January 19, 2024 • 36 mins
What’s it like dating as a gay man? And how does it compare to loving men as a cis-hetero woman? In this episode of Love Matters, host Leeza Mangaldas is comparing notes on “loving men” with writer, translator and co-founder of Pink List India, Anish Gawande. From meeting potential partners to power structures within relationships and their personal red flags when dating men. What are the differences and commonalities in relationships with current and previous lovers? And what can mainstream society learn from queer perspectives? Tune in to hear about these topics and many more.
Leeza Mangaldas’ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leezamangaldas/
Anish Gawande’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/anishgawande/?hl=en
Credits:
Produced by: Patricia Szilagyi (DW), Charulata Biswas (IE)
Research & guest acquisition: Sana Rizvi (DW)
Project Manager: Sonja Kaun-Trenkler (DW)
Editorial Support: Shashank Bhargava (IE), Khyati Rajvanshi (IE)
Executive Producer: Melanie von Marschalck (DW Life & Style), Anant Nath Sharma (IE)
Sound Editor: Suresh Pawar (IE)
Love Matters with Leeza Mangaldas is a cooperation between The Indian Express and DW, Germany’s international broadcaster.
Learn more about DW:
https://www.facebook.com/dwasia
https://www.dw.com/
Leeza Mangaldas’ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leezamangaldas/
Anish Gawande’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/anishgawande/?hl=en
Credits:
Produced by: Patricia Szilagyi (DW), Charulata Biswas (IE)
Research & guest acquisition: Sana Rizvi (DW)
Project Manager: Sonja Kaun-Trenkler (DW)
Editorial Support: Shashank Bhargava (IE), Khyati Rajvanshi (IE)
Executive Producer: Melanie von Marschalck (DW Life & Style), Anant Nath Sharma (IE)
Sound Editor: Suresh Pawar (IE)
Love Matters with Leeza Mangaldas is a cooperation between The Indian Express and DW, Germany’s international broadcaster.
Learn more about DW:
https://www.facebook.com/dwasia
https://www.dw.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
I'm Lisa Mangeldas, and this islove Matters. What's it like to be
sexually and romantically involved with men?Me? And that's by heterosexual woman and
my guests, an out and proudgay man, are going to be comparing
notes today on what it's like tolove men. Anishkawande is a man of
many talents. He's a writer,a translator, the director of the Darashiku
(00:28):
Fellowship, an interdisciplinary arts residency,the founder of pink List India, which
is India's first archive of politicians orsupportive of LGBTQ plus rights. He's a
Rhodes Scholar. He studied intellectual historyand public policy at Oxford with certified public
intellectual exactly one of the most eligibleeligible young men I know. So anis,
(00:51):
thanks so much for joining us.Thank you so much for having me,
Lisa. So excited to finally meetyou in person. I know and
I have this conversation that is goingto be comparing me that we should have
been doing a long time ago,Internet friends for too long. It's so
nice to finally meet well. Tome, one of the first things that
strikes me that might have been abit different when it comes to loving men,
is that as a straight woman,it was assumed that that is who
(01:12):
I'm going to love, whereas perhapsfor you had to kind of tread tenderly
around even asserting that you love menat first, right, And I read
in an interview where you said thatbecause you have a political ambitions, you
had to think about the cast thatthat absolutely might bear right coming out.
So what was that like for youbefore we dive in? Just because I'm
(01:34):
such a fan of your work aswell, thank you very much, like
you're taking up old interviews. Butyou know, I think it's true that
when you're queer, you know thatyou're queer long before you come out.
So I think I knew I wasgay from when I was in the fifth
Standard, And I think what wasreally difficult was knowing that you're gay and
knowing that it doesn't augur well forany ambitions that you have in other aspects
(01:59):
of your life. I was alwaysvery keen to work in politics or be
a diplomat, or work in theies, and to me, it was
just impossible that the two could coexist. So for the longest time, I
was very aware that I was gay, but I was also so convinced that
it would like completely hamper any aspirationsthat I had. That I stayed in
the closet voluntarily, and this reacheda point of almost comic magnitudes when I
(02:23):
moved to New York City and Iwas in college in New York City and
arguably the most queer friendly place onthis planet, and I was still in
the closet and it took a while. There's a long story behind that.
But when I did come out forthe longest time, I said that I
have to choose one over the other. So when I came out, I
said, well, I'm not comingback to India. I'm going to stay
on in New York City. UntilI got a phone call right before I
(02:46):
graduated from Millendeira, who volunteered withwho, said come run my campaign And
I said, but I'm in NewYork City and I'm gay, and he
said so, so I said okay, and that was it. So you
know, I think those are considerationsthat are hard, but it's that initial
hoop of knowing what is important toyou that makes the difference. And after
(03:07):
that it's not smooth sailing, butit does get better, and you are
being the change, as it were. I love you, in your queer
up, Lisa, you know,honestly, you're seeing this outfit for what
it is, but below it ismy Nataja costume because this is what I
wear day in, day out,and the jacket gets added on and I
have to make fancy, fabulous peoplelike you to do these wonderful podcasts,
(03:29):
so you queer your workplace little bylittle. I see the socks. I
yeah, because there's a story.Right. So when I came back to
India after four years in the US, I was thrown straight into the wilderness
to work with the Maharasha Congress andthe Jena Sangarshatra and I had to go
to itchl Kanji, to Pathirdy,to parts of the state that I'd never
been to before. And my biggestconcern was I didn't have a wardrobe.
(03:52):
I said, what do I wear? And so I was like, you
know, I can't wear the starchedwhite ka those pants and like rubber flip
flops and like. So I waslike okay, and no, I need
to do something. So there wasthis little gurta which is slightly translucent.
Here there are colorful socks that werebrown ox burds in a briefcase and it
became quite fun and initially eyebrowser raise. But I think my biggest picture was
(04:13):
when a politician on the campaign tailedwould been a bit nasty in the beginning
towards the end, was like,can you give me a tailor's number?
And I was like, you knowwhat, you know what here you I
love it. You have fun.It's not easy. Thank you for sharing
that. Okay, let's get intothe juicy stuff, since we are here
to compare notes on what it's liketo love men. You know, as
(04:34):
a heterosexual woman, there's a lotof contradiction to the fact that you love
men. You love this group thathas historically and systemically oppressed you. You
know, there's so much misogyny builtinto heterosexuality that I think for a lot
of women there's like a dissonance,like I love this person, and yet
what he represents is everything that stoodin my way, and that still makes
(04:55):
me feel small, and it stillconditions how I'm expected to behave right is
coded into heterosexuality. Misogyny is codedinto heterosexuality, and I wonder whether to
some extent heterosexuality is the default alsocodes roles within queer relationships, just because
it's so pervasive, you know,like there's this idea that even women see
(05:16):
themselves through the male gaze. Yeah, do you think that queer people to
some extent are still having to kindof model gender roles the way heterosexual couples
do, Whether it's like a moredominant person and a more submissive person,
and you know, someone who's morein charge of let's say, finances versus
the home, or they tend tobe very rigid amongst men and women.
(05:36):
You know, it's really interesting thatyou asked that because one queer theory borrows
a lot from black feminist theory onthis matter, in particularly because this is
the question black women in America faceafter emancipation. How can you willingly love
somebody who's oppressed you? And there'sa lot of phenomenal literature on the issue,
which I think then leads into queertheory about what do you do in
(05:59):
the sort of dynamics where you arein a relationship that is queer, but
you are in an environment that isso pervasively heteronometic. Right, So do
you then start seeing yourself as yousaid, in those lenses? For one,
I think you are very aware ofthe fact that you are also dating
your oppress as a queer person,especially as a gay man, right because
(06:23):
you have been bullied by men before, You've been through that sort of toxic
masculinity that forces you into the closet, and you're now sort of opening after
the idea of dating men who comewith all of that baggage. Sometimes I
tell someone that, you know,I fully resonate when women say I hate
all men, because I said,yes, all men are trash. And
(06:46):
then someone's like, but you're aman. I said, yes, I
hate myself that you established a longtime ago. But you know, in
a more fun way, I thinkit's true. You have to learn how
to navigate those settings differently. Whatis the advantage with queerness, though,
is that you get have fun whiledoing it, so you get to like
break these stereotypes because you know theexists in the first place, or you
(07:06):
know there are friends of mine wholean into them. They say, you
know what, I actually like this. I want somebody to be like the
person taking care of the house andtaking care of like who is going to
decide what is getting cooked tonight?And I want to be the one doing
the more practical aspects and the bestpart is you can confuse people because that
might not correlate ad all to whatyou do in bed with each other,
(07:26):
and so you get to have thatsort of like dynamic. It's nice when
there's a deliberateness and choice right towho gets to play one role as opposed
to it being enforced, which isso often the case unfortunately in heterosexual relationships,
where there's prescribed roles and you mustfollow those roles. So the question
of disrupting them is it doesn't evenarise. You know, you're the good
(07:47):
wife who stays at home and he'sthe good husband who goes to work.
