writing
women as people, it's about writingqueer people as people, as people who
are just as capable of Like,I want to see queer joy, but
(24:51):
I want to see very much,But I also really want to see queer
normalcy. I want to see queercouples being able to get married but also
be able to get divorced, becausethat's what being normal truly is, when
you're afforded all the luxuries of thestraight person. I'd love to see more
of that in writing in just everydaylife. That would be lovely, butoquere
people to be afforded the same senseof normalcy as the state person. Yeah,
(25:15):
I love that. I hope that, like, you know, more
radically. One step further, Ifeel like all straightness should be queered,
you know, like why get marriedat all? Why does anyone get married?
Part of me wishes that we couldlike abolish the institution as opposed to
having to fight for the right,you know. Yeah, but that's very
idealistic. Well, we should allhave the right before, at the very
(25:36):
least right. It would be niceif we didn't, if marriage wasn't even
the platform, but which the theomeativerights were being bequeathed or you know,
various other like the heteronormative bar isso low. Actually we have to fight
for those to just have that.Whereas I wish we could like radically shift
the way we look at things altogether, but perhaps that's very idealistic. But
(25:57):
as we rap O, I wonderwhether there's any sort of insights or learnings
you hold very precious that perhaps otherviewers who are on similar stages of their
own journey as I am, aswell to some extent, just sort of
figuring it out when you're questioning yoursexuality and maybe you think that what you've
thus far held as who you aremight in fact not be all of what
(26:22):
there is to know. And it'sa process of discovery, right, Yeah,
Do you have any insights or evenadvice you want to leave people with
in terms of just how you thinkingabout sexuality and who you are sexually?
I think what you said at thebeginning of the podcast is really interesting,
which is that you're currently in dialoguewith yourself about you know, what your
straightness even means, and that you'vealways been by curious and you're still thinking
(26:44):
about and you're considering it, andI think that to me, that that's
really it, which is that youknow, at the end of the day,
the only thing that really matters isthat you have open dialogue with yourself
because I think this even like,for example, I'm bisexual and this is
what I know about myself at thisparticular point in time. And I think
that as long as we acknowledge thatthat this is what you know about yourself
at this point in time, Ihave been straight thus far. You may
(27:07):
be straight for the rest of yourlife. That's absolutely fine. You might
find that you're not. But ifyou have a perceived notion of who you
are and you're terrified at the ideaof how things will disassemble, if you
question that or push against that,then you're very unlikely to discover. Like
I mean, you're somebody who talksabout the orgasm in such great detail and
(27:30):
how there are so many layers toit and how you know finding it and
finding it in different versions and wayscan bring you so much joy. And
the idea is simply, at theend of the day, it all comes
from freeing yourself up. It comesfrom freeing yourself up of the pressure of
things having to work a certain wayor function a certain way, and I
think that to me, it perhapstwo very different things, but it loops
(27:52):
back to the same thing, whichis that when you have an idea of
how something ought to work or whatsomething ought to be, and then you
will function with affirmation bias. Youwill find reasons to allow yourself to continue
believing what you've always believed. Andthe minute you tell yourself that you don't
know and that you'll figure it out, then the chances that you will figure
(28:15):
out the things that make you happy. And this is yes, it's of
course it's about sexuality. It isjust, but it's also just about who
you are as a person in relationships. Like one thing that I know we
haven't talked about today, but onething that I feel very strongly about also
is relationship constructs. Like we werejust talking about marriage, and to me,
marriage is something that is so deeprooted in monogamy. And again,
(28:37):
monogamy is something just like straightness andheteronomativity, that we're conditioned with, and
very few of us will question theidea of monogamy. Very few of us
will go, oh, there's somethingoutside of the structure that could work for
me. I can find companionship inmultiple forms or not. I can find
different measures of companionships that function together. I can have phases in my life
(28:57):
where a certain structure works from pointday to point B, and then I
feel like a certain structure will workbetter for me. Lator. I can
be open now and changed to monogamy. Lator, I can be monogamous now
and change to being open or polyamorouslater. So I think that one thing
that I feel is at the rootof all of it is asking yourself how
much of who you are is determinedby what you've been taught and what you've
(29:21):
been asked or rather perhaps even insome cases push to believe, and how
much of it is what you're choosing, because you might find that after a
lot of questioning, you're still choosingto be straight, You're still choosing to
be monogamous for now. But aslong as you have that conversation and you
have that dialogue with yourself, Ithink that that's honestly like the healthiest thing
just and I hope that conversation happenswith yourself and with people around you,
(29:45):
because sometimes what other people need tohave the conversation with themselves is to have
that conversation with you, how doyou think the experience of bisexuality or navigating
by sexuality differs within straight spaces versusqueer spaces. I think the thing that's
at the center of both is thatthere is a degree of other ring that
makes it very tricky to feel likeyou really belong in either space. And
(30:07):
I think that one thing that tendsto happen is that you tend to,
perhaps at least in the conversations thatI've had and sometimes in my own experience
as well. I'm not proud ofit, but what you tend to do
is you tend to play up acertain aspect when you're around a certain space
because you feel that desire to belongmore so, I will perhaps talk about
(30:30):
it, talk about being by significantlyless in a group of straight people if
I don't feel comfortable, if Ifeel like it is a space that isn't
necessarily going to be as accepting oras kind as I would hope. There
is that ability to do straight passand to simply not really bring it up
or not make it part of theconversation. But the other side of that
(30:52):
is feeling like you need to leaninto your sexuality a lot more when you're
in quaer spaces, because otherwise youwon't necessary be taken seriously isn't the right
word, but be quite as acceptedor treated as somebody that belongs in that
space. And so in that desireto feel queer enough, you tend to
perhaps play up your quarerness because youfeel the need to find a space that
(31:17):
belongs and you know in your headthat it's never fully going to be a
hedonomeative space. So it's interesting anddouble edged because you find that you need
to pull it different strings to beable to fit into different spaces, and
yet you never fully kind of fitinto either. What are the similarities and
the difference is in what intimacy canfeel like with men versus women. Ooh,
(31:45):
that's a really interesting question. Ithink that what's really interesting is the
similarities. I think is that intimacythen is just intimacy, because you know,
if you're truly comfortable and close tosomeone then in that moment, and
they don't really they're a whine nota label. But I think the differences
(32:05):
are interesting because at least for me, I felt that, you know,
I mean, just women are justso much soft in their approach and I
feel like it's a lot of I'mnot trying to trivialize it or play into
the stereotype, but and it's notto say that every single woman is going
to fit this PROD spectrum definition orevery single man is going to fit that
PROD spectrum definition. But I thinkthat women have a sense of how they
(32:30):
want to be touched, and thatthen translates into how they touch you.
There's also more thoughtfulness because I thinkthat women in general can be more careful
creatures. We're careful with our bodies, We're careful with the way we sort
of behave and the way we function, and I feel like that translates a
lot into I think the word I'mlooking for is deliberate, Like women are
(32:52):
more deliberate in terms of there isa thoughtfulness. And I'm not trying to
say that it can't be wild andintense and incredibly physical. Absolutely can,
but it's not. It will neverbe reckless, it will never be disrespectful,
I suppose, And I think thatthat's a very very comforting and interesting
(33:14):
place to be when you have thatsense of there is a much higher likelihood
that a woman is likely to bemore deliberate in the way they you're together
than a man will be, butnot always, not always to say what
is live? I like that.I like that. I think that as
someone who's by curious myself, Ioften sort of tried with intrepidation around disclosing
(33:37):
that to people, because there's alsosomething to be as many conveniences I stand
to lose also, right, aswe mentioned, destabilizing to the sort of
status quo, especially if you're ina relationship with a man you know and
his family and your family. Itis hard to tell families most families or
(33:58):
come out as queer to your family, absolutely, especially if you've been the
good straight girl as far so,how did you sort of navigate that?