And it's like, so if youdisrupt that model, there's something deviant.
I really think we should queer heterosexualityas well. Absolutely, and I do
you know it goes beyond the couple, right, so you know it's so
funny. I've just redone my bathroom, which has been a three month long
(08:07):
project, which has truly been Ifanyone asked me what have you been doing
in DELI, I'm like, I'vebeen redoing my bathroom. I was in
Oaklay yesterday buying stone and oaklass likefar. But now that has all been
redone. It's got a lot ofshells and spaces that need to be filled
with stuff. I have no ideahow to organize anything. And so I
have a former lover who's now becomea very dear friend who's coming to town
(08:28):
on Monday, and I was like, listen, how good are you organizing
things? It's like you're pretty good. I was like, okay, Like
Monday, you're like spending three hoursorganizing this closet. I love it.
So how do you also queer sortof the idea of love, of the
idea of relationships to a way whereyou're like, you know, we're going
to create families of choice. We'regoing to create chosen families that do the
(08:48):
work because you're not competent at doingthat work. It is wonderful if we
can create structures of support and relyon people we've loved, right. I
think another really unfortunate aspect of howheterosexual couples tend to view love is one
at a time, and then youhave to like and then this is the
worst person ever, Like, don'ttalk to your egg. You know,
if someone if it doesn't work out, that person must be set aside and
(09:11):
forgotten and or even worse, exactedrevenge upon or you know, have this
division of the friend group, thisidea of like fidelity, monogamy, possessiveness,
And then I think, you know, being really bad with the dealing
with rejection or heartbreak as opposed tothinking of the opportunity you have here where
you loved each other. That's aspecial role to play in someone's life,
(09:31):
and why not treasure this person evenif they don't fit into your life as
a lover anymore. I love thatyou mentioned an XT, But do you
think perhaps gay men have figured thatout a bit better than straight men?
No? No, I think mostgay men have figured it out. I
think the rest of the quick communitythat's far better than the game men,
who sort of I think are thelast bashians or primary bashions of heteronomativity,
(09:52):
seem to be getting married. I'mlike, who is there to marry?
First? Find them married? Andwho am I going to marry even if
I could marry? So I thinkthere's a way in which you adopt these
roles almost unknowingly right. I thinkI've had the privilege of having friends,
of having mentors, of having professorswho have helped me sort of unpack these
things, and they haven't happened altogether, right. It's not like I came
(10:13):
out and suddenly I've broken for youfrom the shackles of heteronomativity or even toxic
masculinity. I think it's a processof unlearning that continues, which is why
for me, I think I'm abig believer in something called radical complicity.
I think for me, it's beenreally useful to acknowledge that the ways I
think, the ways I act arealready deeply flawed, and to acknowledge them
as such and work on them,and not to say that that radical complicity
(10:37):
is a way of saying that Itake no responsibility for my actions, or
for my prejudices or for my biases, but to acknowledge that I come with
them and they're not an indicator ofmy own value of my work, and
that they are a product of howI've been shaped, and now I have
to go beyond them. And ifI have multiple chances of doing that when
someone's pointed it out, then that'sa problem. But until then, knowing
(10:58):
that this is a journe that Istill have nots of sort of heteronomative associations
about like what a relationship should looklike, et cetera, et cetera,
and so do many others. Butsometimes having that conversation is the first step
to being like, this doesn't reallymake sense. And once you reach that
point, I think it's easy togo beyond and invent and imagine and what
(11:18):
do you imagine? What I imagine? So I told this to somebody.
I was like, given that Itravel so much right now, I said,
you must go back to traditional seafarernotions. And I want to madden
every port. So I want tobe like I want to mad every pot.
And it's just like sort of likelike this little wave like moves around
(11:39):
and is a lover everywhere, andall the lover is equal because I only
spend so much time with each ofthem. Then nobody's asking you, like
why haven't you returned my calls?Because my gime is out at sea,
I can't respond to phone calls.So my thing is like, how does
one create a relationship where I'm perfectlyokay with not talking to you for three
months? And would you be okayI'm fully okay because I've forgotten you for
three months if I'm doing something moreimportant, what if you're not doing something
(12:01):
important? In that there I'll bewith you know what, if they're busy,
then that's a problem. That's whya man in every port because then
when you're there only for three days, everyone makes time for you, which
is why I also love I livein Telly now and I'm from Bombay,
and I love going back to Bombaynow because I feel so important. Yeah,
because I'm there for three days andeveryone's like, we must feed,
we must meet, and they'll clearout their schedules for me, and I
(12:22):
love that. What about living together? You know, this is this is
my most controversial heart take. Ihave always been tamed that I can never
live with the party because my kitchenand my living room are secret spaces.
So it's not that I want differentbedrooms. In fact, I would much
rather be sleep in the same bedroombut kick them out in the morning,
but but open out into different partsof the house. You know. You
(12:45):
know, people have shared bathrooms betweentwo bedrooms and much rather have a shared
bedroom with a separate living room andkitchen on one side and separate living room
in kitchen on the outside. Soa model of kinship with living together does
not have to be how families arestructured. We're sleeping together does not have
to mean living together, want tosleep with you, both in a literal
sense and physical yarn. But Ido not want like to be coexisting all
(13:09):
day in the sex. I wantto then go to my living room couch
and watch it and you can comethere. So we need very big houses
basically, know, it's the samesize houses. People are three bedroom houses.
I'm seeing one bedroom house, buttwo living rooms and two kitchens.
That's all. So let's talk aboutwhere we meet people. I think that
the gay bar has this sort oflike iconic place in the cultural construction of
(13:33):
I feel like how gay relationships formand stuff and portunally for women, there's
a lot of trepidation around like meetinga new man, because your safety is
something you're so overwhelmingly conscious of.So it's something that I wish was more
joyful, but it's often something that'slayered with fear. Is that something that
you experienced as well? Or wouldyou say that sites are particularly you know,
(13:54):
locations that do mark themselves out asqueer spaces some of that fear,
you know. I think in manyways the gay bar is a site of
sort of radical possibility, right becausein most spaces it exists as an oasis
of calm amid's all of the chaosaround you. So one of my favorite
(14:16):
TV shows in the world is QueerAspoke, the American version, because everyone
is pretty there, but this isclub called Babylon, and everyone's there and
it's like sitty, it's like hot, and it's like amazing. And everyone
then goes back to their normal liveswhere queerness is being discriminated against, where
the ads crisis on the horizon,where your workplace can't know that you're gay.
(14:41):
And I think the gay bar acquiresthat sort of mythic resonance because it
becomes almost this sanctuary. I don'tknow if it holds that same connotation in
many parts of the world today.I think Delhi I really enjoy because there
is a gay bar here deeper fortyeight that's quite lovely. New York I
don't think so anymore. I thinkthe gay bar sort of in a story
everywhere as a gay bar, right, and then you sort of wonder what
(15:03):
does that mean? And it's particularlyhard because you know what that means for
you back in India, and socoming out to me in New York was
harder than coming out in India becausein many ways everyone had already come out
in New York, so I didn'thave anyone to look up to and be
like, oh, like, let'scompare notes and be like, what have
you struggle with? Particularly because Iwas at a private university in New York
(15:24):
City. You know, those aresort of demographics that are different, Whereas
in India had so many amazing mentors, particularly older men gay men, who
sort of were like, you know, this is how you come out to
your parents. You know, thisis how you like navigate friendships. And
so the gay bar as a spacefor meeting people acquires that mythic resonance where
things are really difficult in other spaces. With the advent of apps, I
(15:46):
think the gay bar has become amore sanitized space. It's a space where
you go to socialize, but notnecessarily as the only place that you go
to meet people. When it comesto its own problems. Ah, So
I think the gay bar is ofwonderful, but it's also a place of
immense platphobia. It's a space sometimesand very often in a theemphobia. It's
(16:07):
a space where there are cliques basedon cast, on class, based on
religion. And so I think youhave different problems, but certainly a feeling
of more safety than you would ata straight bar, particularly as a SIS
woman. And do you think thatthat apps also take with them some of
these sort of social prejudices or biases. So this is what right I think
(16:29):
the challenge is, and this iswhy I make the distinction between being gay
or lesbian, are bisexual, ortrance and being queer. Right, I
think queerness comes with in ethical andideological commitment to argue against all forms of
oppressure. Being gay doesn't, andyou're not expected to be queer. I
think it's a journey that I wouldmost certainly prefer everyone goes on and like
(16:51):
towards a destination that we would alllike to achieve, which is a more
equal and just world. But whenyou're gay, or you're lesbiana, are
bisexual, or your transition, you'recoming with all the prejudices that come with
other parts of your identity. You'recoming with prejudice along the caste, class,
religion, race, ethnicity, andyou bring those to these spaces as
well. And it's a process ofunlearning that involves sometimes being quite direct about
(17:15):
certain forms of behavior not being allowed. For example, apps need to do
better at not allowing racist messaging inyour bio, for example, and that
should be policed, but desires sucha difficult thing to police. Otherwise,
what are you going to do whensomeone doesn't respond to your message on an
app? It's not very evident,but you know that it's because you're black
(17:36):
in the US or because you comefrom a different cast background in there.