What I'm curious about the process ofgoing from straight to by curious to bisexual
and conveying that out loud. Whatwas the journey like for you? I
think the journey still ongoing. What'sinteresting is that even though I had the
dialogue with myself six or seven yearsago, I told my partner almost immediately,
(34:22):
but I told friends a little bitlater. A lot of people found
out when I did a piece aboutbeing bisexual, when closer to when my
book was commissioned, and then ofcourse when my book came out, it
was everywhere. But there were someconversations I chose to have in person,
and like I remember very distinctly tellingmy mother, and my mother was very
(34:43):
kind about it, and she wasvery open about it, and in general,
she's always raised me to be veryopen about these conversations, so I
wasn't a surprise that that was herreaction. So it was important for me
to tell her. But there weresome family members that I didn't feel like
it was that important to have theconversation with because I wasn't sure that it
would be my with the same kindnessand acceptance. And there was some conversations
that was just scared of, likemy nanny, you know, And I
(35:05):
was like, I don't know howto have this conversation with my nanny.
So she found out that my booklaunch, you dedicate your book to her.
I dedicated my book and her andmy daddy, who passed when I
was much younger. But I thinkthat for me, it was something that
I didn't really know how to sitdown and address with her, and I
just chose to let it unfold atthe book launch, and and that was
(35:28):
that it was just and then wenever really talked about it, and I
was like, that's okay too.You know, it's fine if it's not
something you have questions about or youwant to go into. I think that
telling families and navigating it with familiescan be very, very tricky, which
is why that needs to become somethingwhere you have to ask yourself, do
I even want to do this inthe first place, Like, I mean,
this is not my story in particular, but there's a non binary friend
(35:51):
of mine and they basically chose neverto tell their family because they were like,
they're not going to understand. Thereis really no point. I know
exactly what they're like and they willnot get it, and I do not
want the stress and the toll itwill take on my mental health of having
to navigate with it with them constantly. So to the world, they will
be who they are, They're verycomfortable who they are, but to their
(36:14):
family it's he So it's something that'sso deeply personal, and I think that
nobody else has the right to commenton it. And I think that if
you, for example, are inthat process of discovery and you're not ready
to disclose that process of discovery toanyone, that's absolutely fine. I think
the only tricky thing that happens iswhen you put the burden of that process
(36:35):
of discovery on people who are weI once had an incident where I was
with someone who was a straight girland the next morning basically said, you
know, this is so much funand I've always thought about having a threesome
and blah blah blah, but youknow, I mean, you should just
know that I'm straight. And Iwas like, that's fine. But one
thing that became very clear to mewas that I had had my own journey
(36:58):
with sexuality and I did not wantto be somebody else's guinea pig. And
I was okay about this, ButI know a lot of other people who
haven't been who've had their hearts brokenby straight people who were just dabbling in
something. But I think that theprocess of discovery should also bear in mind
the feelings of the queer people thatyou might be meeting and that you might
be with in the process of yourdiscovery. So I think that as long
(37:22):
as it's an ongoing dialogue with yourselfwhere you have the ability to be respectful
of other people's feelings and your own. It's a great thing to do,
like be by curious, but aslong as you want come back to being
straight later if you find that allit was was curiosity and you find that
you're happier in who you've always been, or you might find that you're not
happier at who you've always been,and basically just giving yourself that leeway to
(37:45):
figure it out as time goes onand then keep reassessing. I think one
thing that also happens is that alot of people think that they've found their
label and now they can't deviate fromthat label. That's not true. You
might find that you might find thatsomething is part of who you are right
now, and you might find thatsomething is no longer about. You may
have been straight all your life andnot really questioned it, and then you
(38:07):
might find over the years that's changing. Maybe it's always been there, maybe
it hasn't. You have no idea, but you will know until you find
out. Indeed, thanks so much, Samya, it's been such a pleasure
talking to you. Thanks so soso much for joining us on Love Matters,
and thank you for tuning in.I hope that you enjoyed this episode
Love Matters is produced by Indian Expressand DW, Germany's international broadcaster. If
(38:29):
you have a question or insight you'dlike to share, please write to us
at Lovematters at DW dot com.We'd love it if you shared this,
Please rate it wherever you're listening orwatching. Till next time. This is
me Lisamangeldas and I believe Love Matters
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