Yeah, I mean even mentioned bodypositive body a certain I suppose predisposition for
a very usually thin bodied, eurocentriclooking sort of ideal. Unfortunately, seems
to also be something that on theapps becomes So you're looking at pictures,
you know, what are you swipingon? Is it really just preference?
(18:00):
Are there factors at play that conditionwho you are tought to see as desirable?
I think women feel a lot ofpressure to look a certain way,
right, or at least within heterosexualdynamics, that tends to be the idea
that the woman must put in theeffort to look a certain way because a
woman, that's part of what givesher value, right, a woman must
be beautiful and a man must berich. These are like the Unseid codes
(18:23):
of desirability and how it's constructed inheterosexual dynamics, and I wonder whether some
of that is also present, likewe take on both. Yeah, you
have it, so you have tobe both. And that's a big problem,
right. I think body positivity isvery difficult within the gay community because
(18:44):
so much of the content that youconsume is so sort of that gobic,
right, and there is an imageof the ideal like male body that is
pervasive, and people have these preferencesthat reflect upon the apps but also in
other engage and listen. This isthis is a self reflexive process. I
have to think about this wild swiping, right, These are not prejudices that
(19:06):
are not inherent in me. It'snot it's very difficult to point fingers.
And this is very complicity. It'sradical complicity because you know, I know
myself making these decisions when I'm swipingon Tinder, and then I have to
sit back and be like, okay, like what does this mean? And
many times that's involved me saying thatyou know, actually, maybe that means
not going on the apps, becauseI see myself doing that a lot more
on the apps than if I metsomebody in person, because I'm so tuned,
(19:30):
like because I'm making a decision inthirty seconds, right, not even
a few seconds. Yeah, Idon't have actually used an app. No,
I've never used app. I've onlymet the people I've been with in
real life, but all that youhave been with on apps. But you
know, this is also where it'snot that all apps are bad. I
remember when I was on Grinder inIndia when I just come back for the
(19:51):
first time after coming out, andI was like, oh my god,
like if I put my picture onthere, it's gonna be on the front
page of the Times of India Mcgallumaniac from that type of love it.
I was like, oh my god, what is going to happen? Et
cetera. But I went on theapps and on the free version you could
reach the end of the city.It's like ten years not even ten years
ago. And it was really sweetbecause it almost became like a community space
(20:11):
where the first boy I ever datedI met through Grinder and we went on
a day where we sat on marinedrive and like looked at the moon,
you know, which is impossible tothink of now. I think that's now
too many. Right now, there'sa very set rule for the app,
and you're probably meaning for a hookup. But other worlds are possible, that
these apps can be generitive spaces,but we have to reimagine them, and
(20:33):
I think it's hard work. It'snot easy your condition to use it a
certain way. You're also busy,you want certain things in life. But
yeah, I meeting in person.I wish there were more spaces for that.
Yeah, I mean, I guessI came of age at a pre
app time. I'm thirty three.I guess is that young or very funny?
Yeah? Is it? But Idon't know ten years younger, twenty
(20:55):
seven? Sorry? Thank you?Yes, you about me to be so
Yeah, I feel like back whenI would also been in a long relationship
in all sorts of places. Nowyou have to share. I've shared so
much you can't give. I aman interviewer. You were interviewing. What
is it called comparing notes? Ihave met. I met a lawyer at
(21:19):
a police station. Anyway, thisis really not about my life. You
don't half the people I know ourrelationships currently met them at protests. Yes,
that's like you never thought of itthat way. But it's a lawyer
police station. I met my currentpath I was. I have been a
TV presenter before starting all of myonline content. And so one of the
(21:41):
people I met with someone I metI was interviewing, I mean, I
mean interesting people. Is that I'msad podcast and in express please note give
lots of records. It was notI've got lots of guests. This is
how I find my next partner.You're making me look bad for you,
but I'm saying I want to doit with you. Do your public,
(22:02):
intellectual public into these I love howyou've turned love matters into coffee with Karen.
I'm here anyway, you only saidthat we as. The reason that
I am here is because Lisa haspromised this will help me find somebody,
because I am very single. Sothis is in pursuit of that, because
otherwise all these series especially, it'shard to believe that you are not a
(22:23):
man with many many suggests that youknow, I find it very hard to
believe just what to do such aslife. Okay, well, you know,
speaking off though, I feel likeas a woman, unfortunately, one
of the struggles I've had is thatI've always had to downplay how much I
(22:45):
enjoy my sexuality because bad girls likesex, bad girls court men, bad
girls have multiple partners. You knowwhat I mean, to just be at
ease in your sexuality in your body, do want to have fun, to
see it as fun. It's almostsort of a transgression around the cod of
what it means to be a goodwoman. And I think so many people
do not have the luxury to publiclytransgress those codes, even if they wanted
(23:07):
to, because the stakes are justtoo high. You know. It means
losing your emotional, financial, andvarious other forms of structure, stability,
support in your life. For manywomen, right to even just admit to
liking sex, or to have sexoutside of marriage, or to wear something,
you know, wear a bikini ornot even just wear whatever you like
because you want to and that's whatmakes you feel good, you know,
(23:30):
with at so many levels such aprocess of downplaying, a masking, disguising
anything to do with your sexuality asa woman, you know. And I
wonder whether hopefully, I mean,I'm sure it's difficult being a gay person
in homophobic country or world. Yeah, world, there's many, many struggles.
But do you think that within theecosystem of fellow gay men at least
(23:55):
is there a greater acceptance and toleranceand just normalcy around like being you know,
let's say, challenging the idea ofmonogamy or the idea of like virtue
in some sort of single partnership equation. I just think more expressive and free
with sexuality. Is that a stereotychthat doesn't I would have hoped so,
But I think again, right,Like I think it depends that gay men
(24:18):
will have a very different if youhad to take a survey of gay men,
you would get a very different answerif you had to take a survey
of like queer women or transmen ortrans women, because these are sort of
communities that are subcultures of their ownthat come with the same amount of baggage.
Right. So again, like Imentioned, queers Folk is a very
common show that a lot of peoplemy age watch growing up or slightly older
(24:41):
than me as well, which meansthere's a generation of gay men for whom
sort of sexual liberation is integral totheir gay identity. So, you know,
this idea of like settling down withonly one person and being in a
monogamous, committed relationship with no otherpartners is alien to them. But that's
not the case for a lot ofother gay men who come with a very
different of cultural background to queerness orto their gayness or to their gay identity.
(25:03):
So I think it really depends uponwhat you were socialized on, and
I think that's also what makes itso much harder, because these are all
roles that you are inventing for yourselfand norms that you're creating for yourself,
which means that it's very hard tofind somebody who's norms are the same as
yours, and very hard to thenalso be on the same wavelength. The
good part is that you got tohave conversations around those issues. But on
(25:26):
the policing of desire, I thinkwe're witnessing a fairly sort of concerning re
emergence of this policing of desire,right. I think the past few years
have been ones where we've been ableto get comfortable with the idea of,
say like a living relationship, orwith the idea of sex before marriage,
or with the idea of having aboyfriend or a girlfriend. And it's in
(25:47):
our mainstream discourse, it's been inBollywood, it's been in the popular media,
and you're seeing, and I veryvery much so, a sort of
return to a form of conservatism thatis far more dangerous that knows the other
side and still chooses to enforce acertain moral code on others. And I
think you're seeing that across sexuality.I think you're seeing that as a geography,
(26:10):
across geography. It's not just India, right, this is sort of
I mean Internet culture is tad culture, you know, like proudly dad.
There's really concerning developments again, right, I can't police this. I can't
tell you that what you're doing iswrong, and I can't put you in
jail for it. I have toconvince you otherwise. And I think the
job of so many of us isto emphasize that having multiple sexual partners,
(26:33):
or having sex before marriage, ornot being monogamous isn't about having more fun.
It's about really shaking the foundations ofa system that actually hurts you.
Right, It's about like realizing,for yourself more than for anybody else,
that it doesn't fit what you wantwith your life. And I think that's
where you get to a point whereyou say that you're very welcome to be
(26:56):
monogamous, like do not mind monogamy, also welcome to not be monogamous.
And that's a choice for people tomake, and that's not something that should
be foisted upon them, but itis one that they should make knowingly,
which is similar to the conversation wejust had around gender roles being flipped in
heterosexual relationships. It's not that thesegender roles are bad or the roles themselves
(27:17):
are bad. Somebody has to dothe dishes and somebody has to cook,
and ideally it's not going to bethe same person, but it doesn't need
to be assumed who's cooking and who'sdoing the dishes. Once you have that
conversation, you can decide, evenas a woman, to like cook,
and your partner can decide to dothe dishes. But you've made that choice
consciously and without pressure, and we'reseeing a reversal of that, which I'm
concerned about. Me too, Metoo. I want to ask you also
(27:41):
about what you consider red flags andgreen flags when looking for bad or even
within a relationship. There are nored flags. You work straight into all
of them. So I think Ilove this line and it's on my Hinge
profile as well, that it's theone thing that I look out for is
in a person is if you're kindeven when no one is watching, right,
(28:03):
I think it's it's those small instances. But you don't need to be
nice. Are you're nice to peoplewho have less power than who you have
nothing to give? Exactly? Andwhen nobody else is watching you be nice
to them. It's not like,you know, like you're volunteering at some
send you and like taking photos withall of these kids who come from an
underprivileged background, like no, Butit's when you're doing the small things that
(28:25):
you wouldn't necessarily have had to dootherwise, that are instinctive. And if
your gut instinct is to be nice, that's the biggest green flag. I
think red flags there are too many, Like, however, do we have
another podcast? Me is going tobe red flags? Top she red flags
if they spend time on the firststage criticizing the way you look, if
(28:48):
someone's like pointing out why are youwearing that big red flag like runaway?
Second? Red flags is hard anyhint of a tendency for violence. It's
a big red I've ran. That'sso important though, you know, because
I think and this I see withfriends who've been in relationships where violence has
been a concern, and domestic abusein particular, we all think that it
(29:11):
can't happen to us. But it'sinsidious, and that it's sort of like
weaves its way in and once you'rethere, even if you're the most woke
person or you know everything about theworld, you've read it all very how
to get out. So that's avery good reflect hints of violence, I
think. Also a lack of accountability, like they don't do what they say
they'll do, you know, orjust stand you up. If I'm stood
(29:33):
up, I'm not meeting that personagain, the senner. That's I have
the worst ADHD, which means Ihave no organizational skills, So I preface
everything. I'm like, I willbe late. Please you say that now.
I have text like fifteen minutes beforeleaving. Also, no, yeah,
if you then say yes you're comingand you don't come, I'm not
going to meet you. So tellyou what. I'll tell you this funny
story. So this is actually thefirst boy I ever kissed. It's actually
(29:56):
a phenomenal story to tell. Oh, tell me, tell me. So
I was at college at Columbia.We both went and I had gone to
the therapist on campus and very likeconfidently told her, I need your help
to stay in the closet. BecauseI was like, I have to work
in politics and this is getting hard. So you are the therapists, the
mental health media. Mental health willbe fixed by staying in the closet.
(30:18):
So you helped me do that,and she just looked at me and smiled
and said sure, of course.Over the next three months she helped me
come out of the closet. Butwe decided that I could only come out
somewhere because remember macgalo Mania Times ofIndia front page. I was terrified,
if I come out where anybody knowsme, everyone will know and then that's
game over. You said, oneweek, come out somewhere I know nobody,
and nobody knows me. And soI applied for this grant from the
(30:41):
European Institute for Cultural Power and InternationalRelations, which then allowed me to go
to Paris. And so I wasworking at the Indian Embassy in Paris and
at the Press, Information and CultureBureau, which I did barely any work.
And I should not say this.I love the Indian Embassy in Paris,
but I was working there. Therewas not much work at the Press,
Information and Culture Bureau. In August, which is when everyone in France
was on vacation, and I wasthere when I started using Grinder for the
(31:04):
first time, and I met thislovely boy who said, why don't you
come on over and we'll go outto Queen, which is this iconic queer
nightclub that used to be on theshows that DZA that shut down, like
many queer clubs across the world haveshut down. And I said, yes,
of course that would be lovely.Anish gets onto the metro fully half
an hour late. Did you tellhim? No? I had forgotten to
(31:26):
tell him that I was going tolie. I was like going to message
here and my phone night And soI am now forty five minutes late.
As I get out of this metrostation that I'm supposed to get out at,
I have no charger, and soI'm like, how do I tell
this man? I feel so terribleabout like not informing him my phone is
(31:47):
there, So what do I do? So I find this charging point next
to bus stop when I'm like chargingmy phone right outside the metro station,
and this boy has been cycling aroundand round this metro station for the past
half hour because he's concerned that Ihaven't responded when I was supposed to be
there. So you found each otherand we found each other and it was
(32:07):
the sweetest thing. He was likethe China looking for me, and I
was like, you know, youare such a darling. And then we
went to his house and then wewent to Queen and then we made art
and then I kissed the bar andI liked it. And then there was
no way back because that was thatwas coming out. Was like no,
no, no, no, no, going back to the closet after that,
and we're still friends. I meethim every year when I go to
(32:29):
Paris, and I make it apoint to go as often as I can,
just because I think it's a lovethat's lasted and we're not romantically involved
with each other at all, butit's just such a special bond that's continued
that is so so beautiful, Andyou know, it made me think of
many things. Perhaps to some degree, there is an inequality in the way
that men and women see each other, and it goes both ways, where
(32:50):
there's this idea of like I mustbe. You know, I think for
women, the steaks that are madeto seem like they're very high. If
it doesn't work out, okay,because you gave this golden apple of your
honor and sexuality his man and hedumped you, you know what I mean?
These ideas of like somehow they're beingan exchange, a transaction where the
woman gives and the man takes,is coded into the way that heterosexual relationships
(33:15):
are configured. So even something smallas the man being late to the date
makes it feel a bit like inthe very primitive condition of conditioning, like
I gave a little and it wasnot appreciated, or it was squandered,
or it was do you know whatI mean? It becomes personal in a
way that actually shouldn't if you seeyourselves as equals. For example, I
(33:35):
think if a girlfriend was late,I wouldn't feel so bad. I wouldn't
take it personally in this way.It wouldn't seem like a lack of accountability
in the way that it does whenaman does that. You know, so
to some extent, like what wasso beautiful about your story where he was
waiting you wanted to charge your phone, Like you both really did want to
see each other. Nobody was madhappy when you met and then had your
(33:57):
first kiss and are still in touch, right, It seems to be this
equality in the way that you seeeach other, men see women as like
a conduit for sex, but notalways as an equal human being. Is
the like very basic gender theory ideaaround inequality between the sexes. And I
want to push you on that andsay that what happened with me was only
possible because I was again in aspace where I knew nobody and nobody knew
(34:20):
me. I did not have thebackground or the cues that I needed to
determine whether I could be late forthis or not. He didn't have the
cues needed to know what this randomman from India I was doing, like
some random internship with the embassy inFrance is coming from, you know,
like there was this sort of innocencein not knowing that gets disrupted because it
would happen even in India, wherefor example, if I was meeting somebody
(34:42):
significantly wealthier in Delhi, I wouldnot be late, right, or them
being late, I would feel quiteaffronted by it because they thought that my
time could be taken for granted becausethey're wealthier than I am. Or flip
that around, right, Or ifyou came from a very different cast background,
or if you came from a sortof different social strata or from a
sort of difference, you know.I think these are sort of dynamics that
(35:05):
becomes so much harder when you knowthe sort of background of the person who's
having which is why man in everyparty a new place, you know,
and that's running away from the problem. And I acknowledge that, I think,
but in these times running aways issometimes the only sort of solution in
the short term, but in thelong term, I think these are challenges
that need to be addressed, andI think the only way of doing that
(35:28):
is being very upfront of that communicationand saying that this is unacceptable. Yeah.
I wonder if we can all striveto bring some of the energy of
young love in Paris, young andanonymous love in Paris into all our relationships
where you kind of do everything youcan to minimize power differentials. If there
is a power differential, at leastthe impact of that on the way both
(35:51):
parties interact and love kindness, lovewith exactly, love with kindness and equality.
Yeah, yeah, I think that'sa wonderful not to wrap up on
an exit, Well, I couldsit here and talk for five hours,
probably probably not over time already,but this was so much fun. This
was very very lovely. Thank youso much for having me and what a
fun chat. Thanks so much,Annie, it's been so much fun chatting
(36:15):
and thank you for tuning into LoveMatters, produced by the Indian Express and
DW, Germany's international broadcaster. Ihope that you enjoyed this episode. Please
share it with your friends and family. Please feel free toly like, share,
subscribe it more, yes, exactlywhat he said, Leave a comment,
Tell your friends. Email us atLovematters at DW dot com. If
(36:37):
you feel like reading all the emails, please forward until next time. This
is me these I'm under us andI believe Love Matters
I'm Lisa Mangeldas, and this islove Matters. What's it like to be
sexually and romantically involved with men?Me? And that's by heterosexual woman and
my guests, an out and proudgay man, are going to be comparing
notes today on what it's like tolove men. Anishkawande is a man of
many talents. He's a writer,a translator, the director of the Darashiku
(00:28):
Fellowship, an interdisciplinary arts residency,the founder of pink List India, which
is India's first archive of politicians orsupportive of LGBTQ plus rights. He's a
Rhodes Scholar. He studied intellectual historyand public policy at Oxford with certified public
intellectual exactly one of the most eligibleeligible young men I know. So anis,
(00:51):
thanks so much for joining us.Thank you so much for having me,
Lisa. So excited to finally meetyou in person. I know and
I have this conversation that is goingto be comparing me that we should have
been doing a long time ago,Internet friends for too long. It's so
nice to finally meet well. Tome, one of the first things that
strikes me that might have been abit different when it comes to loving men,
is that as a straight woman,it was assumed that that is who
(01:12):
I'm going to love, whereas perhapsfor you had to kind of tread tenderly
around even asserting that you love menat first, right, And I read
in an interview where you said thatbecause you have a political ambitions, you
had to think about the cast thatthat absolutely might bear right coming out.
So what was that like for youbefore we dive in? Just because I'm
(01:34):
such a fan of your work aswell, thank you very much, like
you're taking up old interviews. Butyou know, I think it's true that
when you're queer, you know thatyou're queer long before you come out.
So I think I knew I wasgay from when I was in the fifth
Standard, And I think what wasreally difficult was knowing that you're gay and
knowing that it doesn't augur well forany ambitions that you have in other aspects
(01:59):
of your life. I was alwaysvery keen to work in politics or be
a diplomat, or work in theies, and to me, it was
just impossible that the two could coexist. So for the longest time, I
was very aware that I was gay, but I was also so convinced that
it would like completely hamper any aspirationsthat I had. That I stayed in
the closet voluntarily, and this reacheda point of almost comic magnitudes when I
(02:23):
moved to New York City and Iwas in college in New York City and
arguably the most queer friendly place onthis planet, and I was still in
the closet and it took a while. There's a long story behind that.
But when I did come out forthe longest time, I said that I
have to choose one over the other. So when I came out, I
said, well, I'm not comingback to India. I'm going to stay
on in New York City. UntilI got a phone call right before I
(02:46):
graduated from Millendeira, who volunteered withwho, said come run my campaign And
I said, but I'm in NewYork City and I'm gay, and he
said so, so I said okay, and that was it. So you
know, I think those are considerationsthat are hard, but it's that initial
hoop of knowing what is important toyou that makes the difference. And after
(03:07):
that it's not smooth sailing, butit does get better, and you are
being the change, as it were. I love you, in your queer
up, Lisa, you know,honestly, you're seeing this outfit for what
it is, but below it ismy Nataja costume because this is what I
wear day in, day out,and the jacket gets added on and I
have to make fancy, fabulous peoplelike you to do these wonderful podcasts,
(03:29):
so you queer your workplace little bylittle. I see the socks. I
yeah, because there's a story.Right. So when I came back to
India after four years in the US, I was thrown straight into the wilderness
to work with the Maharasha Congress andthe Jena Sangarshatra and I had to go
to itchl Kanji, to Pathirdy,to parts of the state that I'd never
been to before. And my biggestconcern was I didn't have a wardrobe.
(03:52):
I said, what do I wear? And so I was like, you
know, I can't wear the starchedwhite ka those pants and like rubber flip
flops and like. So I waslike okay, and no, I need
to do something. So there wasthis little gurta which is slightly translucent.
Here there are colorful socks that werebrown ox burds in a briefcase and it
became quite fun and initially eyebrowser raise. But I think my biggest picture was
(04:13):
when a politician on the campaign tailedwould been a bit nasty in the beginning
towards the end, was like,can you give me a tailor's number?
And I was like, you knowwhat, you know what here you I
love it. You have fun.It's not easy. Thank you for sharing
that. Okay, let's get intothe juicy stuff, since we are here
to compare notes on what it's liketo love men. You know, as
(04:34):
a heterosexual woman, there's a lotof contradiction to the fact that you love
men. You love this group thathas historically and systemically oppressed you. You
know, there's so much misogyny builtinto heterosexuality that I think for a lot
of women there's like a dissonance,like I love this person, and yet
what he represents is everything that stoodin my way, and that still makes
(04:55):
me feel small, and it stillconditions how I'm expected to behave right is
coded into heterosexuality. Misogyny is codedinto heterosexuality, and I wonder whether to
some extent heterosexuality is the default alsocodes roles within queer relationships, just because
it's so pervasive, you know,like there's this idea that even women see
(05:16):
themselves through the male gaze. Yeah, do you think that queer people to
some extent are still having to kindof model gender roles the way heterosexual couples
do, Whether it's like a moredominant person and a more submissive person,
and you know, someone who's morein charge of let's say, finances versus
the home, or they tend tobe very rigid amongst men and women.
(05:36):
You know, it's really interesting thatyou asked that because one queer theory borrows
a lot from black feminist theory onthis matter, in particularly because this is
the question black women in America faceafter emancipation. How can you willingly love
somebody who's oppressed you? And there'sa lot of phenomenal literature on the issue,
which I think then leads into queertheory about what do you do in
(05:59):
the sort of dynamics where you arein a relationship that is queer, but
you are in an environment that isso pervasively heteronometic. Right, So do
you then start seeing yourself as yousaid, in those lenses? For one,
I think you are very aware ofthe fact that you are also dating
your oppress as a queer person,especially as a gay man, right because
(06:23):
you have been bullied by men before, You've been through that sort of toxic
masculinity that forces you into the closet, and you're now sort of opening after
the idea of dating men who comewith all of that baggage. Sometimes I
tell someone that, you know,I fully resonate when women say I hate
all men, because I said,yes, all men are trash. And
(06:46):
then someone's like, but you're aman. I said, yes, I
hate myself that you established a longtime ago. But you know, in
a more fun way, I thinkit's true. You have to learn how
to navigate those settings differently. Whatis the advantage with queerness, though,
is that you get have fun whiledoing it, so you get to like
break these stereotypes because you know theexists in the first place, or you
(07:06):
know there are friends of mine wholean into them. They say, you
know what, I actually like this. I want somebody to be like the
person taking care of the house andtaking care of like who is going to
decide what is getting cooked tonight?And I want to be the one doing
the more practical aspects and the bestpart is you can confuse people because that
might not correlate ad all to whatyou do in bed with each other,
(07:26):
and so you get to have thatsort of like dynamic. It's nice when
there's a deliberateness and choice right towho gets to play one role as opposed
to it being enforced, which isso often the case unfortunately in heterosexual relationships,
where there's prescribed roles and you mustfollow those roles. So the question
of disrupting them is it doesn't evenarise. You know, you're the good
(07:47):
wife who stays at home and he'sthe good husband who goes to work.
And it's like, so if youdisrupt that model, there's something deviant.
I really think we should queer heterosexualityas well. Absolutely, and I do
you know it goes beyond the couple, right, so you know it's so
funny. I've just redone my bathroom, which has been a three month long
(08:07):
project, which has truly been Ifanyone asked me what have you been doing
in DELI, I'm like, I'vebeen redoing my bathroom. I was in
Oaklay yesterday buying stone and oaklass likefar. But now that has all been
redone. It's got a lot ofshells and spaces that need to be filled
with stuff. I have no ideahow to organize anything. And so I
have a former lover who's now becomea very dear friend who's coming to town
(08:28):
on Monday, and I was like, listen, how good are you organizing
things? It's like you're pretty good. I was like, okay, Like
Monday, you're like spending three hoursorganizing this closet. I love it.
So how do you also queer sortof the idea of love, of the
idea of relationships to a way whereyou're like, you know, we're going
to create families of choice. We'regoing to create chosen families that do the
(08:48):
work because you're not competent at doingthat work. It is wonderful if we
can create structures of support and relyon people we've loved, right. I
think another really unfortunate aspect of howheterosexual couples tend to view love is one
at a time, and then youhave to like and then this is the
worst person ever, Like, don'ttalk to your egg. You know,
if someone if it doesn't work out, that person must be set aside and
(09:11):
forgotten and or even worse, exactedrevenge upon or you know, have this
division of the friend group, thisidea of like fidelity, monogamy, possessiveness,
And then I think, you know, being really bad with the dealing
with rejection or heartbreak as opposed tothinking of the opportunity you have here where
you loved each other. That's aspecial role to play in someone's life,
(09:31):
and why not treasure this person evenif they don't fit into your life as
a lover anymore. I love thatyou mentioned an XT, But do you
think perhaps gay men have figured thatout a bit better than straight men?
No? No, I think mostgay men have figured it out. I
think the rest of the quick communitythat's far better than the game men,
who sort of I think are thelast bashians or primary bashions of heteronomativity,
(09:52):
seem to be getting married. I'mlike, who is there to marry?
First? Find them married? Andwho am I going to marry even if
I could marry? So I thinkthere's a way in which you adopt these
roles almost unknowingly right. I thinkI've had the privilege of having friends,
of having mentors, of having professorswho have helped me sort of unpack these
things, and they haven't happened altogether, right. It's not like I came
(10:13):
out and suddenly I've broken for youfrom the shackles of heteronomativity or even toxic
masculinity. I think it's a processof unlearning that continues, which is why
for me, I think I'm abig believer in something called radical complicity.
I think for me, it's beenreally useful to acknowledge that the ways I
think, the ways I act arealready deeply flawed, and to acknowledge them
as such and work on them,and not to say that that radical complicity
(10:37):
is a way of saying that Itake no responsibility for my actions, or
for my prejudices or for my biases, but to acknowledge that I come with
them and they're not an indicator ofmy own value of my work, and
that they are a product of howI've been shaped, and now I have
to go beyond them. And ifI have multiple chances of doing that when
someone's pointed it out, then that'sa problem. But until then, knowing
(10:58):
that this is a journe that Istill have nots of sort of heteronomative associations
about like what a relationship should looklike, et cetera, et cetera,
and so do many others. Butsometimes having that conversation is the first step
to being like, this doesn't reallymake sense. And once you reach that
point, I think it's easy togo beyond and invent and imagine and what
(11:18):
do you imagine? What I imagine? So I told this to somebody.
I was like, given that Itravel so much right now, I said,
you must go back to traditional seafarernotions. And I want to madden
every port. So I want tobe like I want to mad every pot.
And it's just like sort of likelike this little wave like moves around
(11:39):
and is a lover everywhere, andall the lover is equal because I only
spend so much time with each ofthem. Then nobody's asking you, like
why haven't you returned my calls?Because my gime is out at sea,
I can't respond to phone calls.So my thing is like, how does
one create a relationship where I'm perfectlyokay with not talking to you for three
months? And would you be okayI'm fully okay because I've forgotten you for
three months if I'm doing something moreimportant, what if you're not doing something
(12:01):
important? In that there I'll bewith you know what, if they're busy,
then that's a problem. That's whya man in every port because then
when you're there only for three days, everyone makes time for you, which
is why I also love I livein Telly now and I'm from Bombay,
and I love going back to Bombaynow because I feel so important. Yeah,
because I'm there for three days andeveryone's like, we must feed,
we must meet, and they'll clearout their schedules for me, and I
(12:22):
love that. What about living together? You know, this is this is
my most controversial heart take. Ihave always been tamed that I can never
live with the party because my kitchenand my living room are secret spaces.
So it's not that I want differentbedrooms. In fact, I would much
rather be sleep in the same bedroombut kick them out in the morning,
but but open out into different partsof the house. You know. You
(12:45):
know, people have shared bathrooms betweentwo bedrooms and much rather have a shared
bedroom with a separate living room andkitchen on one side and separate living room
in kitchen on the outside. Soa model of kinship with living together does
not have to be how families arestructured. We're sleeping together does not have
to mean living together, want tosleep with you, both in a literal
sense and physical yarn. But Ido not want like to be coexisting all
(13:09):
day in the sex. I wantto then go to my living room couch
and watch it and you can comethere. So we need very big houses
basically, know, it's the samesize houses. People are three bedroom houses.
I'm seeing one bedroom house, buttwo living rooms and two kitchens.
That's all. So let's talk aboutwhere we meet people. I think that
the gay bar has this sort oflike iconic place in the cultural construction of
(13:33):
I feel like how gay relationships formand stuff and portunally for women, there's
a lot of trepidation around like meetinga new man, because your safety is
something you're so overwhelmingly conscious of.So it's something that I wish was more
joyful, but it's often something that'slayered with fear. Is that something that
you experienced as well? Or wouldyou say that sites are particularly you know,
(13:54):
locations that do mark themselves out asqueer spaces some of that fear,
you know. I think in manyways the gay bar is a site of
sort of radical possibility, right becausein most spaces it exists as an oasis
of calm amid's all of the chaosaround you. So one of my favorite
(14:16):
TV shows in the world is QueerAspoke, the American version, because everyone
is pretty there, but this isclub called Babylon, and everyone's there and
it's like sitty, it's like hot, and it's like amazing. And everyone
then goes back to their normal liveswhere queerness is being discriminated against, where
the ads crisis on the horizon,where your workplace can't know that you're gay.
(14:41):
And I think the gay bar acquiresthat sort of mythic resonance because it
becomes almost this sanctuary. I don'tknow if it holds that same connotation in
many parts of the world today.I think Delhi I really enjoy because there
is a gay bar here deeper fortyeight that's quite lovely. New York I
don't think so anymore. I thinkthe gay bar sort of in a story
everywhere as a gay bar, right, and then you sort of wonder what
(15:03):
does that mean? And it's particularlyhard because you know what that means for
you back in India, and socoming out to me in New York was
harder than coming out in India becausein many ways everyone had already come out
in New York, so I didn'thave anyone to look up to and be
like, oh, like, let'scompare notes and be like, what have
you struggle with? Particularly because Iwas at a private university in New York
(15:24):
City. You know, those aresort of demographics that are different, Whereas
in India had so many amazing mentors, particularly older men gay men, who
sort of were like, you know, this is how you come out to
your parents. You know, thisis how you like navigate friendships. And
so the gay bar as a spacefor meeting people acquires that mythic resonance where
things are really difficult in other spaces. With the advent of apps, I
(15:46):
think the gay bar has become amore sanitized space. It's a space where
you go to socialize, but notnecessarily as the only place that you go
to meet people. When it comesto its own problems. Ah, So
I think the gay bar is ofwonderful, but it's also a place of
immense platphobia. It's a space sometimesand very often in a theemphobia. It's
(16:07):
a space where there are cliques basedon cast, on class, based on
religion. And so I think youhave different problems, but certainly a feeling
of more safety than you would ata straight bar, particularly as a SIS
woman. And do you think thatthat apps also take with them some of
these sort of social prejudices or biases. So this is what right I think
(16:29):
the challenge is, and this iswhy I make the distinction between being gay
or lesbian, are bisexual, ortrance and being queer. Right, I
think queerness comes with in ethical andideological commitment to argue against all forms of
oppressure. Being gay doesn't, andyou're not expected to be queer. I
think it's a journey that I wouldmost certainly prefer everyone goes on and like
(16:51):
towards a destination that we would alllike to achieve, which is a more
equal and just world. But whenyou're gay, or you're lesbiana, are
bisexual, or your transition, you'recoming with all the prejudices that come with
other parts of your identity. You'recoming with prejudice along the caste, class,
religion, race, ethnicity, andyou bring those to these spaces as
well. And it's a process ofunlearning that involves sometimes being quite direct about
(17:15):
certain forms of behavior not being allowed. For example, apps need to do
better at not allowing racist messaging inyour bio, for example, and that
should be policed, but desires sucha difficult thing to police. Otherwise,
what are you going to do whensomeone doesn't respond to your message on an
app? It's not very evident,but you know that it's because you're black
(17:36):
in the US or because you comefrom a different cast background in there.
Yeah, I mean even mentioned bodypositive body a certain I suppose predisposition for
a very usually thin bodied, eurocentriclooking sort of ideal. Unfortunately, seems
to also be something that on theapps becomes So you're looking at pictures,
you know, what are you swipingon? Is it really just preference?
(18:00):
Are there factors at play that conditionwho you are tought to see as desirable?
I think women feel a lot ofpressure to look a certain way,
right, or at least within heterosexualdynamics, that tends to be the idea
that the woman must put in theeffort to look a certain way because a
woman, that's part of what givesher value, right, a woman must
be beautiful and a man must berich. These are like the Unseid codes
(18:23):
of desirability and how it's constructed inheterosexual dynamics, and I wonder whether some
of that is also present, likewe take on both. Yeah, you
have it, so you have tobe both. And that's a big problem,
right. I think body positivity isvery difficult within the gay community because
(18:44):
so much of the content that youconsume is so sort of that gobic,
right, and there is an imageof the ideal like male body that is
pervasive, and people have these preferencesthat reflect upon the apps but also in
other engage and listen. This isthis is a self reflexive process. I
have to think about this wild swiping, right, These are not prejudices that
(19:06):
are not inherent in me. It'snot it's very difficult to point fingers.
And this is very complicity. It'sradical complicity because you know, I know
myself making these decisions when I'm swipingon Tinder, and then I have to
sit back and be like, okay, like what does this mean? And
many times that's involved me saying thatyou know, actually, maybe that means
not going on the apps, becauseI see myself doing that a lot more
on the apps than if I metsomebody in person, because I'm so tuned,
(19:30):
like because I'm making a decision inthirty seconds, right, not even
a few seconds. Yeah, Idon't have actually used an app. No,
I've never used app. I've onlymet the people I've been with in
real life, but all that youhave been with on apps. But you
know, this is also where it'snot that all apps are bad. I
remember when I was on Grinder inIndia when I just come back for the
(19:51):
first time after coming out, andI was like, oh my god,
like if I put my picture onthere, it's gonna be on the front
page of the Times of India Mcgallumaniac from that type of love it.
I was like, oh my god, what is going to happen? Et
cetera. But I went on theapps and on the free version you could
reach the end of the city.It's like ten years not even ten years
ago. And it was really sweetbecause it almost became like a community space
(20:11):
where the first boy I ever datedI met through Grinder and we went on
a day where we sat on marinedrive and like looked at the moon,
you know, which is impossible tothink of now. I think that's now
too many. Right now, there'sa very set rule for the app,
and you're probably meaning for a hookup. But other worlds are possible, that
these apps can be generitive spaces,but we have to reimagine them, and
(20:33):
I think it's hard work. It'snot easy your condition to use it a
certain way. You're also busy,you want certain things in life. But
yeah, I meeting in person.I wish there were more spaces for that.
Yeah, I mean, I guessI came of age at a pre
app time. I'm thirty three.I guess is that young or very funny?
Yeah? Is it? But Idon't know ten years younger, twenty
(20:55):
seven? Sorry? Thank you?Yes, you about me to be so
Yeah, I feel like back whenI would also been in a long relationship
in all sorts of places. Nowyou have to share. I've shared so
much you can't give. I aman interviewer. You were interviewing. What
is it called comparing notes? Ihave met. I met a lawyer at
(21:19):
a police station. Anyway, thisis really not about my life. You
don't half the people I know ourrelationships currently met them at protests. Yes,
that's like you never thought of itthat way. But it's a lawyer
police station. I met my currentpath I was. I have been a
TV presenter before starting all of myonline content. And so one of the
(21:41):
people I met with someone I metI was interviewing, I mean, I
mean interesting people. Is that I'msad podcast and in express please note give
lots of records. It was notI've got lots of guests. This is
how I find my next partner.You're making me look bad for you,
but I'm saying I want to doit with you. Do your public,
(22:02):
intellectual public into these I love howyou've turned love matters into coffee with Karen.
I'm here anyway, you only saidthat we as. The reason that
I am here is because Lisa haspromised this will help me find somebody,
because I am very single. Sothis is in pursuit of that, because
otherwise all these series especially, it'shard to believe that you are not a
(22:23):
man with many many suggests that youknow, I find it very hard to
believe just what to do such aslife. Okay, well, you know,
speaking off though, I feel likeas a woman, unfortunately, one
of the struggles I've had is thatI've always had to downplay how much I
(22:45):
enjoy my sexuality because bad girls likesex, bad girls court men, bad
girls have multiple partners. You knowwhat I mean, to just be at
ease in your sexuality in your body, do want to have fun, to
see it as fun. It's almostsort of a transgression around the cod of
what it means to be a goodwoman. And I think so many people
do not have the luxury to publiclytransgress those codes, even if they wanted
(23:07):
to, because the stakes are justtoo high. You know. It means
losing your emotional, financial, andvarious other forms of structure, stability,
support in your life. For manywomen, right to even just admit to
liking sex, or to have sexoutside of marriage, or to wear something,
you know, wear a bikini ornot even just wear whatever you like
because you want to and that's whatmakes you feel good, you know,
(23:30):
with at so many levels such aprocess of downplaying, a masking, disguising
anything to do with your sexuality asa woman, you know. And I
wonder whether hopefully, I mean,I'm sure it's difficult being a gay person
in homophobic country or world. Yeah, world, there's many, many struggles.
But do you think that within theecosystem of fellow gay men at least
(23:55):
is there a greater acceptance and toleranceand just normalcy around like being you know,
let's say, challenging the idea ofmonogamy or the idea of like virtue
in some sort of single partnership equation. I just think more expressive and free
with sexuality. Is that a stereotychthat doesn't I would have hoped so,
But I think again, right,Like I think it depends that gay men
(24:18):
will have a very different if youhad to take a survey of gay men,
you would get a very different answerif you had to take a survey
of like queer women or transmen ortrans women, because these are sort of
communities that are subcultures of their ownthat come with the same amount of baggage.
Right. So again, like Imentioned, queers Folk is a very
common show that a lot of peoplemy age watch growing up or slightly older
(24:41):
than me as well, which meansthere's a generation of gay men for whom
sort of sexual liberation is integral totheir gay identity. So, you know,
this idea of like settling down withonly one person and being in a
monogamous, committed relationship with no otherpartners is alien to them. But that's
not the case for a lot ofother gay men who come with a very
different of cultural background to queerness orto their gayness or to their gay identity.
(25:03):
So I think it really depends uponwhat you were socialized on, and
I think that's also what makes itso much harder, because these are all
roles that you are inventing for yourselfand norms that you're creating for yourself,
which means that it's very hard tofind somebody who's norms are the same as
yours, and very hard to thenalso be on the same wavelength. The
good part is that you got tohave conversations around those issues. But on
(25:26):
the policing of desire, I thinkwe're witnessing a fairly sort of concerning re
emergence of this policing of desire,right. I think the past few years
have been ones where we've been ableto get comfortable with the idea of,
say like a living relationship, orwith the idea of sex before marriage,
or with the idea of having aboyfriend or a girlfriend. And it's in
(25:47):
our mainstream discourse, it's been inBollywood, it's been in the popular media,
and you're seeing, and I veryvery much so, a sort of
return to a form of conservatism thatis far more dangerous that knows the other
side and still chooses to enforce acertain moral code on others. And I
think you're seeing that across sexuality.I think you're seeing that as a geography,
(26:10):
across geography. It's not just India, right, this is sort of
I mean Internet culture is tad culture, you know, like proudly dad.
There's really concerning developments again, right, I can't police this. I can't
tell you that what you're doing iswrong, and I can't put you in
jail for it. I have toconvince you otherwise. And I think the
job of so many of us isto emphasize that having multiple sexual partners,
(26:33):
or having sex before marriage, ornot being monogamous isn't about having more fun.
It's about really shaking the foundations ofa system that actually hurts you.
Right, It's about like realizing,for yourself more than for anybody else,
that it doesn't fit what you wantwith your life. And I think that's
where you get to a point whereyou say that you're very welcome to be
(26:56):
monogamous, like do not mind monogamy, also welcome to not be monogamous.
And that's a choice for people tomake, and that's not something that should
be foisted upon them, but itis one that they should make knowingly,
which is similar to the conversation wejust had around gender roles being flipped in
heterosexual relationships. It's not that thesegender roles are bad or the roles themselves
(27:17):
are bad. Somebody has to dothe dishes and somebody has to cook,
and ideally it's not going to bethe same person, but it doesn't need
to be assumed who's cooking and who'sdoing the dishes. Once you have that
conversation, you can decide, evenas a woman, to like cook,
and your partner can decide to dothe dishes. But you've made that choice
consciously and without pressure, and we'reseeing a reversal of that, which I'm
concerned about. Me too, Metoo. I want to ask you also
(27:41):
about what you consider red flags andgreen flags when looking for bad or even
within a relationship. There are nored flags. You work straight into all
of them. So I think Ilove this line and it's on my Hinge
profile as well, that it's theone thing that I look out for is
in a person is if you're kindeven when no one is watching, right,
(28:03):
I think it's it's those small instances. But you don't need to be
nice. Are you're nice to peoplewho have less power than who you have
nothing to give? Exactly? Andwhen nobody else is watching you be nice
to them. It's not like,you know, like you're volunteering at some
send you and like taking photos withall of these kids who come from an
underprivileged background, like no, Butit's when you're doing the small things that
(28:25):
you wouldn't necessarily have had to dootherwise, that are instinctive. And if
your gut instinct is to be nice, that's the biggest green flag. I
think red flags there are too many, Like, however, do we have
another podcast? Me is going tobe red flags? Top she red flags
if they spend time on the firststage criticizing the way you look, if
(28:48):
someone's like pointing out why are youwearing that big red flag like runaway?
Second? Red flags is hard anyhint of a tendency for violence. It's
a big red I've ran. That'sso important though, you know, because
I think and this I see withfriends who've been in relationships where violence has
been a concern, and domestic abusein particular, we all think that it
(29:11):
can't happen to us. But it'sinsidious, and that it's sort of like
weaves its way in and once you'rethere, even if you're the most woke
person or you know everything about theworld, you've read it all very how
to get out. So that's avery good reflect hints of violence, I
think. Also a lack of accountability, like they don't do what they say
they'll do, you know, orjust stand you up. If I'm stood
(29:33):
up, I'm not meeting that personagain, the senner. That's I have
the worst ADHD, which means Ihave no organizational skills, So I preface
everything. I'm like, I willbe late. Please you say that now.
I have text like fifteen minutes beforeleaving. Also, no, yeah,
if you then say yes you're comingand you don't come, I'm not
going to meet you. So tellyou what. I'll tell you this funny
story. So this is actually thefirst boy I ever kissed. It's actually
(29:56):
a phenomenal story to tell. Oh, tell me, tell me. So
I was at college at Columbia.We both went and I had gone to
the therapist on campus and very likeconfidently told her, I need your help
to stay in the closet. BecauseI was like, I have to work
in politics and this is getting hard. So you are the therapists, the
mental health media. Mental health willbe fixed by staying in the closet.
(30:18):
So you helped me do that,and she just looked at me and smiled
and said sure, of course.Over the next three months she helped me
come out of the closet. Butwe decided that I could only come out
somewhere because remember macgalo Mania Times ofIndia front page. I was terrified,
if I come out where anybody knowsme, everyone will know and then that's
game over. You said, oneweek, come out somewhere I know nobody,
and nobody knows me. And soI applied for this grant from the
(30:41):
European Institute for Cultural Power and InternationalRelations, which then allowed me to go
to Paris. And so I wasworking at the Indian Embassy in Paris and
at the Press, Information and CultureBureau, which I did barely any work.
And I should not say this.I love the Indian Embassy in Paris,
but I was working there. Therewas not much work at the Press,
Information and Culture Bureau. In August, which is when everyone in France
was on vacation, and I wasthere when I started using Grinder for the
(31:04):
first time, and I met thislovely boy who said, why don't you
come on over and we'll go outto Queen, which is this iconic queer
nightclub that used to be on theshows that DZA that shut down, like
many queer clubs across the world haveshut down. And I said, yes,
of course that would be lovely.Anish gets onto the metro fully half
an hour late. Did you tellhim? No? I had forgotten to
(31:26):
tell him that I was going tolie. I was like going to message
here and my phone night And soI am now forty five minutes late.
As I get out of this metrostation that I'm supposed to get out at,
I have no charger, and soI'm like, how do I tell
this man? I feel so terribleabout like not informing him my phone is
(31:47):
there, So what do I do? So I find this charging point next
to bus stop when I'm like chargingmy phone right outside the metro station,
and this boy has been cycling aroundand round this metro station for the past
half hour because he's concerned that Ihaven't responded when I was supposed to be
there. So you found each otherand we found each other and it was
(32:07):
the sweetest thing. He was likethe China looking for me, and I
was like, you know, youare such a darling. And then we
went to his house and then wewent to Queen and then we made art
and then I kissed the bar andI liked it. And then there was
no way back because that was thatwas coming out. Was like no,
no, no, no, no, going back to the closet after that,
and we're still friends. I meethim every year when I go to
(32:29):
Paris, and I make it apoint to go as often as I can,
just because I think it's a lovethat's lasted and we're not romantically involved
with each other at all, butit's just such a special bond that's continued
that is so so beautiful, Andyou know, it made me think of
many things. Perhaps to some degree, there is an inequality in the way
that men and women see each other, and it goes both ways, where
(32:50):
there's this idea of like I mustbe. You know, I think for
women, the steaks that are madeto seem like they're very high. If
it doesn't work out, okay,because you gave this golden apple of your
honor and sexuality his man and hedumped you, you know what I mean?
These ideas of like somehow they're beingan exchange, a transaction where the
woman gives and the man takes,is coded into the way that heterosexual relationships
(33:15):
are configured. So even something smallas the man being late to the date
makes it feel a bit like inthe very primitive condition of conditioning, like
I gave a little and it wasnot appreciated, or it was squandered,
or it was do you know whatI mean? It becomes personal in a
way that actually shouldn't if you seeyourselves as equals. For example, I
(33:35):
think if a girlfriend was late,I wouldn't feel so bad. I wouldn't
take it personally in this way.It wouldn't seem like a lack of accountability
in the way that it does whenaman does that. You know, so
to some extent, like what wasso beautiful about your story where he was
waiting you wanted to charge your phone, Like you both really did want to
see each other. Nobody was madhappy when you met and then had your
(33:57):
first kiss and are still in touch, right, It seems to be this
equality in the way that you seeeach other, men see women as like
a conduit for sex, but notalways as an equal human being. Is
the like very basic gender theory ideaaround inequality between the sexes. And I
want to push you on that andsay that what happened with me was only
possible because I was again in aspace where I knew nobody and nobody knew
(34:20):
me. I did not have thebackground or the cues that I needed to
determine whether I could be late forthis or not. He didn't have the
cues needed to know what this randomman from India I was doing, like
some random internship with the embassy inFrance is coming from, you know,
like there was this sort of innocencein not knowing that gets disrupted because it
would happen even in India, wherefor example, if I was meeting somebody
(34:42):
significantly wealthier in Delhi, I wouldnot be late, right, or them
being late, I would feel quiteaffronted by it because they thought that my
time could be taken for granted becausethey're wealthier than I am. Or flip
that around, right, Or ifyou came from a very different cast background,
or if you came from a sortof different social strata or from a
sort of difference, you know.I think these are sort of dynamics that
(35:05):
becomes so much harder when you knowthe sort of background of the person who's
having which is why man in everyparty a new place, you know,
and that's running away from the problem. And I acknowledge that, I think,
but in these times running aways issometimes the only sort of solution in
the short term, but in thelong term, I think these are challenges
that need to be addressed, andI think the only way of doing that
(35:28):
is being very upfront of that communicationand saying that this is unacceptable. Yeah.
I wonder if we can all striveto bring some of the energy of
young love in Paris, young andanonymous love in Paris into all our relationships
where you kind of do everything youcan to minimize power differentials. If there
is a power differential, at leastthe impact of that on the way both
(35:51):
parties interact and love kindness, lovewith exactly, love with kindness and equality.
Yeah, yeah, I think that'sa wonderful not to wrap up on
an exit, Well, I couldsit here and talk for five hours,
probably probably not over time already,but this was so much fun. This
was very very lovely. Thank youso much for having me and what a
fun chat. Thanks so much,Annie, it's been so much fun chatting
(36:15):
and thank you for tuning into LoveMatters, produced by the Indian Express and
DW, Germany's international broadcaster. Ihope that you enjoyed this episode. Please
share it with your friends and family. Please feel free toly like, share,
subscribe it more, yes, exactlywhat he said, Leave a comment,
Tell your friends. Email us atLovematters at DW dot com. If
(36:37):
you feel like reading all the emails, please forward until next time. This
is me these I'm under us andI believe Love Matters
Popular Podcasts
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com